Mini Normal 2157 | Over

[Alduskkel]

VOTE: GeorgeBailey
GeorgeBailey.

[Alduskkel]

datisi listens to trash

[Alduskkel]

source: datisi

[Alduskkel]

~

[Alduskkel]

[Alduskkel]

It wasn't literal. It's page 1. You are awful tightly wound though.

Ironically I think NPOW is the one acting tightly wound.

Example:

Wow the two votes on me have a whole 9 words of "reasoning".

VOTE: NoPowerOverMe

i think GB is town, how about you?

ok i'll just leave my vote on you till you come to your senses then

Do you know something about GB that I don't or is this just a guess?

Ah, fair enough. I find scum always asks small pedantic questions to seem townie.

So it just pinged me as such.

this post was made from a town perspective, and isn't easily faked
it reads very authentic and i'm concluding GB is likely town with an offchance this is actually faked (but unlikely)

Could you elaborate on this?

pedit: did you not believe me when I said you were my source lol

[Alduskkel]

oh oops I thought it was okay since it didn't really reveal anything too personal

[Alduskkel]

VOTE: jankofan

datisi you had a nice vote on NPOM, why'd you change it?

(also I just realized I've been reading/writing NPOM as NPOW oops)

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Icon

NPOM seems like he's pretty inexperienced. No way scum comes out and actually goes SRS MODE in RVS. The real goof here is Icon trying to make that seem scummy.

(In fact, NPOM was a pretty easy misyeet D1 in a recent game I played. He was similarly overeager to scum hunt, and the scum team just sat back and let that be a fail. Only took slight prodding to make it an all town wagon. NPOM was town vig that game.)

...wait, hang on. You're saying that he was miseliminated by an all-town wagon, with scum just sitting back and letting it happen, in a previous game.

And you also think Iconeum is scum for scumreading him, when you've just established that town have scumread him previously.

Am I missing something here, or does that not make much sense? Why do you think Iconeum's scumread on NPOM is scum-motivated?

good post

[Alduskkel]

Iconeum tring GB seems p towny but i actually think his entrance was scummy

why's it scummy?

one two seven three

VOTE: andresvmb

is this vote serious?

[Alduskkel]

currently reading

is it just me or is ico bleeding town?

[Alduskkel]

please don't actually townread koba for that...

[Alduskkel]

guys is it normal to get a town role PM from the mod? this is my firs ttime playing a mini normal so i'm not sure...

[Alduskkel]

btw i'm planning on changing my NPOM vote I just gotta finish reading the thread first

[Alduskkel]

Also, your skepticism about me being non-committal is fair. But step into my shoes for a minute - this is literally my first game on this site. Do any of you expect me to have pinpoint reads about players that have a lot of experience playing Mafia? I’ve been around right - the guys that sound the best and can keep their cool and make solid arguments are not always Town. If anything, VPB’s style of play very much strikes me as someone that can manipulate Town quite well. If I was saying that VPB was definitive Town or Scum, then you should be more worried about my alignment.

I don't know if I buy this defense when you literally said you've played like 100 games offsite.

However, Icon then following up on me saying that by completely losing it for two pages that anyone would question their motives for voting NPOM and then pretending like attacking NPOM is some bold and risky stance is quite rich.

You think Icon faked his emotions?

Oh, yay, being wagoned again. What fun.

UNVOTE: , since I probably shouldn’t leave a stale RVS vote lying around.

Anyway, yeah, I haven’t stated any reads, but that’s more just me being my usual non-commital and cautious early game self than anything suspicious. I guess I can probably produce some now if I must.

Townleans: Testarossa, Datisi, Iconeum, Billy Pilgrim

Null: Alduskkel, DkKoba, GeorgeBailey, jankofan, NoPowerOverMe, hellbooks

Maybe suspicious?: Andresvmb, VP Baltar

(In no particular order within categories)

(Don’t hold me to any of those, they’re all pretty weak reads. But that’s what I have so far.)

This reminds me of when I'm town and don't have any strong scumreads

I see some are scumreading baltar and i can see where they are coming from. Inoc still bothers me but it could be SPP.

VOTE: VP Baltar

explain this vote. Weren't you and Baltar mindmelding earlier?

I thought I'd move my vote off NPOM but actually I'm good with it staying there for now.

[Alduskkel]

At first I thought Andres was scum but I'm starting to think he's misguided town. I think scum would have backed off pushing Icon after facing so much resistance from multiple players.

This is textbook Icon townplay. It's an emotional player who tends to get into fights. I think in this game it's clear Icon is sorting people and the idea that scum-Icon just attacks anyone that attacks it is too rooted in some theory of how scum act rather than how they (and in particular, Icon) act in practice.
---

also thinking atm that NPOM has higher scum equity if snowblaze is town actually

Talk to me about this more.
---
Maybe I'm just projecting, but Snowblaze's play reminds me a lot of when I'm town and having trouble getting scumreads. I just don't see this slot as scum.

VOTE: Testarossa. I took up Koba's offer to iso Testa and there's a lot of hedging language in there. Try doing a find-in-page highlight of the word "but" and you'll see it's all over the place.

I want to give this wagon some momentum and see where it goes.

[Alduskkel]

how come this game always spawns like 10 pages while I'm sleeping?

[Alduskkel]

I think testa/NPOM/janko has 2 scum in it

[Alduskkel]

I took up Koba's offer to iso Testa and there's a lot of hedging language in there. Try doing a find-in-page highlight of the word "but" and you'll see it's all over the place.

Tryng a language/wording read on someone who isn't native English speaker is a double-edged sword though. Why do you think it indicates scum in my case?

I didn't know you were a non-native English speaker. Still, my point is you'll make a statement and then backtrack on it as though you don't want to take a hard stance on anything. This includes a lot of your recent posting too.

deadass thinking all of testa/ico/npom are town now.

How'd you reach the testa = town conclusion? Just based on jankofan's behavior?

Koba and Aldsukkel are probably the worst of the testarossa votes, imo.

What makes them so bad?

[Alduskkel]

it makes no sense that testa was NPOM's #2 scumread, and NPOM was the second to last vote on the wagon, but now suddenly NPOM is squicked by the wagon and no longer wants to vote testa.

[Alduskkel]

4.2069

[Alduskkel]

I think you're letting NPOM off a little easy.

[Alduskkel]

What specifically do you want my input on?

[Alduskkel]

i'm not doing associates yet, i just think those players are scummy

[Alduskkel]

those 3 can't be the exact scumteam because then the game would be way too easy lol

[Alduskkel]

Isn't Iconeum always V/LA during weekends? I don't think it should have been prodded.

[Alduskkel]

hi i haven't read the last 17 pages

[Alduskkel]

has he claimed?

[Alduskkel]

oh wait i meant has janko claimed

[Alduskkel]

i'm trying to catch up, that's why i didn't say anything

i've already said i'm scumreading both janko and NPOW though, so i'm not sure why i'd vote for the smaller wagon?

[Alduskkel]

ive been drinking again and

ill hammer janko if he's at E-1 lol bc ya i see he's been pocketing me and his flip gives info regardless but like fuck bob/snow has been so obvious it hurts.

koba was talking about potentially switching to janko way before that though

[Alduskkel]

the posts i've been reading while catching up have not made me feel any better about NPOW

[Alduskkel]

Using the word "but".

Got it.

Vote snow 2020

Strawmanning 101

bob's entrance is Bad but I'm not seeing it as Scummy.

lot of pointless arguing on pages 49-53

bob's posts on page 54 feel very reachy though

ico's case on janko, gif'ified

Spoiler:

i'm done taking a backseat in this game boys and girls
ya'll can either push me because *reasons*, townread me and help me push this scum, or sort me based on whatever you want

janko opens with a scumread on me while only having read the last couple pages of the game, on which i haven't posted on several of those



when asked to explain that scumread, janko resorts to 'but i actually read the entire game'
This translates to Iconeum catching scum faking a read, which looks very similar to:



datisi begins to push back on Janko's scumread, saying the reasons are NAI at best. But that doesn't suit our friend janko, so it explains in a LOT of words, not very much:

janko, do you think getting annoyed at people pushing you is scum!indicative?

talk to me friend

hey there! umm its context dependant and playstyle dependant. on the whole no, both alignments probably tend to get annoyed at being pushed. Although town might be annoyed i feel like they have a strong focus in and around scumhunting and that should be visible despite their frustration. Whereas, scum can just get a bit tunnel visioned defending themselves and having a lack of general awareness about the game and other slots since they naturally have to manually direct energy toward scum hunting since they feel defending themselves and tunnel visioning on their own pressure are more vital prospects. Whereas town are naturally inclined to scum hunt and task themselves with figuring out whether those pushing them are scum. I feel like scum would focus more on the pressure/push arguments (like what i think icon is doing) whereas town would also be visibly focusing on the persons pushing them and who is scum in general.

which basicly translates to: yes ur right datisi it's not AI except for now when it is

vp was reacting to stuff similar to how i would in their catch up post, and I'm seeing sincere motivation and perception behind andres' posting

npom could be scum. "missing" snows claim and asking her what it was instead of just scrolling back and finding it is giving me scum pings. seems to be "active lurking".

anyway i'm sheeping koba's list and would vote to hang in {testa, ico, npom}

it is simply NOT POSSIBLE to scumread both me AND npow at this stage. You just spent a lot of effort in showing why my push on npow is scum!motivated, which left no room for you to be able to read it as a S vs S interaction. Yet 2 of your 3 scumreads are exactly that.

I'm townreading you because i feel like you're pushing me and it feels like you really want to be right about your take on me and that motivation and the tone that comes with it are obviously town

absolutely not a legit take when your number 1 scumread is your townread's (top?) townread, if you know what i mean

I think the reason I'm tring snow is that she seems like she'a actually introspecting and also that she seems focused on things that people who are solving tend to be focused on

you keep scumreading me despite you townread datisi who is YELLING at you that i'm town, and I've been hard townreading snow TOGETHER with you but i'm still scum with no room for re-evaluation?



and then we have the great switch

bob pushing me if scum is an attempt to pocket datisi. thinks my townread on snow was a white knight attempt which only works if you're scum reading me independently since its ascribing scum motivation to otherwise normal actions.

snow's exit/Bob's entrance were also scummy

this is E-1 (deja vu)

VOTE: bob

weren't you just townreading this slot? i'm very curious what exactly was so scummy about both the rep out AND the rep in

there is only one (1) conclusion



VOTE: janko

this. i like this.

[Alduskkel]

are you asking me to vote janko or vote NPOW?

[Alduskkel]

if janko flips scum then andres is probscum

[Alduskkel]

VOTE: jankofan
========[]

[Alduskkel]

mwahahaha i wield the powa

[Alduskkel]

if janko flips town i wont forgive u

i'll forgive myself

[Alduskkel]

glad i could get my thots in right b4 the hammer tho

literally what i was waiting for before i hammered

[Alduskkel]

I'm visiting family so my posting will be restricted to evenings for a few days.

Anyway, catching up rn.

[Alduskkel]

oh hey are we gonna have a free scum catch?

[Alduskkel]

yeah datisi how could you pass up the opportunity to meme it up with me in a hood?

[Alduskkel]

i'm torn between the urge to keep talking with datisi and the urge to tell datisi to go to bed

[Alduskkel]

also yes the silence from baltar looks incredibly scummy rn.

[Alduskkel]

exclusive imagery of baltar right now!

[Alduskkel]

huh????

[Alduskkel]

oh fuuuuuuck this turned into a trainwreck really fast

[Alduskkel]

shhhh it's ok bb (it's not really ok)

[Alduskkel]

wait koba i thought you scumread testarossa?

[Alduskkel]

what posts from testarossa do you trust?

[Alduskkel]

yeah, I thought I'd been clear about that.

[Alduskkel]

hrmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm my brain!

this is the current Mood of the game

[Alduskkel]

what posts from testarossa do you trust?

please answer koba

[Alduskkel]

that would be the merciful thing to do but probably not in our best interest

[Alduskkel]

NPOW did you even see the claim?

[Alduskkel]

VPB's claim I mean

pedit: yeah I was thinking that post read really weird

[Alduskkel]

@NPOM: okay, that much is right. so why do you disbelieve VPB's claim?

@DKK: maybe he rolled Traitor lmao

[Alduskkel]

you said two people visited VPB which isn't what's been claimed

[Alduskkel]

brain empty no answer tonight. i only deal in vibes and testa's recent posts give me good vibes and that is all u will get for now. in case u havent noticed i play emotionally and by tone, which actually is a very weak reading style over forums which i feel may be why i have struggled immensely, whereas chat mafia i can still use that to my advantage ya dig.

but i do have good vibes abt testa so they are probably flipping scum so kms ? lol
refer to my previous vote where i think scum is likely located within my 6 person pool though

btw this answer really didn't help me at all but i don't know how to follow up...

[Alduskkel]

oh yeah i didn't notice until now that NPOW messed up the order

[Alduskkel]

I take it you guys don’t think Iconeum could fool Datisi so badly? Can anybody comment on that?

I still think Icon is town and from what I recall from Autumnal Mafia, no, I don't think Iconeum could fool Datisi *this* hard, on top of also fooling me.

[Alduskkel]

is that a better fakeclaim than if scum!VPB had claimed something like commuter though?

[Alduskkel]

ugh. my brain.

also if bob is scum then that means that he's almost certainly been bussed by his partners?? that doesn't really make sense???

[Alduskkel]

...it makes it harder for them to win?

[Alduskkel]

i guess after how coalition went i have to admit you have a point lol

[Alduskkel]

Let's not be OMGUSy or anything.

Dude, wtf. You weren't voting for Dats. You voted for hellbooks. Wtf do you even mean?

I've found by stopping trying to make logical sense of anything he says and only focus on PoE with NPOM, my quality of life has significantly improved.

Yeah, the more I try to figure out how NPOM's play makes any sense as any alignment the more I confuse myself.

But, if you look at NPOM's wagon history + the PoE + maybe NPOM is shading Dats/VPB because he doesn't want either of them confirmed, then I think "NPOM scum, Bob town" makes sense.

VOTE: NoPowerOverMe

[Alduskkel]

I kinda forgot a lot of chain of command but I'll review that game tonight and get back to you. For now I have to go hang out with family.

[Alduskkel]

why would i have panicked when koba asked to give them the hammer?

[Alduskkel]

why would i have panicked when koba asked to give them the hammer?

like do you think I'm scum with Bob, Koba? that's the only scenario I can think of where I'd even conceivably be panicking.

and either way, I did the hammer because I trust myself more than I trust Koba and also because I knew it'd be funny to mess with Koba like that.

[Alduskkel]

ok this post is mostly directed at datisi wrt my meta read on icon

first off, I don't think icon's play here resembles its scumplay in Autumnal. in that game it was admittedly a bit of a deepwolf but it got caught in the PoE and kinda ran out of people to falsely scumread. it also super buddied alimdia, for example in this post:

alimdia, this town will need you to come together. Don't let a bad start discourage you from working to solve this.

You are not alone.

There are lots of other instances of it pocketing alimdia, I just picked an obvious one.

I think the difference in this game is that despite the narrative that Icon might be pocketing Datisi, there's nothing near the level that I just quoted from that scum Icon game. Some friendliness is to be expected, since they play together a lot, but I think it's well balanced with Icon's (pre-Datisi-claim) paranoia of Datisi.

Another point of contention is Iconeum's townread of GB being too strong for how early in the game it was, but town!Iconeum isn't shy about presenting townreads early on.

slightly more serious, AF is a townread so far as well

Like, it's not a one-to-one correlation with how it went this game, but it's similar.

Also, in Autumnal, scum!Icon felt like it had more of an agenda, some bad-faith engagements (e.g. w/ Menalque), and more opportunistic.

So my feeling in this game is Icon isn't playing like its scum style, but more of that good-faith genuine scumhunting town style. I wasn't like, consciously comparing specific Icon posts here to past games, but I think I've teased out why my gut feelings that Icon is town here are so strong.

[Alduskkel]

*shrug* we'll see what datisi thinks

[Alduskkel]

hi

[Alduskkel]

I think it means Billy was a Mason who happened to also be a Tracker.

[Alduskkel]

I'll wait for Datisi to post to say anything but I think I know what happened.

[Alduskkel]

But Masons don't target anyone at night so there's nothing to track

[Alduskkel]

me every time I read one of NPOM's posts...

[Alduskkel]

hi I woke up at 5:45 am for some reason so I'm here now lol

I think VPB should just claim his result now, I don't see a reason to do a mass claim before that

[Alduskkel]

datisi are you claiming hellbooks is a 3rd mason?

[Alduskkel]

[Alduskkel]

umm, why am I being scumread again?

[Alduskkel]

Andres I want to know if you are suggesting there is a chance that the 3 mason claim is bs.

[Alduskkel]

a bad version of Conspiracy

[Alduskkel]

andres come back to the thread

[Alduskkel]

At first I thought Andres was scum but I'm starting to think he's misguided town. I think scum would have backed off pushing Icon after facing so much resistance from multiple players.

This is textbook Icon townplay. It's an emotional player who tends to get into fights. I think in this game it's clear Icon is sorting people and the idea that scum-Icon just attacks anyone that attacks it is too rooted in some theory of how scum act rather than how they (and in particular, Icon) act in practice.
---

also thinking atm that NPOM has higher scum equity if snowblaze is town actually

Talk to me about this more.
---
Maybe I'm just projecting, but Snowblaze's play reminds me a lot of when I'm town and having trouble getting scumreads. I just don't see this slot as scum.

VOTE: Testarossa. I took up Koba's offer to iso Testa and there's a lot of hedging language in there. Try doing a find-in-page highlight of the word "but" and you'll see it's all over the place.

I want to give this wagon some momentum and see where it goes.

I never realy liked this vote of ald's. He never really does anything to defuse the snow wagon. Combined with no real strong reason of his for his vote on teste.

If i was scum and faced with a snow town wagon. Unless already comitted i would try and create a counter wagon. Either i get the counter wagon through and let town eat it self the next day. or i get some town cred for being against teh lynch of the flipped townie. as a wagon with no counter wagon forming is a sign of that player being town.


I don't like the use of him saying “I'm town and having trouble getting scumreads”. Felt two fold, first like a potential scum slip and second a scum player assigning their characteristics to match a player they know is town. Who could potentially get lynched.


Now the first not strong as i know i make a conscious effort as a town to avoid such wording lest it give the appearance of a false scum slip. Now the latter could be me over thinking and seeing plays I make in others.

This is the bulk of Bob's case on me, right?
1. I don't see how I could have defused the snow wagon when my read was based off of "this reminds me of my own town play" ... when I often get eliminated as town for similar reasons that SB was scumread for at the time. I didn't think I could convince people my SB townread was right by just defending her so I thought it'd be better to work towards eliminating players I thought were scum.
2. I disagree with saying my Testarossa vote had "no real strong reason." It was a tonal/language read that I stand by, and too many people voted Testa for them to all be scum so at least some townies agreed with the reasoning.
3. I mean Bob himself acknowledges this isn't very strong as a scumslip and that the latter could be overthinking. Occam's Razor is just that I'm town and saw similarities in SB's townplay to my own townplay.

[Alduskkel]

how can you be *that* certain I'm scum

[Alduskkel]

Where's your Testa TR coming from?

[Alduskkel]

Could you address 2544?

[Alduskkel]

@aldus, who are the scumfucks

Pretty sure it's 3/4 of NPOM, Koba, Andres, and Testarossa.

(pssst, don't tell Andres this, but I'm trying to figure out if he's scum rn)

[Alduskkel]

outside chance of VPB scum too I guess? but that should probably resolve itself

[Alduskkel]

@Alduskkel Bob did not have nearly as much information as we do now, which only reinforces his read. I’m not all of a sudden going to trust your explanations for what Bob was seeing when he’s no longer here to push it further. I’m at strictly {Aduskkel, NPOM} for today. That’s it.

maybe we should just agree to yeet NPOM then lmao

in all seriousness though, you haven't given a good reason why my explanations shouldn't be trusted.

[Alduskkel]

wait you think me and andres are SvS??

[Alduskkel]

spicy take

can I have what you're smoking?

[Alduskkel]

I'm having *a lot* of trouble understanding why you're scumreading me more than you are NPOM or even Koba.

[Alduskkel]

VOTE: Andresvmb

Call it OMGUS if you like but I think you're deliberately engaging me in bad faith. You keep retreating to Bob's reads and aren't actually engaging with my defense. I don't know if you're just saving NPOM for later or if he's your scumpartner but I don't buy your unwillingness to vote him either. Also, your earlier reaction to there being 3 masons felt like a perspective slip that you were upset, when town would be happy about it.

[Alduskkel]

And how am I engaging you in bad faith exactly?

It's like nothing I say gets through to you. You've decided you're going to push me and aren't interested in anything that might get in the way of that.

[Alduskkel]

Okay but your Testa TR feels overblown.

Yo, how many times do I have to explain the same thing over and over? DkKoba did a tremendous job of making me doubt my early TR of Testarossa. I’m concluding that DkKoba is Scum, so Testa is Town. Testa, via wagon analysis, concluded Bob was Town and did not want to push that. Testa has the same POE as I do... all in all, Testa is very likely Town from where I sit.

You can't say Testa is town because Koba is scum, because Koba being scum is due to your PoE which relies on Testa being town. It's circular logic. Why is Testa town for not pushing Bob but I'm not town for the same thing? How does having the same PoE as you make someone town? It might just mean your reads are where scum want them to be.

[Alduskkel]

A lot of hedging of reads, and very little actual scumhunting on Day 2 -- a lot of questions but not a lot of strong stances on who's scum.

I feel like you're trying to divert the conversation right now though. I just told you why none of your reasons for TRing Testa make sense, and you just deflected by saying you don't need to be rock solid -- even though it sounds like your read IS rock solid from the way you've been talking.

pedit: Okay so if NPOM is solidly scum then why are you refusing to consider voting him today?

Also, I'm not "boxed in." In a world where I'm scum and you're town I could have just said you were misguided and pushed some other player -- for example, either of my previously stated scumreads, NPOM and Test.

[Alduskkel]

I've already told you how I've concluded you're scum.

[Alduskkel]

Yeah but it’s bullshit. You’re saying I’m not engaging you in good faith. It’s a nonsense argument.

How is it nonsense?

Dead town players aren't necessarily correct.

[Alduskkel]

I'm not saying we should ignore it, I'm saying we shouldn't put all of our confidence into it, which is what you're doing.

[Alduskkel]

Anyway, Alduskkel is voting for me, and is strongly pushing for NPOM as a potential alternative by repeatedly suggesting it’s the slot to flip. One of Alduskkel/NPOM is almost always Scum here, it’s just a matter of getting it right.

I thought you had us as both scum. Now it sounds like you think only one of us is scum. Which is it?

Anyway I feel like I’m in tin foil hat territory. VPB is not much better than a 50/50, and the check on Hellbooks is perfectly sensible from my POV. However, I just got out of a game where a player was observed visiting a kill, and the Town made all kinds of excuses as to why that player was Town and they ended up being Scum. We should try and be absolutely certain that we’re not getting this clear wrong.

I say near certainty because VPB is not Confirmed Town, but nearly so.

Ugh you know what I’m not all that inclined to put this much effort into a game if I am going to be accused of doing Scum theater. What kind of idiot do you think I am that I put myself in the tiniest box possible here. Alduskkel is still saying that there’s an outside chance that VPB is Scum. C’mon now.

Okay so is VPB nearly conftown or just 50/50? Am I really scummy (or are you really townie?) for saying there's a chance that VPB is scum when that's literally what you're saying now?


Please tell me I'm not the only one seeing the blatant contradictions in these posts.

[Alduskkel]

Wait, please give us your perfect solve then @Aduskkel.

Nice try at deflecting.

[Alduskkel]

Okay Andres is VPB "nearly confirmed town" or about "50/50"? You can't have it both ways.

[Alduskkel]

Okay Andres is VPB "nearly confirmed town" or about "50/50"? You can't have it both ways.

I didn’t say it was a 50/50. I said it’s “no better” than a 50/50. But thanks for the misrepresentation there.

No, you said "not much better than 50/50":

VPB is not much better than a 50/50

That means it's close to 50/50. Being "not much better than 50/50" is way different from being "nearly confirmed town"!

And you still haven't answered why you said we need to "get it right" between me and NPOM if you think both of us are scum.

[Alduskkel]

Because the more you bring up that NPOM should be the TK and not you, the less confident I am that you are both the Team. Which is what’s fueling my paranoia about VPB. I get why you’re also discrediting Testarossa for example. But that’s still half of the pool outside of the PR slots + Ico.

Wow, you sure are letting supposed scum manipulate your opinions a lot.

[Alduskkel]

If it'll make Koba feel important ( ) I'm not a PR.

[Alduskkel]

I'm sorry about the timing of this, but real life stuff means that I won't be able to post much in the next 24 hours.

[Alduskkel]

hello i'm catching up at 5 am lol.

[Alduskkel]

other people's thoughts about a koba+npow+aldus team (not saying i'm currently at this)

this is kinda funny since it implies both koba and I have been bussing NPOM but it hasn't gone through because too many townies are like "nah that's elimbait"

[Alduskkel]

this is kinda funny since it implies both koba and I have been bussing NPOM but it hasn't gone through because too many townies are like "nah that's elimbait"

seeing how koba has NPOW as locktown (right?), i'm not really seeing the bussing there…

that only happened relatively recently, up until page 110 or so Koba had been pushing NPOM as scum for most of the game

[Alduskkel]

Why do you scumread me?

[Alduskkel]

why does that post read like it was meant to be posted 31 seconds after your previous one instead of 31 minutes

[Alduskkel]

Catchup post to the end of page 117

we need a scumflip

it's as simple as that

nothing will make much sense until we have that

This is why I'm hesitant to do team speculation. It's really hard without a single scumflip.

But, if you look at NPOM's wagon history + the PoE + maybe NPOM is shading Dats/VPB because he doesn't want either of them confirmed, then I think "NPOM scum, Bob town" makes sense.

VOTE: NoPowerOverMe

my god how i hate this post

Why?

andres desperately wants to prove that hes town in a way that makes me want to believe him

back to leaning aldu over the two i guess

Um, scum under pressure can also want to "desperately prove they're town" too. I'm annoyed that's all you really have to say about our argument.

I really dislike Andres's interaction with VPB on page 117. I don't want to sound like a broken record, but Andres said VPB was "nearly conftown" but is also discrediting him and casting suspicion on him too.

I know I am pedantic with that, just look at my wagon in 2875. By poe I must have been bussed by both partners. Ask yourself the mother of questions: Why?

You got townSnow at E-1, I wasn't widely townread, still was only scumread by hellbooks and janko, still good position for me, if scum. Why flushing this down the toilet? Koba derails Snowagon, starts wagon on me and pushes for it, Aldus and Andres just hop on it, knowing that janko and hell might vote there. Why pushing me into a situation where I seriously would need to claim when there was just a town miselim close with almost all town wagon? (if I would stick to site meta lol)

Can't really argue against it when you pair me up with NPOM besides poor bussing then, otherwise I am not seeing the great scum plan here. Me and Koba are never a team here.

This is honestly a good point and is making me reconsider my Testarossa scumread. It definitely makes Test/NPOM, Test/Koba, and Test/Andres teams less likely. The main caveat is the analysis depends somewhat on VPB being town. It *could* (not saying it is) be a Test/VPB team with one partner bussing.

[Alduskkel]

Page 120: Some persuasive analysis from VPB and Andres about Testarossa actually. Now I'm see-sawing back to Testarosscum a bit lol. Though, I'd be interested in knowing who they'd pick for Testa's scumpartners + their analysis of Testa's wagon.

I was gonna wait until I had more but I saw VPB post so now I want to know how he'd answer the above

[Alduskkel]

so testa/aldu/andres is not possible in your eyes?

i think what i have is a solid solve and makes sense.

...Your solve is that me and Andres are hardbussing Day 3 and we helped dogpile Testa on Day 1?

I don't see any question marks from you

ehh, there is a fine line between "chaotic town who isn't trying to explain their thought process because they don't care how they look but their logic makes sense to them" vs "scum who is plain bullshitting out of their ass" and i don't know why i have such a strong feeling that npom is in the first category rather than the second but i do

Datisi... why are you like this... you're falling for his confusion fu.

oh i see why you don't think it's aldus + npow there

remember in 2119 when mena was scum and made that post saying "i don't want micc today i want pine" (or was it the other way around? doesn't matter) and immediately i snapped like "oh god both micc and pine are town aren't they"

like that's the exact gut reaction i had when reading that post of aldus

"oh god both bob and npom are town aren't they"

but something something anecdotal evidence game difficult etc etc

I have no idea how to argue with this when it's just gut. I mean, I've given out my reasoning for both Bob!town and NPOM!scum. Is my reasoning bad or something?

The fact that you keep coming back to 2161 makes me think it's a major reason you scumread me but you yourself seem to realize that that's a really shaky foundation.

pedit: Pretty sure Ico is town.

[Alduskkel]

@datisi can u also ctrl+f "snow" and "SB"

[Alduskkel]

honestly my approach to NPOM is p much "ignore all the weird shit and just look at where his votes go"

if I actually tried to analyze his thought processes I'd go mad

pedit: how was my reasoning bad, again?

[Alduskkel]

Page 120: Some persuasive analysis from VPB and Andres about Testarossa actually. Now I'm see-sawing back to Testarosscum a bit lol. Though, I'd be interested in knowing who they'd pick for Testa's scumpartners + their analysis of Testa's wagon.

I was gonna wait until I had more but I saw VPB post so now I want to know how he'd answer the above

VPB did u miss this

[Alduskkel]

1. I don't see how I could have defused the snow wagon when my read was based off of "this reminds me of my own town play" ... when I often get eliminated as town for similar reasons that SB was scumread for at the time. I didn't think I could convince people my SB townread was right by just defending her so I thought it'd be better to work towards eliminating players I thought were scum.

@Datisi I also think this is relevant.

[Alduskkel]

@Datisi:
NPOM did a weak sheep onto the Testa wagon
NPOM wasn't on janko's wagon at the end of the day but was in support of it earlier
NPOM's hammer on Bob was trash
NPOM tried to pass off you/VPB as S/S
NPOM has, multiple times, just voted along with you or Koba because of "trusting them" but has ALSO pushed both of you as scum at one point or another.

[Alduskkel]

WHY IS IT TOWN TRASH AGH

[Alduskkel]

sometimes anti-town people... are scum

[Alduskkel]

datisi serious question. do you agree that I'm bad at convincing people my reads are correct?

[Alduskkel]

If NPOM is scum, he's genius because he can literally do anything and people be like "Oh, NPOM *lovingly disapproving look*"

Thaaaaaaat's our NPOM! *laughtrack*

@aldus, err, i guess?

well then why are you scumreading me for it

[Alduskkel]

thanks, i hate it

[Alduskkel]

@Aldus:
I figure you were still scumreading me throughout the game also on D2, yes? I take that by you asking Koba why they came (for whatever reasons) around townreading me for D2 that you had a different opinion.

Why were you never pushing for me or trying to interact with me on D2? I mean you were scumreading me on D1 and pushed for me. Yet once janko flipped town, who was the counterwagon to my wagon (together with revival of bobwagon, whom you thought to be town) there never really came much from you regarding me on D2. I think if you were genuinely scumreading me the outcome of D1 should have made you particular suspicious about me as I was even one of the earlier votes on the jankowagon.

I got sidetracked by the claim shenanigans and IRL stuff. And then I also got confused by Koba suddenly townreading you.

I know that's not a great explanation but yeah.

[Alduskkel]

I'm sad that the Andres and NPOW wagons dried up. I'm definitely willing to vote Testarossa but I'm also considering that my own elimination might be better in the long run.

[Alduskkel]

Koba, NPOM and Aldus are pushing me relatively hard, and Testa has voted me in days prior to this one. How am I ever Scum? Purely from a strategic point of view, one of those players would be defending me hard

today

. Nobody is because I need to be kept as an option for the Scum to win.

I think there's a mixture of soft/hard bussing going on. Soft from Testa and hard from NPOM

[Alduskkel]

is this scum theater?

[Alduskkel]

I'm sad that the Andres and NPOW wagons dried up. I'm definitely willing to vote Testarossa but I'm also considering that my own elimination might be better in the long run.

OMG IS THERE A CARBON MONOXIDE LEAK IN THIS GAME.

Literally everyone who is not obvtown is like giving up. Town players, you actually need to try here!

i mean both conftowns have said they think I’m the best elim and idk how to fight that

[Alduskkel]

like did everyone just ignore my points on NPOM and Andres

[Alduskkel]

aldu if u vote testa ill tr u for free

lol i'll take what I can get

VOTE: Testarossa

But the more I hear from Andres the more I think he's town.

maybe i was overestimating the strenght of this statement

I meant the more I think Aldus is town.

sooooo... you meant the exact opposite of what you said basically?

oops

lmao

[Alduskkel]

datisi can i get one of your triangles?

[Alduskkel]

i mean i was the lone vote on andres and no one is voting NPOM either...

[Alduskkel]

datisi who are you willing to vote for out of (NPOM, Andres, Testa)?

[Alduskkel]

same question to hellbooks

[Alduskkel]

datisi who are you willing to vote for out of (NPOM, Andres, Testa)?

/shrug
that's your solve right now?

yeah, that's the most likely team IMO

[Alduskkel]

i really hope testa flips scum because otherwise i'm almost certainly getting miselim'd tomorrow

*crosses fingers*

[Alduskkel]

koba's pronoun is they :X

[Alduskkel]

what does 3501 have to do with that?

[Alduskkel]

aldu rly trying to just farm the towncred where they can..

but srsly what do you expect town me to do differently here lol

[Alduskkel]

oh fuck i didn't mean to include the top caption

[Alduskkel]

oh shit u got me

[Alduskkel]

is aldu rly that oblivious or ?

[Alduskkel]

guys i'm a jester

[Alduskkel]

starting to think maybe VPB really did just perform the NK on N1

[Alduskkel]

i expected VPB to be dead today so i need to think things over a bit

[Alduskkel]

I don't see Koba-scum hardpushing Testa over me since miseliminating us in the opposite order seems easier. Also would Koba-scum really risk VPB getting an innocent on me when it'd be easier to just kill VPB?

That plus gut is leading me to think VPB is the scum here.

[Alduskkel]

uh just noticed andres is voting me and i would have been quickhammered unless icon is scum so... that basically confirms andres is scum

[Alduskkel]

i don't think i've ever been in a lylo with two completely separate 1v1s and i don't know how to handle it LOL

[Alduskkel]

To be honest... I feel more confident in my ability to sort between VPB/Koba than to prove I'm town and you're scum. I feel like you're kind of setting me up here.

[Alduskkel]

i love how at this point in game we're lowkey pointing at any interaction between unconfirmed players and going "is this scum theater?" (imagine the meme of a dude pointing at a butterfly)

this has been your local Town Mason not being helpful

[Alduskkel]

but yeah i don't feel like talking with a confscum and a probscum rn lol

[Alduskkel]

koba how would YOU feel if i decided to vote aldus

Well not happy likely. I think they have the 2nd highest town equity here

You think Aldus is town?

@Koba could you answer this?

[Alduskkel]

aldu can u explain your thought process throughout this game to me. i have u marked as prob scum but i have not actually engaged u as much as i should have(merely reading u based on what ive witnessed)

I don't know how detailed you want this but basically:
Started Day 1 trying to feel things out with questions, pretty normal stuff for me. I had some suspicions of Andres and NPOM even early on but not super strong stuff.
I got a good feel for Icon's posting and got a solid townread there that has stayed solid throughout this game. I also felt SB's play resembled what I do as town, so I didn't like that wagon. I felt the game needed a bit of shaking up, and I agreed with what you said about Testa's posting being hedgey/IIOA was true, so I hopped on that wagon.
Fast forward a bit, the wagons are janko vs Bob, and I townread Bob, so I hammered janko. I admit I was powertripping a bit by stealing the hammer from you.

Day 2 was when things got messy with all the claims and stuff. I also didn't understand why you flipped your read on Testa, since her posting hadn't changed imo.
I went into more depth on my Icon townread (since dats asked) and pushed NPOM a bit. However, I was pretty busy IRL during this phase and Bob got eliminated before I got to say much.

Day 3 starts, blah blah claims and stuff, and then Andres and I have an argument starting around page 103 or 104 that I thought would have been more talked about in this game. I'm tempted to quote all of it, but I won't for the sake of brevity. But basically Andres made a terrible push on me that really made me start realizing he was scum. The broad opinion of the town kind of started to shift against me though, for reasons I don't 100% understand. I couldn't get any support for Andres/NPOM wagons, which in retrospect seems like it's because they're scum. But at the time I was just like "ugh, if I'm eliminated I know it's going to hit town, and I still scumread Testa somewhat, so better her than me I guess." And then Testa got eliminated and flipped town and I was like "fuck."

And now we're here.

[Alduskkel]

I'm not a fan of the "if X is scum then I'm okay losing to them" mentality.

[Alduskkel]

can we cool it a bit in here? this game has been relatively toxicity free so far and I'd like to keep it that way

[Alduskkel]

can we cool it a bit in here? this game has been relatively toxicity free so far and I'd like to keep it that way

Cool. Would you keep town!baltar alive as scum for 2 days?

Probably not. If you're scum seems like it'd be easier just to ride my elimination to victory rather than fuck around with PT Cop nonsense.

[Alduskkel]

y i k e s

[Alduskkel]

The only universes where NPOM is town are if 1) Icon is scum or 2) both VPB and Koba are scum so yeah I'm fine yeeting NPOM.

[Alduskkel]

[Alduskkel]

icon what the hell is your solve here? one moment you're saying you want to vote NPOW, then me, then you're saying it might be andres/koba/NPOW... I don't understand

[Alduskkel]

and the most likely scenario is?

[Alduskkel]

Before you vote me, reread Andres vs me on pages 102-108 please.

[Alduskkel]

Or would you rather I dump a bunch of quotes behind a spoiler?

[Alduskkel]

what is this game dude

[Alduskkel]

I think it's hilarious that Andres is telling Icon that it's gamethrowing to vote NPOM, when Andres literally did that himself earlier.

[Alduskkel]

why is andres so unwilling to wagon NPOM now? riddle me that

[Alduskkel]

I mean this is a massive perspective slip.

Uh, what?

[Alduskkel]

It's not a perspective slip. My point is you voted NPOM and weren't worried about it being a gamethrow (because you're scum) but then try to chide Icon for voting NPOM.

[Alduskkel]

I think you voted NPOM as a distancing tactic (you only had your vote there for 3 minutes) but when it looks like Icon might be serious about placing and keeping a vote there, you got scared.

pedit: already said I'd prefer to sort between VP and Koba.

[Alduskkel]

You're trying to force the 1v1 between you and me because you prefer that to your scumpartner NPOM 1v1ing Icon or your other scumpartner VPB 1v1ing Koba.

[Alduskkel]

You'd switch to NPOM because you allegedly think he's scum.

[Alduskkel]

Err, if both me and Andres are town, wouldn't the 3 scum have hammered me and won by now?

[Alduskkel]

[Alduskkel]

Oh look! Everybody that said would be out is all of a sudden urging you to vote! Gee, I wonder why?

what is this post trying to say...?

[Alduskkel]

So why are you worried about Icon hammering DKK?

pedit: this is @NPOM

[Alduskkel]

You think me and Icon are scum together, Andres?

[Alduskkel]

I wish hellbooks were here. This game is chaos.

[Alduskkel]

VOTE: NPOM

Cool, let's do this.

[Alduskkel]

sure got real quiet all of a sudden.

[Alduskkel]

I kinda expected a reaction from you or at least NPOM.

[Alduskkel]

I'm guessing you're just playing it coy to see if scum are going to try to quickhammer so you can unvote ASAP, which makes sense from your PoV.

NPOM, I'm not sure. He might've just gone to sleep (I don't know his timezone), but I'd think he'd be more likely as town to try to fight a game losing trajectory.

[Alduskkel]

Yeah, I agree.

[Alduskkel]

Okay, so VPB is essentially confscum. Pretty much everything he says is going to be WIFOMy so take it with a grain of salt. I think we spend today trying to sort me vs Andres. I'll go into more depth later, but I would like to point out that if I'm scum I kinda fucked myself by helping off NPOM like that.

[Alduskkel]

pedit: ok a bunch of people posted while I was making this post but I'll address that in my next post not this one

Here's some evidence I pulled from VPB's iso that he's scum with Andres and not me.

Perhaps people who have played with Icon before can weigh in and say if this is typical behavior.

*waves*

ico can get very annoyed at scumreads he considers unfair, it's not scum!indicative

your thoughts on andres?

The pocketing of me feels a bit hard, so I have a natural skepticism of that. I would agree with you that some of his posts feel a bit like busy work, though I did find myself nodding along at a couple points. I could probably make a stronger argument that Billy and snowblaze are busy bodies with little substance.

Overall, still have a null on Andres. Would rather we ran up ico or Billy.

VPB avoids saying anything about Andres, and tries to shift attention onto players we know were town.

Koba and Aldsukkel are probably the worst of the testarossa votes, imo.

I actually lied, Janks vote is bad too.

There's almost no explanation of this wagon other than "tess uses a lot of words' and "I don't like snow wagon"

VPB setting himself up to vote for me at the appropriate time.

Let's counterwagon.

VOTE: Andresvmb.

Translation: "I know tess will flip town, so I'm going to find a spot to park my vote that won't draw suspicion D2"

Shading someone for voting Andres.

Andres is town af right now and I'm loving it.

Unexplained townread + perspective slip (of course scum love if their partner is being town af).

I don't think that's what andres was doing at all actually. I think he was saying Datisi was making a garbage point that obviously both wagons D1 were on town because janko flipped green. Like what? That should make zero sense unless you're really not wanting any scrutiny of the janko wagon, or you're opposed to a Bob flip. Doesn't mean Datisi is scum, but it's not a very convincing point he is making.

Defending andres instead of letting andres do it himself.

Official Vote Count 2.02

Elimination

With 11 votes in play, it takes 6 to eliminate someone.

bob3141

(3): NoPowerOverMe, Andresvmb, VP Baltar

NoPowerOverMe

(2): Billy Pilgrim, DkKoba

Not Voting

(6): hellbooks, Datisi, bob3141, Testarossa, Iconeum, Alduskkel

Deadline:

(expired on 2020-08-20 07:15:00).

Mod notes:

[/area]

Look at this vote count. Andres is on a town wagon with two other scum, and the counterwagon is on scum!

Also, I find it incredible that I signed up to a normal game, and the Mod decided that a 3 person Masonry was just standard. That’s lovely.

This is a weird thing to say...

This just pings me, I can't explain it but maybe you guys can see it anyway?

I'm not going to quote every single interaction between Andres and VPB on Day 3 but... yes, they argued, and Andres will try to tell you that makes him town. But they didn't vote each other and there wasn't any serious pushing of the other as scum. It just looks like safe distancing.

andres - I think he and I are in the same boat in terms of bad reads this game. I could see this coming from town or scum, but I'm not going to penalize him too harshly for that. Honestly, before the bob flip, I would have had him as one of my stronger town reads and I'm not going to discount that entirely. I have felt like he's trying to solve the game. I've found his play under pressure less than stellar, fringing on intentional misrep. I don't really know andres meta (or most anyone in this game for that matter), so maybe he is the type of player who over tunnels and looks for any example he can grab without considering context....IDK. I do know him trying to shade me is notable. In some ways, I can understand given I was tracked to a body N1. That being said, I think it is fairly clear from the many discussions around the circumstances since that I'd have to be a wizard to be faking my claim...and I assure I am not. I also find his obvtown!Tess read completely bonkers.

This is a lot of text to give a very ambivalent read.

VOTE: testarossa

I feel pretty comfortable putting my vote back here now. I really don't see koba scum. The likelihood of either Aldus or Testa being scum seems strong, and testa has scummier actual behaviors imo. Not loving the desperation of Aldus' vote, but unless he is scum with NPOM or Koba, this wagon seems very town comprised. (And it's hard to see either combo given my town reads on those slots.)

This is a great way to set up a later vote on me after Testa flips town (and also links me with NPOMscum).

Team is almost certainly Aldus-NPOM-Koba I think.

I'm a bird in hand type person. Flip Koba, flip Aldus, see where PoE puts us. That's the optimal strategy

It's pretty clear VPB has sided with Andres against me. I WONDER WHY.

[Alduskkel]

hellbooks i think we should use today as a chance to discuss andres vs aldu and then just hang VP and whoever is alive can deal with it tomorrow.

think VP / andres at beginning of day was v plausible theater. i'd have to reread D4 which i plan on doing -- of some importance here is aldus also came out of the gate saying he believed you over VP, i think. idr if he pivoted but i think he didn't

You're correct -- I consistently said I thought VPB was more likely scum than Koba during their 1v1.

[Alduskkel]

Andres, are you really arguing I'm scum based just on the timing of when I posted?

[Alduskkel]

@Hellbooks I would like for you to explain these posts of mine from a Scum mindset.

2652
2655
2657
2658
2702
2809
2813
2867

2652: This is just self-defense. Also seems like you KNEW there was a scum PT cop. Same for 2655.
2657: Just distancing. I can easily dig up another post where you say VPB is nearly conftown.

I say near certainty because VPB is not Confirmed Town, but nearly so.

As for the other posts, well, congratulations, you distanced from VPB and now you've dug them back up to try to prove you're town. Congratulations.
2867: I called Icon town, too.

[Alduskkel]

hellbooks, what do you think of post 4101?

[Alduskkel]

You didn't "decide" to out the information, you just had a case of TMI.

[Alduskkel]

So I had a case of TMI, and I revealed it again to benefit the Scum how? The point I’m trying to make is that I wouldn’t put something out there that would directly harm the case my Partner was going to make to try and win the game in ELo. Because, well, it’s kind of stupid. It’s one thing if I put that out there once and never returned to it. But I returned to it repeatedly, quickly argued against any sort of setup claim that would clear VPB, and insisted that having a PT Cop didn’t mean the PT Cop was Town.

I don't think what you said hurt VPB as much as you're suggesting. The thing that really sunk VPB was NPOM's death.

You will also note that I’m not the only player to have delved into the roles in the game. Koba did too. I quoted it as well. Are you going to argue that Koba had too much information as well?

What Koba posts are you suggesting are similar to your own?

[Alduskkel]

Also look at my iso. I was saying NPOM was scum for basically the entire game

[Alduskkel]

Dude I voted NPOM on page 7 of this damn game

It wasn't literal. It's page 1. You are awful tightly wound though.

Ironically I think NPOW is the one acting tightly wound.

Example:

Wow the two votes on me have a whole 9 words of "reasoning".

VOTE: NoPowerOverMe

[Alduskkel]

There's nothing TMI about Koba's post there.

[Alduskkel]

And my point WAS that you were TMIing and then you tried to defend it by saying I'd have to argue Koba was TMIing as well.

[Alduskkel]

And my point WAS that you were TMIing and then you tried to defend it by saying I'd have to argue Koba was TMIing as well.

I wasn’t TMI’ing, first of all. I had some speculation regarding the setup because I had the same questions regarding game balance. And you still haven’t answered the question - why exactly did I stand to gain as Scum by raising these questions?

Distancing that you get to point to now.

sometimes anti-town people... are scum

caleb gallo ref?

lol yeah

[Alduskkel]

Have you read the past few pages in a sober state?

I'm going to be very annoyed with you if you just lazily go "ok Aldus is scum, thinking time over."

[Alduskkel]

You aren’t the only person that voted for NPOM. I did too. Multiple times. Called him Scum way earlier than you did. So your gambit didn’t pay off, and now you’re here trying to defend yourself with the only positive element in your game - a late vote on NPOM.

Looking forward to you detailing whatever else it is that you have to say for yourself.

Anyway, I don’t think you’ll find any case in favor of either me or Aldus convincing purely from where we voted for NPOM. Let’s admit it - NPOM was the Scummiest player in the game.

Also I'd like to point out that Andres tried to say he was townier than me for voting NPOM first, but then when he realized that it was actually me who had done that, he revised his stance to say that our votes for NPOM weren't important for deciding between us. Andres is just cherry-picking the parts of the game that make him look better than me.

[Alduskkel]

Okay, I can understand why you'd see that part as NAI, but the part where he revises his stance on its relevance to the game -- don't you think that's fishy?

[Alduskkel]

I’m not cherry picking - I am Townier than you. The biggest giveaway is the Testa/You vote at the end of D3, with the votes that had previously accumulated on me jumping on Testa to ultimately stop you from dying. And you can tell it’s not a bus because the Scum clearly intended to win the game D4 with the fake guilty on Koba.

I mean I don't see how the scum plan on Day 4 is relevant to what they did on Day 3. And I'd like to point out that hellbooks and Koba voted Testa over me, and we know they're town, so it's not (as you're trying to sell it) implausible that I'm town too.