Mini Normal 2181 | College Basketball Players | Game Over

[skitter30]

can you not do that now with the assumption I'm town and see what you come up with?

Still gonna flip town ^

[skitter30]

I have little interest in pooky. I'd vote elements to prevent a noflip at deadline but i dont think he's flipping scum

Ffery i hope ur closet situation is ok

[skitter30]

It makes sense? That's what prompted the sr

[skitter30]

That's ehat i thought he was saying ^

[skitter30]

Oh dear. Hope the rest of the process goes smoothly

[skitter30]

That is, uh, not a good development

[skitter30]

Sigh

Arrrrright then, Pooky, who the hell is scum? We have aborted a dozen wagons already, skitter30 is controlling the town with her charismatic indecision.

I am very good at that
But tbf i'm not undecided, i made my opinions fairly clear

[skitter30]

Still like my bork vote

[skitter30]

i am very unhappy with this outcome

[skitter30]

Just hammer elements dgb

No!!! No!!!! Stop it!!!!!! He's tooooowwwwwnnnn

you do a good impression!

[skitter30]

Plz no hammer before fanfic

[skitter30]

Prism and Skitter are suddenly OK with the yeet they so loudly protested?

Uh

[skitter30]

I'm not sure how you would tell that but if that's the case someone should pm implosion

[skitter30]

Prism and Skitter are suddenly OK with the yeet they so loudly protested?

Uh

And i just want to say that this is grossly inaccurate

[skitter30]

I've been opposing an elements wagon all day. I'm not sure how you could have possibly missed that

[skitter30]

If you mean irl today, i didnt have loads of energy for mafia today

[skitter30]

Indeed

[skitter30]

vla for a bit, covid exposure and feeling sick

Sooooooooo abt that elements wagon, amirite?

VOTE: bork

{Bork, ffery, dgb} is where i wanna vote today

[skitter30]

And did anyone get the fn message?

[skitter30]

You prob should have waited for prism to claim it
I still dont really see crumbs, and i think that doc + jk is unlikely

Can i interest u in voting bork?

[skitter30]

I mean, you're being scummy. If i shouldnt read you that way, what am i missing?

[skitter30]

Sigh
UNVOTE:
I hate it but the defeatist 'vote me' thing is probably +town for her. Can we vote bork now

[skitter30]

I never crumbed doctor. I am an odd night vanilla cop. Vaxkiller is not a PR regardless of alignment.

Jk++

[skitter30]

Whoops, when i said jk++ i meant pyp x|y, the iteration that just ended

[skitter30]

So scum have to have some sort of pr with the jk + rb
And vax isnt it

The setup is weird and i'm surprised we arent seeing things like loyal whatever

Ben can only be scum with exactly prism, and cabd did not jk ben or the scum that did the killing

[skitter30]

I dont think that's the right question to ask given ur position in the gamestate

[skitter30]

Fair but either way given that it's not a helpful question

And to be clear i'm not unvoting cuz of the claim, i'm kinda dubious, but for the defeatest self vote etc

[skitter30]

Pooky can i interest u in voting bork?

[skitter30]

Realizing i dont hate the thought of voting you + i dont townread you + your reaction to the elements wagon while it was happening was gross + i believe there's scum in the Russians

And of course i'm going to lobby, how else am i going to make things happen?

[skitter30]

Also the fact that dgb claimed really isnt that important or ai imo

Pedit well i wouldnt object to a 'dart throw sure' vote either

[skitter30]

VOTE: elements

I mean after calling for pooky for forever where did this come from again?

[skitter30]

Again, i really dont care abt vague mechanical speculation. The self-voting thing was town, and that matters to me a lot more

Oh i just figured out what scum have, strongman most likely. It's kinda balanced? Idk i dont have enuf pieces so its hard for me to say

[skitter30]

There was scum on elements (or at the very least didnt object to elements), i am very, very, very confident given how the eod gamestate went yesterday

Cabd is town
Not science is meh but mena was town so i wont worry abt it too much
So the people who loudly gave their blessing arent the scum who were supporting it, which means we need to look at the people who were ambivalent/throwing 'eh whatever' votes, which in my mind are you and ffery

[skitter30]

Realizing i dont hate the thought of voting you

I'm usually only at the "hey player X, vote Y with me" until I'm well past the "I don't hate the idea of voting you" point

Well, i townread you the least and i'm at least partially doing this to try to gauge how difficult it will be to wagon you, so this is what i'm doing rn

[skitter30]

literally the post before:

Bork get on elements please.

Where was pooky going exactly for how many days at this point?

I didn't have a townread on elements at that point in the game (or really ever outside of some really early stuff)

And again, this is kinda exactly the approach that i imagine scum would take at that juncture

[skitter30]

Why are vax and ffery town?

[skitter30]

I'm not really sure how i feel abt that pool (and no, not inherently because i'm in it)

[skitter30]

She did the exact same thing as town in pyp plz dont scumread her for that

Can i interest u in bork by any chance?

[skitter30]

My point is that i'm not convinced we win voting through that
Yesterday we were saying the same thing abt elements/bork/pooky and i dont think the solve is exactly bor/pooky

[skitter30]

If ur talking to me i have no idea what ur talking abt

[skitter30]

You're like in the tier above bork and ffery and i still have a residual townread on u, so you're lower priority than them rn for me

[skitter30]

Hello! Can i interest u in voting bork?
If not i would like to hear where you so want to vote today

[skitter30]

Idk

I’m currently debating if I think Cabd targeted Elements n1 and not peta

The thought did cross my mind. I also looked for n2 but didnf see it

[skitter30]

I have no clue why everyone is playing the waiting game as though outing reads/thought processes is more beneficial to the scumteam than the town one.

You're getting my unfiltered thoughts from me!

[skitter30]

And if I get voted out after the very obvious T/S interactions with syry then y’all are somehow even further off a cliff than myself, so yeah

You're not anywhere close to being voted out, and i wouldnt let it happen even if you were

[skitter30]

I'm just gonna go one by one on this i guess

Ffery, can i interest

you

in this fantabulous new bork wagon?

[skitter30]

Ok, why pooky over bork?

[skitter30]

Whooo i'm getting close to proving my point. Exciting!

[skitter30]

The fact that literally everyone was fine voting elements yesterday, and there was an abundance of votes for that wagon, and i currently have *checks notes* two votes for bork plus a few halfhearted maybes even tho literally nobody is townreading him

I think that points to bork!scum

[skitter30]

Heck the fact that it coalescened on elements and not bork yesterday points to bork!scum

[skitter30]

Sigh
*coalesced

[skitter30]

Ok and thoughts on the fact that I'm pushing you just now?

[skitter30]

going back to 4007 I'm curious to see what alternative way to expected that to play out.
Also: What alignment do you think pooky is?

Push pooky harder, if that was a push you felt more confient in, instead of letting it slide and hopping on elements

Pooky is like in the tier above you and ffery

[skitter30]

Push pooky harder, if that was a push you felt more confient in, instead of letting it slide and hopping on elements

I think you are drastically overrating the level of confidence I have in my reads

Ok but that's a problem at this stage. And how are you reading my push on you again?

[skitter30]

Ok but that's a problem at this stage

you're telling me.

And how are you reading my push on you again?

i think town - i think i like the way 4006 reads, but you're gonna miss here

VOTE: pooky

Ok but if i'm going to miss i need you to show me where i'm wrong and to explain what would be a better vote, because otherwise i see little reason to change from my current course

[skitter30]

Becauss i think everyone feared cabd more than the crumbed pr, so there isnt a helpful answer really

[skitter30]

buuuuut, maybe I shouldn't town read him for seeing town me.

I dunno. On one hand scum!brok could just be keeping me around for late game fade or lylo, where im not that great at. Or maybe its genuine town looking.

Its a p meh post.

[skitter30]

I dont think that's the right question to ask given ur position in the gamestate

I don't like this. They have have every right to ask questions, and im saying this as referring to the game being played. Like why WOULDNT we want to ask ourselves this question skitter?

And to clarify i wasnt saying they shouldnt ask questions in a general sense, i was saying that *because of her position in the gamestate* i think that scum feared cabd more than her (even with the crumbed pr), and that that would hold true for most scum, so this particular question wouldnt really go anywhere

I didnt mean it in the way you were thinking, vax, and it honestly didnt occur to me that it could/would be read that way

[skitter30]

It was a "shut up" and a smack across the face.

Sorry :/ that absolutely isnt how i meant it, and i didnt mean for it to come off that way. I feel bad, i'm sorry

[skitter30]

That's l1, plz no lolhammer etc

[skitter30]

It was a "shut up" and a smack across the face.

Sorry :/ that absolutely isnt how i meant it, and i didnt mean for it to come off that way. I feel bad, i'm sorry

Understood! No harm done.

[skitter30]

Urge to burn ... bork?

[skitter30]

UNVOTE:
For a sec

[skitter30]

I dont get where the urge to burn came from?

And i suppose i wont get a truthful answer out of this, but eh: does scum!you kill town!cabd who is townreading you?

[skitter30]

Hmmmm ok
Let me mull that over and digest for a bit. The timing is like ... niggling and feels a bit off so i'm now feeling a bit cautious

I guess r.e. cabd what i'm getting at is do you think you can maintain his townread

[skitter30]

? Sorry i'm not following

[skitter30]

Ohhhhhhh i see you did that in your bad post in the newbie

[skitter30]

In this game, I've done my best not to give him emotional content to "sign off" on. And he's not pushed me very hard about my vaguely expressed concerns, especially after day 1.

I feel like I sort of launched this approach to reading him almost from the beginning, though I didn't come into the game with this as a plan for sorting him. And I also haven't pursued it as strongly as I should have, especially day 2.

Can you quote a few specific posts/times throughout the game where you feel you where taking this approach to him and/or where you feel like his response to you was off

(I.e. one or two examples of both would be helpful)

[skitter30]

I mean literally anything would be a better vote and I don't know how to effectively communicate that to you

I don't feel like pooky is attempting to solve the game; he has put some reads down but I don't see sufficient analysis coming about any of them and I doubt I'm going to find anything more substantial than "I don't like the attitude behind literally any vote he's made this game"

I don't know where else to look. I think noddy, you, ffery, vax are all reasonably town. DGB being a fourth PR claim is something I'm considering but if she is what she says she is I think she set up the ways to prove that from the getgo pretty well.

do you think that my assumption that there's scum in the cohort is incorrect?
also i agree that ffery's timing for outing her suspicion of you is suspect

[skitter30]

do you think that my assumption that there's scum in the cohort is incorrect?

because cabd is dead or because some other reason?

?
i mean i think that in the living cohort there is probably scum. do you agree with that assessment y/n?
not sure what cabd dying has to do with it

[skitter30]

i mean ultimately that's where i'm going, yes
from my pov that's the simplest explanation for the fucky gamestate, and of the three, i think it's most likely you (a lot of that is riding on cabd swearing that ffery is town but like i independantly do not townread her)

like if you have an alternate explanation for how this game (esp. day2) have played out, i'm happy to hear it
like i'm also not super happy that you're kinda just settling for pooky when we know there has to be two scum alive also

[skitter30]

Skitter, can you give a more concrete outline of what you mean by "gamestate"? What are the confounding factors/conclusions/assumptions being made about the past here?

it's like a ~nebulous~ concept that i have a very good sense of in my head but is very hard to put into words
but i shall try

basically, yesterday i tried very, very very hard to find a wagon that i didn't hate, and couldn't. all the options felt wrong, and didn't make sense together as a coherent scumteam no matter how hard i tried. usually when i feel like that it's because the entire scumteam *isn't* in the group of people that i'm looking at - one of my assumptions in clearing somebody is wrong and that's why i can't make a coherent scumteam out of the people in the scumpool

to me, the obvious assumption that was wrong is that the entire (living) cohort was scum free because that's what placed the limiting factor upon available/possible scumteams. once we listen up that assumption it's possible to look at the game and have it make sense holistically

yesterday's gamestate toward eod (i.e. namely that long slow inevitable slide toward what i was very confident would be a town!elements flip) basically happens in my experie when scum are super content with the gamestate and have little incentive to, like, do anything (which was proven right upon the actual elements townflip). to me that points to scum being in people who just didn't care abt where the wagon was going and were happy to let cabd/notsci make the decisions

when you put those things together you the names 'bork' and 'ffery' pop out, and that's why they're my number one suspects today
does that kinda explain what i'm thinking better?

if bork doesn't like that conclusion i want to know what scum were doing yesterday while watching elements happen (second point) and why he's basically coming down to 'i have some reason to townread like everyone except pooky and prism so i'll vote pooky' (first point)

and just overall his reads today are, well, kinda meh and uninspiring and just feel like where scum would be pushing - pooky and prism are a lot easier than, say, notsci (or myself). and since i can't really follow *why* he's come down to that conclusion it makes me wonder if there really is anything to it beyond 'those are convenient reads for me to have rn'

[skitter30]

bleh typos: *loosen up that assumption

[skitter30]

settling

kind of a weird thing to say. how am I setting? I am voting my strongest read. Don't know why that changes regarding the number of scum left

like if you have an alternate explanation for how this game (esp. day2) have played out, i'm happy to hear it

What exactly are you trying to argue here? Even if I did understand why the gamestate makes them more likely to be scum, I don't feel like I need to have an alternative explanation even if I don't agree

i feel like i answered these but if i didn't lmk and i'll try again

[skitter30]

ffery that's a very content-y post so let me just reread and process and will get back to you
i guess my biggest question atm is why have you been letting your bork concerns slide till just a few hours ago?

[skitter30]

Also to some extent you being the one who was still pushing him didn't sit all that well. Which is not a rational thing, but it's there anyway.

i mean from my pov that's +scumpoints, not -scumpoints
(not inherently that *i* was the only one scumreading him, but more that there was only one person scumreading him and it just wasn't getting traction, which is weird when you compare it with elements)

[skitter30]

First, I think yesterday was a great chance to just whiteknight/refuse to be on the wagon given that enough town were willing to just shut their brain off and vote with their friends. The fact that you seem to be looking primarily onwagon kind of confuses me. This might be just a difference of opinion, but looking at this from my perspective:

The offwagon squad was me, you, DGB, benhalkum, and Elements. Ele was town. Ben is confirmed town/can only be scum with me. This is what makes me think I actually might have to deal with you being scum and run interference instead of putting it off until the end of time. I've never thought you were very town to begin with (most of your positioning has felt extremely strategic to me), and with the Elements flip I'm much more skeptical for this and the PoE narrowing to begin with. Part of me says "Who cares? Just let her steamroll.", part of me does want to run interference.

Second, with the above in mind, and the knowledge that I have openly refused to reread you despite promising to for literally like a month now, you just......really aren't worried about it. I'm not in your PoE/high priority is plausible. I'm sure if I asked why you'd be able to cook something up without much trouble. But leaving me be is extremely beneficial for scum Skitter.

ok a few things:
- it is absolutely in my scumrange to sit there yesterday and wk town!elements, so no particular complaints with that read/fear/complaint.

- i'm not looking primarily onwagon, in that it's not a super relevant piece of information for me. honestly offhand i don't know who was on and who was off. ffery/cabd/bork and ... i don't know who the others are. it's not about who ultimately ended up being on/off to me, it's more abt how they were approaching the wagon and how much they resisted it. and again, bork and ffery both occupy that 'ehhhhh token resistance but cabd/notsci wanted it so whatever' niche that i imagine scum occupied yesterday

- (aside i'm p sure that bork was offwagon day1 too? if yes that also points more to scum!bork than scum!ffery)

- also looking at the list of people who were off ... just isn't that much room for scum there, it would have to be exactly you (and/or with ben)

- the thing is that with my poe ...i feel like it makes a lot of sense, i'm explaining how/where i'm arriving at my conclusions, and very little has happened to indicate that i'm wrong, so i feel p comfortable with it. like if i'm wrong i'm happy for someone to explain how and why but as of right now i'm just not seeing it. this is what the game looks like to me just now

- bork/ffery occupy a higher priority push than you do right now; for reasons explained above i have a lot of reasons to think there's scum there, and i don't have nearly as many to think/worry abt you. you're like on a lower tier priority once the scum in bork/ffery gets resolved. like rn i wanna take care of that, and once that's done, i can go and reassess and reevaluate elsewhere. i'm like 95% certain there's scum there, but i don't think they're both scum and so there's scum outside that group (i.e. in you/pooky/vax) but i mildly townread all three of you and just feel like at this very moment i don't need to make a determination which of the 3 it is because i'm already p confident i found scum elsewhere. it's kinda like once we take care of the bork-ffery scum i can focus and resort elsewhere but rn most of my energy is on this

[skitter30]

Prism(4) - borkerfkin, DrippingGoofball,

unwnd

, Vaxkiller
DrippingGoofball(1) -

benhalkum1

Vax Killer(1) -

Elements

Not Voting: None

hah bork was off

[skitter30]

?

[skitter30]

re: skitter I think you get my concerns, answer regarding me/Pooky/Vax is about what I expected, there's no real answer until I reread and make a judgment call as to how strategic it is.

We'll see how I feel about bork at some point.

fair enuf! i think reading just day2 will help give you the perspective you need, if that helps

[skitter30]

Ffery i guess the timing for when you've decided to pursue bork just feels a bit off to me still

[skitter30]

Who feared Cabd more than a crumbed PR?

Honestly a better question is why cabd was killed over ben

[skitter30]

I mean i have an answer but i think other people's answers would be more illuminating

[skitter30]

fn

[skitter30]

I guess i'm kinda just trying to figure out if i'm wrong on bork or not, and once i decide that i'll vote

[skitter30]

eh i'm not inherently opposed

[skitter30]

do we wanna optimize the order?
i'd want bork to start and then i guess idc and wouldn't mind popcorning

[skitter30]

you missed vax and i'd want ffery to be lower but idc that much honestly

ig my optimal ordering would probably be:
bork
ffery
prism
pooky
vax
you
me

but like i said i idc that much

[skitter30]

oh right lol

[skitter30]

and yeah like i said idc that much, i think there's max 1 scum in {ffery/bork} and i think bork is it

[skitter30]

vax has {dgb's result} claimedon him

[skitter30]

ok
i'm confused but like i said it doesn't really matter to me that much
but i want bork to start

[skitter30]

Lets have pooky go next, and then i can, and prism, and round off wirh notsci and ffery

[skitter30]

Vt

[skitter30]

i did. i only didn't once it get to l-1 to not end the day and i'm planning on puttin git back on soonish

[skitter30]

Yeah watcher softs went over my head, although i did notice today's

Why'd you want me to claim first? If scum in the current pr claims its prob dgb

Scum almost for sure have a strongman, i would imagine

[skitter30]

I am a chocolate townie.

much better than vanilla townies.

by virtue of being more delicious.

Also i appreciate this post!

[skitter30]

Fair enuf!

[skitter30]

Vote Count 2.01

Candace Parker, Tennessee 2004-2008

It is now Day 3. With 9 alive, it requires 5 to eliminate.

Borkjerkfin(3): PookyTheMagialBear, benhalkum, DrippingGoofball
DrippingGoofball: Prism
PookyTheMagicalBear: borkjerfkin

Not Voting(4): fferylit, notscience, Vaxkiller, Skitter30


Day 3 ends in (expired on 2020-12-31 15:33:07) or when an elimination occurs.

I doubt strongman. There’d be no point to all the stopping power

I still think alien. But I always think alien.

Alien i think is p rare - i think i've only been in a handful of games with an alien in them over the past few years. I still think strongman

If i'm right balance-wise, scum have a decently powerful pr, and i would suspect at least one of the pr claims are not town

[skitter30]

DGB probably draws the NK tonight

I also doubt this

[skitter30]

DGB probably draws the NK tonight

I also doubt this

Call me conf town and tempt the scum.

Dgb is my top townread everyone!!!!

[skitter30]

Yeah we can wait
Enjoy the holidays everyone!

[skitter30]

I just finished a trio of papers I've been working on/constantly dreading for over a calendar year. I'm overjoyed and relieved that this odyssey is over and sharing it with my friends isn't enough. That's all, thanks.

Oh wow! Good for you!

[skitter30]

Probably not gonna say much till prism comes back

[skitter30]

heya prism

[skitter30]

I read the bork ISO. They're not powertown at all but I see a few reasons to think he's not scum and the few to scum read him as likely stylistic. I can't really give backlinks since I'm on my phone laying down, I might later.

I'm skeptical of the early interactions with Syr but the interactions with unwnd were great. I'm on my phone and can't easily link but unwnd consciously tagged on to bork's characterization of me, and bork went out of his way to quote unwnd two/three times about me saying "deja vu", "are you me", etc.

All of bork's reads are plausible and progress well. The only questionable one for me is +town. He has a great post later on about Syr's facade beginning to crack but reverts to not wanting to vote the slot. Given that he townread Syr around this, this seems consistent to me.

I really didn't like bork's early game, and I don't like how bork holds off comments on entire slots (ex. With Ben/me Day) for extended periods but I can get over it. Both are likely stylistic.

His entrance into Day 2 as going aggressive on Pooky was fine, even if the back off was awkward this was explainable., but his Day 2 positioning around Ben/DGB were also stellar, consistent, and very plausible as town. I don't really have the same issues with his eventual vote on Elements.

I need a more specific reasons to vote the slot.

i'll take another look at his iso to see if i see what you see wrt unwnd/syr interactions
i guess for me the big sticking point is that while i agree that his elements progression *could* come from town, i think that scum's progression around elements looks p much exactly like that, and it's hard for me to handwave that away.
to me the key of solving this game is figuring out what scum were doing yesterday, and i think the answer is: let elements wagon slide through with token pushback. once we find the people doing that, we've found scum. bork p much exactly fits that archtype to me.
and i'm not sure i agree with your 'stylistic' reasoning for not giving much weight to the things you dislike abt his play

i'll take another look at his iso tho and get back to you

[skitter30]

Skimming looking specifically for Skitter's argument for bork I'm just...not really enthusiastic. Bork's timing on voting Elements was very natural. Bork was noticeably lost most of the day anyway after the Pooky meta derailed that (not that being lost is necessarily town), with a bit of aggro on DGB/Ben later.

Shifting the responsibility to bork to sell a better vote is pretty eh when your vote is PoE+gymnastics to justify the 1 in the cohort is scum.

Cabd/notscience got their way. Scum was fine with it regardless of who it was because Elements was town. Everything about bork's playstyle points to him holding off, and he did twice actively try to go on the offensive, once on Pooky once on DGB.

Given the lack of a more concrete reason to vote or be confident in bork, it greatly concerns me that you did not take a more serious look at the off-wagon crowd, and your progression on me has been really questionable. You've come up repeatedly with

very good

reasons to townread me between my reaction to you/bork Day 1, and unwnd's approach to me.

How did I end up dropping down to being with Pooky/Vax?

bolded: i don't think that was entirely what i was donig. it's more, this is the conclusion i've come to, but if i'm wrong, i'm happy to hear how/why and i'd like to know where bork think scum is anyways

italics: rn to me the game is divided into three (four) tiers (or, more accurately, this is what the game looked like to me when we originally ahd this convo, prior to massclaim):

pr tier: dgb, ben (basically was gonna punt that off for another day)
strong townread tier: notsci
contains a scum tier: bork, ffery
everyone else: you, pooky, vax

within the everyone else tier, it's ordered as: vax/you > pooky

i think there was a sort of misconnect in me explainign these tiers and how you were perceiving them. the strongtownread tier i literally don't see myself voting before/in 3way, wherein i'd have to reconsider him to figure out if i'm just very wrong
the tier below (i.e. you, pooky, vax) are town enough that i'm not super concerned abt you rn; i'd rather focus on the tier that i'm very, very confident contains scum. once we sort that out, i can concentrate on the 'everyone else' and 'pr' tiers
(and my money's still on dgb over it being in the 'everyone else' tier, but eh)

you were never a not-sci level townread, but since like late day1 you've been a strong enough townread that i've just not felt super concerned abt your slot. like i'ts not that you dropped so much as you never got to the same level as not-sci

pedit give me a sec, i'm working on it

[skitter30]

What I mean by stylistic is that the things I don't like about him are things like:
-Not mentioning me/Ben at all yesterday until I directly asked
-Dropping the push on me Day 1 when he thought he was pressuring scum
-Awkward disengage with Pooky after the no bus meta

The more I see from Bork as a player, the less convinced I am these are AI, and that he is instead much more reserved by nature.

ok so i think the simplest way to get an answer to this is:
@ffery would you agree with this assessment?

[skitter30]

Token pushback would literally be me. Bork's pushback was no token in that he didn't defend Elements really iirc, more just pushed DGB while being a bit annoyed by the AFK voting style of others.

i feel like he just acquiesced to elements when it looked like it was gonna be a thing tho
let me reread where you were because i don't remember getting that vibe from you

[skitter30]

Worth noting that I am also a PR.

I get that I am in a "not that concerned about you" tier, but understanding how legitimate that tiering system is, and understanding why exactly I am there, is the trouble for me.

yeah i said those were the tiers *at the time we had this convo originally like last week*

you've since moved to the pr tier, and it hasn't changed much, i don't think you're scum with ben or dgb and dgb is my bet for scum in the pr tier. like i think there's max one scum there, and that it's dgb
your claim also comes from town, and this whole convo also comes from town, so i'm just not that interested in you in the immediate future

wrt how legitimate the tiering system is: i mean idk? this is just how i'm viewing this game, and it's the easiest way for me to process where everyone belongs and how the game interlocks together. i don't feel like i need to deal with the 'everyone else' tier just yet when i have a tier that i'm p sure has scum in it

and again i think you thought the townread was stronger than it was? you were never notsci-level town, you were always below that (or, more accurately, that's where you've been since i started townreading you)
(and now that i think of it, syr's sheep of me onto you also doesn't come from partners)

[skitter30]

I literally spent the day openly saying "This wagon I stupid, I'm going to vanity, and I am going to explicitly say I will not even try to sell another vote."

let me read give me a sec. i honestly don't remember what you were doing

[skitter30]

This is dumb and I'm not hammering it.

I will absolutely vanity this.

i think you jsut take the hammer as scum
this is why your approach looks different to me than bork's - he took the opportunity to hop on the wagon, but you didn't.

[skitter30]

also the irony of you defending bork to me, etc

[skitter30]

I appreciate the clarification as to where I was specifically+within the tiers. Given your statements I was wondering exactly what the placement was, and if there had been a drop, I definitely wanted to know when and why.

it's more like this, if this helps:

(ben)
notsci

(you)/vax
pooky

ffery
(dgb)
bork

with ffery/bork having max one scum in them i think

[skitter30]

ehhhh we can maybe drop vax one level to form a vax/pooky level

[skitter30]

Counterintuitively, my concern is that instinctively, I feel I am higher than I should be, and much of your play dating back to the first vote on me, and extending to deferral/focusing on groupings, lines up with what I personally would have chosen to do as scum.

i mean there's only so much i can say to that: i'm town here, and those are what my reads are.
i can go over why i'm townreading you again if that would be helpful

[skitter30]

i think that would have been a super easy place for you to hammer as scum

[skitter30]

Me not hammering boils down to legitimately believing Elements to be town, and legitimately being a bit spiteful towards notsci/Cabd. I'm not about to pretend I have no scum incentive to doing so, or that my spite vanitying is a town beacon.

Regarding your last post, it is also an easy place for me to just let someone else do it.

i said i thought it was unlikely to come from scum ...

my sense of you (and who knows, i could be utterly wrong), is that you could lolhammer that as scum if you thought you could get away with it
maybe i'm wrong but that's the vibe i get

imma reread bork

[skitter30]

indeed
and like i am capable of positioning myself quite nicely as scum so like yeah i get the paranoia, i get variations on that theme a lot

and honestly i'm not sure that this dialogue even happens if you're scum so

[skitter30]

yeah exactly, that's what i'm looking for - that's what i meant by token disagreement - like protesting a bit but hops on towards the end

[skitter30]

ideally the latter, but more that you asked for the time and i'd feel bad ending before you came back since you were busy

[skitter30]

when you reread bork's iso, what did you think of his fight with you from way back when?

[skitter30]

Can we walk this whole fucking thing back and get back to why unwnd is scum other than "syr seemed demoralized after the shitposting phase stopped" because I still feel like that's what all this shit boils down to and I am utterly uninclined to move there

noting

[skitter30]

ok upon skimming bork!day1 i think his interactions with syr are maybe anti-partner-y but idk what you see in bork/uwnd that makes you think they can't be partners

[skitter30]

prism i appreciate this dialogue - i'm gonna circle back to this / bork's iso a bit later tho cuz i'm getting a headache

[skitter30]

Sounds good, me too. Thanks for the patience if you're town sitting here while I just go "but ur positioning" for three fucking weeks.

I've got to run into town for a bit anyway.

i promise i'll circle back to the bork iso, but ot may not happen till tomorrow (irl)

[skitter30]

ehhhh we can maybe drop vax one level to form a vax/pooky level

reasoning?

Prism has been very, very town here

Its less abt vax and more abt prism

Ffery i feel very underwhelmed by you rn

[skitter30]

vax who do you want to kill today?

[skitter30]

thanks ffery, i appreciate that
prism i'm circling back to bork's iso

[skitter30]

i *think* that ffery's wall means that the things prism called out as being stylistic are probably, in fact, ai? unless i misunderstood that

[skitter30]

besides the person who's trying to bully me out of the game (I'm trying to push past it) can someone else please engage w/ me because honestly i don't know what to fucking do here other than just not post

bofk if i'm wrong i would like to see how so that we don't mislim you :/

[skitter30]

i have a very, very, very hard time seeing scum-prism at this juncture tho
i do understand your frustration r.e. prism's attitutde towards you, but i don't think he's just ad-homming you - he actually just had a massive post like yesterday saying he disagreed with my scumread on you ...

[skitter30]

ok but if he really wanted to mislim town!you why bother going through that in the first place?

[skitter30]

my biggest hypothesis is so they could claim conscientious objection when i flip town (i agree w/ you that I don't think anyone would've found it awkward for prism to just hop on me w/ literally no justification in the moment) but honestly now the better explanation tomorrow post townflip will be that prism just hated my face and and to get rid of me to continue on (thor!scum literally used this exact argument against me a long time ago)

re: @skitter

this isn't super convincing tho :/

[skitter30]

ok but if he really wanted to mislim town!you why bother going through that in the first place?

i mean shit flip this around; i clearly saw the post i quoted where Prism decides to be charitable, why do i rock that fucking boat either (considering i know that empirically every time i do we get into it)

i don't know
maybe it just pisses you off as either alignment
to me it's more compelling to ask why he backed off yesterday

[skitter30]

like i don't want prism to hide 4344 in all the other stuff: that very clearly reads to me as a tactical angle to get me out of the game seeing where i came out against this pseudo-olive branch that game out late and doesn't seem to be particularly concerned with what i flip

but he didn't need to make the about-face in the first place, scum!him can just hop on like thursday of last week when i first started campaigning him for his vote ...

[skitter30]

to me it's more compelling to ask why he backed off yesterday

which i also did and got 4344

you didn't ask that tho ... you just entered the thread/the convo with him kinda aggro and he responded that way too

[skitter30]

i try not to throw vitriol :/
i make a point of not doing that

[skitter30]

you're right, i absolutely did do that (and i'll admit a lot of that was fueled by my reacting to 4309 and I don't know what to tell you; I lot of what I read from Prism about me initially read to me like "maybe it is town but in order to townread here you need to assume that the braining isn't so good"; I realize communication is a two-way street and maybe I need to not react in the moment as so that my tone won't be as overly aggressive; even so, i still think my tone was sufficiently interrogative not to immediately get that sequence that i got

ok but did you think that you asked abt why he backed off of you? i'm confused ...

[skitter30]

This is a further reason why borks town. Now is not the time to white knight, now's the time for scum to start/jump on a wagon.

but you're very unlikely to get wagoned today tho ...

[skitter30]

skitter where is your head at?

i still feel p good abt scum-bork but i feel like i owe him and prism a read through the iso, which i have not yet done

[skitter30]

to just the relief of finding it.

i'm very happy you found it

[skitter30]

happy cake day ffery!

[skitter30]

You officially suck at reading me, Remilia.

maybe
but that doesn't sound like something someone who thinks i'm scum would say
and why would that make me scum?

this feels a bit anti-partner-y

[skitter30]

You officially suck at reading me, Remilia.

maybe
but that doesn't sound like something someone who thinks i'm scum would say
and why would that make me scum?

I will take the mask off for just a moment.

Bork.

I am shitposting.

Shoo.

#resumefuckery

you think this whole interaction is partner-y?

[skitter30]

rereading bork i'm kinda surprised to see how much of his iso is abt the prism fight. he could maybe be really pissed off ig but in retrospect i'm not sure why it keep becoming a thing
and i'm just not seeing loads of solving-ness tbh? like even today i would expect a bit more, ig he gave up and that could come from both alignments but like

VOTE: syryana

that's E-2, by my count. (notsci, cabd, pooky, ffery, me)

if this flips town I'm just basically straight up only looking here tomorrow

hmmmmmmm

Can we walk this whole fucking thing back and get back to why unwnd is scum other than "syr seemed demoralized after the shitposting phase stopped" because I still feel like that's what all this shit boils down to and I am utterly uninclined to move there

this is not good

VOTE: elements

pooky's been avoiding that elements wagon despite calling them in their elim pool but is very eager to shift onto me when asked to

what's vc?

like this elements vote basically morphed from 'elements is towna nd i wanna vote pooky' to 'pooky's avoiding elements so i'll vote there' and it's kinda eh

[skitter30]

ok i'm not sure i actually got much out of it. i still kinda want to vote bork
maybe i'm confbiased idk

[skitter30]

VOTE: bork
l1 and all that jazz

[skitter30]

Notsci dont be too hard on urself: u were pocketed p darn hard. We in the dead thread had the game mapped out for a couple of weeks now, and this was p much exactly ffery's winning trajectory, and she carried it out supremely well; ffery your ate game is on point

~

Like prism most of my thoughts are in the dead thread. Playing this in parralel with tenet was quite frustrating because a lot od my criticism of that game occured here as well, albeit on a smaller scale.

Your wine club dynamic is quite frustrating to play with. You townread each other waaaaaaay too easily, are susceptible to pockets, and refuse to vote each other for what looks to me like little reason

Cabd took ffery off the table days1 and 2. Neither notsci nor cabd would vote bork day2 for basically no reason, and notsci did the same day3

It makes the game a lot harder for everyone else when people are artifically removed from the pool. Its like in addition to working against the scum's inclination to not vote each other, u have to break through the wine club dynamic to get anything useful done

It's very frustrating to try to work around, esp when ur pretty confident its the town players who r making things so hard

Idk maybe these two games were exceptions and i got to witness two distinct perfect storms that are not generally indicative of how u guys interact with each other. But from over here this is what these two games look like to me

(This was abt both games in parallel .... figured i would wait for this one to say my bit since this one appeared to be imminently ending)

[skitter30]

Ffery u did good. Post day1 i think the only thing that felt super off ehile i was alive was the timing of your bork vote day3

But other than that u positioned urself perfectly and mimicked townie indecision quite well. Post bork's death ur nks and dayplay were exactly what they needed to be for u to win

[skitter30]

UNVOTE:
For a sec

whatever u did to prompt this ^
I wasnt thinking partners per se but the timing was off

U did good tho

[skitter30]

Also bork is a cool dude

[skitter30]

Ok but from my pov i didnt see those games

What i saw was:
Cabd refusing to consider ffery here
Cabd and notsci refusing to vote bork for basically no reason
You pocketing notsci

You getting pocketed by cabd (and subsequent fallout etc)
Multiple slots refusing to vote cabd
Multiole slots refusing to vote notsci (tbf i was wrong on this one)

From my pov in a mafia sense i spent most of the last month or however long it was trying to course-correct those things and shouting into the void and failing miserably because breaking apart all of those wrong assumptions proved to be very, very, very hard, esp when people wouldnt, like, fruitfully engage with me

Its fucking exhausting and not fun, and i will be avoiding u lot in the future
(Or more accurately, games with more than exactly one of you, i think by yourselves each of u are fine)

I probably should not have called ur slot honarary scum in tenet, and i apologize if i said anything over the line during that convo. from my pov my frustration over both games had kinda reached a tipping point

~

I hope u feel better soon, get ur endurance back, and that u enjoy ur bike trips

[skitter30]

I know it won’t mean much but I am taking your words to heart on it.

I appreciate that, ty

I dont really have much issue with ur lategame tbh, it was p clear u were pocketed and that happens to the best of us

Was more annoyed that i utterly couldnt get bork to happen day2, largely cuz neither u nor cabd would gainsay it.

I don't mind wine club being wrong. I mind wine club literally refusing to dialogue in good faith or remotely show interest in the opinion of outsiders.

I really think the hivemind tendency self-corrects after this game and tenet.

If I contributed to hostility or toxicity in this game, I'm really sorry. I tried to keep myself in check.

I think ur play here was fine tbh
I take significantly more issue with ur approach to tenet

~
Tbh by itself i dont think i have such a problem with this game individually. Stacked together with tenet there's a p clear theme tho

[skitter30]

Skitter I think in tenet I was so tilted by day 1 happenings -- the near-elim of notsci's hydra, the noraa blow-up, and then flavor leaf (both the replace-in and the lolwagon) that I never got my footing back. I'm unhappy with my play there, and I'm also very upset by some things that happened in the game. I don't plan to get into it with anyone, but that game experience definitely will impact future /ins.

Fair enuf
I've said what i needed to say after both at this point so i wont belabor the point anymore (or at least i'll try not to)

If u wanna talk more abt tenet feel free to pm me

And again i think ur play here was fantastic, and that u deserve the win

[skitter30]

And ur all cool peeps and i dont think any of u intentionally sought to do this, that's just kinda ultimately how it played out. I do appreciate that y'all are willing to listen to feedback, ty

[skitter30]

<3 was rooting for u in the dead pt

[skitter30]

gg everyone

Sry for my poor play.

you played very well vax


that last flurry of posts was incredibly townie and your d5 posting was probably the towniest out of everyone alive. <3

^

[skitter30]

Also npom can u ask implo to release the nrg review thread for this one?

[skitter30]

Wait so there was no rb on elements n1 at all lol
And ig it should have been obvious that we were missing a n1 fn message too

[skitter30]

Ah makes sense

[skitter30]

ig my overall feeling on setups is that even if it's balanced on paper, if a significant number of players found the setup frustrating or unenjoyable, it just failed as a setup

[skitter30]

(I feel obligated to mention: standard game balance in NRG is 3-4 moderately strong PRs against all goons, approximately. This game had 5 PRs, but most of them are notably weak: odd-night vanilla cop is almost useless, basically being just an extra PR for the sake of having an extra PR. Friendly Neighbor can conftown themselves, but only themselves. Roleblocker requires god-tiered luck to block a kill unless two scum die, and in this setup there's no way to distinguish between an rb blocking the killer, doctor protecting the kill, jk blocking the killer, and jk blocking the kill. The only two strong roles in the game are the doctor and the jailkeeper, but due to the ambiguity of what causes a kill to fail, some of their innate power is removed. Which I again would like to emphasize: this is a setup feature, not a setup flaw.)

like on paper this is technically true but it wasn't fun for the scumteam so i think it just wasn't a good setup

as town i thought we were probably overpowered but it personally didn't bother me so much
as scum i would have not been super happy to play against all the roles town had

[skitter30]

Is it specifically the combination of roleblocker + doctor + jailkeeper? Is it the vanilla cop not having any specific interactions with anything else? My current understanding is that the frustration for town is that they can never be sure why a kill didn't happen and thus their roles are semi-useless because they can never confirm anyone, and the frustration for scum is just not being able to reliably push kills through.

honestly as town i think rb + doc + jk is kinda, like, weird but i see where it was going and i don't particularly mind it as town
as scum i think they needed to have like a strongman or something because they needed to play around a ton of prs and there's a very real chance they don't get most of their kills off here. the fact that we didnt' miss a kill any night is, tbh, quite astonishing and i think if we ran this setup 100 times that wouldnt' be the most likely outcome

idk if you remember but my complaint in last year's TM normal game was p similar: it seemed like we couldn't get a clean kill off for the first like three nights iirc what we understood the setup to be, and we had to make suboptimal kills because of that, to avoid hitting all the prs/getting caught
(tbf iirc in that game scum had a misunderstanding of what the setup *actually* was, and the setup didn't *actually* suffer from that problem, but it looked to us like it did, so it ultimately felt to us like it did)

like by itself i don't find the town roles to be particularly troubling; i think that scum needed more to counteract it

[skitter30]

I just want to say again that I loved playing this game with all of you.

Thanks so much!

<3