Mini 630: Council of Eville: Game Ovah!

[forbiddanlight]

vote: Dean Harper

. I think I'm getting to like that trend .

[forbiddanlight]

Oh no fun!

Unvote:Dean Harper; vote Strangercoug

for voting me for voting the mod. BWAHAHHA! WUT NAO!

[forbiddanlight]

And yeah, 3 people random voting the same person is a bit unusual. Statistically plausible, of course, if the votes are genuinely random, but still unusual.

Not really, since most votes in random voting aren't truly random, and I've found it common around here to see a 3 person wagon sprout up and go back down almost instantly. It's just part of the random stage to me. Anyway, goat seems to be jumping on a lot of people, but that could be his style. alvinz was very hypocritical in the "that was opportunistic...vote stays". Oh yeah, since random voting is kinda over.

unvote

.

[forbiddanlight]

EBWOP: For now I'm not voting since I don't see anybody being incredibly scummy. I actually buy Rage's looking for slips thing (considering I've done stupid plans on a similar vein before as town).

[forbiddanlight]

To be honest, SC, you look VERY OMGUSy right now. It sounds like panic in a way. I could be wrong, but it rubs me the wrong way.

FoS: STrangerCoug

. I would probably vote you if you didn't have a wagon. You don't need to die for your reactions yet, but they are noted.

[forbiddanlight]

The fact that you have now cast suspicion on every person that has voted you, claiming that a person voting for you because you are acting scummy is "opportunistic", sounds to me like you are trying to scare people away from voting you.

I think that is scummy.

I agree with this sentiment, but I disagree with the wagon. While SC looks scummy, the wagon that appeared on him looked worse, in my opinion.

[forbiddanlight]

L/A today. I'll take a look at the cases and probably vote sometime between tonight and tomorrow.

[forbiddanlight]

Guess I lied. This is about the millionth time my saturday plans have been cancelled. Allow me to mope for a few hours and I'll return to check cases.

[forbiddanlight]

Lynch all liars.

Oh pickles.

(Alright, it's been long enough, I'll look around and see if I should vote)

[forbiddanlight]

SC, I'd probably vote you for terminal ridiculousness if I hadn't seen you do the same thing before in an ongoing. However, given my QUICK reread (i.e not my usual 2 hour in depth summary and thought analysis of doom), I actually have to say I finally agree with the alvinz case.

vote alvinz

. I can't add much, but he seems to be panicking and trying to make too little of your points against him. SC is of note but that same ongoing gives me a feeling he just sucks as town (no offense). Also of note is it seems skillit might be attempting to cover for alvinz, but that was just a quick impression.

[forbiddanlight]

Um wow, nice. This has to be the lamest claim I've ever seen in the history of fail .

[forbiddanlight]

How is claiming what is essentially vanilla townie a lame claim?

Because I've both done it, and I'm used to claims being more dramatic

Why is this wagon not scummy, but the last one was? Your reasons against alvinz could also be applied to coug, so what is the distinction?

It's a well explained wagon. A lot better than the Coug one was. It also didn't spring up quite as quickly. There's more discussion than "oooh...vote SC".

[forbiddanlight]

Ok, I don't get why people can't see what Coug did, rather than one dumb post

I saw very much what he did. It's also very consistant with his horrible meta, from when I've played with him. I'd be more concerned if he started playing well .

[forbiddanlight]

What has alvinz done that was scummy, and worth a 5th vote when you were against wagoning on sc? I want to hear this from you specifically.

I reexamined the opportunistic claim. That was hypocritical. Strike one. Second, if you read his posts, a lot of it is redirection to SC. He's panicking rather than defending himself. Of course, to be fair, Coug OMGUS'd every last person on his wagon. So, the defense point isn't as good, except that I know Coug's meta a little bit. Speed of wagon factors into this for me as well. Also, downplaying Goat's accusations is a bad way to respond to them. I think every case should be taken seriously and fought on a logical level, not just dismissed with nothing. IT does NOT look good for Alvinz.

[forbiddanlight]

I however, didn't realize it was the fifth vote. However, I only vote when it's random time or I think someone is scum. Vote stands.

[forbiddanlight]

I am now. You've added more evidence. You aren't DEFENDING your points, you are redirecting off them. Seriously, if you have a real defense other than your attackers are scum, please present it. If I did miss it, just quote it.

[forbiddanlight]

I'm not offended because it is the unfortunate truth. The one game on this site so far where I've won as town, I got lynched on Day 1. Also, the one game on this site so far I lived to the last day as town, I made the terrible mistake of being biased toward one of the players based on his play, and the last Mafioso got clean away from me without my ever suspecting him once. So yeah, I still have a long way to go.

It's interesting to note that, for reasons unknown to me, I've yet to be NK'd outside of Meat World. Obviously, this will change—even if I keep ongoing games out of this like I'm supposed to, given enough time it will happen anyway.

You'll get better. When my first game is over, take a look at how horridly I played there. Heck, I still probably play bad town, just a lot better than that game. I'm being a bit harsh, I think. It's just my meta on you really isn't that favorable to your personal skill :S.

[forbiddanlight]

I'm still around. Having a little trouble getting into it. Can someone build a case on me to shoot down so I feel like I'm being loved?

[forbiddanlight]

Because if you FoS everyone, it is a meaningless action that shows nothing about who you actually suspect and why.

This. It's annoying. only FoS if you suspect someone.

[forbiddanlight]

OK, new question: What do you think of alvinz95 vs. Goatrevolt?

For now, I favor alvinz as scum if either of them is. Goat revolt brought some good points up. Now, he might just be really good at making cases to seem town and alvinz is just naturally overdefensive, but I'm not leaning that way.

[forbiddanlight]

Can you explain this? How can alvinz both be not defending his points and also be overdefensive?

Overdefensive meaning he's attacking everything as a "defense". Reactionary would have been better.

[forbiddanlight]

Personally, I believe that both acted scummy, but I am leaning toward SC for now because being a bad player doesn't change the fact that what he did was suspicious, and if you think it DOES excuse him, then you at the very least owe it to alvinz to consider it excusing him as well. Doing otherwise is inconsistent.

I think that I might have to get a meta on alvinz before I proceed with that. In support of this,

unvote Alvinz

I'll see about the meta in a few hours cause I'm going to be busy shortly.

[forbiddanlight]

How are the cases on those two identical?

In my opinion, they aren't, but cerb DOES have a point that since I've been clearing SC on a meta argument (well, not clearing, but not pressing), I should probably take a look at alvinz meta and see what that looks like.

[forbiddanlight]

How so?

I think it's scummy because it's trying to look townie on two fronts. One, encouraging discussion by dropping back a wagon, and two, by looking willing to lynch a scummy person. But they are contradicting each other, especially when done in the same post.

[forbiddanlight]

I anxiously await what Ghostwriter has to say. I also still want to see skillit take a stance on alvinz. He seems to be avoiding this issue like the plague.

Oh, what, so my eventually promised analysis doesn't have you jumping with joy? Or did I promise a meta read on alvinz? Ah well, how about I do both eventually? Either way, you don't give me any credit .

[forbiddanlight]

Sorry, I started my summary, got through two players, and got bored out of my mind. I'll be continuing it on and off as I can. I did do a meta check on alvinz. He doesn't seem to be so tunnelly in other games, rather, he was more willing to look around. Of course, that was my first meta check on anyone and I might have looked at the wrong things. I think my vote will go back to alvinz, but I still want to finish my summary first.

[forbiddanlight]

Damn...this is hurting. I got like one more person done in my summary :S. I'll try to focus more on it today after I catch up my other games.

[forbiddanlight]

I'm almost done, but let me just say this. SKILLIT! CONCISENESS! YOU HAVE CAUSED ME TO LOSE THE WILL TO LIVE AT LEAST 5 TIMES IN MY ATTEMPT TO SUMMARIZE YOU. I'd be tempted to give you a tl;dr pass if I didn't realize how much (at least in earlier posts) of it was basically meaningless.

[forbiddanlight]

It'll be up either later tonight or tomorrow. I'm having trouble motivating myself, and I hope like hell it's worth it.

[forbiddanlight]

At this point I'm waiting for FL's analysis, and for the lurkers to weigh in.

If things don't start picking up naturally, I'll start trying to generate additional discussion.

Yay, I get attention. Alright, honestly, today was rather horrible for analysis. I kinda was on and off all day and couldn't get a good continuous run. I MIGHT be able to tomorrow, but I have a lot of work to do for money and stuff. Monday stands a high chance of analysis, or tomorrow if I give skillit a temporary tl;dr pass.

[forbiddanlight]

But seriously, I'd like to know what she has to say about Goatrevolt, alvinz95, and me.

That I can do now if you like. Well, except for you, I haven't written your summary to analyze yet. Basically, I have to write a one page paper, an answer to a discussion question, and then do some math homework sometime today which is why I'm not seeing a good prognosis on getting the analysis done today. Really, I should have buckled down and done it yesterday...this tends to happen though. Once I get down to doing the analysis, it's nice, it just takes me a few days to stick with it, lol.

[forbiddanlight]

Do say what you have about the other two people. Worry about the rest when you have time.

Alright, fine. This is the summary post. A lot of tl;dr detailing my perception of actions this game. I'm specifically focusing on Goat and alvinz for now, so I'll only post theirs at the moment.

alvinz:

Random vote Rage. Calls SC's vote on Rage (for the scum question) opportunistic, but has his vote stay on Rage. Thinks we are still in random stage, Rage defended well enough. (note, vote still on rage). Pouncing on something measly is opportunistic no matter the stage. Quizzes goat on voting motivations, saying he needs to lay off the random stage and that being so quick to want to lynch is scummy. (I see this as deflecting). Says SC is tagging on to goat. Finally unvotes. Accuses SC of OMGUS, says he's done discussing the random stage move. Asks why it matters that he confirmed his vote. Says skillit is good at this game, votes SC for not liking his defense and OMGUS. Says his vote isn't opportunistic, cites OMGUS, Bad defense, history of opportunistic voting, and lack of consistency. Says he hasn't dismissed goat's questions. Didn't say all random moves were dumb, detracts from SC discussion, which supposedly goat isn't attacking. Claims matter of opinion on real fake wagon. Claims goat is giving advice to SC. Says goat is lingering on downplayed facts, opportunistic isn't scummy, states goat is inconsistent, implies we should look for partners even before a flip. Says by downplay he meant resolve. Continues to argue it wasn't serious when he confirmed his vote. Restates Coug's scumtells, saying goat doesn't find those scummy, or not as scummy as the what are the scum named/opportunistic argument with Rage and alvinz. Gunning for SC's lynch. Responds to goat's saying that his buereaucratic way of counting scumtells is bad by saying goat's way of judging scumminess is fucked up. Accuses SC of distancing. Claims council member, thinks he'll be lynched, says that Goat and SC are scumbuddies by their interactions. Doesn't understand why we can't see what SC did. Says Goat is hypocritical saying he wasn't going for a lynch when now he clearly is. Restates goat's with Coug. Keeps his vote on Coug, says he'll be lynch today, and that Coug needs to be lynched tomorrow. Says that his view isn't wrong, and says that goat is saying we can't deduce from D1. (strawman). Asks what skillit's question is, saying skill is hypocritical because skill says that it's bad for him to say he wants to be lynched, and votes him.

GoatRevolt

: Random votes SC, backs it up with signiture logic. Feels rage's question is too much trying to look like " I dunno the scum so I can't be scum", and votes Rage. Still wonders what the point of Rage's post was. Catches alvinz on saying Coug's vote was opportunistic, even though alvinz kept his vote on Rage. Counters alvinz claim that they were still in random stage, saying it's inconsistent calling SC's vote opportunistic. Also by pointing out his vote stands goes against alvinz belief we were still in random stage. Answers joon saying that he was pressuring alvinz, and you can pressure outside of random. Also, wait a sec means "Hold on, that's not right", not literally wait. Asks alvinz just how you get out or random stage. Claims to not be super eager to start lynching, says the Rage vote was to guage Rage's reaction, as well as the alvinz vote (for alvinz reaction), and that alvinz hasn't adequetely explained himself. The vote hop was logical because Rage at least explained himself (though he might not buy it), and alvinz was contradictory. Mostly wants discussion now. It's only page 2. His vote his both a push for scumminess and also a choice for lynching, but that takes place more so later game. Reiterates question for alvinz. Asks alvinz why he pointed out Coug being "opportunistic" if he wasn't being scummy. Also wonders why alvinz needed to say vote stands in random stage. Isn't done discussing random stage moves, the dismissal alvinz attempted being not pro town. Cites an old game, saying random stage can peg scum, and dismissing his concerns is not giving him good vibes on alvinz. Says it does matter, alvinz has been contradictory. Says people jumping on the Coug wagon isn't scummy, and Coug needs to stop OMGUSing, but doesn't feel Coug is the play based on meta. Says alvinz finally partially answered his question, says alvinz is still dismissive, and this is real discussion. Says alvinz is being more contradictory, says that alvinz is OMGUSing him for not attacking SC, and that he's trying to make connections before alignment reveals. Says Mini 601 and 604 show SC's meta and why he gets lynched. Says of course he's lingering on alvinz' downplays, because alvinz isn't addressing these concerns. Thinks alvinz is scummy, asks everyone about the famous opportunistic quote and confirm vote. Counters alvinz point that he's being contradictory because he goes with things that are scummy. There are places for FoS' and votes. Says that finding someone else scummy because they don't think someone you target is scummy is kind of OMGUS and also bad logic. Says that alvinz is saying that not buying alvinz explanation means that he's not buying anything. Also says it comes down to him finding alvinz contradictory comment to be serious, and alvinz defense is it was meaningless, despite it not seeming that way. Says alvinz is completely missing the point, that alvinz is essentially claiming that because alvinz scum list doesn't match goat's, goat is inconsistent, and this is bad logic. Says alvinz is measuring scumminess beureaucratically. Jokes about the L/A on forbiddan's part. Says skillit showed the bare bones of the story. Reiterates his case on alvinz. Says he wasn't being serious about the jokes about forbiddan at SC's FoS. Random phase != say whatever you want with no consequences phase. Saw what Coug did, says it doesn't make him scum. Wants to hear from lurkers, unsatisfied with alvinz response so kept his vote there. Wants to see a skillit stance. Wants Twigless to start posting. Explains why FoSing everyone is a bad move to SC. Asks how alvinz can be non defensive and overdefensive (to forbiddan). Asks how the cases on alvinz and SC are identical. Wants to see a stance from skillit, Ghost's views, and a prod on joon and Gojira. Saw skillit as avoiding a stance given his last three posts. Accuses skillit of fence sitting on alvinz. Wants replacements and lurkers to post, not many suspects other than alvinz. Says he misunderstood post 126 (skillit on alvinz). Says that alvinz is stupid to have us lynch SC after he dies, even if alvinz is town. Both could be town, it's not either/or. Says alvinz is missing the point, says that proving alvinz is pro town through lynch doesn't mean he's right. SC and alvinz alignments are unrelated. Votes skillit for going for an alvinz lynch because alvinz isn't useful town. Says that it's counterproductive to roll over for both sides.

[forbiddanlight]

Analysis post:

alvinz

: I really hate what I see here. There's obvious deflection to SC, attempts to dismiss valid questions rather than answer them, strawmans some of goat's arguments. This is not good. I'm probably going to vote him when I've fully finished my analysis (I don't want to tunnel and completely miss someone being scummier).

GoatRevolt

: He is a little dismissive of SC (well guess what, so am I), but so far he seems to be genuinely interested in finding scum. He quizzed Rage and got a somewhat satisfactory answer, moved to alvinz who started very evasive and still hasn't completely answered everything I don't think. Honestly, I lean heavy town here. The problem is Goat is pretty good at seeming town, so I'll definitely be doing my best to keep a running summary of him in my notes and see if I pick up anything weird.

More to come tonight or tomorrow .

[forbiddanlight]

3. Heavily favored Goat.

Because goat's been townie. I'm sure other people I see as townie will be "heavily favored". And, actually, several times you stated you downplayed his accusations, or otherwise tried to say you were done discussing them when you never even started.

[forbiddanlight]

sorry for the drop in frequency, i was camping and long story short, im stuck in tacoma for a few days (i live on the other side of the state) ill try to get on when i get to an internet cafe or something

Don't worry about it. I appreciate the chance to have a drop in the tl;drness . Oh, by the way, I'm actually getting the summaries done today. Yesterday was weird. Expect them between 2 and 7 hours from now (I have to cook dinner then go to choir practice in about 3 hours, so if it's not done then, it'll be a little longer)

[forbiddanlight]

I FINISHED SUMMARIZING SKILLIT! I'M SO HAPPY! Should be a half hour for the rest .

[forbiddanlight]

Alright, summary portion complete. I'll post it now, but I have to make dinner. I'll do my analysis portion about 3-4 hours from now. (I also have choir)

alvinz

: Random vote Rage. Calls SC's vote on Rage (for the scum question) opportunistic, but has his vote stay on Rage. Thinks we are still in random stage, Rage defended well enough. (note, vote still on rage). Pouncing on something measly is opportunistic no matter the stage. Quizzes goat on voting motivations, saying he needs to lay off the random stage and that being so quick to want to lynch is scummy. (I see this as deflecting). Says SC is tagging on to goat. Finally unvotes. Accuses SC of OMGUS, says he's done discussing the random stage move. Asks why it matters that he confirmed his vote. Says skillit is good at this game, votes SC for not liking his defense and OMGUS. Says his vote isn't opportunistic, cites OMGUS, Bad defense, history of opportunistic voting, and lack of consistency. Says he hasn't dismissed goat's questions. Didn't say all random moves were dumb, detracts from SC discussion, which supposedly goat isn't attacking. Claims matter of opinion on real fake wagon. Claims goat is giving advice to SC. Says goat is lingering on downplayed facts, opportunistic isn't scummy, states goat is inconsistent, implies we should look for partners even before a flip. Says by downplay he meant resolve. Continues to argue it wasn't serious when he confirmed his vote. Restates Coug's scumtells, saying goat doesn't find those scummy, or not as scummy as the what are the scum named/opportunistic argument with Rage and alvinz. Gunning for SC's lynch. Responds to goat's saying that his buereaucratic way of counting scumtells is bad by saying goat's way of judging scumminess is fucked up. Accuses SC of distancing. Claims council member, thinks he'll be lynched, says that Goat and SC are scumbuddies by their interactions. Doesn't understand why we can't see what SC did. Says Goat is hypocritical saying he wasn't going for a lynch when now he clearly is. Restates goat's with Coug. Keeps his vote on Coug, says he'll be lynch today, and that Coug needs to be lynched tomorrow. Says that his view isn't wrong, and says that goat is saying we can't deduce from D1. (strawman). Asks what skillit's question is, saying skill is hypocritical because skill says that it's bad for him to say he wants to be lynched, and votes him.

cerberus

: random vote Skillit. "meh" towards Rage's trap, states wagons occur outside of random all the time, it's good for getting reads. Discusses his random vote, then says Joon's (third) vote on skillit was odd, especially for someone complaining the game was moving too fast. Wagon's coug, saying OMGUSing is a scum tell. Says SC calling votes on himself "opportunistic" is scummy because it seems to be an attempt to scare people off his wagon. Asks forbiddan what is scummy about the SC wagon. Asks GW if the new wagon on alvinz was any better, keeps vote on SC. Asks forbiddan why the alvinz wagon isn't scummy, but the SC one was. Also asks her why claiming vanilla is lame. Sick and tired of "opportunistic". Askes forbiddan what alvinz has specifically done as scummy. Calls skillit scummy for creating a false dilemma. Counters skillit again saying that the false dillema persists, and that being incorrect doesn't mean you are lying. Leans SC for which is scummier between him and alvinz, notes SC didn't answer his own question, but is still kinda even on both of them. Says alvinz is wanting to die because he wants to cut off discussion.

fobiddanlight

: Votes the mod, unvotes mod, votes SC for voting her for voting the mod. Defends random wagons saying they often occur and lead nowhere. Unvotes cause random stage is over. Not voting, finds no one scummy, believes Rage. Says SC is being very OMGUSy which seems scummy, would vote him were it not for the existing wagon. FoS' SC. "You don't need to die for your reactions yet, but they are noted." Agrees that SC looks scummy, but the wagon looks scummier. Claims L/A, but rescinds it when her plans fall through. Says she'll get to looking at the cases now. Agrees with alvinz case, would vote SC for terminal ridiculousness if it didn't fit his meta. Feels skillit might be trying to cover for alvinz. Says alvinz vanilla claim is lame. Used to more dramatic claims, says alvinz wagon is better explained, slower, and has more substance than the SC wagon. Says she saw what Coug did, it was meta consistent, and would be more worried if he started playing well. Says the hypocritical claim, the attacking of SC (though SC did some scummy things), and downplaying Goat's case are all strikes against alvinz. Says she only votes when it's random or she thinks someone is scum. Let's her vote (5th on wagon) stand. Says that she's even more sure since alvinz continues claiming his attackers are scum. Says she's harsh on SC, but hopes he'll get better. Having trouble getting in the game, wants someone to build a case on her for her to shoot down. Agrees with goat that SC is annoying when he FoS' everyone. Answers SC saying that if either Goat or alvinz is scum, it's alvinz. Goat actually uses points, alvinz is just overdefensive. Explains overdefensive as attacking everyone. Reactionary would be a better word. Looks for a meta on alvinz, after unvoting him. Agrees the cases aren't identical, but says she should give alvinz the benefit of meta since she gave SC such. Sees veerus' view on Rage by explaining the way it looks is that he's going for two townie tells. Trying to lynch a scummy person, but trying to drop back a wagon for discussion. Talks about the summary analysis she's doing, says it's getting tough to stick with.

Ghostwriter

: Agrees with Goat and forbiddan that the wagon on SC is scummy. The ease and the echoing of the same point made it scummy. Counter's Goat's advice to SC being scummy by saying he's seen it in both mafia and townies. asks alvinz why Goat would attack SC while being opposed to the wagon without seeing a change in meta. Wants goat to link to games where SC has been lynched for similar moves. Is here, can't really post much that day. Gets back in 2 days explaining absence, then says that he doesn't think alvinz is mafia, so much as annoying. Says if he wants SC and Goat to be looked at, push a case, don't settle for being lynched to try to prove a point.

GoatRevolt

Random votes SC, backs it up with signiture logic. Feels rage's question is too much trying to look like " I dunno the scum so I can't be scum", and votes Rage. Still wonders what the point of Rage's post was. Catches alvinz on saying Coug's vote was opportunistic, even though alvinz kept his vote on Rage. Counters alvinz claim that they were still in random stage, saying it's inconsistent calling SC's vote opportunistic. Also by pointing out his vote stands goes against alvinz belief we were still in random stage. Answers joon saying that he was pressuring alvinz, and you can pressure outside of random. Also, wait a sec means "Hold on, that's not right", not literally wait. Asks alvinz just how you get out or random stage. Claims to not be super eager to start lynching, says the Rage vote was to guage Rage's reaction, as well as the alvinz vote (for alvinz reaction), and that alvinz hasn't adequetely explained himself. The vote hop was logical because Rage at least explained himself (though he might not buy it), and alvinz was contradictory. Mostly wants discussion now. It's only page 2. His vote his both a push for scumminess and also a choice for lynching, but that takes place more so later game. Reiterates question for alvinz. Asks alvinz why he pointed out Coug being "opportunistic" if he wasn't being scummy. Also wonders why alvinz needed to say vote stands in random stage. Isn't done discussing random stage moves, the dismissal alvinz attempted being not pro town. Cites an old game, saying random stage can peg scum, and dismissing his concerns is not giving him good vibes on alvinz. Says it does matter, alvinz has been contradictory. Says people jumping on the Coug wagon isn't scummy, and Coug needs to stop OMGUSing, but doesn't feel Coug is the play based on meta. Says alvinz finally partially answered his question, says alvinz is still dismissive, and this is real discussion. Says alvinz is being more contradictory, says that alvinz is OMGUSing him for not attacking SC, and that he's trying to make connections before alignment reveals. Says Mini 601 and 604 show SC's meta and why he gets lynched. Says of course he's lingering on alvinz' downplays, because alvinz isn't addressing these concerns. Thinks alvinz is scummy, asks everyone about the famous opportunistic quote and confirm vote. Counters alvinz point that he's being contradictory because he goes with things that are scummy. There are places for FoS' and votes. Says that finding someone else scummy because they don't think someone you target is scummy is kind of OMGUS and also bad logic. Says that alvinz is saying that not buying alvinz explanation means that he's not buying anything. Also says it comes down to him finding alvinz contradictory comment to be serious, and alvinz defense is it was meaningless, despite it not seeming that way. Says alvinz is completely missing the point, that alvinz is essentially claiming that because alvinz scum list doesn't match goat's, goat is inconsistent, and this is bad logic. Says alvinz is measuring scumminess beureaucratically. Jokes about the L/A on forbiddan's part. Says skillit showed the bare bones of the story. Reiterates his case on alvinz. Says he wasn't being serious about the jokes about forbiddan at SC's FoS. Random phase != say whatever you want with no consequences phase. Saw what Coug did, says it doesn't make him scum. Wants to hear from lurkers, unsatisfied with alvinz response so kept his vote there. Wants to see a skillit stance. Wants Twigless to start posting. Explains why FoSing everyone is a bad move to SC. Asks how alvinz can be non defensive and overdefensive (to forbiddan). Asks how the cases on alvinz and SC are identical. Wants to see a stance from skillit, Ghost's views, and a prod on joon and Gojira. Saw skillit as avoiding a stance given his last three posts. Accuses skillit of fence sitting on alvinz. Wants replacements and lurkers to post, not many suspects other than alvinz. Says he misunderstood post 126 (skillit on alvinz). Says that alvinz is stupid to have us lynch SC after he dies, even if alvinz is town. Both could be town, it's not either/or. Says alvinz is missing the point, says that proving alvinz is pro town through lynch doesn't mean he's right. SC and alvinz alignments are unrelated. Votes skillit for going for an alvinz lynch because alvinz isn't useful town. Says that it's counterproductive to roll over for both sides.

Gojira

: Random votes skillit, had PM issues (hence being late). Unvotes saying random stage is over, Rage feels noobish. Alvinz is a little too "agressive". 3 people random voting a wagon is unusual statistically. Says lots of post s in 12 hours, will process and post in morning (this was the 18th of July).

Joonster

: Random votes skillit, meta's Rage's comment, FoS' saying he didn't ask what the scum were in another game where it wasn't revealed. Un FoS' Rage, thinks the game is moving fast. Asks goat if he wants alvinz lynched or pressued since they are out of random stage. Leans latter, also points out Goat says wait a lot, and is the fastest moving player in the game. Unvotes, says RL has been hectic. Didn't count votes on skillit before random voting him, says he votes for silly reasons. Will do reread tomorrow (This was on July 16).

Rage

: Random votes Goat. Asks what the scum are called. States that it isn't given in the main post. Explains why Joon's meta was wrong, because the scum names were given in an offsite link. But, he was looking for a slip which his question, didn't get one, but noted the reactions. Unvotes, random stage over. Agrees with skillit on SC. Votes SC. Finds alvinz behavior odd. Asks him what the point of a random stage is except to look back on for clues? Doesn't find alvinz post meaningless, then says that he's in about 8 games, one he's modding, and will try to stay active. Fixes his last post about alvinz, saying he objects to alvinz avoiding goat, voted SC for pressure, and votes alvinz because he honestly suspects him. Dislikes alvinz trying to influence the lynch, asks if SC's FoS was to prevent something fishy from goat or his "weak sense of humor". Unvotes alvinz for discussion time. Argues alvinz claim that skillit is being hypocritical saying that nowhere did skillit say he wouldn't vote alvinz, and says alvinz should answer skillit's question.

skillit

: Random vote joon. Asks joon for proof he's Jessica Alba. Knows that the random vote on him was a joke, but seriously asks what "quash the skillit uprising" means. Doesn't buy Rage's claim for scum fishing. Votes SC for tattling, following goat, pointing out forbiddan voted mod, and voting alvinz for hypocrisy. Wants to see SC justify himself, and that SC is going with the flow too much. Sc's accusation that skillit's post was fluff is too dismissive. Asks SC is looking into players he finds suspicious is anti town, doesn't understand why posting things he thinks are off about another player is wrong. Asks if SC thought skillit was going for a wagon or trying to provoke discussion. If SC REALLY thinks he his misrepresenting SC, then enlighten him as to how. Monologue on the difference between intentional and unintentional misrepresentation. Says SC has been light on reasonings, should be last person to accuse of a weak case. Counters SC wondering where he explained what of skillit's post was fluff other than tattling. Says he gets the impression SC doesn't want to talk about it and that's what perks his ears. He'd rather see SC delve into why it's weak rather than claim that and call it done. Says the tattling appeared to be with the intent to cause a modkill, and due to the brevity of SC's play they have to look at unvoiced motives. OMGUS isn't OMGUS when legitimate points are brought up, asks SC if SC thinks this isn't worth discussing and if it were someone else, would SC's answers have been sufficient? Unvotes SC, wanted to get things going, not end the day on page 3. Play by play on post 22 (famous opportunistic quote). Originally, he saw it as alvinz saying the vote hopping was preying on something proven weak and would not follow in vote hopping. It went beyond this when GR questioned alvinz comment, and alvinz responded with the random stage comment. Says GR stated that this didn't make sense, why confirm the vote. Quotes a few more things, then calls out Goat asking if Goat's point was that this was real discussion, and alvinz brushing it aside as non real is scummy. Responds to a comment on his post saying he only had time for a summary and it was a precursor to the actual post. Responds to another comment saying that the vote hopping was his impression of alvinz statement, not what might or might not have actually been meant. Claims that it's a false dichotomy to say that not vote hopping would have been to unvote. Says alvinz calling SC out on jumping on a weak wagon but not moving your vote off that wagon is not inconsistent. Makes some comparison between a belief being called wrong being ridiculous. Argues against the idea that he's avoiding the alvinz issue. Weighs in on alvinz, initially felt the alvinz seriously thought goat's concerns were unimportant, but now it looks like he's trying to make them LOOK unimportant and he's panicking. Also, trying to end the day early seems scummy from alvinz. Defines opportunistic vesus bandwagonning. Is fine being called wrong, but not that a simple induction is flawed logically when it isn't. (OMG, 5 posts left! I'm almost out! I no longer have to kill myself!) Says that he sees Goat's point about possibly skirting the issue, said he got sidetracked. His stance is alvinz is scummy, not necesarily scum. However, feels that higher vote numbers need to be increasing certainty. We hadn't heard from several players, so no rush to end the day. Also, wants to hear why alvinz wants the day over. Says he finds alvinz scummier than SC, though SC was scummy, and doesn't know if both are scum. Eventually they'll have to guess on "pretty sure". but we aren't there yet. Votes alvinz due to the asking to be lynched, which is desperate on both scum and town side. We either lynch an anti town townie or scum. Acting like this won't make SC or Goat look bad since alvinz is begging us to lynch him. Wants alvinz to answer his question. Supports alvinz lynch because he basically refused to answer a simple question among everything else. Says alvinz actions say "Drop it or lynch me".

StrangerCoug

: Votes forbiddan for voting mod. Agrees with goat on rage. Says it's for the scum to know and everyone else to find out. Counters alvinz saying we found something to talk about. Asks if post 24 (about Rage's role in the other game) is legal, then rescinds the question saying he wasn't paying attention. Random stage ends when people vote for real reasons. The Rage votes ended random. FoS' alvinz for hypocrisy, unvotes rage. Believes goatrevolt, says it's too early to accuse people of tagging along. Says skillit's accusations are fluff, says he wasn't fishing for a modkill, votes Skillit. Says the reason skillit's post was fluff was because of legitimate misunderstandings. Says skillit is stretching the case on him for discussion. Says the tattling was incorrect representation. Says it's not OMGUS if the vote is for legit reasons. Thinks his reasons on skillit are legit. FoS' Rage for opportunistic voting. Says that if he FoS' for oppotunistic voting (Screw this, I'm gonna freaking abbreviate this OV). Anyway, FoS' for OV, alvinz should not have made another OV. Votes alvinz. HoS' cerberus for OVing. Reiterates the modkill point was fluff in skillit's case. Answers skillit, saying the case is worth discussing and skillit defended it well enough. Un FoS' skillit. Says he'd be willing to back himself up since he'd have the basic case if it were someone else. Feels his alvinz vote was legit, not OMGUS. Wants alv to explain why he had a "bad defense". Doesn't counter alvinz OV point saying so be it, not much to discuss page 3. Says he's not being inconsistent, that Rage only got an FoS and alvinz a vote because alvinz seemed to be ready to jump on the wagon with as weak a case as possible. HoS on cerb because cerb was being a brat about it. Counters goat saying once alvinz got on the wagon it was ridiculous. Applauds goat's thinking before acting on the meta. Points to his wiki for the meta. FoS' GR for lynch all liars on the GR/FL exchange. Argues alvinz distancing point saying that if alvinz would like to be lynched for not following through on plans IRL he can just speak up. Un FoS' GR saying he was making sure GR wasn't doing anything ridiculous. Agrees with FL that he's not that good a player. Says the FoS on GR was caused by a weak sense of humor and trying to prevent fishiness. Says he should throw and FoS at everyone for lurking. Only asked to get discussion going again. Asks about alvinz/GR. Says alvinz is scummy, GR isn't. Asks how rage's unvote was scummy (it was on someone with only 4 votes). Likes GW's case (though IIRC it was a case against lynching alvinz), and confirms vote on alvinz. Reiterates the points against the case on him. Wants to see forbiddan's analysis, a lot seems to get in forbiddan's way. Encourages forbiddan to release what she has on alvinz and goat. Mentions the panic OMGUS point and why it's bad again.

veerus

: Random Vote Gojira. Questions the mini bandwagon during random stage. Votes alvinz on the idea that a defense saying he wasn't serious is weak, everything is serious in the game. Agrees the SC's meta is similar to his play this game. Disagrees with skillit, pointing out what was odd about what skillit thought. Also says the summary without actual thoughts is scummy. Thinks skillit's thinking is flawed. Says that by saying SC's vote was opportunistic, it was bandwagonish. Says that calling a vote opportunistic on a wagon and keeping your vote on that wagon is inconsistent and scummy. Calls out Rage's unvote saying that trying to promote discussion while someone is only at 4 votes is scummy. Reiterates his question for Rage about why he unvoted. Asks if Styro is implying GR is scum since SC has followed him around.

Have fun.

[forbiddanlight]

And yes, forbiddanlight, you should be worried when I start playing well. I bet you everything I own that players that look really, REALLY scummy are simply terrible townies and that players that look really, REALLY townie are really excellent scum.

You'd lose that bet. I recently became acquainted with the too townie argument . Also, I was kidding .

Anyway, analysis tiem:

I already covered alvinz

cerberus

: Pretty good play, willing to ask questions, sense motives, etc. Also willing to change his mind, as he started to get off SC as time went on and alvinz proved himself scummier, reaching his current view if I read it correctly that alvinz might be scum trying to end the day fast. I lean townie

forbiddanlight

: First, I managed to spell my own name wrong :S. Second, I generally throw in this part of the summary for you all to analyze.

Ghostwriter

: Good call on the SC wagon (but I'm biased). Not sure I like the call on alvinz as much. It seems to be slightly indicting him while trying to say it's not precisely pinning him as scum so much as annoying, and then advises him. I think Ghost warrents a closer look if alvinz turns up scum. Not saying that he's precisely scum if alvinz in scum, just that his actions look slightly...covering. Still, I do lean slightly town unless alvinz does turn up scum, and even then only would consider looking closer at him.

Already did Goat

Gojira

: Hasn't been around enough to really analyze. He got replaced though, right? Either way, don't like how he flaked on his reread or whatever. Neutral due to not enough info.

Joonster

: Same as Gojira. Neutral due to not enough info.

Rage

: Early on, that seemed good actually. It's something I'd consider doing for slips. I mean, not perfect of course, and I can see the flip side of trying to distance from scummy knowledge. However, what I don't like is how readily he jumped on the SC wagon, and also that alvinz vote and then "OMG, we gotta discuss, alvinz is totally L-3" thing. He seems to be more going with the flow I think, and that's a bit scummy. Lean slight scum for now.

skillit

: TOO MANY DAMN WORDS! AS I SAID BEFORE! CONCISENESS IS YOUR FRIEND! Moving on to the actual meat of your posts...or lack thereof. I mean, you have points in each post, but they very quickly devolve off that to some argument that sounds pretty but really has little to do with the actual game. At least that was my opinion. I don't know if you always do this, but personally, I'm feeling the skillit wagon. You post for the sake of posting for the most part. I sense scum.

vote:skillit

StrangerCoug

: 33 posts, most of them one line or less (Only SC can make posts less than a line ). But, as I said, the wagon on him was rather unfair, and his panic is actually rather justified given the short time frame. Given his meta, it's typical StrangerTown. Buuut...I still won't let him off on that. I lean very slight town with the right to change my mind if he starts seeming more scummy than usual.

veerus

: Not enough of him, but what he does put out is solid. I like his observance of Rage's scummy move. Also the clashes with skillit gave me more material to base my thoughts that he is somewhat light on content and heavy on words. Honestly, I favor town on you. But post more, you are a good asset


There it is, enjoi.

[forbiddanlight]

forbiddanlight: On my first read, I thought she was staying under the radar and I had a neutral read on her. Looking at her posts in isolation, she looks like a townie. Maybe her infrequent and short posts gave me the wrong impression.

There's hasn't been much of interest to comment on. The SC wagon was a farce, and the alvinz debate has gotten alvinz in deeper and deeper trouble. I mean, I can't honestly post that much when everyone is saying what I'm thinking.

[forbiddanlight]

Ok, just one more thing, I don't like how forbid jumps in after Goat and suddenly she now likes the Skillit 'wagon', tattling along. FoS:forbiddanlight

regarding my contents, well there's nothing that I can say except that SC is my prime target and I don't post long stuff like forbid thus so yeah.

Don't be an idiot. I was planning that for awhile. I just finally got the time to actually do everything. Can you REALLY say that skillit hasn't been scummy? I mean, if you posted walls of text every post that maybe have 1 paragraph relevent to the game, don't you think people would jump on you?

[forbiddanlight]

FoS: Skillit for wat Mega said (btw who u replacing?). but I think SC is today's lynch.

Ok, just one more thing, I don't like how forbid jumps in after Goat and suddenly she now likes the Skillit 'wagon', tattling along. FoS:forbiddanlight

Furthermore...wtf is this?

[forbiddanlight]

you were 'planning' it? how would i know that. Like I said, I understand the case on Skillit that he posts alot of nothing but SC is scummy as hell, I don't understand how he could possibly be a townie.

Seriously, please read some of his past games. Read the games he links in his wink, read the games that Goat linked. Read the thread! What are your thoughts on alvinz?

[forbiddanlight]

opps (on ur post 239), i meant u jumped in after mega, got confused, sry.

I love how you completely missed my point. You pull an "I agree with mega, FoS Skillit"...then call ME out for doing that...even though I actually backed up my reasoning with much more than an I agree? Seriously, what are you trying? It's like the scumtell I once heard about...accuse others of doing what you yourself are doing.

[forbiddanlight]

I am having a really hard time caring what is happening in this game. I am just going to go off of forbidan's analysis (you should put more paragraph breaks in your analysis) and agree that skillit looks scummy. I really didn't like the whole false delimma he pushed on veerus. But I am going to wait for a vote count first.

Not a good plan. If I'm scum you are being my buddy by proxy, effectively adding another scum vote. I'm not, but I hate it when people just say "Oh, I like your analysis, I think this makes it a lot easier". To be fair, I understand not being in the game, but I'd prefer you think for yourself. As for paragraph breaks, might be a good idea. That's more the summary part. I usually do actual feelings in a single paragraph.

[forbiddanlight]

I meant I was going off of your summary of the game so far. I don't want to do a re-read.

Better than the last time I had to deal with people agreeing. Not the best, since I could have biased it, but still, it's better than I initially thought. (Seriously, in another ongoing, someone came in and said my summary and analysis would make scum hunting a lot easier...he got lambasted by a lot of people, including me). I mostly caution so I don't end up with a bunch of lazy townies is all. You SHOULD do a reread sometime, but I can understand coasting for now.

[forbiddanlight]

L/A today. And I'll give you a hint alvinz, accusing everyone who might vote for you as scum isn't going to actually find scum. Ya see, aren't you in fact copying what SC did, in a more indirect way?

[forbiddanlight]

Rage, I don't know what I leaned on your before (I think slight town), but you are going a long way towards destroying that. What are you DOING? Policy lynches are horrid. If I didn't think skillit was scummier, I'd vote you right now, considering how it relates to your other moves. I gave you the benefit of the doubt cause I thought your first move was mildly clever and pro town overall. I can't do that anymore.

HoS: Rage

for inconsistency, random movement on the alvinz issue, and overall non pro town behavior. I still see alvinz as possible scum, but Rage and skillit are definitely looking more to fit the bill.

[forbiddanlight]

Oh God...Styro wasn't Gimbo, was he? Geez, doesn't the guy know when to quit!? I still like my skillit vote, but would be fine switching to rage if he comes close to lynch. They both are rather scummy.

[forbiddanlight]

EBWOP: It was Gimbo *facepalm*

[forbiddanlight]

When was Styro banned this is news to me.

Recently. The offense was being Gimbo.

[forbiddanlight]

There are 3 votes on Rage. It takes 7 to lynch. Do you honestly think, even if rage isn't scum, that the scum will just pop onto the wagon the minute he hits 4 votes? And that's assuming 3 scum. Seriously, if Rage isn't scum, I think the scum are already on the wagon.

[forbiddanlight]

Since I'm selfish, and would like to hammah! just once, I'll make my vote last .

[forbiddanlight]

Hint: the answer is, "something really funny"

Still rereading, but I've decided that I'll be doing individual analysis posts (like forbiddanlight, but without the giant spammy recap post before it)

I usually include that because I want people to see what I read. If I have a wrong summary of actions, my analysis would be off. Course, it's not required reading, and I try to tell people that. The analysis is the meat.

[forbiddanlight]

Don't worry, I called the hammer. You won't see a vote on him from me til 6th is piled on .

[forbiddanlight]

How about we don't hammer or do anything of the like until we extract a claim and make sure we want to end the day.

We aren't going to get a claim. You can see that Rage is just trying to stretch the day by confusing us.

I'd prefer he not even get to L-1 until we're sure we're ready, especially given his recent comments.

Given the recent comments I'm very willing to oblige. This isn't jester mafia.

[forbiddanlight]

FOS: forbiddanlight How could it possibly be protown to cut the day short with promised analysis on the way? At least let me go on record with my opinions, even if you don't care what they are (maybe because you already know what Rage's alignment is?). I'm not asking you to delay very long, and the odds are Rage will still be the lynch after I say what I want to say. I'm 1/6 of the way done, and you wont have to wait more than 24 hours, I promise.

I'm fine with waiting for your analysis. Never said I wasn't. I took specific issue with how your phrased given Rage's recent comments. I also disagree we are going to get a claim. I just want to hammer for once .

[forbiddanlight]

OK, guys, I've only got SC and veerus left to analyze, but I'm going to put that off until later today since I should probably get some sleep tonight.

YAY! *walks around merrily with a hammer making knowing looks at Rage*

i.e., your (Rage's) defense sucks once again and that last part is clear redirecting. Or was that a defense?

[forbiddanlight]

If you are town, you aren't doing a good job of "exposing" those who are on your bandwagon. Your plan is counterproductive and I think at this point you should be lynched.

Agreed...but since sthar is so intent on getting an analysis done, we shouldn't vote him dead yet .

[forbiddanlight]

Which is, of course, why my analysis really wasn't scummy and has clear positions on everyone. And yes, I do rather hope people read the summary because it serves to remind people of the events that have taken place. If they don't want to read that then I assume they remember everything. It's rather convenient I think, and you can check other games I'm in to see I've done it this way. I think the noise argument is crap and you made more noise than I did with that last post. I don't trust you, and I'm sure as the game goes on we'll either see proof of actual intelligent play or we'll see your alignment isn't townie. (this to sthar)

[forbiddanlight]

Forbiddan: We can't trust your summary. I've seen no proof that you are either objective or cleared.

Also, if you'd like, I can do a full PBPA on you and show exactly how much of your posting has been irrelevant fluff. I fail to see how my post can be considered as such, given that only four lines were not direct analysis or the results of that analysis. Or are you saying that my points are irrelevant or flawed? If that is the case, please point out how so I can rebut you or correct myself.

Everyone: I have committed a grave sin. In my haste to get my analysis up and posted, I neglected to include the proper amount of evidence and samples, even though I criticized FL for the same. I apologize, and I'd be happy to answer any questions about my post to prove that each point is based on evidence.

To the first part, fine enough. You can still read it and draw your own conclusions. To the second, please do the PBPA so I can rebut or correct myself. To the third, I guess I might have done something similar, and will follow the lead of opening myself to questions.

Pretty much my thoughts exactly. FL spent a good portion of this day (and 10 days in real time) saying that she'll do a summary on everyone without really saying anything concrete in the process. Then in her analysis, she claims she'll likely vote alvinz only to vote skillit when she gets to him in her analysis. But that vote was well explained, so it's only a minor inconsistency. Her reply to sthar8's analysis post was basically "OMGUS, my post is better than your post". Not cool. In fact, you said that he made more noise with his post than you did. I disagree. He had to hastily go through the thread and post his analysis of the first three weeks of play, which he did within three days, while it took you nearly two weeks to do the same when the game could've been better served by your better analysis throughout the day instead. Also, and I just noticed this, you completely left Megatheory off your summary and analysis. Whether on purpose or not is yet to be determined, but the fact is, it's not there and such a blatant omission puts the quality of everything you said under question.

Actually, Megatheory had barely replaced in by the time I did the analysis. He hadn't said much (probably a post or two) before I had posted anything. I didn't have much to analyze. Now, as for my analysis taking forever, as much as I often deny, I have a life. I honestly thought that the times I was giving were accurate, and didn't account for several things, not the least of which being random life events. Also, I didn't anticipate as much, ah, what's the second most popular phrase today? Signal to noise from skillit. I honestly think if you were to lynch skillit, you'll find him to be scum. I also lean that way on rage, which is why I'm relatively compliant with the idea of his lynch.

Now, I admit my counter to your analysis was OMGUSy, and probably not very fair, sthar. I was under...a bit of stress at the time due to other events. I still say that I agree with goat that you are hiding some things in the way you accuse everyone, but I do withdraw any accusations on your alignment so far.

[forbiddanlight]

Forbiddanlight: I'll get started on the PBPA right away.

It may seem that I'm accusing everyone because, other than remarking on the strength of each player's reasoning, I omitted most of the town tells. I did this in order to avoid pointing out possible PRs or other good targets to scum.

I suppose that's one way to do it. I personally don't see any reason to omit anything because town tells are important too. Not as important as scum tells, but still there. If someone's town tells make them look like a power role, obviously the scum are going to pick this up without assistance. I personally see it as a benefit to balance pro town and anti town tells, at least for myself.

[forbiddanlight]

In other words, you're essentially claiming vanilla, and not a power role, correct? Okay then, with a claim out of the way, I feel comfortable with your lynch, but I won't vote unless everyone is ready to end the day.

Waiting on sthar's PBPA on me, and then I plan to hammer when the 6th vote is heaped on.

[forbiddanlight]

What's that?

Point by Point Analysis.

[forbiddanlight]

Like I said, I'd be looking at Goatrevolt (and forbiddanlight, too) in depth, but I need to reread in my other game. Maybe later this week.

Me too eh? I haven't the faintest why.

[forbiddanlight]

Like I said when I first analyzed you, at first I thought you were trying to stay under the radar, but later I thought you were protown. I think a second look at you would be a good idea, especially after you have posted more content.

Haha, sounds like fun. Have at it. If you want, that summary of my actions should be fairly unbiased. Course, I don't expect you to believe that .

[forbiddanlight]

That question was sarcastic... The viability of evidence does not change over time. evidence is just as valid 5 seconds apart and 5 days apart...

Yes and no. I actually see where SC is coming from, since it felt like some of the votes on him were merely pressure, and to have those fly so quickly is definitely something that might cause panic in a newer player. I mean, skillit's case was decent, but still not air tight. SC shouldn't have been wagoned so easily, even if a few of his actions were scummy.

[forbiddanlight]

Yes and no. I actually see where SC is coming from, since it felt like some of the votes on him were merely pressure, and to have those fly so quickly is definitely something that might cause panic in a newer player. I mean, skillit's case was decent, but still not air tight. SC shouldn't have been wagoned so easily, even if a few of his actions were scummy.

Problem is, I don't think StrangerCoug is a newer player. He's in tons of games, and although I don't know much about

him

, this is my first game with him, I do think that the more games the better, because as both Town and Scum you get to know a lot more about players' playstyles and role-tells. But, frankly, I don't know why he would be acting the same way after all of the games he has been in, so perhaps after all that time it has ultimately come down to an excuse to act scummy on Day 1.

It's POSSIBLE...but not something I really see as likely. I mean, the other games I played with him were recent, and this is his standard play.

[forbiddanlight]

Is it!? What I think it is!? Do I hear...a HAMMAH!? Sorry Sthar, hit me tomorrow, it's...HAMMAH TIEM!

unvote, VOTE:RAGE

!

(sorry, I've always wanted to do that)

[forbiddanlight]

This is lynch minus one. I'd say "claim or die", but I believe you claimed already.

He claimed vanilla basically. He will likely flip scum .

[forbiddanlight]

Interesting. It might be we have inactive scum, or possibly a doctor/roleblocker something. This is interesting indeed. As for yesterday, I apologize that my zeal to hammer ended up screwing us for that day. I honestly have never gotten to hammer before and let that blind me. I hope today I can play better and be of more assistance. I want to turn to

vote:skillit

due to yesterdays reasons. This is subject to change based on responses to what I said in my summanalysis.

[forbiddanlight]

Before I say anything else, vote: forbiddanlight. I hate the speed at which you hammered Rage, and you did not allow him the chance to explain his thinking when I put him at L-1. Denying the town information like you did is scummy.

Simulpost. I promised that I'd hammer, and Rage said everything he was going to. He claimed, if you recall, and he made his supposed defenses. What you are doing here could be considered scummy (trying to push an easy lynch)...but that feels OMGUSy, so I won't push it.

[forbiddanlight]

No he did not. The post before you hammered, I specifically accused him of accusing me of being opportunistic with my FoS on him when HE SPECIFICALLY SAID he wanted more people to vote him—he contradicted himself. If you can find where he defends this, I'll unvote you, but not before then.

Guess he did. In which case we follow lynch all liars. Guess your vote is sticky.

[forbiddanlight]

All in all this sems less like an attempt to do the town good and hunt some scum than it looks like a "zomg dont look at me" triade

Nyeh, wrong, but I forgive it since I see the point

- Why are you taking something Sthar said and claiming I said it?

Nope. I'm claiming you have high signal to noise ratio, not that you said I did

Later you claim that a lot of my posts are not relavent to the "actual game" - do you mean that a disproportionate number of posts or do you mean average percentage per post? Also can you help me out by defining the parameters of topics that are considered within the boundries "actual game" topics?

Actually, it's percent content in the posts. And mostly the stuff about how belief isn't claiming fact and the various logical theories you were proposing that seemed irrelevant.

Yesterdays reasons were largely "/follow mega" Did you not already admit that you were just saying "i agree with mega /hoponwagon" only adding a few minor points?-those extra few reasons were my inconcision and the slightly tangential nature of my personality?

I love how you not only linked the post you are blatantly misrepresenting...but you blantantly misrepresented. You'll notice I said that I WASN'T following mega, but that other person was who was accusing me.

Alas, inconcision is my personal nemesis. I am working on it, but how is it scummy?

Signal to noise again. You can say a lot of pretty things, but most people won't read all of it. Tis the same complaint I get about my analysis posts. It gives you cover since most people won't plow through it. I was half a mind not to until I kept noticing some repeated points in the same post as well as irrelevant tangents.

Perhaps it is our posting style alone that has created this rift. you have only 4 posts longer than 3-4 lines (and a big deal made about them as far as how much work they were for you)I have closer to 20 and get all excited when they are short. You rapid fire off posts that i see as lacking insight and actual justifications; i see just empty claims. i however post about 1/4 as often but see my posts as more valid, justified, and more insightful; you see whatever it is that you see when you read my posts.

I wouldn't have issue with your long posts if they were all content. Like Goat? He has a lot of long posts too. They all are full of content though. I can see taking issue with my short posts, but that's how I play. I'll post a lot but they'll be fragments. It's just the way I think, and it ties together when you look at everything I say. Honestly, before I analyzed you, I fell in the trap of thinking lots of words meant pro town and didn't pay you as much mind as I liked. My summary/analysis showed me different, and I enumerate those points. I can do it PBPA style if you like as well.

Sorry, but I think my vote stands since you are trying to countercase me it seems at worst, and at best are just using words as your defense again. Way too many of them.

[forbiddanlight]

I'm still pissed off about Forbiddan's hammer, but I guess there's no use crying over spilt blood. Or maybe that's the point of this game, I don't know. Either way, I don't think that is suggestive of Forbiddan being scum. I'd actually argue that it's the opposite.

May I ask why? Hopefully it isn't WIFOMtastic, but I'm curious why it helps make me look more clear?

[forbiddanlight]

@forbiddanlight:: What specifically makes you think Skillit is scum? What particular reasons from yesterday stick out for you?

Most of the posts I read of his had at least a paragraph that didn't really have much to do with the game except maybe tangently. Also, the alvinz thing was a bit weird, but I think it's somewhat explained. Mostly it feels like he went from scummy isn't necessarily scum to voting him based on his reluctance to answer a question. Which is fair enough, just feels weird. Mostly it's the posts that had portions without bearing on the game. And yes, a little bit of gut.

[forbiddanlight]

lets talk about my so called "blatent misrepresentation" because is much closer to an "accurate representation". if you "backed it up with more than an i agree", than an i agree was absolutely part of the statement. so to say that your statement was an i agree +a few points is absolutely valid and you sir are the mistaken one.

Actually, no, it's NOT implicit that I used an i agree. It's implicit that the accuser used an I agree, and my case was much more than that. I'd suggest laying that point down since it's not gonna cut dice and makes your overall case weaker.

belief isnt claiming fact? what are you talking about? I cant believe this needs broken down again.
i said i had opinion A.
I was told i was wrong.
I explained how that cannot be.
it was a very quantified discussion about a very limited topic base.

And it had almost nothing to do with the game

do you really think i used too many words in 389? honestly? really?? how am i counter casing? what else am i supposed to us if not words? picutres?.wav files? You are literally putting me in a corner where NOTHING i say matters. if i dont respond im lurking. if i do im too wordy.

Maybe I was being harsh there. It still seems you threw in some unnecessities.

I'd like to hear more from GhostWriter and Jshark, they were quiet in D1 and yet both managed to contribute to Rage's lynch. Also, sthar8's PBPA on forbiddan would be nice to see right about now as she is still one of my top suspects.

why?

[forbiddanlight]

(am I the only one that just glazes over whenever I try to read skillits posts?)

I think you can tell not

No, I simply didn't expect her to hammer so fast. Generally players will make sure we're ready to move on. I had no issue with her wanting to hammer, but I did have issue with the quick end to the day.

I speed hammered quickly because most of you are chickens when it comes to taking scum out. I thought rage was really scum. I was wrong, and thusly will learn from this and be a lot...slower to hammer should I call it again. I understand disliking it, and I'll not be so...hot blooded next time.

[forbiddanlight]

27: not done with the summary yet. Skillits posts are too long. Would be more likely to not read them if there were more content (?). Noise

This is the main thing, and that's because if they were more contentful, like Goat's, there wouldn't be as much reason to have to poke through every word, and I was getting tired. It's a flaw, and could be taken as scummy.

Now, overall, this post has me with a fairly good signal to noise ratio, with some scum signals, some town signals, and some contradictions. To be fair, I always reserve the right to change my mind on things, and that may be a couple of the contradictions. That's a good analysis though. Can you isolate what you have questions about most so I can answer them?

[forbiddanlight]

I'm kind of glazing over the whole skillit/FL argument. They have both been very verbose in this game with very little content, relatively speaking. FL's accusations, to me, are like the pot calling the kettle black.

I'd like to hear more from GhostWriter and Jshark, they were quiet in D1 and yet both managed to contribute to Rage's lynch. Also, sthar8's PBPA on forbiddan would be nice to see right about now as she is still one of my top suspects.

why?

Why what?

Why am I one of your top suspects? And also, my verbosity is a bit different than skillits. I try not to hit you all upside the head with it at once. Since (most of) my posts are relatively concise, you can seperate out scum tells easier. This is much harder with skillit, and I can't help but feel that's intentional.

[forbiddanlight]

Yes, but from what I remember about yesterday, forbiddan's suspicions had more to do with Skillit's writing style than anything actually scummy. That trend seems to be continuing today. That's a bad reason to suspect anybody. This is one of the reasons why I want to take a closer look at forbiddan. I haven't been able to yet.

If there is a meta that shows skillit to post similarly, then I'll consider backing off. Can you provide any completed games to assist me with that, skillit?

[forbiddanlight]

Yes, but from what I remember about yesterday, forbiddan's suspicions had more to do with Skillit's writing style than anything actually scummy. That trend seems to be continuing today. That's a bad reason to suspect anybody. This is one of the reasons why I want to take a closer look at forbiddan. I haven't been able to yet.

If there is a meta that shows skillit to post similarly, then I'll consider backing off. Can you provide any completed games to assist me with that, skillit?

Can you demonstrate that rambling is a scummy action without relying on a meta? Otherwise, you are accusing him of being scummy because he is more verbose than you would like.

I can say, but I don't think I'd be able to effectively demonstrate. Essentially, the idea is you throw enough information at the town so that they'll only skim your post, and for the most part agree with it because of the mindset that the more you say the more likely you are to be town due to slips and such. For the most part I find this true...unless the more they say is all in a long post that's semi difficult to read. Most people are here to play a game, and while eventually they'll plow through long posts if suspicion is cast on someone, they'll usually try their best to get by by skimming, which is perfect for scum. But, if this is his natural playstyle, then my main case is basically shot, and I'd just have to FoS for the weirdness on alvinz and such.

As for you SC, I still say you taking him to L-1 when there are other ways of expressing suspicion was foolhardy, but I also agree my quick hammer wasn't that intelligent either. But, if that's your case against me, I really can't defend it. Yes, I hammered. Um...am I supposed to deny that or something?

[forbiddanlight]

(which we were clearly not)

Sure wasn't clear to me. I saw the votes piling on and everyone was done with Rage

unless he is her scumparter.

Love that little sneakiness. Already decided I'm scum?

ts worth mentioning that such a heated argument based on such a weak case could be an example of two scum distancing.

Once again with the "Oh, she's scum"

No, you're supposed to explain it, preferably with something other than an admission of fault and an appeal to ridicule.

I said I'd hammer. I figured it was obvious I meant first chance I got so that someone else wouldn't take it.

because it shows that you might not understand how serious of a mistake the hammer really was

This is a bullshit argument. If Rage had been scum no one would be giving me shit today about it

FL: Before my analysis, you had a 3:4 Noise:Signal ratio, and Noise posts made up 44% of your posts. In addition, this is only examining topical relevance to the game, not the extent of your reasoning or the validity of your arguments, both areas in which I would expect to find additional noise. How does almost half of your content being irrelevant seem "fairly good" to you? And how can you justify attacking others on similar reasoning?

It isn't over half my posts anymore, now is it? I've been sending off signal for quite awhile. Get unstuck from that point.

As for your comments regarding a meta on Skillit, I just had a brief discussion with SC not too long ago about the dangers of meta. In addition, Skillit's post history proves that this is his second game here, so any "evidence" that you might find in his other posts is not significant for the purposes of determining a pattern, since he hasn't had time to demonstrate a consistant playstyle.

Well, that sucks. I was hoping I could either give up the case because it wasn't going anywhere or that I could press it further. So much for that. I'll stick with what I have

Today you say things like "most of you are chickens," like there had been some kind of disagreement as to whether Rage's lynch was the correct one. This is a straw man argument, since no one had expressed any thoughts to that effect, and Rage was clearly playing poorly enough to gather a majority of votes

So...what's the issue again? If you say the town was ready to lynch rage here...yet claim in another part of this post the town wasn't...which are you with?

Why did you feel that you had the right to choose when to cut off discussion?

As megatheory said, my vote was all but on rage. I just wanted to hammer for once. SC pushed it.

Its pretty clear that it would be an advantageous move for scum to quicklynch a townie and cut off all discussion, especially if they thought they had a defensible position for the next day.

Suppose you could argue that. But I stand by I promised the hammer and delivered, and that if rage HAD been scum you wouldn't be giving me shit today. As someone put it best, HAMMERING IS NOT A SCUM TELL

Now, you convoluted this case at several points, contradicting yourself in the same post at the area I pointed out. I realize I skipped around, but it felt easier to process that that way.

So, I ask you, sthar. Was the town ready to end the day or not? And can you really say SC is scot free when indeed I promised a hammer? Maybe I should have specified I was going to do it when I got the chance in case someone else decided they wanted to take it. Most of the people who have played with me before should realize I'm impulsive. I realize many of you haven't, so I guess it wasn't obvious what I was going to do. Either way, I stand by my hammer, and my vote.

[forbiddanlight]

Neither one of these is an excuse. Have you ever heard the saying that haste makes waste?

Haste has also won me several games, and not acting has lost me several. I like my impulses. I'm right eventually.

Not in and of itself, no. It's the circumstances, however, that make it a scum tell.

Perhaps

Something seems off here, but it's gut.

You're right, upon reread it seems like I don't feel convinced on that case but feel the need to have a case anyway. What I really meant though was I don't like the flimsiness of my case and would rather drop it, but am convinced skillit is scum, so refuse to.

One, way to dismiss what I feel is a legitimate concern. Two, this is WIFOM.

It's WIFOM, but it's still true. I'm getting all the shit for the Rage thing just because I hammered, after RESERVING the hammer.

No I did not.

Oh, so bringing Rage to L-1 wasn't pushing me to hammer? I deliver on my promises.

Isn't it amazing how much easier it is to understand something when it's explained clearly the first time around?

Maybe so. Not sure I understand your point.

Vote: forbiddanlight again.

Thanks again . Who wants to reserve the hammer on me if this keeps up ?

[forbiddanlight]

How about answering the question instead of playing "pass the blame." I've already demonstrated that I'm not going with the "SC for scapegoat" campaign.

What question?

You missed the point completely. The point is not that you hammered. The point is that you hammered at a time when it would be advantageous for scum to do so, with no real explanation. Your defense on this point has consisted of pointing the finger elsewhere and downplaying the severity of the potential consequences. The whole "because I felt like it" argument sounds like scum that doesn't think she needs a real defense.

That's cause I don't need a "real defense". I'm also not scum. Point out the "severity of the consequences" oh wise one

No, it most certainly wasn't. The reaction to your hammer bears this observation out, and your mention that my analysis on you would have to wait implies that you were aware of the immediate consequences of your actions.

K, so, the town was ready to lynch rage, but not to end the day...yeeah. And yeah, I was aware you wanted to do your analysis. I wanted to hammer. So I did. You got your say today.

Of this, I can. He had reason to believe that you would at least pretend to do what was best for the town, and there was no logical, pro-town reason for your actions, therefore he couldn't forsee them.

And what's the scum reason? I'm impulsive. I can't put it any more clearly than that

So rather than risk someone else hammering before you got a chance to, you decided to risk the possibility that someone with important info to give us would be NK'd? As I've said before, meta is very weak evidence, as it is easy to manipulate and hide behind.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! If anything "important" were up, it would have come up already. It also didn't come up today. I think this is your weakest point.

As I have said, I'm very close to voting you at this point. The one doubt I have is that goat seems very protown and logical and also convinced of your innocence. Therefore, I will withhold my vote until goat presents the reasoning behind his comment that your hammer is an argument for your towniness. From goat's previous posts, I have a strong hope that it won't be a WIFOM defense or a variation of the "too scummy" argument.

Nyeh, your case revolves around my hammering too quickly, and some obscure standard of signal to noise. I'm here to play a game. If I add noise, sowwy. So, if all you have is that hammer, I don't think you'll get to stick. I don't really have much defense of the action either. Sowwy again. Impasse. I'll discuss it as long as you like, but I'm sticking to my guns.

[forbiddanlight]

Were you not paying attention when I accused you of denying me information by hammering Rage when I didn't want him dead just yet!? The less information the town has, the better off the scum are.

But, I missed that when I hammered. I guess I should have clarified. What's the scum reason since it's obvious I'd get crap for it today? Scum try to stay out of the limelight (And yes, this is WIFOM)

I believe my case on you is even less than this, but I still think it's solid.

I disagree, but I'm the target.

Do me a favor and get real.

I am real. Anything "important" that he supposedly was looking for doesn't appear to exist.

This is a straw man. The town was convinced that Rage was scummy; if they weren't, they wouldn't have voted for him. However, one can be convinced of scum and still not want to end the day just yet.

Ok, so why did they let him get so close to lynch if they didn't want to end the day? I really thought Rage was scum, and my hammer would flip him as such. I was wrong.

*faints from the epic fail of this post*

Nyeh, you've done worse, I do believe. But we aren't allowed to discuss ongoings.

[forbiddanlight]

Defending the undefensible. Seems whenever I do end up suspected I end up in a situation like that. Im downplaying your points because there's no way to defend them. I also personally don't think they are good but the town disagrees. I mean, what do you expect from me here? I'm telling the truth about my motives. I don't care how many "logical fallacy" claims you throw at me. I've given my defense. I want to suspect you of being scum, really. But I know it's OMGUS, and I feel it's probably wrong. Which is what pisses me off more since you are going to railroad a repeat of D1. Without any information since I can see agreement that my actions were scummy.

When I started the debate, I was not convinced of anything, but FL's responses and refusal to mount a logical defense

Well what the fuck do you want then!?

You spent nearly the entire day in D1 claiming you'd do a summary/analysis on everyone (despite you seemingly ALWAYS being at the computer). Then when you finally do it, you don't even do it correctly and fail to mention all the players.

Hmmph, not really. I was in and out and couldn't complete a good analysis. Also the fact that when I promised it the "player I missed" wasn't there. And also I tired of it quickly.

Then you OMGUS sthar8's analysis where he (correctly) calls you out on the high noise to signal ratio. Sure you've improved since but it doesn't excuse your earlier behavior. By my rough count, going by sthar8's PBPA, nearly 40% of your posts were noise.

Can't defend this. Ceded

On top of that, at least half of your "signal" posts have been a part of a rather verbose exchange with skillit in which neither of you really have a good case on one another. In fact, judging by your posts, you've barely considered anyone else as scum, choosing instead to zero in on skillit and throw stones at him from your glass house. And no, your posts aren't really easier to read than skillit's despite your own claim that they are.

Well, I'll say what I said in my very first game here. When skillit flips scum and I flip town, I reserve and i told you so. It's annoying, I know, to have to deal with assertations like that...but I'm right.

The only real departure from this tunnel vision came when you said that Rage seemed equally as scummy as skillit to you, based on nothing but my own reasons (which started the wagon rolling), and that you wouldn't be against his lynch. Then, at approximately the same time as you initially called the hammer on Rage, you also dropped this gem to cover your ass:

I do believe it was more than that, but you probably contributed. I'd rather see you prove this.

Despite being suspicious on its own merit, this statement is also inconsistant with your D2 actions as Rage did turn up town and yet you're still zeroed in on skillit.

YAY! BULLSHIT POINT! I WAS WORRIED YOU WERE AIRTIGHT! HAHAHA, Rage != skillit. The scumminess of one is NOT dependant on the scumminess of the other! I never SAID such either.

(sorry, felt good to have a point I could defend)

Why did you feel that you had the right to choose when to cut off discussion?

Cause I called it? This is a loaded question, and you know it. Looks like you play with logical fallacies too

Then there was the open discussion between Mega and Skillit, and Rage's discussion of SC. That's 6/12 players who were not ready for the day to end, even though three of them were voting Rage.

Well, I didn't realize that, and I probably didn't care enough since I hate days that go on forever. One of my pet peeves. I actually missed most of these interplays, and I hold that they should have told me to hold the hammer. But, it's done now. I can't really defend that except by ignorance which can't be proven either way.

Ad Lapidem through sarcasm, but since you asked so nicely, you cut off any important info Rage may have wanted to give us (like who he suspected), and opened the potential for a scumkill which would deprive us of something important (for example, Skillit-scum could have NK'd Mega to cut off the conversation they were having, or you-scum could have NK'd me to prevent the posting of my PBPA, or panicky GW-scum could have killed Mega for being suspicious of him). The apparent stroke of luck we've had in no way diminishes the risk.

Fine, point ceded, I fucked up. I mean, what do you expect me to say?

In addition, my case on you is not limited to the scummy hammer or the irrelevant noise. I can also cite your hypocritical patterns of suspicion, your stated disinterest in scumhunting early on, your dismissal of valid points for weak reasons, your scapegoating of SC, or your buddying behavio

Show me these "hypocritical suspcions" Cause I SURE as fuck don't see them. Stated disinterest in scumhunting though? Show me this. Buddying behavior my ass. Basically ANYONE who agrees with anyone could be said to be buddying by your implied definition. The dismission of points...well, I say your points are weak. But whatever.

[forbiddanlight]

This is hypocritical.

How so?

One, how do you know that skillit is scum? Two, this looks a lot like an appeal to authority to me.

Intuition. I know I'm right because I'm right. It probably is an appeal to authority or whatever you say.

I'd ask why it seems like you have to be told everything, but I'm that type of person too. The failure to pay attention to what's going on is not an excuse, though.

When I care, I don't. This game has reached my "My god it's dragging on forever with not enough action" threshold. It's getting harder to care, but I'm still trying.

Be careful with pessimism.

Well, I could be calling for my lynch. At least I'm not that fargone :p

One problem with calling it a loaded question: you DID cut off discussion.

Still loaded. The point of a loaded question is to make it so no matter how you answer it validates the asker's view point. Well, I think everyone here knows when it's asked like that, no one has the right to. The follow up is very obviously "So why did you do it?" *dead silence* and then a lynch.

*faints from epic fail again*

Why argue a point that can't be argued? I mean, what, am I supposed to say "WEll clearly they aren't" when there is proof right there? But, you see, the trick is, you really can't go anywhere with it without supporting evidence. It's a safe point to cede, to be sure, but also cedeing it is the only right move, since I really can't deny it, and it's rather difficult to defend. My noise to signal ratio is a bit high. It tends to be no matter my alignment. A lot of the noise mentioned is me delaying my promise, guess I should be sorry for trying to keep you guys updated as accurately as I could? Whatever.

Is it necessary to swear?

Well, not necessarily, but it sure made me feel better ^-^

I hate this. Refusing to defend yourself is scummy. If you think your actions are legitimate, prove it. If you think the case is untrue, prove it. Just don't dismiss a case on you claiming it doesn't apply to you (unless, of course, it doesn't—if I were to present a case against you that "all men are thieves", it would be correct to say it doesn't apply to you since you are not male).

I'm not refusing per se. I'm just saying most of my actions are indefensible. I'm trying in whatever ways I know how but they aren't satisfactory. At some point you have to give up because it's an unfun spiral.

[forbiddanlight]

There are a lot of unanswered questions about Rage thanks to you, and there may damn well be a lot of unanswered questions about you thanks to sthar8 if he hammers you the same way you hammered Rage.

I'm not close to hammer though. I'm like, what, L-2, L-3? I don't think sthar will hammer before Goat weighs in.

But you know what I'm wondering about? Why goat HASN'T weighed in despite posting in several other games throughout this exchange.

[forbiddanlight]

EBWOP: Actually, I forgot what post you were responding to with hypocritical. Well, actually, not as much as you think since I was ignorant of the questions around rage.

[forbiddanlight]

Well, I figured part of it was meta. But, basically, point one was one of my points articulated in a much better way. Course, the other reasons might sway you anyway.

[forbiddanlight]

This is also an indicator to me that she didn't plan any defense past that first line, meaning that she didn't anticipate any real trouble, and that she thought we would all buy the defense. If you were scum, and you didn't think you would get any heat from hammering a townie, wouldn't you go for it?

Here's the problem. I never plan defenses. I didn't even plan that. Megatheory basically gave it to me. I went into today not expecting the hammer to matter like at all. I also am horrid on the defensive. I'm not saying that's an excuse, but something to bear in mind if and when I flip. I'm really not sure what you are after, but I do hope you look closely at the people who are "Half a mind to vote me" coattailing you and SC. To be honest, I feel SC is playing his normal pro town game. I don't know about you, you could just be pushing the lynch, but my gut says much as I would love to have you lynched, and see you flip scum, you aren't the play. I stand by skillit no matter how weak everyone sees my reasoning.

[forbiddanlight]

How is this a bullshit point? You can't "defend" a point by simply saying that you did.

Your statement specifically stated that if Rage isn't scum (which he wasn't), then scum are already on the wagon. At the time of that post cerebus3, megatheory and myself were on the wagon. Why haven't you quizzed any of us? Why are you so stuck on skillit?... don't answer that, I've seen your reasons.

Bottom line is that your statements and actions are contradictory.

Well, guess what? I've been rather busy defending this case against me, see. And I haven't had time to look back at you guys, and was actually planning to after cerb's comment on how he could get on my bandwagon. Furthermore, skillit is scummy in my eyes no matter how weak you think my points are.

I didn't give you anything. I think both you and SC are equally responsible for the quick hammer. After yesterday, I thought at least one of you two were scum. I thought it was unfair for SC to pass the buck completely onto you and scummy to vote you for it. That doesn't mean you didn't need to defend yourself.

Well, to be honest, I didn't feel like I had anything to defend against when I walked into this day. I'm doing what I can but no one need make the mistake I prepared any defense whatsoever.

Now, another thing that piques my curiosity is alvinz. Why are you voting SC? Remnants from yesterday? (which are understandable, I mean take a look at my vote). To be fair though, I feel SC has proven himself more townie today than before though, whereas I don't feel skillit has.

[forbiddanlight]

FL: You may be busy defending yourself now, but during the first two pages of the day you had enough time to continue your attacks on Skillit, despite the inconsistency veerus pointed out.

Not really. SC got on me immediately. You joined shortly after. I went to skillit because I still feel he's scum. I'm willing to reread the others and see if my yesterday conclusion seems to hold true...provided you don't call me out on "deflecting". cerb in particular caught my eye by the "I'm willing to jump on the bandwagon" comment. I'll work on a fuller reread if you can promise posting my finding won't be made deflection in your eyes. Or anyones, actually. Because if you aren't willing to give me that, you've already decided I'm scum and my opinions aren't of worth. I needn't waste my time then and hope it's telling of some people's alignments.

[forbiddanlight]

I am very sorry, but I cannot continue this game. I'm still trying to find my rhythm, and it seems I'm being pointed towards strictly themed games. I must request a replacement. Once again, sorry for the inconvenience.

I've had to do this once too. I'm of the opinion it's better to step down of your own free will rather than force the mod to do it. Thanks for having that much courtesy at least.

[forbiddanlight]

Alright, that's fine. I tend to get the deflecting argument whenever I bring up anyone else while under suspicion, so I've basically been shown not to do that, even though I wasn't shown why. Well, now I know. Fine, I'll look at cerb who indeed caught my eye. Actually, everyone on the Rage wagon.

[forbiddanlight]

Alright, here are some quick and dirty impressions of those on the Rage wagon:

Those I find unscummy, and likely town:

Goatrevolt
Again, nothing to stick on him. He's well reasoned, etc. Course, he tends to be such, as scum and town. It's going to be hard to pin anything on him if he's scum, but I actually do feel he's trying to help the town. (Course, I might be biased).

Megatheory
Honestly, I got nothing on him. He feels protown all the way. I hope he delivers his second look at me soon. His analyses feel sound basically. Also, his case on skillit is most assuredly superior to mine. (Course, mine is posting style and amount of fluff, which most people fine ironic)

StrangerCoug
His performance today seems to me to honestly be finding scum in his own way. It feels townie, if that's really good to go on. I honestly see him as town

[forbiddanlight]

Those I'm neutral on (and leaning town mostly)

Jshark
Waiting for the add more mostly. He's a bit too brief, but what he does say seems relatively solid. If he said more he'd probably be all town.

veerus

Then in her analysis, she claims she'll likely vote alvinz only to vote skillit when she gets to him in her analysis. But that vote was well explained, so it's only a minor inconsistency.

I'm kind of glazing over the whole skillit/FL argument. They have both been very verbose in this game with very little content, relatively speaking. FL's accusations, to me, are like the pot calling the kettle black.

veerus, how did I go from well reasoned to pot calling the kettle black? You were saying something about contradictions? But, to be fair, that's the only slightly scummy thing I find on you. Much as I hate to say it I don't see you as scum. I'm not ready to sell you as town either, but that's probably part OMGUS.

[forbiddanlight]

The moment you've all been waiting for, why I'm going to change my vote:



cerberus

At this point though, I think they are about equal and I could be swayed one way or the other pretty easily for now.

Fence sitting was noted here.

Styro's been banned, Rage is scummy, Skillit is off camping so we wont hear anything from him, and the SC wagon is officially dead.

unvote,vote:Rage

Wait...WHY?

You saw my logic in the post I voted him. The skillit wagon was not going to go anywhere 'cause he isn't here, nothing further can be gained by continuing to vote SC, and rage was acting even scummier than SC, so I voted Rage.

This is just as bad. Why did you not catch hell for this?

I can see the case on forbiddan, I might be willing to join the wagon.

This feels like something I did in another ongoing I caught hell for. You are preparing to join yet another wagon without much reasoning

Ok, well, I completely missed this before, but has anyone ELSE noticed Cerb hasn't put much reasoning behind his suspicions and either gone on or prepared to go on pretty much every wagon in this game? I'm glad I relooked at him.

unvote: Vote Cerb, HoS:skillit

I started on a skillit analysis (specifically pointing out where he's using words to hide questionable stances) but I'm beginning to get ill at all the mumbo jumbo he writes, so I will complete it either later tonight or tomorrow. I could honestly vote either at this point, but I feel rather excited at what I finally noticed on cerb.

[forbiddanlight]

Oh yeah, at least wait for me to throw my skillit case out before you lynch me, k? I promise I won't take 10 days this time .

[forbiddanlight]

Your case seems to amount to the fact that I have been short spoken.

What do you want me to do forbiddan? Plagiarize the cases of the other people on the wagon to make a farse at contributing in order to seem more townie? I agreed with the reasons people brought up with regards to your wagon. There is no need for me to repeat them. I see their cases, I weigh them in my head, and if they make sense I will place my vote.

How about think for yourself for once? You know, there are usually new things to say. Even if you think a case is exhausted, you can indeed at least post the reasons you follow with. Reasonless bandwagonning is one of the worst things to let people get away with.

You say it is bad, but you dont say why. Word count too low for you?

What's bad is that you shift on to the newest bandwagon with minimal reasoning. Everyone (including me) seemed to be like "kk, veerus is right"...but you seemed to most blatently say this. IIRC, the others either went with veerus' reasons (and restated the ones that sold it for them) or had their own. This wouldn't be as noteworthy if it weren't for the fact that you've been on every OTHER bandwagon this game except alvinz'.

[forbiddanlight]

Around the time of your original vote, your posts, while high on noise, were more or less concise and to the point. You simply stated that skillit's posts were a lot of noise and not a lot of action -- something I actually agreed with. Currently your back and forth with skillit approaches the epic proportions of "War and Peace" and the reasons for your original vote on him have become just as valid for you.

That's fair. As I said, I'm working on my proof of why the signal to noise skillit shows is hiding behaviors he might not want us to see.

[forbiddanlight]

Alright, you want to see what skillit hides with his massive wordiness? Stuff completely unnecessary yet posted anyway:

Also, misrepresent really has 2 meanings, to either incorrectly or misleadingly represent-what way did you mean it, i assume you believe i was intentionally misleading - which is absurd as i would have to do so knowingly, which i could not have done without the "info" you provided in post 54 (you were concerned because you are picky, and you wanted the mod to know someone might have broken a rule, but you didnt want any pnishment for him braking that rule?), and if you mean it as a way of saying i was incorrect about that post then, can you or anyone really fault me in reading it that way?- either way i utterly fail to see how my coments were at all a misrepresentation - care to actually explain it to me?

This whole paragraph was unneeded given the rest of his statements. To be fair, this feels just like he's trying to bolster the SC case with words, because it looks weaker when you break it down.

skillit's post 7 is as Megatheory or veerus said. A lot of quotes, very few opinions.

(unless you are implying a Humeian objection to the admissibility of my induction, and if you ARE this is an odd place for such talk, and is even still a FalseDilemma)

unnecessary

second of all your assertion that the statement, if taken they way i said i had received it, demands that he would unvote in order to to not vote hop is baseless.

Mostly because to unvote so quickly is a form of actual vote hopping, which would make such a move counter-intuitive, but also because your really just taking a false dichotomy to a new high by leaving only one choice.

It really must not be as you asseverate, and the fact that we are having this discussion is empirical evidence against your point.

Could have been said in the bolded sentence. And I could probably shave that down. What he's hiding is a case this time, I think, based purely on supposed logical fallacies, and trying to make it look stronger.

i said i think x and was told very matter of factly that i was wrong, perhaps im too literal, and im not standing by my impression of the post being 100%, (in fact i had intended to compose a post with my reaction to the discussion and how my interpritation had changed before i got . . sidetracked) but if a person says they think thought A and someone tells them they are incorrect the only option is if that person thinks they are not telling the truth. ie. i think that milk duds are gross, no you dont skillit, you love them, your a liar. thats how i read it. for me to say i like milk duds cannot possibly be wrong, as long as i in fact do like them. to claim otherwise is to invariably to assert my dishonsty.

All this is basically useless, though I don't see him trying to hide anything in here.

my sance on Alvinz is that his actions are scumy, but dont prove to me that he is scum. I see what he did, im just not sure it means he must be scum. When looking back at something like this i use the theory of actus non facit reum nisi mens sit rea, which means that "the act does not make a person guilty unless the mind is also guilty." I need to see a lot of his actions being betrayed by his motives. like pushing for a full on SC lynch, and wanting to bring on the night.

Even though he bolded the first a lot of the rest feels like "Yes, I said that, but now I'm going to bury it"

Half of skillit's post subject 11 is arguing "You put words in my mouth!". And yet it's four paragraphs long. I'm not sure if he was hiding anything, but it's still just WHY!?

now its like well, we lynch him and either get scum or we get rid of an anti town townie. you are either scum or your trying to help the scum - but does it matter anymore?

This in skillit's post 12 is one of the worst things I've seen. It's also yet again surrounded by a wall of text...where he reiterates it again. "Oh, well, I gave him a chance, now he's either a bad townie policy lynch or scum". I NEVER like those stances.

Post 17 shows a precursor to wagon hopping that was never completed. He found Rage scummy, but didn't switch vote at the time (understandable since the wagon hadn't gained much steam at this point I don't believe). It still is wagon hoppery IMO.

I had intended it to be read as a precurser to an actual post.The point was to first make sure everyone (including myself) was fully up to speed as i was geting the feeling most people were skimming the goat and alvinz issue and to see what developed when everything was summed up nicely. Also i only had time today to summarize but please take it however you want.

re addressed in post 18. Why did you wait til it was demanded of you to follow up? And why not promise a follow up in that post?

3)i had said in my previous post that he was at "strike 2" status - which to me is like saying he was just one telling mistake away from swaying me. he responded with (to me) a whopping tell.

Actually you didn't. Just a minor point

do you really think i used too many words in 389? honestly? really?? how am i counter casing? what else am i supposed to us if not words? picutres?.wav files? You are literally putting me in a corner where NOTHING i say matters. if i dont respond im lurking. if i do im too wordy.

Use words relevant to the game is really what I'm asking. If you spent 4 paragraphs expounding an actual point beyond defending a view because it's an opinion, I probably wouldn't have as much issue. But your lack of consiceness was hiding a few gems I hope I pointed out to everyone.

you sir are the mistaken one.

You got my gender wrong . Obvscum .

Alright, that's the skillit case. Now have fun everyone .

[forbiddanlight]

I would urge no one to respond to FL's case on Skillit before he does. I'd like to see his reactions and defenses before anyone else provides him with an easy out.

Well, at least you seem to kinda like my case since you think it requires him to defend. That's heartening. What about my case on cerb? Cerb has responded so that's fair game. What are your thoughts?

[forbiddanlight]

That's more policy than any kind of reaction. It's always best to let a player repsond first to anything that concerns them, so that you can be sure that their reactions are theirs alone, and not something "given" them by someone else, like mega's defense of you that you found so convenient.

Still true. But anyway, you didn't answer my question. What are your opinions on the cerberus case?

[forbiddanlight]

Good enough cerb. Just putting out some feelers. I knew as I was writing the case it wouldn't stand up.

unvote cerb, Vote: Skillit

. That case I feel a lot better about .

[forbiddanlight]

EBWOP: Yes, I could have pushed harder, but that would have gotten into deflection territory I think. The way cerb responded felt townie.

[forbiddanlight]

This feels like bussing to me.

Well, what will you say about him when I flip town?

Post 68, forbiddan: you call out the wagon as being scummy. However, in this post and post 62 you essentially agree with everyone's opinion of SC who is on the wagon and FoS SC yourself. You can't have it both ways. How is the wagon scummy if you agree with the stance of everyone on it?

Um, how about I disagree with the fact that every other vote except the first one was "I agree"?

Post 103, forbiddanlight: I think this post is quite scummy. You finally agree with the alvinz case after people start pushing him? What took you so long, public opinion not swaying quick enough for ya?

Maybe I had to look at the case first? I dunno, how about this, you find me scummy now that everyone has expressed suspicion on me. Public opinion not swaying quick enough for ya?

Post 105, forbiddanlight: why?

Already explained in post 109

Post 310, forbiddanlight: Boggle. You want to speedlynch Rage prior to extracting claim? Tsk tsk.

To be honest, that made sense given Rage's other posts. Try again.

[forbiddanlight]

Can we bring the whole skillit/forbiddan epic novel to a close now? A case has been stated and answered. Let the others decide.

I personally think that skillit's posting style is to post his stream of conciousness, maybe proof read it, and click submit. FL seems to have zeroed in on that and keeps sticking to her guns because his posts are longer than hers. (no, not really, but this is my way of saying you don't have a case)

Maybe so maybe not. I'm done really. I think I'm going to be the lynch for today. Hope something good comes of it. Oh, I'm not giving up, but I'm kinda tired.

[forbiddanlight]

So, I really think both GhostWriter and Forbiddan are scum, and I saw a few places that would support this pairing, but I'm not interested in that until one of them is dead and has shown up scum as it's meaningless until that point.

Pro tip. Don't clear Ghost when I flip. I beg of you that much.

3. Cerebus3/Megatheory. Both of these rely on my assumption of Forbiddan as scum, which is why I won't press them for now. Cerebus is because I feel the Forbiddan push on him and then instant back off seems fishy (and I'm decidedly neutral on his posts throughout the game anyway). Megatheory is because of his push to place the hammer suspicion on StrangerCoug rather than Forbiddan. The rest of his play had me leaning town on him yesterday, but after review I'm decidedly neutral.

Again, you DAMN well better not clear them when I flip.

Also, to take myself to L-1 so I don't quick hammer as I might do it I were frustrated,

unvote, vote forbiddanlight

May you have much info from my death (Oh yeah, I'm a vanilla townie).

Oh, and don't go saying that I'm being a hypocrite given my view on alvinz. He didn't throw out any cases (good or not), I'm at least trying to do as much. Good luck .

[forbiddanlight]

Preying on fear.

Whatever

You also agreed. You can't condemn people for sharing the same belief you have, which is exactly what you did. You agreed with their reasoning, but attacked the wagon anyway.

Because the wagon was scummy and fast as hell. You know this.

The difference is reasoning. I've just laid out plenty of reasons for my vote. All of your votes day 1 are with minimal reasoning, or unsupported vague reasoning, and every single one of them happened on the current top target right as people were switching over.

So? You still did the same thing. Whatever

And I want more reasoning than that. What does "I've done it before" mean, and what does a dramatic claim have anything to do with alignment.

Actually, it doesn't. It's more for fun. I never said his claim was scummy, just lame. Don't misrepresent me. I think you've dug up enough without making yourself look like an ass.

Prove it. Show me exactly where Rage displayed signs that he was uninterested in claiming his role.

Nyeh, you can see them yourself

[forbiddanlight]

Lame

Oh, of course. For my play, I do not deserve an epic claim of awesomeness. Though I consider supersaint to piss people off for no reason.

[forbiddanlight]

Oh, to be fair, and this will be OMGUSy as hell, and likely not paid heed...look at goat closely when you get a chance. He's feeling more like his scummy meta than his townie. The way the case feels, really. I mean, I can't really explain it...just...keep an eye on him, please.

[forbiddanlight]

Oh, to be fair, and this will be OMGUSy as hell, and likely not paid heed...look at goat closely when you get a chance. He's feeling more like his scummy meta than his townie. The way the case feels, really. I mean, I can't really explain it...just...keep an eye on him, please.

If you feel my case is scummy, then why not defend yourself and show why?

Because I don't know why. It's a meta feel really. Nothing is particularly wrong with what you said, it's just...intuition. Which is why no one will listen to me. But, I do think at least skillit and goat are scum. Who knows who else.

[forbiddanlight]

So why exactly are you voting yourself?

Cause, I know me. I'd self hammer just to piss everyone off. I'm preventing that by putting my vote there now. There's also a possibility of info being gathered by how this plays out. Either way, I encourage my lynch so we'll at least be fresh off the subject of me tomorrow, and hopefully pay more credence to those I named, whether my cases suck or not.

[forbiddanlight]

How do you suggest we get information out of your self-vote? This is the exact same dumb scenario Rage tried. If you do something anti-town, you're going to attract both scum and town. There is really no pro-town rationale for voting yourself. There is limited pro-scum rationale, such as cutting short discussion, which is part of the reason I'm unvoting. I would certainly like to hear what you plan on learning from this exercise though.

Who's a coward. But there's more than that. However if I said it it would ruin it. There's also the fact that it's pretty intuitive after the fact. I mean, for all you know I'm WIFOMing the hell out of you to see if anyone tries to save me. Should be interesting anyway.

We gather information from lynches based on who was on the lynch. If you're on your own lynch, that's one less person to gather information from, which is why it's not at all pro-town.

Yes, you do. There are still other ways of gathering information from a lynch. I think you'll find because I can't defend the case put against me this is the most pro town course of action I have remaining. Hopefully it will play out as such.

[forbiddanlight]

Well, at least I won't self hammer

[forbiddanlight]

I'm not trying to use emotion. I'm hoping to see something. I'll probably be lynched in it, but it should be illuminating. As for my cases, well, those weren't emotional. I have never been great at building cases, it's mostly I'll make an observation and others will run with it for better or for worse.

[forbiddanlight]

I'm already voting for forbiddanlight, but it would be nice if I had the chance to look at them before anybody hammered please. I don't mind her lynch, though.

I'm at L-3 again. Apparently no one liked me being to close to lynch. Cowards as usual.

[forbiddanlight]

Please do not set up future lynches based on your own. Also, I thought sthar8 told you not to use meta as evidence of alignment.

And why do I give a crap what Sthar says? I am my own person. Heed that. And I'm not setting up a lynch. I know what I say will be disregarded. I don't hold any illusions. I just make suggestions now.

Why would he do so given we all have an equal chance of being scum, especially at this stage of the game?

Because he's basing his cases on those off of my flip. When I flip town, I don't want him to turn a blind eye on the off chance he's not scum

Name-calling gets you nowhere.

Nyeh, is it name calling when there is truth involved?

Hello!?

Self control measure. Actually should be a null tell in all your eyes.

[forbiddanlight]

Forbiddan, I find it funny (and telling) that you go from repeatedly saying I'm town over and over again this game, to all of a sudden I'm obviously scum but yet you can't think of any reasons why. OMGUS much?

Did I not say it'd be seen that way? And repeatedly exagerrates. I think you can quote me 3, possibly 4 times with that stance. And let me point out that I had a bit of time to think about how you've been playing. It feels more like mini 626. And I also said it's hard to catch you as scum.

[forbiddanlight]

You are getting rather defensive for mere OMGUS. If it's truly nothing, why do you care? And I've played with you as town before. Even if it's not on this site, the meta is similar. Your attacking my weak attack is not making you look good, at least in my opinion. Almost feels like you are trying to stamp out the thought before it catches?

[forbiddanlight]

Finally, the burden of proof is on you to prove how being defensive is scummy.

If it's not a case, why defend it? You are jumping at shadows. You honestly are in full rights to dismiss it. By trying to attack it you are basically lending it credence.

[forbiddanlight]

Also, you're completely missing the point. My entire point in these last two posts is that your attack on me is scummy. You're not scum hunting, you're trying to toss suspicion around wherever it best suits you.

Fair enough. It still feels to me you are trying to quash the thought, and I'm beginning to actually consider trying again at this point to get people the fuck off me and onto scum. Then again, it's likely to no avail.

[forbiddanlight]

blah blah blah blah blah

FL, you've discredited yourself throughout this game with your empty and narrow-minded accusations. So don't cry about how no one will believe you now.

Fine. I do ask one thing. An I told you so post game when I'm right at least about skillit. That one I feel almost certain of, even if no one will believe me. Goat, I'm not as sure of because on the surface he does appear pro town. But, this feels exactly like Mini 626. Also, goat, the toolshed is another meta I can use since I know you are town. (It's a long story). You don't feel like you did there.

[forbiddanlight]

EBWOP: Even if you think the case boils down to too many words, he is hiding things among his walls of texts, and you'd do well to keep an eye out for them.

[forbiddanlight]

Oh, for fun:

I mentioned this in my reread notes, but I find this extremely scummy. Both of these quotes show forbiddan in agreement with the people voting for StrangerCoug and she even backs it up with a FoS on Coug herself. However, in the same breath she condemns the wagon. This doesn't make any sense. If she legitimately agrees with the arguments of those voting for StrangerCoug, then why would she feel the wagon is scummy? This is her playing both sides. She's pushing along the wagon with her words, but remaining off of it herself which seems contradictory and scummy.

Um, hello, a wagon can SURE as hell be scummy even if the target is scummy as well. I didn't like how the people on the wagon were voting SC. I've said this several times. I'm not gonna jump on what feels like a scum driven wagon even if the target feels potentially scummy. And the meta didn't support it.

She joins the Alvinz wagon once it picks up steam with what I would classify as hasty recycled reasoning. Why would she just now come to the conclusion that Alvinz is scummy and for reasons that have been stated for quite a while? My take is that it's because said wagon is finally picking up steam.

Actually, it's more like I had to reread before making my decision. I think I said this. As for the lame, lame != scummy

Ah, the fresh skillit wagon begins and Forbiddan reneges on her statement that she'll likely be going back to alvinz. Her reason for voting him is basically that he says a lot of stuff that isn't really necessary and is posting for the sake of posting. Neither are supported arguments. She says she senses scum. I sense opportunism

I addressed that then and further addressed it today. While people disagree, I swear to you that skillit is scummy, and very likely scum for the way he's been posting. You've read it yourself. A lot of his words are unnecessary and confuse the issue. Seriously, I think skillit had maybe 2 votes by the time I "jumped on the wagon". I also was doing this in the context of analysis, because I had finally completed a reread. My promise to vote alvinz didn't hold because I hadn't gotten to skillit. Honestly, this is null.

Hasty, unsupported reasoning for jumping aboard. Doesn't classify the inconsistency. Doesn't suggest what random movement on the alvinz issue means or why it's scummy, and doesn't even begin to explain "overall non pro town behavior." I'm not seeing any solid reasons for a change to Rage here outside the fact that it's now the wagon du jour.

I HoS'd. Not a vote. I didn't ask for the hammer yet either. And seriously, I do believe I was leaning scummy on him as of my analysis anyway. My explanations are there. They didn't bear repeating.

No, I'm sorry but that doesn't work. You can't make a case on someone and then later say "I knew it was a bad case" after the fact. Rolling Eyes

I also haven't liked fobiddan buddying up to me but yet at the same time leaving the door open by saying I'm good at playing scum. I feel she's trying to buy my support but yet also keep open the possibility of changing her mind in case the town wants to lynch me.

So overall, I think there are a bunch of good indicators that Forbiddan is scum and I haven't even touched into the reasons others are voting Forbiddan (some I find decent, others I find weak).

We'll see how true this is if you flip scum. Reactions to a case, no matter how weak, are still info. I didn't feel I was in a good position to press cerb further and his response felt good enough.

Rolling Eyes You're the one who asserted this is the case, you're the one who has to back it up, not me.

Fine:

I need more votes please.

At L-3 (L-2 even since I reserved Hammah.)

What makes you think I'm suicidal?

You are for all intents and purposes at L-2. And asking for more votes when you should be claiming.

Will be out all day, and back online very late. More votes would be appreciated.

He's reiterated thrice. Of course I'm not feeling he might claim. This is his last post before I state my feeling he's attempting to stretch the day to hopefully get out of being lynched. I think that should show this quite nicely.

He VALIDATES my thoughts here:

In the first quote, you say you see no reason not to just lynch me I assume you mean apply more evidence than just bandwagoning instead of controlling the Town's actions) but in the second you want a claim out of me. Explain please.

It took him two pages after this to finally claim vanilla townie. I also did state several times I'd wait for sthar's analysis. I probably should have waited for the PBPA, but that was still showable the next day. So there, a defense. Best I got, so if you want to lynch me anyway, so be it.

[forbiddanlight]

Woo, now forbiddan is not even hiding the fact that she is just casting suspicion on whoever votes for her. I would hammer but we are waiting for replacements on 2(?) people and megatheory needs to catch up, and SC has limited access right now. Is alvinz around now?

Oh? Actually, not quite. I don't have much suspicion on veerus. In fact, I've only thrown suspicion on two people voting me. That's FAR from whoever votes for me. Hell, skillit isn't even voting for me and I suspect him most. So, what the hell is your game here cerb?

[forbiddanlight]

But you just can't base your case on meta and "gut feelings".

I know this will sound stupid and scummy, but I really don't care. I'm a sucky case maker. I'd rather have someone who's actually capable of making something stick case GR. I might try if I feel like it, but seriously? Anything I say won't stick, and will make him harder to lynch later.

[forbiddanlight]

Woo, now forbiddan is not even hiding the fact that she is just casting suspicion on whoever votes for her. I would hammer but we are waiting for replacements on 2(?) people and megatheory needs to catch up, and SC has limited access right now. Is alvinz around now?

Oh? Actually, not quite. I don't have much suspicion on veerus. In fact, I've only thrown suspicion on two people voting me. That's FAR from whoever votes for me. Hell, skillit isn't even voting for me and I suspect him most. So, what the hell is your game here cerb?

I say I think your wagon is scummy and you suddenly pull out a total 100% BS case on me that is nothing more than an OMGUS vote in the end if you ask me, and then goat votes you and you start casting suspicion on him as well. It is pretty damn blatant if you ask me. Veerus was suspicious of you for a while, and voted you before that you started OMGUS-ing, so he does not count.

To be fair I honestly wanted a reaction from you. I wasn't really feeling my case, but I figured I could push to see how you reacted. Goat, I just want to see dead because I feel he's scum. I still say you can't dictate who counts or not, because you qualified it saying everyone on my wagon. Whatever though. Skillit is scum, I'm almost certain. Goat is likely scum, but it's maddeningly hard to prove so to speak. Still out on the third scum, actually. For all I know it could be alvinz .

[forbiddanlight]

If I do not have the right to take pride in being a horrendous Mafia player, then neither do you. You've also reduced yourself to pessimism, which doesn't bode well.

I'm not this bad on the other side it seems. After spies my scum game greatly improved (one would hope since that was my first time as scum). I'm not going to claim that "Oh, I'm sucking this game so I'm obviously not scum", I just wouldn't precisely say I'm horrendous at mafia. And yes, I've been reduced to pessimism because the first attempts I made sucked. I MAY have actually created a semi solid defense now if I press it, but basically confirmation bias will throw me to the lynch.

[forbiddanlight]

Er, I meant "I say that your wagon has merit". I did not think the wagon was scummy.

Which is what caught my eye. If you liked the wagon, why did you not jump on it?

[forbiddanlight]

So your scum team is the one where I came out of the gates and ferociously attacked Alvinz, taking him to claim range, and then later jumped off him only to start yet another wagon on a scum buddy skillit?

I only said maybe alvinz. He was acting scummy and got thrown to the wayside. And that's still WIFOM and you know it. As for skillit, you barely got on him.

[forbiddanlight]

I'm guessing your tactic is to either scare them away from voting you in the chance they are wrong

I did say you all were cowards

or to try to create WIFOM after you're dead.

Would that I could.

Both times I've seen you as scum you've done this exact same thing where you throw suspicion around and OMGUS your attackers as being scum trying to push home a mislynch on you.

I also do the same thing as town. In fact, have you ever seen me as town under pressure? I mean, truly? Because this tends to be my response to pressure in general. The ongoing I was lynched D1 in is a good example. Unfortunately I can't cite it.

[forbiddanlight]

checkingin.

You forgot to vote me. It's popular

[forbiddanlight]

We're also planning to lynch me! Isn't that so exciting mod? I'm psyched to see my imminent death at the hands of the town.

[forbiddanlight]

We're also planning to lynch me! Isn't that so exciting mod? I'm psyched to see my imminent death at the hands of the town.

Never have I seen anybody glorify their own lynch.

There are a lot of firsts with me, Stranger .

[forbiddanlight]

In fact, it is against the rules to quote that in my signature because it's from an ongoing? Cause I like that . (The never have I see from SC )

[forbiddanlight]

EBWOP: Is it (not it is)

[forbiddanlight]

In fact, it is against the rules to quote that in my signature because it's from an ongoing? Cause I like that . (The never have I see from SC )

I believe so, but once it's over, not only am I putting that in the quotes section on my Wiki, but I'm nominating you for a title based on it. I'll see to it that both of these happen.

It's going in my sig anyway . Speaking of which, I should probably make my own wiki soon. I do have 2 completed games, one of which where I was a rather good random shooter.

[forbiddanlight]

It's going in my sig anyway Razz.

EBWOP: After the game I meant, lol.

[forbiddanlight]

Plus a vote on Cerb. So you find goat, skillit, cerb, me, and maybe alvinz scummy? I think that means we're in LYLO.

Actually, I said you weren't scummy. I also said cerb wasn't really. That leaves goat and skillit. You may have a case, but don't be fucktarded and misrepresent me.

As for your self-vote, I think it best that we keep you off L-1 unless your vote is already on the wagon until we're ready for you to die (read: our lurkers and replacements have checked in). You've already admitted your intent to self-hammer if allowed to, and I think that we should avoid giving you the chance.

Hey, dude, are you thinking ok? Because if my vote is on me, and I'm at L-1, I don't think removing my vote and revoting myself would work. And I only said I MIGHT self hammer to piss everyone off. Please stick to facts.

I'm not going to go into the hypocrisy of your suspicions, since others have addressed the issue and I don't want to beat a dead horse. As for the disinterest in scumhunting,

Wow, that was like page 6 when NOTHING WAS FUCKING HAPPENING! That's not a proof

He went from "probable town" to "likely scum" in three days, and the only thing that changed as far as I can see is his newfound suspicion of you.

I revisited things. And actually, it was his case on me that made me feel different. But not because of the OMGUS, but because of the way he presented it. I still stand by skillit strongest though.

Very good use of quotes out of order...but such misrepresentation is scummy. It might not make you scum, because I think you are just trying to push for more momentum on this wagon, but as I said, stick to facts, not fantasies by switching the order of quotes in a decietful way.

[forbiddanlight]

I can't find anything by you that says you think sthar8 is town, and your constantly attacking him doesn't look like it either. Also, if you don't think cerebus3 is that scummy, then why did you vote him in the first place?

I did at first. His response made me change my mind.

I don't know about you, you could just be pushing the lynch, but my gut says much as I would love to have you lynched, and see you flip scum, you aren't the play.

That was to sthar

The profanity is unnecessary and does not add credibility to your case. You also can't hunt scum by voting yourself.

That's because I am done with this game basically. If something saves me, all well and good. I've put out all the info you should need though.

It is not a pro-town move to self-hammer at all let alone out of spite for everyone else, so please don't do it.

Which is why I'm voting myself now. My compulsion can't exceed the rules.

How does the way he presented the case on you make you believe he is scum?

I wish I knew. It's because of a meta and the feelings parallel.

I don't know why he does it, but I actually don't mind as long as I understand him. Maybe there's an order he does it that makes better sense to him than chronologically. Quoting out of order is not scummy per se, though I can see some ways how doing so can be manipulative (e.g. trying to make someone's D2 actions look like they caused their D1 actions, which makes no sense regardless of presentation order).

No offense, you are an idiot if you think non chronological ordering, at least in THIS case isn't scummy. He's strawmanning me left and right with that last post.

[forbiddanlight]

It's hard to be motivated to analyze forbiddanlight when she is likely to be lynched. I think she is probably scum, however she's been the focus of the day and there hasn't been much discussion of anyone but her.

Tends to happen when I'm a lynch candidate. When I go out, it tends to consume the day. Unfortunately, I wish this would happen when I'm SCUM, not TOWN, since I'd really like to win anyway.

[forbiddanlight]

We would all much rather you stick around until it's the end of you, but if you must get yourself out of the game, then ask the mod to replace you. Don't be a pain in the neck to everybody and threaten to put yourself out of your own misery.

No, I'm sticking around. Replacing out would be cowardly. And it's clearly an empty threat. Hell, not even a threat. I took a measure to PREVENT that. Do you all not understand that? But, whatever. And plus, there's always a Deus Ex Machina possible. Don't see one coming, but there is the possiblity. I unfortunately missed my first chance to really make things interesting for the scum though.

[forbiddanlight]

That's it, forbiddanlight, I have ceased to understand you anymore.

Wait, you thought you could understand me? Ah, what a laugh. Well, that's the problem with my playstyle. Half the time my apparent randomness works well in my favor. The other half...well, this is the result.

[forbiddanlight]

That's it, forbiddanlight, I have ceased to understand you anymore.

Wait, you thought you could understand me? Ah, what a laugh. Well, that's the problem with my playstyle. Half the time my apparent randomness works well in my favor. The other half...well, this is the result.

You're crazy regardless.

That much was transparently obvious.

[forbiddanlight]

So which is it?

Contrary to popular belief, those aren't contradictory. Even if it's a bad case, had he responded in way that was scummy, would have strengthened the case and my cause to vote. I also couldn't push as hard as I like since that would be "deflecting". Especially considering good enough was a reply to his response. You know, this is getting a little zany here. Don't you all think you have enough on me not to have to make stuff up and make yourselves look bad?

[forbiddanlight]

People quoting you in a non chronological order - Not scummy.

It is when it's misrepresenting my stances. It's very CLEAR that sthar put words in my mouth in his last post. To be fair, countering VEERUS' point like I did was paranoid. But he did present it as if the only conclusion was contradiction.

rather than simply address the contradiction, you take it upon yourself to also accuse him of making stuff up.

Even if you're paranoid doesn't mean people aren't out to get you. If I'm being misrepresnted, I'm calling it out assuming sinister intent. I know my alignment, and you all will shortly. I'll give you a hint...it starts with a t, ends in an n, and in the center is an exclamation of pain.

Anytime anyone brings up anything against you, you basically hit them with an ad hom attack, which is not pro-town whatsoever.

Ah, you forget where I'm like "Screw you I won't defend". That's not covered by this statement

[forbiddanlight]

I can tell you that its not much fun to play when everyone is always just saying "well kill me ha ha im town you are way off."

Well, ya see, it would be a lot easier if I could actually defend, you see. I tried to defend and all of it was called out of hand. I'm done, since nothing I say is working. Do you think it's fun for me to have to come up with something that doesn't exist? I gave you what I had, it's your turn to accept or decline. You all are declining. So, whatever, I'm done.

[forbiddanlight]

What all is forbiddanlight guilty of? OMGUS, self-voting, straw man arguments, argumenta ad hominem, blaming others for her actions... Yeah. I'm ready to get rid of her.

I love how at least 2 of those can apply to you .

[forbiddanlight]

I see a forbiddanlight and StrangeCoug team, or a StrangeCoug/Goat, or a Goat/FL.

More on the FL/SC.

Um, seriously? How do any of these work. Especially SC/FL? SC STARTED the day attacking me. If we were a scum team, I'd like to think the previous night we'd have come up with my defense and how he was gonna back off. Bussing actually makes little sense since I was barely being looked at D1. Goat, I'd cede as a possible scum partner to me given the way I attacked him last. The only problem will be my flip :S.

[forbiddanlight]

unvote, Vote: FL

In fact, what are your reasons for voting me? Just because several have been enumerated doesn't mean you don't have to specify them.

[forbiddanlight]

ok, you gave us what you had, can you give us more? i know how you felt about me before, what do you think of me now? What do you think about categorical imperitaves(playing a way that it would not be good for everyone to play)? What do you think about the wagon on you and specifically what do you think the problems with it are? It seems like you are implying that there is no problem with it but that you are town. how can this be? If you insist on burning down and that you are town what can you say to not make it a waste?

I still think you are scum. Probably me being stubborn but yeah. As for the second, they probably suck. I shouldn't be playing like this but I'm kinda like fuck it at this point. The wagon on me? I've already pointed out who I think is scum on it. There are definitely scum on it laughing at getting lucky twice in a row. It's just my defenses weren't good enough, so, whatever. And there isn't anything I can say to not make it a waste. I already tried defending. It failed. I'm trying to point out the scum to you, one of which with a case that everyone scoffs at, the other purely on meta. Hell, I haven't even had the inclination to point out everything wrong with each post on this page. Of which there is a lot, which I'm sure looking back will discover. Dunno what you really want here.

[forbiddanlight]

But I also left out the comments you made toward veerus and SC suggesting that they are town playing poorly, because you have one scummy piece of evidence against them and can't find any more.

Show me. At least on veerus. SC has been town playing poorly. See...all of day 1.

It sure is evidence, though. And do you know what we do when we need to move the game along and nothing is happening? We scumhunt! Unless, of course, you already knew who the scum were.

If anything it was a joke. You are really rather stretching.

I don't see how the order in which they are presented constitutes misrepresentation and deceit, or is even relevant.

The order probably was what I picked up on most. I'm not sure if that's what makes it scummy, though it seemed that way in the heat of the moment. It was still a scummy post and I've tried to explain that.

As for the SC/FL team idea, I could see it as possible, though I'd need more evidence on SC to consider it plausible. In the game I just finished (yay completed game!!) scum did something very similar after I presented a case on one of their members at the end of day 1.

You also better be ready to be rethinking when I flip .

[forbiddanlight]

Alright, as mentioned earlier, I'm eating the day alive here. I would like to do the town a favor. I will withdraw from this game for 3 days. I will not post at all. In exchange, I'd like you to free up discussion to beyond me. I of course am an available subject, but I'd prefer you to go beyond me, so this day isn't a complete waste.

3 days begins now.

[forbiddanlight]

Nyeh, I return. I'm ashamed of you all. You did not even a page in my absence. Am I seriously the only thing you can think of to talk about? Hell, might as well lynch me and get your heads out of your asses.

[forbiddanlight]

forbiddan, you're not helping. If that wasn't blatantly obvious already.

I tried to give you a chance to go beyond me so you'd have a game plan Day 3 after lynching me. You all completely failed at using it. I'm sorry I'm not helpful, but in this case some of the fault was yours. Probably tomorrow I'll attempt another defense at the points brought against me.

[forbiddanlight]

Was cerb away during my absence, or did he make himself scarce as well?

[forbiddanlight]

I quoted the entire post. Not ripped out of context. I must admit, that you'vebeen less suspicious as compared to SC and FL, but I still have to consider it because of your interactions with SC. They were not random posts, as I was looking for evidence to support my theory, which was hunting down who is scum with SC. And yes you are exactly right on distancing.

Ok, so, if I flip town, what will your theories be then? I'm kinda curious here?

[forbiddanlight]

I must admit, that you'vebeen less suspicious as compared to SC and FL, but I still have to consider it because of your interactions with SC. They were not random posts, as I was looking for evidence to support my theory, which was hunting down who is scum with SC.

Tunnel vision again, eh?

My tunnel vision is right.

The hilarious part will be figuring out his reactions when I flip. Since his whole theory kinda falls apart then. I still want an answer alvinz.

[forbiddanlight]

I don't really see that as much of a slip or all that conclusive. The majority of 12 player games have 3 scum, so it's not much of a stretch or indicator of hidden information to make that assumption.

This. I love how everyone is just looking for bullshit to make the case look better. OMG! She said three scum! She knows! Except...yanno...I ALWAYS assume 3 scum in a 12 player setup, if and until I'm proven wrong. Hell, there IS meta proof of that somewhere. So, k, thx, your slip sucks, bai.

[forbiddanlight]

No we don't.
Though it makes it far less likely that this set up is not mountanious, only scum and the powerroles we may have know if this is mountainous or not.

Um...what? And also, how does no kill fit into mountainous again?

Anyway, I'm not so confident with the slip-up now, but it's still pretty huge to assume the number of scum, in my opinion.

Well, ya see, here's the thing. In most of the minis I've looked at, the number has been around 3 scum. that's generally the assumption I go off of unless proven otherwise. So, the assumption is rather characteristic for me anyway.

[forbiddanlight]

Scum can decide not to kill anybody, which helps if they fakeclaim doctor.

So, they can choose no kill? I actually didn't know that.

[forbiddanlight]

So, can I ask you all one thing, once again? What happens to your tower of suspicions when I flip town? Do you all have ANY contigencies? Or are you just so certain of my flip you all will be floating on nothing tomorrow?

[forbiddanlight]

FL: My other suspicions have little to do with your case, though I will have some new thoughts when you flip scum.

WHEN I flip scum now? Oh, so you think to know my alignment, I wonder? Well, the only explanation could be that you are scum with me, or scum just repainting an almost dead townie.

Yes, that is exactly how much of a case BaB's supposition of my "slip" was. Though, one could wonder about you, sthar.

[forbiddanlight]

Well, you've done nothing to convince me otherwise, despite numerous opportunities, so can you fault me for being optimistic about the lynch of someone who is unhelpful to the degree that you are?

Nyeh, I tried to defend and failed. Sorry my play is so scummy. Hopefully this will at least assist my meta a little, however helpful that might be.

[forbiddanlight]

FL: the "slip" thing isn't a case. It's just icing on the cake. You've been acting scummy, and I really don't think it's worth my time to repeat what everyone else has said countless times.

Nyeh, whatever. Present your suspects anyway. These people will need a lead tomorrow after my flip tears down their house of cards cases.

[forbiddanlight]

I was trying to get FL to comment about what she thinks we should focus on if she does flip town. ie "i think person x is scum and this is why" so that should the impossible happen (her actually being town) we might have some people less likely to be scum. which I still think is a good idea as no matter which way she flips she can help us out. fl names "person x". fl dies, flips town. person x now on the record as being suspiscious to someone whose intentions we can trust. or fl dies flips scum "person x" being someone who we know scum wnated us to look at for whatever reason. could be scum or town yes i know, but that info still helps us.
By refusing to do so it does make it more likely that she is scum.

So, wait, are you saying I've been refusing to present who I think is scum? Although I have been saying who I think is scum for the past few pages? Am I missing something here?

[forbiddanlight]

You've also attacked a few random people.. Do you want to reiterate your suspects in a couple short sentences? I'm sure your alignment will be telling to town in who you think is scum.

Once again, I think skillit and Goat are scum. I've had a hard time supporting these so I kinda stopped trying, but I think I'm right on at least one. If there is a third scum, it might be alvinz, but I'm not positive.

[forbiddanlight]

LOL AT BOLDED!
I find it absolutely hilarious that my slip on you was stupid and that it's right to assume that there's three scum, but this time you make sure to include the world "if" in there. That's priceless.

Well, since certain idiots are making something out of nothing, I might as well appease them since I'm dead anyway. How bout this? There are 11 scum. I'll list them all for you .

[forbiddanlight]

I am not trying to subvert the lynch on FL. Almost everyone here with the exception of FL have agreed that she is today's lynch. It is not pro-town to keep this lynchacious player around for another day. Plus, she has been scummy.

Oh? So even if I hadn't been scummy but somehow lynchacious, as you say, you'd support my lynch because it's not pro town? Why does this sound STRIKINGLY like policy. Move BaB up a couple notches on the scumdar.

[forbiddanlight]

EBWOP: Not pro town to keep me alive. Isn't is not pro town to lynch town players, no matter how badly they play?

[forbiddanlight]

This makes no sense. You have a slim chance of being town in my eyes. NO one knows if you are town. If you play bad and you come out town, then oh well, sucks for us, the town. Its not scummy to lynch people because they are scummy dummy (lol).

It isn't, but the phrasing is what piqued my interest. The way BaB phrased it was in a "regardless of her alignment she needs to die", and that tends to be a scum tell in my eyes.

[forbiddanlight]

Personally, I feel a maddeningly subtle difference between his town meta and his scum meta. Just...the way he's presenting things. I don't really know how to explain it, or even if it's precisely valid since the only regular type of game I've been in with him as town, he was a cop. He was scum against me in a game with 2 scum teams, and the third game we've been together in he was town, but it was rather ridiculous. This was spies, which is definitely not your average mafia game...

You know, thinking on it, me and Goat have never been on the same team thus far in a game of mafia, lol.

[forbiddanlight]

It is the Too Townie argument, I'm well aware. And unfortunately, I can only get GOOD meta reads when I'm in the game with you. No matter how you flip the data I get from this game will be valuable in future games. And why can't I compare with spies? Also, for Mini 626, It more feels the same rather than is the same. It's hard to distinguish

And plus, since I'm already gonna be lynched I'm gonna Reverse Gambler's Fallacy saying that in the past 3 games you've been the opposite alignment of me, so odds are against it being this case, however I tend to be on the wrong side of the odds anyway so therefore the odds are fluidly in the favor of you being on the opposite alignment .

[forbiddanlight]

Alright, so despite the fact most of your case on SC is interactions with me, even if I flip town it makes SC scum? And as for Goat, I still haven't figured out your case on him.

[forbiddanlight]

Everybody note this. I think it'll be important later.

Why? If I'm town, I obviously wouldn't know, and if I'm scum, it's WIFOM like crazy.

[forbiddanlight]

Wait, I thought you were voting me? When did you switch? I guess I missed something?

[forbiddanlight]

Am I then? I guess the mod screwed up my PM. Yanno, the one that says I'm a council member. That I should be using my intelligence to find and kill mafia? Cause if SC is my partner I think it'd say sommat different.

[forbiddanlight]

Very well I will continue my tunnel vision. When I claim I go full out scumhunting with no fear in my actions. Go with my gut. Thats why I have tunnel vision.

Nyeh, I'm a gut player myself, but I've also found most of the time you can justify your gut with evidence. Now, I have a unique perspective since I know my alignment, and it's not what everyone thinks it is. I know your house of cards will fall when I flip. The problem is, even if I'm town you say that SC and Goat are scum. So, what I'm wondering is what evidence do you have against these that DOESN'T directly tie to me?

[forbiddanlight]

I have revealed my role. I can scumhunt how I like to scumhunt. I am going full out on you, and FL. Your play has been horrendously scummy and continues still, so I'm pondering on whether or not to vote you.

So, wouldn't it be funny if in the end you all get off me, start another wagon, and by some miracle I end up alive tomorrow? I don't think you want to do that. I've already proven you all just can't get enough of talking about me. I think you should probably lynch me soon and get scum hunting. This goes for everyone.

[forbiddanlight]

There is equally strong evidence (perhaps stronger) of scum buddying. Your posts of "your house of cards will fall" is chipping at me. Its annoying.

Scum buddying? Like, in what way, like SC and Goat buddying to me? Or SC and goat buddying each other? And sorry if the truth hurts. I can't change my alignment.

[forbiddanlight]

Goat/SC, HAVEN'T YOU SEEN MY WHOLE ARGUMENT YET? (not angry)

I've kinda stopped paying attention to everything everyone says since I'm the lynch of the day. If you want to link me that'd be cool.

The fact of the matter is that's it's going to.

You profess to think me scum. Why will his "house of cards" fall if this is true? While you know your alignment and it may be the same as mine (I lean that way), I seem to be the base of the case unless I missed something. Meaning, that if my flip were scum, it'd support his case a lot. If my flip is town, he apparently has buddying between you and Goat to fall back on.

[forbiddanlight]

Even though I still have good reason to believe you are scum, I now think alvinz95 is scummier than you, so you can stop being pessimistic.

Nah, I'll still be lynched. To be honest though, unless everyone decides to be done talking about me, or at least this aspect of my play, I'm the best lynch. If you all decide not to lynch me, it has to be implicit that this part of the case is dead, only to be revived in conjunction with new evidence. What I mean to say is, if I'm not lynched, you need to talk about something more than me. Don't let me eat another day. I mean, talking about me is fine, but don't let it cloud your sight, I guess.

[forbiddanlight]

I could go with an alvinz lynch (obviously), but I still don't think that'd help the town overall even if he is scum since we'll just come back to eating another day with me, unless people are willing to look past that and only bring new things into account.

[forbiddanlight]

Fair enough. Veerus, return your vote to me. I'm taking your placeholder off.
Not my first choice, but

Unvote, vote Alvinz

[forbiddanlight]

(I do actually question her motives for voting you, however—it looks on the opportunistic side.)

It is. But my vote is useless on myself and guess what? I actually have a chance to live now. It's pro whatever faction I'm on to do that, ne?

[forbiddanlight]

Oh well, fun game is what I would say. I have fun when I have severe tunnel vision, then I'm right. Its happened about 3/4 of the games I've played in. Whenever I'm the sole person to attack someone, I'm miraculously right. All completed: (Erratus Apathos, Xtoxm, Xyzzy).

So that's why you aren't tunneling on me? Nice to know

You may not realize it, but the way you worded #752 tells us you are not vanilla.

I'd also like to take this opportunity to point out his D1 claim when he appeared to be the lynch. Yanno, vanilla townie. So, it basically means he's not scum if it wasn't just a bad turn of phrase. You know, slips really are overrated.

[forbiddanlight]

Let's have a hypocrisy moment!

Just because something worked three times in your favor does not necessarily mean it will again a fourth time. It's an appeal to probability, for a lack of a better thing to call it.

Are you familiar with the gambler's fallacy? I'm not sure if this falls under it, but really, it doesn't mean he's wrong or right. The probability is the same as it is for any other game. number of scum divided by number of players, modified by the data he has (which doesn't appear to be much seeing as there is barely a case on you not tied to me)

I am very, VERY tempted to vote myself and then advocate my own lynch for the sole purpose of proving your tunnel vision wrong.

This is so anti town I'm amazed. I can't say it's scummy because it hurts you no matter what side you are on, but why the fuck even offer it? Teaching is for newbie games, and even then this strategy would be a horrible way to teach someone.

If you are willing to risk me blowing your cover this way, then let me know, but remember, if it works against your favor, it's on you.

Just...no. Honestly. First, if you do lynch yourself, we have the problem of me unresolved. Second, if you lynch yourself, as town, you cost the town another body and that's never good, and hard to afford as it keeps going. If you lynch yourself as scum, by all means do it, but let me point out here that that's a horrible strategy since I can only think you plan to weasel out of it somehow, and if not, are just overcome with a desire to screw over your team. Serious, self desctructing= HORRIBLE play and won't teach anyone anything except that you might have proclivities to controlled substances.

/hypocrisy.

[forbiddanlight]

Hypocritical? Most likely. Strategic? That can be debated, but I think so. Will it work? We'll have to see.

It's completely trashing all the advantage we had from the doctor save. Is there ANY pro town reason for you to lynch yourself if you know you are town? And saying teaching alvinz tunnel vision fails isn't an answer since that's just being selfish in a way. You "HAVE" to be right. You do realize that by the end of the game everyone's role will be known and alvinz will be proven wrong or right then, right?

[forbiddanlight]

EBWOP: Also, if alvinz is scum "teaching" him how bad tunnel vision is is a horrible gambit since it's GIVING the scum a lynch.

[forbiddanlight]

Yes, but if he is indeed scum, then I'm trying to out him that way.

Can you explain how lynching yourself outs him as scum? And if you are basing it on his "slip", that's not a good answer.

[forbiddanlight]

Let me make it clear that if anybody other than me is willing to go after alvinz95, then feel free to do so, but I've stopped believing him a long time ago. That's why my vote is where it is. But if I do this, I am doing this KNOWING it is a drastic measure for my case that probably could have been settled elsehow. I am a gambling man—probably more so than I should be. But this is a last resort.

I'm after alvinz as well, but not as vestedly. I'm also a gambler. It's just I only gamble when I'm pretty sure I'll win. I just make sure that that happens more often than not. My luck tends to be really good. Honestly, there is no reason to self destruct, and while for the most part it's a null tell, it could be argued as scummy for trying to look pro town by being willing to sacrifice yourself on something you don't think you'll have to follow through on, etc. Seriously, do you think you'll get a majority against you with me hanging out here? I doubt it. It's a safe gambit and I don't like it. I just don't like alvinz more right now.

[forbiddanlight]

alvinz95 has been tunneling in on me all game. Most of his other suspects have something or other to do with my case. But if I am town... then what? He's not backing himself up.

Doesn't make him scum, just possibly misguided or possibly scum. It ends up being a meta argument. Personally, I like his lynch because he's not backing himself up. And you don't need to lynch yourself to prove that.

[forbiddanlight]

I must mention this as another point against you in the long-running list of inconsistencies that were outlined in my initial vote.

Explain? There's a difference. I'm already being voted by a lot of the town and wasn't precisely self destructing. My self vote was to prevent an impulsive self hammer to spite everyone. Even if it's selfish and not pro town I could see myself doing it because I'm frustrated, so I prevented that. Now there is hope that someone OTHER than me might be lynched, and someone who's been relatively scummy and weasled out of a lynch already. SC is coming out of the blue willing to kill himself for no real game except supposedly making alvinz learn that tunnel vision is bad. That's not worth a townie life.

alvinz95 needs to learn the difference between knowledge and confidence. If by "I know" he meant "I'm almost certain", then he should have said that so it wouldn't be ambiguous so I wouldn't accuse him of a slip or a softclaim or whatever the heck it is.

Nah, I like the psychological effect of I know. It makes your case sound more solid if it has a semi firm foundation. His doesn't, but that's beside the point.

[forbiddanlight]

That said, FL seems to be posting much more pro-town content than before. This isn't going to dissuade me from voting her, as twilight logic doesn't apply and there's a good chance that she's deperately doing anything she can to avoid being lynched today.

So, anyway, what happens if as the day goes on I consistently post pro town content? Are you just at the point where no matter what I do I get lynched? Why does this sound DANGEROUSLY close to policy? It isn't, I'm sure, but it's sure wrong. This game is not a black hole. There is no singularity of scumminess where you can say no matter what you do you are going to be lynched. To say so is being incredibly pig headed and liable to cause town loss.

[forbiddanlight]

@Forbiddanlight, I'm going to try to get one of these up too, but could you post a PBPA of Skillit's posts, much like sthar8 did with you, with a Noise to Signal ratio? I don't mean to give you any sort of wiggle room here, I just want to know if you have something behind your view of Skillit (or the way he posts) or if it is just baseless suspicion.

Have you read any of my posts? I already did an PBPA. May not have been noise to signal per se, but it was close e fucking nough. Everyone found it stupid. So, screw it, you can find it your own damn self.

Finally, forbiddanlight, do you think that quoting someone out of chronological order is a bad thing?

Because it's a great way to make a disjointed progression of suspicions to fake an inconsistency.

[forbiddanlight]

Well fuck all of you then.

Vote for...

Just kidding.

MOD THAT IS NOT A VOTE!

Anyway, moving along, have fun losing town. Fucking up the doctor's advantage was the only thing you accomplished today. I hope you all die in a fire of false accusation

Go fuck yourselves. I'm done with this shit.

[forbiddanlight]

Nyeh, that's actually what happens when I come home in a bad mood and decide the greatest idea in the world is to check on my mafia games. I apologize for the language but not the general feeling behind it.

[forbiddanlight]

I'm sorry but that post seemed like a desperate attempt to pull more votes off or just a rant in disgust on how you died.

Nah, rant in disgust basically. You all are going to kill me, and I'd do the deed myself. Still half a mind to, but I'll restrain my impulses just so some other moron can hammer me so I have 6 idiots to look at instead of 5. I've already expressed my opinion in my sig, though I may clean it up.