Open 601: Diffusion of Power (Game Over)

[wgeurts]

VOTE: Aneninen
Obviously bussing his scum partner Insanity.

[wgeurts]

If MathDino doesn't Obv town by page two I'm going to have to lynch him.

[wgeurts]

I've also been wondering what's stopping us from all claiming, we can build up a tonne of obv-towns.
Like, if a Day 1 doctor claims doc and ask for a day 1 cop. Then the doc will die whatever that night, but that's not a huge loss as they'd be VT for the rest of the game anyway.
Plus the scum are forced to kill the doc otherwise they basically let an IC alive.

Anyway, Mathdino.
Goal met.
You're town.

[wgeurts]

Anyway.
Everyone should claim Cop or Doc. Then once everyone has claimed we'll do what Mathdino said.
However I suggest doc's always claim the day before the night they activate.
Then if a doc has claimed on the night a cop can target, then that cop should claim and draw the target.
If the cop dies we know the doc was lying.
Huzza

[wgeurts]

I'm a night 1 doc

Discuss.
Also IC wasn't the right term, "more likely than otherwise town" would have been better.

[wgeurts]

It wouldn't, however if a cop claims now at least his result is secured or if he dies I get lynched as conf-scum the next day.

[wgeurts]

Popcorn Insanity

[wgeurts]

I already said they should only claim the night before if a doc that can take action that night has also already claimed. So I agree that you shouldn't claim the full role, I did so as mines next night.

If you're a night-1 cop claim

[wgeurts]

I know they wouldn't target my target, hence the cops survival for that night is a guarantee.

[wgeurts]

Well MarioManiac, you're in good hands!
If you die tonight feel free to lynch me tommorow, I'll self vote if needed.

[wgeurts]

Just claim role type all, not night until the day before your night if your a doc and only if a doc has claimed if yer a cop.
Waiting for insanity to do her popcorn:

[wgeurts]

Info dump, MathDino is town.
Insanity is looking dodgy for resisting claims.

[wgeurts]

I am a doctor. Popcorn to: you have any ideas

In case you haven't noticed, I am

not

resisting claims. But your idea of having doctors or cop for that matter claim the day before is flawed.

What happens if somebody claims Night X Doc and then nobody claims to be that night's cop? That's the doc for a night outted for what benefit?

As doctor that then would become a VT dying is better than a potential later cop dying. I think this is better than taking a potshot at blocking the kill.

[wgeurts]

@Soft-Spoken
At first I didn't know if anyone would join it leaving me in a dangerous position as only claimed player, but once the prospect of the claim started to grow I did so to get the ball rolling.

[wgeurts]

I will laugh my ass off if this is the real setup

Check out the wiki Diffusion Of Power, it is.

As for Rebus, double doc is possible according to the setup. I'm still targeting the first claimed cop though, if there's a second night 1 cop they should claim. If nobody does you should use the protection on someone you think is town, and say it in thread so we know yout scum if they flip.

[wgeurts]

There's an 8% chance actually, anyway Reubus you target yhai.

[wgeurts]

Well if they shoot someone else so what insanity?
We have 2 cops that will make it to day 2 with results guaranteed, that's less risky than letting everyone take a random shot at someone.

[wgeurts]

Mate, I'm no RNGod

[wgeurts]

Me?

[wgeurts]

I agree with it actually.
One way or another we'll get one/two confirmed town. Except if they're both scum.
Which would require another cop sorting one of the two later game.

[wgeurts]

Right,
Now enough night talk.
VOTE: MetalCyanide

[wgeurts]

(Restarted RVS)
Enough setup talk

[wgeurts]

Marcrell lurks and gets prodded a lot as scum, speaking as a mod that modded his game.
VOTE: Marcrell
It's a better vote than cyanide, and ask for the meta and I'll provide.

[wgeurts]

^^^^
What kind of crumpets is this?

[wgeurts]

Not Mafia through shade over a public scum-read (me) and voted an unlikely target (a scum tactic often used to appear scum-hunting) but I need to ponder wether its genuine or not. And 7am is not the time for that.
If this is true we should keep the old plan, except the other doc claim should randomly pick between NM and RS. I'll protect the other.
NM should then target me to clear the doubt people have. Or any of the other docs really, as long as one targets me and the others each other.

[wgeurts]

Threw, dammit auto-correct.

[wgeurts]

That's also fine, I was just pondering wether it's worth deterring the mafia from targeting either slightly. Or at least having a 50% chance of blocking it if they do.
So
The first two cops cross inspect.
I'll protect mario, you do NM or the other. Whatever
NM inspects me.

[wgeurts]

You is the other doc, I'm tired.

[wgeurts]

Ah, yes the meta.
Let me go fetch that game.

It's good for NM to inspect me (or the other doc) as then we either have a conf-town without abilities (meaning scum would have to waste a kill on them letting a town PR live) or we have a conf-scum (and if NM is lying we just lynch him after his targets flip shows up town).
I prefer the target to be me as I know I'm town and there's suspicion on me, however the other doc is also fine.

[wgeurts]

Ah, I remembered the game incorrectely. UNVOTE: Marcrell

[wgeurts]

It would clear me as town or confirm him as scum, those are the only possibilities.
Unless we're both scum, but whatever.
How is that ignorance?

The game is was speaking about is lunatic asylum c9++, I'll fetch the link.

[wgeurts]

And I unvoted NM as I was scum reading his slot to my mistaken marcrell meta, as my reasons where invalid there was no reason to stay on the wagon.

[wgeurts]

I don't have a read on him.
I need to reread as I've been buisy with exams.

[wgeurts]

Lol, I'm not considering myself conf-town.
I also openely said that NM can target the other doc if he want if people suspect we're partners together.
But wait, maybe both docs and NM are scum?

Somewhere we need to draw the line, one thing is sure. A cop claim innocent makes it "a lot more likely" that someone is town. Whoever it is.
If we're going to have paranoia on every cop claimed result we will gain almost nothing from then until they flip. Which is what I said.

As for unvoting Marcrell.
If I have no reason to scum read someone, then my vote is not needed there.
Period.

Going to do that reread I've promised myself as I've finished learning for exams.

[wgeurts]

My iPod's autocorrect loves the word then it seems

[wgeurts]

I'm sorry where have I said confirmed town apart from that one mistake early game?

[wgeurts]

I'm constantly speaking of more likely town.

[wgeurts]

Then I said, unless you think we are both mafia.
NM as town cop saying I'm inno makes me town.
NM scum saying I'm inno makes me town.
Unless you think we're both scum.
These are the only possibilities.

[wgeurts]

As I'm continuing my reread I just want to say MarioManiac has had the most opportunistic voting pattern so far:

Mario:

-Votes MathDino (2nd, RVS)
-Unvotes MathDino (1 Person)
-Votes SC (2nd)
-Votes Marcrell (3rd) off SC (2 People)
All without strong reasoning.

Pr-edit:
Soon enough, I'm at page 6 and I'll only summarise my thoughts once I'm confiden in them and where they are up to date.
Want to say that MathDino and Insanity are strong town though and that Kyndy looks like mislynch bait, however may possibly be scum if mario is.

[wgeurts]

Oh yeah, I've also come to the conclusion soft-spoken is likely town.

[wgeurts]

And of the claims Reubus swagrid's seems the most dodgy, he lurked for a while then came in when most of the claims had been made.

Pr-edit: I'll go make a quick post on Soft.

[wgeurts]

Sorry, I lied.
It'll be posted in a few hours.

[wgeurts]

Alright, I'm back and here's my short explanation for my town read on Soft Spoken. As for those that find my "I lied" odd I was referring to how I said I would make a post explaining what I'm about to explain for Insanity however my family decided to go out (and I'm not the kind of person to sit on his phone or whatever when with others) so I had to delay the post.

Anyway.

My town read (mind you, it's a lot weaker than Insanity and MathDino, who would have to claim scum by this point for me to lynch them) on Soft Spoken is because of the town motivation behind his posts. They do seem rather neutral overall however here and there I catch a glimpse of a mind trying to solve the game.
For example, in post 74 he discusses and questions my posts about the early claiming. The first part displays caution and suspicion which gets continued by further suspicion of my actions.
His next post (75) also displays a mentality which wants to gather information and figure stuff out.
And then there's the fact he didn't hesitate to claim for a second. I would expect scum to either; A, stall their claim or the mass-claim or B, oppose the claim. Why? Because them messing up their claims could potentially screw them over. Yet here Soft Spoken just claims without showing any caution.

His posts look like was genuinely busy and a quick examination of his posts all over the forum showed he wasn't lying.

Any questions?

[wgeurts]

Also, I apologise if I've missed words here and there. That was a phone-post made in notes, my PC's internet is currentely acting oddly.

[wgeurts]

So, at the moment I have town (which I'm confident in even without the reread finished):
MathDino
Insanity
<<<<<GAP>>>>>
Soft Spoken

[wgeurts]

I will laugh my ass off if this is the real setup

I need thoughts on wether scum would say this, as it may potentially be a town slip although I doubt it.

[wgeurts]

Ah, lol.
Will possibly vote MC once I'm done.

[wgeurts]

I could make a decent case for Mario scum but it would depend on NM and Marcrell being town, which basically means it'd be built on a foundation of crumpets.
His voting pattern and lack of strong content just bothers me though.

Pr-edit:
Claim Perv, everyone else has besides your slot and we need to know due to a plan we've set in motion which I'll go quote for you.

[wgeurts]

^Whay fromage said.

[wgeurts]

Did anyone else realise that Mario scolded YHAI for pushing SC even though they hadn't yet posted and said "If they haven't posted it's a null read and you should only push scum reads" yet he then votes SC anyway

AND

Marcrell. He's contradicting his own actions and thoughts here.

Pr-edit:
@Fromage,
Marcrell posted a lot more in that game then I remembered.

[wgeurts]

Town

MathDino
Insanity
Fromage
Soft Spoken
YHAI
SC
Pistachion
NotMafia
MetalCyanide
Kyndy
MarioManiax
Reubus Swagrid

Scum

Willing to lynch RS, Mario or Kyndy.

[wgeurts]

Reubus isn't a terribly experienced player and he's only focusing on things that concern him (could be newer scum tunnel vision), lacking any motivation to find scum at all.
I'm going to place my vote on him until he gives a list of reads on everyone and has reasons to explain them when questioned. Pressure should be able to crack him if he's actually scum as currently I'm skeptical he'll be able to fake it well enough.

Due to him being a doc (forgot, dammit) I'll not lynch him today. Nor will I push Mario.
Meaning I'm left with kyndy.
I'm willing to vote MC if somebody explains the case on him (besides the awkard tone in all his posts).
I'll do the same for kyndy.

[wgeurts]

Reubus isn't a terribly experienced player and he's only focusing on things that concern him (could be newer scum tunnel vision), lacking any motivation to find scum at all.
I was going to place my vote on him until he gives a list of reads on everyone and has reasons to explain them when questioned. Pressure should be able to crack him if he's actually scum as currently I'm skeptical he'll be able to fake it well enough.

Due to him being a doc (forgot, dammit) I'll not lynch him today. Nor will I push Mario.
Meaning I'm left with kyndy.
I'm willing to vote MC if somebody explains the case on him (besides the awkard tone in all his posts).
I'll do the same for kyndy.

EBWOP

[wgeurts]

Marcrell posted a lot more in that game then I remembered.

He recieved one prod and he had fewer posts than you who was the mod. I don't think the meta is totally invalid.

Why is SC so high in your list?

Pressure votes don't work if you announce that they are pressure votes.

Well, yeah.
I was going to not announce it but stopped because he's a doc claim.
But, I hope it's very clear to him that if he doesn't man up and play the game soon I'm going to push him hard.

As for SC, he's is in the middle of my list as null as that's what he really is. I have no knowledge of the players in the hydra like I did with Marcrell so the lurking is a tell for me.

[wgeurts]

*isn't a tell for me

[wgeurts]

We're not lynching Reubus mate, he's a claimed doc. Although I wouldn't min hanging him tommorow.

[wgeurts]

We're not lynching Reubus mate, he's a claimed doc. Although I wouldn't mind hanging him tommorow.

[wgeurts]

Pistachion instead of agreeing with others who do you think is scum, please provide three names including those that you expect to most likely flip mafia.
I'm interested in your own oppinions however you seem to comment more on others than speak out your own.

[wgeurts]

Oh, that's why you're also in the middle of my reads list. Commenting on stuff a lot can be done by town, however it's not very hard to fake if you're scum. For this reason you're in my "null with a tiny chance of being scum" pile as you may be town, but you could just as easily be scum.
I want your own thoughts so I can sort you.

Also please name your top three town reads as well, the more links we can build between people the better as the game goes on.

[wgeurts]

I see your vote is also still on me, take of it off for day 1. We've set up a plan which the majority has agreed to which renders the 5 night 1 claims effectively unlynchable. Even if you think I'm scum, it's going againt the plan which a majority of town has agreed to (with so many supporting it there must be town amongst them) and a wagon on me won't work as those following "the plan" won't lynch me.

If you're convinced I'm scum by day 2 feel free to push me like the scum you think I am, today however is not the time for that.

[wgeurts]

Ok, this is looking better and thanks for following the plan even if you think I'm scum.
Your top town reads now?w

It would also be great if you explained why the case on NM is bad.
I myself need to go explain my NM read which is leaning scum but less so than others.

[wgeurts]

Mmm, you can be town as all your reasons make sense and are factually correct while not just being taken from others reasons.

[wgeurts]

@Persivul,
I claimed as MathDino had as well, and it follows up my plan as I am a night 1 doctor.
As for the voting pattern analysis, I'm keeping a tab on everyone's vote which will show who voted who and what alignment people were as well as how many people were on the wagon and the point the joined/left it.
So you can expect more of that later, especially late game.

[wgeurts]

Jazz, we are currentely doing setup breaking and scum hunting.
Not only the former.

[wgeurts]

Tells from people's oppinions aren't strong ones, however I do believe that certain stances support a certain alignment's mindset than others. They're however far from enough to build a read upon on their own, but that doesn't mean you should exclude them from a case/explanation when other reasons point to someone being scum/town.

[wgeurts]

I agree with you mostly, however I disagree there's no alignment indicative content to be reaped from setup speculation. If you truly thought up your mass-claim idea before the game started then the initial foundation for my town read on you was wrong. However we have moved on from that stage and I could make a wall post on how you and insanity are town besides setup spec reasons.
As I'm finding it hard to find strong scum reads like you at the moment (besides Reubus, who is bloody well scum) I'm resorted to town hunting, this way I hope to narrow down my suspects.

[wgeurts]

I agree with you mostly, however I disagree there's no alignment indicative content to be reaped from setup speculation.
If you truly thought up your mass-claim idea before the game started then the initial foundation for my town read on you was wrong. However we have moved on from that stage and I could make a wall post on how you and insanity are town besides setup spec reasons.
As I'm finding it hard to find strong scum reads like you at the moment (besides Reubus, who is bloody well scum) I've resorted to town hunting, this way I hope to narrow down my suspects.

EBWOP

[wgeurts]

Fromage, would you call reads changing scummy?

[wgeurts]

My reads in the beginning were weak (besides MathDino) as due to Exams I did not have the time need to fully invest myself in this game. Hence I just reread, as I no longer need to study I have the time to do what I couldn't. I started compiling all the votes and analysing each post while reading it in-depth. Hence if you now ask me for explanations of my read I can actually give them as I now know why I'm reading someone as "X" instead of following my gut or taking the easy option to make sure this slot doesn't become a lurker.
My reads have changed I'll admit.
However it's not like they changed out of nowhere, and there's no sign of opportunism.

If you want I can go ahead and explain what I was thinking during all the posts you quoted.

Now to make that NM post. Modding responsibilities sapped about two hours of my life.

[wgeurts]

Okay, here's my long due explanation for why I think Not Mafia is less scummy than my other scum reads, even leaning slightly towards null.

To start things off I need to explain why I was originally voting his slot. I thought I remembered Marcrell heavy lurking as scum before because of a game I modded, however when I went back to check it that wasn't the case. He lurked, but not too heavily. I've never seen him full flake so there's literally zero tells for him being either alignment, hence I unvoted.

Then comes Not Mafia, his entrance I believe is also null. People demand he claims however he refuses to do so, however this course of action could be taken by any alignment. As town (he stated he hadn't yet read the game) he may be wary of claiming, possibly even suspicious that scum is fishing for his role. Yet as scum, he may just be refusing to claim so he has time to find out what has already happened so he doesn't botch it. I find it hard to think up any other scum motivation for not claiming in the situation he was in.
It's obvious he's refusing to claim until he's read the game as later in post 221 he claims when he sees we have actually mass-claimed. This could fit cautious town or scum, hence there's really nothing is to see it as besides null.
So his entrance is null, however his play gets a little worse from there onwards. I could quote all his posts and make this a huge wall, however I'll keep it short: he's become too focused on Fromage and is tunnelling him with sometimes false reasoning. I don't know NM's usual play so I can't say if he's the type of person to do this as town, however it is scummy so therefore he's low on my reads list. My other scum reads are stronger than him though.

[wgeurts]

SC is a really stupid wagon, if the main reasons for a wagon is "they're lurking" it's not a good wagon.

[wgeurts]

So we should avoid an SC compromise lynch as I'd expect scum to take him as their victim.

[wgeurts]

I'm a man of my word, so here's that post reacting to all your points you requested.

I wanted to write down why I scumread wgeurts. I've spoilered my reasons because we're not going to lynch the night-1 docs toDay.

First of all, there's some weird stuff but maybe not everything is necessarily alignment indicative.

I've also been wondering what's stopping us from all claiming, we can build up a tonne of obv-towns.

I can't follow his thought process. If he's been wondering about claiming why didn't he mention it in his first posts?

It was a school day, I cycle 13km to school and do a lot of my thinking while doing so. While at school I'm unable to make large or good posts, so this is why I didn't post my thoughts on mass-claiming then. You can call this all crumpets as we all know this could be BS, only I know it isn't.

Like, if a Day 1 doctor claims doc and ask for a day 1 cop. Then the doc will die whatever that night, but that's not a huge loss as they'd be VT for the rest of the game anyway.
Plus the scum are forced to kill the doc otherwise they basically let an IC alive.

As pointed out by others, the doc wouldn't become an IC.

Indeed, he won't. This thought was wrong and it should have been more likely town, which still would have been wrong.

I'm a night 1 doc
Discuss.

Only three players (insanity, math, yhai) had posted since his last post. I'm unsure why he fullclaims without hearing the opinions of other people. A claim cannot be retracted. In addition to that, why do we have to discuss his claim?

I claimed as MathDino claimed before me, and my plan was for docs to claim before their night and me being a night-1 doc meant that according to my idea I should claim today. So I did, as it:
A, Got the ball rolling with the mass-claim.
B, Hopefully would bring my plan into action.
As for the discuss, it wasn't serious. If I had said "I'm a pineapple. Discuss" the word "Discuss" would still be as serious.

Also IC wasn't the right term, "more likely than otherwise town" would have been better.

"more likely than otherwise town" is also wrong. As likely town as everyone else is right.

Agreed. Quick rushed posted thoughts don't tend to be good.

Well MarioManiac, you're in good hands!
If you die tonight feel free to lynch me tommorow, I'll self vote if needed.

I find it a bit weird that he talks about the possibility that Mario will die. If wgeurts is a doc, Mario won't die. Period.

I was making it clear that MarioManiac wouldn't die by saying that if he did everyone can lynch me and I'll join the wagon as I'd be confirmed scum. Which I would be, from your perspective. I was basically saying wether you trust my claim or not it's win-win for Mariomaniac.

Right,
Now enough night talk.
VOTE: MetalCyanide

(Restarted RVS)
Enough setup talk

Strange because not everyone had yet commented on the night strategy and there was already enough information to scumhunt without using random votes.

Now I read this again it was stupid, I was trying to progress the game from setup specualtion to scum hunting. This was a stupid way to do so.

Ah, I remembered the game incorrectely. UNVOTE: Marcrell

I'm surprised that he refers to NM by the name of his predecessor because he mentioned Not_Mafia in posts 270, 273 and 280.

Explained if you remember I was busy studying for exams (which I'm now taking) so I wasn't giving this game a lot of attention.

I will laugh my ass off if this is the real setup

I need thoughts on wether scum would say this, as it may potentially be a town slip although I doubt it.

I don't like this post because he points something out but doesn't actually commit to an opinion.

I thought it was a potential town slip as scum should know the setup as they would discuss it pre-game, you'll see this in the final sentence of that post.

I could make a decent case for Mario scum but it would depend on NM and Marcrell being town, which basically means it'd be built on a foundation of crumpets.
His voting pattern and lack of strong content just bothers me though.

The post bothers me because it's basically: "I could make a decent case but I won't". Therefore it's pretty unnecessary.

I'm saying Mario's voting is opportunistic however I don't have the evidence needed yet to actually make a case on it, it's a read which will develop so you lot should see a case later (or not if the evidence points against mario scum).

As for the voting pattern analysis, I'm keeping a tab on everyone's vote which will show who voted who and what alignment people were as well as how many people were on the wagon and the point the joined/left it.
So you can expect more of that later, especially late game.

He announces to do VCA. But wgeurts own votes are pretty useless for VCA. A vote on Marcrell because of wrong meta, a pressure vote on Reubeus and currently he votes nobody. This doesn't make his votes easy to analyse.

Once again, busy, exams, I was coasting along.

More interesting are the little inconsistencies in his opinions.


His read of insanity:

Insanity is looking dodgy for resisting claims.

Pr-edit:
Soon enough, I'm at page 6 and I'll only summarise my thoughts once I'm confiden in them and where they are up to date.
Want to say that MathDino and Insanity are strong town though and that Kyndy looks like mislynch bait, however may possibly be scum if mario is.

The first comment was made on page 3. So during his reread his early insanity read has changed from "looking dodgy" to "strong town".

Indeed, at first I thought opposition to claiming would obviously be scum (as I was thinking my idea was so fool proof nobody should oppose it. It was not). However when I reread I took care to look behind the posts and see the thought processes going on and the motivation. Something I didn't do before as I was busy. Hence when I reread my reads changed drastically.

His read of Metalcyanide:

VOTE: Marcrell
It's a better vote than cyanide, and ask for the meta and I'll provide.

Here it looks like he thinks that MC is a bad lynch. After his reread, his opionion has changed:

Ah, lol.
Will possibly vote MC once I'm done.

I'm willing to vote MC if somebody explains the case on him (besides the awkard tone in all his posts).

I don't know what kyndy posted in the meantime which justifies the change of wgeurt's read.

Nah, better vote means Marcrell had a stronger case. Was still scum reading MC.

His read of NM:

Not Mafia through shade over a public scum-read (me) and voted an unlikely target (a scum tactic often used to appear scum-hunting) but I need to ponder wether its genuine or not. And 7am is not the time for that.

As for unvoting Marcrell.
If I have no reason to scum read someone, then my vote is not needed there.
Period.

I myself need to go explain my NM read which is leaning scum but less so than others.

Again, why does he refer to NM as Marcrell? Didn't he realize that Not_Mafia replaced Marcrell? If not, it doesn't make sense to me how quickly his read changes.

Actually, the first post is me showing my thought process which lead to me seeing that part of his posts as null, it could have been done by town and scum which is what I was making clear in that post. As for Marcrell, busy, exams... You get it.

His opinion on randomizing doc protection or making the doc target public:

As for Rebus, double doc is possible according to the setup. I'm still targeting the first claimed cop though, if there's a second night 1 cop they should claim. If nobody does you should use the protection on someone you think is town, and say it in thread so we know yout scum if they flip.

If this is true we should keep the old plan, except the other doc claim should randomly pick between NM and RS. I'll protect the other.

I simply don't understand the discrepancy. In the first case, I think that randomizing would be better. In the second case, I think it's better to clearly announce the doc target.

I fail to see how this is scummy.

Finally I'm still suspicious how wgeurts presented his Marcrell meta.

Marcrell lurks and gets prodded a lot as scum, speaking as a mod that modded his game.
VOTE: Marcrell
It's a better vote than cyanide, and ask for the meta and I'll provide.

Ah, I remembered the game incorrectely. UNVOTE: Marcrell

Pr-edit:
@Fromage,
Marcrell posted a lot more in that game then I remembered.

He seems to be pretty confident in his first post. The later posts look like backtracking to me. Marcrell wasn't that active in Lunatic Asylum C++. He had 30 posts in total. Wgeurts who was the mod made 42 posts.

30 posts is a lot more than 0, hence the two aren't the same.

That's my evidence. I'm not so sure about wgeurts as I'm about NM but I still have a solid scumread of him. Feel free to comment on my case but since we're not going to lynch wgeurts toDay, it's not terribly important

[wgeurts]

So his entrance is null

Not Mafia through shade over a public scum-read (me) and voted an unlikely target (a scum tactic often used to appear scum-hunting) but I need to ponder wether its genuine or not.

This doesn't fit well together.

So we should avoid an SC compromise lynch as I'd expect scum to take him as their victim.

What makes me more happy about the wagon is that both you and NM avoid it.

Point 1:
That post you quoted is literally me saying I don't know which alignment his actions fit to, rendering your whole point invalid as it just shows nothing changed.
Point 2:
Pre-flip associatives are bad, period.
I could say "Jazz wagon is bad as Mario and Kyndy are on it." however I'm not. This is literaly a stupid reason for a scum read.

[wgeurts]

Okay because this bothers me so much I making another post for it:

Pre-Flip Associative Tells Are The Worst And Almost Always Wrong

To start with, for a pre-flip associative to develop you need to be confident in your scum reads. On day 1, that's a risky gamble as without flips it's always hard to be sure of your reads. To then go base another scum read off the fact two of your scum reads are avoiding it is even worse. As it means you really have no solid reasoning to scun read Jazz and if you're wrong on a single read your whole things collapases and you'll end up lynching town.
Now the fact you would even consider trusting two scum reads this much frightens me, it indicates you're not going to budge on them and likely will tunnel leading to conf-bias.
I'm sorry, but you've just dropped hard on my reads list.
As town you should know this.

[wgeurts]

VOTE: Fromage

[wgeurts]

As town you should already be cautious of your scum reads as we all know we can be wrong, especially day 1. However you took it a step further, and have built another scum read upon two gambled scum reads. I can't see the town caution here.

[wgeurts]

I'm voting fromage until he gets his crumpets together and stops using associatives before flips have happened, as for a fromage lynch not happening it's the second main competing wagon besides the old SC wagon which I believe is on town. MetalCyanide is getting replaced and I like to give replacements a chance to get into the game as they may change reads on them, and I'm not too heavily scum reading NM.

[wgeurts]

And tunneling with the occasional false argument isn't always scum.

[wgeurts]

In other words, I'll be voting MetalCyanide's slot if his replacement comes in and doesn't show improvement. The SC wagon looks scum driven and has yet to be presented a good case, as none has so far. Pistachion is town and not mafia, I'm not confident in this scum read and fromage's confidence in it ticks me off.

[wgeurts]

I'm willing to strike you a deal fromage, if you're so confident in Not_Mafia being scum I'll hand you my vote which you can use for whatever you wish. However, if whoever you make me vote flips town, I get your vote tommorow.

[wgeurts]

As if you're so confident that Jazz is scum because me and NM are scum, there's nothing you can loose is there?
Except if jazz flips town, it either means you suck at associatives or you're wrong. If you're wrong, your vote is mine. If you're right, we just lynched scum.
I'm even willing to change the deal to until someone flips town my vote is yours, and if that happens I get your vote for a day.
So what will it be?

[wgeurts]

As as town he has no reason to turn down this offer, scum giving you his vote to vote a scum read is always good. However if he's denies it, it shows he's not 100% sure Jazz is scum. His reason for his Jazz read is that me and NM are avoiding his wagon, and if he's unsure of jazz that means he's not sure me and NM are actually scum.
Him not being sure that jazz is scum would also be odd as then why is he voting jazz over NM?

All in all him refusing this offer indicates his reads are fake and his opportunism onto getting on Jazz's wagon.

[wgeurts]

YHAI, can you explain?
And 4 days is a lot. We're fine, just make sure we don't compromise at all.
In my oppinion no lynch is better than a quick-scraped together one.

[wgeurts]

Persivul,
No.
As I said, we are not compromising today.

[wgeurts]

Persivul, I'm not too confident fromage will flip scum. So the answer is a no.

[wgeurts]

As in, I'm not as confident in my scum reads day 1 to gamble my vote for the coming two days on it.

[wgeurts]

Persiv, the problem is he's basing his Jazz scum read off me and NM being scum before anyone has flipped. Him showing uncertainty means that his Jazz scum read is even weaker and has less reasoning for it. Why did he change to jazz when NM, a scum read he's given reasons for is so much stronger than the Jazz one and both had equal people on the wagons?

Anyway,
@Fromage, If you swear to follow it and not break the deal I'll vote. Breaking it will influence my view of you as a player.

[wgeurts]

That backdating of reasoning for the vote is bothering me. I need to think about this.
UNVOTE:

That's only additional evidence and not my original reason to vote Jazzmyn. My orignial reasons included that SC as a three-headed hydra decided to replace into the game but flaked after only three posts. They included too that Jazzmyn didn't hand out any reads while they read the thread.

This is a really weak reason for a read, and is likely incorrect.
They could have been a group of friends which were enthusiastic at first but lost interest.
They could have been busy with exams if they are younger and lost interest.
Maybe they were in too many games.
You know this, activity is not a tell. Why vote Jazz over NM?

[wgeurts]

"We're voting him because he wasn't very active"
Read that, it's not a very convincing case is it?
This guy should be bordering null in most people's reads, except he's being wagoned by people contradicting themselves. See my ISO for my point on MarioManiac4.
It seriously looks like lynch bait which scum is taking.

[wgeurts]

Persiv is quite obviously town though, that last sequence of posts was good.

[wgeurts]

Though this is wrong:

He admitted up front that jazz is at most his third-highest scum read.

See my ISO, he's like 4th/5th bordering null.

[wgeurts]

It's not the content but the motivation and thought proces that counts though, and those last three posts of persiv show town trying to figure stuff out.
Soft-spoken had the same, therefore this slot is town.

[wgeurts]

You need to claim, we all have besides your slot.

[wgeurts]

The whole claims

Cops:
MathDino

MarioManiac4 – N1 Claim
You have any ideas - N1 Claim

Soviet Crocolisk
Soft-spoken
Fromage

Not_Mafia - N1 claim

Docs:

Wgeurts – N1 claim

Insanity018
Kyndy101
Pistachi0n

Reubus Swagrid - N1 claim

Need to claim:

Metalcyanide

We have 8 claimed cops but only 6 cops can be in the setup. Thus at least 2 claimed cops are scum.
If a claimed doc flips scum, the others are confirmed town. We still need cyanides claim though.

[wgeurts]

You need to claim, we all have besides your slot.

I'm a replacement of Metalcyanide who claimed in post 67.

Nice...I hate that ploy. wgeurts, point me to one instance where it actually worked.

Newbies, it's always worth a try.

[wgeurts]

VOTE: Jazz
If you're wrong and you don't vote with me tommorow it's you I'll hang.
Lets see how much honour you have.

Also, in the case jazz does flip mafia; fromage will be town beyond reason.

[wgeurts]

How so?

[wgeurts]

Lol, I'm not buddying him.
I'm getting his vote so tommorow I have two, and as he's likely scum I'll be weakening them.

[wgeurts]

But do you have no problem that scum controls your vote toDay?

Well, if it gives me information I'm fine with it.

[wgeurts]

I won't hesitate to hammer fromage though if he does get to L1, and if the jazz wagon disbands the deals also broken.

[wgeurts]

If you leave the jazz wagon it holds no worth anymore, and if everyone piles onto you I'll vote you as jazz won't be getting lynched.

[wgeurts]

As long as your on jazz though, my vote will also be there.

[wgeurts]

Yay, titus

[wgeurts]

Jazzmyn because her predecessor lurked and fromage for various.

[wgeurts]

We have

[wgeurts]

Oh, fuck pr-edits not showing.
Yeah we mass claimed but lol

[wgeurts]

Everyone seems to question the deal I made with fromage. So let me explain my thoughts:
If Jazz flips scum it would make fromage look very town, however if she flips town it would show a town fromage he's wrong and I wasn't purpously avoiding that wagon as a scum buddy. It also would give me his vote, which I would get him use on Mario or Reubus: my main actual scum reads which I'm not voting as they're claim night 1 Power Roles.
I've also debated getting him to vote himself.
Either way, for me it almost win-win. Although a town lynch is bad there's a chance it'll be scum and one way or another it will provide information. It aslo means I get the vote of one of my scum reads, which is delightful. Look at it from fromages perspective, he's getting the vote of one of his scum-reads, which either means he's scum and using me for a day 1 mislynch or he's town and likes it for the same reasons I do. I'm trying to sort fromage, this flip gives needed information and a fall-back.

[wgeurts]

If I may do so (aaaaah, self-meta) I did the same in Team Mafia Vanilla Nightless as town. Titus should know this however she hasn't said a word of it.

[wgeurts]

Say, not do

[wgeurts]

VOTE: Wgeurts
Make sure to lynch fromage tommorow, I'm either lynched or L1.

[wgeurts]

If I make a deal I'll keep it.

[wgeurts]

Kudos on keeping your word wgeurts.

Thank you, I appreciate it
But seriously.
You guys are lynching a fucking doctor.

[wgeurts]

Make sure to look at the people who had me as null and changed to scum when a wagon built on me, especially those that casually placed light scum reads on me. There's a lot of information to be drawn out my lynch.

[wgeurts]

Persivul, Insanity and MathDino should start workiny as a bloc as well. I strongly believe you three are town and we need some more order a control as there are too little strong scum reads held by the public oppinions. We therefore need town to seek other town and work together.

[wgeurts]

The cops should cop each other.
NM, the third N1 cop claim should target Jazz/Fromage.

[wgeurts]

This was the plan:

I'm a doctor who protects mario
You protect yhai
Cops target each other
NM targets?

This means unless both of the cops are scum that we're left with too very likely town players, and the scum have to waste a NK on a VT to kill them keeping PR's alive.
I would actually like NM to target mario to make sure they aren't just two gambiting scum.

[wgeurts]

And titus, indeed I don't have a clue why people are wagoning Jazz. I gave my vote to Fromage today however and if we lynch town I get his tommorow.

[wgeurts]

Well I'd then like Persivul to control the vote, as I'm sure he's town.
Don't know what fromage wants, he seems to be lynching me to get out of the deal. Which I what I said, as scum he needs to mislynch and I've made that hard for him to do. So why not wagon me and get a free mislynch?
He hasn't even explained his vote on me.

[wgeurts]

VOTE: Jazzmyn
@Insanity,
Her reads seem kind of fluid don't they?

[wgeurts]

I'm certainly convinced of my reads, I'd rather get fromage's vote to push them. And there were other reasons for the deal which I explained before it was accepted.

[wgeurts]

*raises eyebrow*
UNVOTE: Jazz

[wgeurts]

VOTE: Fromage
Lol, and we're back to what I said before you accepted the deal.

[wgeurts]

Mario why the fudge didn't you target YHAI
VOTE: Titus
I'm going to be away for a while however I suspect this slot of being scum.
I was wrong on fromage, I really was mistaken in what was scummy for a tell.

[wgeurts]

VOTE: Not_Mafia
Well then, make this easy so I don't miss stuff for my VLA.

[wgeurts]

NM.
Whatever.
If you do flip a cop we'll know miih's town and marios scum.
If you flip scum mario is likely town.
Win-Win.
Now please die.

[wgeurts]

Also. I healed Mario, if that wasn't clear.

[wgeurts]

NM.
Whatever.
If you do flip a cop we'll know miih's town and marios scum.
If you flip scum mario is likely town.
Win-Win.
Now please die.

NM
We have literaly nothing we loose with your flip in any situation possible.
Even if he's lying we get a scum by tommorow.

[wgeurts]

VOTE: Jazz
They're killing townbloc players at the moment, however I would support a you/persivul bloc.

[wgeurts]

VOTE: Titus
Onwards to victory.

Just realised she also replaced cyanide.

[wgeurts]

I'll go do VCA once I've bought pizza.

[wgeurts]

Still fine, Reubus was also scummy.

[wgeurts]

Vote Count 1.22 (Final)

kyndy101 (1)

- insanity018

[LYNCH!]

Fromage (7)

- Not_Mafia, pistachi0n, kyndy101, miih, Persivul, wgeurts, you have any ideas

Not_Mafia (1)

- MarioManiac4

Jazzmyn (1)

- Fromage

Not Voting:

Jazzmyn, Mathdino, Titus

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 ends in (expired on 2015-06-29 02:00:00).

Mod Notes:

Looking for a replacement for

Mathdino

.

Vote Count 2.2 (FINAL)

[LYNCH!]

Not_Mafia (6)

- MarioManiac4, Persivul, wgeurts, kyndy101, pistachi0n, Not_Mafia

Not Voting:

you have any ideas, miih, wgeurts, Jazzmyn, insanity018

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Day 2 ends in (expired on 2015-07-11 22:05:00).

Mod Notes:

wgeurts

is V/LA until 02.07.2015.

Vote Count 3.1 (FINAL)

[LYNCH!]

Jazzmyn (5)

- Persivul, pistachi0n, kyndy101, MarioManiac4, Jazzmyn

Not Voting:

you have any ideas, miih, wgeurts, Titus

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Day 3 ends in (expired on 2015-07-14 00:00:00).

Mod Notes:

wgeurts

is V/LA until 02.07.2015.

Pistachion, Persivul and Kyndy were on all of the cop lynches and usually pretty quickly. Titus however hasn't been on a single scum lynch.
Lynch her and we win.

[wgeurts]

I am still alive!
By process of elimination I think it's pistachi0n or kyndy.

VOTE: kyndy101

Titus showed a willingness to be scanned I wouldn't expect to see from scum.

Why not titus?

[wgeurts]

I do believe I've already explained my reubus scum read and I can go explain my titus one but I strongly believe lynching her will win us the game.

[wgeurts]

Nor is it mine, it's a minor addition to the scum read.
ISO me.

[wgeurts]

I would be willing to vote Titus, if we agreed to lynch kyndy in case of townflip.

I'd be okay with this.

[wgeurts]

I would be willing to vote Titus, if we agreed to lynch kyndy in case of townflip.

I'd be okay with this.

Deal
VOTE: Titus

L2 vote

I'm good with this. P sure Titus is scum XD If he isn't, then at least it's not lylo tomorrow when you guys lynch me, because then we still have a chance at winning!

VOTE: Titus

Maybe titus lack of posts can be explained because of demotivation?
Anyway, she's getting lynched someone hammer.

[wgeurts]

Requesting yhai checking you is in no way town if she coincidentally dies instead of mariomaniac4 the next night. It's null, you should know this and honestly that post feels like a last struggle at getting town-cred.

[wgeurts]

Yhai also checked someone else I believe, I've forgotten who's done what this game but the point is you're scum either way grasping at town cred.

[wgeurts]

Just vote Titus as we all know you're town.

[wgeurts]

Don't want to drag the game on longer than it should.
Titus is getting lynched so let's get it over with.

[wgeurts]

She's given up, she posts else where yet she doesn't even post a defence here except for a grasp at town cred.
Lynch titus and we win.

[wgeurts]

VOTE: Kyndy
If we get to lylo we'll have to look at the timing of marios result reveal, scum faking a scum result on their partner could win them the game. Just to be sure.
I'm however happy to lynch kyndy first, that vote is off. I'd rather talk first before voting and that vote was survivalist.

[wgeurts]

Persivul if you're mafia btw I don't even care if you win. You then deserve it.

[wgeurts]

Dammit.
It's up to me now isn't it.
Persivul, if you're scum I've already said you deserve this win.
VOTE: Pistachion

[wgeurts]

So are you scum or have we won?

[wgeurts]

As I've said, I regret nothing. My gut did start pondering the possibly that persivul could be scum however I decided that if he was I didn't care and he deserved this win. My fromage push was my largest mistake, it shows once more faulty reasoning is not always scummy. I apologise for that fromage, you played well and I should have listened to the doubt in the back of my head.
Mathdino and insanity both played very well, leading to their deaths for them being so obviously town.

Now, a serious question persivul.
Why didn't you kill pistachion to make this the hardest lylo ever?
I'd then have to choose between two cops.

[wgeurts]

It would have been harder to win, but it would have been funny.

[wgeurts]

I know, he was almost guaranteed victory anyway either way.