Open 596: Mega PopCorn Mafia - Over

[West9]

/confirm

[West9]

Hi. I'm here. I don't know people except for Victor kind of.

Why is 168 the first vote? Are we not doing the whole "fake voting" thing?

Can we stop the 'shoot meeeeee' shenanigans and get down to scumhunting?

There was a while between the last "shoot me" post and this one. Why did you feel like saying this?

And maybe I just trust the innocent-looking ones too much (I'll try to ignore this, but seriously I think this might be a problem for me), but Jeanne's obnoxiousness without ill will reads town a lot more strongly than Heartless's anger. I think it makes sense for them to be scum who don't want to be shot for silly reasons.

Why Vengeful specifically, then?

Did people want anything from Us? We may have missed stuff.

How come you're not mad at people breaking your unspoken rule #1?

[West9]

west9: meh. I don't like his posting style. his only post contains a bunch of questions with no opinions. (#171)

This isn't an acceptable alternative to answering my question.

[West9]

west9: meh. I don't like his posting style. his only post contains a bunch of questions with no opinions. (#171)

This isn't an acceptable alternative to answering my question.

there were literally minutes between those posts. i was ninjad.

You were ninjad for the twenty minutes between 89 and 127?

[West9]

it felt like we were discussing it at the time that i posted.

So, you weren't ninjad. Why did you say you were ninjad?

[West9]

it felt like we were discussing it at the time that i posted.

So, you weren't ninjad. Why did you say you were ninjad?

it was a big storm of posting when the game began, i was ninjad with every post at that point.

its not like im lying about being ninjad... what could i gain from that?

That post just read to me as an earlygame attempt to look useful while not being at all useful, and your justification for it doesn't persuade me otherwise. Same with this worthless readlist.

VOTE: Vonflare

[West9]

Wow, who wants to read 10 pages of what's probably a bunch of popcorn-related nonsense?

Wouldn't it be great if I could just sheep my broski Nacho all game? I mean, who would know?

You still not planning on reading up?

I've read and caught up. I have scum reads on wanderer and West9, slight scum reads on Perpetual Nonsense and Lucky2u, and town reads on vonflare and DCL.

Are the town reads are because your scumreads are voting for them or...?

Bert is Perpetual Nonsense, right? Just checking.

How come you're not mad at people breaking your unspoken rule #1?

Dunno. I don't feel a candle burning. I didn't remember what I posted for my rules. Did you think I was serious about those? Those were more a parody of myself.

It was "no begging for the gun."

That post just read to me as an earlygame attempt to look useful while not being at all useful, and your justification for it doesn't persuade me otherwise. Same with this worthless readlist.

How is that readlist worthless? when most haven't even posted one - which is more worthless than a readlist that is apparently worthless?

Because Vonflare himself said it was worthless (222). Also, it's not like options are confined "post a readlist" or "don't post a readlist."

[West9]

ebwop

Also, it's not like options are confined to "post a readlist" or "don't post a readlist."

[West9]

I like CB's posts so far. Good town feelings from them.

Heartless' active scumhunting is also promising.

Enomis' shitposting was endearing but now I'm kinda yawning at it. I don't think it's scummy but I don't like it in general.

I think my only proper scumread at the moment is RedCoyote.


This game is interesting in that shooting mafia does not actually advance our win condition. It only does if we hit vengeful. But shooting town is bad, obviously, and there's a time limit. So the normal mafia are there as safe hits. I think this means the normal mafia will play less carefully, as CB said. I think the vengefuls will avoid risky posts. Of course me saying this might change all that, I don't know. If there are any actual differences between the playstyle of the different kinds of mafia, they will be very slight. I DO think this will matter endgame, though, just maybe not as much now, with so many players to sift through. For now, finding a safe shot for nacho is priority. (I'd count vengefuls as a safe shot of course)

I agree about enomis, but I can't tell what you're trying to say with this last paragraph besides "nacho should shoot scum"

[West9]

Are the town reads are because your scumreads are voting for them or...?

Not quite, but that's the main gist of it. I'll go into those if I have time. Though from their posting and general dynamics, I would predict both would draw scum aggro.

I don't know what "scum aggro" means.

My thinking on vonflare is that people are making too much of the ninja kerfuffle, as I can't see how that matters, but whatever.

Here's my perspective on Vonflare: the whole "hey, guys, you should stop asking to be shot and start scumhunting!" comment was really irrelevant at the time he made it, which makes me suspect that he's trying to do a whole "fake town rallying voice" thing (I also get a similar insincere "here, let me help the town get it's act together!" vibe from his readlist). When I questioned him on why he thought it was relevant, he did three things. A) Immediately scumread me B) Said that he was ninjad and C) said that he thought the current discussion was still about the whole "shoot me" thing.

Being ninjad for twenty straight minutes seems false enough, but even if it's true, being ninjad at all doesn't excuse an irrelevant comment, especially when you consider this definition of ninjaing that Nacho gave:

One question: what is 'being ninjad'?

whenever you post and then the forum is like "someone else already posted! would you like to post something else now that you see their post?"

B and C can't coexist as excuses, so I don't think either of them are true.
That's where I'm at with him. But, it sounds like he's not getting shot, so engh.

I feel decently confident my first two shots are going to be RedCoyote and Lucky.

I'm assuming this is the part where we give thoughts about these two players. Don't wanna crowd this post, so I'll get that going in a sec.

[West9]

I feel decently confident my first two shots are going to be RedCoyote and Lucky.

Pre-ISO thoughts: Lurkers whoopee. Someone (don't remember who) said that the active players right now are probably an close-to-even mix of town and scum, and I agree with that.

Don't recall anything about Lucky.

The one thing that stood out to me with RedCoyote was his dismissal of 10 pages of game because it was "probably nonsense" or something to that effect. In a recent game, I saw a couple of scumplayers go through the game while saying this sort of mentality, so I'm more suspicious of it than maybe I should be. Actually, I should probably get a second opinion on that. I'll ask Victor when he gets back.

Lucky ISO:

How the hell do you scum hunt in this?

This looks like scum trying to excuse any future uselessness.

If I had a vote, I'd hammer this.

I'm useless when I'm playing a game I'm familiar with.

Who knows Lucky here? I wanna know if this self-deprecating humor is noticeably uncharacteristic of him or not.

Dang every time I look at this thread it grows 5 pages.

lol, i feel you bro.

This sorta gives me the same vibe as that RedCoyote thing I talked about above.

@Lucky

So are you reading or no?

Wow that was quick. Again, lurkers whoopee.

Red ISO:

Wow, who wants to read 10 pages of what's probably a bunch of popcorn-related nonsense?

Wouldn't it be great if I could just sheep my broski Nacho all game? I mean, who would know?

Same question about characteristic-ness of this humor going out to people who know Red.

You know, I just realized we can't vote, lol. I also just realized Nacho is the gunbearer so my 246 sounds slimier than I knew, hah.

@Red:

Why were you planning on sheeping Nacho, then? Looking for an answer beyond "he's my broski."

I think I'm gonna need answers to these questions before I'll be able to choose whether or not I endorse these shots.

[West9]

@AA9 - We're getting unofficial vote counts, right? Seems like that hasn't been happening.

Did I ask bad questions about Lucky and Red or is it just that nobody knows them?
More likely to endorse a Lucky shot if those are still the only two candidates.

Just as much as others are suspecting wanderer for not doing scum-hunting, I'm getting Maxwell as being half-assed scum-hunting. Which is why I asked the question of a voting system. If I felt Maxwell was pure town, I'd've wanted Maxwell to actually try to implement something. But I don't get the sense that Maxwell wants that. So prove me wrong Maxwell and force everyone to look at certain players through some type of referendum or focused-voting system.

You lost me here. Are you scumreading everyone who isn't suggesting a voting system? If not, why hold Max up to that standard? Or am I completely misreading this?

[West9]

Did I ask bad questions about Lucky and Red or is it just that nobody knows them?

You think I'm just lurking this one out, brother?

You say that as if it hasn't been a perfectly reasonable assumption for nearly all of this game.
Also, I asked you a question:

@Red: Why were you planning on sheeping Nacho, then? Looking for an answer beyond "he's my broski."

My vote's staying on Vonflare atm.

I still think Lucky's the best shot out of the Lucky/RC duo which Nacho is (presumably still?) considering. Which is sad because nobody seems to want to talk about him.

I like RedCoyote's post because it gives me town vibes, because he's finally contributing to the game
...
Also, Coyote's catchup was just that, a catchup. It's not comprehensive, it's a mixture of reads and questions he needs to ask. It doesn't come off as forced to me at all.

I agree with Heartless that scum shouldn't find it difficult to make an not comprehensive catchup post that doesn't seem forced.
Why are you this quick to give activity townpoints when you want to shoot an active player?

It's pretty obvious which one of us is typing any particular post, your passive-aggressiveness notwithstanding.

The dissonance is frustratingly confusing at times. I'd also prefer it if you two signed your posts.

[West9]

anywaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay
[whatever tth is saying is probably right. i haven't read all of the recent stuff, but she's pretty sharp so... yeah]

It's almost like you two are the same alignment???

oh ... right.

I FORGOT TO CONSIDER THAT TTH MIGHT BE SCUM

HURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

It's things like this that make me think Red isn't paying any attention.

[West9]

Comment retracted.

I should stop posting when I'm tired.

I don't think that Red is paying that much attention.

But saying that he doesn't know who the Heartless hydra is composed of is stupid and I'm stupid for saying it.

[West9]

@mod Votecounts?

No, I'm scum-reading people who agreed with it but aren't doing enough with it or laying down the foundation to pressure people heavily like the system entails. That being said, I wonder why this makes me think that you're defending Maxwell? Please share with me your views on Maxwell, west.

Thanks for the clarification.
Mixed feelings about Max. There's been some recent things that are bad. Saying Miller is a scumread but that he shouldn't be shot and townreading Red just for activity stand out.

Red: Why did you want to sheep Nacho earlygame?

If dcl is here, I want to reask this:

And maybe I just trust the innocent-looking ones too much (I'll try to ignore this, but seriously I think this might be a problem for me), but Jeanne's obnoxiousness without ill will reads town a lot more strongly than Heartless's anger. I think it makes sense for them to be scum who don't want to be shot for silly reasons.

Why Vengeful specifically, then?

For that reason, I expect many mafia goons to be pretty demotivated (since they have only a very very minute impact on their win condition), and thus people who are active lurking and doing absolutely nothing else are probably decent candidates for goons, especially after the win condition was made a bit clearer.

This is the point where I bring up that the moment when the win condition was made clearer was exactly the moment when Vonflare stopped posting.

[West9]

THINGS ALL PLAYERS SHOULD BE DOING:

• Comment on Lucky getting shot after the weekend. Do you agree with this shot?
  
• Vote on the referendums in 466. If you have an additional case/comment on your vote, please post using the format to make linking easier.
  
• If your name is: West, millar, Perpetual Nonsense, or enomis, please post more/make more of an effort to engage with the readslist in 462 so that I can get a more comprehensive read on you. If you are on the scumlist and my read on you is incorrect, please also make more of an effort to interact with me and talk about my reads.

I would say "Yay" right now on the Lucky shot, but I'd like it if Nacho (or someone else with this suspecion) could further explain the "this doesn't fit with Lucky's meta" aspect of this scumread first.
Yay on the Vonflare shot.
Is the referendum on CB for shooting him or on putting him in the townpile?
(Nay on shooting CB)
(Yay on a CB townread. I haven't been paying a whole lot of attention to him, but the reasoning Nacho gives makes sense, and skimming the ISO doesn't reveal anything egregious.)
Nay on shooting Wanderer. Julian's reasoning isn't that great, and I think she's likely town.

I'll go more indepth into the readlist later (trying to divide this homework so that I don't get overwhelmed). I also feel like there's a lot of good stuff in 502, so I'll dive into that as well.

@West - Why do you think I'd be a good person to help you fathom out RC?

Eh. It's kind of not relevant anymore. I was just getting "Sweet Dreams ChaosOmega/TMJ"-esque scumvibes from RC and Lucky at that point. Wanted to talk to you about them, but I don't feel that way anymore.

[West9]

proddodge

Also, I promised I'd return to the Nacho readlist and I do want to iron some things out with it, but I don't have the time to do that atm, so I should say that I agree with the gist of it and don't have any huge "no this thing or this read is completely 100% wrong" issues with it.

[West9]

I said that I would comment on a couple of things, and that sounds super boring and probably not very helpful at this point.

I've been reading through the game since Nacho's death, and there's not really any pressing questions I have toward anyone, which is frustrating.

I think that RC v Heartless is TvT. CB and Pablito are probably town as well.

Vonflare is still the scummiest player.

Vote: Vonflare

Julian and PN would probably round out my shotlist. I liked Heartless' point on PN, and 531 is bad.

[West9]

WE do hope that the person you want to be shot is on the left.
WE already know who WE will shoot if WE get the gun.

Who?

[West9]

Lol his entire case against me is "he said 'stop saying shoot me and get down to scumhunting' too late"

Phone post so I can't quote him but I'll assemble a case once I get to a computer.

For now I'll VOTE: hobbes avatar guy

That's not the whole case:
Readlist was worthless and contributed to the "scum faking useless activity" vibe.
Your response to me asking you a question was an immediate scumread.
Your excuses for that "hey town let's get to work" post were terrible.
Youve clearly been strategically lurking since early D1.

WE do hope that the person you want to be shot is on the left.
WE already know who WE will shoot if WE get the gun.

Who?

Right now, WE would shoot CB.

Why? (pedit - ninjad)
And the first quote says a different thing than the latest one. You already know not only that you WOULD shoot him, but also that you WILL shoot him?

[West9]

Why is CB being townread, again? look below, where he doesn't clarify the good and the bad he sees in each player.

Yes he does. That post is an update of a previous readslist (337) and everything that is different in this readlist is cleanly explained.

And if you think he's being townread for shitty reasons, that's fine, but how does that by itself turn into a scumread?

Following the crowd with the Von read first, and then US. I Do like that you initiated discussions with US earlier. But you have settled on the three 'Easiest' targets. All with considerable amount of pressure on them. No bueno!

Buddy, the CROWD has been following ME on this Vonflare scumread, so I don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Nice try at a misrep, though.
And I'm not hiding the fact that those other scumreads started from me following the crowd. I like what the crowd has been saying regarding yourself and Julian.

VOTE: West9

FOR GREATER JUSTICE!

So, now you'd shoot me instead of CB? That was fast.

[West9]

prodge

[West9]

I want to see those on the list to comment on whether they agree with this plan or not. I also want those not on the list to comment on whether they think following Nacho's idea of a "do not shoot" list.

I wouldn't shoot or advocate shooting any of the people currently on the list. I see where Max is coming from with the whole "declaring people 'town forever' is a bad idea," but I don't really think that's what anybody's advocating. Plus, it's not like anybody has any power to strictly enforce anything other than their own shot.

And in return we barely looked back on any reads on Victor but kept pressing our day1 cases. Yes, me too. I'm tired now, just got home from a party where bbq and alcohol were involved, but I'll look into this shit when I'm sober and have time.

Anything come out of this?

Jeanne and Lucky seem only interested in pestering for a shot to fulfill their vigilante fantasie

This is false about Jeanne btw..

Oh she had that. I thought all she posted was hello.

BTW, if you want to know, she lurks in all of the games i have with her. And she site-flakked.

Why are you defending her?

Good leadership implies getting the whole crowd to act in a pro-town manner and I have no idea what else it could mean.

"The whole crowd to act in a pro-town manner"
Even the mafia? That part of the crowd that makes up half of the crowd? You sure have high expectations for leaders.

for scum flubber who falls on his ass and then tries to bluster his way out...

^This is how I'm currently reading this argument. Someone should explain what "townflubber" is.

[West9]

Quick post to answer pablito's questions:

I know that I have boring townreads, but I've gotten the most genuine scumhunt-y feeling from CB, RC, and Heartless. Like I said, I wouldn't shoot them.

Top scumreads are Vonflare and PN.

[West9]

Yes even the mafia, even if its less so than the town. Making the mafia vote like pablito was pushing for made them act in a pro-town manner because it gave town more information to find them with.

Sorry to respond to a question with a question, but: You mean the way he's making them vote as gunbearer?

[West9]

Yes even the mafia, even if its less so than the town. Making the mafia vote like pablito was pushing for made them act in a pro-town manner because it gave town more information to find them with.

Sorry to respond to a question with a question, but: You mean the way he's making them vote as gunbearer?

Even before he was a gunbearer

Mmkay. You asked what standards had to do with anything. I agree with Heartless about your thinking of pablito as a good gunbearer, and about how it kind of came out of nowhere and seemed weird. Your answer to this question makes it clear that it's not the blatant contradiction I thought it'd be, though. I'm gonna sit on this one & think about it.

Nah, I'm not shooting

julien

suzune

.

Why not? Is it still because you want replacement friction to settle down?

WE should shoot flubbernugget and if flubbernugget is scum, WE should shoot Jeanne, Wanderer and CB

Your vote is still on me. Why is your vote still on me? Why aren't you explaining why your vote is on me? How come you still haven't explained your CB scumread?

[West9]

WE do hope that the person you want to be shot is on the left.
WE already know who WE will shoot if WE get the gun.

^At this point, it's obvious that this wasn't at all true. Why'd you even say it?

[West9]

Sorry for the triple post, but Suzune's entrance post just read to me as off and I wanted to parse through it and find out why that was.

When I started reading this I thought it was clear that he was mafia.

The evidence you provide after this claim is kind of wishy-washy, "I'm afraid this might be playstyle"-y stuff. What did you see that lead you to project the read with such force and clarity here? ALSO: Your interactions with CB don't make it seem like you're this sure about him being scum.

Others who have caught my eye as being potentially mafia are Feirei and millar. They seem to be quite inactive and their posts add little to the game. In a game like this the town might want to lurk, however it is not protown to at least aid in investigation.

How come Feirei and Miller in particular? What makes them different from other lurkers, like Lucky, Jeanne, and vonflare?

By this logic, as long as the shot is made then who cares the result. However, while killing more people does limit the margin of error on the hands of the gunbearer, it does not really aid the town.

This is a really weird and specific claim. What posts lead to to this conclusion?

For someone who seems to not care who dies and who lives, it makes me wonder why he does not claim to not care if he gets shot since he will then have the gun.

Again, it's weird that you leave people like Lucky and Jeanne out of this analysis.

You just comment generally on things rather then look for specific details

I'm curious as to why you are harping on CB about this, but are totally okay with this being your heartless read:

As far as heartless goes, I think they are probably town. This is the first game I have ever played with a hydra so I have no experience. So going just off of their posting style and the things they say, I think they seem pretty town.

[West9]

How come Feirei and Miller in particular? What makes them different from other lurkers, like Lucky, Jeanne, and vonflare?

I apologise, large game and I did not comment on everyone. They were just people who's interactions have caught my eye. Simple as that. Lurkers did not catch my eye because they were quiet. I did already comment on my not writing anything for Jeanne. I did not realise that everyone was so fixated on that spot.

It seemed like lurking was what you were suspecting Feirei and Miller for. I wanted to know what made them stand out to you, as opposed to these other people who have been lurking

In post 826, Suzune wrote:
By this logic, as long as the shot is made then who cares the result. However, while killing more people does limit the margin of error on the hands of the gunbearer, it does not really aid the town.

This is a really weird and specific claim. What posts lead to to this conclusion?

Two categories the first being people that he mildly suggest but never backs up
post 279, post 355, post 448,

The second being impatience and quite frustrated reads:post 390, post 575, post 683

I mean, my opinion on the situations surrounding the posts are also factored in. However, in my opinion that is what it looked like.

I don't see how any of these quotes led to the conclusion that Flubber is ambivalent about shooting town.

Again, it's weird that you leave people like Lucky and Jeanne out of this analysis.

Why are you so fixated on those two? I already commented on Jeanne. Again, since I read the game and took notes, they were not really worth mentioning because they did so little so far that I did not have a good read on them.

I misread the quote that I was responding to here. Sorry about that. Thought you were saying that Flubber was asking for the gun.

Meanwhile I've made several attempts to interact with you where I thought you were wrong and instead of working with me to get us on the same page you just let TTH pms all over the thread.

I agree with Heartless about how your buddying of pablito felt off. How come you aren't being a total dickweed to me? Don't just leave me out because you can't think of any sexist insults to hurl my way.

Pablito's shortlist

Perpetual Nonsense:

My main problem with them comes in their ISO after 585, which seems to be the point when they start really getting into the game (a lot of the posts before that were prod-dodges and "we'll do a non-filler later" post.)

585 is when they begin their whole line of "scumreading CB" posts. The attempts at explanations for this CB scumread are shallow: 642 points to an apparently "obvious" scumpost, while 662 asks why he's being townread, but doesn't present a reason for such a solid scumread. At this point, the "we will shoot CB" stance disappears, as a vote for me (663) and a stated desire to shoot flubber (829) follow.

I've been trying to ask PN questions about all of this jumping around, and about her incorrect statement about how I am "following the crowd" on the vonflare read. Originally, they say "I Do like that you initiated discussions with US earlier," (662) but all of the most recent responses haven't indicated that they have a desire to continue those discussions.

Their whole recent play seems desperate, especially with all of the jumping around on reads, the refusal to explain reads (the ending of 662 even tries to pull a whole "we're being sparse and secretive on purpose but we just don't want to explain why" bit), and the active lurking.

Enomis:

Still want to know why he was defending(?) Jeanne with false statements in 717 and 719.

His complete ambivalence about this game is distracting while reading this ISO. 450 and 797 are nearly identical. He hasn't changed his reads at all.

All of his scumreads have popped out of nowhere (Victor in 514, and PN and miller in 805) The Lucky scumread shows up in 565, and that feels more natural, but then it disappears for nearly 300 pages before popping back up in 820.

The conclusion that I'm coming to with this ISO is that there are better shots than enomis, I think (PN being one of them), but I'd like him at the very least to talk about his attitude towards this game. He just really seems like he doesn't want to play or engage at all, and I don't know if that's sincere or faked.


So, shot preference: PN over Enomis.

Also, I feel like I should share this now, as being on this shortlist means that there's a decent enough chance of me getting shot: Pablito really seemed to have a change in heart about his scumreads after getting the gun, and I can't say if that's going to happen to me or not, but I'm pretty sure that if I get shot, I'm going to shoot vonflare within a day or two of getting the gun.

[West9]

So, shot preference: PN over Enomis.

Also, I feel like I should share this now, as being on this shortlist means that there's a decent enough chance of me getting shot: Pablito really seemed to have a change in heart about his scumreads after getting the gun, and I can't say if that's going to happen to me or not, but I'm pretty sure that if I get shot, I'm going to shoot vonflare within a day or two of getting the gun.

West9 - how do you feel that I've had a change in heart about my scumreads and what do you think about that? I'm curious to hear more about that from you. Also, thank you for telling me your target if you have the gun.

It's mostly this post that stood out to me:

While I have posted a list that Heartless copied, I am not following that during my stint. That was a list I made that I would've followed if I were not the GB. As the GB, my mindset may change. When I was just a regular townie, there were stances that I took that attempted to appeal to the GB.

"Change of heart" might have been the wrong phrase, but "change of mindset" certainly seems appropriate.

Also, I'm not sure how your specific scumreads overlaps with your shotlist, but it doesn't overlap that much with who you were giving scumreads before you got that gun. I imagine that's because having the gun changed your perspective and made you think of different uses for shots, as the shotlist now contains PN, a person you were scumreading; enomis, a lurker who you didn't want shot; and me, someone whose read was conditional on others (650). Feel free to correct me if this is not the case.

West9 - Okay, so you advocate PN over enomis. What are the other better shots than enomis? Also, what do you think of Maxwell?

I'm aware that I'm beating a dead horse at this point, but I would like to see scum get shot, and I really think that vonflare is scum. He and PN were the two people I had in mind when I wrote that there are better shots than enomis.

I find Max's reasoning for certain townreads and certain shot-advocacy positions awkward, recent examples being his insta-townread on Suzane and his pretty blatant co-opting of my townreads. I think that this slot could be scum-awkward or town-awkward. RC talked a while ago about how it'd be really easy for scumMax to mold his behavior in order for him to not stand out, and I think he is outspoken enough on certain things (his take on PN in 661 and his opposition to a do-not-shoot list, in particular) for me to be leaning town on him.

[West9]

Well the idea is that when I tried to talk to tth she melted down twice and I have no idea why

Naaaaahhh that's not what happened. You're the one that broke down during the line of questioning, and now you're trying to pass it off as "Anti not being able to control his crazy woman," which is disgusting.

[West9]

Town Win Condition:
Town wins when they remove all mafia or when it is 1 vs 1 with mafia. (If it is Vengeful, it's a draw)

Mafia Win Condition:
Mafia wins when they remove all town or when the last living town player is gun-bearer (Mafia must outrun town strength)

It seems like both sides reach their win condition in a 1v1 situation, whether or not it's vengeful v town or goon v town. Who wins in this scenario?

Well the idea is that when I tried to talk to tth she melted down twice and I have no idea why

Naaaaahhh that's not what happened. You're the one that broke down during the line of questioning, and now you're trying to pass it off as "Anti not being able to control his crazy woman," which is disgusting.

1) The attitude is literally right there for everyone to see so you've got balls to post this.

2) You're so disgusted with this you're scum reading me and not reporting me. Interesting.

1)

I don't like trying to walk through every little nuance of your bullshit just to see you throw a temper tantrum but if I don't people are going to be more likely to trust what you say about me because you and anti are good respected players and I'm not

This panic-fueled post is the break down. This is what doesn't coincide with your "you were being an asshole while I was trying to work with you" argument."

2) What you said wasn't abusive, it was pathetic. I'm not a person who'll use a report button for something other than some real hateful shit.

vonflare, Lucky2u, millar13 have been prodded.

Scum team right here.

QFT

Don't think so, at least on Millar. He siteflaked.

Do you really think that Lucky was saying that he thinks those three people are all scum?

I understand your offense with the comment. I don't understand west's offense.

Sorry to briefly reopen this, but: Two things. The first was the nature of the comment, and I hope you can understand why. It's not the kind of shit I come to mafia to read. The second was the implication that I'm faking my reaction, which you still seem to hold. I'm not in whatever sort of "All's fair in love and mafia" camp that would find that sort of lying to be acceptable, and I hate that anyone would assume that of me.

Anyways, Heartless' list is decent, but only vonflare and PN are scum on it, I think.

The first and second parts of this sentence do not make sense together.

[West9]

A quick readthrough of MP's iso says he was scumreading RedCoyote, deep city lights, PN, and Vonflare. That means that these people are most likely town, I know I'm town. We can POE from there.

I so, so don't think that this is true. Why do you think he wasn't bussing?

indifference, impatience...

can't say Max's flip is shocking - WE found his wordiness to be a hindrance when evaluating the slot, so our read was - Null. Well, that can be said for the walls WE have encountered thus far. WE skip walls.

OUR preference is non-traditional - shoot from the HEART. Itchy fingers, target and only THEN feel contrition

Why haven't you answered the questions I asked you in 851 or 852?

vonflare, Lucky2u, millar13 have been prodded.

Scum team right here.

QFT

Don't think so, at least on Millar. He siteflaked.

Do you really think that Lucky was saying that he thinks those three people are all scum?

^I'm afraid this question got lost

As for West, his towniness should be evident and I can't see why anyone thinks he is scummy. *shrug*

I honestly thought that this is true, especially when nobody was advocating for my shot when I was on the last shotlist, but after Max's flip, I'm gonna need you to tell me why you think I'm town.

@pablito I'll get to the shotlist in a little bit. I still need to parse through Maxwell's and shotlisters' ISOs more

[West9]

Also, quick thing:

I think the game makes a lot more sense letting go of a Flubber scum read. I think this fits together better: vonflare, Perpetual Nonsense, Lucky2u, West9, Titus, MaxwellPuckett, millar13

Anyways, Heartless' list is decent, but only vonflare and PN are scum on it, I think. Lucky maybe, at least Lucky is better than a Millar shot. West9 and Titus are fine. I can't remember who Titus replaced but if it's one of the lurkers I really don't care, I don't think Titus is scum.

^This being Max's reaction to Heartless' list makes me think that Heartless is right on multiple counts here.

[West9]

prodge. currently sick and taking finals, so i might be a bit less active for the next couple of days. planning on commenting on pab's shotlist tomorrow.

[West9]

Vonflare:

vonflare comrs back bc ppl said he scum slipped

^Agreement with the scumminess of this is the only (non-Max-related) thing that I'd add to my vonflare read. Vonflare hasn't done anything to change my mind on any of points that I brought up in 641.

Suzane:

Never responded to my 925, and most of the things that I brought up there and in earlier posts still make me suspicious. The CB case was pretty weak and she backed down on the intensity very quickly; she said that she suspected Feirei and Miller for lurking, while ignoring other lurkers like vonflare, Lucky, and Jeanne; and the link between the evidence she presents on Flubber and her suspicion of him doesn't make sense. As for later posts, 863 is uncomfortably defensive, and the PN townread switches really fast (895, 1007 and 1045). There's enough self-defensiveness and weak, flip-floppy cases here for me to think that this slot might be vengeful.

Titus:

A lot of playstyle stuff that's not the easiest to parse through, with some simple reads and shotlist recs thrown in there. Only one thing (besides the whole "townreading me" thing) that stuck out to me is this little thing: I may be stupid, but 941 bothers me because in my last game, which was the first game I played with Titus, someone who knew Titus' meta correctly fingered scumTitus because she had a real awkward reaction to a joke, and that seems to be exactly what happened here.

About West:

Last time I was on the shortlist, I said that I'd shoot vonflare really quickly if I was shot. The Maxwell flip has made me a little more paranoid about my reads on both him and PN, so that is no longer my plan for shooting. I'm more likely now to do the whole "gather reads, make a shortlist, gather reactions, shoot" pattern of pab and Nacho.

About Maxwell:

his main scumtargets being my main scumtargets (vonflare and PN) make me think that, at the very least, neither are vengeful, and it's more than it was before likely that one of them isn't scum at all. I'm still sure that one of them is scum, I think that both of them are scum, but I think it's unlikely that either are vengeful.

In terms of final shot recommendations:
I still think that vonflare is the best chance to hit scum, and he's probably the safest shot, but I think that Suzane would be the best chance of hitting vengeful, and is probably the best shot. Titus comes in a relatively distant third.

[West9]

West9 - You have your plans, but I'd also like to hear your plans if you think that anyone during D3 was trying to buddy up to you during the shortlist phase.

I'm not quite sure what this question is asking, or what you mean by "my plans." If the above post doesn't act as an answer to this, let me know what you want me to respond to.

[West9]

I didn't say you backed down on the read, but on the intensity.

[West9]

Your plans of commenting on shortlist and looking back at Maxwell. However, I'd still like to hear from you who you may have felt was buddying up to you during D3 during the shortlist phase of D2.

Oh, got it. I assume you're talking about this post I made to Titus:

I honestly thought that this is true, especially when nobody was advocating for my shot when I was on the last shotlist, but after Max's flip, I'm gonna need you to tell me why you think I'm town.

In all honesty, I said this just off the combination of my memories of nobody wanting be to be shot yesterday (pedit: AKA the lack of a "Pro-WestShot" category in the list below" and Maxwell's pushing of my top two scumspects. I had to go back and re-read the thread in order to find any specific instances.

Anti-Westshot

Wanderer - "I would to move west9 to my do-not-shoot list"
CB - "

he also has a townie mindset...there is a chance that West9 is a vengeful busting his goon partner Vonflare."
Titus - "I like his ISO and I don't see why he's up for being shot at the moment."

Maxwell

- "I don't think that West should be in that list."

Pro-NotWestShot / Pro-OtherPersonShot

Flubber - "I want vonflare pn and heartless in that order"
Kari (not an official advocacy)- "vonflare and PN still aint doing shit but prodge and post useless shit. getting tired of their bs."
Enomis (not an official advocacy)- "gut on PN...nothing else."
Heartless - "i would consider west9 a lot better of a suspect w/: a max scum flip OR a flubber town flip...add 'titus scum flip' to this list."

Not-exclusively-but-still-sort-of-Pro-WestShot

Suzane (prefers EnomisShot) - "West does not really stand out to me...He is not doing anything particularly town and his lack of active hunting make him kind of scummy."
Red - "I'm fine with any of those shots."

Looking at this, really the only Anti-WestShot person who I think might be scum is Titus (excluding Max, of course). I think scum are more likely going to be in the Pro-NotWestShot of {Flubber, Kari, Enomis}, who weren't buddying me exactly, still had scumreads on that "Vonflare/PN" combo that Max advocated.

To kind of boil my thoughts on this period down (p-edit: sorry for the mad scribbles of my mind which follow), there are two competing, contradictory paranoias I have that followed the Max flip. One is that scum is trying to get vonflare or PN shot because one of them town and that they're going to use that to paint me as scum (or because neither is vengeful and they want bussing points), and the other is that they're advocating for a NotWestShot because I'm really right about something and they don't want me to have the gun (which is silly and self-absorbed but there's a part of me that really thinks it's true)

What's keeping me from falling into a WIFOM black hole is how sure I am that there is scum in the vonfalre/PN duo, and how simple and compelling I find the idea of Suzane-vengeful.

[West9]

@vonflare
@Titus
If you're town and you have the gun tomorrow, what's your process for shooting the gun and who'd you most likely shoot?

Should I take this to mean that you're not shooting Suzune? (also, Suzune - sorry for misspelling your name a bunch)

[West9]

It really is an awful defense.

West starts the game jumping on the fact that I said "Can we stop the 'shoot meeeeee' shenanigans and get down to scumhunting?". He says that this is scummy becuase "There was a while between the last "shoot me" post and this one". It looks a lot like he was trying to find something to scumread me about. this is a weak case, if not just made-up.

You know, I've been asked about this before, and I answered it:

Spoiler:

My thinking on vonflare is that people are making too much of the ninja kerfuffle, as I can't see how that matters, but whatever.

Here's my perspective on Vonflare: the whole "hey, guys, you should stop asking to be shot and start scumhunting!" comment was really irrelevant at the time he made it, which makes me suspect that he's trying to do a whole "fake town rallying voice" thing (I also get a similar insincere "here, let me help the town get it's act together!" vibe from his readlist).

It is ridiculously scummy and desperate that you didn't include this in your ISO-bomb of me.

He then jumps on an error I made about one of my posts. I mistakenly said that I was ninja'd, when, in fact, I was not. I explained that that was a mistake on my part

It was not a mistake, and you did not explain that. You lied because you didn't think I'd check the timing.

Then he votes me for this, as well as my "worthless readlist"

This was the first readlist of the game, and he decides it's "worthless". its better than anything he was doing! he was just tunneling me with a weak case.

You know, I've been asked about this before, and I answered it:

Spoiler:

That post just read to me as an earlygame attempt to look useful while not being at all useful, and your justification for it doesn't persuade me otherwise. Same with this worthless readlist.

How is that readlist worthless? when most haven't even posted one - which is more worthless than a readlist that is apparently worthless?

Because Vonflare himself said it was worthless (222). Also, it's not like options are confined "post a readlist" or "don't post a readlist."

It is ridiculously scummy and desperate that you didn't include this in your ISO-bomb of me.

That's not the whole case:
Readlist was worthless and contributed to the "scum faking useless activity" vibe.
Your response to me asking you a question was an immediate scumread.
Your excuses for that "hey town let's get to work" post were terrible.
Youve clearly been strategically lurking since early D1.

1) first readslist of the game, at the start of day 1, is worthless. how do you define the worth of my readslist? I was giving my opinions and gut feelings on the players, and you decide that me sharing my opinions is 'worthless'. Should I not have posted my opinions? Would that have had more 'worth'?

2)What? so you are scumreading me because i was scumreading you?

3)What does this mean? is he actually implying that i was lying about thinking i was ninja'd? He's just adding random things to the list so that it looks like he has legitimate reasons to scumread me.

4)strategically lurking? i post when I can. If i'm not near a computer, I don't post! and, actually, if i's strategically lurking, then

so are you!

I have 60 posts, while you have 41, which is almost 20 more posts then you.

1) See above.
2) Finally, you find a legitimate thing that I haven't clarified. This point should read "Your response to me asking you a question was an immediate scumread instead of answering the question."
3) You know, I've been asked about this before, and blah blah blah blah blah

Spoiler:

When I questioned him on why he thought it was relevant, he did three things. A) Immediately scumread me B) Said that he was ninjad and C) said that he thought the current discussion was still about the whole "shoot me" thing.

Being ninjad for twenty straight minutes seems false enough, but even if it's true, being ninjad at all doesn't excuse an irrelevant comment, especially when you consider this definition of ninjaing that Nacho gave:

One question: what is 'being ninjad'?

whenever you post and then the forum is like "someone else already posted! would you like to post something else now that you see their post?"

B and C can't coexist as excuses, so I don't think either of them are true.

4) You're being silly.

[West9]

Shit, I missed some things.

Much , much later in the game:

Vonflare is still the scummiest player.

Vote: Vonflare

with no new reasoning. His only case against me is that I said "lets scumhunt" too late, and my first readslist was "worthless"

Did some timeline research.
314 is when I give a full explanation of my read on you.
624 is the quote you give, where I provide "no new reasoning."
Now, here are the posts you made in that 310 post interval:

Spoiler:

Prodge

I like coyotes 375 and maxwells response in 377, they look town.

Heartless, why do you think maxwell and coyote are scum?

Hey, I was busy over the long weekend. What did I miss?

ok victor is the new king.

Who are your scumreads?

Beetlejuice

ITS SHOWTIME!

This was the weak shit you "contributed" during that time. Nothing here could possible have made you think "West sure will need to re-evaluate his read on me after I post this!"

In addition,

VOTE: West9

FOR GREATER JUSTICE!

So, now you'd shoot me instead of CB? That was fast.

Quick post to answer pablito's questions:

I know that I have boring townreads, but I've gotten the most genuine scumhunt-y feeling from CB, RC, and Heartless. Like I said, I wouldn't shoot them.

Top scumreads are Vonflare and PN.

Perpetual nonsense votes for west, then west immediately adds PN to his scumreads. weird.

I

totally

agree with you that context if for pussies, but wow. First of all, the word "immediately" is pretty misleading, given that there were, like, 150 posts in between the two quotes of mine that you present. And also, you completely cut out this exchange to make my "you're voting for me and that's weird" comment look defensive:

Spoiler:

Julian and PN would probably round out my shotlist. I liked Heartless' point on PN, and 531 is bad.

WE do hope that the person you want to be shot is on the left.
WE already know who WE will shoot if WE get the gun.

Who?

WE do hope that the person you want to be shot is on the left.
WE already know who WE will shoot if WE get the gun.

Who?

Right now, WE would shoot CB.

WE do hope that the person you want to be shot is on the left.
WE already know who WE will shoot if WE get the gun.

Who?

Right now, WE would shoot CB.

Why? (pedit - ninjad)
And the first quote says a different thing than the latest one. You already know not only that you WOULD shoot him, but also that you WILL shoot him?

WE do hope that the person you want to be shot is on the left.
WE already know who WE will shoot if WE get the gun.

Who?

Other head believes PoE places CB as scum, along with the others listed. WE are definitely thinking OUR scumreads are leaning scum, based off more than PoE. The dreaded Gut reads! WE don't feel our reads are perfect or accurate, since with all the lurking there are interactions WE are not sure of. Plus, WE had to Rush to our explanations! Funniest thing of the day is Gaiden explaining how to spot Associative tells! That guy's got some BRAIN!

VOTE: West9

FOR GREATER JUSTICE!

Why is CB being townread, again? look below, where he doesn't clarify the good and the bad he sees in each player.

Yes he does. That post is an update of a previous readslist (337) and everything that is different in this readlist is cleanly explained.

And if you think he's being townread for shitty reasons, that's fine, but how does that by itself turn into a scumread?

Following the crowd with the Von read first, and then US. I Do like that you initiated discussions with US earlier. But you have settled on the three 'Easiest' targets. All with considerable amount of pressure on them. No bueno!

Buddy, the CROWD has been following ME on this Vonflare scumread, so I don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Nice try at a misrep, though.
And I'm not hiding the fact that those other scumreads started from me following the crowd. I like what the crowd has been saying regarding yourself and Julian.

VOTE: West9

FOR GREATER JUSTICE!

So, now you'd shoot me instead of CB? That was fast.

^This, admittedly, is a skimmed version of the exchange, because I responded to some things they didn't direct at me, but still. The point is that vonflare hates context and that's super lame.

Also, post where west defends max:

@AA9 - We're getting unofficial vote counts, right? Seems like that hasn't been happening.

Did I ask bad questions about Lucky and Red or is it just that nobody knows them?
More likely to endorse a Lucky shot if those are still the only two candidates.

Just as much as others are suspecting wanderer for not doing scum-hunting, I'm getting Maxwell as being half-assed scum-hunting. Which is why I asked the question of a voting system. If I felt Maxwell was pure town, I'd've wanted Maxwell to actually try to implement something. But I don't get the sense that Maxwell wants that. So prove me wrong Maxwell and force everyone to look at certain players through some type of referendum or focused-voting system.

You lost me here. Are you scumreading everyone who isn't suggesting a voting system? If not, why hold Max up to that standard? Or am I completely misreading this?

Do you have any point to make about this post or...?

[West9]

Did not expect Vonflare to be vengeful. Those earlygame interactions are now going to be extra fun to read.

I'm interested to know how many people agree with and are going to advocate pab's "Shoot west before endgame" plan, but I'm probably not the person who should lead that discussion.

I hate 1153 so so so so much. It's PN's equivalent to 1102.

As for von, I really think he's unreadable borderline scummy regardless of alignment here. As are WE thus far for the most part.

Why are you calling yourself borderline scummy?
More interesting question: Why are you calling yourself "unreadable"?

I agree about HEartless being town because of how brazen the slot has been in pushing some lynch candidates as deeply as they have (even disregarding that one flipped scum), that early in the game. I think their confidence can be offputting and chalked up as sheer arrogance. all depends on the way how you slice it

Are you giving Heartless shit explicitly because one of the people she was pushing turned out to be scum? Why?
Look at that, no mention of me in this whole post. I can't possibly be one of the boring people you're talking about. It looks like PN couldn't figure out a way to vote for me anymore without tying themselves to scumVon. Awesome.

That was a preview of :effort: if/when we become gunbearer. I feel like it only comes out when I feel I'm on the verge of being shot. Survival instincts, except unlike normal mechanics we don't actually die-die-die. MWAHAHA crooked laugh

I'd probably wait 2-3 days to make a shot. More would make me CRAZY. The fear of being wrong about a shot isn't there yet (it will be like an adrenaline rush trying to think about who to shoot - will be fun but stressful), until getting the gun actually becomes reality. that's why nacho and pab holding it for 2 weeks is pretty patient to say the least

I'm reading to much into this, but there are real "rushed, trying to prevent myself from getting shot" vibes from this post. The lack of the standard "WE" personal pronoun is scary and uncomfortable, and the presence of "I" and "me" is even scarier. It reads like a fake smile.
Oh, and also, the sentiment in this post is garbage. Her scumWest read and her scumCB read have gone by without presentation of any sort of proof, and she decides to pop in with "This is what my POSTING STYLE will be like if I'm gunbearer."

MP's scumreads: RedCoyote, deep city lights, PN, and Vonflare
Vonflare's Scumreads: Enomis, West, Flubber, Jeanne, Lucky2u

I'd be willing to bet a good percentage of these players are town.

You really just have no interest in analyzing interactions, do you?

[West9]

MP's scumreads: RedCoyote, deep city lights, PN, and Vonflare
Vonflare's Scumreads: Enomis, West, Flubber, Jeanne, Lucky2u

I'd be willing to bet a good percentage of these players are town.

You really just have no interest in analyzing interactions, do you?

I haven't been playing the full game. Do you disagree with my assesment?

I mean, maybe? "A good percentage of these players are town" doesn't mean a whole lot. I was just saying that this is the second time you've looked at shallow scumreads of scum and have gotten shallow conclusions from them.

[West9]

Suzune's probably my favorite shot now that PN and vonflare are dead.

Wow, Lucky2u is BAAAAAAD.

First criticizing someone for offering pro-town advice, now shooting someone just because they are a hydra/good/A specific player(just to know who they are).

I don't see how this is scum, as opposed to maybe just bored and dumb town.

[West9]

Okay but like

town can be dumb too

how is he scum.

[West9]

The options aren't "lucky or random shot"

[West9]

Oh my god, Monkey.

I'm asking you to tell me why lucky is scum and you literally can't.

[West9]

I'm here. Sorry I've been gone recently.

because titus, as scum, USUALLY doesn't bus. and titus-scum has some markers that i look for that are distinctly not there.

Scum-titus just won a game manipulating this meta. It was the first/only game I've played with her, so many people said this, and her team glided to victory. I get that meta is important, but I'm so cautious of this thinking right now.

Yes, the enomis slot is STILL scum.

You haven't really elaborated on this read in a while. You should do that.

First, there's the plain fact that Titus has advocated in some form or other for every flipped scum (minus Max) death so far. Every time I've seen Titus as scum (Making Friends, Signs and Void), she takes really strained angles to protect her buddies and push for town lynches. Reckless bussing doesn't seem to be in the Titus-scum play book; do you have any evidence otherwise?

See above. The game in question is Mini 1652

Go ahead, shoot him. He wants to shoot me so it's a win win. Either he is scum and you shoot right or he's town and I'll be getting the gun next.

Is this also why you're advocating a heartless shot?

I want to get more into the mix of things before I start advocating shots.

[West9]

Gah, I'm here. I'm sorry I had to be prodded.

[West9]

ugh god, this game is so much harder to get into now that everyone I majorly suspected is dead.

I'm just gonna barf out some random thoughts:
I still wouldn't shoot Wanderer or Heartless. Don't remember much of what CB was doing.
Titus might be scum? The easier explanation to her being right about von, pn, lucky, and monkey is probably just that she's town, but i'm still not completley convinced that isn't bussing. Trying to thing about whether someone replacing into Jeanne-slot would have been "boned" or not.
Replacement-reason spec is boring. Titus' theory about her being pushed in the scumchat is kinda paranoid, but I come out of the interactions between ika and Titus thinking that Titus is more town, especially since Titus was pushing Lucky while ika seemed to be distracting from that shot.
Who else is here? Kari? I don't remember much about Kari.

[West9]

Titus might be scum? The easier explanation to her being right about von, pn, lucky, and monkey is probably just that she's town...

Pfff okay, really sorry about this, but I made this list of people Titus pushed based off a misread of what Wanderer said in the post above, but a lot of this is wrong. She pushed vonflare post-maxflip, monkey a little bit during the lucky/monkey back-and-forth, and Lucky as an aside to ika. Should of read the iso before posting that last post. I don't feel as strongly about the "easiest explanation = titus is town" thing now.

[West9]

I'm really curious who you think is ika's buddy.

There was still 2 scum before I asked you who ika's scumbuddy supposedly is, who did you suspect before me?

Titus, I know you're scumreading Wanderer, but I'd like the answer to these questions as well.

I am not worried because one of the best town hydras has the gun.

Heartless has the gun because scum gave them the gun. Why aren't you at least a little worried about that?

[West9]

Kari, let's start easy. Who are your scumreads?

West and one of ika and wanderer are probably it.

I usually inquire about scumreads on me, but Heartless was given the gun, so I have to ask: Whyyyyyyyy?

[West9]

Kari, let's start easy. Who are your scumreads?

West and one of ika and wanderer are probably it.

I

don't

usually inquire about scumreads on me, but Heartless was given the gun, so I have to ask: Whyyyyyyyy?

EBWOP

[West9]

You don't think that Heartless was picked because scum thought theyd shoot wrong?

[West9]

Not in this instance. They have a vengeful goon, if they can push a misshot (me) or the vengeful they remove obvtown.

I mean, scum successfully pushing a misshot would mean that Heartless would have shot wrong.

I really think it's likely that scum thought Heartless would follow through on that list TTH made.

[West9]

Ika, do you think Titus is scum or what?

[West9]

Ika, do you think Titus is scum or what?

shes scum

Then why are you talking about "when she gets the gun"?

[West9]

You are not treating Titus like she's your only scumread. Or a like she's a scumread at all, really. You're breaking character in order to, what, teach her a lesson about vote count analysis?

[West9]

but, like, you are considering it, in your posts.

It's not a matter of me reading too much into it, it's a matter of you literally saying "if you are town" or "when (or if, I guess) you have the gun"

[West9]

Then what does it mean? Why use that kind of vocabulary at all if you're not even considering Titus to be town?

[West9]

im more then convinced shes scum, however i do not like aboslute speaking cus thats ego based play and i hate ego play. i have already told you that how titus is going about the game is scum oriented and that if shes town is a shitty town play.

does that make more sense?

Sort of, but also not really. Your read on Titus has been almost exactly "Titus is scum because Titus is scum." The only time you've really talked about her playstyle is criticizing her idea about the VCA thing (which seems really "out-of-game-y" and not something I'd expect you to focus right now), responding to Heartless' "list of townie things Titus has done" by basically saying "it was probably bussing," and asking Titus about her idea that scum is pushing her. None of this really is "how titus is going about the game in a scum oriented way" stuff.

[West9]

simple west: if i try to agure it she ends up looking better. im not going to agrue something thats going to make me loom like shit

yawwwwwwwwwn.

Kari and ika are probably the best shots.

[West9]

Quick correction about that first sentence, Heartless: I was the first person to push vonflare. He wasn't heavily scumread when I voted and questioned him during D1. It was my questioning that made him a universal scumread (as well as the scumslip, but that happened a while after). I was also pushing Lucky D1 when Nacho was considering it, but I didn't really follow through on that after it wasn't in that Lucky/RC dichotomy, so that's my bad.

[West9]

I still want Kari to tell me why I'm scum, and I want ika to tell me why Titus is scum.

[West9]

That's a little bit of revisionist history. :S
He was already in the middle of falling on his ass on the back-and-forth with Nacho when you voted him and Flubber was calling bullshit on the reads list.

I guess, but the point is that it's much more revisionist to say that I only hopped on vonflare when he was "heavily scumread."

[West9]

Sorry, heartless, didn't see that instruction. Top two townreads are Wanderer and CB. Titus is somewhere in the middle.

@Titus

You said ika tunnels you every game. Is not explaining that read consistent with his meta?

[West9]

pdodge

[West9]

Well at least I don't have to make the lylo shot.

[West9]

ika, who is scum with titus.

[West9]

I like that order a lot.

Shoot ika

[West9]

gg scum. this game was pretty fun.

[West9]

man good thing the game is over so ika can stop needlessly harping on titu-oh

[West9]

I like the addition of vengeful goons to this set
-up but think the win-cons still need work

Any ideas?

The wincon needs to be that mafia win when their number is equal to the number of townies or nothing can prevent that from happening.

Current wincon is ridiculous, scum should have won this game three times over.

yup yup yup yup yup yup yup