Open 596: Mega PopCorn Mafia - Over

[MaxwellPuckett]

/confirm

Nacho, why do you think they posted that cat? It's mafia scheming, methinks. I'd vote them right now. Eight times.

[MaxwellPuckett]

I ship it.

[MaxwellPuckett]

We can't vote at all. It's not a lynching setup. c:

Flubber your avatar scared the living Mcnuggets out of me until I looked at it properly.

[MaxwellPuckett]

Wow that comment came out of nowhere. Who the heck are you talking about?

[MaxwellPuckett]

VOTE: enomis

No japanese emoticons in my town, bub.

(Thanks ArcAngel for clarifying)

[MaxwellPuckett]

Perpetual, you just spoke the unspoken rules! That's BLASPHEMY.

Also, enomis, you put that table right back down or I swear to the mafia gods that I will make you. This is a civilized establishment.

[MaxwellPuckett]

Alphabet game?

Also, no way we're doing that. I hate alphabets like I hate justice.

[MaxwellPuckett]

I can't believe I didn't realize that's what that was.

[MaxwellPuckett]

Good to know.

[MaxwellPuckett]

Nacho, what's that game plan you were talking about? Or is it just the 'wait six days for discussion until I start killing".

I agree that Nacho should wait, though. Asking him to shoot now because you want to be the gunbearer or whatever isn't going to work. I'm pretty sure he'd like to play a bit before making what could be his final post.

Mod, question: I know you can't post when you're dead. Does that mean that the shooter is prohibited from posting after they've taken their shot, as they don't know if they are alive or dead until their target flips? A Schrodinger's gunbearer situation, if you will.

[MaxwellPuckett]

Nacho didn't say they thought they were town. They just said that their response was not scum-indicative.

But anyways: Heartless is scum who doesn't want to be shot for silly reasons? If you say that's the reason for their post, (the original, angry one about the cat) then I disagree. Nacho's original posts were not a case against Heartless, even a silly one. There would be no need for scum to be afraid of being shot from those. Maybe overly-paranoid scum, but seriously, I just don't see it.

PEDIT: I think a flexible deadline would be fine. If, after three days or so, the thread stagnates, Nacho could easily threaten a shot to get talks back up.

[MaxwellPuckett]

Who's tth?

And I don't think there's any drama. Well, drama that needs to be ended. We did need material for talks.

PEDIT: I don't think they have a history. Heartless reaction just seemed like he'd seen similar situations before and wanted to stop things before they started. Nacho or Heartless could confirm.

Also, their interactions don't seem very confrontational.

[MaxwellPuckett]

@julien: I really, really doubt it was the cat picture thing.

That is a great sentence to say though.

@West9: There was a little bit of RVS. But now it looks like we have actual discussion going on, so it's not really necessary. Also, votes will be simply cosmetic throughout the whole game.

[MaxwellPuckett]

Bolded because I want ArcAngel9 to confirm:

About the win condition. Since scum has no night kill, they have to eliminate every townie. The 'or nothing can prevent the same' would be when there's one townie alive and at least one vengeful alive, right? Also, is it a tie when there's just a townie and a vengeful mafia left, or would that be a maf win?

In any case, I agree with Wanderer. Vengefuls are the priority target, because they have to be eliminated sometime and our chances are best if we do that at the beginning. Ofc shooting mafia in general is preferred, and I wouldn't know what differences in play there would be between vengefuls are regular maf.

[MaxwellPuckett]

Victor, I have to ask: Coyote has made a single post, and it was his confirmation. That's enough to make you want him shot?

[MaxwellPuckett]

I like CB's posts so far. Good town feelings from them.

Heartless' active scumhunting is also promising.

Enomis' shitposting was endearing but now I'm kinda yawning at it. I don't think it's scummy but I don't like it in general.

I think my only proper scumread at the moment is RedCoyote.


This game is interesting in that shooting mafia does not actually advance our win condition. It only does if we hit vengeful. But shooting town is bad, obviously, and there's a time limit. So the normal mafia are there as safe hits. I think this means the normal mafia will play less carefully, as CB said. I think the vengefuls will avoid risky posts. Of course me saying this might change all that, I don't know. If there are any actual differences between the playstyle of the different kinds of mafia, they will be very slight. I DO think this will matter endgame, though, just maybe not as much now, with so many players to sift through. For now, finding a safe shot for nacho is priority. (I'd count vengefuls as a safe shot of course)

[MaxwellPuckett]

@enomis: I don't like Coyote's 225. It seems like he realized he said something a bit scummy and wanted to backtrack to avoid someone doing that for him. I'd need to see more from him to actually advocate a shot, but right now I don't like him.

Also: The game isn't at a stage where I find inactivity scummy. I think the active players are a mix of scum and town, so activity-related arguments would be null.

[MaxwellPuckett]

West9: You're right, that last paragraph doesn't really say much. I was trying to say that late-game, there will be differences in playstyle for mafia goons and vengefuls. But even that isn't that useful, you're right, since the only thing we really need to worry about is 'don't hit town', rather than 'hit vengefuls'. In retrospect it's not very useful.

About Wanderer-nl: I kind of understand what Wanderer is saying right now, but I think she means 'in a previous game, I was told I was dropping too many towntells, aka trying too hard to look town, so I'm going to attempt to tone that down this game". It was worded really badly and doesn't make sense without this context, I think. Wanderer, am I correct, or did I misinterpret?

[MaxwellPuckett]

pablito: Sorry, completely missed that one. I like that system you alluded to, actually. It makes it extremely difficult for scum to twist their earlier words to mean something else later, as it makes it very clear what their thought process is. If implemented, we would all have to do it, though: perhaps with some kind of template that is used to open and close a case on another player, like in that example you quoted. Using it, you would accuse someone as scum (a serious accusation, you are suggesting to the gunbearer to shoot this person), give your case, and launch a discussion where other players have to give their opinions on the current case. This would also mean that scum would have to make a decision about where to take the case. If it's against their fellow scum, they can't be wishy washy then decide to bus at the last second in an effort to look town, and if they push too hard, they may sway town in an unfavourable way and get their scumbuddy lynched. It would put them on edge and make them more likely to slip up, in addition to giving lots of ammo to catch them in a lie.

TL-DR: Good idea.

[MaxwellPuckett]

Enomis: yes, I believe that Coyote didn't realize who the gunbearer was. I actually took his post mentioning sheeping nacho as a joke, until the one where he mentioned how accidentally slimy that was.

[MaxwellPuckett]

Also: would that be considered Nacho's preliminary short list? If so, I'd like to try that case-by-case thing. Still like the idea.

[MaxwellPuckett]

Its hard to have more when he doesn't have very many posts. S'why I said he's just a scumread and not someone I would shoot just yet.

Anyone genuinely trying to figure things out right now is a town read for me: CB, Wanderer, enomis (I like his 301). I'm on mobile at the moment and reading back is a pain, so these are off the top of my head. Coyote's only action so far was to attempt to cover what he thought was a scummy post. I want to examine everyone properly when I get a chance, on my laptop, later.

[MaxwellPuckett]

Mmk, now that I've actually looked at everyone:

CB: Still town. Seems to be genuinely trying to figure out people. I agree about the mafia knowing their win condition. It's in the role PMs in the first post, and with 7 scum, the chances of none of them picking up on that are nonexistent. I don't agree with the thought that vengeful goons would try and be less conspicuous, though. Coasting, especially early game, is a quick way to get shot. And, like I said, I don't believe that activity really indicates alignment. It just indicates interest/playstyle.

deep-city-lights: I think her wanting a faster game with less stagnation is a null tell. Once again it just indicates personal preference. I don't like the fact that she just refused to answer vonflare's question. Why did you ask to be shot, dcl?

enomis: Lots of silly posts, but the recent ones, especially disagreeing with me about Coyote scumtell, are alright. Null leaning town for now I guess.

Heartless: Not much to say about this one, but similarly to CB seems to be trying to figure out stuff. Points for calling the conftown 'ding dong'. I haven't made up my mind here, though.

julien: I dislike their jumping on Wanderer. Well, not jumping, but you know. I disagree with the suggestion (Wanderer's) that our votes indicate the shot (as julien said, this is easier for scum to influence), but it was just that, a suggestion. What I also disagree with is julien saying to just follow the gunbearer. Now THAT is something that is easier for scum to influence, it's just one person. Scum.

Lucky: I didn't think Lucky's 104 was scummy, but I dislike their 115. Similar to my Coyote read: scum covering their butts. Still want to see more. Lucky, if you're reading, give some reads.

pablito: Haven't decided how I feel here. Pablito, what are you current feelings about Wanderer, then? Does your town-julien read have anything to do with their suspicion of Wanderer?

Perpetual Nonsense: They speak like the King from Katamari and it throws me off. Perpetual, does your shared mind suspect CB or not?

RedCoyote: Scum lean as explained earlier. Give opinions on the game please.

Victor: Don't like, but doesn't feel like scum. More like super lazy town. It's probably the brazen votes with no written reasoning that makes me think this slot is town. Want to see some more actual content so I can make a read that is less gut-based.

vonflare: A lot of posts, but those lots of posts were mostly defending vonflare's own actions. However, almost all of the defense posts were prompted by questions about the readslist and such so I can excuse them. Null. Please comment on the game itself!

Wanderer: I like their saying that they want to shoot an active rather than an inactive. I agree.

West9: Similarly to my other town reads, West seems to be trying to figure out thought-processes, which is a town-motivated thing to do.

Flubber, millar, Jeanne, I literally have nothing to say except: post something substantial.



Ugh, I still think that active players are a mix of scum and town and I want an active shot. My only active scumread is julien. I need to give Wanderer, Heartless, CB, vonflare, and pablito another look. I think I messed up somewhere in there.

[MaxwellPuckett]

Read what I said about Vic. Then read it again. Maybe read it once more? Votes with no explanation make my gut think town. That's literally it, and it's not a substantial read at all. I had no gut feelings either way for the three of ya I put down at the bottom.

No, I don't think scum can hold the gun, obviously. I'm saying that it's more difficult for scum to influence a whole bunch of votes (a lotta people to influence), and it is much easier to influence a single person, ie the gunbearer. There are a large number of scum right now, so it only takes a few townies suggesting a shot that happens to be town for the scum to see and agree with, thereby creating a lean on that person for the shot. Also, scum can choose the gunbearer, remember? They indirectly control the shot (obviously not nacho's, but every shot after that), so it's more dangerous to just follow the gunbearer's lead, as that gunbearer's lead is geared towards what the scum wants, especially if the gunbearer is left to their own devices and town is afraid to argue with them.

Basically, I'm saying that is has to be a discussion, not done by majority vote and definitely not by just following the gunbearer.

[MaxwellPuckett]

If I felt Maxwell was pure town, I'd've wanted Maxwell to actually try to implement something. But I don't get the sense that Maxwell wants that. So prove me wrong Maxwell and force everyone to look at certain players through some type of referendum or focused-voting system.

@Maxwell regarding julienvonwolfe. Tell me again where you read that julien says that we ought to follow the gunbearer? I assume you're reading post #237, but if you could read it again for me and tell me where you read that, I'd appreciate it.

@Maxwell - also please explain this:

Also, scum can choose the gunbearer, remember? They indirectly control the shot (obviously not nacho's, but every shot after that), so it's more dangerous to just follow the gunbearer's lead, as that gunbearer's lead is geared towards what the scum wants, especially if the gunbearer is left to their own devices and town is afraid to argue with them.

Basically, I'm saying that is has to be a discussion, not done by majority vote and definitely not by just following the gunbearer.

About julienvonwolfe:

Here our friend Wanderer proposes normal mafia playing techniques (voting, lynching those with the most votes) as if they are incredibly useful scum hunting techniques. I'll admit that there's a reason that we use them in every other game, just about, as getting people to state their opinions is good for town, but I don't like the suggestion that we coerce (or constrain, perhaps) the gunbearer.

From my perspective, the gunbearer is confirmed town, and any majority opinion of players will include scum joining and maybe even steering the wagon. I trust the gunbearer more than the collective will of the players, in other words.

The bolded is what I was referring to, particularly the last sentence. At the time I took it as julien saying that we should just follow the gunbearer, instead of taking into account other player's thoughts.
However, I've now read julien's 331, and I think I may have reacted too quickly to what they were saying about wanderer. Explained like that, their thought process makes more sense.

Speaking of wanderer: I think their suggestion makes sense considering they're never played a nightless, lynchless game before, and they maybe haven't thought about the different style of play needed for it.

About 329: I'm saying that we can't just let the gunbearer (besides nacho, who was chosen so early it isn't a problem, though obviously we should still discuss with him too) make decisions entirely on their own, because they were chosen by the mafia for a reason, perhaps because they had a strong scumread on a townie, or townreads on vengefuls, etc, etc. It was in response to what I thought julien was saying about how we should handle the gunbearer.

Finally, pablito: That voting system. I like it. You suggested it. I kind of expected you to try and implement it too. Why are you not doing that?

When you suggested it, you were looking for opinions or better ideas than your own, right? And I agreed with your idea, so naturally I should be the one to 'force' everyone else to go along with it too? First: what? And second: It's not something that can be forced. Everyone has to agree, or at least the majority needs to agree, before something can be done.

Nacho: How do you feel about pablito's suggestion? If anyone can lead that off the ground, it'd be you, and I think it's something we can do.

Everyone:

Same question.

[MaxwellPuckett]

Millar's reaction to Flubber's vote was bad.

Flubber's recent posts: Enough for me to say something about him. I didn't think the earlier ones were worth commenting on, but the recent stuff, particularly 359, give town vibes. I think it's that Flubber is challenging Heartless' view on his reads.

Millar's most recent post (posts..) also made me laugh. I love how hostile they got after Flubber voted them. I'd say that's scummy but it just seems so... what's the word? it seems like terrible scumplay, so I can only assume millar is scum who doesn't really care how they appear, or millar is just town. Im leaning the second one, but maybe that's just cause I don't think a millar shot is a helpful. If they're scum, they're not vengeful, and if they're town, I don't want them holding a gun.

[MaxwellPuckett]

RedCoyote: You would shoot hydras? For being hydras? Also, you're saying you agree with millar's "I got a feeling?", about shooting dcl? I don't mean about your read on dcl, I mean millar's lack of any actual reason.

I actually like this post of yours, but those two points do not make any sense to me.

Unrelated: Happy birthday!

[MaxwellPuckett]

Heartless, I've said repeatedly that I do not want to shoot an inactive at this time. As I haven't made my mind up about Millar, I don't want to risk the possibility of him being town and having the gun. I think the possibility of him being town or non-vengeful scum is a lot higher than of him being vengeful, so I really don't think a shot is worth it.

I like RedCoyote's post because it gives me town vibes, because he's finally contributing to the game. I don't agree with a lot of his arguments though, such as the two points I pointed out, as well as his reasoning for the julien read. I can read him as town while not agreeing with his arguments. The fact that he's asking about the previous Popcorn game Nacho mentioned, as well as his reasoning for the vonflare townread, stand out to me as pretty towny. Also, Coyote's catchup was just that, a catchup. It's not comprehensive, it's a mixture of reads and questions he needs to ask. It doesn't come off as forced to me at all.

It's nice how you keep bring up how much I /love/ that post of his, though. God forbid my opinion differs from yours!

Speaking of hydras, I'm fine with playing with them, but I have problems when they don't sign their posts. It's hard to understand a person's thought process when you don't know which one is speaking, and it's easy for me to misinterpret two people speaking as one person who keeps changing their mind.

[MaxwellPuckett]

@Heartless: A tad? You call 8 scumreads! How are you going to pick one of them out to 'vote' for shooting down?

So far I haven't really seen any reasons to suspect Wanderer that I agree with. They're all related to their saying that they've never played a setup like this, and are not sure on how to proceed. What exactly is strange about that? Is voicing the truth now too scummy to do? I've never played a nightless either, that's why I was asking so many questions about the setup and win conditions near the beginning of the day.

If I'm wrong and there is a reason to suspect Wanderer that isn't what I described above, I just don't see it.

[MaxwellPuckett]

Which of you is typing is not obvious to me.

Also, that quote from Wanderer in my last post was accidental. It shouldn't have had the quote in it.

[MaxwellPuckett]

Why are you this quick to give activity townpoints when you want to shoot an active player?

I might be handing out townpoints too easily, you're right. Obviously I need to seriously reevaluate my play so far. Which I will do tomorrow cause I'm tired.

If I had a gun right now, my shot would be Heartless. But I wouldn't take that shot today, see above.

[MaxwellPuckett]

pablito: I'm a bit confused. You said you expected more from me than from Wanderer, which, while flattering(?), does not make much sense to me. I've never played a game with you before, and Wanderer has considerably more games than me. This is my first non-Newbie on the site, ie my third game. Are you saying that you've read up on both of us, and think I'm the better player, or did you think I had a strong start in this game, while Wanderer did not, and now I'm not living up to your initial expectations?

As for my thinking Millar is not vengeful: Lazy play. There's a difference between laziness and lurking, and there it is. Millar is currently bored with the game, and that makes me think town or vanilla maf, not vengeful. I believe vengefuls would be doing more to avoid being the shot. Doing things that don't involve blatantly saying that Flubber will be the shot, for instance. I don't think a Millar shot is worth it.

But, apparently Nacho is avoiding Vengefuls, and would like to be shooting in inactives for that reason. I guess I can understand that, as Nacho wants to stay alive and be more useful, it's just the opposite of what I'd like to do. But since I haven't been able to propose an active shot of my own, I guess I can't blame anyone for going the inactive route. So, considering that, I guess Millar is as good a shot as any? But I'll look at Wanderer's proposals right now.

[MaxwellPuckett]

Ah, I misread, those aren't Wanderer's proposals. They're just her commenting on Nacho's shot choices.

[MaxwellPuckett]

RedCoyote: I'd recommend actually catching up. 416 just seems like a terrible post to make as scum. You're admitting your laziness, which I guess would be fine if you did more after that, but according to 444 you don't seem to care? You still lean town to me because I can't imagine where your baseless confidence would be coming from as scum. That and apparently Nacho knows your play well? Nacho, how well would you say you know Coyote's play?

Lucky: There's nothing here.

Wanderer: Wanting to prioritize keeping Nacho alive instead of weeding out vengefuls... I don't like it. I think Nacho hitting a vengeful is a victory, even if it means scum will give the gun to a lurker probably. Once all Vengefuls are dead, we win, we literally win. I just can't get behind trying to shoot goons first. I still don't think there's a surefire way to determine what kind of scum someone is, but I do think we will be able to tell by lategame, as we'll have more posts to look at and the stakes for scum will be much higher. Goons that didn't care about being shot in the beginning would be much more protective of themselves lategame, etc.

I think Wanderer's play has been fine so far. No contradictions, no laziness, just scumhunting. Their play just seems very towny and genuine, I'll grab quote examples if prompted but you can see it just by reading her posts. I still don't know why she's being scumread. Julien's reasoning was Wanderer saying she's never played a game like this before, and I've already said why I think that's a bull reason, in an earlier post. Also, being null on the lurkers is reason for scumread??? How are you supposed to read lurkers except superficially?

Anyways, I really disgaree with Wanderer as the shot because I think she's useful town. But I don't agree with any of these three players being the shot, either... Lucky is null and buhhhh but I'm glad he's in the list because maybe it'll prompt him to post something, finally, and Red is null lean town because if he were scum his play makes no sense to me, and he's not a new player so I can't just slap 'bad scumplay' on him and call it a day.

If Lucky is the shot, I see no reason why Millar and Jeanne aren't just as likely candidates. I guess you can differentiate them by saying that Jeanne wanted to be shot, which I still don't understand, but between Millar and Lucky I see no difference.

[MaxwellPuckett]

Oh, right.

Mod, I'll be V/LA for the weekend.

[MaxwellPuckett]

Victor: Don't laugh but I actually though you seriously wanted to shoot RedCoyote at the beginning there. It didn't look like RVS to me.

pablito: No, we can't force people to use the referendum system without at least a majority agreement. Shooting people who don't agree with my playstyle is not how I play mafia, and it wouldn't work anyways.

deep-city-lights: Sorry to see ya go, but if the game isn't for you it's not for you.

[MaxwellPuckett]

So, the Lucky shot. I already said how I feel about it. Nacho, if you say Lucky's meta spells a scumread for you, then it's your choice. I can't comment on that reason since I've never played with Lucky. I do think playstyle for this game will differ from other games, it's definitely a nonstandard one, so I hope you're keeping that in mind.

Vonflare shot: Better than a Lucky shot in my opinion. I wish he'd post as much as he did early game. Wouldn't mind him having the gun either, infinitely better than a lurker with a gun (though Vonflare might be falling into lurking, too). The fact that his posting has gone down so drastically is sus, and I expect him to pick it up a bit now that Nacho has put him as his top shot candidate. Yea on that shot.

CB Townread: Yep, yep, yep.

Wanderer shot: I don't agree at all. I've said plenty about why, too. Wanderer with the gun is something I could get behind, but not at the cost of Nacho. Nay on that shot.

Wanderer Townread: Good.

[MaxwellPuckett]

Okay Um.

RedCoyote is accusing you of being scum. So they are picking apart your behaviour in order to show why they are scumreading you/provide more evidence to that fact.

He's not poking you with a stick to get you to growl, and he's certainly not being a dick.


But I'll put that aside for a sec, because you really need to calm down. tth, or Antihero I... look I know one of you is the one that doesn't use capitals and I could read up a bit to remember which one that is but I don't care enough.

The phrase "stupid-ass righteous indignation" is interesting though. The fact that you think RedCoyote can have 'righteous indignation" implies that you don't think he's scum.

EDIT: Okay it looks like the majority of this post doesn't really apply now, I guess you're calm enough. That raging was kinda bleh though.

[MaxwellPuckett]

Battery died while writing up this post, blagh.

I'm lazy and going to sleep soon so whatever. Wanderer, I disagree with that first quote in your post about enomis seeming forced. What do you believe he was trying to accomplish with it, though? Do you think he was trying to buddy RC?

At the end of the post you seem to scumread RC as well, so... do you think they're a team or do you think one of them is buddying? If so, which one?

[MaxwellPuckett]

Forgot to put this is the last one too: Don't think Heartless was fake-raging, never did.

[MaxwellPuckett]

Not quoting because mobile and lazy but, RC, do you think Heartless is scum or not? In that post above, you say "when I thought you were scum" to Heartless, meaning you don't think he's scum. Then you pointed to one of Heartless' post and said that this was textbook scum behavior, to the point that you would use it as an example. And then you said you would never, ever shoot anyone on Nacho's list.

What I'm getting from this is that you are still scumreading Heartless, but have decided to trust Nacho's reads completely. Doesn't that ring badly to you?

Nacho was already wrong once. While that doesn't mean all of his reads are wrong, far from it, it does make me wonder why you are trusting him so much. You've been doing it all game and I honestly still don't understand.

[MaxwellPuckett]

Welcome, Feirei. Looking forward to hearing your take on the game so far.

[MaxwellPuckett]

@Wanderer: I simply decided my earlier townread was better and stronger.

But is that townread harder and faster?



Victor, who is it specifically that you want to hear from? You said no to Heartless, so who is it you want to talk to/answer questions? (Besides Vonflare)

Besides Von, a Heartless shot would make me happy, because I kinda don't know how to feel about him and that uncertainty is better dealt with now, when we have a buffer, than later. Also if they're town I think they'll make a good GB. But Von is better than a read I'm unsure about.

I'm kinda bleh on the active-shooting only thing now. Endgame is where we'll need the best GB, and we'll need to deal with lurking scum at some point.

My best shot choice right now is Jeanne. Post now, or forever hold your peace. "There is no cops" is my second choice because that post of his was just so endearing.

And finally, about Julien: My intial scumread was misguided, as I've said. About their 531, specifically their comment on Victor.. I don't think that's reason for a scumread. I also missed that 'scumslip' that was pointed out, and only realized it after two people had commented. The fact that Victor didn't see it immediately either, but agreed with it after, seems totally feasible to me. Null here, I'd put him at Heartless-level in terms of how much I want him shot, I guess.

Not enthusiastic about either of those shots anyways, I think Jeanne is the best one here for her award in 'Posting Literally Nothing, Ever'.

[MaxwellPuckett]

And why would you shoot CB? Seriously. Anyone is better than CB.

[MaxwellPuckett]

I agree that PN's read is full of shit, but I don't think it's because he wants to dissuade others from shooting him by looking like a terrible person to have a gun in his hands. I think he's just trying to look like he's thinking critically by shooting CB, who no one (except PN apparently) suspects. Basically I don't believe the plan is that complex, PN was just grasping for a read. So yeah, PN shot is great. Vonflare shot is still great.

After that, though, I don't think the lurkers should just be avoided. There's scum in there too, obviously.

[MaxwellPuckett]

That shot came out of nowhere. There were plenty of much more useful flips like... any of them. Besides most of the lurker flips but... well whatever.

Pab now has the gun, which is about the only good thing to come out of this situation. Victor obviously thought he wouldn't die, though, he even told the mod he'd be V/LA for a few days.

[MaxwellPuckett]

I think Pab just said they are not posting their shootlist yet, lol.

Anyways, about Nacho's idea of a Do Not Shoot list... I just think it's a bad idea. Especially one made that early in the game. Nacho made that list with zero flips, so he had the least information out of any GBs. Declaring some people 'town forever' and just leaving it at that is lazy, and disregards later information, or flips, that could come up.

[MaxwellPuckett]

No, I agree with some of them. I think you're town, wanderer, as well as RC and CB.

I'm saying that just staying with those reads 'because Nacho said so' is a bad idea, and ignores new information. I didn't ever say they were bad reads.

So Wanderer, does that mean you also think we should never, ever shoot anyone on that list?

[MaxwellPuckett]

Sure, if you get 4 people to treat as town for the whole game, and they're town, we're golden. But declaring those four before any flips? Not gonna work. You can win almost any mafia game if you can pick a group of people as 'for sure town'. It's just too difficult to actually do effectively, and if scum is one of those four, we're done. Well, not done, I think you can still win in that case, but only because you would realize that the numbers were off once it got to end-game.

[MaxwellPuckett]

You can make good posts and be off of your reads. Leadership as the gunbearer can only get you so far, since it all comes down to the shot. If your reads and his are different, then which ones are you going to go with? You can't go through mafia just agreeing with the 'strong' players all the time.

[MaxwellPuckett]

Ugh, okay, that last post of mine was a stream of thoughts thing and I really should have put quotes from Flubber in there so the damn thing makes sense. Whatever, I hate doing that on my phone.

[MaxwellPuckett]

You hoped to never be named... town? Or.. vs. Heartless? Or what?

[MaxwellPuckett]

Town: Wanderer-nl. Their posts are always full of thoughts about a great deal of players. It's hard to explain, though, they're just very genuine, lots of questioning the actions of other players, and they always give reasons for what they're doing and how they're feeling, even if it doesn't always have to do with who is shot. Best town read I have right now.

Other town: CB and RC. CB for their whole game so far, check 695. RC, I don't really agree with what he's saying, about Nacho and Heartless and whatnot, but I also think he's town. Also 783.

Coyote putting away his scumread on Heartless because of Nacho's D1 reads is... weird, but Coyote kinda worships the guy (Nacho) so it fits with the rest of his play.

[MaxwellPuckett]

Vonflare and PN are good shots, as has been said ad nauseam. I don't think West should be in that list though, same with Enomis.

[MaxwellPuckett]

Welcome to the game, Suzune!

Welcome to the game, person who will eventually replace Jeanne!

[MaxwellPuckett]

No one shoot this slot.

Off-topic, Suzune: Can you PM me about that Kira game? I'm interested.

[MaxwellPuckett]

My 'no one shoot this slot' was saying that I think her opening posts are towny. I think it's going too far to say she's super-confirmed town, or even my strongest townread. It was just an exaggerated way of saying I liked her opening post, I didn't mean for it to come off as anything besides that.

I said I don't think they should be in the list there because the others in it are much better options. I'll go into more detail tomorrow, they're not exactly town-reads and I don't think their play is at a level where I want them considered to be shot in the same way that PN, Von, Millar, Lucky, etc. are being considered. I don't find them particularly scummy.

What town topics have West and enomis ignored?

[MaxwellPuckett]

Nice table. But Suzune should definitely be in my townreads section, same level as CB and RC. And now I'm actually going to sleep, I'll try my hand at poking the hornet's nest tomorrow.

[MaxwellPuckett]

Prodge: I'll be back Sunday evening. No need to declare V/LA with that timespan.

[MaxwellPuckett]

Really sorry for the lack of activity recently. I noticed the mod posted some kind of rule change regarding the win-condition, and that the shot is still being discussed, but my head is killing me and I'm not gonna sit here and type longer than I have to. I've been like this since yesterday but hopefully tomorrow I'll be alright. It comes and goes so I'll try to be on during a dry-spell if things are still shit tomorrow.

[MaxwellPuckett]

I don't remember if there was a question I'm supposed to answer. I didn't see anything while rereading but I miss shit all the time so if you were waiting for me to respond to something, please ask again, sorry.

Anyways, Heartless' list is decent, but only vonflare and PN are scum on it, I think. Lucky maybe, at least Lucky is better than a Millar shot. West9 and Titus are fine. I can't remember who Titus replaced but if it's one of the lurkers I really don't care, I don't think Titus is scum.

Also: How does removing Flubber from the scumpool make everything 'fit together'? What's fitting together? What interactions make Flubber so utterly incompatible with the rest of your list? Maybe I'm biased because I dislike Flubber personally, especially his apology, but I don't want to get into that because the matter is settled and I don't want to start anything.

What exactly does 'hydra hijacked' even mean? Someone ON the hydra did.. something? I don't understand.

[MaxwellPuckett]

I think everyone agrees that this game has really been stretching, and I ended up dropping out of things D3, too. I should be trying harder to get hyped about this game, and I'm pretty sure having the gun will help out with that, but I shouldn't look forward to getting shot because I'd kinda feel like an ass.

I've also been sick, but that was only for a few days and day 3 has bren happening for way longer than that.

Anyways, the shortlist is enomis, von, myself, and PN, yeah? Von and PN, those are your scum, how many times does it need to be said by... Like everybody? I appreciate that you're being thorough, Pab, but the most beneficial thing to our discussion right now is a flip, so let's get one happening.

Questions to me: Pablito, you wanted to know why Millar instead of Lucky way back when, right? For a shot I think. At the time, I really didn't care. Lurkers are lurkers and there was no difference between the two. Of course this was before Lucky's awesome chat with nacho that somehow convinced him he wasn't scum.

[MaxwellPuckett]

Sorry, Heartless, you asked me about Titus too.

She's town for lots of reasons, in fact I dare you to quote a suspect post, besides her recent "put me on the shortlist", thing, which really doesn't work. Players wanting others to comb their play and try to find something scummy never rings good for me, though she didn't say that was her intention. But besides that one, which she made before I stated my town read (though she's still town), all her posts are fine. She suggested the shortlist thing that is currently being used, though I think Pablito was already doing that. However, Titus doesn't read through whole games when she replaces in, so I still think its a fresh suggestion.

She reads confident and she's pretty transparent. She's not hiding anything because she has nothing to hide.