Open 611 - Making Friends and Enemies (Game Over!)

[Alchemist21]

Sorry, I just got my role PM today. I never got a game start PM either, so I didn't know this had started. I'll read through in a bit.

[Alchemist21]

Sorry, I just got my role PM today.

...?
lol?

Mod error. He forgot the 21 at the end of my name when typing up the addressee.

[Alchemist21]

Besides, if Masons focus on towny players, while during the day phase we lynch scummy players it gives less spots for scum to hide in.
While if a scum can become super towny, and wont be lynched and Masons dont attempt to recruit them then they can easily coast until endgame undetected.
So i think this course of action will corner scum more easily.

This isn't specifically what your post said.

Your post was very much like fence sitting. You said they wouldn't be townie or scummy, but this is implying that players naturally scummy all the time.

You said they would lay under the radar, but isn't this also considered scummy? Your post is essentially a fluff (l
("Fluff" is what we call any and all irrelevant or simply unsubstantial talk during the day. Examples can be as little as "good job jailor" or as big as people having a full-on conversation about their favorite anime. The fact is, ToS is a game of strategy- not a chatroom. If you find someone with similar interests and want to talk to them, that's awesome. But please, add them after the game and discuss it somewhere else. Saying "gj jailor" or "omg vig why did you random shoot" may seem harmless, but when all 13 people in the game say it, you've just wasted 13 lines of chat to pretty much not do anything at all.) Seeing as your post is mainly useless.

This also can be a post to fall back on later

This fluff example was fluffier than anything Luna had said.

Also hi again!

[Alchemist21]

VOTE: Expedience

and post 105 has no real contents there. and is jsut anice potshot

This I agree with. Expedience just tried to undermine a common playstyle. It's hard to believe he wouldn't know better by now.

Also lol @Killthestory freaking out about gut reads. They're common as well around here, and for someone who was so captivated by MS on the ToS forums I thought you would be less critical of other methods.

[Alchemist21]

Fire looks Town to me, but I want his reads as well, even if they're weak.

VOTE: Expedience

His comment about Townhunting playstyle seems scum motivated to me. Maybe I'm being harsher here, but I would expect just a few months experience to be enough to know people Townhunt. I don't believe this is all new to him.

Kill, on the other hand, is new to this site, so I'm a little more lenient towards her criticism of gut reads. She pointed out an inconsistency in what Luna said earlier and called it fence-sitting. I agree there was an inconsistency, but think it was the result of oversight on Luna's part.

I think Luna has a good idea about this setup in that scum won't want to look too Town to avoid the masons' recruitment attempts, but generally scum aim for that middle ground anyway because it looks fishy when they're still alive on D5 and scum haven't killed them yet. Of course, the setup may be extra incentive for that so maybe we'll see scum trying to artifically stay in the nullreads.

Disclaimer: I've never played this setup before.

[Alchemist21]

so alch is town, TTH is town

god i need to make a,ist of pple so i dont forget

Lately I've started keeping notes on games. It's a lot easier to remember my thoughts on the players when I keep them written down and it's just been a tremendous help to me.

[Alchemist21]

Yes. With all-caps rainbows and everything.

[Alchemist21]

@Gob, who were you saying is handing out too many Townreads? It looks like you were talking to Luna when you said it, but in context looks like you could have been referring to Heartless as well.

[Alchemist21]

Why the vote?

Also, are you going to give the reads we asked for?

[Alchemist21]

At least explain the vote.

[Alchemist21]

Oh it's all clear to me now
Firebringer is....


A SUMMONER!

Everytime he votes a player, that player appears in the thread!!!!

Vedith already posted before Fire voted him though.

Spoiler:

Sorry, I had to. :p

[Alchemist21]

If anyone has any questions for a read except for those on "No idea yet" feel free to fire away.

Could you explain the Vedeith read? When fire refused to do so I chalked it up as some kind of pressure vote, but since you're seeing something there too I'd like to know what I'm missing.

[Alchemist21]

2 pagetops in a row? Fuck yeah.

[Alchemist21]

@Vedith, why wouldn't your opinion on an entrance be a reason? I know Luna said it's not a scumread section, but let's speak hypothetically here. Opinions of other players are the main way to analyze a player for reads. If we aren't supposed to read you based on your opinions, then how are we supposed to read you?

[Alchemist21]

Actually, look back through Expedience's ISO. It's not just Luna he attacked, but killthestory too. Then somehow, instead of pushing those two, he has both at the top of his Townreads, and uses the same reasoning he attacked Luna for to Townread her. I know this was after he got some pushback from others for attacking playstyle, but to me that kind of reversal looks more like scum trying to stay out of the hot seat.

[Alchemist21]

@Alch - It's one comment right? You actually said it yourself - "Opinions".
If someone has an issue with one comment, they should question it, if they have an issue with multiple comments then it's a case.

Forget the grammar, this early on you're probably not going to have an issue with multiple points because there hasn't been that much time in the game. Besides, you don't always need a case to scumread someone; you just need to find solid evidence that they're playing with a scum mindset. Good scum may only make a single mistake; letting them go because it was only a single mistake can be fatal.

[Alchemist21]

Actually, look back through Expedience's ISO. It's not just Luna he attacked, but killthestory too. Then somehow, instead of pushing those two, he has both at the top of his Townreads, and uses the same reasoning he attacked Luna for to Townread her. I know this was after he got some pushback from others for attacking playstyle, but to me that kind of reversal looks more like scum trying to stay out of the hot seat.

It actually makes it even more odd when you think that ika attacked him for those 2 comments.

Odd for Exp or for Ika? Not sure if you're agreeing or disagreeing with me here.

[Alchemist21]

I am fucking pr0 at pagetopping this game.

[Alchemist21]

So why did you call Luna scum for having too many Townreads and not comment on Heartless' comment of everyone who had posted seems Town?

[Alchemist21]

I think Alchemist is scum.

Do you have a reason for this or is it gut?

[Alchemist21]

Actually, look back through Expedience's ISO. It's not just Luna he attacked, but killthestory too. Then somehow, instead of pushing those two, he has both at the top of his Townreads, and uses the same reasoning he attacked Luna for to Townread her. I know this was after he got some pushback from others for attacking playstyle, but to me that kind of reversal looks more like scum trying to stay out of the hot seat.

Firstly, they weren't at the top of my reads, which were not in order. This is shown by how I read Killthestory as "slight town", but Firebringer as "town".

I can criticize one aspect of a player's behavior while still reading them as town. You're implying that I am somehow inconsistent for not continuing to push people who I have already accused, which I don't understand. Luna gave adequate responses to allay my doubts about the "townhunting" thing, while Killthestory hadn't responded to my accusation (which was really the main problem I had with her) at that time.

I can see the change with Luna, but you went from calling out kill for not actually scumhunting to Townreading her without her ever posting inbetween. So what caused that change of heart?

[Alchemist21]

They don't have good reasoning behind their vote, because being scum themselves they cannot legitimately scumhunt.

OK, NOW THAT I SAID ALL THAT, THERE IS A FUNDAMENTAL TRUTH TO THIS.
but i submit to you that it's a little more nuanced than "so-and-so didn't tack on an immediately obvious reason therefore there isn't one"

along that vein:

Town
Ika-Nothing has jumped at me to say anything otherwise. Ika posts are Ika posts.
Expediance-I don't think he is 'newbie' like everyone says. I also notice a tendancy for players to dismiss someone as newbie and it being blatantly false, so I am going with town for him just to be the black sheep.
Luna Fox-I don't know Luna fox well, nothing has jumped out at me, entrance was odd but playing a setup for first time and asking innocent questions seems fine to me. I did so in a completely different game as town and was scum read by everyone, so I understand.
Null
Killthestory-Puts too much thought into posts, could mean trying to find scum reads as scum, could be try hard town. Don't know, I know the playstyle of hers is familiar but reading players like this is hard.
Heartless-Townreads everyone which I have never seen heartless do, then scum reads me which I try to look at as a town tell but I think it felt forced to me. Null for now.
Alchemist-He just got in, not enough content. He seems like normal Alchemist that I like, but not ready to call him town yet. Liked his entrance though.
Scum
Gob-So little content, how can anyone town read gob? Putting gob at scum for now.
Vedith-HE MUST BE SCUM BECAUSE I SAID SO!

are these legitimate reasons? no, i don't think they are, and i think that gob scumread is an especially egregious example of the political maneuvering in this reads list. the other is the exp read. it's self-described as "dark horse" and i believe that. the residents of the dregs of the list, gob and vedith, are low-charisma sitting ducks that are easy pushes that are just dumped there under the banner of "low content" (the big boogey man of the game.)

(the paranoid side of me also says there's a reason luna made the town list while killthestory showed up in the nulls. from how the luna wagon rose [AND FELL] in the early game, it's pretty clear more of the current active posters are relating to luna a lot more than kill. as such, they're more likely to turn on her than luna. and firebringer knows that and gives himself room to shift later.)

Now that I look closer at fire's list, it looks to me like his null and Townreads should be switched based on the reasoning he gave. As for his Vedith read, when he refused to explain that I assumed it really was some weird pressure vote. I'm not sure he's going for easy pushes based on low content though given there are some players with even fewer posts.

[Alchemist21]

Fox, Drayne, and Ronit were the ones I had in mind. For some reason I thought they had all posted at least once, and also I kinda confused content and activity in my head there. My mistake.

[Alchemist21]

You really should be aiming for quality over quantity you know. We don't need a spamfest. Also, I'd like you to respond to Heartless' points regarding your reads.

[Alchemist21]

I liked Heartless' points about Fire's reads after I realized my mistake, but still didn't think it necessarily meant Fire was scum, but now Fire is indirectly avoiding Heartless' posts made towards them. And asking for pre-flip associatives on Page 12 is just terribad.

VOTE: Firebringer

[Alchemist21]

I actually think that goodmorning and grayfoxx could be scum.
So you might have a point.

LURKERS = SCUM. LIKE 99% OF TIME! Well on homesite anyways

And then shit like this makes me think you're just trolling the game for whatever reason.

[Alchemist21]

still awaiting a compelling reason for the gob scum read from firebringer.

I honestly don't got anything on gob. Its a gut read.

oh, bullshit

now you're retreating into the haven of "tolerance for gut readers" climate that's been created by us/alchemist/ika/et al.

you acted like having "low content" was some scummy offense and now it's melting into some nebulous "gut read" when it was never advertised as such. i don't buy it.

I don't really care what you buy.

I don't retreat into anything. I AM ALWAYS ON THE OFFENSIVE

RAWR!!!

This exchange is definitely someone who's not giving straightforward answers. That's indirectly avoiding the posts.

(Also, little fun fact: last time someone asked me what I was smoking it was scum trying to discredit me.)

[Alchemist21]

You tried to pass off your Gob read as gut when you had it as due to low content in your reads list, and when called on it you just go "Nuh uh!" This is the last post I'll make on the matter in response to you; it's a waste of time to try explaining to scumreads why they're scum because they'll just deny it like a stubborn mule.

[Alchemist21]

I think KTS' attitude is probably more likely Town than scum. She comes from the Town of Salem forums, and there are some good players there that have that type of personality, so it wouldn't surprise me if she's trying to model her playstyle after theirs. I've talked to her in PM before and she seemed really nice to me, so that's adding to my belief it's just an in-game persona, and it really wouldn't be the first time I've seen someone be more confrontational as Town than they are outside the game (referencing UnpodTripod here).

[Alchemist21]

@goodmorning, Why are/were you scumreading CityElectric?

[Alchemist21]

i'm not really concerned w/ that

characterizing firebringer as "low hanging fruit" is pretty baseless and ridiculous though

maybe you should be

usually, but he is being a bit nonsensical this game

@goodmorning, Why are/were you scumreading CityElectric?

I had an initial bias against that slot because the previous player picked up his PM but didn't play, which is more likely to mean Scum.
Besides that, her reads post looked a little easy.

I am here and bored.

Anyone got questions for me?

Want my godlike insight?

I want for you to actually play the game.

Throw up a readslist or something.

@Gray: And why can't they be bussing? Also, did you explain your Alch read yet?

This is the first time I've heard someone say picking up the role PM then replacing is more likely to be scum. I've always viewed it as null like any other replace out unless I knew the player, and there's only 1 player I can think of whose replace-outs would actually be alignment indicative to me.

[Alchemist21]

That's the spirit, City and Exo!

My bet is that at least 1 scum jumped on the wagon when it was basically set in stone.

CityElectric, Warped, ika Last 3 to vote on him. I would go with at least 1 scum here.

Warped wasn't finding me scummy for questioning the wagon. It's standard that as scum I would play like that, as I didn't really take a stance on him being scum or town. 582 Asking what my motivation is... The simple answer in theory is that I want to draw focus away from a scum member. Unless Warped is an alt that has played with me before, why would he not give the option of it being a save? If he is scum, 601 I can't see him throwing the other scum member under the bus, so I would expect GM or City to both be cleared.
Continuing with 601 He says if he is wrong with FB, then Gob, Ika, KTS and Gray would basically be back up for review (easy distraction away from focusing them later?)
His comment on Gob would suggest to me more of a null rather than a town lean, I'm not sure how not scum hunting and dodging questions is a town lean?
If Warped flipped scum I would like Gob as the last scum.

It's all ifs and buts, however, I'm not liking Warped on D1.

VOTE: Warped

So can you tell us what Town motivation you may have had for staying away from the wagon without presenting an alternative?

I really don't like how your last post yesterday was saying you'd join the Fire wagon if it seemed strong enough, then today you immediately say scum probably joined the wagon once it was set in stone. That looks like you trying to stay out of range of your own wagon analysis.

VOTE: Vedith

[Alchemist21]

illl iso later

but that nk actualy is more telling then many will come to realzie

What do you think the NK means then?

[Alchemist21]

I should be here unless sleep overtakes me.

[Alchemist21]

What I think GM is trying to say here is that we should lynch Warped.
I couldn't agree any more.

What's your issue with Warped again?

it tells me that one of the players on the scum team is probaly a person who knows me as well

What does that have to do with anything?

In all likelihood, Anti was killed because he was strong, loud, pretty well-townread, and possibly correct about more than just Fire. Nobody would have been a more obvious kill than Anti.

Ika, I agree with GM here. Anti was most likely killed for being a strong Voice. There's also the possibility the scum had a mason read on him/TTH.

[Alchemist21]

Given that Vedith hasn't claimed, I'm going to say he's not going to claim mason.

[Alchemist21]

Yeah. In short, I have Vedith and Expedience as scum (though I'm not sure they're scum together and expedience's recent posts are looking more Town to me). I still have you as null mainly becuase it's kinda hard for me to follow your posts. Everyone else I have as Town.

[Alchemist21]

Yeah. In short, I have Vedith and Expedience as scum (though I'm not sure they're scum together and expedience's recent posts are looking more Town to me). I still have you as null mainly becuase it's kinda hard for me to follow your posts. Everyone else I have as Town.

If you have any specific questions about where I'm coming from at any given time, please feel free to ask.

Ok. Since we're on the subject, is your City read still based on Ronit's replace-out or has there been something else that makes you think City's scum?

[Alchemist21]

I didn't like how Vedith said he'd join the fire wagon if it got strong enough, then started the day saying he thinks scum were likely towards the end of the wagon. That coupled with his defense of Fire makes me think he's scum.

City is a tone read. It's not a strong read, but the tone comes off as Town to me.

The basis for my expedience scumread comes from what he said about KTS yesterday, and how it looked like an attempt to undermine her playstyle. Since then, his posts have come across more Town, and I especially think his willingness to admit his mistakes looks Town. His opening vote on Vedith today makes me less sure they could be scum together, so if Vedith flips scum Exp will be Town imo. If for some reason the Vedith wagon falls apart, I'd vote here.

Gray is a stronger Townread than City, but still a lower strength read. He seems willing to put forth his opinions, but his posts feel like they're lacking something, though I'm not sure what. Despite that, his tone comes across as Town. I did notice the meta stats you brought up, but with only 2 scum games that he replaced out of, I don't think it's as telling as it would be otherwise.

[Alchemist21]

City is a tone read. It's not a strong read, but the tone comes off as Town to me.

Can you explain this in way more detail?

There's not much more to say. I liked her entrance into the thread and her reads were similar to mine which I generally consider a good sign, but it's still mainly the overall tone I consider Town for her.

[Alchemist21]

Expedience, I'm looking at that City case you just posted. You say City looks scummy for backtracking and not wanting to commit to stances or make a lot of scumreads, but then you say later on that Vedith doesn't look scummy for not pushing a counterwagon that he asked for. I don't get how you can scumread City for that sort of thing and not Vedith when Vedith specifically avoided the fire wagon.

Looking at what you quoted, it's not hard to see why she would have pushed KTS over fire if she thought KTS was scummier, and I think her pushing her stronger scumread does look Townier than Vedith's "I'll wait and see" attitude towards the Fire wagon.

[Alchemist21]

Going back into City's ISO, I can see where GM is coming from though with regards to her fire vote, but I still don't think she's scum for that.

[Alchemist21]

The speed of that wagon yesterday is appalling. I think at least one scum, probably both, were on it.

V O T E C O U N T

3 . 0 1

[/b]

(5)

CityElectric -

Warped, Expedience, shaddowez, gob, Killthestory

(L-0)

(4)

Not Voting —

ika, Alchemist21, CityElectric, GrayFoxxxx

[/font]

A lynch has been achieved.

I want to look closer at all the voters, but going off what I had I think Warped is most likely Town and Expedience is most likely scum. I want to revisit the other 3 slots to see if I missed anything there.

[Alchemist21]

Neither Gob nor KTS said much about City before voting her and on first look both votes look pretty bad. However...

VOTE: Vedith

Vedith is scum no question.

City is definitly the scum here. Followed by Gray probably.

VOTE: CityElectric

I find it hard to believe any scum votes like this on 2 Town lynches in a row. The entire manner in which Gob's played this game is also contributing to my read, but I'm not sure I can or should go into detail about that part right now.

Additionally, if KTS is scum, her posts regarding Gob make me think they're unlikely to be partners.

Ultimately, I think Gob is Town and KTS is scum.

[Alchemist21]

If I had a vote, it would be on KTS right now, but I'm going to wait a while irl before voting because I don't want another ridiculously short Day to happen.

[Alchemist21]

The speed of that wagon yesterday is appalling. I think at least one scum, probably both, were on it.

Was it? You were online the evening of Oct 1st. BBT only locked the thread towards midnight. You never said anything then but now it is "appaling?"

For the time I was online that day I decided I wanted to go back through some ISO's. I was actually going through your ISO and when I was finished she was hammered. I was appalled by it then as well but didn't say anything then because it would have been just an emotional rant that would have left me feeling shittier than I was already feeling irl.

[Alchemist21]

The speed of that wagon yesterday is appalling. I think at least one scum, probably both, were on it.

V O T E C O U N T

3 . 0 1

[/b]

(5)

CityElectric -

Warped, Expedience, shaddowez, gob, Killthestory

(L-0)

(4)

Not Voting —

ika, Alchemist21, CityElectric, GrayFoxxxx

[/font]

A lynch has been achieved.

I want to look closer at all the voters, but going off what I had I think Warped is most likely Town and Expedience is most likely scum. I want to revisit the other 3 slots to see if I missed anything there.

I just realized there are only 2 people still alive who didn't vote City. That guarantees there was scum on this wagon. Now it's just a matter of figuring out who it is, and also whether Fox is scum or if the second scum is on the wagon.

Still need to reread Shadow, but I'm most confident in KTS as scum right now, so I think this'll be easier if I peg down Fox's alignment before carrying on with the voters.

[Alchemist21]

The speed of that wagon yesterday is appalling. I think at least one scum, probably both, were on it.

Was it? You were online the evening of Oct 1st. BBT only locked the thread towards midnight. You never said anything then but now it is "appaling?"

For the time I was online that day I decided I wanted to go back through some ISO's. I was actually going through your ISO and when I was finished she was hammered. I was appalled by it then as well but didn't say anything then because it would have been just an emotional rant that would have left me feeling shittier than I was already feeling irl.

Of course there was scum on the wagon... this looks like a weak attempt at faking a read.

Also looks a bit OMGUSy

Nice AtE at the end there.

What exactly pings you as scummy about warped?

I never said he was scummy or that I ever thought that. I was rereading him because I had him as null at the time, and when I was done I concluded that he was Town.

[Alchemist21]

I think the mafia have been trying to kill masons, because these are the kills that makes the most sense (removing confirmed town members, rather than vanilla townies). The GM kill was most likely because ika asked GM if she wanted to be a mason with him. Because of this, I think that ika was killed because scum thought he was a mason. There wasn't much other reasoning behind killing ika, he was being a bit scummy in my opinion.

Looking at this post, it appears that Grayfoxxxx thinks that ika is a mason. It's fairly clear to me that he wasn't a mason, or at least that his mason claim was irrelevant to his role. Therefore, I think that Grayfoxxxx killed ika because he incorrectly believed that he was a mason.

This, coupled with my preexisting scumread of Grayfoxxxx for inactivity (which GM showed does very likely relate to alignment) makes me think that Grayfoxxxx is scum.

As for the other scum, I'd say either Alchemist or Killthestory.

Actually I'm confused as to why ika was killed. He was lurking, and I was the only one thinking he was mason.

Atleast I thought.

Why would ika be killed, without a partner?

Was anyone besides me hardtown reading him?

Also, GM did the exact opposite of what you are thinking. GM said it was pretty much non indicative.

Exp you are my strongest town read right now, so I don't mind you questioning me, but please consider this-if I as scum really thought ika was mason, would I point it out to the whole town, and then kill him?

Also why is KTS scummy to you? She is one of my confident town reads.

I'm having a diffcult time pegging your alignment down right now because there are things that go both ways, but this is one of the things I think you have that are Town, and I'm willing to discuss it because scum can't adjust their play to match.

You expanded on your Ika-mason read, but that night GM died, not Ika. I'm thinking if you were scum thinking Ika was mason then Ika would have died first. There's also a chance scum silently agreed with you and killed Ika later.

[Alchemist21]

When you say appalled, it doesn't exactly strike me as yu townreading him.

So why is he town then?

The

speed of the wagon

was appalling. I don't know how that's unclear to you. I'm not going to explain my Townread on him (at least not right now) because I don't want scum adjusting their play to match.

[Alchemist21]

Wait, scratch part of that bit about Warped. I had it written he was also mason-reading Ika and Ika wasn't killed. Let me see if I can find that post.

[Alchemist21]

Because the only reason I have ika as town is because his Mason claim seems believable and he's even asking people if they want to be added to the Mason thread. Otherwise, he's been active at first and then sort of faded out and hasn't really posted anything of substance.

I'll say that my strongest townreads are Antihero, Alchemist, Shaddowez, Expedience, and Vedith. I lean town on Gob, ika, KTS, and Gray. So, that leaves me with a pool or GM, City, and Fire. But that doesn't seem right especially since GM seems to be suspicious of both Fire and City.

So, if I'm wrong, I'm wrong within Gob, ika, KTS, and Gray. KTS is the one I wonder if I townread too easily. If she were scum, she has to have some type of abrasiveness to go along with how she acts as town especially if she's played offsite.

Re-reading Gob's ISO, there isn't a lot of scumhunting there. He dodges the question about why he found Luna scummy but not Heartless when both those players townread the entire active playerbase and he votes Firebringer essentially as a policy-lynch. The Alchemist scumread doesn't make sense when he also claims Alchemist is wrong, not scum. It is also basically an OMGUS of Alchemist after Alchemist asks him a valid question. The one town thing besides his abrasiveness is that how he reads KTS as town but insists that it makes sense for other people to scumread KTS. Saying Antihero has a level-headed view also contradicts his earlier annoyance with Heartless where he just says "shut up." But the towntells I pointed out in my previous post still stand so I'm null here.

On GrayFox, I disagree with his Alchemist read but his being paranoid of the leading wagons because his scumreads on them is still town and his re-reading Firebringer and ISOing him looks town as well and shows that he's dynamically developing his reads.

@GrayFox

, please elaborate on exactly what you find scummy about Alchemist and Vedith.

Yeah, here it is, first paragraph.

[Alchemist21]

Actually, rereading that, I misrepresented you there. You did say that you finished going through his ISO after Killthestory hammered and before the day ended, so I'm sorry about mistaking that.

However, my point stands. I don't really feel that your claim to have been avoiding posting after the hammer because it would be "an emotional rant" is valid. You don't seem like a particularly emotional person from the rest of your posts, and I don't think that a town member would have such qualms about sharing their opinions. I think that this is an excuse for avoiding posting after the hammer, for fear of looking bad and to get better things with which to accuse people with today. I also think that you were afraid of giving a stance too similar to Grayfoxxxx, who said this:

That was fast...

I would also like to mention that I don't like Gray's reaction to the City lynch either, it seemed like he was trying to do a similar thing with 841 to what Alchemist is doing now.

I'm a lot more emotional than I ever let on and do my best to keep it out of games. If I had fallen into an emotional rant I wouldn't have actually gotten anything done out of it. Waiting until today allowed me to focus on actual scumhunting rather than just raging at people.

[Alchemist21]

Luna and Shadow look Town to me. Individually, Gray looks Town, but his scum % skyrockets if KTS flips scum.

If the scumteam's not KTS/GrayFoxxx then it's probably Expedience and someone I'm reading wrong.

VOTE: Killthestory

[Alchemist21]

Luna

She had the slot before Shadow.

[Alchemist21]

Neither Gob nor KTS said much about City before voting her and on first look both votes look pretty bad. However...

VOTE: Vedith

Vedith is scum no question.

City is definitly the scum here. Followed by Gray probably.

VOTE: CityElectric

I find it hard to believe any scum votes like this on 2 Town lynches in a row. The entire manner in which Gob's played this game is also contributing to my read, but I'm not sure I can or should go into detail about that part right now.

Additionally, if KTS is scum, her posts regarding Gob make me think they're unlikely to be partners.

Ultimately, I think Gob is Town and KTS is scum.

@Gob, this is the main basis of my scumread on her. Added to that is how her early play developed where she started out really confrontational but then eased up on it. The attitude shif itself could come from both alignments, but since then she did fall off the radar.

Additionally, the main reason why I think Gray could be scum with her is how he handled the top 2 wagons on D1. If he was scum with Fire, it would make sense if he bussed or pushed a CW, but he didn't. It would really explain why he didn't though if KTS is scum and he didnn't want to bus either of them.

[Alchemist21]

Luna and Shadow look Town to me. Individually, Gray looks Town, but his scum % skyrockets if KTS flips scum.

I don't really like this reasoning. In the event of an Alchemist / Gray scumteam, if you got KTS lynched, then you would have an excuse to townread Gray. I also feel that your earlier explanation for your inactivity near to the lynch was weak and fake.

Both of the current wagons really do not appeal to me, let's start a better one. Gray's reasoning for finding shadowdez scummy is pretty bad, to be honest. I can also see motive for scum to each try and push a different counterwagon.

VOTE: Alchemist

The first reason of yours looks like fitting evidence to match the reads. You're assuming my post is a result of me neing scum with Gray. Show me why KTS and Gray can't be scum together.

If you think the explanation for my inactivity looks fake, you can see in my posting history that I was away from the site Friday and all weekend. Real life stuff was going down, whether you want to accept that fact or not.

[Alchemist21]

Luna and Shadow look Town to me. Individually, Gray looks Town, but his scum % skyrockets if KTS flips scum.

I don't really like this reasoning. In the event of an Alchemist / Gray scumteam, if you got KTS lynched, then you would have an excuse to townread Gray. I also feel that your earlier explanation for your inactivity near to the lynch was weak and fake.

Both of the current wagons really do not appeal to me, let's start a better one. Gray's reasoning for finding shadowdez scummy is pretty bad, to be honest. I can also see motive for scum to each try and push a different counterwagon.

VOTE: Alchemist

The first reason of yours looks like fitting evidence to match the reads. You're assuming my post is a result of me neing scum with Gray. Show me why KTS and Gray can't be scum together.

You're right, that was a very confirmation bias-y comment. If you genuinely believed KTS and Gray were scum together your statement would make an equal amount of sense. However, I haven't really noticed any links between the two anyway.

If you think the explanation for my inactivity looks fake, you can see in my posting history that I was away from the site Friday and all weekend. Real life stuff was going down, whether you want to accept that fact or not.

You still made 5 posts in other games while the thread was unlocked, so you can't have been that inactive.

I mentioned this in an earlier post, but Gray staying off both the Fire and KTS wagons makes a lot of sense if all three of them are the scumteam.

Trying to avoid an ongoing game reference here, but if you dig deeper and pay closer attention to my posting history, I think you'll understand why I couldn't be as active.

[Alchemist21]

V O T E C O U N T

4 . 0 2

[/b]

(3)

Alchemist21 -

Expedience, GrayFoxxxx, gob

(L-1)

(1)

Killthestory -

Alchemist21

(L-3)

(3)

Not Voting —

Warped, shaddowez, Killthestory

With 7 alive, it takes 4 votes to lynch

Mod Notes; Still searching for replacements for shaddowez and Killthestory.

[/font]

Deadline is in (expired on 2015-10-18 10:00:00)

KTS needs more votes.

[Alchemist21]

Hey Titus!

What do you think about the possibility of a KTS/Gray scumteam? Expedience could be scum but I don't know who is partner would be, and I'm pretty sure Gob is Town.

[Alchemist21]

@Alch, Don't try to solve the whole puzzle. Townbeards can fuck it up.

Why are you sure GB is town?

I'll run KTS/Grey in my VCA.


Gob's a gut read based on Heartless/Anti and VCA.

I don't really want to go into the reasoning unless someone twists my arm about it, but I'm pretty confident he's Town.

[Alchemist21]

@Alch, Don't try to solve the whole puzzle. Townbeards can fuck it up.

Why are you sure GB is town?

I'll run KTS/Grey in my VCA.


Gob's a gut read based on Heartless/Anti and VCA.

I don't really want to go into the reasoning unless someone twists my arm about it, but I'm pretty confident he's Town.

The only reason that I can think of why you wouldn't want to go into the reasoning would be if you were reading them as mason. And since that's the only real possibility, if you were town, it'd be really obvious to the scum that you're meaning this. So I'd just suggest you give your opinion, there are more upsides than downsides.

Fine, I think he's a mason. I think I saw a connection between him and Heartless/Anti D1, and I think his low-volume posting has been because he wanted to reveal his confTown status at lylo.

I mentioned this in an earlier post, but Gray staying off both the Fire and KTS wagons makes a lot of sense if all three of them are the scumteam.

I've looked, and I simply cannot find this. Could you clarify which earlier post you meant?

Neither Gob nor KTS said much about City before voting her and on first look both votes look pretty bad. However...

VOTE: Vedith

Vedith is scum no question.

City is definitly the scum here. Followed by Gray probably.

VOTE: CityElectric

I find it hard to believe any scum votes like this on 2 Town lynches in a row. The entire manner in which Gob's played this game is also contributing to my read, but I'm not sure I can or should go into detail about that part right now.

Additionally, if KTS is scum, her posts regarding Gob make me think they're unlikely to be partners.

Ultimately, I think Gob is Town and KTS is scum.

@Gob, this is the main basis of my scumread on her. Added to that is how her early play developed where she started out really confrontational but then eased up on it. The attitude shif itself could come from both alignments, but since then she did fall off the radar.

Additionally, the main reason why I think Gray could be scum with her is how he handled the top 2 wagons on D1. If he was scum with Fire, it would make sense if he bussed or pushed a CW, but he didn't. It would really explain why he didn't though if KTS is scum and he didnn't want to bus either of them.

[Alchemist21]

If he claims and nobody counterclaims he's confirmed.

[Alchemist21]

Just read Firebringer Iso..

Scum lean on the Titus slot..

Why?

[Alchemist21]

What about the way the slot looked like scum/scum interaction to you?

[Alchemist21]

Has thus readwall ever been disproven?

ooh,that format ..

Thoughts on gray soon..

You never answered my 938.

[Alchemist21]

@ Alc, from the time Luna left(which Fire asked "wth?",when it happened).he all of a sudden went to that slot being scummy,coupled with what seems to me as just an absolutely terrible read in #176 on Luna as well..

I don't see how that makes them scum together. Luna's fun to play with and it dissapointed me when she left as well. All of Fire's reads were terrible and I don't think they'll really tell us much.

[Alchemist21]

Scorpious is active on the wiki, so if he's getting any kind of advice it's likely from one of the guides there, though I'm not sure which one.

Going on what Expedience just brought up about KTS saying "Oh I'm just scumhunting," it's pretty ironic she said that given that she did very little of it in her time here, and Scorpious seems to be keeping to that trend.

[Alchemist21]

Probably Gray.

[Alchemist21]

That figures; sober Titus already saw all this. I'll pull up the quotes.

[Alchemist21]

Well, 1 quote. The others also referenced back to it.

Neither Gob nor KTS said much about City before voting her and on first look both votes look pretty bad. However...

VOTE: Vedith

Vedith is scum no question.

City is definitly the scum here. Followed by Gray probably.

VOTE: CityElectric

I find it hard to believe any scum votes like this on 2 Town lynches in a row. The entire manner in which Gob's played this game is also contributing to my read, but I'm not sure I can or should go into detail about that part right now.

Additionally, if KTS is scum, her posts regarding Gob make me think they're unlikely to be partners.

Ultimately, I think Gob is Town and KTS is scum.

@Gob, this is the main basis of my scumread on her. Added to that is how her early play developed where she started out really confrontational but then eased up on it. The attitude shif itself could come from both alignments, but since then she did fall off the radar.

Additionally, the main reason why I think Gray could be scum with her is how he handled the top 2 wagons on D1. If he was scum with Fire, it would make sense if he bussed or pushed a CW, but he didn't. It would really explain why he didn't though if KTS is scum and he didnn't want to bus either of them.

[Alchemist21]

Hey Titus!

What do you think about the possibility of a KTS/Gray scumteam? Expedience could be scum but I don't know who is partner would be, and I'm pretty sure Gob is Town.

@Alch, Don't try to solve the whole puzzle. Townbeards can fuck it up.

Why are you sure GB is town?

I'll run KTS/Grey in my VCA.


Gob's a gut read based on Heartless/Anti and VCA.

@Expedience, I am concerned with that readwall solely because it is Heartless endorsed. Heartless had correctly pegged my scumteam D1 by page 5 and I'm not that bad as scum.

Right now, that would leave the remaining scumas KTS + Greyfoxx

Kts is now scorpious.

Great. Scorpious+Grey is the exact team Alch wants... Coincidence?

Time to check if my D1 assumption (that scum did bus FB) is plausible.

Anyone who hammers before I am done claims scum.

You at least knew I had these 2 as the scumteam, I figured by the time you posted that last quote you had seen my reasoning too.

[Alchemist21]

Well, now you know, and that's half the battle!

[Alchemist21]

I agree Expedience could be scum, but I need to see if anyone makes sense as his partner. It's Lylo now, so at this point I'm not going to treat anyone as set-in-stone Town until I go back over things.

[Alchemist21]

I'm doing a full reread of the game. It might take me a day or two, but I'll give my opinions when I'm done.

[Alchemist21]

That didn't take as long as I thought it would. For somewhat different reasons, I agree with Warped's assessment of an Expedience/Gray scumteam. On D2, GM did accuse gray of softbussing fire, which Expedience did defend him against. But honestly, that's the only associative link I really see between them, and my conclusion is more a case of not being able to see Warped and Titus as scum at all. If Titus' VCA reaches the same conclusion then I'd say it's pretty much confirmed.

[Alchemist21]

@Exp, good luck on your exam.

@Gray, congrats on the baby.

[Alchemist21]

I think this needs to be pointed out:

Expedience has continuously been the only one pushing arguments than players are scum because of their mason reads. I can buy that Town expedience isn't one for Townhunting, but early in the game he supposedly learned that Townhunting is a legitimate playstyle, so common sense should tell him that Town can be looking for masons as well to develop strong Townreads. I think he's purposefully ignoring (or being scum has blinded him to) that common sense and that's why he's trying to pose these kinds of arguments.

[Alchemist21]

For the record, I'm pretty much ready to vote Expedience now, but I'm agreeing with Titus's request to wait until Gray's V/LA is over before voting as a courtesy to Gray.

[Alchemist21]

A) It's obviously not a scumtell when you've pointed it out about 3 different players that are still alive amd there are only 2 scum left.

B) I'm not oversimplifying any argument, but your cases have involved this severely flawed argument, and I see it as you trying to distort facts to fit your fancy.

C) I think my confidence is completely justified. Every post you make digs your hole deeper.

[Alchemist21]

Prod dodge

[Alchemist21]

*Drums fingers impatiently*

Gray said he'd be back by the 24th. It's the 25th and no word from him. Still think the most likely team is Exp/Gray. A very, very outside chance of Titus but I don't see it.

Titus, if you misvote after Alch and I have the game figured out and single-handedly lose the game, I will be pissed.

The dude just had a daughter born, and we still have a week left in the phase. I'm not saying we should wait forever, but I think we can give a little lenience here. A couple more days can't hurt.

[Alchemist21]

Everyone else is almost in prodding range. How much longer is "soon" going to be?

[Alchemist21]

VOTE: GrayFoxxx

Titus can decide if she wants to hammer or wait a while longer.

[Alchemist21]

VOTE: Warped

[Alchemist21]

My heart is racing right now.

[Alchemist21]

It's generally a bad idea to claim scum until the fat lady sings.

[Alchemist21]

Wow, you really have faith in Titus despite your earlier post.

You said it yourself, she was waiting for the crossvote.

[Alchemist21]

You don't think it was odd that I was at L-1, then she replaced in, parroted my reads, then pushed the CW?

Of course, it's also odd that I was softscumreading Expedience the whole time.

And also I never interacted with Gray.

Oh, but who is the answer?

[Alchemist21]

(I know I'm being kind of a prick right now but understand that this is my first scum win in over a year of being onsite and I'm just really excited and ecstatic right now.)

p-edit: Yeah. It was us. Lol. I'm ok with saying it since that's hard logic to argue againt, and also because we've won unless some BS technicality makes us lose. Friendly reminder for the Dead to stay Dead until BBT ends the game.

[Alchemist21]

Definitely. I was honestly hoping you would have gone for expedience first. It seemed like you were going to until he left for 5 days.

[Alchemist21]

The one thing I'm still not sure about is the City lynch. I get she had some associatives with Fire, but the strength of the reasoning seemed too flimsy to warrant the quicklynch it got. Maybe it's just harder to see from the scum side of things.

[Alchemist21]

I still did have my suspicions of Exp but the tipping point for me was my belief that Gray's entire pattern for this game was that he never seemed invested or cared about scumhunting. His play in other past games looked like he was passionate and invested. His activity level always was higher in other present games. I understood that he had a daughter born but that's the sort of thing that should cause a sitewide decrease in activity, not just here. He just seemed more clearly scum to me than Exp who just seemed to be playing a good scumgame. Ultimately, that's what tipped the scales.

Don't know why Exp was townreading him though.

it was site wide...

Im pretty sure I scum hunted enough to cause a few mislynches. Meh Idk i think i did good for my first scum game.

You did really well, especially when the activity meta was brought up the first time and you managed to talk everyone into disregarding it.

[Alchemist21]

Fing really... god damn it

I literally just got my beer.

Just curious, which pair were you leaning towards before?

[Alchemist21]

I kinda feel bad about bussing Fire because I like him, it was D1, and he wanted to talk strategy in the pregame which I totally would have done if I had known.

[Alchemist21]

@Titus, I know you weren't. Lol. I was just trying to mess with Warped's mind a bit. During the Night Phase, I did tell Gray he should push an Alch/Titus scumteam.

[Alchemist21]

GG everyone.

[Alchemist21]

No thanks. I don't hydra with anyone.

[Alchemist21]

most if not all i said is in dead thread

Did you really think GM was a mason/future recruit or did you just take a wild guess?

[Alchemist21]

I mean, I was active and present, so other than Anti I'd have been the top choice to get recruited into the Masonry. And since Anti was already a Mason...

Yeah, that's true. In hindsight I think the only other likely candidates would have been Ika/Luna, and Luna replaced out D1 so that probably wouldn't have happened anyway.