Open 576: The Enemy of my Enemy is my...Enemy? (Day 2)

[Mathdino]

Interesting how much confbias your arguments have and how little that things can change your mind.

I was suspicious of mastin. But scumastin in multiball is still worth listening to. In fact, anyone at ANY point is worth listening to despite your read on them, if they make a good point. Since I came up with the same townreads as mastin, it follows that her PoE is effective for me.

I'm guessing you'll notice where I changed my mind on Oilura if you keep reading my ISO. In essence, the new information Oilura presented after everyone raged at him for hammering put his actions in a whole new light.

[Mathdino]

Furthermore, I didn't analyse your ISO yesterday. You were on my suspicions list due to PoE. When I decided to go through it and after seeing the argument that you were buddying TGS, it pinged badly to me.

[dragonspawn]

I correctly predicted that the entire day would revolve around Astinus and her dumb move, and when this happens, player interactions are always more difficult to analyse pre-flip when one player goes and hijacks the day. Furthermore, I knew it'd probably end earlier than usual despite our collective best efforts to promote further discussion.

You'll also note that I in no way stopped putting in effort, and I tried to invent a possible strategy to deal with Astinus in order to get more out of that discussion than "Astinus confscum, let's lynch". And at the end of the day, I did watch interactions between people and came up with reads.

If I wanted an excuse to not put in effort, why didn't I follow through with that? 37 was a sarcastic comment, nothing more.

Edit: Implying answering a question to the best of my ability is buddying. I want people to be able to effectively metaread me because it doesn't get us caught up on pointless debates about the past.
Honestly, part of the reason I jumped on Oilura was the comment on mental stability and trying to use that as a reason to lynch mastin. It pissed me off.

Edit2: Uh, how's that a backtrack? I said I was hoping to put in more effort than would be required to lynch Astinus. In 107, I tried to promote that by not encouraging a quicklynch.

because when you realized how scummy it looked you needed to backtrack. Hence the quick unvote and call for more time.

[Riabi]

@Riabi:

See, I still don't quite understand why, say, 2birds is below TGS on your list. You concede that TGS has displayed some scummy behaviour, but her willingness to scumhunt outweighs that. What makes you put 2birds below someone who we agree has been at least slightly scummy?

Shit, that was actually a mistake on my part. I meant to have the two of them switched. That's what I get for doing a copy/paste of my last list and making changes, rather than just re-typing the list. I'm sorry for the confusion.

Also, thoughts on guille's behaviour between your last 2 posts?

I think he still leans scum. If you look at what he's really posting, he's made several posts, but only two of them are, IMO really substantive. In 294 he makes a good point about Nova, and in 296 where he makes a case (albeit weak, IMO) against me. Other than that, he seems to be posting fluff. I suspect it might be an effort to look townish.

y u no early vote me

I'm not sure if you actually want an answer to this or not... but, because I don't like seeing direct questions go unanswered, it's because I like to make up a lot of bullshit in RVS. :p

P-edit: Dragonspawn's case on dino is, IMO, complete and utter crap. Also, dragonspawn, you were asked a few direct questions, you didn't asnwer them. This is ok, shit gets missed, but then in 312 you were asked... again, this time in bold. It seems like you are avoiding these questions, is that the case?

[Mathdino]

because when you realized how scummy it looked you needed to backtrack. Hence the quick unvote and call for more time.

I don't think I understand you here. Astinus flipped town. Are you saying I unvoted in order to defend her and not get her lynched? Because this argument only makes sense if Astinus and I were buddies.

I realised how scummy it looked when she first made the self-vote. I backtracked after some bastard put her at L-1 within the first few pages. Guess what? She was hammered anyway .

Maaayyybe the majority of my games have involved a derphammer or a speedlynch of some sort and I'm tired of reckless wagons that cut off discussion.

Edit: Thanks Riabi. And no, I don't care about your random vote, haha. Was just the first post I saw when I meta'd you.

[dragonspawn]

Furthermore, I didn't analyse your ISO yesterday. You were on my suspicions list due to PoE. When I decided to go through it and after seeing the argument that you were buddying TGS, it pinged badly to me.

so back to the claim I'm buddying teen.

the new information we have on makes her much scummier looking. Not less. Maybe you thought staging a conflict day one with her would create doubt on being scum buddies. But it doesn't make sense that your scummiest read some how becomes less scummy when she acts summer.

[Mathdino]

Wait two seconds math. Sheesh. Takes time to go through everything.


oil is probably my biggest scum read right now. Math probably second. Still haven't seen much fro. Njac or nova so maybe them.

as for birds in still thinking he is town. Misguided about me and I'm not understanding the statement I quoted but still pretty much a town read.

I'll have some more reads later when I can look through everything again.

Riabi you missed this. He directly answered the questions here.

But yeah, it's crap, mostly due to him seeing a scummy behaviour and assuming everyone else, including me, would find it scummy (which would cause the backpedaling).

Edit: What? I really don't understand you here, DS. The new information on you and TGS makes YOU scummier than it makes TGS. Whether or not TGS is scum with you, on opposite teams, or is town, this isn't affecting my read on you.

[Riabi]

Speaking of questions, I have a few:

Dino, what do you think of Oilura's hammer and subsequent defense? Do either seem scummy to you?

For those of you who aren't set on dspawn/TGS, it may be worth noting that dspawn/Oilura is extremely unlikely.

Why?

P-edit... Ok then, I did miss those. My apologies dragonspawn. And thank you dino.

[dragonspawn]

because when you realized how scummy it looked you needed to backtrack. Hence the quick unvote and call for more time.

I don't think I understand you here. Astinus flipped town. Are you saying I unvoted in order to defend her and not get her lynched? Because this argument only makes sense if Astinus and I were buddies.

I realised how scummy it looked when she first made the self-vote. I backtracked after some bastard put her at L-1 within the first few pages. Guess what? She was hammered anyway .

Maaayyybe the majority of my games have involved a derphammer or a speedlynch of some sort and I'm tired of reckless wagons that cut off discussion.

Edit: Thanks Riabi. And no, I don't care about your random vote, haha. Was just the first post I saw when I meta'd you.

you invited because you realized it looked scummy to say there was no more effort needed and because she was at L1 and it was obvious if she got lynched your vote would look bad.

side: I saw your post riabi and I may have missed some questions. I'll go back and double check later. I don't have any more time to spend here at the moment

[dragonspawn]

Wait two seconds math. Sheesh. Takes time to go through everything.


oil is probably my biggest scum read right now. Math probably second. Still haven't seen much fro. Njac or nova so maybe them.

as for birds in still thinking he is town. Misguided about me and I'm not understanding the statement I quoted but still pretty much a town read.

I'll have some more reads later when I can look through everything again.

Riabi you missed this. He directly answered the questions here.

But yeah, it's crap, mostly due to him seeing a scummy behaviour and assuming everyone else, including me, would find it scummy (which would cause the backpedaling).

Edit: What? I really don't understand you here, DS. The new information on you and TGS makes YOU scummier than it makes TGS. Whether or not TGS is scum with you, on opposite teams, or is town, this isn't affecting my read on you.

what does tgs have to do with our discussion on oil?

[guille2015]

I think he still leans scum. If you look at what he's really posting, he's made several posts, but only two of them are, IMO really substantive. In 294 he makes a good point about Nova, and in 296 where he makes a case (albeit weak, IMO) against me. Other than that, he seems to be posting fluff. I suspect it might be an effort to look townish.

That's it?? Well, if you'd believe this, I guess you'd have reason to consider me "Leaning scum". So it's a matter of the other players to consider if they agree with you or not. I don't agree but, I'd say that regardless.

Now, here are things that I am considering for Riabi.

I went through his Meta, as Math suggested, and although I skimmed through it, I didn't see much of what Math saw. And his scum game was early and replaced out, so not really indicative.

After I pointed out that he had 2 scum in a 4 scum game, his following list contains 4 scum. I would normally see scum more complaint to questions from town.

Clusk again. He mentions that Clusk is probably scum for not contributing anything. This is a fallacy just as saying that he was town, which he did agree on. He placed Clusk below NJAC when NJAC had the same or even less contribution than Clusk. If he were judging base on contribution, I wouldn't be so low there.

These are not damning, because 1 is very weak and 2 and 3 could easily come from a town player. That doesn't mean that I can lift my suspicions. I need better interactions from Riabi during the following days to get a better feel from him.

2Bird: What are your thoughts on Riabi now?

[Mathdino]

Dino, what do you think of Oilura's hammer and subsequent defense? Do either seem scummy to you?

Yes, actually, the hammer seems super scummy at first glance. However, I think it should be clear that had Oilura NOT defended himself for that move (after everyone bitching about it in twilight), most people including me would've condemned him for it. I really don't get why coming out of the gate explaining yourself is in any way a scummy move.

Now, said defence makes it clear that Oilura is from a different site and there, there are clearly no problems with hammering who you think is scum. Note that this matches his general behaviour fairly well, including the fact that he townreads pretty much everyone talking. Scum-Oilura shouldn't have a problem making up some crap case on someone talkative. He was able to run a case on mastin. What's the difference? His scumhunting seems to involve going after the worst players, and assuming that anyone defending said players must be the partner. This is true on other sites. Bussing and distancing is far more prevalent here, and WKing happens most often from scum to town, or frustrated town to town.

I think Oilura's a fish out of water who needs to figure out how to breathe. And even if he is useless, his actions don't really follow a scum motivation with all the info at hand. If I were to go after Oil for having dumb reads, that'd be a PL, and I'm not okay with policy lynching someone in a game with 2 NKs.

you invited because you realized it looked scummy to say there was no more effort needed and because she was at L1 and it was obvious if she got lynched your vote would look bad.

Yeah, except... it wasn't scummy. And no one thought it was scummy. And I DID put in effort, that's what you're forgetting. And you're completely misinterpreting that post. When I say I was hoping it'd take more effort, I mean
A. Dammit this day is going to be completely hijacked by this scum, trying to analyse other people's interactions will be difficult, and
B. Wow this isn't even a challenge, there's our scum. That's boring.

what does tgs have to do with our discussion on oil?

Oh I got mixed up with pronouns; I thought you were saying TGS looked scummier today than yesterday since you quoted me talking about TGS.
DS, you're making the fatal error of thinking what you see should be obvious to everyone and that Oilura's D2 actions are

inherently and objectively

scummy, therefore because I don't agree with you, I must be scum as well. That's not how this works. If you read my thought process, you'll see how my mind's been changed.

You'll note that we all made the same mistake thinking mastin was scum for defending Astinus's actions, when they both turned out to be town. This isn't a 'with us or against us' when it comes to Oilura. Never tunnel someone to such an extent that anyone who isn't doing it as well is also scum. You'll get a few too many scumreads that way.

Edit: Gimme a sec, guille.

[Teen Girl Squad]

I'm still not convinced of scum-Oilura, I could understand having your reads shaken up after a night phase and not really knowing where to go from there. Lord knows this setup has me confused, too.

dragonspawn's case on Mathdino is... odd. I gotta agree that it seems to be based pretty heavily on confirmation bias, and Math's voting patterns don't strike me as scummy. The fact that dragon's going after someone that, as far as I can tell, is being pretty widely town-read is what's so odd to me. I can't see why scum would bother, so I'm to wonder more and more if maybe dragon's just wrong-town? Then again, he's also voting for Oilura who currently is the biggest wagon, and I still stand by my previous thoughts on him, too.

I still am not into Nova's first response to me, or his Oilura vote. He's still mostly null to me, but I think depending on the lynch and flip today we should take a closer look at him later.

Still okay with my 2birds vote for the time being. Would like to second the "how do you feel about riabi/guille now" question.

[Teen Girl Squad]

@Oilura, guille has a decent amount of content now, it's kind of a stretch to call him a lurker at this point. How do you feel about it?

@Riabi, You say you think Clusk is scummy because his few posts don't have any real content, but why do you find NJAC less scummy? He's got just as few posts with just as little content in them.

[Mathdino]

lol guille and Riabi, you're confbiasing each other. This is TvT, guys.

Post 223 pinged me the whole wrong way.

His focus was entirely on Oilura's Hammer mimicking some of the complaints that have already been set forth. The problem is that Oilura's hammer wasn't what was scummy, but rather Oiluras attempt to defend it. The hammer was simply bad play, which could have come from town or scum either way. Then was his reads. In a game with 4 scums he places two as scummy, 4 as town and the rest as null. I was surprised with TGS being town, and way more surprised with Clusk as town since Clusk has done nothing noteworthy on day 1.

You're running into the same issue DS is. Riabi's read on Oilura is based on a fairly outdated scumtell that doesn't apply in any way to a lot of new users, a lot of emotional users, and a lot of drunk users. But it's still a townish way to interpret it. See, guille, you are actually criticising Riabi for picking the

wrong thing

to criticise about Oilura. How is ignoring the apparent overdefenciveness further a scum motivation?

Also, does it seem sensible to you, as a scum player, to put your partner at the top of your small townlist rather than just switch her with someone from a sea of nulls? Scumpartners just aren't that obvious, I'm sorry.
And no, this isn't "too scummy to be scum", it's going off the fact that most of the time, scum don't buddy each other like that. They're more inconsistent and more likely to nullread and distance. Kind of like what DS and TGS did, actually (switching between seemingly accidental buddying and distancing).

Also, thoughts on guille's behaviour between your last 2 posts?

I think he still leans scum. If you look at what he's really posting, he's made several posts, but only two of them are, IMO really substantive. In 294 he makes a good point about Nova, and in 296 where he makes a case (albeit weak, IMO) against me. Other than that, he seems to be posting fluff. I suspect it might be an effort to look townish.

Uh, yeah, so, first of all Nova did the same thing, and second of all making substantive posts should not be

furthering

your scumread, and third of all, he hasn't been fluffposting at all. You seem to be confbiasing most of what he does as scummy.

After I pointed out that he had 2 scum in a 4 scum game, his following list contains 4 scum. I would normally see scum more complaint to questions from town.

Clusk again. He mentions that Clusk is probably scum for not contributing anything. This is a fallacy just as saying that he was town, which he did agree on. He placed Clusk below NJAC when NJAC had the same or even less contribution than Clusk. If he were judging base on contribution, I wouldn't be so low there.

These are not damning, because 1 is very weak and 2 and 3 could easily come from a town player. That doesn't mean that I can lift my suspicions. I need better interactions from Riabi during the following days to get a better feel from him.

I can't really control what you see in his meta, but okay.

I would normally see new town as extremely compliant with things pointed out to them. Changing your reads to fit evidence that's been put in your face is pretty null.

Fallacious reasoning is not scummy. Also, NJAC IIRC provided reasons for his lack of activity, while Clusk just lurked. This isn't an inconsistency.

Here's why I think Riabi's town: First of all, his read on Nova was fairly well formulated and it very much indicates someone that's trying to figure out the game and figure out who these people are. His read on you was bad, but it was nuanced, and that's what's important. And honestly, it looks more like slight towntunneling than it does scum. His reads on TGS, while I think they're incorrect, are the opposite of trying to please town, which is what you seem to be scumreading Riabi for. He's going against the grain here when he could easily concede that TGS is acting scummy, but his main targets are acting scummier. And his thoughts in 249 on DS was also seeing both sides of the situation; he scumreads DS, provides examples, while conceding that there were parts that weren't completely bad.

Edit: TGS y u ninja me

[Teen Girl Squad]

Oh guille just asked the same thing. durr. oh well.

[Mathdino]

dragonspawn's case on Mathdino is... odd. I gotta agree that it seems to be based pretty heavily on confirmation bias, and Math's voting patterns don't strike me as scummy. The fact that dragon's going after someone that, as far as I can tell, is being pretty widely town-read is what's so odd to me. I can't see why scum would bother, so I'm to wonder more and more if maybe dragon's just wrong-town? Then again, he's also voting for Oilura who currently is the biggest wagon, and I still stand by my previous thoughts on him, too.

I still am not into Nova's first response to me, or his Oilura vote. He's still mostly null to me, but I think depending on the lynch and flip today we should take a closer look at him later.

Notice what he calls out in my behaviour as scummy: backpedaling and changing my mind. These behaviours appear to be scumtells for him in general.

Now notice also: He called my playstyle scummy D1, and opened D2 with NKA that subtly indicates that I killed Fink, and follows up with a page long argument with me. Dontcha think that backing down now is something he'd see as scummy, and thus would want to avoid?

He refused to explain his read on me until he was pressured to do so, and even then, he's not really pushing my lynch; he's pushing the much easier Oilura wagon. And every time I show him my thought process and how it explains my behaviour, he comes up with a new way to twist what I do as scummy. But he's still not pushing my lynch or asking people questions about me. He's just being consistent with his earlier mudslinging.

[Teen Girl Squad]

That's... a lot of really good points.

UNVOTE: 2birds1stone
VOTE: dragonspawn

[Riabi]

@Riabi, You say you think Clusk is scummy because his few posts don't have any real content, but why do you find NJAC less scummy? He's got just as few posts with just as little content in them.

I never said he was less scummy. I said I can't tell. He may be the scummiest of all scums in this game. Or he may be part of the town. I can't tell. I have no idea. The difference between him and Clusk, is that the few posts that Clusk has made have made me think he's trying to post content when he's really not. NJAC has several posts of "yeah, sorry, I'll post soon." Which to me, are completely null.

After I pointed out that he had 2 scum in a 4 scum game, his following list contains 4 scum. I would normally see scum more complaint to questions from town.

And in between there, dragonspawn continued to act more and more scummy, and I looked at Clusk deeper. Is it really so strange that reads change over the course of a game?

lol guille and Riabi, you're confbiasing each other. This is TvT, guys.

TvT... is that town vs. town? Sorry for my ignorance.

You seem to be confbiasing most of what he does as scummy.

Hmmm, I've been known to do that in the past. I don't have time right now, and might not have time for a couple days, but I'll take a good long look at him again soon, and I'll try to do so with as little bias as possible.

[Mathdino]

TvT is town vs town, yes. And you two are pretty much at the top of my townreads at the moment, which is why your argument is kind of frustrating me, haha.

On a sidenote, I find it funny how DS can't seem to come up with scumreads apart from me and Oilura. I think it's possible he has or does legitimately believe I'm scum with him, but if that's changed, like I said, he can't exactly back down at this point, thus the terrible cases.

[guille2015]

I thought this TvT was a crying chicken, but town versus Town makes better sense.

Anyways I concede with the possibility that Riabi can be town.

Unvote

Anyways, what is the order of business. I have no read on NJAC or CLUSK. And think that all that this day is missing is for them to get some input here.

[Mathdino]

I guess it's sorta useful that some people are still scumreading Oilura for his lack of reads if it motivates him to get into the game. Those of you who think he's town, would recommend strongarming.

And yeah, just waiting on NJAC to catch up and Clusk to get replaced. DS or Oilura looks like today's lynch, but we do need 3rd opinions.

[Mathdino]

EBWOP: Those of you who think he's scum

[Voidedmafia]

Ima just

[Voidedmafia]

Bump dis here thread