In post 1021, mastin2 wrote:I'm going to be skipping most of the stuff temporarily. I swear I'll answer it all eventually, it's just that there's a few things running through my mind that I want to write down before I re-forget them and they are relevant to some of the things you've been saying.
it's fine. i'm glad you're posting.
In post 1021, mastin2 wrote:To be honest, the main reason I voted Firebringer is because Firebringer gave away not being a mason and also not knowing the masons, and I took from context of people like you that the scum didn't know who the masons were, thus, Firebringer fit the profile of a scum player.
yeah, that was a lot of why i voted him, myself. I think it may have been a mistake on my part approaching the game so much from a who seems to know what standpoint, but it made sense at the time.
mastina wrote:I said before that a daystart PM would've been nice. I received no notification on any day phase that the day phase had begun. I tried to cover this up, though, because I knew this was a not-mason slip: masons would have their topic closed, disallowing them from conversing and serving as a reminder day had started.
interesting. I don't think I would have picked up on that; too subtle for me. I rely more on my egosearch and my bookmarks than anything so I usually notice a thread is open before I notice that I've got a daystart PM. But yeah, since we only had nighttalk, we were pretty aware of how much time we had left to talk about things, and the mod did post to say that the thread was being locked or unlocked.
mastina wrote:I was hoping. Praying. That there'd be a battle of mason claims, because then there'd be an easy job for me: pick the real mason. It wouldn't be hard to find. But I knew that was incredibly unlikely.
you thought it was shaddowez though. but i could have pointed to plenty of stuff like how none of us ever voted each other not even in rvs and how whenever wanderer made a towncase for one lacklustre buddy she made a towncase for the other at the same time. wanderer was good at matching the strength of her reads on us to the temperature of the thread, but she always had us together. and there was always duppin resisting the rainbow train whenever we got wagonned and me doing the same in reverse, both of us just not feeling each other's trains even when we agreed the other looked scummy. i could have pointed to that, too. maybe it would have been enough.
mastina wrote:or if you had managed to pull some sort of master scum game where you deliberately nightkilled weird nightkill choices for some sort of reason
Fucking up my night kill is my thing, though:
- Inexplicably leaving BBT alive in LYLO when he would have caught me if he hadn't been overgamed
- Not realising that I only had a one shot kill so spending it on night1 instead of saving it for LYLO (but I managed to successfully crosskill using really convoluted logic that I'm kinda proud of and I was crosskilled that night anyway so it didn't matter that i'd wasted my only kill.)
- The time i took my two top townreads who were townreading each other into lylo and pretended to be mislynch bait and then they lynched me.
- The time we didn't nightkill Tammy night 1 because she always gets nightkilled early and we felt sorry for her, and then we nightkilled a newb we could have mislynched because i fucked up, and then N3 our nightkill was blocked, and by then Tammy had tracked us all to dead bodies so we lost.
I should make my own checklist.
Does the nightkill make any sense at all?
Yes --> Plot's town
Only in light of the nightkill's flip --> Plot's probably scum but proceed anyway
No --> Proceed
mastina wrote:but regardless of which it was, the simple fact is, I fully expected the outcome to be two masons, in their topic, both saying that they suspect me, and that regardless of which of them died, that they would be voting me come daybreak.
well, sort of. but there's thing where you re-examine your reads if you're still alive in 3p lylo. and, again, we weren't expecting rainbow to be the last mason alive.
mastina wrote:Brief glimpses and flashes into your posting give me hope, that maybe, just maybe, you're actually going to vote for shaddowez, but then you continue on with your posting and dash my hopes by immediately pointing out the opposite only stronger suspicion you hold on me.
I'm sorry.
I know what that's like. I'm not trying to do to you what you did to me. You're wrong about the direction we're leaning, though.
mastina wrote:whereas with Shaddow it's good play for the entirety of the game,
his predecessor is worse than yours.
mastina wrote:Even if you're more subjective than Titus (I don't have enough experience with you to know), you're still pretty objective and hold her the ultimate logical player in high regards.
I respect her and look up to her, and I'm probably one of the few people who say "I'm not Titus but" and mean it as a compliment to Titus, but I don't think she's perfect or have her on the pedestal I had her on when I was a newbie with 1 completed game who had read Uncouth.
I respect her endgame and I'm looking forward to hydraing with her sometime in the next couple months. I know that there are things she's good at and things she's not good at. In Refraction, she fakeclaimed doc with a wagon on her and I counterclaimed her (I was a bodyguard, but I didn't full claim, just said that our roles couldn't co-exist and that I was CCing) and she was lynched. She was a VT.
There are a lot of players I look up to. I look up to you too, you know. I don't think you're perfect, and I don't think anybody is, but I like you and like playing with you.
I suppose my playstyle must seem cold and objective from the outside looking in because of all the numbers and symbols and maths and patterns, but that's not how I experience it internally, it's just the only way I know how to translate what I'm thinking, and the numbers and patterns are a shorthand for myself to help me ground myself in the game and find my footing and figure out whether someone's trajectory makes sense given the game state.
It's also a way to slow me down because with the hyperlexia I tend towards skimming and if I don't make myself stop and read every sentence and figure out what that sentence means and what it's doing to the game state and how it's trying to pull the game in one direction or another, then I read it too quickly and I don't notice. The numbers thing is my way of slowing myself down so that I can notice what people are trying to do.
I spent 16 hours reading your ISO in WDPT during night 6. You were my top scumread and I came out of it with you (well, Voided, really) as my top townread because I'd slowed down enough to see the game from your eyes, managed to get into your head and see all the trying to figure things out and all the trying to work together with townreads and I can't explain what it was like or really point to anything but that mass of numbers and say "town" but it's not not town because there were this many + and that many - or anything overly simplistic like that.
The numbers thing is my way of putting myself in somebody else's shoes, something that is a lot harder for me than for most people, trying to empathise and understand how they're seeing the game and where they're coming from and why they're doing the things they're doing.
But how I really experience the game, and what I'm doing when I reread a game thread and post a bunch of walls that look like IIoA... and boy am I glad that I'm conftown right now because nobody ever townreads me for talking about how I actually experience the game because it sounds like cryptic gibberish, but here goes.
The game is like a tangled mass of coloured threads, and everybody has their own colour thread which is often based on their avatar colour but sometimes not and if I can't figure out why somebody has the colour they do then that's a sign I need to pay more attention to their slot because in Refraction, Shinobi and Chthulu Dreaming were the same colour even though one of them had a green avatar and the other had a purple avatar. They were both scum.
On day 1, the colours don't really mean much, a green thread doesn't mean town and a red thread doesn't mean scum, it's just completely arbitrary. And there's this tangled mass of threads that are all pulling the game in different directions. The town threads are more chaotic and they start out each pulling things in sort of random directions and the scum threads are more deliberate in which way they're pulling the tangle BUT on day 1 they blend in fairly well and it's usually hard to sort them (unless something in my repertoire of scumtells shows up but that's secondary and the only tells I'm really confident in are the ones I use for sorting newbies especially if they're new to mafia in general not just to the site).
But when it's LYLO or almost LYLO and I'm looking back on a game, it's different. I know the alignment of 11 players in this game and now it is a mass of green threads pulling the game in various directions and two red threads ... well in this game mostly lurking until they get lynched .... but two red threads either letting the game be pulled in that direction or gently pulling it in different directions. And then there's your yellow thread and shaddowez' grey thread and I'm looking at how those threads are weaving themselves into the tapestry of the game, are they winding themselves around other threads and tying little knots or what.
It's not an objective thing. It's...going back to string and yarn, I do crochet with thread and it gets tangled sometimes and I put all ten fingers in the thread and I jiggle my fingers and make motions like a little kid fingerpainting and it looks chaotic, but it does part of the untangling work. And then for parts of it I have to slow way down and pick at the knots little by little. And sometimes I have to pull just one part of the thread. That's how town affects the game.
And if I were trying to tangle it on purpose, I'd probably do that finger jiggling thing but I'd do it differently, instead of shaking hands one way I'd swirl them some, and then sometimes I'd pull a different part of the thread, a part that makes the knots tighter instead of pulling out a slip knot. And then sometimes I'd have to slow way down and think about what would make it harder to untie and do that. That's how scum affects the game.
I don't even think in language, it's all swirling colour shapes and three dimensional patterns and I try to translate it into the thread to show other people what I'm thinking but nobody ever townreads me for talking like this so I've learned not to talk like this because it sounds crazy and people discredit me when I do it and babbling incoherently about colourshapes isn't a good way to get people to lynch the people I think are scum because it's incoherent. I talk in objectives because objectives make sense to people. But I'm conftown and I'm not trying to persuade either of you to do anything but continue to engage with me so I can do what I want.
In post 1022, mastin2 wrote: Btw, we both know this, but kinda hard to use this point against me when I wasn't in the game until D4.
Of course. It wasn't a point against you.
When was I suddenly pressured? I never felt pressure.
I mean, I suppose you could technically call my situation now in lylo being pressured, but my response isn't to brush it off--it's been more along the lines of resignation.
I think the biggest problem with the checklist is that I don't understand how you define all of the terms in the checklist. You saw that in WDPT, too. But I'm aware of that and am taking it into account. Basically for this question, I hadn't pressured you in a sudden "is mastina scum" way; I took the "townread her too early" approach instead (I was genuine about not wanting to pursue you right then, but I wasn't as confident in you being town as I was letting on; it was partially a test.) What I was counting as pressure for this question was when I pointed out Jeanne11's trust tell thing and you brushed me off because I was disagreeing with you and that's pressure of a sort. BUT I wasn't counting this question against you, I had it under "doesn't really apply to this game".
Mastina, on whether she's posting up a storm or not wrote:This one's my fault, though, because I was afraid of posting too much and revealing my hand.
And now it's LYLO and you've been V/LA and you've been posting up a storm
when you've been here
but you haven't been here
all that much
BUT V/LA is null and shaddowez and Bella are also V/LA. The V/LAs from both your slots are irritating because it makes it harder to sort you both but it's not scummy.
mastina, about gloating about scumgame wrote:Not that having an extra point in my favor isn't a good thing, but...where have I gloated about how good my scumgame was? I don't actually recall doing this. I've said as scum I wouldn't be incompetent enough to have missed duppin, I suppose, but that's not nearly the level of bragging I normally do about my scumgame.
Well, I mostly did it for you but you agreed with it. There's also when you said that whoever the last scum is, they're playing a very good game, which I could see you saying cheekily about yourself if you were scum.
And you've been talking about how if you were scum you wouldn't be in the situation you're in? I guess?
mastina on delusions of grandeur wrote:Technically speaking, my thinking the game was over with Firebringer was a delusion of grandeur, and that's kinda sorta supported by me posting things like it being a game of POE, that Firebringer makes the most sense as final scum, and whatnot, but I suppose there's not really enough to prove this.
see, I don't really know what delusions of grandeur means when you say it, but like I too also thought it was mostly POE by then, so it didn't feel like a delusion since I was sharing it. And I remember in WDPT when you had the plan that we just trust each other and no lynch and it would have worked and I didn't even understand why it would have worked until a while after the game was over.
I think my trouble with questions like this is that I tend to see you as deluded, because often I feel like we're kind of on the same wavelength and even if I'm not really ready to trust you fully because I know you're capable of fooling me, I don't see you as deluded or someone to be dismissed. I see that you have an opinion that could be wrong or right, and the rightness or wrongness doesn't really matter in terms of alignment because town are wrong about shit all that time (see: me ITT about everything for all of August and most of September) and scum can be 100% right if they choose to be. I think I get more out of questions like this by observing whether other people think you're being deluded or not, if that makes sense.
Like, imagine that Titus had a checklist of her own in WDPT and if in the middle of Titus vs The Masons I decided to go down the checklist, and newbPlot at the time was basically thinking "why is everyone being mean to Titus?" so newbPlot would have had this same kind of trouble, you know? Or same thing with Titus vs Drixx. I didn't really understand that TvT could be a thing at the time (I was very, very new) so I thought that there had to be a right side and a wrong side, a winning side and a losing side. I have since "won" some TvTs and learned that there were not winners, just survivors.
Mastina about waffling wrote:In this case, let's be fair. Early-on, I didn't want to play my hand and reveal I wasn't a mason by showing all my doubts. (There were a ton!) Later-on, as far as I knew, there wasn't anything TO waffle on: Lalendra was the only possible scum at that point in my eyes.
I know. I'm taking the gamestate into account with these questions. I haven't counted up how many proceeds I got and how many probTowns I got and done some maths equations with them. I'm thinking about each question individually.
Mastina about legacy leaving wrote:Extension of the above: with only one scum left, and two possible candidates, I was very explicitly expecting the game to be over. No need for a legacy if the game ends with a Firebringer lynch. Failing that, Lalendra.
yeah. I also just...don't think every game needs to be a legacy?
I'm thinking about this post from molla a lot lately
In post 170, BBmolla wrote:Just seems like new town. He's just a boy. Still has that "Oh we're playing mafia! How exciting!" spark to him. He hasn't hit the "fuck im just gonna post like once a day saying fuck you cause i hate everyone" stage yet.
probably because I did hit the "fuck im just gonna post like once a day saying fuck you cause i hate everyone" stage in August sometime. Well, not "fuck you" but "fuck everything" and "fuck me" and I felt like crossposting "ugggggh this fucking game" to most of my games but it wasn't really my games it was me, you know?
I've had some really great town games that I was really proud of and other towngames that I hope get eaten by tigers, you know? I just expect that's a thing that happens to everybody. So even though the checklist says not trying to leave a legacy is more scumMastina than townMastina, I don't think it's damning by itself, especially given the game state. If this happens to be a "maybe this game will get eaten by tigers and then we can stop playing" game for you my only response is "ugh, you and me both, sister."
That's how I feel.
You seem to either be approaching the checklist as if instead of "Proceed" it said "Mastina is obvscum" or expecting me to do so.
Mastina about crumbing wrote:I did try to false-crumb though! I tried faking being a mason.
I was interpretting this one more as "not applicable". I don't think it's a scumtell that you didn't obvcrumb VT. I didn't notice you were crumbing mason, heh, and I probably would have jumped on you if I thought that's what you were doing, but I did notice that your posting wasn't HEY GUYS LOOK AT ME I'M A VT YOU SHOULD NK SOMEBODY ELSE posting and I appreciated that! If that's what you mean by falsecrumbing then I think you hit the sweet spot pretty well with it.
Mastina about random illogical theories wrote:Well, technically speaking, my push on Shaddow contained a lot of points that were a stretch? Butyeah. This and the other one are also a result of the setup and gamestate meaning...there wasn't much room for error. (Or so I thought.)
I guess. I think this is another one of those points where I have trouble because I don't think we define either random or illogical the same way. I think there are too many similarities in the way our brains work. You have an "illogical" theory and my reaction is more likely to be "yeah I can see how that could be true" so it doesn't seem illogical to me. If there were more players alive I could maybe get something out of whether they're calling your theories illogical?
Mastina about flat tone wrote:Huh? Like...most of the things which are marks against me on here I get. Like, really really get. This one, not so much. How is my tone flat?
Offline stuff that I'm picking up on that I think is affecting your tone globally. I wasn't counting this against you and have been treating it as null because I think what I'm picking up on isn't anything to do with the game state or your alignment in it. You seem pretty exhausted and stuff. I don't think it's a scumtell.
Mastina about minimal resistance to lynching her wrote:I'd say there was fairly minimal resistance. I was the secondary wagon to Lalendra. Don't remember the Firebringer lynch day, but there was at least interest then, too. The main resistance was simply better candidates for lynching.
Well I was thinking more about today when there's the two of you crossvoting and me holding the hammer and thinking that it doesn't really apply either way, and also thinking that Aristoika has been dead since you subbed in so you don't have any buddies to resist your lynch, which is partially what I thought this question was about.
Mastina wrote:...Yet here, I haven't had that. I fully realize that in your limited experience of me, you'd probably expect similar play from me here if I were town. But the difference is...in this game...I kinda...have that "given up" mindset.
and this is also partially what I meant by flat tone. But, like, town apathy is a thing. I'm not the newbie that I was in WDPT where I thought Titus was scum because she had town apathy and town would be Excited To Be Playing Mafia Yay Whee Fun.
You're right that I've been thinking quite a bit about that other LYLO because it's the only LYLO we've been in together but there are a lot of differences between these two LYLOs. In that one, I had to prove that I was town while doing my reread whereas in this one I didn't have to also convince you that I was town I just had to figure out which of you two were scum. In that one, bbmolla was buddying me and pushing me in one direction, in this one, I finished my catchup before either of you got off v/la and because I already had hammer vote when I started, it doesn't really compare because you both know or have to pretend to know that the other is 100% scum, whichever of you is town has a role pm related reason to know the other is lying and is not town. So it's more like not_maf vs me with you holding the hammer than anything.
I know that this lylo isn't that one. I know that this game isn't that one. This game is a lot shorter, for one thing, which isn't that great because my playstyle really shines past page 200 as a late game replacement. In games of this size I'm more average and I can have trouble getting my footing in a game. But I'm starting to get better; sometimes I spectate games and there was a recent one where I had an opinion when they were on page 4 or something and I never changed that opinion in the entire time I was spectating and I was right! So there is hope that someday I won't just be a late game player.
But I still do struggle a lot before a game is large enough for the patterns that I recognise best to be entrenched.
Trust me to be fair in my judgement, Mastina. I'm holding the hammer, but I'm not stonewalling you and Bella and I pretty much agree with the way we're leaning, we just need a little more time.
--P
pedit (not because I got ninjaed but because I hit preview and read my post and how long it is) I am sorry shaddowez you are stuck in an endgame with mastin2 and mastin3.
