Mini Normal 2166 | Dog Show Champions | Game Over

[Testarossa]

Sup sup folks!

VOTE: UnaBombaH

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And now I remember where the scum read that became the flashwagon started...

Would like to hear the reason though, if it's a serious vote.

So are you seeing similarities from your last time with her? What do you conclude from tris' behaviour here?

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Tbh I don't really think tris' posts are scummy.

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Yep, both the vote jumpy RVS and not being helpful when pressured for explanations. I think she said that game she always plays RVS like that but I'm too sleepy and phone posting to check right now. It's probably NAI, maybe slightly scum sided cos once i mentioned it she could play it up to look like that game.

You got any reads from her or the surrounding interactions? I'm getting a bit of a tonal town read from EchoVision, and I'm curious how Alch responds now there are votes there.

Ah, that's good. I skimmed the game you were linking a bit and thought her tone there is pretty similar to what she has displayed here so far, at least it just seems to be her nature. So I agree with it being nai. Why slightly scum? Do you think she changed her approach a bit after you mentioned it?

No, not really. If anything I think your interaction with tris looked natural, probably no svs at least. It's more an gut impression.

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VOTE: Alchemist21

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alc vote tris with us

Nah, don’t think I will.

Yeah. So what do you think of the wagon on tris? Are you town/null on tris and do you think the tris voters are legit with their votes? Why don't you want to go there?

[Testarossa]

I am probably reaching here a lot, but I get very minimalistic townie vibes from Gamma for 80. As I was in the same game I had the same déjà vu and spent some thought about it if it was coincidence or could have meant anything and I feel you might be chew as townie more likely about it openly.

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Well I feel like 91 has the scum feels.

Mh, I might have an idea why you might think so I guess, but why do you think so? Do you think she overplayed her careless attitude with that?

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VOTE: Alchemist21

Eh, maybe I will add some words to this before going to sleep.

Kind of triggered by 75. Can't really say why it does, if phrasing or tone, I don't know. It just feels like the type of post that I see so often early from scum, Reminded me a bit of scumRaya in my first game here.

However I think 84 comes across as an alibi post that was made for the sake of it. I feel like he is focussing on the wrong thing regarding Echo with asking why he repeatedly votes tris and not why he is so cool with the wagon on her to begin with. He didn't seem to care much about it anyway as Echo ignored it and Alch didn't followed up on it either.

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I think it’s the kind of wagon that forms on people who screw around and people don’t get the joke. Tris’s behavior is probably more likely Town than scum. Will look closer at the voters when I’m not tired; right now all that stands out is the one person voting them 4 times.

What does it mean to you that he is always voting tris again?

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what you're saying at the end there is confusing. i don't understand the words.

but, responding beyond that: I don't see why mafia wouldn't also have the same deja vu.

Yes, they could have. I just feel town is more likely dwelling on such a minor detail and loudly thinking about it or trying to figure it out while scum might notice and think about it and just dismiss it or keep in the back of the mind. Hence I said it might be a reach, it's what I think to be more likely.

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- testa is reminding me of them the last game we played together so +town

Huh, ok. Last time you were troubling with placing me on either side and were more leaning town on me for effort while I got scumread later by others for waffling, being hedgy etc. While I am a connoisseur of waffles, I don't think I have been like that here so far. Why do I remind you of my town game and am less likely to be scum?

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I wouldn't really say that's what Tris was doing though, more like... flopping? Idk, I'm reluctant to call it flailing since I agree with your second sentence. If anything, it's Echo who was mucking about by spamvoting her.

Good to see you are also thinking of tris as town (as I do). Can I interest you in voting Alch or where do you have your head at rn?

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I think it’s his schtick.

Mh. Not that I disagree, but considering it caught your attention enough to double down on that in 112 it's a little bit anticlimactic. Oh well.

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Talk to me about tris town

Rather subjective, firstly I don't like half the wagon on her (mainly Una, who is my second scumlean).

Also I don't think her play comes across like coming from a scum agenda. It feels like she genuinely doesn't care how she gets perceived by others and with her recent posts it looks more to me that there is an actual interest in figuring other players' stances out.

While it is to take with a grain of salt I also skimmed a few games after I looked into the game Mizzy linked and I thought it was noticeable that she was as scum more serious out of the gate while she is more loose as town. It's easy to manipulate, but with my overall impression I will just roll with the simple answer here.

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/shrug, your posts seemed enough effort which reminded me of the other game. though i'm not sure why you're bringing up waffling? i wasn't townreding you for that at any point, was i?

Ah, fair enough. No you weren't, people usually scumread me for that. I might have mistaken you with someone else then, maybe Andres? Doesn't matter anyway, the point is more that I feel the town points came a bit too easy for my liking. If it's just the effort, very well, might give it a pass, although I don't think this is a reliable tell.

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hmm, mind talking about this a bit more? like, if you think the townpoints came too easy, and you also don't think efforting is a reliable tell for you... why are you giving me a pass?

Because I was going by the original assumption it was not or at least not just for the effort. If it's just for pure effort I think it might be comparable and you shouldn't really be aware of the latter (I don't have that much site meta), so considering your point of view I don't think it should be something that should be interpreted in your disfavour.

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I'm a scumlean for voting tris, or..?

I chose to not explain my vote in full just to see what people would make it out to be.
But I do believe my vote was well placed, and townies should be able to see my PoV.
Obviously it's still early in D1, but so far I feel like there has been no reason to move anywhere either.

No, not your vote. Not directly.

It's half gut (or I just have yet to warm up with your persona, actually still have to then) the other half is more or less what tris addressed to, it looked like you found a good and easy enough vote to drop for the beginning and call it day without really interacting with tris in order to sort her. By what I got from your later posts now I think you are generally rather passive in that regard and see how things play out?

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Ico's entrance isn't giving me any clear vibes yet. Maybe because he isn't directly picking a fight with someone like last time. I like Datisi questioning his townread on me though, that's actually the one read I am not really getting either, unless it was more a gut thing. Not feeling his Gamma read either, I don't think Gamma was that solvey at that point?

The wagon on him was pretty meh. Generally not a fan of pushing people who haven't even checked in and as some pointed out the reasons were rather eehh. To be fair though one could have assumed Ico was lurking, because at least I saw Ico being around in the forum several times, I think even posting elsewhere. But neither Alch nor Gamma mentioned it, so...

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I am liking Nero's push on Gamma, at least I think he truly believes what he is seeing here, so I think this comes from a townie mindset.

@Nero:
I figure your Alch mindmeld, for which you are townreading him here, is more or less described in 228? I can get why you would think of him as town then, but why wouldn't he do these things as scum either? Taking the initiative on an inactive slot is a bit... underwhelming. Or rather just an experience thing?

Not liking Gamma on the recent pages, his handling of Ico, Cakez and the setup talk aren't really thrilling.

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Nero feels light tunneled on Gamma. Not THIS MUST DIE but This is THE thing worthy of looking at right now. Gamma isn't really worried. Not really feeling SvT to me but I could guess I could see it coming from TvT or SvS where Gamma knows it's not something to worry about

I can get why you can see this as TvT or SvS, but why are you ruling out TvS? Even although Nero isn't deathtunneling Gamma here he is still taking some serious effort to draw the attention to Gamma.

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???

you could argue the stuff about him "joking" with me is subjective but his misrep of cakes content is an objective fact so...he's pretty scummy.

Yes, I meant more in regards with your earlier interactions, the misrep later stands for itself, there isn't much room to argue.

When I said I was mindmelding with Alch I actually meant his stuff about Tris. I'm a little confused though if you can see why my 228 would make me town read Alch why then are you asking about it? Are you trying to argue that he's null? I mean, the answer is of course that he certainly

COULD

throw down a vote on an inactive slot but, and maybe I'm just projecting here, but Ico not posting here was scummy and thus I think its a pretty good vote. Players that are "lurking" get ran up all the time b/c lurking

is

a viable scum strategy. OFC, the flip side is that he's just scum and threw down a vote on an inactive slot since its somewhat safe to do so but we are both seeing the Tris thing similarly so that sorta makes me feel like he's also town.

Ah, gotcha with tris. Nah, I am not trying to argue that Alch is null, I was rather interested in your insight how you came to that conclusion as for me the reasons you wrote looked nai to me. However it's probably just because I generally don't agree with the argument inactive with zero posts = scummy, particularly in this case with Ico as by what I got to know about Ico so far with playing with him it seems a bit comical and a pretty stark contrast that he would be so shy as scum that he wouldn't post at all.

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Echo's posts today are the first that gave me a real tendency on this slot.

His take on his wagon (and votes) is imo spot on and I pretty much agree with both his reads on Alch and Nero.

To be frank I don't think Echo wagon is a good wagon.

VOTE: Gamma

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Gamma, who are you townreading? Are you still town on Nero as in the beginning?

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Not usually as purposefully as that though, if you ask me.

Why do you think he acts like that as scum though, even doubling down on it when the wagon on him is already at E-2? I have seen Nero's take on it, but I find it hard to believe since he was already acting like that before Gamma got wagoned.

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Someone got a more solid read on Egix? He kind of moved down to the scum side with his recent posts as they feel kind of fluffy with being here without actually doing/saying much. Plus he seems mostly focussed on Echo, not really looking elsewhere.

[Testarossa]

and Alch kinda comes off as Town too

Some insight what indicates Alchtown to you or just the vibes you are getting there?

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The hell happened with Gamma's avatar? It went from creepy cute to... whatever it is now.

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but i've got a townread on testa

Is this read still based on your impression from the first pages or where is that firm townread coming from? (I remember Datisi asked this again, but there was no answer iirc)

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I'm interested in the pool of players who nobody has really talked about all day like Mizzy, Testa, Which and UnaBombah.

Sure. What interests you?

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I think I am finally getting first town vibes from Datisi. Kind of liked their recent interactions with Ico, also I share his "hesitation" about Ico (unless I misinterpret here lol). Although I am not really sure why Ico should be scumreading him instead of being null at him?

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Welcome, skitter.

Can you give some insight why you consider Gamma as fairly townie?

Going by your big post I figure you have Alch in your scumpool. Why are you suggesting Nero over him and implying to flashwagon him? (unless it's really just due to not being up to date with the gamestate yet) I mean, if you really would like to vote outside Echo/Gamma a push on Alch would imo be the only one who has most likely have the chance to go through (imo still the scummiest slot).

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what did you like?

the 'oh god oh god i'm doing jackshit this game, better get started' or the panicked 'omg ico y u no scumread me'

or smt else?

The former kind of, the latter nah. Eh, it's nothing of solid substance, more an intuitive thing. Like I think his lack of investment in this game looks genuine, but not like not invested scum. I have been playing with the thought if he was using these posts to soften up for joining the Gamma wagon in an easy way, but I thought him being critical of your progression on Gamma in the very next post shows to me like they are genuinely trying to look into that. Just feel there is no need to do that as scum.

Please respond to my 499 if there is time.

i am also also interested in what you're seeing in me tho
how much do you rely on meta with people you've played with before?

See above.
Otherwise I consider meta only as a supportive element to verify a tendency that I already have formed on a player or to make sense of remarkable early game behaviour (like NPOM last game or tris here). However I rely mostly on intuitive reads and so I do with people I have played with before. I can't really control when that kicks in, so I prefer to hold any bias from earlier games back until I have gotten a first grasp on a player. It's a bit different if I look at other people's perception of me though, because I try to look at it from their perspective.

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I need to reread the whole sequence of exe shifting from Gamma to Echo tomorrow when I am sober, but I really dislike that exe. I think it started with tris switching votes. If Gamma is town that would imply she is pretty likely town too, as Gamma was at E-1 and Ico already requested a claim from Gamma. If he is scum... well I kind of think it was easy enough to pull something out of her fingers to paint Echo as the scummier one to justify switching votes sooner. Looks risky to stick to the bus so close to deadline. Need to reread when she was around, still think she is town though. Not sure about others yet.

Interesting is that with both flips the first major wagon (tris wagon) with votes by Cakez, Echo, Datisi and Una is half town with three votes on Echo as the second major wagon. Although the latter was mostly rvs. In my experience scum usually avoids the first major wagon and prefer to vote elsewhere, especially if it is a bait looking target like tris was at the beginning. So I would at least assume Una is probably more likely town by that, even more if tris would be scum.

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The Alch wagon came up as response to tris vs Echo wagons and then again the second Echo wagon came up as response to the Alch wagon. Besides Cakez and Echo no one of the Alch wagon has been part of the tris or first Echo wagon. Although there was also the attempt of the Ico wagon by Alch/Gamma.

Taking a look at the second Echo wagon I am the most wary of Alch, Egix and skitter there. I disliked skitter's hesitance about flashwagoning Alch, when she thought Echo and Gamma were both town (she was, wasn't she?). Alch was either voting town or doing that weak Ico push which I didn't liked either. Egix was kind of just there. Not sure yet how many scum were on it. Usually I would assume just one, because Echo was such a exe bait too, but it kind of depends on Gamma's alignment too.

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My head hurts, need sleep. Anyway I am somewhat at a scumpool of Alch, Gamma, Egix and skitter. If three scum, this covers probably not all. Not sure if Alch and Gamma fit together. Both were voting tris in the beginning and doing that weird Ico push and then townreading each other (not sure about Alch, but too lazy to check rn). Looks to me a bit too obvious, also I have somewhere in the back of my mind that someone said that Gamma prefers to distance early as scum.

VOTE: Alchemist21

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based on how skitter came in I'd guess some under the radar players, to throw out some names maybe unah and testa?

Why not Egix?

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hmu with the upshot bcuz I don't particularly care to parse these blocks of text for your wagonomics

lol I will try.

tris = town if you are town, because of vote switch. However also don't think she bussed if you are scum.

Una maybe town too, because I feel scum might rather go for Echo instead of voting early exebait like tris. Admittedly shaky take, because Echo was also quite a bait.

Think that Echo wagon got revived as response to scumAlch wagon. Ico wagon was maybe failed response. Anyway Alch, Egix and skitter on Echo wagon = bad.

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Echo wagon seems more like a response to Gamma than Alch.

Wait, did I screw up the vc order? Was really sure the Echo wagon came up first, because I remember voting Gamma as third as I disliked exactly that Echo wagon.

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Ah, yes yes. We are. I was talking about the earlier sequence from 326 to 378.

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testa could you post a tl;dr on why you find Alch scummy, I tried to find what I thought of his ISo but I'm too tired to really focus in on reading it

Tell me about it, it's 05:00 AM here, let me go.

Didn't liked his earlier posts. Felt like focussing on wrong things and posts felt kind of filler-ish. Disliked Ico push. What meanwhile bothers me more is the treatment of his Echo vote. He only focused on Echo's weird behaviour, but never really bothered to care about Echo's actual reads. He just parked his vote there. Additionally what i said about the Echo wagon coming up against the Alch wagon, which had too many shady people on it.

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don't nessisarily agree with Tris town if Gamma is town.

I mean it's not set in stone, but tris just checked in after Ico said it's 24 hours till deadline and that Gamma should claim with being at E-1 as I understand how it is getting handled here. If Gamma is town and she is scum why not lurking it out and wait till Gamma shows up and claims and then have a change of heart switching over to Echo? That's two birds with one stone. I don't see why she as scum would act like she did, especially because Echo is more likely to stay in the center of attention with his playstyle the next day.

[Testarossa]

@Testarossa, Do you usually play on Mafiascum or on another site?

I know that question seems random but I assure you it has relevance.

Right now only here, you could consider me kind of as "newbie" to this site I think.

Used to play a lot on another site, but well, that was 7-8 years ago.

[Testarossa]

How much of your play is still based on how things worked on that other site? What you’re saying about how the early wagons played out would be more reasonable for a game that had 24-48 hour deadlines but not really for these longer MS deadlines.

Maybe, old habits die hard after all. I mean I would let that apply on my take on Una, fine.

I don't think it doesn't matter too much with looking at your wagon. My impression of you, solely based on this game so far, is that you wouldn't seem to be the kind of character who wouldn't mind being in the center of attention as scum and those often respond even to an early wagon in some kind of way.

My problem with you lies not mainly in this though. You were early able to correctly understand Echo's odd behaviour as "his schtick". Somewhat similar case with tris, where you came around thinking of it as town. When you dropped your vote on Echo I could imagine you were thinking it was for avoiding scumhunting with it or too much anti-town play for your liking by that point. But later? You only object to his take on Cakez that Cakez wouldn't have said anything unique. Otherwise no reaction to Echo's reads nor his suspicions (you were even one of them), which looks odd if him avoiding scumhunting was one of your major concerns. Why were you fine with leaving your vote on Echo?

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Tbh I am not sure about the nka about the Datisi kill. My take is that it is probably just the safe shot at someone active, who is rather unlikely to get voted out. His most interesting take was probably at the end in 692, but I don't know if he was implying Nero/skitter was SvS (because it was my impression he thought of skitter as town) or he was just disliking Nero there.

[Testarossa]

anyone want to name a player really quick?

Actually what about Egix? You were trying to start a wagon on him at the end of the day. I figure by 502 you were disliking his Echo vote, which was the last about that. How do you think now about him?

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That was my current read. If I had to guess though, mayyybe scum?

If I go by your post about me it looks like you were indecisive, you kind of listed two pro-town points and two pro-scum points. What is in your opinion tipping the balance to the scum side?

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Have been skimming the thread a bit, but too tired for more, so just a few things.

I am kind of town on Una, although it's more based on an irrational thing, but I like it.

Una, I think you mentioned somewhere that Alch and skitter slot are never scum together. Can you elaborate on that? Is that conclusion a two-sided thing? I mean I was considering something similar, but I can see that only in a world where skitter slot is scum, because I can see her fence sitting attitude on Alch as a purposeful false association with Alch.

Also what's your Alch read? I remember you were once on either Alch and/or one of me/Cakez as scum.

[Testarossa]

Egix, where is your head at rn? You just have tris and me as suspicions?

Independent of that, can you explain your current read on skitter slot?

[Testarossa]

VOTE: Gamma

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What do you think of me, Test?

Still think you are town. Your interactions with skitter (there seems to be histroy I can't weigh on though) and possible conclusions out of Datisi kill may have made me pause a bit, but I still feel good about you.

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I am not liking Cakez in Una vs Cakez. Kind of feel he is making more out of it then it was, I don't think bringing up points that make you question your read on a slot in a direct conversation with said person is a push, especially if there is no serious intention of actually voting there. I am not really liking the wagon on him though, Una aside.

[Testarossa]

I am chewing a bit on a weird association between skitter slot (rather Mizzy) and Egix. When I was asking about reads on Egix D1 Mizzy picked that on without responding to anything else (could have just been coincidence as it was just the very next post) and shaded Egix lightly. Egix kind of reacted to the same post and just threw some light/harmless shade on Mizzy. Is either coincidence and I read too much into it, but Egix general stance on that slot is pinging me.

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I am still not really settled on a proper read on Ico. I am still a bit confused that he casually townread me that firmly on D1, especially because I was purposely avoiding most of the traits that caused me to get flashwagoned in our last game (although he wasn't scumreading me there to be fair). It's also noticeable that he was on all major D1 wagons, although this might only be more relevant if we know about affected slots.

However I don't really think Icoscum kills Datisi here, when Datisi has him in his to townreads? Also the way he reacted in his conversation with Una looks imo in character with his town persona. So maybe rather positive tendency here.

[Testarossa]

Una, I think you mentioned somewhere that Alch and skitter slot are never scum together.

Yes, and that's literally all I'm saying.
I can actually see either of the two as

potential scumsters

- not necessarily my own scumreads as of right now though - but they are never scum together.
If one of them is scum - the other is town. Period.

Well that would explain this.

That would indeed shed some light on it.

It would also explain why skitter was hesitating to flash Alch at the end of D1.

Would like to get this confirmed by one of the other possible neighbours though. None of the potential neighbours was really sorting the others here in the thread, Alch not at all at least. And I don't know how the activity was even there considering Una wasn't that much around for most of D1 and Mizzy/skitter neither.

[Testarossa]

What conclusions did I make?

The only conclusions I remember being made is when Ico lightly accused me of killing Datisi and you (at least I think) when you said he was prob killed b/c he was a safe active kill.

Ah, I didn't meant any conclusions you made. Meant mine, which I was thinking about. I have the assumption that probably max one scum is among Datisi's townreads, so I was considering who among his non-townreads might have a good reason to kill him off without receiving too much of a backslash. However I think you are right that you probably more likely kill skitter off (and might get away with it), unless you are both scum.

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@testa Who would you lynch besides Alch?

can I interest anyone in an ico wagon?

Actually I am supposed to be voting Gamma rn as I did in 920. NM and maybe Egix might be fine too, but my scumread on the former was mostly based on skitter being on the fence regarding Alch, which is now kind of resolved with the neighbourhood. Although I wonder, if the premise is that there is usually one scum in a 3p hood, how long would you hold back as scum on your fellow neighbours before cutting down your pool to hide in? Need to reread that slot tomorrow or Saturday.
Egix is a rather weak scumread, which is just mostly gut driven, so not too convinced by myself to go there.

Why are you scumreading Ico? Is it for his opening on D2? I might be biased here from last game, but I just think he doesn't kill Datisi off, if Datisi is townreading him, considering how hard Datisi usually seems to be ready to defend Ico if he townreads him.

[Testarossa]

I will just accept my false vote on Alchemist and return there opportunistically while it has at least minimal support with tris. VOTE: Alchemist21

[Testarossa]

Don't these two things contradict?

If you think there's gonna be a scummer in his (datisi) town reads why is Ico unable to be that? Who among his town reads do you think is the scummer?

Not really. As I said, Ico is kind of special. Last game I played with both Datisi and Ico, Ico was fighting half the playerlist on D1 and Datisi who had him as top townread was basically his life insurance there. I just think if you are scum and you can have a pretty vocal townie who is willing to defend you, who have you as top townread (although by my impression not

that

strong as last time), then you just keep him around as it makes it harder for town to vote you out and if you go down there would at least be damning associations. I have trouble believing Icoscum would let that pass and would instead be super scared as scum to kill Datisi off nonetheless. I mean, of course I can be wrong, but I am not really seeing the motivation here.

If there is scum I think either in NM or Cakez. However NM (or rather skitter) has no real motivation to kill off Datisi either as they were also growing wary of you, so why cutting down a potential ally for a very likely 1v1 with you? And skitter was out for it as she was voting you out of the gate on D2. Besides the Alch fence sit thing that slot never really pinged me in any particular way.

As for Cakez there is wagon analysis and his fos on Una in his disfavour. His progression from Echo not getting better/avoiding scumhunting/just playing due to pressure to "still thinking he is misunderstood town" makes me raise my brows too, because it didn't seemed like he was thinking of Echo as town before. Then again I am scumreading almost everyone voting/suspecting him, besides Una and tris. So the more I do think about this the more I am not so sure about my original assumption tbf.

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not really? Like even if we give her the benefit of the doubt that she's town and she understood that a 3p hood is going to have 0-1 scumAND she thought the possible scum in the hood was Alch. Either she's like really kinda...I dunno....clueless? that she wasn't going to get her pet Nero elim she should have moved to Alch and at least tried to get someone she felt was scum instead of just like not even try and just g with the flow and elim someone that she didn't really think was scum. If she's town then this seems like very bad town play to me. If she was scum and successfully gets me eliminated then she has to find someone new to push and I could see a scum her hard push me and then when I flip town she goes "oh look! I was pushing Alch earlier!" and continues to push him.

I am interpreting her behaviour around Alch that she was most likely intending to take more time with using the neighbourhood in order to sort Alch. I mean the Neighbours know better what happened between skitter and Alch during N1.

I mean you are right that it doesn't look good for skitter not trying to win people over for her scumreads then just let the exe play out between two players she assumed to be town. Maybe I am just symphatizing here, because sometimes I feel similar with resigning when the gamestate is dead set on seeing your townreads dead, no matter what.

[Testarossa]

VOTE: gamma

Too late.

[Testarossa]

Nero, do you think Gamma is bussing the NM slot?

[Testarossa]

Most of skitter's read are somewhat similar to Mizzy's reads... more or less at least.

Una, were there any interactions between Mizzy and Alch in the hood with Mizzy trying to sort Alch? Did skitter say anything noteworthy in your opinion? Don't tell me your guys' hood is really that uninteresting.

[Testarossa]

The Echo exe was simply not good and a waste for one shot we had.

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I can check in the next 5-6 hours several times, so I can move my vote to make sure one of the wagons can go through.

[Testarossa]

but he's not doing that here. Shouldn't that be kind of a red flag?

It's one of the major things why I am not reading him as last time, however alle these fights (almost) always were started from the other side and not from Ico. Which is why I said that his conversation with Una gave me more a positive vibe about him.

Despite all I said I must admit I am lowkey scumreading his Gamma vote though, right now when we were close to deadline, the Gamma wagon just disappeared and leaving everyone else caught in a 3/3/3 deadlock with going vla right after that. But maybe I am just mildly mad. lol

[Testarossa]

I get your point regarding skitter/NM (including NM's lets vote Alch thing), I always forget this thing that Datisi said to reevaluate there on D2. Ugh

It's kind of frustrating that this slot had three people, who are all so different to read.

[Testarossa]

Uggghhh, I figure because of weekend there is hardly anyone around here?

I am probably at Alch > NM > Cakez.

I hate that Cakez wagon, even although I am townreading tris, it's almost the same as the Echo wagon. I just accept that Alch is at this point a lost cause and he will get away again with low effort. NM wagon isn't looking to go through either, because he is even selfvoting and I doubt he will see his own exe through.

Nonetheless
VOTE: Not_Mafia

[Testarossa]

I am going to sleep in 1-2 hours, if there is no one else willing to go for NM I will put Cakez at E-1 as the next time I can be around is literally minutes before deadline.

[Testarossa]

Both Cakez and NM were posting elsewhere recently...

Can't hold out any longer. Sorry if you are town, Cakez.

VOTE: SirCakez

E-1

[Testarossa]

I am fine with massclaim, but please let this get done as quickly as possible so we don't waste too much time on it.

I am still assuming we might have three scum, just because I prefer to go with the worst case, but I don't really know. What we know from the setup could as well work fine with two scum I guess.

The central question from my point of view rn is, if we have three scum, what reasons could scum have had on D1 for all three to pile up on exebait like Echo when Gamma is town? Because I am town and I am fairly certain Una too, which leaves Gamma as the only questionable one off the Echowagon. So if we have three scum Gamma is scum in almost any scenario unless anyone else has a smart answer to that.

[Testarossa]

@Ico:
What do you think of Egix? If NM is scum he looks as a pretty suitable partner imo. Just go through his ISO with focus on his reads/stances on Mizzy/skitter. He has been weirdly on the edge on them for the whole game. Same viceversa with Mizzy/skitter on Egix.

[Testarossa]

I'm also not sure if it means anything, but I think me and skitter both were discussing revealing the hood as early as D1, and Alch was the one who didn't want to do it.
That's why I threw that comment at Nero about both of my neighbors never being scum together.
Not sure if it means anything, just throwing out anything and everything I can think of.

Why was Alch against revealing the hood?

Also happy birthday, Una.

[Testarossa]

what's your townreads looking like?

Una and tris would be the townreads I would feel the best about. Would normally have you on the rather town than scum side, but you took a dent with that Gamma vote yesterday. Please tell me you just forgot about deadline and votecount.

[Testarossa]

can you link a couple posts? I just reread egix and i found a grand total of 0 (zero) references to the mizzy slot

I meant those:

Mizzy: 292 293 457

Egix: 477 724 926

skitter: 583 (far at the end)

Like it may as well be just coincidence and I see there more than there actually is, but it just pings me in a weird way that they were remaining so vague at each other for the whole game.

[Testarossa]

No, I don't think they ever interacted directly.

[Testarossa]

Language fail.

I meant when they generally talked about each other.

Pedit: Oh well, then it's probably just me.

[Testarossa]

what do you think of my poe in 1126?

I mean with my townreads it's basically the same poe.

If we assume three scum, then it's most likely Gamma + Alch/NM + ???. Last spot is probably between you and Egix.

We have kind of to wait for the massclaim to see if two or three scum would seem more plausible though. Because two scum might reduce the suspicion on Gamma a bit.

[Testarossa]

Did Gamma even push you on D2? I only remember that he wrote something about not liking your entrance.

[Testarossa]

Although to be fair I am not remembering much of Gamma's D2 anyway, just that he was on skitter/NM for the whole time. And doubling down on Alch townread.

[Testarossa]

feel free to start the massclaim

Is this @me?

Yes, please. I think any of the first 3-4 in his list would be good enough.

[Testarossa]

I guess so. I am VT.

[Testarossa]

I think only Ico is left, no?

[Testarossa]

This was literally the only way I was going to not push for them today, and I'm glad it turned out like this.

I was sooo waiting for that. Got a little bit salty when Cakez started that fight with you on D2 when I was hoping you would start pushing me and see who would join in as I felt some people were avoiding taking a real stance so far. Was on the verge of just blatantly provoking you if we wouldn't have had that many major wagons already.

who else was scumreading testa? I know I had her as potential scum, did anyone else?
I'm curious to see what their new reads end up being

Felt like Alch was gearing up to it at the beginning of this day too. Which I found a bit late considering I was out for his blood for the whole game. However felt most were on me just null/uncertain (Egix was basically rather carefully scumleaning without any real consequence) besides those who townread me or Una.

[Testarossa]

I am not really sure what to make out of the setup. Before Ico's claim I was in firm belief that most of the town power were rather passive roles like Neighbours, IC and Commuter, so that the Personal Watcher, while not catching the killer, can hard guilty the scum pr (even night Cop as potential distraction). Jailkeeper sticks a bit out, because another active role, although only 1-shot, which softens it down but is also kind of convenient.

If anything because of the Watcher I am 99% certain that the "Goon" is one of the Neighbours, because the Personal modifier would prevent a scenario where the scum Neighbour gets caught redhanded and thus turning the rest of the hood into conftown, which would be quite brutal with IC and Cop.

[Testarossa]

Also leaning on two scum, the town power doesn't seem that strong, although I still think quantitatively it's a bit much for 12p and two scum. If we assume all pr claims are town that would leave overall three VT, which sounds not so much for a normal game? Even if we consider the town Neighbours as VT. Which could imply scum in the hood and in tris/Ico.

[Testarossa]

I think scum Commuter doesn't really fit into this game. It weakens the already gated Cop and makes, if two scum, the Watcher rather misleading/useless.

I think the way tris claimed looks pretty fine. While not revealing her modifier she even claimed that she commuted last night, when only half the massclaim was done. So there was a risk that she might have gotten caught by pr interaction. Don't think she is scum fakeclaiming Commuter.

Had a strong townread since the beginning on her anyway, which never really changed.

[Testarossa]

What bothers me about Icoscum is that I feel it would have been smarter to just claim VT. Sure, the jailkeep shot gives him a bit wiggle room, but it would heavily rely on endgaming on D4, because I don't see the plan once tris would have been killed. In contrast he could have just hidden himself in the VT pool, with Gamma, Egix and me, who would have all been more likely to get voted out.

[Testarossa]

I STILL think Ico's claim is too minute to be a legitimate attempt to fakeclaim a PR as scum. 1 shot JK is super pitiful, scum would go for the full deal, or at least something like odd night to fit datisi's flip
but there's ALSO the fact SC flipped personal, and Ico is like the only remaining visiting role left. Maybe ico is like, gated Rb of some sort?

I think I just made myself very LESS certain of Ico's town status.

Could be, although I feel it's difficult to deduce what the scum power is here.

Actually I think a full Jailkeeper would have stuck out way too much, so it had to be gated in some way. As you I was actually suspecting scum would claim something with Odd-Night too, but I guess that was too predictable anyway.

I hope Ico is soon around after the weekend or later at Sunday, because now that I think about it I actually have a specific question about his claim.

[Testarossa]

Two Goons in this setup looks too rough to me, even for this site if I go by the impression I got so far.

All Goons could make sense with three scum, but I don't know. In the end they can lie about their claims as they like anyway, so we probably shouldn't let us caught up too much by that.

[Testarossa]

I mean if we think both Ico and tris are town, then this would mean one of the two VTs has to be the other scum besides the Neighbour.

Gamma made this weird push on Ico on D1 together with Alch and townread Alch on each day. Considering both were viable flips throughout the game I kind of wouldn't expect them to play that obviously together and at least hold a window open for a bus. Don't remember what Alch's read on Gamma was, have to reread the game anyway, however I don't think he was for a Gamma exe. Gamma and NM is also weird, because Gamma is now like for 1,5 days out for that slot's head, which would make a team of Gamma/NM pretty passive.

Admittedly wagon analysis looks not so bright for Gamma, because the peak wagon on him on D1 was almost/potentially all town, same for D2. Wagon analysis with two scum is tricky though.

Don't know yet about Egix. Works with NM I guess. Less with Alch, mostly because both were pushing for mis-exe on both days wthout any real reconsiderations. Need to reread him with his interactions with these slots I guess.

[Testarossa]

It is now day 3, which ends in (expired on 2020-10-13 04:41:56).

We don't have that much time anymore btw.

[Testarossa]

Hmmm?

It is related to your jk shot though. But I don't think part of the question doesn't hurt, because it is kind of obvious you weren't using your shot there.

Can you explain what your read was on Nero at the end of D2 after Cakez flip? I am pretty sure you didn't use your shot in N1, because neither were there any outstanding suspicions going by your D2 entrance nor was it easy to predict the N1 kill (at least I couldn't). However I think if you weren't scumreading Nero, anyone should have seen the Nero kill coming by a mile. Now you voted him in the beginning of D2, but seemed rather clueless. Later you at least voted Nero's suspects (counting symbolic NM vote in twilight). So I don't really know where you had your mind in this matter. Why were you using your jk shot anywhere else or not that night?

[Testarossa]

i think maybe both egix and alchemist are mafia

Not sure if both, but a good chance one of them, yes. I think these two are the only ones who so far got the exe they wanted each day, which always turned out as innocent. I am not even sure if they have interacted at all.

[Testarossa]

can we do alchemist?

Why should I vote Alch over NM? (Don't just say "cos he's your buddy")

Why did NM came up on top after your reread?

[Testarossa]

I feel like Alch might be a good choice..but N_M might be even better.

I know what you mean too well. Also always changing my mind about both, it's frustrating that it can only be one of them. What makes you think NM is the better choice here?

[Testarossa]

I am not really sure what to make out of Ico's answer, like it's difficult to understand what he was thinking as potential protective, especially considering he went into this day thinking it was elo. I actually have more to ask, but there is no point if he doesn't want to talk about his shot yet. Guess it's better to resolve Ico tomorrow and instead making a first step in sorting the hood.

[Testarossa]

I'm still worried that I already know what this will turn into.
We mislynch in the hood today and (assuming the game isn't over), scum will either subtly or forcefully push for another lynch in the hood tomorrow.
IF we are all town it's bad.
And even if one of us is scum, it could be either one of Alch/N_M, and I do not feel energetic or confident enough to make sure I'm not the final lynch if it comes to that either.
Which is why I do not want it to be "lets just sort the hood by lynching the scummiest one in there", but instead want people to actually give arguments why N_M/Alch should be lynched.
Think of potentially "solving the hood" as an added benefit instead of the actual agenda.

It's not that I disagree. All scenarios should be considered if it comes down to it. I am less worried about the hood being all town though, because it's not that the hood have been oozing town this game and I have been scumreading Alch and NM for most of the game independent of the hood. I am only fairly confident you are town there.

I agree with people giving arguments for it, it's why I am not doing much in that regard, because I want to avoid turning this into a follow the IC as I feel there are too many who seem like they are sitting on the fence.

[Testarossa]

VOTE: Alchemist 21

[Testarossa]

Huh, not really what I was expecting. Kind of bizarre kill.

Ico was still a viable mis-exe. So scum was afraid he might clear a townie or guilty them if he still had his shot. Kind of indicates that scum doesn't really feel confident here to cast doubt on Ico or take on the people that townread him.

Kill looks weird for tris, because it breaks the Ico/tris pool apart. Tbh I think she just kills Una as scum? Weird for Gamma/Egix too though, but I figure it can make sense if they are too afraid of taking on Ico?

[Testarossa]

I will reread stuff over the weekend when I have more time.

Considering D3 went as it went with everyone being so on the fence and passive I suspect we really only have two scum and it wasn't elo yesterday, otherwise I feel there would have been a decisive push on NM at some point, at least an attempt.

Tbh I am still confident in my townread on tris and think it's just between Egix and Gamma.

tris kind of played herself into a corner regarding the hood where she had no choice but to go for Alch. Looks pretty impractical to me for scum.

Unfortunately the first Alch wagon on D1 got derailed by town with Ico and Echo, however Egix vote switch from Alch (3 votes) to Echo (also 3 votes) fits the bill of the classic "from bus to counterwagon" vote. Only thing that makes me doubt on Egix is that he and Alch basically always pushed the same exe, although to be fair Alch was on both D1 and D2 threatened by an eventual exe.

I just don't know if Gamma and Alch do this Ico push as partners. It's just too... helpless/desparate. And they have been townreading each other through the whole game, no real attempts for possible distancing.

[Testarossa]

@mod:
V/LA until October 17th

Will reread all three slots and some specific things on Saturday or Sunday.

[Testarossa]

Alch/tris interactions just doesn't feel like SvS. Especially when he did his Ico push and his explaining for why he thought tris was town with her playstyle in the beginning looked like the kind of you would do to avoid the first major wagon.

1224 looks to me like there was an idea to set up Ico/tris. Need to reread the context outside if the iso though.

1146 was basically his second post going into D3. Both statements on Egix and Gamma are rather eeehhh, I didn't understood the relationship between NM and tris.

Eh, just going to sleep.

[Testarossa]

Reread the game. Didn't affect my reads in any way.

Just don't get any scumpings from tris at all. :shrug:

Also stick to Una's logic about the hood, which just sounds right to me.

However I think tris can claim her modifier, after all there is zero chance she ends up as nk at this point of the game.

[Testarossa]

I am ambivalent about Egix and Gamma, because there are pro/contra reasons for both. Leaning more on Egix though.

The way Egix came in this day looks to me like a scum opening tbh. Admittedly I also have a negative bias for his treatment of my slot as the way his scumread on me developed and got stronger is just as I have seen so many times done on me as I am the usual mid/late-game mis-exe for scum.

I also noticed that Egix never handed out any read on Alch while Alch also always remained indecisive there. Generally Alch/Egix interactions felt very trivial/artificial, that never really lead anywhere.

[Testarossa]

On the other hand there is wagon analysis and literally all nks pointing into Gamma's direction.

I kind of thought that Gamma might have been avoiding the Echowagon on purpose to stay off the wagon where Alch already was despite being in danger of getting voted out. However he started the push on skitter at the end of D1. Assuming this would have gone through it would have forced skitter to reveal the hood or she could have flipped as neighbour. And we know for a fact that Alch was against this, even although scum has no daytalk. If skitter flips town neighbour on D1 the game is locked in a 1v1 between Una and Alch on D2. It looks pretty suboptimal for scum imo and kind of contradicts what Alch was attempting to.

Also I feel Alch and Egix could have hoped to sit it out on the Echowagon as there was a point where Gamma was at E-1, which would have been a potential all-town mis-exe, which is like the best case for scum.

[Testarossa]

Nero I just don’t think Gamma’s scum here? Are you willing to come to Echo?

This was at a vc where Gamma had 5 votes and Echo 4 votes and Echo himself wasn't even voting Gamma at that time. I feel this is just a too strong statement to do on a scum partner when he is probably about to flip. If Gamma flips red this is one the things where many people would look for.

I just think Alch and Gamma have been townreading each other too strongly, it looks by Alch's part more like townreading the potential mis-exe in order to keep his hands clean.

[Testarossa]

if, gamma's not happening, what about VOTE: egix?

There are 2 days left. I don’t think a wagon that isn’t already a large one is going to happen. What makes you think Egix is more viable than Gamma?

This is looking slightly more different. Don't think he would bother here, if Egix is town, but is instead rather interested to keep the major wagons together.

[Testarossa]

Anyway I will leave Una all the time he needs (and anyone else).

I also think Egix should explain why he thinks this setup has three scum and how a Alch/tris/Gamma team works. If he is town.

[Testarossa]

That dialogue

[Testarossa]

My problem with a 3p scum team is the way how D3 went down. If it would have been mylo they could have just won yesterday, the Ico kill proves that they weren't afraid of an eventual jk shot. In fact it was foolproof because Ico was townreading tris anyway and believed that the Commuter claim is town.

Instead they all did nothing and waited... for what? Gamma has been pushing NM's slot since the end of D1, he could easily have went back there, for Alch it would have been easy too, Egix was positioning himself to favour a NM vote over an Alch vote and it was my impression that Una also originally preferred NM over Alch? In contrast you could only count on me, tris and NM on voting Alch. It would have been so easy to get a NM exe through.

I just don't understand how tris as scum plays herself into a deadend where she has no choice but to go for Alch once a exe within the hood was due. And actually got the stone rolling against Alch.

[Testarossa]

Why did you choose to commute in N2 btw, tris?

[Testarossa]

Ugh yeah, meant it proved they were afraid, don't know why I came up with the negation. The point is, that I don't see two remaining scum, who are in a 4p poe after Alch's flip, killing off someone out of that poe. Sure, they only need one mis-exe anyway, but it's like betting everything on that one.

[Testarossa]

No, it wouldn't bring us anywhere.

I am around, tbh I am just waiting for Una to come up with his conclusion on Egix at this point.

I am not really convinced on tris being scum.

I will either go for Egix or, if we assume three scum, compromise on Gamma as he is always scum in such a scenario (I doubt tris/Egix open mylo with cross-bussing each other).

[Testarossa]

Was thinking about that kill as well, but tbh mine and Ico's reads were somewhat very similar. Like it was clear I will suspect in Egix and Gamma and have tris as town. The hood aside Ico suspected scum within Gamma and Egix and had you and more or less tris as town. I think he was a bit uncertain about tris because she didn't seem to townread skitter when she made her switch from Gamma to Echo due to skitter's reasoning. (to which tris didn't replied to Ico)

Mostly suspect that scum was too afraid of a potential clear/guilty by Ico's jk shot and that it would be too difficult to vote Ico out as he can postflood the thread if you go against him and can be kind of omgus-y, which fits the pattern of the other kills like Datisi and Nero more or less. Tbf that motivation would apply to both Egix and tris. I feel like Gamma would be less afraid about that, but I don't know him well enough, might be misjudgement of character by me.

[Testarossa]

Think about it - Ico had one shot.
If he had managed to land his block correctly last night (on the remaining scum who would be carrying out the nightkill), he could've saved himself anyway.
Meaning that it didn't matter who the scum would've targeted last night - Ico or otherwise - because Ico would'be been able to block the kill if he had targeted correctly.
So scum should've definitely killed the conf.town in you Testa, and then combated the potential "clear" Ico would've brought to the table.
Possible explanations including a theoretical 3man scumteam (= not an actual inno) or just theoretical scum!Ico (could've made me buy that).

So if there's only one scumster remaining, there was a genuine risk last night that Ico might've stopped the kill no matter who was the target, and the potential inno was never going to be as strong as an ACTUAL confirmed IC.

I mean I know what you are saying here, ultimately I don't really know either what scum's thought process was here. I don't see that many other differences between me and Ico besides his ability and playstyle.

Ultimately it wouldn't matter that much for scum, because one remaining scum needs two mis-exe within [tris, Gamma, Egix], while two remaining only need one. Although it's still my belief you wouldn't target Ico with two remaining scum, because it cuts off one potential mis-exe, which means betting everything on that one available mis-exe would be the only option. And what you said, of course.

What do you make out of scum's passivity on D3?

[Testarossa]

Btw I am around till the deadline, so I can at least definitely take care of the hammer.

These days that get resolved at the last second are so stressful.

I think NM should vote between Gamma and Egix the next time he is around here. Don't know about his online times.

[Testarossa]

Well, I am here and will be around for the next three hours. Question is if Una or NM are.

[Testarossa]

VOTE: Egix96

For the meanwhile.

Gamma would probably the safest vote, but at this point I don't know if we can get both Una's and NM's votes.

[Testarossa]

And there he is

[Testarossa]

Ah, crap. I am so sorry, Egix. Once you are in this tunnel...

Unless no one is trolling around for whatever reasons, I guess it's really only one scum left? All scum neighbourhood would be serious bs.

[Testarossa]

oof. This was a team combination I didn't really saw coming, but this explains the weird stalemate on D2 a lot.

gg scum

[Testarossa]

well not no one

most importantly not test <3

That salt in the wound. That's the first time I have been that far off with my read on someone since I started playing here. You somehow pushed the right buttons to me.

To think that the first two major wagons of the game were on 2/3 scum.