Open 651: Stack the Deck (Game Over)

[SoraAdvent]

Don't know anyone here (coming back after some time), but gonna VOTE: Lycanfire because that's a scummy sounding name

[SoraAdvent]

Gonna make a longer post in a little bit - meanwhile, my timezone is GMT+8, and I won't be posting from about 12am-8am

[SoraAdvent]

Sora

- What sort of intentions do you have during RVS?

My initial intentions during RVS are just that: to vote completely randomly. Then, if I see any wagon developing or any particularly interesting thing, I'll place my votes differently, which brings us on nicely to how the game has developed so far.

~~~~

So, these are initial reads on the people who I think are the most striking so far, based on what I've seen - these are by no means accurate at all, but are just general impressions.

Quick reads
NJAC - Initial post shows signs of cluelessness. I’m inclined to read the vote on shadow more as town than as scum, because imo scum wouldn’t want to portray themselves as obviously clueless (this is fairly weak reasoning though, criticize me on that). Trying to bring up the point about the scumteam and what they did, is something that seems to be leaning townish as well - that he’s actually trying to actually do something within the game right now, instead of being passive (even though I definitely do not like the idea in the first place) I do not like, however, how quickly he moved to following the Innocent Child’s vote as soon as he realised he was the IC. I can see that he’d want to ‘make things happen’, using my previous line of logic, but it also seems to me that he’s trying to get on the IC’s good side, if only a little bit. Current read right now right now is null with a very slight lean towards town, as I can concede there are good reasons for following the IC in the RVS.

Vedith - I suppose the most notable things about Vedith are twofold. One, his reaction towards the scumteam suggestion NJAC put out, and two, his response. I like the way that Vedith's acted so far, as he's definitely showing a willingness to contribute though he admits that the overall aim of the discussion was pointless - it definitely seems to be a town-oriented mindset. However, his reactions towards kyndy101 and the other voters seem to be a little bit of an overreaction considering the relative lack of pressure on him. In that sense, then, I agree with Lycan's assessment that he's being over-defensive. What's more, he doesn't seem to be doing scumhunting on his own later on, which leads me to consider that he was participating in discussion for the sake of taking part in discussion. He also seems to have a few relatively useless posts that I'm not a fan of. They seem to be aimed at diffusing the tension while not contributing much at all - which is something I definitely don't like. Overall, though, I'm going to keep an eye on him and completely understand why people would vote against him.

Kyndy101 - I actually both agree and disagree with Sir Bastion that the random RVS unvote is somewhat suspicious. The unvote itself shows a little bit of passivity that I think is a bit more mafia-ish than town-ish, a little reticence and hesitation. However, I can also understand that the vote itself was made a little quickly to begin with, as the fact that superbowl was a goon did slip my mind as well - while I definitely don’t agree with the reasoning of retracting an RVS vote based on chance, it’s understandable. The Vedith vote is also fine in terms of getting things going (again, it’s possibly? still RVS, so I guess it’s acceptable), and she did say she’s going to make a case against Vedith tomorrow, which I’d love to see before passing further judgement. This post here is probably the most damning piece of evidence on what would otherwise be a null read, at least in my eyes. It seems to be a little bit reactionary and is more defensive than anything else in defending herself so avidly in response to a very small wagon. There is some slight nervousness here that's slightly suspicious, but again I'll hold off on further suspicion until the post explaining the Vedith vote is explained.

Seeing this, I'll UNVOTE: Lycanfire and VOTE: kyndy101, at least until kyndy101 makes her next post.
~~~~
Quick edit: Completely agree with Sir Bastion on the point about answering another's question - but again, I'm waiting to see kyndy's rationale on the Vedith vote before pressing further

[SoraAdvent]

OK gonna post a response to kyndy that will double as a sorta-Vedith ISO and some general thoughts on how the game has developed so far. I'm really not too much of a fan of Vedith after some recent postings, and I'll explain why, as well as provide a general reads list that I'll probably get to explaining tomorrow-ish.

Before all of that,

I'd like to ask everyone for their reads (even basic ones will do) apart from those who have already provided reads in the last page or two

.

~~~~

All this is addressed to this earlier post made by kyndy here

, point by point: not gonna quote cause I don't want this post to be more cluttered than it already is gonna be. If you want to ignore this it's fine, the bottom post is far more important.

@21: Don't understand the reasoning here at all, sorry. Kyndy, could you explain this a little further, please?

@31: Odd wording here could just be his phrasing in general, in terms of his confidence (or whatever you wanna call it). Definitely don't think it's a scumslip at all

@38: Vedith's reasoning for continuing discussion while thinking it's useless is because 'it doesn't hurt to discuss'. I do agree the reasoning is definitely odd though, it seems he wants to make his voice heard just cause, and is not so much concerned with contributing as just saying things.

@41: I think he's explicitly stated he's not changing his opinion, though his post is a little confusing. When he mentions 'plausable (sic), just not probably imo', he's talking about whether it'd be helpful to learn about the whole 'what scum chose' thing, and the scenario he offers is trying to prove that. I don't agree with his reasoning at all, and I think his rhetoric towards the end of the post is him trying to be confident for confident's sake - but again, I don't think it's a shift in opinion at all.

@57: Completely agreed that Vedith didn't see that the IC was confirmed by the mod and was playing otherwise. I'd be inclined to read this carelessness a little more as scum than as town, actually, as it's consistent with his previous behaviour. Vedith doesn't seem so much concerned with contributing, at least to me, that he's contributing just for the sake of maneuvering himself into a position where he can control the pace of the game. This then explains his sarcastic commentary and general dramatism. Without knowing anything about his past meta, I'd be inclined to read this as scum wanting to take control of discussion and then not contributing, but again I'm not too sure on that.

People who have played with Vedith before, can you summarize his town/scum play?

@58: Covered in 57

@60: I actually disagree with you that it's towny. I may be tunneling here, but I view that post as just trying to get his voice out there. The post is relatively non-commital while appearing to have the air of contribution, which is something that scum love to do in general. This is a softer read, but I'll just throw that out there.

@64: Seems to just be a sarcastic comment to me, more indicative of personality than scumminess/towniness imo

@71: Same as 64

@93: It's an open setup, it's definitely not a dayvig

@95: Just Vedith being Vedith, not too much to read into that. It was 2 votes at the time he posted so I'll give him that.

@97: OK, the vote on you was an RVS vote. He may have forgotten he voted you at this point, though I'm not too sure about that considering he's aware of the votecount. Don't want to discuss his reasoning as imo it's irrelevant to the discussion.

@107: I'm not as inclined to read into his words that reactions mean nothing. From what I've seen of his play so far, he's making a lot of bluster but isn't providing reasoning (I'll quote with examples if anyone wants that), so I don't mind that. Don't think he ignored Light completely, he just went off on a tangent himself. Again, without meta I'm inclined to read this as scum, but on this instance I am less sure.

@115: He's being sarcastic, as he usually is.

@132: Kyndy, I really think you're being overdramatic. His vote on you is not due to legit suspicion, he really hasn't formed a case on anyone yet. But you're already getting defensive based on an RVS vote. I get that you may not have noticed it was an RVS vote, but it really is a little bit too defensive for my liking.

Overall, though, I'm a OK with this post. It is defensive, yes, and I don't like the reasoning at points but my instinct leans towards town because of how genuine it feels overall. Kyndy seems to really be trying to contribute, but again, I'm not too sure, I'd like to wait for a reads list before passing further judgement.

~~~~

Responding to Vedith's 132 here as well.

1) My vote is as a response to my current thoughts, not the possibility of future things. If things happen that will change my opinion of who's scummy, I'll change my vote. There's zero point in voting based on future things, as it's impossible to judge things that haven't happened.

2) Would like a little more explanation on why her ISO is weak, please, other than general commentary.

3) Meta is meta, I'll look around yours and her meta a little before commenting on anything else.

This segues on nicely into why I really don't like Vedith's recent postings. After he goes off on how I'm wrong on kyndy (which is fair enough, argument is always good), what seems to surprise me is that he doesn't go after anyone else and instead makes posts like 140 (one-liner on kyndy's case with no reasoning), 142 (responding to a post on theory, little to do with actual game issues like kyndy's argument on him), and 148 (super non-comittal, wants to make the air of contributing without actually doing so). To me, that's an absolute shocker considering how active he has been throughout the game in trying to contribute: I'd venture to say that he could've maybe stated, if only briefly, who his main suspects are. While I can concede that it's relatively early in the game and that he hasn't had the opportunity to fully expand his reads yet given that he's in UK time (which is fair enough if he's working or otherwise), I'm more than a little concerned how even though he's been posting a lot he hasn't been working to push for reads at all. Also, given his trend of posting, he seems to be the type to inform us if he's working on reads, seeing as how he makes multiple short posts during the day and informed me he was readying a response but was busy with work.

To sum, his posts are non-comittal and reactionary, which to me are quite clear scumtells. In light of this, I'll UNVOTE: kyndy101 and VOTE: Vedith for now. As always, if you need further reasoning I'll be willing to analyse his posts, but that needs to be for tomorrow.

~~~~

Regardless, not considering the hydras and Raskolnikov I'll try to form an initial reads list by tomorrow-ish if there's not too much else but here are some really really brief thoughts that come up to me and a more general list based purely on instinct. I'll probably look into NJAC as well with possible links to Vedith if nothing else comes up.

Reads List

Scum (S>W):

Vedith, NJAC, kyndy101 (prior two relatively strong-ish, kyndy slightly less so but not much)

Null(S>T):

Lycan, Hydras + Raskolnikov, light_ganski

Town (S>W):

shadowezz (conftown), superbowl9, Sir Bastion

[SoraAdvent]

@NJAC: Can you please give reads of some sort? I'd love to see who you consider to be the prime suspect now, if you don't mind.

[SoraAdvent]

Apologies for my lack of patience, sorry. I'm fairly tired and it's been a long day, but I wanna respond to 162 before I head to sleep. I'll get to rereading the game sometime soon as well.

1) Well, because it's an analysis of another player that could potentially better strengthen my own reads of both Vedith and Kyndy (particularly Vedith, who I wanted to scrutinize further). If you look at my post, I mention how some of the reasoning is valid, then go on to say that I like the post despite some faults in reasoning, making Kyndy more of a townread for me.

2) Yes, I may be wishy-washy at points in time (which I fully admit) but I honestly don't think it's right to call things too confidently yet, considering how it's still early in the game. But that's fair enough, if it's a tell for you I guess it's fine.

3) Your point about my agree/disagree thing is cherry-picking what I'm actually saying. I clearly spell out in that same section how I think unvoting itself is suspicious (i.e. scum), but then mention explain that given how it's an RVS vote it becomes more understandable (i.e. town).

Kyndy101 - I actually both agree and disagree with Sir Bastion that the random RVS unvote is somewhat suspicious.

The unvote itself shows a little bit of passivity that I think is a bit more mafia-ish than town-ish, a little reticence and hesitation. However, I can also understand that the vote itself was made a little quickly to begin with, as the fact that superbowl was a goon did slip my mind as well - while I definitely don’t agree with the reasoning of retracting an RVS vote based on chance, it’s understandable.

This portion bolded here may help you to understand why I made the argument I did when I did. To address your other point, just because I shifted my vote from Kyndy to Vedith you assume I'm bandwagoning and trying to gain favor, when you're forgetting the other thing that happened during that time - kyndy's post. I explained just now that I don't like some of the reasoning in her post, but I think she's more of a townread now, then voted Vedith because his posts have looked increasingly worse. Whether you accept my reasoning is up to you at this point, but from my point of view you're jumping to conclusions awfully quickly.

At this point I might call a NJAC/Vedith scumteam as an initial accusation, but it's 2am and I'm not thinking straight so I'm gonna finish this and sleep.

PEdit: You were null leaning on town, I've explained one of your scummy actions in that post as well. Reads can change, you know, and I'll explain my reasoning tomorrow, if you don't mind.

[SoraAdvent]

I don't want to pester you too much, but before you do anything else Vedith could I get a reads list please?

[SoraAdvent]

Reads post coming in ~1 hour

[SoraAdvent]

Something came up: I'll not be able to finish my post to a satisfactory level today and I'm already 30 mins late so

I'll post what I do have now and finish off thoughts on the rest later. For now vote stays on Vedith, but highly suspicious of NJAC.

~~~~

NJAC - mentioned before briefly, but I don't like just blindly sheeping the IC by any means at all. Here in 59, he mentions his reasoning is that it's a nice place to be: that doesn't seem to me to be solid reasoning at all and seems to be an attempt to curry favor with the IC. Followup post attempting to explain his reasoning is weak at best. There is a gigantic flip in opinion between what he says here in 119 regarding my initial thoughts on Vedith in my more general reads post (when he says 'I agree with what you said about Vedith. I'm also not a fan of his recent posts.'), where he completely sheeps what I say on Vedith, to here in 162, where he claims that I'm suddenly switching onto Vedith. I already have had reservations about Vedith, but the fact that he suddenly switches on me for something like this is odd. I get the concern, definitely, but I think? I've put more than enough effort into explaining my positions that I'm not opportunistically voting someone.

Regardless, his behaviour overall is really really wishy-washy and also smacks of someone who's getting overly flustered very quickly. Now that in itself isn't bad, but placing it in the context of Vedith's recent actions and other reactions it makes it look worse. Seeing that the pressure is on him/Vedith, he instantly casts anyone who doesn't consider them to be towny in any way/shape/form as 'scum'. Looking at his reads list, made before superbowl's longer post, he considers myself and superbowl to be the most leaning scum, while considering Vedith and Bastion to be more towny. Superbowl and I have been the most offensive on NJAC so far. Following on from this, after superbowl's 177 where he

actually calls out NJAC

, he posts a rather baffling 180, where he '(likes) superbowl's 177', despite it being a post against him. Personally, I interpret this as being a way to defuse the tension between him and superbowl so the latter wouldn't suspect him at once, but at the very least the wishy-washiness is really really jarring. I'm gonna be honest, I'm not 100% sure on this read, but at this point I'm interpreting his actions as scum flailing.

kyndy - I've already expressed my thoughts on her overreactive behaviour which you can find here. As mentioned in this post, however, I like the post she made with regards to Vedith, at least in its intent - if I'm not mistaken, someone said scum wouldn't tunnel on someone this early, and to be honest I kind of agree with that statement, though not fully. In addition, although I do think her reads are playing it super safe right now (not deviating too much from myself/superbowl's reads which are posted on the same page), I like the effort shown towards straight-up contributing to the town. I still have my reservations, so I'm gonna say null leaning scum with some confidence (as oxymoronic as that is)

Lycanfire - Reading kinda null on his first five or so posts. Both are relatively nothingish posts that imo are still fine in the early game, as nothing's set in stone yet. I don’t like how he basically hasn’t contributed at all to the game even in later posts as the game develops past even 100 or so, made clear in his RVS vote on 101 and not contributing at all to the game on 149, then being completely inactive for the last 24 hours or so. Definitely null leaning scum to me, at the very least.

Question to Lycanfire: can you provide reads, please?

(unfinished)

Superbowl - Probably town, has contributed a lot to the development of the town and provides very strong analysis overall. First person to post reads is definitely a plus in terms of kickstarting activity and moving past the RVS post. (unfinished)

~~~~

Pedit: OK, I'll respond to Vedith's 179 and 209. I'm really angry and tired, so expect this to be rambly. I won't be providing evidence/explanations yet but will hopefully do so over the course of the next day or so. Take this as a mini post on Vedith if you like.

179:

I want to know your meta before this. I haven't had the time/motivation to do so yet, but I really want to read it over the next couple of days to make my read stronger - because I don't know whether you naturally act like this or not. Basically, comparing your actions in this game with your previous town/scum actions will help my read on you be more certain.

As for why I said it was Vedith being Vedith, I think 95's a perfect example of the type of posts you make. Short, contributing something to the town and relatively non-commital. Also it's in the context of replying to kyndy, and she was confused as to what it meant - if you need me to explain this clearer I will.

209:

You're acting in a severely anti-town way. First, you continually refute the current arguments on kyndy and the like, which is fine in and of itself. However, you don't even bother to attack anyone else (your vote is still on kyndy from RVS, for goodness' sake), and you end up just distracting the town while making sure nothing's being done to further the game forward. You use straw man arguments to portray opposing people's arguments as stupid, you respond in posts that appear to contribute and be confident but are hilariously non-commital, and again don't bother pushing the game in any particular direction. I really want to hope that you're just town acting in a manner that's incredibly distracting and, if I may be a little bit blunt, kind of useless, but it makes sense to think you're scum who's deliberately trying to get you/your partners off the heat.

Your multiple posts may suggest you're active, but you're in reality saying nothing at all. You say things and don't back them up with anything other than a hand wave of things like 'The case on the random unvote is weak, and too weak for a vote on her imo. Her "defending herself" I disagree with.', which doesn't explain

WHY

you disagree at all.

In short, please actually contribute to the town by providing your reads instead of constantly refuting arguments and in general distracting the town.

~~~~

Reads List

Scum (S>W):

Vedith, NJAC, Lycanfire (a little less so), Kyndy

Null (S>T):

Hebee Inc, Raskolnikov (full null), Sir Bastion

Town (S>W):

shadow (conf), superbowl, HighHopes

Defo have confirmation bias here but w/e they're initial reads anyways.

[SoraAdvent]

UNVOTE: Vedith. I'm going to have to swallow my pride and admit that I was completely and totally off on everything in this game so far. My focus over the next couple of days is to just go back and reread the game and focus on the Vedith/NJAC interaction in some detail. At this point I'm not even sure of any of my reads anymore. Before this, I'd like to address a few of the points made against me.

~~~~

Re: Vedith

I want to know your meta before this.

As for why I said it was Vedith being Vedith, I think 95's a perfect example of the type of posts you make.

Scum found.
You want to know my meta, but you imply that you know it already from the type of posts I make.
This could be Vedith not being Vedith, but you have already decided that this is Vedith being Vedith while asking for meta on me.
And you can't say that this is wrong, because you are responding to a comment about me with saying that it's my usual play, just to ignore it (TYhis is what I get from, Vedith being Vedith).

Your reads are basically mirror with High Hopes (Who I haven't decided yet if I think scum or not)

Why did I keep my vote on Kyndy? I wanted to see what scum would use this to their advantage. In 156 he defends me voting Kyndy, in 220 he uses it for an excuse to push me as scum, but in a subtle way.

1) Regarding the first point: I think you're completely misunderstanding what I'm saying at all. Why would I bother asking about meta not once, but so many times, if I already knew how you played? It'd be a useless waste of time.

2) My statement on the types of post you make are based on your past behaviour. I posted this in 156 as well, which I think sums up my thoughts about how you've posted, and is what I'm referring to when I refer to your posts as such.

To sum, his posts are non-comittal and reactionary, which to me are quite clear scumtells.

3) I presume that for your third and fourth point you're asking me about me about this post I made here.

4) For your next point, I posted my reads before High Hopes did and have modified them only very slightly.

5) How do I defend your vote on Kyndy in any way? I said that you're arguing against me on kyndy back in 156, and that's good.

After he goes off on how I'm wrong on kyndy (which is fair enough, argument is always good),

Back here, my vote was on kyndy and yours was on her as well. I don't defend you voting kyndy at all, and even say this in the same post.

His vote on you is not due to legit suspicion, he really hasn't formed a case on anyone yet

. But you're already getting defensive based on an

RVS vote.

I get that you may not have noticed it was an RVS vote, but it really is a little bit too defensive for my liking.

I guess you could interpret this as being supportive of your vote, but my intent was to say your vote was an RVS one and not based in fact, and Kyndy's overreaction to that RVS vote is a little worrying. I don't think I flip on it at all in my later post (220): I mention your vote is an RVS vote twice, and in both cases say that your vote is weak.

~~~~

Re: Sir Bastion

1) Yeah, apologies for my formatting issues. I can't find any way to make it easier to read, apologies. As for posting my train of thought, I have a serious problem with not being able to control what I actually say and get across.

2) I don't think I'm sitting on the kyndy wagon at all. I've been pushing for Vedith over the last couple of posts I've made, with NJAC as a close second. I'm keeping an eye on kyndy without being too commital as I'm watching for how her actions develop over the course of the next few posts. I'm unsure on her recent posts, and I don't want to force a read that I'm not sure on, and even more so now considering what happened when I believed Vedith was right.

3) I think reads are useful as a starting point and can be very helpful in kickstarting the game past RVS mode. I felt the game was already moving past RVS, but needed a little bit of a push to move things along. Knowing what reads people have is actually immensely helpful to see who they're potentially buddying with (in terms of who they're being soft on), but the act of providing reads in themselves can be analysed. From things like what tells they pick up on, to their structure you can really tell a lot about who a person is based on reads. Also they provide a really good discussion over whether a person deserves a town/scum read, and probably most importantly they force you to take a look at the game overall.

~~~~

As of right now doing some initial reading I'd say my initial read on NJAC was definitely wrong, but as I mentioned I'll get back to that later.

[SoraAdvent]

@Vedith: mind responding to my post here, please?

[SoraAdvent]

@Vedith: mind responding to my post here, please?

I assume you mean these parts -

1) Regarding the first point: I think you're completely misunderstanding what I'm saying at all. Why would I bother asking about meta not once, but so many times, if I already knew how you played? It'd be a useless waste of time.

- Because you fucked up

2) My statement on the types of post you make are based on your past behaviour. I posted this in 156 as well, which I think sums up my thoughts about how you've posted, and is what I'm referring to when I refer to your posts as such.

- Why would how I am posting all game give me justification for certain posts?

3) I presume that for your third and fourth point you're asking me about me about this post I made here.

- I don't know what my 3rd or 4th point was as I didn't actually do it in points, I made a post.

4) For your next point, I posted my reads before High Hopes did and have modified them only very slightly.

- I didn't say you posted them after, I said they mirror up.

5) How do I defend your vote on Kyndy in any way? I said that you're arguing against me on kyndy back in 156, and that's good.

OK, the vote on you was an RVS vote. He may have forgotten he voted you at this point, though I'm not too sure about that considering he's aware of the votecount. Don't want to discuss his reasoning as imo it's irrelevant to the discussion.

You justify why my vote is there and even call the issue irrelevant.
With your response, it confirms that you saw my vote as an issue and felt it was a scummy action to keep it on Kyndy.

Was there anything else you wanted me to go over on your post?

1) If I knew your meta, you'd see me use it in my case against if you if and when I could - I've stated multiple times that I haven't read it before, hence my need to ask around. I don't get why you think that my posts imply a knowledge of your meta by any means, but that's a semantic issue that I've already explained (and that superbowl has explained far better than I can). When I mention that you 'always act like this', I mean that your actions are consistent with your past behaviour within the game.

2) Because then your actions can be explained as less scummy, as instead they're part of your personality, if you understand what I mean. For example, while I may initially read some of your posts as scummish (relatively short bursts of posting, very reactionary style), upon looking at your past behaviour they can become less so. This is also part of the reason why when I have more time I intend to read up on your meta: if I can determine that you play like this even in your town games, it helps me form a better read of you instead of relying on my own tells (which may or may not be outdated/flat-out wrong)

3) What I meant was the third and fourth lines in post 222, starting from 'This could be' to 'Vedith being Vedith'.

4) You mention that I'm scum in the post, then mentioned that my posts are similar to HighHopes. Since you're placing me under suspicion by calling me scum, I assumed that the reason you said we have similar reads was because I was sheeping him, and that to you is a scumtell. I stated what I did based on this, because I posted my reads before HighHopes had posted and modified them slightly.

Therefore;
If you mentioned that HH and my reads are similar because I copied him, that's not true because I posted first.
If you mentioned that HH and my reads are similar for another reason, why did you do that?

5) I mentioned you were aware of the votecount at the very end. While I say it's an RVS vote and that you may have forgotten about it,

I also mention that you're aware of the votecount

, and thus you have no excuse for not being aware that your vote is on kyndy. To be fair, I did hedge my arguments, and you can criticize me for that.

I think you're misunderstanding what I meant by reasoning. By reasoning, I don't mean the reasoning for. If you take a look at post 97, you mention "As scum, why would she want to give town less options to focus on, and more of a chance to focus her?". I didn't want to discuss this as I thought it wasn't the main point of kyndy's argument, which was that your vote was still on her while you were arguing against it.

All in all though I definitely think we're spinning wheels and I'm leaning town-ish on you right now so I'm not going to pursue this any further. Hopefully I can get the NJAC post up sooner or later, but it's probably gonna be tomorrow at earliest.

[SoraAdvent]

OK here's

So for the vast majority of the game NJAC and Vedith seem to be reading each other as town based on this interaction here near the beginning of the game, after NJAC initially calls out Shadow for selfvotinghere in 20.

Then, after shadow posts this:

It's unlikely scum would be questioning my alignment

Vedith immediately agrees by posting this:

It's unlikely scum would be questioning my alignment

Shadow and NJAC are town then.
We're getting somewhere!

Agreeing with the IC immediately is something I didn't pick up on before, and that's a little suspicious in and of itself, how he just flat-out agrees without stating any reasoning whatsoever. The later posts seem to indicate he's not being sarcastic, either, since he maintains this throughout the game. Soon after he makes this post, which 'confirms' a town-team of NJAC/Lycan/Shadow with very little evidence of Lycan.

What is really interesting is that NJAC follows this up soon by somewhat agreeing with my post suspecting Vedith in 119, then immediately turning around and saying that Vedith is a part of the town-team in 120.

@Sora:

I agree with what you said about Vedith. I'm also not a fan of his recent posts.

However Kindy is more in the townie side of null for me, but I'll let her defend herself.

So, we are the Town-Team. Why is Lycan listed with us?

My theory is that he doesn't want to appear suspicious by immediately jumping to Vedith's defence as soon as I attacked him, regardless if Vedith's town or not, because if he did so it'll be really obvious that he's trying to protect him. In fact, if we assume Vedith's town and NJAC is trying to curry his favor (being aware of this), 120 becomes fascinating. He refers to Vedith as we even though there's no evidence supporting Vedith as town at that point. Sure, you could argue that NJAC's townslip was evidence of him being town, but on that basis alone he considered Vedith town himself? The fact that there's not an iota of suspicion on NJAC ironically makes me suspicious of him.

Or I could just be reading this wrong and it's sarcasm, so sue me.

~~~~

OK, so I may be reading way too far into this one, but I really don't like the feel of NJAC's defense of Vedith one bit in this post here.

I don't see a "solid case" against Vedith, and many of your points against him are based on posts he made after you announced your "solid case".

Your arguments seem forced and written just for the sake of supossedly support a scumread, but I have to say they're weak and most of the posts of Vedith are saturated with sarcasm (a bigger dose of it than what I'd like to read, tbh) more than scumminess.

However, this one is a valid point and I want to see Vedith's response:

Why would reactions mean nothing? Also, why are you overlooking Light Ganski's comment by offering the point of looking for a reaction?

While, yes, this is the style of posting that NJAC has adopted (clear from his posts within the game, don't know his meta at all), I don't like the way it's written. Yes, I don't think kyndy's post was very well reasoned, but NJAC doesn't provde any reasoning at all. He says that they're weak and saturated with sarcasm, but doesn't note any examples within her post or explain why they're weak. He makes a point that her posts have come after, but it still seems like a stretch to me, and the softball question he quotes to Vedith seems to me to be an attempt to balance his post out to appear less scummy.

Let's compare this to his post against me.

@Sora WRT 156:
You initially supported Bastion's push on Kindy with arguments in 114 like

"I actually both agree and disagree with Sir Bastion that the random RVS unvote is somewhat suspicious"

(so you agree but at the same time disagree? ), and now that the wagon on Vedith is starting to gain some traction you suddenly end up supporting Kindy's push on him.

IDK but to me your post seems as an excuse to opportunistically vote Vedith.

I'm happy with my vote on you.

When he sees that my post on Vedith starts ramping things up a little more (eventually leading to his claim of Goon Cop), then he does immediately start to react against me (perhaps he didn't think kyndy was worth the time to respond to). I'd like to focus on the second part the quote, which I've quoted. He believes that my explanation isn't adequate, and that the wagon is heating up -

the most important thing to note is that at the time he posted, Vedith only had two votes.

Yes, he may think that my paragraph of explaining why I don't like Vedith's posting is fine, and that's all well and good, but to me (and this is just an emotional read), he seems to be flustered that I'm attacking him. This then makes me think that he's just focused on defending him, and I find it hard to believe it's simply because Vedith calls him town.

This ties in to his reads post here as well.

@NJAC: Can you please give reads of some sort? I'd love to see who you consider to be the prime suspect now, if you don't mind.

Yep, I was going to give my reads after commenting on some recent posts. A bit of patience please.

Leaning scum: Sora, superbowl.
Null: light, kindy, Lycan, everyone else
Leaning town: Bastian, Vedith, shadow

Guess which two people had a scumlean on Vedith? Superbowl had his reads in 154, and I voted for him as well.

~~~~

At this point the post is looking pretty crowded but posts like 187, 218 and 221 aren't exactly helping this case. In conclusion, I honestly think Vedith is probably town at this point and NJAC might be just trying to buddy up with him to garner his favor.

That being said, VOTE: NJAC

[SoraAdvent]

@Vedith you've been pretty opinionated about NJAC being town so far. Mind answering my post when you're free?

Also, I'm waiting on posts from High Hopes and superbowl before pushing anything further. It's annoying that NJAC is on V/LA though, might just do a kyndy reread in the meantime

[SoraAdvent]

@Vedith you've been pretty opinionated about NJAC being town so far. Mind answering my post when you're free?

Also, I'm waiting on posts from High Hopes and superbowl before pushing anything further. It's annoying that NJAC is on V/LA though, might just do a kyndy reread in the meantime

I don't see a post directed to me?

This post here regarding my scumread (and subsequent vote) on NJAC.

[SoraAdvent]

Gonna respond to a few things here before I post thoughts on kyndy and light hopefully within the next two/three days or so. In the mean time I'll respond to Bastion here.

@Sir Bastion: My case on Vedith was based on his lack of action despite his activity, like how he was arguing with me on kyndy without pushing a single scumread of his own, which led me to believe that he was playing rather in a rather reactionary way (which was supported by his other posts). Meanwhile, my case on NJAC was based on his 'buddying', so to speak, on Vedith, based on how he treats Vedith as town without too much explanation and his attackson those who treat Vedith as scum (primarily myself and superbowl). I wouldn't mind a defense of Vedith by any means, but the fact that he was so adamant on defending him without much explanation before the claim leads me to believe that something's definitely up.

Regardless, let's get to the topic of Hebee. While it could be because they're a hydra and need to confer with each other, I definitely think Hebee's coasting to a certain degree. This is because of relatively naked reasoning on most votes and a relative lack of activity, and also his flip-flopping on certain votes just screams insecurity. Still think NJAC's probably scummier until I hear his response but would be OK with a Hebee lynch today pending further reading on light and kyndy. If you need me to provide more reasoning I'll do a quick scan, but Hebee's not my top scumread right now.

[SoraAdvent]

@sora who are you not okay with lynching today?

Right now? In no particular order:

Superbowl9, Lycanfire, Vedith, HighHopes, Raskolnikov, shadowezz, Sir Bastion

Which leaves (again in no order except for NJAC)

NJAC, Hebee Inc, light_ganski, kyndy101

Obviously all this is subject to change especially as I reread kyndy so

[SoraAdvent]

Why exactly aren't you ok with lynching HH?

General contributions are good, seem to be actually concerned with pushing the game along in providing reads, makes a ton of sense. Even when reads aren't necessarily explained they help to generate discussion. Again, there are far scummier targets than HH right now.

Can you answer my question now: why do you want a lynch on HH? You seem to have implied it in your post. Also, when can you respond to my post suspecting you?

[SoraAdvent]

@mod: V/LA for the next 2 days or so

Don't worry NJAC, I'll try to get back at you before then. I've mentioned before who I'd be OK with lynching but access for me will be intermittent at best

[SoraAdvent]

Even busier over the next couple of days, will try to post but intermittent access at best. If I can't post properly within the next 5 days or so I'll replace out

Thanks for letting me know.