Open 615 - Hope Plus One [Game Over: Town wins]

[Errantparabola]

VOTE: Dictator

TMWSTW, how come you like your vote and then you change it?

[Errantparabola]

VOTE: Dictator

TMWSTW, how come you like your vote and then you change it?

EP, how come you call someone out for something potentially alignment indicative then vote someone else?

Id be happy to wait for an answer first.
Nice playing with you fire, pignash, accountant, rc.

[Errantparabola]

By the way, im phoneposting until tuesday, because wifi is apparently nonexistent in my hotel.

[Errantparabola]

I dont see anything alignment indicative about it.

[Errantparabola]

Hot damn. Guess i missed that.
Creative, why are you choosing to opt out of rvs?

[Errantparabola]

I dont see anything alignment indicative about it.

You don't see anything alignment indicative about liking a vote and then changing it? Because that implies TheMan was lying, either with his words or his actions. You don't think lying is alignment indicative?

You seem awfully eager to let him off the hook here. I know a townie would have pushed that lead until he struck gold. Could it be because you are paired with him and are unwilling to push an early bus too far?

I wasn't lying, I think it was very clearly a joke in reference to Skybird self claiming OMGUS.

Thats pretty clearly not the point.
Dictator, i can see how you thought that was scummy, and I'll acquiesce.
However, I didnt think it was scummy then, and I dont think its scummy now. But i see your logic and its fine.

On the other hand I see absolutely nothing alignment indicative about what Kop did, pignash. Is that a serious vote?

[Errantparabola]

Actually you know what? I changed my mind. I think theres enough to talk sbout so that we are outside the stage of just making a naked vote and getting away with it.

VOTE: kop

Kop what so you thunk about what dictator is saying?

[Errantparabola]

Well to be honest, I think he's over exaggerating a point, based purely on a joke, from what I saw of it. Is it alignment indicative from TMWSTW? I'd say no. During RVS, you make votes based with a joke, it isn't overly zealous to jump to a conclusion straight away.

Its not based on the joke, its based on me not pushing it when i thiught it was real.

[Errantparabola]

Because i didnt think it was scummy. I feel like ive answered this

[Errantparabola]

AreSee, is your read on Bowie purely associative? Because I think that naked vote is purely scummy in a vacuum. VOTE: TheMan

we'd be a pretty shitty scumteam if both my scumpartners are willing to jump to my defense regarding a point which I've already admitted I could see the logic behind

[Errantparabola]

My point is that Dictator has locked onto scum so hard that apparently if you don't agree with him, you're scum, if you defend the person, you're scum, and if you question him about it, you're scum. He's a swirling vortex of association tells with no actual evidence, or basis.

Seems to be a play style thing and nonindicative of alignment.

I actually do admit that was a mistake, I confused him with Erran, do to similar profile pictures.

Did you really just call Errantparabola one of the stronger players in this game?

Their pushing on teeny-tiny inconsistencies got us out of the RVS stage. I think that's a pro-town thing to do

I refuse to believe this is alignment indicative. Scum can easily take us out of RVS.

"coop or burn" is a horribly inappropriate response to someone that you think is scum, regardless of the circumstances.

Sure, it was inappropriate. But it's basically an terrible way of saying "I'm trying to engage with my scumread so that maybe I don't have to scumread you anymore." And I don't see anything scummy about that.

VOTE: Skybird
I think I need to see more from you. You've spent the whole day asking questions that you never follow up on, that don't really have a strong base or reasoning behind them, and honestly, seem to me like you're pulling them out of a hat.

[Errantparabola]

please feel better soon! Illness is terrible.

[Errantparabola]

This inactivity is nuts.

Fire, why Kop?

Seems to be a play style thing and nonindicative of alignment.

But does his desire to call me out in that way when that should be obvious have any alignment indicativeness?

Huh. I'd like him to respond to the possibility of your scumminess being playstyle.
I think wanderer also raised that point.

By the way. Fire i have no idea how you are strong townreading either of your peeps.

Pignash can you explain your Kim read?

I dislike both Kop and Creative for lynches at this point.

[Errantparabola]

Looking forward to it Wanderer!

What's the policy on using ongoing games to determine reads?
I assume you can't talk about your reasons?
I suppose it doesn't matter too much, considering I'm not a big fan of meta.

Also, this game seems to be rather slow going. As a result I think that people aggressively scumhunting are more of a slight town lean because slow games can be easily taken advantage of by scum to grind out town into simply not caring about the game.

Huh. I'd like him to respond to the possibility of your scumminess being playstyle.
I think wanderer also raised that point.

So I assume that your answer to this is you no longer believe it?

I wonder about the transition from being against Dictator and everything they stand for and then townreading Dictator and agreeing with their reads. I think it comes at a pretty bad time.
Also, summing up 153:
"Why are you so sensitive to pressure"
"Pressure is good for town in RVS"
"You must not care about information on TMW, that or you're scumbuddies"

Dictator has not changed their playstyle at all, why are you suddenly townreading them?

In addition, to Dictator: What do you think about Creative being sensitive to people employing pressure (going against your attacks on TheMan simply because he believes they are wrong rather than letting it play out to get information on TheMan) rather than Creative going out of his way to defend a scumbuddy or simply being apathetic about getting info on theman?

[Errantparabola]

Actually you know what? I can go back to this VOTE: TheMan
considering my current vote is sick and I'd rather wait for a catchup post before pushing her.

[Errantparabola]

If you find them suspicious why do you care so much about us pressuring them based on their joke?

Why are you getting so defensive over someone you claim to scumread getting pressured on their scummy actions?

Just because I agree with some points does not mean I agree with all.

And no, I will not and should not let bad points slide no matter who says it to who.

It seems like significantly townier play to let the burden of defense of a point you think is bad to fall on the person you scumread. That way if their reaction is similar to yours, you might see their defense as towny. Thoughts?

[Errantparabola]

Honestly, I don't give a shit that you think I'm scummy. I'm town, I know I'm town, and you are proving yet again that your reads are shit.

Bravo.
Golf clap

TheMan I still need you to explain your townread on Dictator.

You know what makes me uncomfortable? How whenever Dictator pushes on people, they back off and start townreading them. It seems to me either one of two things: either scum using the townread as some kind of mitigation strategy to reduce the pressure on them, or town seeing aggressiveness as an action exclusive to town. Either way I don't fully understand how people are comfortable with Dictator, or their methods, as town. At all.

[Errantparabola]

My vote wasn't naked, that fact I quoted means it wasn't naked.

My point is that Dictator has locked onto scum so hard that apparently if you don't agree with him, you're scum, if you defend the person, you're scum, and if you question him about it, you're scum. He's a swirling vortex of association tells with no actual evidence, or basis.

Sadly I'm starting to wonder if he's just bad or something, because if he's scum he's getting a lot attention on himself and if he flips one of us town he can't hope to continue this lynch train he's setting up.

I don't have much thoughts on anyone else so far, except that I like Kim, Erran, and Creative.

This is town

...i don't see it

[Errantparabola]

Off to a show, game's basically over, I just solved it, gg.

You don't think that this is the kind of attitude that will lead to you confbiasing your way through this game?

Molla, what show are you doing?

Errant, are you being sarcastic in post 209? Not quite sure what you are trying to convey to me.

I suppose I wasn't being clear enough and for that I am sorry.
Sarcasm off, I think that your response was terrible.

[Errantparabola]

Kop, as much as I would like to scum read Dictator, I have them as town.

Why
Why is this happening
Why is everyone townreading Dictator for a playstyle that is null at best

EP, so you thought my response was terrible. How about trying to talk to me and ask me something rather than just observing?

I will ask again, please re post any questions you want answered by me. Otherwise I will be answering them as I find them.

Sure. Do you have anything to say about 165 other than I'm town, I know I'm town, and your reads are shit?

I know I do.

I find it ridiculous that here

There's absolutely no force behind this.

Like, "be quiet", really? Not "shut up"? Not some variant of "fuck off"? That's absolutely bizarre and I'd expect if she had as much of an issue with my play as she's claiming to that she'd react a lot more viscerally.

Dictator is pretty much blatantly expecting everyone to act like they do.
Seriously?

[Errantparabola]

Wanderer, asking questions is how I get into the game to form reads. Yes, I am forming reads based on the reactions to questions. You for example, don't appear to like to be asked questions. Now that I've engaged you, you decide I'm only pretending to be scum hunting.

VOTE: Wanderer

There are other people that have said the same things and I don't see you voting them.

[Errantparabola]

I forgot to ask when I originally responded, but can you point out where people town read Dictator to get rid of him? I remembered this question because I noticed it a lot in the last two pages, firstly I explained my town read and Dictator immediately unvoted, then Kop and Skybird had a exchange where they both didn't really say much but both agreed Dictator was town, and lastly Pignash called Kim scummy for pointlessly pointing out her thought read on Dictator when most people agree right before saying he also town reads Dictator.

sorry I missed this question completely.

i think it has more to do with how whenever dictator goes hard on someone, they start townreading them for it, and that pattern is confusing to me.
like, at first you tried confronting them, and then decided they were town.

but there is no actual reason I'm getting for why they're town. So logically, that townread has to be fabricated.

EP, I did respond to 165 in post 226. Dictator replied and continued to take my RVS vote seriously, applying scum logic to unvoting my RVS vote, blah, blah blah. That's post 227 if you want to read it.

I'm town reading them because I can't imagine scum coming in and being so blatantly annoying.

imagine harder.

I'm not feeling molla's push on EP, nor Kop's on Creative. pignash's push on me is wrong, but 255 seems null to me. Skybird's eventual defense is okay, although EP's missing it seems weird to me -- it's one thing to miss a one- or two-line reply, but her post was pretty darn long.

yo, what? am i missing something?

is... smudger still in this game?

VOTE: Fostering Rave Bird

I'm feeling less confident in my skybird scumread considering there's nothing disingenuous about her play.
I think I'm comfortable voting FRB because

1) Consistently townreading someone with little to no basis with such confidence. I feel like scum would be more comfortable tossing out townreads, and sticking to one seems like trying to gain an ally in town to me.
2) 133 and 141 seems off to me, I don't get why they could push on Kop with such confidence based on a read primarily null if their observation about Kop's playstyle is to be believed. Then backs off of that read when they are questioned with it, meaning no actual scumhunting getting done here in this slot.

[Errantparabola]

EP, it seems like you want me to scum read Dictator? Why?

Molla, isn't it do be do be doo?

No
I just don't want you to townread them

Can you elaborate on what you find genuine then? Because so far I've seen Skybird ask questions and haven't seen them do anything with them. I asked but they refused to answer and went on to vote me. Then someone else has a scumread on Skybird and Skybird goes on to vote there. How serious are you taking Skybird's scumreads?

Sure, I don't think that Skybird's play is the best right now. I don't see a lot of scumhunting and I agree with you on how she seems to vote her scumreads.
But I think that town could easily do that as well.
The fact that Skybird is consistently doing this makes it seem like this is more of a playstyle thing. Like, I would expect scum to change their play when confronted with something like this by multiple people (me, Dictator, you) but Skybird sticks to it and I think I remember her saying that this is how she establishes reads. So I'm expecting her play to become better as the days stretch on. I'm willing to give her that chance.

[Errantparabola]

Jeanne, friend, I believe I am voting FRB not TMWSTW

[Errantparabola]

So Dictator, what do you want to talk about? I really meant it when I said I don't know what to say to you because all you do is take everything I say and call it scummy. Even though I am town and I hold the view that town shouldn't be afraid of being lynched I would like to live to tomorrow. I get better as the game goes on.

This is a terrible post, but I can believe you for now. Much prefer FRB lynch today anyway. Anyone else who thinks the same wanna consolidate?

[Errantparabola]

Actually the post isn't that bad. Ignore what I said. Except for the lynching FRB part. Don't ignore that

[Errantparabola]

Did you forget the part where Skybird doesn't scumread you?

[Errantparabola]

That rave bird wagon went up uncomfortably fast. But I'd rather cop check me than Dictator because dictator seems like they're wrong about things.

[Errantparabola]

@Jeanne -- I'll be V/LA this coming Fri/Sat/Sun.

I'm a bit annoyed at the no lynch because we've literally found out nothing since yesterday.

Well, we found out that scum didn't have a strong reason to keep Dictator alive -- e.g., they didn't have a strong town read on someone who was actually scum. FRB was the only explicit town read of Dictator's, unless I missed something in Dictator's iso. I voted for FRB, so that's making me reassess them.

I can get behind this logic.
VOTE: Kop

[Errantparabola]

Looking at how the Kop wagon died, I think that 522 and 519 are decently towny, and I think 517 is also town for some reason.

I still don't think Sky is very towny but I'm willing to give her a chance because there's a pretty good chance that my push on her is playstyle-based

The reason I think Rave Bird, Kop, and Molla are a scum team is because they were the only people (besides Dictator or SKybird) to comment on the soft claims.

I doubt this

I'm gonna decide on a vote later. UNVOTE:

[Errantparabola]

I can think of no logical reason for BB to soft cop as a town person. I even asked him about it and he didn't respond much at all.

I find it to be suboptimal strategy for scum to soft cop as well. Really unlikely that bb would do such a thing as scum in my opinion

[Errantparabola]

Agree, if cop can lynch a guilty without claiming that's even better.

TheMan trying to say that Skybird had softed also pings me. You don't point out things like that when town.

This is super semantic but the way that you say that TheMan pointing that out "pings you" is odd to me.
Why aren't you more confident in a TheMan read when you say town doesn't point things like that out?

[Errantparabola]

I find it to be suboptimal strategy for scum to soft cop as well. Really unlikely that bb would do such a thing as scum in my opinion

Errant is pinging me as hyper competent and I think thats the scum tell from them.

Not trying to be insulting, but I have seen you play as derpish town, and this doesn't seem like it.


-Fire

Idk if this is talking about ongoing games, but those were different circumstances where I didn't have enough information to go off of.

[Errantparabola]

And I am consciously trying to improve my town game. If you don't want to believe that, fine by me

[Errantparabola]

Everyone needs to give Wanderer reads, I think he's attempting to not bus Kop.

I like a wanderer lynch better than I like a kop lynch.

It's possible he just wants to out me and Kop is town? Unlikely considering Kop trying to derail his lynch by calling Foster Bird scum.

Although I agree with your thoughts on Kop's actions being antitown, I don't think it's impossible to do what Kop did coming from a town perspective

Kop lynch is loads better than a no lynch, but I am def fine with a wanderer lynch right now. Molla, from what it looks like, you're not opposed to that either?

VOTE: wanderer

[Errantparabola]

And yes, I think Wanderer's 571 is scummy in a vacuum, not just by association with Kop.

The only firm stance I've seen wanderer take other than the kop/molla deal is skybird

[Errantparabola]

Is anyone vehemently opposed to a wanderer lynch?
dave, if you want flips are you fine with lynching a weak town?
If we have another nolynch today we basically lose the game.

[Errantparabola]

We need to lynch wanderer.
It's better than this purgatory that this game is sitting in right now.

[Errantparabola]

VOTE: koggs

Myko's thoughts resonate with mine pretty well
I still think (and thought) that the wanderer wagon is the best
skybird is not looking townier like she said she would

so myko probably town
Tomorrow I'll try to help solve this game. Tonight I'm really tired and just got a lot of work done.

[Errantparabola]

I'll catch up tomorrow
I was not informed that this game started
I probably should have checked earlier than this

[Errantparabola]

So koggz fa sky and i are town?
This game probably merits a reread. Ill get on that when i get home.
Then ill try and do some gamesolving but i am admittedly not very good at that.

[Errantparabola]

So we're looking at a lynchpool of
PhantomCobalt (sinsun), BBmolla (Smudger), davesaz (euclid), and pignash

and looking at interaction tells with
klingon (frb) and mykonian (creative)

a shitton of people replaced out jesus christ
props to jeanne for dealing with that

D1
143 noting that both of fire's strong townreads are town. This points to fire's playstyle being afraid to directly townread a scumbuddy.
pignash's early game is weak.
338 points to davesaz leaning town. Taking 143 logic saying that fire is afraid to engage in association with scumbuddies, it's unlikely that fire would bring both of his partners into association read

D2
BBmolla townreads frb but that's likely null as so did RC
537 after thinking about it, i'm going to retract this.
end of d2 the bb counterwagon is composed entirely of conftown
i still don't like pignash's d2 game.

D3
mykonian's association play seems more bold than fire's, looking at interactions with FRB/KC.
787 myko push on dave is another puzzle piece that points to dave town.
801 although this could be davesaz catching on to the skybird soft and jumping on the KC wagon, knowing that it was inevitable, to earn some town points (as scum) I find it unlikely.

D4
PC's slot has done nothing and I hate it. not someone I want in mylo/lylo
BB is mostly null and I don't really understand how everyone is townreading
but definitely pignash and PC are better choices
At this point I find it unlikely that lone scum would present themselves as expendable. They'd probably try to ingratiate themselves with town block because that's pretty much the only way to win at this point. Actually, never mind. it's also possible that scum are just giving up and not doing anything.

VOTE: pignash

[Errantparabola]

If bbmolla is scum there's a good chance that scum might just pull a victory out of their ass for this game
but i think it's unlikely

[Errantparabola]

if we have three chances then we win since I'm pretty sure davesaz is town. Pignash and PC need to talk.
pignash's last post looks like scum giving up but I think that might be conf bias on my part.

[Errantparabola]

I am fine with waiting for PC's thread reread.