Open 620: Duck Duck Goose Game Over, Mafia Victory

[Egg]

Hey guys. I was hoping to be caught up by now, but lost a chunk of my post and my motivation went with it. I'll do my best to be caught up soon.

[Egg]

Just checking in to say I didn't forget this. I plan on doing some reading tonight. Will post what I have then even if it isn't much

[Egg]

Just checking in to say I didn't forget this. I plan on doing some reading tonight. Will post what I have then even if it isn't much

I'm tired so I'm putting this off about 12 hours. Sorry, I suck. I know.

[Egg]

Ok, reading Day 1. Here are my notes/questions, sorted by Page:
Page 1:
Sharky gives off a slight nervous vibe. The not knowing anyone vote along with not saying anything else is what gives me that impression. However, one liners on Page 1 aren't uncommon and plenty of people have done it, so the very most I can say is if Sharky stays quiet, I'll revisit this. Looks like someone in the 3 headed hydra may have seen this as well.

Speaking of the 3 headed hydra, they'd get my first serious vote. Not for the "at the scummiest time" comment, but for another head's reaction to it: " Damnit Taly you're scumming up the slot." It looks like the hydra version of the Amished tell. The Amished tell, for anyone who doesn't know, is when someone replaces in and says something like "hey guys, the person I'm replacing was scummy and I'd probably lynch them if I didn't know they were town". This post looks like someone pretty much saying "Hey guys, Taly is scummy so listen to me instead". It's pretty much discrediting someone you share a Role PM with because you think you are townier so you want the attention on your posts, not theirs.

If I'm wrong about the hydra, Burning Earth's vote (before the post I'm talking about) is opportunistic as fuck. So, pretty solid Page 1. One of the hydra and Burn is probably scum and I have a slight suspicion on Sharky.

Page 2:
I like Burn making the point about hydras being able to say their other heads suck. Shows he is thinking along the same lines as me. I'm definitely leaning town on him and scum on the hydra. Especially after the hydra tries to twist his vote to make it look like policy.

If Johnny/Radiant/Taly is town, concvex can be scummier than Burn, actually. That vote looked lazy as fuck. Guys, make better votes. I'm starting to doubt my only real scum read now. The smilie only post is redeeming though. It feels relaxed.

Wow, so Johnny actually meant that he's not signing because he doesn't want to forget at a scummy time. I thought it was just an offhand light hearted comment, but when he revisits, it shows that he actually meant it. That's pretty blatantly scummy. Maybe I'm seriously misreading though, because I notice they didn't end up lynched somehow. I'll keep reading...

Newbie is way too self conscious. Comes in with town reads on people who haven't done much yet, no scum reads, and a pre-emptive defense for lurking on Page 2. Did I really find two scum in the first two pages?

Something's logic is bad because it assumes everyone's alignment is obvious all the time, but it shows gnuine intent. Also, I'm gonna steal your abbreviation for RF3 from now on.

Taly's comment about RC doing "RC things" gives off more hydra Amished vibes.

Omg Newbie's RF3 vote. These votes all suck. Maybe this is how RF3 survived Day 1? By the way, I'm doubting I found two scum. If Newbie is scum, this opportunism isn't on a buddy. It's one or the other just like with Burn.

Page 3:
Ok, I like Sharky now.

Newbie, do you remember who you were talking about in Post 51?

Concvex's "I agree my vote is weak" post without an unvote is pretty bad. I seriously can't decide what is worse between RF3's play and the wagon on RF3. Hopefully it will be more clear later on, but I go back and forth every time I see a RF3 post or a vote on RF3.

Taly, I'm looking at Post 53. When did Newbie OMGUS vote anyone? I actually like the rest of this post though. If you are town, I agree with your reads (Newbie and concvex scum, Something and Sharky town).

This Taly vs Newbie reaffirms my belief that exactly one of these two is scum. Leaning Newbie now, but not very confident in that.

I'm frustrated already trying to get a read on Burn. His concvex vote is another opportunistic one, but it's on a scummy player again. Basically, I think Burn is scummy but his being scum relies on RF3 and cocnvex being town. So pretty much, Newbie and concvex could be scum together, but if concvex is town, burn could be scum. However, RF3 is scum only if all three of those are town. Wtf did I sign up for here? So along with Something and Sharky being town, those are my reads right now. Shitty, I know, because so much relies on flips that we don't have yet.

There's Newbie again with the pre-emptive defense ("sorry if this is a stupid reason"). Newbie is probably my strongest scum read right now. And if I'm right, RF3 would be town and my next strongest scum. Reads would be exactly one of cocnvex/Burn. No clue who the third would be yet. Maybe Mathilda if Burn is the second, but I can't see Newbie coming in with town reads on her buddies and nothing else in that first content post, so Newbie/Concvex/Mathilda is probably out as a possible team too. I feel so scatter brained lol.

Page 4:
So Mathilda posts three paragraphs about Newbie looking experienced, but I can't figure out her read on Newbie. And nothing about anyone else. I don't like this.

"Scumming up the slot" being some sort of inside joke explains that. 180ing this early is weird, but I think I'm town reading RF3 now. My scum reads are more simple now. It's Newbie, Mathilda, and Burn or concvex in that order.

Post 80-Page 8:
This is where I had a bunch of stuff that got eaten on me and I can't get the motivation to do it over again. But to summarize, a wagon popped up on Concvex. Newbie and Burn placed shitty votes there and then started fighting each other. And now I'm pretty positive that Newbie or Burn is scum, leaning Burn after their arguement.

Page 9:
Mathilda, what changed in your reread that made you unvote Something Pip and townread them?

I've liked Something Pip so far, but Post 202 is kind of ugly. It seems rare, unlikely, and nearly impossible for a hydra to only disagree on one read. The exception is if they have one dominant head and the other is just agreeing because they feel the dominant head is a better player, but the reads being fake explains it too. Post 212 makes me wonder if this is an overcorrection for dissonance. Also, "policy lynch at some point"? Not Day 1? Then when?

Concvex is L-2 at this point. I could live with that based on his play, but looking at the wagon he's probably town.

RC's 211 almost looks like an excuse to make a lazy vote later. Can my town reads stop being scummy this page?

Page 10:
I hope droog doesn't play the same way he did his catchup. Considering he didn't get lynched, I doubt it.
Ok, yep, there's some real stuff. And a good point about Mathilda joining in on RF3 pressure without voting. I'd like the rest of those reads explained though because they are way off from mine.

I actually like Burn telling droog his reads suck after Burn was listed as a town read. Shows that he doesn't care if he upsets a guy that is townreading him. Doesn't outweigh earlier scummy stuff but it's enough that I can go back to Newbie being scummier than Burn. But what I don't like is the lack of effort in convincing droog, so meh.

Mathilda's droog vote reeks of OMGUS and opportunism. Her only mention of concvex that I remember was a soft defense from sharky. Now, concvex gets wagoned, droog replaces and votes Mathilda, and suddenly Mathilda votes droog. And all that the post is is a defense from droog, a "contrived" accusation (based on what?), and an assertion that this is a confident read? But with flimsy reasoning at best and none at worst.

Page 11:
I find it funny how Mathilda thinks people want her lynched because it's easier, but look at her vote and the posting around it. Doesn't get much easier than what she's doing.

I don't like droog's style, but he definitely looks more town than Mathilda in this arguement.

I feel like Newbie is trying to find scum intent in everything droog says...

Holy shit, Taly's thoughts on Burn's reaction to droog's reads is identical to mine.

Page 12:
I like Shadow before, but he's fooled me before so consider him a weak town read.

Taly's frustration with being told he posts too much feels really genuine and town.

Page 13:
Ok, yeah, Shadow can be town now. I like him trying to figure out if town reads on him are genuine.

I actually don't have a problem with any of the first three Lowell votes. I'm sure scum jumps on at some point though.

Page 14:
Shocker. Newbie decides Lowell could be scum.

Page 15:

Newbie, if Dom was scummy for more than lurking, why did you say you'd unvote if he was replaced?

<- Shadow asked this already and you said you'd give the replacement a chance. But why? If Dom did things to make you think he was scum, why would my play change those things?

Maybe it's because I saw Lowell's town flip already, but it feels like droog and Something Pip are trying to bully Newbie into voting Lowell. I understand Droog doing it because he was close to a lynch himself, but if Newbie is town I can see Something pip being scum.

Page 16:
Mathilda, I know this has nothing to do with the game, but if you want to ISO someone without finding one of their posts, go to the bottom of the page where it says "display posts by user" and select their name.

Mathilda "wouldn't be unhappy" with a Lowell lynch. Same comment Newbie made, basically. Can't wait to see what droog and Something pip have to say. (Didn't have to wait long lol. Their posts are consistent)

Hmm. How did I miss scorpius and RF3 voting Lowell? And Shadow's vote is fine. Lowell was town. Where the hell is the scum on this wagon? Could it really be Something Pip? Or was I too quick to call Karnage town? Scorpius could be scum, but it's hard to tell because he did jack shit.

Page 17:
Interesting. Lowell's points against Shadow are basically what I've seen of his scum meta, but I missed it last time until late in the game. I haven't played with town Shadow though. Hmm. And it looks like he ignored Lowell.

Newbie, when did Karnage become a scum read for you?

Karnage, why did you ask RC for his droog case? Was there a chance you'd be swayed? Did you think RF3 might be scum?

Something Pip, you said you could judge droog based on Lowell's flip. So now that we know Lowell was town, has your droog read changed?

Page 18:
I'm interested to see if RC followed up on impying that Something Pip is scum if Lowell is town.

Droog, is Karnage really THAT town or could you be confirmation biasing because he joined your Lowell wagon?

Page 19:
Mrtrow has a lot of town reads. Something pip, did you notice that when you said you agree with him "across the board"? I'm also torn on Mrtrow's reasoning for not hammering. If he's town, wanting reactions to his post is good. If he's scum, he might be worried about how a hammer would have looked there.

Page 20:
I don't get RC's town-boner for Mathilda.

I like Mrtrow's posting towards RF3, but I don't love it. Weak town read I guess.

Page 21:
Taly, since when is no one in your hydra townreading Lowell? Didn't one of you unvote him and say they never supported a lynch on him? And why is Burn town?

Mathilda insisting that droog and something pip are scum after the hammer after earlier saying a Lowell lynch was ok reminds me of Newbie 180ing on a non-commital Lowell scum read earlier. This would be an even bigger deal if Lowell had been scum, but I still don't like it. Feels like distancing from the wagon. And in Mathilda's case specifically, it feels like she knows Lowell was town.

RF3, what similarities do you see between the Lowell lynch and the two votes on Newbie to start the day? Are you suggesting that Newbie is an anti town lurker?

Page 22:
Mrtrow, what happened to your Newbie scum read? Why is Mathilda scummier than Newbie?

I agree with Shadow. Newbie's post where she votes droog is lacking words.

Page 23:
RC, that's a crap reason to vote Mrtrow.

I agree with Mrtrow. Voting someone for pushing a mislynch and deliberately being on a mislynch are the exact same thing. Mathilda saying she's doing the first but not the second is crap.

My current reads:
Scum:
Newbie
Mathilda

Scum if I'm wrong on my scum reads:
Burn
Something Pip

No strong read:
Karnage
Scorpius

Weak town:
Mrtrow
Shadow

Town:
RF3
Droog

Vote Newbie

If it comes down to Mathilda vs Something Pip, consider me on Mathilda.

Sorry that post was so long. I won't do that often.

[Egg]

You were scummy for like 3 pages. Then Taly started posting and things got explained. And Droog is probably my top town read, actually. You're not far behind though.

[Egg]

So is Newbie your second strongest scum read behind Mathilda?

[Egg]

Competing with RF3, but that case is mostly linked, so: yes

Ok

[Egg]

That makes sense, but the timing made that question feel pretty out of place. You seemed committed to the Lowell wagon that Droog started at that point, so it seems weird that you were willing to listen to a case against droog. The last post I can find where you expressed a read on droog, you said he was "probably town". Do you still feel that way?

[Egg]

It's not the deadline that makes the timing weird. It's the fact that you were townreading droog and voting Lowell with him. It makes your droog read seem a little less real. But I don't think there's anything left to ask to learn more about this.

[Egg]

Well, there are a few ways to look at it. You could be town who was really sure Lowell was scum. Or you could be scum who really wanted a Lowell lynch. But now that I think about it, why would scum want Lowell lynched so badly? There wasn't really a counter wagon unless you count the fact that droog's slot was at L-1 before he replaced in and droog is pretty fucking town right now. So you being scum there not only relies on my scum reads being wrong, but on my biggest town read being scum as well. I know I've had some off games lately, but holy shit that would be bad. I think the idea of you being scum mostly stemmed from "there has to be scum on this lynch", or at least for me. But that thought came before I saw Newbie jump on and in that situation it's more likely that scum jump on lazily than push hard the way you did. So even if I'm wrong about Newbie, someone like Karnage makes sense too. Your early game was also really town so, *Shrug*.

Revised reads:
Scum:
Newbie
Mathilda

Maybe scum:
Karnage

Scum if I'm wrong on my scum reads:
Burn

No strong read:
Scorpius

Weak town:
Something Pip
Mrtrow
Shadow

Town:
RF3
Droog

Also, since it's not reflected on the vote count let's try this again:

Vote Newbie

[Egg]

I feel so ignored

[Egg]

I meant the fact that Newbie posted in response to droog but didn't even acknowledge the fact that I voted her and said a bunch of stuff

[Egg]

RC:
1) Your reads suck
2) You really think Newbie and Mathilda are weak players?
3) You really think that as scum I'd just go after weak players?

See I just don't understand this. Even if Droog is town, he's the kind of player who acts extremely scummy all the time

Scummy how? I don't see it.

Egg. Please explain why you think Droog is not only town, but probably your top town read.

He came in and convinced everyone to lynch Lowell and just the way he did it made him seem really convinced. He seems to believe everything he says. Like the way he pushed that nobody on the wagon was scummy and it was such a town driven lynch and why haven't scum jumped on yet. It just has a different feel than scum trying to stay alive because they replaced in at L-1. He didn't seem desperate to stay alive. He wasn't overly defensive. He just went balls to the wall against Lowell. The scummiest thing about droog in my opinion is that he replaced concvex who made a bad vote or two and then flaked. Also, if droog is scum then all of my reads are probably wrong so there's that too. I mean, I'm reading through your posts and I think if you are town you are seeing a style that is completely different than yours, thinking it's suboptimal, and making the leap to he's scum without thinking about the intent behind his play. If you are scum, you probably see the same thing and are amazed that town is playing that way and thinking you'd think he's scum if you were town. So either way, you just don't agree with his style.

He [droog] lies about what people did in order to make them look scummy.

Chances are he wasn't paying attention. Scum rarely lie except when claiming and giving reads. Lying about game events is extremely rare.

How the hell are you expecting me to respond to your points one by one pip if you insert yellow text into a big wall of text?

^I second this. I can't read the yellow so that may as well be invisible text for me.

Aaaaaand after typing the above, I see droog's post about different styles. Whatever, I'll leave my thing because I was asked a question and that's still part of my answer.

[Egg]

I dunno. It seems clear cut to me. If the answer was satisfying, there's no point in acknowledging it. That doesn't mean she wasn't interested and she's said that plenty. The way you're pushing this, I actually thought you missed her saying that somehow. I mean, I looked back to understand your point a little more and I get what you are saying now, but I still don't agree with you on this specific point.

[Egg]

I dunno. It seems clear cut to me. If the answer was satisfying, there's no point in acknowledging it. That doesn't mean she wasn't interested and she's said that plenty. The way you're pushing this, I actually thought you missed her saying that somehow. I mean, I looked back to understand your point a little more and I get what you are saying now, but I still don't agree with you on this specific point.

its not the crux of my
read anymore anyways
shrug

Ah.

[Egg]

the stuff i really thought was bad
was math insisting there had to be scum on loweell
but took forever in naming them

when i finally pushed enough
she named me and spip
and did nothing to push those wagons

its like she gave just enough token resistance
to show that
"i wasnt on that bad wagon"
while also letting it go through

Yeah, this I can agree with. It kind of feels like she knew Lowell would flip town and didn't want to be associated with the lynch. And I agree that town who sees a bad lynch happening would be more likely to look into who is the scum pushing it and do something about it. (Although to be fair, she's now pushing you and something pip after you said something so there's that)

[Egg]

Mathilda, you voted me for ignoring you and then realized that not only did I not ignore you, but you acknowledge my response was good. So I can only assume you are scumreading me for scumreading you unless you provide more. As for my Newbie case, my ISO isn't that long and a good portion of it is about Newbie. It's like two clicks away.

I don't like Karnage's switch to Mathilda right after she accuses him of avoiding her wagon. If she's town, Karnage is likely scum here. And of course it's a naked vote...

So Egg, ready to put your neck on the line?

If a Newbie lynch isn't viable, maybe. But I'm more sure she's scum than I am on you. Hell, even Karnage is trying his best to be scummier than you.

but shes only pushing hard nowall yesterday i had to requestme, i, her top scumreadhad to request her casesagainst me, i, her top scumread

it screams convenientespecially because she gets to say"my reads were rightno introspection!"

I agree.

fwiwif math flips towni will take a second look at spip since he and i have driven both wagonsi will look heavily at rf3with at outside chance of karnageif math flips scumi will take a hard look at newbieand consider the lurker slots

You don't think Newbie is independtly scummy on her own regardless of Mathilda's flip?

Bullshit Droog.You and Pip have both bulldozed two incorrect lynch wagons. You know that there will have to be some serious fallout from this in Day 3 and you're already re-writing history.

See, this is what I meant before. If you are town and Droog and Something Pip are scum, then of course they know that. You think they'd do it anyway? Do you think they are bad players? I could agree with this if they were late votes on mislynches or something like that, but to be the driving force behind the Lowell lynch and then do it again today if you flip town? I just think it's more likely that they are town with bad reads in that case. Unless they are right today in which case they are probtown players who happened to get it wrong on Day 1. Either way though, if they are scum and you are town, they are playing like shit. It would surprise me. If that was the case. Also, droog acknowledging that you flipping town would look bad on those on both lynches is town as fuck. He doesn't care that he is implicating himself. He just wants to find scum.

Neither of you are doing anything to help the town by continuing to just post previous quotes of yours to each other.

I agree with this. It's like really? This is why I'm 2 pages behind?

Also, this:

the definition of scumslip must have changed

[Egg]

What about RF3 if Mathilda is scum? Becuase Mathilda kind of has a point that RF3 is defending her just like Newbie.

[Egg]

Nothing to say in response to me? This is what Newbie did when I replaced in...

[Egg]

1) I wasn't looking for a defense. I was looking for a discussion so we can understand each other if you are town.
2) How is droog's play bad if he is town? I only see poor play if he's scum.
3) There's no slip.
4) The attitude displayed in your last line is the kind of thing that will make people not want to play with you. Some of us are still invested in this game.

[Egg]

Droog,

What about RF3 if Mathilda is scum? Becuase Mathilda kind of has a point that RF3 is defending her just like Newbie.

[Egg]

Makes sense.

[Egg]

Since no town players stepped up to the plate

This assumption feels pretty random.

[Egg]

Whatever they flip, Newbie is probably the opposite since that interaction is very likely not SvS.

Why are their interactions not scum/scum?

Eh. I was willing to be partial and place my vote on the Lowell wagon because I could've been wrong, but then I saw how much resistance your wagon was getting.

That doesn't answer the question. You said you would unvote Dom if he was replaced, but he was scummy for more than lurking. I wanted to know what difference a replacement would make. If Dom was scummy, being replaced wouldn't magically make him town. It looks like an excuse to jump on the Lowell wagon and get a mislynch because a Dom lynch wasn't happening.

[Quote="Newbie"[/quote] Egg should've been lynched a day phase ago.VOTE: egg[/quote]

1) Why?
2) if this is the case, why didn't you vote me at day start?

No, see this isn't going to be happening because you're trying to lynch my townreads.I'm not okay with my townreads being lynched.I'm not positive if you're scum or not but continue to try to lynch my townreads and you will be lynched.

You're gonna have to be more specific on why Mathilda is town if you're going to keep saying things like this. Also, lynching people you don't think are scum is bad.

Droog's post 726 (and yes I realize it's been brought up multiple times before that) is probably the number one thing that makes Mathilda scummy. It's even stronger than anything in my catchup post against her.

who are you going to get to hammer me then? You don't have the votes 

Trow, Egg, I think you both should vote Mathilda or explain why not.

Ok

Unvote, Vote Mathilda

[Egg]

That's pretty ridiculous.

[Egg]

No, correct play isn't to ruin a game just like it's not to quit when you don't get your way. Either you are town who wants to just tell people what to do without using any logic or reasoning and getting frustrated when it doesn't work or you are scum pretending to replace out (or doing it tactically which is against rules) so people will cater to you. Either way it's bullshit. Hard to believe your play can be even worse than the last time I played with you. Thought having two heads who I repect on your side would help things. Guess not.

Note to self: no more games with RC.

Seriously I like to play with people who actually play the game.

[Egg]

It's bullshit whether he's town or scum. He's either town who is threatening to ruin the game or he's scum who is breaking rules. And either way he's pulling BS just to get his way.

Mod, RC pulled himself from the game already and has implied he's willing to break rules. Can you confirm that he is out of the game and can not return?

[Egg]

If you actually posted a town Role PM, yeah you'd be modkilled and confirmed. You'd also be fucking over Taly and Johnny, dropping town's numbers, and proving nothing about Mathilda or myself. Now stop posting. You already removed yourself from the game.

[Egg]

If you actually posted a town Role PM, yeah you'd be modkilled and confirmed. You'd also be fucking over Taly and Johnny, dropping town's numbers, and proving nothing about Mathilda or myself.

Now stop posting. You already removed yourself from the game.

[Egg]

None of that explained why it's a scum ploy. You're right that it's easy, but that doesn't make it the best play.

[Egg]

I skimmed since my last post. Came here to announce V/LA but if a hammer happens I guess it doesn't matter. I'll check back in 17 or 18 hours. This is also me saying I'm fine with a hammer.

[Egg]

Vote Newbie

My thoughts on her haven't changed. There's got to be scum on that Mathilda lynch but I'm not quite sure where. I want to say Karnage but I'm just not as confident he's scum as I am with Newbie.

[Egg]

Vote Newbie

My thoughts on her haven't changed. There's got to be scum on that Mathilda lynch but I'm not quite sure where. I want to say Karnage but I'm just not as confident he's scum as I am with Newbie.

I mean it could be you.

From your PoV, sure. But I obviously ruled that out based on my Role PM.

[Egg]

Or it's just ridiculously bad town play...

[Egg]

If she's voting RF3 which it sounds like, it's got to be Burn.

V/LA until Friday

[Egg]

Huh?

3 votes and resign with shitty reads list?

My Spidey sense is tingling...

^I agree with this. Newbie has gotten quiter as she's gotten more suspected and the reads lisr + "peace" rubs me the wrong way there.

No...I am not yet. Given my last game that just finished, I am a little reluctant to rush to judgment here.

I had two others that went well...and then that one.

Elaborate please.

Something Pip, if Concvex and Lowell both got to L-2 as town with no scum on the wagon, it would honestly be in the top 5 craziest things I've ever seen in a mafia game and I'm guessing I've played about 300 games. That's not VCA. That's trying to make VCA fit with your theory.

[Egg]

@egg, I just botched a 3p lylo game.

Ok, but is Newbie displaying similarities to someone who was mislynched there or is your confidence just shot or what? Because I don't see why that leads to not thinking Newbie deserves a vote.

Additionally, Newbie, one of your [pip] town reads, is reading myself and Trow as town - so either you're saying she's a terrible player, or something else is fishy.

This is a stretch. Just because you disagre with someone's reads doesn't mean you think they are a terrible player.

Second is that I honestly can't imagine the 4 people on Newbie all being town here, the speed in which that wagon took off without really any strong analysis backing it up really concerned me and just everyone coming to the same conclusion at the same time like that is odd to say the least

1) speed of a wagon is over rater
2) it's not that reasons on Newbie aren't there. They were just posted a long time ago. See my first post for example.
3) not everyone came to that conclusion at the same time and even if they did, why is that a problem?

 Also I think the no kill yesterday was very much indicative of a newer scum team

Yet you are scumreading Trow and myself...

@Newbie:I have a reason to think you are town

What reason is that?

My scum read on Egg is connected to my scum read on droog. Dom's (who egg replaced) opening was literally one of the scummiest things I've ever come across. Worse than all of Lowell's posts, but droog had him as a top town read and couldn't even explain why. Then when egg replaced in, droog followed his vote on me. Also, droog's push of math seemed dishonest and flimsy. I'm not as sure about the BE scum read as I once was, but it's still there. Like that Titus didn't immediately just jump on my wagon, though.

Why am I scummier than droog then?

The same could be said about Lowell. He pissed people off so much that it got him lynched. 

And yet he flipped town.

As for Pip/Smart's case, I find it interesting that they think you, shadow, and egg are scum but aren't willing to put their vote on egg. So no, I'm not sure they actually believe what they stated.

This might interest you:

 I honestly think of the 3 egg might be the towniest. I might move to Shaddowz after 831 though.

As for pip: If you don't believe, they believe their own case.Why aren't you voting them?Or posted any concerns on the matter?

^good posting.

[Egg]

And he was also less scummier than you.

I don't see what point you were trying to make if his town flip doesn't mean anything.

He made a big case connecting three people but isn't willing to vote one of the connections who already has a vote. That's why it's hard to tell if he's actually genuine about his case.

Unless you are suggesting he and I are scum together (and you might be so if so whatever all I can say is "you're wrong"), there is no issue here. People will naturally have different levels of confidence in their scum reads.

Preview edit: *shrug*. I thought it was an attempt to get a kill through without worrying about PGO because seriously who PGOs as soon as they replace in. The no kill N1 makes me think scum are pretty worried about that kind of thing.

[Egg]

*shrug*

I don't think in thread coaching is something that actually happens but that's just me

[Egg]

Shadow how did Newbie's scum game look? What made you meta if you don't do it normally?

[Egg]

Interested. She's been least active while pressured here and I'm assuming pressure came before her lynch in the other game so the lurking is probably triggered by pressure which I was kind of guessing anyway. I'm curious if the same thing happens in her town games or not.

[Egg]

Catch up first then we'll talk.

[Egg]

@egg re: the VCA several things I couldn't believe ended up being true this game.

Like what

[Egg]

Pretty sure that was hammer...

[Egg]

Ah. Missed that.

[Egg]

Did you know you were already voting Something Pip?

[Egg]

Newbie, how many votes did you think Something Pip had when you voted?

[Egg]

But you didn't count? Knowing he was close?

Would you have hammered if MrTrow was the L-1 vote and announced it?

[Egg]

Most likely.

Fluff questions, though.

No, not really. I'm trying to see what your mindset is with that vote. It feels like you didn't care either way whether it was hammer. Like you're just riding momentum to save your own ass.

[Egg]

Did i know my vote was already on the currently scummiest person in thread,when i restated my vote in a TL;DR?Yes i did.

So did you realize that people would take it as a new vote? Were you reaction testing? What do you think of Newbie's vote?

you seem to doubt his sincerity, in that case.Same question i posed to karnage:Why aren't you voting him?

I'm not really doubting the sincerity. I think he's stuck in confirmation bias which happens to town. He came up with this theory that you, shadow, and myself are the scum team and he got confident in it and now he wants to prove it to us. But his analysis isn't analysis at all. It's just saying "this is the way it is". Just because he's wrong and doesn't realize it doesn't make him scum. Newbie's vote was opportunistic as fuck and is far scummier than a bad analysis.

[Egg]

Yep still can't read that yellow

[Egg]

Thanks for the format change, pip. There are actually some pretty solid points against Mrtrow there. Just one question though. Why is Titus your strongest town read?

[Egg]

Hmm. Burn didn't seem all that town to me. The rest makes sense though. Just feels random that that slot would be your top town read...

[Egg]

His votes didn't seem opportunistic to you?

[Egg]

Trow, things Pip said that I agree with:
-You are acting like only scum make bad cases and just screaming that they are scum without any genuine attempt to help town.
-You're awfully defensive against a case you call weak.
-You accused them of OMGUS when it's clearly the other way around.
-You aren't looking for scum intent in Pip's actions.
-Your reaction to the case is just generally bad.

But i have no problem in kicking those who aren't reading the thread (which is a requirement, for thinking i wasn't on pip already) into action.

To be fair, forgetting votes can happen. I personally forgot you were already on Pip and I'd like to think it's obvious I'm reading.

I'm not surprised by newbies vote.After all pip called her scum and undermined his entire case in a single line.I'm not saying voting on that is the most logical thing to do, it is EXACTLY what one would expect from a reactionary player like newbie.

I just want to make sure I'm understanding you. Are you saying her reaction is a null tell and says more about her playstyle than anything. Because if so, that hardly helps as far as reactions. If Something Pip is lynched and flips town, do you see this vote the same way (assuming I'm not misunderstanding) or will you then see it as opportunistic scum?

[Egg]

@Egg do you do the "Scum if I'm wrong about my scumreads" thing often? That shit rubs me wrong. Something about being too methodical.

Meh. When people are scummy but obviously not scum with my top scum reads, I like to keep them in mind like that.

Egg explain why this is scummy and not just bad.

The defensiveness and desire to eliminate a direct threat seems to come from a mindset of having something to hide.

[Egg]

V/LA until Wednesday

As always, if the pace of the game is slow, I'll be fine to keep up.

[Egg]

Mrtrow, I wasn't really looking at Newbie's late votes on wagons as an attempt to get someone to accidently hammer. I feel like the idea is more to get townies lynched by bringing them closer to that point. Of course if you think Something Pip is scum, that wouldn't apply here. But we saw it with her votes on concvex and lowell as well and lowell flipped town already.

[Egg]

Prod dodge. I'll be back later tonight

[Egg]

Mrtrow, I think it's the timing. Wagons pick up steam and get close to lynch and she decides to push them to the tipping point. It's like she just wants to see people lynched rather than determine their alignment. Of course, if droog or something pip is scum, I'll be able to agree with you that it's probably "normal play" for her, but I've never played with her before and these voting habits don't seem to show town intent and are easily explained if she's just opportunistic scum.

Newbie, what do you mean I won't take a solid stance? You don't think I'm asking Mrtrow about you because I like typing do you? He fits as your buddy.

Given how you've just seen:egg getting a read on newbie based on a reaction to a re-vote.

If that's where you think I started scumreading Newbie, you don't get to accuse me of not reading.

[Egg]

So which is it?Aren't you reading?Are you mudslinging?Are you somehow invested in discrediting 'Karnage, your accusation: 're-votes are inherently anti-town', is false and you know it'(without actually addressing the point)?Or is this something for which a clear explanation will be in your next post?

Just another point against someone I already thought was scum. Also, fake votes are fine. I've done it before.

Care to back this up?Because, well, to be direct. This was NOT the case in either of the examples you've stated thusfar.

Actually, it is. She's been like a L-2 or L-1 vote what? 3 times now?

In the meanwhile, i'll try not to overthink the detail you just flat out stated, your attempt to pin me as newbie's buddy, is the only reason you're even interested in questioning this read

Nah dude. Something Pip raised a few points against you that were pretty solid and then I saw this Newbie connection and you flipped out. You were doing a pretty good job at staying active and under the radar at the same time, but then a couple of people say a couple of things that might make people suspicious of you and now you're on a crusade against those people (Something Pip and myself). Now maybe you just don't react well to pressure. Some people are like that. But at the very least, I'm storing it in the back of my mind.

Speaking of which: how do YOU see anything other than 'wifoming 'titus is buddy' ' in that 'response to hammer'?

What do you mean? It doesn't at all read like a buddy so if it was an attempt to fake that, it was done poorly. It looked like someone upset at being lynched. I dunno about you, but I don't like being lynched. It doesn't happen to me often, but when it does, it feels shitty regardless of alignment. So basically, that reaction is as null as it gets as far as Pip's alignment, but I really think is he was scum with Titus we'd have seen a better WIFOM attempt or a non-reaction. I mean just look at that follow up that screams "lol Titus you're not getting a reaction from me". If they were scum together, he'd be in the mindset where the rest of the game is the audience, not Titus.

We listed the potential scum out of PoE, and went into the associative hunting with an open mind.

Wait, so you went intentionally out of your way looking for associatives without any scum flips? Can I ask why?

he is attempting to discredit us and destroy us, whereas we did not care what Lowell and Mathilda were saying; we just wanted them dead. Trow's case on us is undeniably scummy.

Ew....

[Egg]

So what exactly IS your point here?Because you're not saying anything that's actually related to what you're responding to.

You asked about it. I answered. If you want more, be specific.

You've named concvex and Lowell right?One case of 'i'm considering to vote this lurker', 'why don't you? help me add some pressure' -> 'ok' (clearly pre tipping point)And one of 'the only reasonably possible outcomes here are a lowell-lynch or a no-lynch(due to deadline)' -> 'fair enough' (clearly post tipping point)

Droog replaced in at L-1. Had the replacement not happened, a hammer was probably coming. Had Newbie not voted, I'm not sure that's true. And if not for Newbie's Lowell vote, no lynch was definitely a possibility. Not that no lynch is much better but my point is her votes have shown nothing but opportunism and a desire to get to a lynch quickly. If you can't see that just by her position on those wagons as well as the Something Pip one today, then I've got no help for you. Believe me, I've played a shit ton of mafia and if I could just get the lynch I want here, I have confidence we'll finally lynch a scum. This game has been a complete shit show and only a handful of us actually care what happens. Newbie is blatantly scummy and her voting record shows it and everyone is either ignoring it or defending her. I just don't get it.

- can you back this up, cause they won't

Not without repeating what they've said and what I have. Just because you don't agree with it doesn't mean it's not there.

what pressure?

Something Pip is voting you and calling you scum while you and I debate.

But do you blame 1 specific person?

For what, exactly?

But who would he want everyone to think he was addressing? 'the rest of the game' ? don't think so.Also the pre-emptive empty counter of when not containing anything remotely aimed at convincing titus(see pre-emptive, also the lack of a second half of that sentence) and no reason to believe anyone was going to draw that conclusion. (Other than the 'obv-scum who will not be convinced by it anyway and will twist it into, well, me')Who was that post aimed at, if not at town-trow, who he claims to be sure of, doesn't exist?

Pretty sure it was aimed at Titus.

Then again i have seen scum get someone mislynched, by getting angry over being bussed before.

And then call out their buddy while the game is still going on? Maybe in Newbie games or when somebody who belongs in the Newbie queue takes on something they can't handle. I don't think I've ever seen that from a non-newbie and like I said, I've played a shit ton.

[Egg]

Shadow, are you saying you honestly believe Something Pip's use of the color yellow is scummy?

Mrtrow, my bad. I had no idea that had something to do with Karnage. I was responding to this when I said my read on Newbie didn't come from your vote:

egg getting a read on newbie based on a reaction to a re-vote.

And this when I said I don't have a problem with fake votes:

your accusation: 're-votes are inherently anti-town

So turns out you were interested in my Karnage read? Well I had him as town early, but then scum. Then he started tunneling my biggest scum read. So basically I have to wait for Newbie to flip to sort him. Because I'm pretty sure Newbie is scum which would make Karnage likely town despite his individual scumminess. Have fun with that one lol. For what it's worth, I'd lynch him over Something Pip.

There were multiple explicit 'pressure'-votes on that wagon, i'm not so sure

That's kind of my point though. What was initially a pressure wagon went to L-1 and you have to wonder about those late votes if Droog is town and I think he is.

Didn't she stay off that lynch until the 'the only alternative is a no-lynch' was explicitly pointed out (after it had been obvious for some time?)

I was going by the vote counts. Lemme check... Ok, yeah, I guess that one is fair.

Other reasons to think her scum

Dude check my ISO. There's plenty there.

And then there is the detail 'by the fact not a single opportunistic scum has hammered SP yet: either the entire scumteam is either already on that wagon (or droog) or SP is scum'

Could be a combination of the two. Maybe two scum on the wagon and one lurking? Who knows. There are plenty of reasons why scum might not have hammered. Hell, maybe they are under the radar and don't want to draw attention to themselves (Karnage or Johnny). Or maybe it really is droog. Or like you said, maybe they are all on the wagon already (which if they are then holy shit lol). I dunno, maybe I'm wrong about Something Pip but I really don't think that's it.

Then re-state it.

We've talked in circles on this enough. The discussion is getting stale. All I care to say on this is that if his case is so bad and obviously fake, the fact that you turn into a rabid fucking zebra or some shit over it doesn't feel natural.

Apparently this story wasn't clear:A scum realizing he was lynched threw a temper tantrum on the TOWNIE that got him lynched.He accused THE COP of being his buddy, of being so full of himself, to think he could win this game on his own, the fact that he was his buddy was the only reason he was so sure(i did mention the target was COP, right?), etcThe next day, town quicklynched THE COP, because obv-buddy. (it was face-to-face btw)

Face to face is a completely different game, but that sounds like absolutely terrible play and I stand by my comment that there is no excuse for anything similar outside of Newbie games. Pip doesn't strike me as someone who would out his team over being bussed. However, he hasn't even flipped scum yet so this discussion is kind of pointless. All I know is if he does flip scum, I won't be joining you in lynching Titus. I'll be doing whatever I can to get people to actually listen to me on actual scum that I'm pretty sure I caught as soon as I replaced in. The apathy in this game is unreal and the only people who are active seem to think Newbie's play somehow comes from a town mindset.

[Egg]

cause if there isn't than lynching you, shaddow and Newbie is guaranteed to have at least 2 scum in it.

Actually, this is interesting. Because if he does believe scum would have hammered (droog hasn't posted and Johnny hasn't caught up though so meh), the scum team would have to be Titus, shadow, and newbie from his PoV. Not sure that actually means anything, but it's kind of interesting in a way.

[Egg]

Or is Johnny caught up?

[Egg]

will NOT lynch

Gross misrep. He's probably my second choice. Either him or you.

The 'will lynch Karnage (who had plenty of opportunity to sneak in a hammer) over SP (who needs to be town, for this stance to make sense)' is interesting though.Why?

I think Karnage is much scummier than Something Pip.

Explicit refusal to answer something that could clear this thing up....... somehow i'm not surprised.

Actually, I answered. Read my post again.

Town-egg, if you are out there:- do you recall what happened when Mathilda did the same thing D1 (because Johnny told her to)? (admittedly the weakest in the list)- do you recall what happened when Mathilda did the same thing D2 (because RC told her to)?given your read on SP- do you see which way SP is heading now because (SP and) you are doing the EXACT SAME THING?

What same thing is that? Enlighten me.

Dude, READ THE FUCKING STORY. (it is 3 sentences long)I'm not accusing pip of being a terrible scum-player who would actually throw the game if being bussed.I'm accusing him of 'wifoming a buddy' on probably NOT a buddy (a decent scum-play)I have no intent what so ever to go after titus when SP flips scum. Stop pretending i claimed i would.Titus' parallel in the story IS THE COP. (the townie who got lynched, because the scum that got lynched the day before, knew what he was doing)

Ok. Sorry, averaging like 3 hours of sleep between my 16 hour shifts and taking care of a 1 year old. Guess I misunderstood you again.

Seriously?Yes from my PoV the possible scumteams are '3 out of [droog, titus, shadow ,newbie]' and 'SP and literally any other 2 players out there'.Given how it is pretty freakin clear from my Pov the scumteam isn 'SP +2 others'What is there remotely to be found here? (why did you scratch option 2? (or droog?))

Like I said, it doesn't mean anything. Just found it interesting. But context. You implied that you think scum would have hammered if Something Pip was town. That means if he's town, all three scum are already voting Something Pip. There are four votes on Something Pip. One is yours. So from your point of view, a Something Pip scum flip would confirm a Titus/shadow/newbie team from your PoV if you kept that stance.

[Egg]

Yeah this thread died. Make people talk while I'm at work

[Egg]

Anything that even remotely backs up the 'rabid zebra'

Your vote and entire focus for today back that up.

Then why did you bring it up?

Thought it was interesting. Like I said.

So again: why did you scratch droog? 

He hadn't hammered either. But you're right that he wasn't here and I see that you are now including him so it doesn't matter.

-------------------------

Droog, do you have a read on Mrtrow or do you need to read his posts towards something pip and myself before committing to one?

Pip's theory and how he presented it are scumclaims to me.

Why?

[Egg]

Yeah dude I'm definitely accusing you of something when I said it didn't matter and I just found it interesting. Lol

[Egg]

you know how trow basically couldn't find a scum team that didn't include him if we flip town. Yeah that should be all you need from hereon.

Didn't he think they'd be in Newbie/shadow/titus/droog and the world was ending or something?

[Egg]

If SP would flip town, i would have to reconsider absolutely everything (existence of the world, temperature of hell, stuff like that included)

[Egg]

I was responding to this, actually:

and the world was ending or something?

Any particular purpose to this (repeatedly shown to be unfounded) addition?

The other thing was answered here:

Your vote and entire focus for today back that up.

[Egg]

care to answer?

I did. It came exactly from your quote.

And debunked here:

Not really.

[Egg]

I dunno. I just remembered you saying it. It came to mind so I repeated it.

[Egg]

I still think Newbie is scum. Probably with Trow. Not sure who the third would be. I would say Karnage, but he spent all of yesterday voting Newbie and also has Trow as scum so that doesn't make much sense.

[Egg]

If it was easy, I'd have been able to push it through on Day 2 or 3.

[Egg]

Mrtrow, reads?

[Egg]

No need to be condescending. You asked them questions. That's not the same as calling them scum. I gave you enough credit to think that you were interested in their answers. Guess I was wrong.

[Egg]

So 'asking them not to respond', then?

I actually waited to comment specifically to allow them to respond first. But whatever fits your narrative.

Wasn't your entire D3 based on the decision to not give me that credit?

Actually, I was voting Newbie all of Day 3. I admit you made it hard for me to stay there though.

[Egg]

Are you claiming that your entire focus yesterday wasn't you going crazy about Something Pip and myself suspecting you? Because if I went back and quoted every post I'm talking about, it would basically be your entire Day 3 ISO. Like I said already. But you keep pretending I'm not.

[Egg]

I'm pretty sure droog, egg, and Karnage knew what Pip was going to flip.

I had a pretty good idea he was town, yeah. He'd been my second strongest town read for a while.

Mrtrow, then we disagree about what you were doing yesterday. I see you going after the people who thought you were scum and you see something else. *shrug*.

So how about you actually do that, actually go back and give me a list of things that did happen D3

Nah, I'm a phone poster. I'm not going back and quoting your entire Day 3 just to make a point.

 100% certain

I've never liked this phrase and I feel like town doesn't usually use it.

[Egg]

I don't have access to a computer. 100% of my posting is done from my phone. To quote an entire day of posting would take hours. It's not worth it when anyone who cares enough can just pull up your ISO.

[Egg]

Way out of context dude. I've pulled up your ISO plenty. I'm just not taking a few hours to plaster the thread with quotes.

If you don't think your entire Day 3 was coming after Something Pip and myself, I dunno what to tell you. Before that, you were relatively quiet so clearly the factthat we suspected you woke you up a bit.

[Egg]

I thought for sure I'd end up voting Newbie today, but I dunno. Maybe it's just frustration at having to repeat myself, but this doesn't look good.

[Egg]

- how does the fact that my vote on SP not only predates their 'case', but the case itself FLAT OUT ACKNOWLEDGES this, not debunk the accusation my suspicion was 'scummy reactionary', when it clearly was not reactionary?

Because regardless of who voted who first, you spent the entire day filling up the thread with quote wars with Something Pip and myself and it was an all out attack on his case and the fact that I agreed with parts of it.

can you find even a single thing that happened D3 that warranted a reaction from me, which i did not give? (what is it and where)

Nope. You've done a fair job of responding to everything.

Now it wouldn't surprise me, if in response to this you do end up repeating your usual: 'you pointed out half the times SP refused to answer questions, when he as a townie had no reason what so ever, to do so, which boils down to often, so i don't HAVE to answer anything'.But that won't help anyone, now will it.

Hmm. Those don't look like my words.

I must also say: not a fan of that 'you will back off, or i will vote you (i have to add a disclaimer here)'-post

Not what I said. Just starting to feel more confident in you being scum than Newbie. Well, maybe not quite. But it's getting close. Like I could almost go either way. If "backing off" is the strategy you choose to take to get me to town read you, I dunno. It's probably too late to make a difference. If anything, that would probably look worse at this point.

I've also been trying to find where i 'went after you

Every time I logged on, I had to respond to you. Are you telling me you were townreading me during our arguements? Because I didn't get that impression.

[Egg]

really?
You don't see how 'of course he wanted to 'miss the deadline', he knew the pending hammer was on a townie'
fits as an agreement of 'here is the actual timeline, of an attempt to 'miss the deadline' '?

you have to make everything
an argument
even when i said it doesnt matter

^Exactly!

egg id still vote newbie

Meh, I probably will. Just getting frustrated with all of this.

[Egg]

egg: How exactly is the read i had on you at the time in any way relevant to our little chat about whether or not newbie's votes were opportunistic?
Or anything else that actually happened?

droog:

droog: why are you looking to tell scum, who they need to leave alive for future mislynches
over finding arguments for the read you claim to already have?

Ugh. Fine. I'll do the quotes when I'm not working.

V/LA until Wednesday

[Egg]

Prod dodge.

[Egg]

Vote Karnage

At this point, I don't see it swinging any other way.

[Egg]

Wasn't planning to.

[Egg]

Trow, sorry if I frustrated you. Wall battles tend to look town vs town to an apathetic town, so when you asked why I agreed with Pip, I jumped at the opportunity. Also it was a chance to unvote Newbie without looking bad if she got close to a lynch. For what it's worth, I do honestly believe you focused on Pip and myself Day 3 and I honestly thought it was obvious enough not to need all of the quotes. But no hard feelings I hope?

titus: nice move on 'catching egg's v/la prod-dodge', i probably would have fallen for that if there would have been a D5.

I usually do that. Probably did it multiple times this game. After being prodded and almost replaced in a game while on V/LA, I'll continue to do it in games.

I've also been very close a few times to asking egg regarding the 'shrug, probably just PGO-dodge'-answer to the 'why kill off 'fresh perspective' if not to ensure the pending newbie-(prob-quick)lynch':Then why aren't you voting titus, who's slot was IN THE PROCESS OF FINDING REPLACEMENT that night: and thus the real safe bet?So by your logic should be scum

Wow. I'm glad this post never happened because that's a great catch. That kill was Titus' choice and she was worried about being caught on it. Fresh perspective was the exact reason Titus wanted that kill. I wouldn't have even known what to say.

Preview edit: RC, I legitimately dislike when people play the whole replace out AtE thing with no intention of leaving the game. The fact that you were scumreading me had nothing to do with it.

[Egg]

Wasn't planning to.

[Egg]

Trow, I was gonna do the quote thing. It was gonna be a huge block of every time you talked to something pip and myself with bolding every time you implied either of us was scum. And had you asked about Titus, I may very well have answered with *shrug*. I sure as hell wouldn't have done anything to draw attention to it. Burn was bussing Newbie so hard anyway that Titus didn't make sense as a Newbie buddy and I was voting Newbie, but I think people forgot about that so I stopped mentioning it.

I'm kinda sorry about how the game went. D3 was kinda "these are my reads and if I'm wrong fuck it" I had much much more doubt than I expressed, but w/e.

Yeah, the whole idea of coming up with reads before giving analysis and then using the analysis to support it thing is probably why it came off fake to so many people. When you do that, you start saying things you don't actually believe. And when there's one hole that disproves your logic (plugging in Newbie in my place eliminated the whole Trow/shadow/Egg connection) and you keep arguing for it, it just looks bad. When you have doubts, expressing them isn't always bad. And when you do an analysis, be open to the idea you were wrong when you started. Your overall play in the first two day was fine other than your reads. It's when you didn't seem to care that your whole case was confirmation bias where things fell apart.

did we get a scum qt?

We all agreed in there that it can be opened. Just waiting on Marcell I think.

[Egg]

I think quotes are more readable than spamming to be honest. I see a whole page of all one person and put off the whole game for a day.

Trow, a lot of your posts where you were argumentitive had points that only made sense if you were scumreading me. Even if you didn't mean it, that's how it comes off. I feel like I remember things to the effect of "I can't see town doing this". Let me see if I can find one on a quick glance:

Still not sold on

the 'sees an interpretation that doesn't make sense, decides not to consider having misread' (in a post that contains another admission of misreading, no less)

^Like this. If you aren't sold, you obviously think I'm not being truthful which implies a scum read. Really though, this was where I was doing my 16 hour work days and had trouble remembering what we were even arguing about. That can happen when I'm town too.

I mean, if i recall correctly, i didn't even imply ill-intent when you twisted my 3-line-story about why ' 'fake outrage at being bussed' might be a good scum tactic', into a call to lynch titus(who was considered top-townread by most

Actually, I really did read that as you scumreading Titus.

i'll try to pull the 'replace with links'-approach even further, but they didn't seem to do much this game

Yeah, I don't even open links. It's annoying to navigate away from the page I'm on or to open a new tab so I just skip over links. And yellow text, but that's another issue entirely lol.

[Egg]

For what it's worth, I actually like droog's enter key fetish as a posting style. I used to do that myself but it annoyed people for whatever reason...