Normal 2302: Magical Girls | GAME OVER

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VOTE: bristep

Hello everybodi

i imagine Emperor found scum pregame but unvoted as to give the rest of us a chance

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Oopsie is probably town

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Some true facts: I’m sitting on a wooden bench swing right now. This is my first second game on mafiascum. I’m alone in Atlanta this week for work. I rolled town this game. An Olympic gold medalist taught me how to ski when I was 5. I like long walks on the beach. I read large normal 243 last weekend. This vote is random.

VOTE: Merlyn

I'm going to guess enjoying long walks on the beach is the lie. You prefer colder climates (skiing)

That's undercut by the Atlanta statement though so maybe not

This isn't two truths and a lie, actually, is it. this is just all truths. Is it? Why'd you write this like seven truths and a lie though. Or eight truths.

anything interesting happen in Large 243?

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Elements what would you say determines your motivation to play a particular game? This is not a set up for a gotcha but a srs question.

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Oopsie is probably town

Tone or vibes?

I would say tone is how the person is coming across, like do they sound confident, angry, stuff like that. Probably also whether or not they sound like they're telling the truth with a particular statement. Reading tone through text is pretty iffy though.

I don't think vibes means anything other than how the way they post makes you feel.

Either way, i think oopsie comes across as town

The way oopsie acknowledges their reasoning on bristep is as tretch felt genuine to me

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There is only truth! No lies at all. The "long walks on the beach" one is a bit misleading, I suppose, as I don't particularly care for the beach itself. The walk is the part I enjoy the most. Here's another truth: I'd really rather not be in Atlanta right now; I'm looking forward to driving back home Friday.

curiouskarmadog and Hu Tao both had a lot of people scumreading them in large 243 and both were town. Also the on-again-off-again relationship between Andante and Flavor Leaf on D1/D2 was fun to read but that's not quite as relevant here.

That's fair the only thing about cold climates is long walks are not happening so frequently. At least in my case, i cant stand cold

Good to know

Geraintm is often eliminated as is DGB and i want to say Dragons, to a lesser extent. Gerain in particular is known for his "I

really

do not like day 1" playstyle which i've seen generate controversy a lot. He's also around in Xylo, a lot. I've seen him in so many of those. He's a hard read

DGB is a bit goofball ish with her reads sometimes. Dragons is usually actually pretty key as town but he's quiet and i want to say ive seen him go down for not having enough stated reads or being too quiet

everyone else is a new face to me

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I'm not sure if this speed is unusual for our group of players. But it's relatively slow

I know of a few players here who are usually more concise posters, though and I am not familiar with most everyone else

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curiouskarmadog and Hu Tao both had a lot of people scumreading them in large 243 and both were town. Also the on-again-off-again relationship between Andante and Flavor Leaf on D1/D2 was fun to read but that's not quite as relevant here.

How far into the game were they incorrectly scum read? And what were the reasons?

ckd was one of the first wagons on D1 because of an early case made against them by scum, vaguely claimed a negative utility pr due to being a prominent wagon and needing to go V/LA for a bit, then was on a lot of people's lists for the rest of the game until they were killed N5 and flipped as an ascetic townie. I think most of their heat came from scum though iirc. They were pretty clearly town to me when I read the thread!

I don't really remember why Hu Tao was SRd though. People just think they have scummy vibes or something. I think activity levels was an argument. D1 went on forever and they were a competing wagon there for a good bit of it. They survived to the end.

I hope I get a good grade on my large normal 243 quiz

This doesn't help me sort you so you can have a B

but you asked the question !!!! Lol

Actually, I do think towwy giving their impression of those players in a separate game could potentially be helpful

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I agree with you on that (not exactly a OMGUS but paraphrasing) although it pinged me as slightly scummy that your first reaction was "my post was a joke, I'll try not to joke anymore" as opposed to anything else

Why alter your play because someone found you suspicious? Plus like, you weren't really responding to what oopsy said more so much as reacting dejectedly, maybe to change oopsy's mind. Admittedly what oopsy was arguing was a stretch but i think it would have been relatively easy to argue against

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ooohhhh the game being slow is starting to set in now

Bristep what do you mean by "despite there being a few others to start the game off"?

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Elements what would you say determines your motivation to play a particular game? This is not a set up for a gotcha but a srs question.

I like playing mafia? A lil bit of chaos, hyperfixation, for this game in particular playing with Daisy coz she hasn't played a forum game in a while.

I think this response is villagery lol

I think mafia would be like hmm why is this serious question being asked? how can I appease that?

but he just didnt think about that lol

Lmao

Okay that's not really what i was asking

What I was getting at is the last couple times I played with Elements, iirc they flaked out during the first day after getting some heat. Do you recall Chara's Folly where you ended up being the D1 lim? For one, elements wasn't trying to shake things up and two she definitely wasn't the top poster by a wide margin. I'm curious what is the cause for the change.

Elements was scum in Chara's Folly but they didn't really make too much of an impression on me. Did you know anyone in that game? If you remember Chara's (i wont be forgetting it)

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I think both Elements and sheep are town

Elements' strategy is lousy though in the sense that you can get things happening without fucking lying

But I recognize the idea there and it's a pretty stark contrast to what im used to

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game so slow is really weird

It's day 1, what do you expect?

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Interesting you view it as a town leany thing to do. If anything I think the opposite. All Towwl has done is point out something that happened to two players in a game. It's early day one so there have been hardly any reads going around I need to grab my laptop to type this up

That's fair, just in the absence of content that we have in the game right now I appreciate it. By saying this Towwl is showing he has specific knowledge on these players, and by committing to telling us what that knowledge is, he now has to stick by it. Mafia imo wouldn't show their cards as quickly.

This is more or less what i was trying to say about what towwy posted yeah, it's slightly towny.

That's fair, just in the absence of content that we have in the game right now I appreciate it. By saying this Towwl is showing he has specific knowledge on these players, and by committing to telling us what that knowledge is, he now has to stick by it. Mafia imo wouldn't show their cards as quickly.

It is knowledge that is public, so it's not something special that's been brought up we couldn't have known otherwise.
Does saying that we know each other well and have played a lot of irl mafia together have the same effect? That's information about two players that the others problaby don't know, and also isn't available for them to find on the site. Therefore potentially showing more cards as it were

Sure it's public but what matters is people's perceptions. It doesn't matter that Hu Tao and (i forget) were town who got mislimmed if we never bring it up.

It's relatively easy knowledge to find sure but i don't see how this would net scummy. We're only talking about it cause towwy brought it up whether for good or bad.

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I think the way curious reacts to Elements is slightly towny, I don't think scum would see town shifting reads unpredictably and without reason and turn that into "I cannot believe i have caught you in a lie this early". I'd assume it's a gambit or a reaction test or otherwise something deeper, this seems more a genuine reaction

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Wait until curious sees DGB's reads

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So you’re saying element flakes out when scum?

That's my only experience playing with Elements, scum flake outs. I know it happened at least once but the other game I played with Elements was a flakeout, don't remember the alignment. In any case Elements being the most prolific poster is noticably a new look

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Lmao

Okay that's not really what i was asking

What I was getting at is the last couple times I played with Elements, iirc they flaked out during the first day after getting some heat. Do you recall Chara's Folly where you ended up being the D1 lim? For one, elements wasn't trying to shake things up and two she definitely wasn't the top poster by a wide margin. I'm curious what is the cause for the change.

Elements was scum in Chara's Folly but they didn't really make too much of an impression on me. Did you know anyone in that game? If you remember Chara's (i wont be forgetting it)

Was this question for me or sheep? I can't tell

You -- where was this "Lie deliberately" and "post the most" in our previous games, why now? I was also mentioning Chara's folly but that game is several years old i wouldnt be surprised if u forgot it. Its possible that game wasn't indicative of how you usually play

I think the way curious reacts to Elements is slightly towny, I don't think scum would see town shifting reads unpredictably and without reason and turn that into "I cannot believe i have caught you in a lie this early". I'd assume it's a gambit or a reaction test or otherwise something deeper, this seems more a genuine reaction

You seem to have a lot of town reads/leans. Do you have anything on the scum side or are you not bothering with that yet?

Spoiler: tangent: finding town

I largely think playing for scumreads early on is fruitless and tend to place a big emphasis on building a town core and eliminating the rest until more concrete reasons come up like votes on flipped wagons or role results.

Essentially I think it's more important that a group of players who have a high chance of reading one another by the end of the game who are also personal townleans of mine make up a large town pool. Then anyone who sticks out can be PoE'd. I would rather devote my time to looking for these players than trying to accuse people in hopes of garnering a suspicious reaction (To be honest, I'm very non-believing when it comes to a lot of scum tells especially early when scum can claim anything without their hand being forced much)

It's a lot harder for me to find scum than it is to find town although yes you could say that probability wise that makes sense. I think players should be read through whether what they are saying seems genuine more than anything else. Which is sort of a hard thing to define. I suppose I build up a large amount of people that make me believe what they're saying (regardless of whether or not I agree) and try to facilitate eliminating within the PoE.

Bristep's reaction to pressure pinged me as slightly scummy but im not as hot about it right now

UNVOTE:

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Im curious what DGB and towwy are reading that feels agendalike about me

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i guess you could say I more or less don't bother with that yet.

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Gera what do you usually try to do on D1?

I think I'm somewhat in the same boat as you where I think scum doesn't tip their hand very much in the first day. Nor do I think there are really scumslips or scummy D1 actions in 90% of cases. But that doesn't make the first day pointless, tons of lines in the sand get drawn even if they're a little imaginary

I think bristep had a defensive tone but him unvoting oopsie and especially accepting Oopsie's characterization of his meta being stoic and unaffected by reads despite that going against what he just did in his first posts

And I also think the "This isn't the time to figure out how I'd play as scum, I've played 4 town games a long time ago" comment was fairly genuine

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VOTE: Hu Tao

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On the other hand, Bri has less sussy things around em. Sure the out of character response on Page 2 is something, but Bri has essentially chilled out, let the game play on, and not shown their hand too much from there. On the other hand, Bri isn't doing anything to rock the boat bar the Page 2 stuff. With this slot I'm trying to discern if this is scum!bri letting someone else take the pressure/attention, waiting for the wagon to simply peter out, or if this is a town!bri that wants to calm down, recollect themselves, and start sorting through their own reads.

Your description of Bristep could really apply to quite a few players, at least as it pertains to chilling out and letting the game play.

You're right that Bristep actually has almost no reaction to his wagon if you ignore the first "i shouldnt humour" comment. You mentioned bristep playing stoicly though.

It could be letting the pressure peter oout but if bri is town im not sure i'd expect much different. So then why Bri over anyone else?

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Also sadly as much as I am suspicious of Bristep, that wagon is petering out and so my vote is ultimately gonna be more useful for us elsewhere.

UNVOTE: Bristep

Train is stopping now, will evaluate the possible wagons properly once I'm home.

I think u should come back, it was a top wagon before u unvoted

Is there anything new with bristep? I feel like him being a top wagon is stalling the game (or is it stalling because he's not reacting?) either way it's not going anywhere.

I'd vote Bristep over DGB or nulls but only at the end of the day

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Hu Tao has DGB done anything other than that first vote that you found suspicious? I have no idea how you're getting a read there

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Spoiler: tangent abt day one @ gerain

@karmadog

You are rightness had no good reason to vote them. I checked if I had a reason not to vote them,but as I didn't have one I joined everyone else

that was awhile ago, thoughts now? who is scum?

I have nonidea who is scum. How would I know who it is on day 1?

By talking to them gerain by talking to them

Or, if you're a nonbeliever like me, just display that you do not know who scum is through making one lukewarm guess after another while slowly building a bloc of towny people who seem like they're trying

I do believe that town can be readable even immediately

If everyone didnt play day 1 then day 2 would be day 1 basically. town of salem does this cause they dont have much dayplay. But in forum mafia the game's played thru conversations not night actions. Plus you can go back and read this day later when half of the game's alignments are known which can be useful. So thats why skipping the first day is disadvantageous

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Emperor is pretty null I feel like he's mostly (as has been pointed out repeatedly) asking questions to seemingly help inform his own reads, but he hasn't really given many other than Daisy town and Ele sus

Hu Tao i think you're ignoring what sheep pointed out (your dgb read mostly) in favour of talking about the other game -- it's not that important. I just want to know more abt that

LOL i just saw 280/299 thats good


Town


Daisy
sheep --- town


Elements
towwl curiousdog Dragons -- 0-1 scum


Merylyn, dgb, gerain --- neutral
Emperor

bristep
Hu Tao


Scum



I think Emperor is notable because he's posted a lot and has felt decently engaged yet at the same time hasnt really made much headway with reads.

This is the townest i've ever read Elements. i did skim the scum game they linked and there's a d1 contrast, they're being measured even when Frog starts an early 1v1 and they have a post where they want to be very clear about their reads. IDK i would just be really surprissed if Ele goes from careful scum play to intentionally posting bogus things then admitting to posting bogus things. town that thinks they're helping through questionable method is more believable

I would bet on sheep and Daisy

Towwl curiousdo g and Dragons i also significantly believe are town but not with enough confidence to bet

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@morjjng Tweet.

Day 1 there isn't anything to be gained. Wagons form with scum manipulating them.
People's reads are based on nothing, butbtheyvexpress them with such force how can you argue sensibly with them?

Day 2...some people will have information from their nughtbactions, it is no longer a blank slate. That is when I am happy to really start playing the game

If the wagons form with scum manipulating them then I would say that there is much to be gained on day 1.

That also doesnt really account for D1 scum lims those are not usually according to scum manipulation. There's a ton of things happening both from town and scum PoV and us postulating guesses about what that might be is useful

People's reads are based on nothing, butbtheyvexpress them with such force how can you argue sensibly with them?

Lmao you got me there

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And hey if Bri's agreeing with my logic there, it doesn't look great for em

And hey if Bri's agreeing with my logic there, it doesn't look great for em

Yeah that's uh... Why the hell did he DO that?? Damn.

The only thing bri admitted to was typically being a stoic player, which was a little bit of a contrast to how pushing him seemed to bother him early this game

Bristep could be scum there's nothing really to go off of

DGB and bri/HPE aren't scum together

Curiousdog is town

Hu Tao and DGB probably not both scum 1

Sort of notable that a lot of players scumread DGB i dont detect any discernable difference from her usual play, I feel like Hu Tao is stretching to vote her for 'OMGUS' but it was basically DGB's rvs vote. I can kind of see why someone might vote for posting a readslist for whatever reason (i recall someone did that earlier) but Hu Tao's vote is paper thin

VOTE: Emperor

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You were townreading me up until I stopped voting you in favour of Emperor? That makes no sense. My opinion of you hasn't changed.

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That's actually completely made up, I don't believe you at all

VOTE: Hu Tao

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For reference i think you and emperor were roughly on an even playing field but Emperor has been gone and has a wagon on him so i thought it productive

You saying that you townread the post and then suddenly because i voted emperor that somehow invalidates what i said about you is ridiculous and very hard for me to take

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Can't believe the only response you had for me was "Emperor vote sus" I don't believe that for a second

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Lets talk about your 33% post rate about how u find DGB suspicious over any other slot

Or we can talk about how you're kind of suspecting gera but not really elaborating, or how you said you "Liked what you were seeing" from my post up until I vote emperor so you can make this weak sauce setting u pmislim argument for no reason other than that there's a vote and a suspicion in the same post for differnent players

WHat do you even want me to say about Empreor he hasnt posted since around halfway

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I'm really not sure why HPE is the uberscum to so many people

Emperor and Tao are both better options HPE feels hit or miss

Tao and Emperor i think are both lacking and also are kinda dipping

I think gera is town for switching his suspicion around so much it's like he's not trying to follow a goal it's more just he finds something he votes he finds something he votes . Even though i think he's completely wrong about Daisy

Hu Tao hyperfixating on DGB smells to me, just to drop it

Emperor just prod dodged the wagon on him

The worst crime from bri was awkward defensive posting combined wit hghosting. I guess. I don't really know how to read HPE but it is sort of notable that so many people had snap scummy reactions to it entering the game

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I agree that HPE's reaction didn't fit with what bristar had admitted to ("You're more sensitive" "Yea", but HPE interpreted it as something worse prior and said something along the lines of "I don't know why he'd admit that")

But i chalked that up to not having read what it was yet, plus Daisy had made it seem like a pretty big deal. If HPE had been fully aware of everything i dont think it would have reacted the way it did

as much as I think bri could be scum i think you're confirm biased when reading HPE. If i squint rlly hard then saying something like "Why would he admit to that" without having read back is almost towny because it looks superficially kinda bad and id maybe expect more careful posting

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Gera you're "I don't like D1" but also you seem to find something suspicious about everyone I feel like you kinda get it tbh

Even if it's DGB's natural way of playing that is setting of your radar

She's sort of like a quantum computer, her reads exist in multiple states at once. u have to take into account the other dimensions

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186, MT thinks I am slightly town because of my reaction to Elements. Logic is faulty though. Bad Logic or trying to make friends? "I don't think scum would see town shifting reads unpredictably and without reason and turn that into "I cannot believe i have caught you in a lie this early"." If I was scum, and "caught" Elements (town) in a lie why WOULDNT I push that?!?!

MT, can you comment on this please.

Read unpredictability is usually something i associate with town. Contradictions in read progression are not exactly smoking bullets. You thinking that you've caught Elements in a lie feels like something you have to believe though. So i think your degree of certainty about that being meaningful is towny more than anything

if you're scum pushing inconsistent read progression i don't think you'd frame it like "I have cracked the case", basically

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Emperor and Hu Tao i think has at least one

HPE, Dripping, Fireb/Merlyn, gera has probably one

and at the very worst i think out of Curious, Elements, towwl and Dragons there could be one tricking me

Daisy and sheep are town

If I had to guess gamestate wise there is resistance to Emperor and also kind of Hu Tao but everyone in the game has pretty much bee n good voting bristar/HPE.

It is sort of interesting that neither wagon is voting each other -- Hu Tao has been suspecting DGB primarily. HPE i would kind of expect that either way though, it hasnt voted anyone yet and just repped in

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i can FEEL the town coming from sheep i forget what it was exactly but i felt pretty strong abt it earlier

Hu Tao you were like "I was reading your post and it was all in order until you voted Emperor" -- like you're saying that the bit of my post devoted to suspecting you is fine, but because I voted Emperor that suddenly invalidates me and you aren't even gonna mention anything abt it except that the emperor vote made you sus for whatever reason

not townreading it though I guess I misinterpreted

Basically what seems disingenuous to me is that you think my suspicion on you is halfway reasonable but you're acting like it can't coexist with voting Emperor

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Sheep seems pretty consistently towny to me

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I'm pretty fooled by the amount of thoughts that seem genuine throughout sheep's ISO and i largely agree with their scum pool

His reads change and he's evaluating, I don't know how to describe this other than seems like bleeding town

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i can FEEL the town coming from sheep i forget what it was exactly but i felt pretty strong abt it earlier

Hu Tao you were like "I was reading your post and it was all in order until you voted Emperor" -- like you're saying that the bit of my post devoted to suspecting you is fine, but because I voted Emperor that suddenly invalidates me and you aren't even gonna mention anything abt it except that the emperor vote made you sus for whatever reason

not townreading it though I guess I misinterpreted

Basically what seems disingenuous to me is that you think my suspicion on you is halfway reasonable but you're acting like it can't coexist with voting Emperor

Yes. Because it's like me saying how much I want to eat a hot dog and then saying BTW I'm going to eat a sandwich right now, maybe hot dog later. Maybe not the best analogy but makes sense to me :lol:

but no one was voting for u and people had just started voting for emperor

its more like...... i suspecct you're both fruit trees, and emperor just went into picking season

......

hmm

we'll nail the food analogy eventually

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UNVOTE: Until I read this

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In all seriousness, it is not remotely anything strange to go "hey i sus you" and then vote someone else in the same post. Is that kind of a 180? Yeah, but it's not like they DON'T sus you. It's just kind of a lame gotcha attempt when people can and will multi-task their thoughts/reads/votes in posts and there's nothing really AI about that as a concept.

I feel this is self preservation and you don't believe this

What does this even mean? It was quite literally a lame gotcha

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pedit: sudden burst of activity from HT as I write this. Maybe I'm a little sus of OD that she's on top of new activity the instant there's something interesting happening but also I guess I can't sus her that much since I'm doing the exact same thing. Whatever. I'm still posting this mess.

What's suspicious about being on top of new activity? Haven't I been doing that the entire game lol

With how quiet things have been we've all been doing it. Really it's easiest to just let the thread simmer, and I think just correct to do that when you're largely townread and town is slated to be voted out. But I shouldn't even be making this observation because it also applies very well to me lol

No u really should be controlling the thread if you're getting townread, as much as you can contribute, at least theoretically

Wdym by correct to let the thread simmer when you're townread and town is slated to be voted out

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Gut feeling don't really want to go HPE/bri because if theres been one slot that the thread has been somewhat cooperative about getting limmed it would be him and it, and we're still kinda on thin reasoning

I like that Hu Tao claimed a PR in general rather than the exact one i feel like scum usualy doesnt do that.

Hu Tao though -- why did you feel the need to claim?

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Tell me why scum would ever nightkill Hu Tao

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And investigative is the top thing scum claims under pressure to be honest

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In my experience scum does not kill players who claim PR on X-2

he'll be roleblocked or claim to be roleblocked and then you're at step one

I'm willing to wait though to see if that happens first but i dont think theres a scenario where hu tao ends up getting cleared for us

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I guess it's because there's 24 hours left that a claim would be necessary

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Gut feeling don't really want to go HPE/bri because if theres been one slot that the thread has been somewhat cooperative about getting limmed it would be him and it, and we're still kinda on thin reasoning

I like that Hu Tao claimed a PR in general rather than the exact one i feel like scum usualy doesnt do that.

I disagree.

Like with the general PR part?

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i get that its vague so you can cchange your claim later but scum would want to be more precise = more honest = more towny

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I don't really want to do that either again bristep/HPE has been so incredibly consensus this game and the reaction to Tao is towny

Emperor is a shot in the dark and Hu Tao has the potential to be helpful if he lives (or he could just be buying time)

I think how early Hu Tao claimed is probably noteworthy but id like to see him elaborate more on why it was necessary maybe

pedit: I did not really consider that, that's a fair point

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VOTE: Emperor

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UNVOTE:

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Roughly zero percent chance they're all telling the truth

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VOTE: Hu Tao

Not letting this go

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Yes I feel stupid for townbinning and ignoring half of Elements posts that was a me problem

DGb and Fire have very genuine reactions today

Sheep's vigilante argument is terribly convincing

Towwl i think is obvtowned, Oopsie, curious for the Ele interactions

That leaves gerain and Dragons. I thought dragons was towny enough but they were middlish defending Ele as towwl said.

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Roughly zero percent chance they're all telling the truth

The liar was vt!Hu Tao :lol:

Sigh lol

the Self preserving VT

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Gerain didnt really say anything about Ele

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VOTE: Dragons

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You could probablyt factor in that scum isn't sweating with the night actions, which i think probably implicates both gera and dragons to maybe a lesser extent

Despite what FB says he'd take scum seriously

And DGB more or less has the conviction to make me believe she doesnt kill HPE

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You could probablyt factor in that scum isn't sweating with the night actions, which i think probably implicates both gera and dragons to maybe a lesser extent

Despite what FB says he'd take scum seriously

And DGB more or less has the conviction to make me believe she doesnt kill HPE

I'd be careful reading into this too much. Ultimately this can all be WIFOM, especially since Firebringer and DGB are the ones heading that argument. And my trust there isn't big right now anyways.

Sure, i get that but is there a good reason to kill HPE over Emperor ever? i'm pretty convinced from what sheep is arguing that sheep shoots Emperor since he even mentioned it the previous day before vig claims how much he values vig

But for FB and DGB i'm hedging its more than likely they would shoot Emperor not just because they're saying so but because it seems like what scum should have done rather than clear HPE

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i would be surprised if you were sweating considering your relationship with D1

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its highly unlikely that Dragons is the fourth main wagon PR claim in a row now

Curious don't you feel like Oopsie was pretty harsh on Elements aside from that one time?

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Fire how is me getting ragey for no reason related to me being scum

I can recall getting angry at you for misinterpretting a post of yours to be more of a personal insult (it wasnt) but i took it that way once Either way it didn't really relate to our alignments did it

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Hm, i don't think that's right. I think i fly off the handle for nothing too often.

I am pretty demotivated but I'm town

i do not think there is any scum in oops, or fb, or dgb

Dragons is definitely lying

My last guess is gera

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Re towwl I disagree there's much incentive to let Dragons protect Emperor. Unless i guess Emperor shoots Dragons

But then you're introducing night interference for the gain of maaaaaaaaaayyybe Emperor living a little longer. Just vote suspicious claim

i don't believe *flops ears* is ever flying off any handles

the ears r working wonders then (>ω<)

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Tick tock

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I'm town sorry abt that

i trust the plan

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Thank u Shea Thank you everyone we played that game

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By the way I thought y ou were all very pleasant and fun to play w/ while it lasted :) even though haven't played with most of the list before

Hopefully play with you all again sometime