Open 588 Pick Your Poison -- Game Over

[Drezi]

TTH ABR, and Lalendra, and my townread on Nacho was based on him not hammering, but it looks like he wasn't here at all, so I'd need to rethink that especially if he happened to do it suddenly now.

[Drezi]

Why ABR & TTH?

That's like my whole day's worth of posts.

[Drezi]

Great, you're free to accompany my lone vote on ABR.

[Drezi]

In my opinion he's not. You can just vig ika.

[Drezi]

If house happened to turn out to be conftown I might go along with ika, but would still prefer ABR.

[Drezi]

Right now nothing really changed apart from him asking "what if".

[Drezi]

It's what YOU want to, and can do if we lynch scum - without it losing us the game. And with a potential House conftown ika scum wouldn't be as unlikely as now, since now my ika!town theory requires scum wagoning him.

[Drezi]

That was me being confident you're scum, especially with thinking House is the IC at that time.

[Drezi]

Ok, I've reread stuff.

VOTE: Nacho

[Drezi]

Will post why tomorrow, off to sleep now.

[Drezi]

Alright, so with ika being confirmed scum, looking at the overall game, I think Nacho is the last scum.

D2 we had Nacho coming in and trashing the ika wagon, and starting the counter on NJAC, ABR joined, and it gained heat from that point.

The saddest reality is that the vote I liked most on that wagon was ABR because he was honest about it and didn't dress it up with bullshit.

My impression at the time was that he simply went ahead to save a scumbuddy, simply because he could afford to do so, so whynot? He also gave a soft townread to ABR along the way, because again, at that point in time, it was a perfectly safe and neutral thing to do.

D3 he still liked my proposed ika!vig possibility, and tried to avoid going down the ika lynch way, after ABR introduced the Lalendra angle, Nacho was also asking around about Lalendra, if we thought she could be scum etc.

I need Nacho.

I don't think Drezi is scum.

But why? Drezi can definitely be scum. There are some town posts but what before then?

This looks like ABR to a scumbuddy being like "yo, we could def get Drezi lynched, you high mate?"

It was right after this, that ABR abandoned pushing Lal/me and voted ika, and afterwards Nacho made 1359 and started leaning towards and ika lynch too, him dropping the Lal angle aswell. This was where they decided that "well k, we bus". Nacho was also a bit too confident in my being town tbh, I think he wanted to have me as someone who'd vote someone else over him in the end.
He started this day on a tone that looked like "game solved ladies and gentlemen, vote away" but I haven't actually seen a case on Lalendra from him last day either, he just sortof agreed that yeah she's prob scum guys.


Also ika+Lalendra just doesn't feel right to me. If you look at ABR+ika interactions, we see that D1 acryon (ABR) pushed Dooku (ika) over that chatching up thing, probably wanted to get in some distancing, but it exploded. He still wasn't voting Dooku, ABR later voted him, but quickly changed his mind and jumped on the town wagon instead.
D2 he voted ika again, and after Nacho made the push on NJAC, ABR left the bussing wagon once again, and took the opportunity to vote town. D3 he tried to push me/Lal before going for ika. This is along the lines of what scum bussing would look like.

Lalendra on the other hand voted ika D1, voted him D2, voted him D3 and kept the vote and scumread pretty consistently ending every day there. Also we had ABR pushing me/Lalendra at first, and he only decided to bus when that angle didn't prove fruitful. I think at first he tried to get town lynched, and only resorted to bussing after that didn't work out.
Of course Lal could be scum and it just so happened that she never had to move her vote because someone else got lynched always, and it could be that Nacho just got it wrong, and defended ika D2 and happened to give ABR a soft-town, and they happened to shift their push to ika together by chance, but well it's too many assumptions and coincidences for my taste.

All in all, I think the whole game looks straightforward and makes most sense with Nacho!scum.

[Drezi]

why? I can't say anything here, waiting for Nacho.

[Drezi]

I've read the rules, and my not posting was not halting anything here, everyone is waiting for Nacho's reply before making a decision, or before we can ask more questions. While we had someone prod dodge and V/LA for the whole of D1 without much trouble and now we have that much less info on an important slot. Whatever. 48H have passed, I posted stuff, we're good.

[Drezi]

why? I can't say anything here, waiting for Nacho.

What do you think about the case against him?

What do I think about my own case? I think it makes sense, still, wanna see what he wanted to post, but couldn't get around to yet.

[Drezi]

why? I can't say anything here, waiting for Nacho.

What do you think about the case against him?

@Riabi: Actually, just in case, I'm gonna point out that there's a post 1474 by me, the votecount shortly after pushed it to last page.

@Nacho: Your last paragraph doesn't really relate to the quote above and ABR wasn't exactly defending ika anyway, so the whole argument about that is pointless, I think he just tried to get town lynched which would be perfectly normal in this situation.

He did make it riskier if ika got lynched since him and I would obviously be getting flak together, and he would get even more flak if I was lynched before him. So why didn't he worry about that in any way whatsoever?

And this just doesn't sound like town mindset tbh, this whole using yourself as possible scum to show how you think his play wouldn't have been optimal in that case, therefore you're not scum thing. The whole "calling you town" stuff is pretty wifom and null to me in the first place and not something major, so I don't agree that it makes it unlikely that you're scum together.

Basically you commented on like the weakest possible points only in a rather elaborate and lengthy manner, why? I don't want to derail into talking about these minor weak points, and getting strawmanned in the process. That's like the very definition of it.

[Drezi]

I'm not sure this is how that happened. From my memory, ABR introduced the Lalendra angle while we were in MyLo, you made a response to the effect of "I don't think she's scum, nobody's suspected her thus far" and I pointed out that this probably wasn't a good line of thought to take because of fast and tunnelvisioned days and all.

1257 was what I had in mind, my point was that Lalendra had been in a grey area and a good candidate for scum to get town to compromise on for a mislynch, so I don't like ABR's suggestion, and your post clearly suggests that you thought I should play around with the idea of her being scum.

I pointed out that ABR was already defending ika (which he was, he argued against ika being lynched or killed), which means that he would need to be more careful about interactions with his other partner because otherwise it means there's nothing he can do when ika inevitably dies.

But if that was the plan why would he start bussing ika instead making an awkward turn? As I said in my original post he simply looked for the easiest targets to mislynch, and started bussing when it didn't work.

No, his play would have been absolutely horrible to the point where it's a bit suspicious that he would put himself in that situation in the first place since it's horrible in a very obvious way. He has no real scum motivation to call me town if all that does is decrease the scumteam's chances of victory, which it obviously does.

Ok, and if you're scum with him, now it allowed you to make this (according to you) strong counterargument. Did his actions decrease scumteam's chances of victory then? This is just blowing this town comment way out of proportion, I'd like to see a case on Lalendra instead.

[Drezi]

after ABR introduced the Lalendra angle, Nacho was also asking around about Lalendra, if we thought she could be scum etc.

I'm not sure this is how that happened.

I did think you should consider that Lalendra might be scum. I fail to see how that suggestion was a poor one.

Who said anything about the suggestion being poor or not? I defended my original statement.

What awkward turn? Why did he start bussing ika initially?

I meant D3 going from not liking ika lynch due to random "jesus take the wheel " nature, which I agreed with btw, to bussing.

This seems convoluted and stupid, but maybe that's just me.

It's intended. It mirrors the weight I think your "I can't be scum with him because of this" point holds, since as I said it's not all that strong of a point as you make it out to be.

[Drezi]

Anyway, shouldn't your focus be on "hey Lalendra is the last scum *case here* vote her already omg" instead of "but pls i'm not scum just because of this stuff" here?

[Drezi]

I mean I see what I see for the overall game, and you need to make me see better stuff than that to make me change my vote (or show how fundamentally wrong I am with my line of thought, which has not been the case).

[Drezi]

I want to let TTH and Riabi read Nacho's replies.

[Drezi]

Obviously if I hammer nacho and he flips town,

I will be shot tonight

, and

town will lose

.

??

[Drezi]

yay \o/