Open 148: Jungle Republic (Game over) before 800

[Yosarian2]

Confirmed

[Yosarian2]

Ok. Whoever is the last one to touch their nose and yell "NOT SCUM" is the scum.

Ready...go.

NOT SCUM

[Yosarian2]

Oh, I did. I was touching my nose while I typed that.

[Yosarian2]

Ok, so Sotty is not scum, that's good to know. Anyone else?

[Yosarian2]

Vote:fallen angel

[Yosarian2]

Real townies don't need to prove their alignment by doing silly things like touching their nose.

Of coure not. But I did catch a scum with that little trick, if you noticed.

[Yosarian2]

Right. My theory was that scum would be all paranoid about responding to something like that, in any way, for fear it would look scummy; I know I would feel wierd about blatently yelling "NOT TOWN!" as scum, whereas as town I might be more likely to just play along and have fun. So once it got going, my plan was to vote the first person who completly ignored the whole thing, on the theory that that was the most likely way for scum to respond to it; I'd expect town would either play along with it, or attack it, but scum would try to ignore it completly. And you were the first to not mention it at all.

(I have no idea if that's anything like a reliable scumtell, but who cares, it's better then a random vote.)

[Yosarian2]

(G*censored* D*censored* IT TO H*censored*! Not again...)

Huh? "Not again"?

What about those who respond, but don't participate?

Well, I didn't think that was a scummy response.

[Yosarian2]

Oh, yeah, that's the other reason fallen angel is scum, almost forgot; I dislike the mastin vote. Between ignoring the nose touching thing and voting for mastin, I like my fallen angel wagon.

[Yosarian2]

I voted him for voting himself and because he freaking said he was scum!

Yes, during what some people call the random vote phase, he said he was scum and voted himself.

Do you think he's scum?

[Yosarian2]

His play seems town enough, but he appears to be changing his mind every post or other, which does not sit very well.

I'm a bit confused by this. Being willing to change your mind is a town tell, IMHO; town should try to be somewhat unpredictable. That being said, I don't think I have changed my mind about anything yet. I did a silly "touch your nose and say NOT SCUM" thing at the strart, because it seemed like it's be more fun then a random vote, and I was also hoping hte reactions to it would be more telling. Then based on the reaction and the mastin vote, I voted fallen angel. I actually haven't changed my mind about anything yet this game, as far as I know; could you clarify?

[Yosarian2]

CJ, claiming was dumb, thats why you're getting yelled at.

Tarballs, voting him for the claim is dumber by several orders of magnitude.

(nods) I agree with OGML.

Unprovoked power role claim=bad
Voting a claimed power role on day 1=usually bad

[Yosarian2]

Yos, there's just one specific thing that weirded me out: after Tarballs posted, you declared that he was right about your minigambit, then directly after that, FA posted essentially the opposite opinion, and then you immediately declared

he

was right.

Well, tarballs is right that pro-town people usually don't need to declare themselves pro-town in the abstract case. In this case, though, especally in an early joking around way, it's completly harmless. Either playing along, or loudly refusing to play along, or attacking everyone who played along, are all rational pro-town responses to that; however, any one of those would kind of run counter to normal scum reactions, for different reasons.

(On a side note; in the last mafia meet last summer, Pooky actually caught me with this in a live face-to-face game; he said something like this, everyone else said "not scum!", and I hesitated for a second because I couldn't quickly think of how to respond. They lynched me for hesitating, and I was scum, haha.)

[Yosarian2]

In other words, blah blah blah, lynch CJ, blah blah blah, I'm a townie.

CJ's play errors aside; you do realize that you're trying to lynch a claimed cop (well, seer, same thing), on day 1, in an open game where we know we are 100% guarenteed to HAVE a seer role, and where there hasn't been a counterclaim?

Note: If CJ is lying, I am *NOT* saying that the "real" seer should counterclaim today. If CJ is lying, then we'll find out at some point, when the real seer either claims or dies; in that case, CJ is basically already caught scum, and there's no need to out a seer just to lynch him.

I don't really think that's the most LIKELY scenerio, anyway, my hunch is that CJ is likely telling the truth; in any case, lynching someone who claimed to be the town's main power role, in a game when we KNOW that rule exists and is pro-town, without a counterclaim, on day 1, is a terrible, terrible idea. Unless you're scum, in which case, lynching the cop today would seem like a good idea for you.

(Let me also mention, quickly, that while FA is my main suspect at the moment, we're in no rush to hammer, despite what CJ said. )

[Yosarian2]

FA seems pretty much like caught scum. Tell me Yos, what exactly do you expect to gain by delaying the lynch?

(shrug)

Fair question. At the moment, if FA is scum, I don't really have any feeling yet for who his scum buddy(s) might be; plus, we really want to lynch a scum today, or the numbers can get ugly fast. I don't want to draw the game out unnecessarally or anything, but I don't think we're in THAT big of a rush, and I wouldn't mind talking out any doubts people might have here about the wagon first.

I'm feeling the werewolf on CJ, contrarily. An inexperienced town player is less likely to kneejerk claim because the immediate threat of the scum targeting power roles. An inexperienced scum, on the other hand, would have a lot more difficulty inferring that it's a terrible idea as a real cop, and only see the upside of dodging the lynch, knowing they don't have to worry about nightkills (in this case only applicable to the wolves). It's pretty irrelevant till tomorrow, but with him hopping the easy lynch and trying to play the gut card, that's the impression I get.

Eh. If he claimed in response to a "claim or die" situation, I could see a newbie scum claiming cop, or any scum in fact if they were desperate and/or if they wanted to out the real cop.

In this case, though; I personally see newbie town claiming ALL THE TIME in situations where they pretty clearly shouldn't. I don't really understand why that is, other then perhaps Jeep's old rule that "everyone secretly wants to tell you what their role is", but it seems to happen a lot. However, lying and claiming seer in a game where there IS a seer, when you're not even in any danger; that seems like such a horrible move for a scum, I can't really imagine any scum doing it, even a newbie scum.

While it doesn't make me feel any better about FA.. the suggestion to lynch CJ, in terms of policy, seems pretty innocent to me; in ordinary circumstances, you would lynch a player that pulled something that ridiculous, and FA might not be familiar with the reasons you wouldn't lynch a claimed cop. They seem kind of duhhh to us, but how many mafia games has he played?

(shrug) I donno. Lynching a claimed cop in this game is such a clearly anti-town idea, and would so clearly be in the scum's interest, I could have a much easier time seeing a scum do it then a town.

[Yosarian2]

Can anyone explain the case on fallen angel? Was there even a case?

Eh. The biggest anti-town thing he did was that he wanted to lynch the cop on day 1 for OMGUS reasons.

[Yosarian2]

Yos, why would you answer that question when you know its a blatant waste of time and obvious active lurking?

Because the question was a trap, obv. So I figured I'd walk into it and see what happened.

[Yosarian2]

OK, for one, let's consider the reasons for votes on the fallen angel lynch.

Yosarian2 - Random Vote.

Nope, not at all. Not even a little bit. Nor were my reasons at all "random", FYA.

OGML has a good question; who do you think is scum, Khamisa?

[Yosarian2]

Yos, to be clear, was your reason for voting FA just the reaction to the NOT SCUM fun and for voting CJ?

My inital vote was based on the "not scum" thing and the Mastin vote; both of which seemed odd to me. Of course, at that point, it was just a "somewhat better then random" vote.

I also had kind of a bad feeling about the tone of FA's posts in general. When FA was trying to push for an OMGUS lynch of CJ, in a situation where it was pretty obvious that CJ was in fact the most important pro-town power role in the game, that made my vote a lot more serious. Granted FA was town, but that was still an incredibly anti-town thing for him to suggest there.

[Yosarian2]

OGML, why is is that you ALWAYS think I'm scum?

Anyway, I agree with you about Khamisa and tarballs are both looking scummy, and I'd be willing to go along with a lynch on either one. Kore, I don't really see the case on her.

[Yosarian2]

How were my reasons "bogus", exactally?

Also,

Vote:Khamisa

You've been given enough chances to do some real scumhunting.

[Yosarian2]

It was obviously not clear, since half the town asked for clarification. Don't turn this on us.

Who was this directed to?

[Yosarian2]

You know, last time I saw mastin as scum, he lurked like hell.

[Yosarian2]

You know, last time I saw mastin as scum, he lurked like hell.

THAT was NOT intentional. <_<

No, but my impression from the scum quicktopic was that you were lurking because you were worried, as scum, that you might say the wrong thing, and that it's much harder for you to be active as scum then as town because of that. So when I see you lurking a lot, like you were for much of this game, I start to wonder.

[Yosarian2]

@Yos2: WTF is up with your weird post? I don't even know what your talking about unless you and Mastin are wolf together. (Even then it makes little sense, but I can find that working.)

What?

I am suspicious of Mastin, because I have a meta on him that he acts like this as scum. In Lynch all Lurkers, a recently completed game, he lurked a lot as scum, and in the scum quicktopic of that game (which is publically avalable, if you care to see it), he made it clear that the reason he was lurking in that game was because he has more trouble posting as scum then as town.

How on earth does me being suspicious of Mastin for a good, logical reason based on meta make you think I'm linked to him, Wolfy? You need to explain this here.

I'm not really buying his explination here, either:

I can understand it, but I think this could be a subconscious thing: Because people expect me to lurk as scum and be active as town, as town, I will be motivated to lurk in order to garner suspicion onto me, at which point, I debate heavily with those suspicious of me in a great few walls of discussion, thereby contributing a great deal to the game and having the challenge of pressure on me.

Anyway, let me try and re-read Tar, because my gut is telling me he's likely to be a wolf here, but I'm not really sure why.

[Yosarian2]

On a side note, we have't heard from Iamasusername in a while. I have pretty good vibes from him, though.

[Yosarian2]

Tarballs: Can you explain why you were voting OGML on day 2? It looked kind of strange to me, and you didn't explain it; you just voted him on day 1 once it was pointed out to you that lynching the seer was a really bad idea, but with no actual reason for your OGML vote. Then you re-voted him on day 2, with no reason. Then, when asked, you just said:

OGML seemed the most suspicious to me when I first voted him, was the most suspicious until the hammer, and remained the most suspicious when FA flipped. And thus far nothing has happened today that would change my mind about that.

Which basically says nothing at all. Ok, so WHY do you find him suspicious?

Considering that I think OGML looks pretty town here, I find it odd you voted for him for two days consecutivly and never gave any kind of reason at all.

[Yosarian2]

Just popping in from my BlackBerry to mention that I am nearing 100% certainty on Yos2 being a bad guy of some flavor.

And, just like the last 3 times you said that, you're 100% wrong.

[Yosarian2]

Just popping in from my BlackBerry to mention that I am nearing 100% certainty on Yos2 being a bad guy of some flavor.

And, just like the last 3 times you said that, you're 100% wrong.

Just because he got it wrong the last three times, doesn't mean he is wrong this time.

True, but it does give me the right to roll my eyes at him.

Anyway...

[Yosarian2]

Vote:Mastin

I really don't think he's scumhunting at all here. Even though he's been saying that we need to warewolf hunt, he has yet to actually say who his suspects for being a warewolf are this game. This, along with my meta on him that him being less active is a scumtell, makes me think he's probably scum.

My guess is wolf scum, especally with his "mafia should claim right now" gambit.

[Yosarian2]

I am suspicious of Mastin

Based off of a reason that I proved to be false.
Your assumption of me talking less as scum relies on me being more cautious with my wording.
That, however, relies on ONE VERY VITAL FACT:

IT IS ONLY POSSIBLE IN GAMES WITH DAYTALKING SCUM

.

Eh, could be, but I don't buy it.

Based on what I saw in that game, I think that, when you are scum, you post less because as scum, you're paranoid about how anything you say might make you look bad. It's a common trait amoung scum, actually. I don't see how daytalking or not has anything to do with it.

Do you have a counter-example, of a game when you were scum and yet you were very active all game?

I was cautious with my wording as scum, and

asked my partners about if what I wanted to say was alright

. If I can't daytalk,

then what keeps me from posting it if I

don't have anyone to ask

?

Well, that's part of it, sure.

I think this is also a part of why you're less active as scum then as town:

As for reasons, I'll likely give them when I catch up. I *am* behind...


GREATEST FEAR AS SCUM: Making a slip about knowing something I shouldn't know. That *really* seems to be a possible problem every time I post... (referring to my latest post)

I think that that very problem, that fear that you might say something wrong as scum, inherently makes you post less when you're scum.

METAGAMING ME WON'T WORK!
(...In attack. Go ahead and defend me with Meta; I enjoy it and do it myself. Use it against me, and you will INSTANTLY earn my suspicion.)

Pfft.

You think you can just declare that metaing you won't work, and therefore that anyone who suspects you for meta reasons will "earn your suspicions"?

Everyone plays differently when they're scum from when they're town. Everyone has certain patterns of play. Some people are harder to meta then others, but I doubt there is anyone who is so perfect that metaing them is completly worthless.

Also, if there is a difference between your town meta and your scum meta, you are unlikely to be aware of it, so you claiming "METAING ME DOSN'T WORK" as a defence is complete crap.

I said that I was being more careful with my wording in order to prevent me from revealing I knew to much, SO I ASKED TAJO IF WHAT I PLANNED TO SAY WAS ALRIGHT.

Well, daytalking or not, scum always know too much, though; that's part of what makes them scum.

How on earth does me being suspicious of Mastin for a good, logical reason based on meta

Correction: Poor, misguided, terrible, up to the point of twisting my words bad logic, based off of a BS meta argument.

There is nothing BS about my meta argument, and I have never "twisted your words" or "used bad logic" to my knowlege in this game.

I'm not really buying his explination here, either:

Oh, really?

Well, I've got news for you:

I'm having FUN.
Right now, debating with you. I'm hungry, thirsty, a bit sleep deprived, and have other tasks I could be doing.
Doesn't matter.
I'm typing at a word per minute speed that's likely too frightening for me to even comprehend, in order to play this game. It's fun being under so much suspicion.

heh. Oh, I'm sure you're having fun. It's always fun to be fighting for your life. That's irrelevent, though.

Also, your claim here (which was that you apparently on some level lurked BECAUSE you wanted to be attacked, because you know you have a meta of lurking as scum) seems to completly contradict your other claim that you do not have a meta of lurking as scum.

Also, what happened to your earlier opinion, Yos?
You thought I was town earlier on. You said that what I had been doing wasn't scummy day one. Maybe even day two, for that matter.

(nods) Yup. I thought you were town day 1.

Sudden reversal of opinion on a player-->Scummy.

100% wrong.

Town should always be willing to change their minds. There are a lot of reasons for that; the prime one being that, if people just keep going after the same suspects all game and trusting the same people all game, then it's very easy for the scum to manipulate the game by careful use of nightkills. Beyond that, changing your mind is much better at getting reactions and finding scum then never doing so. The scariest scumhunters are the people who think you're town, then suddenly flip on you and go after you based on some new piece of information; those are both the best at finding scum, and the best at screwing with scum's gameplans.

I've gone so far in the past as to declare that consistancy itself is a scumtell.

On a side note, we have't heard from Iamasusername in a while.

Possible, "Hey! Buddy! Come online because you'll get suspicion if you don't!" comment.

I have pretty good vibes from him, though.

Definite possible wolf connection, here.

Ok, I'm even happier about my vote on Mastin now.

Are you really calling it scummy that I think Iamusername looks town-ish, and saying I want to hear more from him? I declared that you looked town-ish earlier, and that OGML looked townish earlier, and you didn't have a problem with either of those. OGML also earlier said he thought Iamusername looked town, and you had no problem with that either

There's clearly nothing wrong with either one of those things; there's nothing wrong me thinking someone looks town. SO your attack does not appear to be honestly motivated here.

You look like a struggling scum here, Mastin, trying to fight back and claw your way out any way you can.

[Yosarian2]

I'll look at some other games, Mastin.

However, you can get as angry as you want; you just saying over and over again "YOU CAN NOT META ME" is NOT a defense.

Also, I don't care what you think; town can, and should, suddenly and on a dime be willing to completly and 100% change their minds when new evidence warrents it. It's just better for the town. You repeated it like 4 times here:

Sudden changes?

Still scummiest thing one can do.

Beyond that, changing your mind is much better at getting reactions and finding scum then never doing so.

Again,
THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH CHANGING ONE'S OPINION. IT IS WITH A SUDDEN CHANGE WHERE THE PROBLEMS LIE.

The scariest scumhunters are the people who think you're town, then suddenly flip on you and go after you based on some new piece of information;

More like the scummiest.

those are both the best at finding scum, and the best at screwing with scum's gameplans.

Gradual change-->Not scummy, still throws scum off.
Sudden change-->Scummiest thing someone can do.

I've gone so far in the past as to declare that consistancy itself is a scumtell.

And THAT is an EXTREMELY anti-town opinion.
Inconsistency is a SCUM TELL,
Consistency is a TOWN TELL.

But you never gave a *REASON* why a pro-town person changing their mind is bad for the town. I gave several reasons why I play this way as town, and why it is better for the town to do so; all you did was repeat over and over again your (incorrect) assertion that it's somehow scummy and/or anti-town, but you never gave a single reason WHY town shouldn't act like that.

My guess? You are scum and you decided not to nightkill me earlier in the game because I had earlier in the game said I thought you were town, and now you're pissed off I changed my mind. Which is exactally why pro-town people SHOULD be unpredictable, and should change their minds.

[Yosarian2]

First:

Nobody should hammer Mastin before he gets to post his case. Don't even think about it.

Agreed. We can wait until Thursday, I want to hear what he has to say.

Secondly:

Mastin and OGML are suspicious of Yos, yet both of them are voting for a person who they suspect to be Yos's scum partner. I think it would be more beneficial for both of you to lynch Yos instead, yet I'm getting the feeling that you seem to be afraid(?) to lynch him at this point. Why is this?

Now, this is scummy. Why are you trying to direct people to lynch me? You're not voting me, and you really haven't attacked me at all; but it seems like you want other people to wagon me, and it looks like a scummy attempt to manipulate pro-town people into fighting each other. Am I missing something here?

[Yosarian2]

Mastin: Your absurdly long wall of text there made my eyes bleed just trying to read it, and I really have no idea what case, exactlaly, you are trying to make on me and/or Iamusername. I'm not going to go through and quote every single line and respond to it right now, because that would be totally unreadable, so let me just hit some key points.

What supposed "scum slip" are you talking about? You talked about it like 10 times in that post, and I have no idea what you're talking about at all.

You also seem to be attacking me because I have, and have had for years now, a mafia theory that town should quite freqently change their minds 180 degrees on a moment's notice. Again, I don't care if you disagree with me (nice taking this line out of context, btw), that is a mafia theory I have held, and followed as town, ever since playing with Baby Jesus back in 2006. If you think this is in any way scummy, you are simply wrong. I'm not sure what else I can say about that; I can continue to explain why I think it's good for the town and bad for the scum for town to be somewhat unpredictable, but you just don't seem to be listening, so I'm not going to bother. Suffice to say that it's something I always strive to do as town, and that I think every pro-town person SHOULD strive to do.

Honestly, the main reason I'm votign for you really isn't lurking anymore. It's that you seem so angry and hostile, you're really not making any sense to me, your attacks seem really unfounded and illogical, and your defense just looks scummy ("your meta on me is incorrect." is a valid defense. "I CAN NOT BE METAD, EVER, BY ANYONE!!!11!" is just scummy.) Anyway, I'm looking foward to hearing your "case".

[Yosarian2]

I agree with you that Iamusername hasn't posted much content. That is a perfectly reasonable reason to suspect him; I've mentioned myself that we need to hear more from him.

I will note that nothing in that summery is actually an attack against me. You seem to be trying to describe everything I've done in a way that assumes I am scum, but none of it actually explains why any of my posts woudl be more likely made by a scum then by a town.

I asked a question about why Yos didn't think it was scummy; he didn't post an answer. (This doesn't count as an answer; it's a further accusation.)

I really did explain why it was scummy, you know:

Right. My theory was that scum would be all paranoid about responding to something like that, in any way, for fear it would look scummy; I know I would feel wierd about blatently yelling "NOT TOWN!" as scum, whereas as town I might be more likely to just play along and have fun. So once it got going, my plan was to vote the first person who completly ignored the whole thing, on the theory that that was the most likely way for scum to respond to it; I'd expect town would either play along with it, or attack it, but scum would try to ignore it completly. And you were the first to not mention it at all.

Did you miss that explination?

You didn't count, because you specifically responded to my post.

Anyway, it should have been clear that I was just trying to skip making a random vote, and instead went to a "slightly better then random vote". That is, if a random vote in this game would be 45% likely to hit scum, my vote was, I donno, 5% better then that or so. It was the second page; I figured it was pretty clear that my vote was not based on much, just a silly thing I did to get the game rolling and the fact that I wouldn't have voted for you the way FA did there.

I mean, I specifically said in that post that

(I have no idea if that's anything like a reliable scumtell, but who cares, it's better then a random vote.)

Note that, while I voted FA for this reason, this was not the reason I kept my vote there as we started to get close to a lynch.

Your logic on Kore is...weak. Yes, you are correct, I'm not mafia. That's hardly proof that I'm scum, it's just the opposte. Plus, you're "Kore made one comment about Yos being confusing so Yos killed kore for that" explination is really, really weak; it's hardly like Kore spent most of day 1 trying to lynch me. If anything, the most likely explination for the Kore kill is that the wolves knew that their biggest threat was the mafia, so they decided to try and kill a mafia member. Especally after the strong arguments OMGL made yesterday linking Kore to Khamisa, it seems pretty obvious why Kore was killed.

His CJ explanation seemed totally unnecessary, stating a fact that we all pretty much knew already, but stating it generated wifom.

FA clearly didn't understand why lynching the claimed cop on day 1 was a bad idea. Well, either that, or FA was pretending not to in order to try to lynch a cop. The best way to find out which one of those was true was to explain it in some detail, and judge the reaction. The reaction did not impress me as pro-town, so I didn't remove my vote.

This was NOT the reason that Yos had voted for FA. Yet is the reason he gives for the vote day two.

Not quite correct. I was asked what the case was on FA. I responded that the biggest anti-town thing FA did was vote for the cop.

Was that the reason I voted FA? No, but that wasn't what I was asked. It was the reason I kept my vote on FA when the bandwagon started getting serious, and I think it was the main reason FA was lynched. You're trying to make it sound like I was lying here, but no, I answered the question truthfully and correctly, it's just not the question you're claiming it was.

Bandwagonning, no reason given. Seems like selective scum hunting to me

If by "selective scumhunting" you mean "selectivly hunting for people who are scum", then yes, i was doing that. Reasons are not always necessary, especally when you're right.

The first lurking accusation from Yos2. Should have been the last, given my explanation in the game to that.

I've proven why this accusation Yos2 made against me was completely false in three different ways--
1: It requires for an experienced player (Of which, I ONLY count the three mods in this game that have modded my games) to be scum with me,
2: It also requires for daytalking scum abilities, something which I didn't think we had,
3: I posted the link to a game where I did this exact same thing as town. And gave as many examples as I could that exist about it.

So, I'm scum because I didn't buy your "proof" that your lurking somehow wasn't a scumtell?

Look; meta aside, lurking is *ALWAYS* a scumtell, ok? Scum lurk more then town, and lurking is also anti-town. In any case, the reason I especally suspected you for lurking dosn't have anything to do with daytalking, or experenced players, or anything like that, so all those arguments were completly irrelevent to my suspicions.

The way you exploded, and OMGUS voted me, when I didn't instantly buy your explinations? Now, THAT was scummy as hell.


Anyway, as I said earlier, absolutly none of that is a case against me. It's a lot of words that really means very little. If you are in fact town who mistakenly thinks I'm scum, Mastin, WHY do you think that? What, exactally, have I done that scum would be more likely to do then town, and why?

It seems the real reason you are mad at me is because I didn't buy your defense. Hint: that's not actually an argument against me.

[Yosarian2]

Then don't accuse me. I've stated this several times throughout my games; just. Don't. Accuse. Me.

Then. Don't. Be. Scum.

You made a huge slip. I called you out for it.

Uh, I just asked you to clarify what you were talking about. So, what are you talking about?

]This would be pro-town to do (it gives a more solid view on your opinions for everyone, most importantly, me), but you're not pro-town, are you?

How would it be a pro-town thing to do to respond to an unreadable wall of words with another unreadable wall of words?

I want the rest of the town to get what I'm trying to say, and not just skim past it. So I responded to the relevent points in a short, succint, logical manner. Being clear and readable IS the pro-town thing to do, Mastin. Unreadable posts only are good for scum trying to smash their way out of a corner.

This one, and JUST after stating your accusations of me and pointing this out, Iamausername DOES show up, and votes for me, and you bandwagon that shortly afterwards, with a minor distraction from OGML.

What the hell?

I was commenting that I wanted to hear more from Iamusername. In other words, I was complaining about his lurking. I also said that I did have a pro-town vibe from the posts he did make, which is true.

How the hell is that a "scum slip"? It's pretty much just a streightfoward statement of fact, an attempt of mine to prevent someone from lurking, while at the same time stating my current opinion on that person. Those are all important, pro-town things to do.

The fact that he posted after I complained that we needed to hear more from him is *EXACTALLY WHAT I WANT TO HAPPEN WHEN I DRAW ATTENTION TO THE FACT THAT SOMEONE IS LURKING.* At least half the time, lurkers are still reading the game, they're just being quiet; usually if you point out that they're lurking, they show up. Which is why pointing out lurkers is a damn good thing for pro-town people to do.

Again, you seem to just be taking everything I say, and trying to put a scummy spin on it. Also, to misquote Princess Bride, you keep saying "scum slip". I don't think that phrase means what you think it means.

You also seem to be attacking me because I have, and have had for years now, a mafia theory that town should quite freqently change their minds 180 degrees on a moment's notice.

And I, personally, think it's a load of BS.

Town SHOULD change their opinions, yes. But it should be done gradually. Not suddenly.

Why?

You keep saying that, but you don't seem to have a reason for it.

Everything you do in a mafia game, and everything you don't do, should have a reason behind it. I came to the conclusion that acting this way helps the town more then it hurts the town, partly because it makes it much, much harder for scum to manipulate the town with nightkills, and I did so years ago. I actually did so because when I was scum one game, Baby Jesus, one of the best mafia players of all time, kept flipping back and fourth on me, and it made it like 1000% harder for me to manipulate the town, and made him by far the biggest problem to me as scum. So, after that, I emulated the playstyle.

Anyway, if you can't actually come up with a reason why my playstyle is somehow anti-town or scummy, you need to re-think your position on it.

3: I do disagree with you. So?

Well, you just saying over and over again "I disagree with you!" without a reason isn't actually an argument.

Putting that aside, you having a differening view on mafia theory then I do isn't a case against me, either. If you want, we'll argue about it in MD after this game is over.

that is a mafia theory I have held, and followed as town, ever since playing with Baby Jesus back in 2006.

I will not believe it until I read up on your Meta as town, Yos.

Lol. Ok, but good luck getting a good feel for my meta as town, considering how many hundreds of games I've played on this site.

If you think this is in any way scummy

I think it's one of the scummiest things a person can do. So, yes, I think it is scummy.

Ok, let me try this one more time.

WHY???

Things are only "scummy" if they either help the scum, or if scum are more likely to do them. In reality, scum are much more likely to do the opposite, to carefully make sure they appear consistant; plus, me doing this tends to help the town, for reasons I've explained over and over again. So, if it helps the town, and if you have no reason to think scum are more likely to do it, you can't just claim it's scummy and expect anyone to listen.

you are simply wrong.

The "You're wrong!" defense...

No. You are wrong, because I always do this as town, and I think town would win more often if more people also did it as town. Many good town players do. Therefore, if you think it is a scumtell, you are wrong. QED.

I'm not sure what else I can say about that;

You can save me the time of looking at your wiki and post all of your games as town, and at least one recent game of scum for comparison.

Um...all my games as town? Lol.

Also, I don't actually have a wiki.

I'll be glad to give you some links, at some later time when I have time.

I can continue to explain why I think it's good for the town and bad for the scum for town to be somewhat unpredictable

And, via my beliefs in psychology, tells (caution-->Scumtell is similar, for example), etc. can be stated over and over again to counter it.

What?

No, that's foolish. Caution is scummy, yes. Consistant play is cautious play. Inconsistant, agressive, change-your-mind-in-a-second play is the exact opposte of cautious play, which should make it a town tell by your own logic there.

but you just don't seem to be listening

I cannot listen to something that conflicts with my fundamental beliefs.

Hint: your fundimental beliefs are wrong here.

But if you're really just going to refuse to listen to be because I'm apparetnly questioning an article of your religious faith, then fine. Just accept that I feel this way and we'll move on.

Suffice to say that it's something I always strive to do as town, and that I think every pro-town person SHOULD strive to do.

And I think it's scummy, and something ONLY scum would do.

And you still haven't given any reasons for claiming that...

2: Aggression is a town tell. It is a form of recklessness.

Yes.

However, being agressive to someone BECAUSE THEY ARE ATTACKING YOU is a huge scum tell.

5: This is my true playstyle, which I have now unleashed upon you thanks to your encouragement. Don't like it?
Then don't attack me.

"If you vote me, then I will attack you brutally." Also, a HUGE freaking scumtell.

Only scum should "unleash their true playstyle" on someone just because they're being attacked. Only scum get agressive only in self defense, only to undermine the person attacking them. Town go after people who they think are scum, not people who are attacking them.

The fact that you're making this a threat, "don't attack me or I will attack you with massive walls of words", is either good scum play, or bad town play. And, you sound like a pretty good player to me. Therefore, I think you are scum.

"your meta on me is incorrect."

I then elaborated on WHY it is incorrect after saying this. You failed to mention THAT part, because you didn't want to make your argument look weaker.

No, actually; I was agreeing here that your meta defense here WAS a valid, reasonable defense. Which is why, you may notice, I stopped attacking you on the grounds of "Mastin lurks when he's scum". Of course, since then, you've given me many better reasons to think you are scum, heh.

"I CAN NOT BE METAD, EVER, BY ANYONE!!!11!"

In attack?
Never.

I still say this is bull. Everyone can be metaed, if you try hard enough. But, again, we're drifting more into an irrelevent mafia theory argument here.

[Yosarian2]

Your case against Yos is a lot better, but I'm not totally convinced by it either. But I'd like to know one thing:

Yos, how often do you use meta as your reasoning?

Because your case on Mastin was pretty much based on meta, and meta alone, until Mastin started his over-the-top self-defending.

(shrug) Meta is one of the things in my toolkit that i pull out when it seems useful to do so. I don't focus on meta as much as some other people, but I do find it to be useful, especally in cases where I have a strong reason to think that a certain person acts a certain way as scum. I'm not really sure how often, but often enough. HJere is a recent game when we caught Ether as scum largely because of her meta, for example: viewtopic.php?t=11050&start=0

[Yosarian2]

Mastin: Any chance you could come out of "Debate mode" for a minute and actually think about what I'm saying, or try to understand what I'm talking about, or perhaps even admit that you may be wrong on certain points?

Right now, it feels like you're just trying to win an argument, not actually trying to figure out my alignment or anything, and it feels like the reason you're trying to win this argument is in order to avoid being lynched. That, actually, is the main reason I think you're scum now; I don't think you care about anything but not getting lynched, all your attacks and votes and posting seem to be based on that, and that's scummy, because scum only care about not being lynched, while the main concern of pro-town people is to find scum.

If you are town, then it would be in your best interests to convince me and the rest of us that you're town before we lynch you. Right now, you're not acting like town, you're acting like cornered scum. If you are town, I would remedy that if I were you. If you're scum, then just keep doing what you're doing, and I'm sure you'll be dead soon.

That is a perfectly reasonable reason to suspect him;

But, somehow, YOU STILL HAD PRO-TOWN VIBES FROM HIM.
I can't see anyone but a werewolf having slipped up so badly with that opinion.

Eh?

He hasn't said that much, but I still think he's more likely town then not. There is no contradiction there. The fact that he hasn't said much is a strike against him, but I think he's town for other reasons.

ARe you really claiming that it's impossible for a town player to not have much content? Because, you know, at the point when I voted you before, you had not posted much content. You only started to post a lot after you were attacked for lurking.

This is NOT the same thing as an accusation.

Correct. Your point?

An attack against your "slightly better than random" vote.

Which totally ignored the explination for it I had already given. And in any case, it wasn't actually an attack against me, because, as I pointed out, you completly failed to give any reason for why that would be scummy, or for why a scum might be more likely to do that then a pro-town person.

Do you really think it's anti-town to do something weird in the first pages of the game, when we have no information, in order to get reactions? I have trouble beliving that, considering you started the game by declaring yourself scum, voting yourself, and demanding that you be lynched.

Tell me, Yos2: What made you use this tactic in this game, rather than an earlier game?

Eh. I thought of it, it seemed like fun, it seemed like it might get some information, I'd never done anything like that before, so I did it. What's your point?

You seem to be trying to describe everything I've done in a way that assumes I am scum

So? So what?
It's called a case AGAINST you for a reason.

(shakes head)

If you are town, your goal right now should be to try to figure out what my alignment is.

If you are scum, then your goal right now would be to try and make everything I say sound bad, without regards to my actual meaning, in the hopes of getting me lynched.

Everything you are doing looks like the second, Mastin. That's "so what".

I've done this COUNTLESS times in my games.

More meta defense...

but none of it actually explains why any of my posts woudl be more likely made by a scum then by a town.

Amongst others, there's that one VERY vital post from you:
On that page, you and Iamausername slipped badly. You
-Started accusations on me,
-Immediately after that, stated how we hadn't heard from Iamausername in a while. SEVERAL OTHER PEOPLE hadn't posted for a while; you chose Iamausername SPECIFICALLY.
-Iamausername then shows up IMMEDIATELY after that, and votes for me.
-Then you, in what I see as the first contentful post since your accusations against me, you vote me.

Um. I pointed out Iamsername hadn't posted for a while. *THIS IS A PRO-TOWN ACTION.*

Iamusername then posted. *THIS IS WHAT I LIKE TO SEE HAPPEN WHEN I SAY I WANT TO HEAR MORE FROM SOMEONE.

Iamusername then voted for you. *THIS IS PROBABLY BECAUSE YOU LOOK SCUMMY AS HELL.* Note that almost half the rest of the town is voting for you too here; Iamusername voting for you isn't exactally a shock.

How is any of that a case against me? Or against Iamusername? When actions have a perfectly reasonable pro-town explination that you completly ignore, it adds to my convinction that you are scum trying to construct a case out of thin air, rather then a townie looking for scum.

Those four are perhaps the most condemning pieces of evidence in existence.

They're not actually evidence for anything, you know. Not even slightly.

That isn't an explanation. It still doesn't say why you didn't think MY response was scummy.

Becuase you didn't ignore it; you specifically continued on your own early game trying to get reactions gambit instead, and specifically refused to declare youself not scum. Again, the fact you were doing something like that was actually why I thought you were pro-town day 1, although it's certanly not a very strong reason and dosn't nearly match your scummy behavior today.

As I said, at the time, my thinking was that scum wouldn't particapate AND wouldn't refuse to participate, they would ignore it completly. You did not.

And, as I said, SEVERAL others ignored it.

And, as I said, FA was the first person to do so.

Are you missing the part where I explisitly stated that what I was doing had probably no validity at all as a scum tell, and it was just better then a random vote? Again, you were voting for *yourself* at this point. Do you really think my vote at this point was worse then any one else's vote at this point?

I responded, alright, but I didn't participate in the activity--

Yes. I wouldn't expect a scum to do that; if I say "declare yourslf not-scum", I wouldn't normally expect a scum to say "No!", it's too risky a move. I would expect a pro-town person to play along, to refuse to play along, or to attack me for the whole concept. Any of those would be a standard pro-town way to respond. I would expect a scum's natural inclination to be to do none of those.

Of course, all of this was really just a silly way to get the game stated, to try to do something more useful then a plain random vote would be. I didn't really expect anyone to take my attack and vote seriously, considering how weak I even said it was, and was a bit surprised when the wagon took off like that.

Which you never removed...

Right. I kept it on as FA became more scummy as the day went on, especally with her demands to lynch the cop. I explained this...

And, again, why'd you use this tactic THIS game, instead of, oh, say, your last, or the one before that?

(shrug) No reason. Why?

It was the second page;

Page numbers mean NOTHING.

Of course they do. What they mean in this case is that there was nothing better to go on at this point.

Yet apparently was enough to keep it on, when at the time, the only thing against FA was the Meta case I had posted, essentially.

Nope. I would not have kept in on FA up to the lynch if that was the only reason I was voting for him.

FA's vote was something which should've been obvious was random.

Eh. You were loudly voting yourself and demanding that you be lynched. Someone else had already voted you as well. I highly doubt FA's vote was truly "random".

Your logic on Kore is...weak.

Lol. Nice defense. [/sarcasm]

I don't need a defense against "you're not mafia, so you must be a warewolf" when I'm town, lol.

Your continued push against me, despite my solid defense

Your defense, or more specifically the way you're using your vote, walls of words, and threats to attack me if I don't back off, is exactally the reason I think you're scum, Mastin. Do you really not understand that?

[qupte] you trying to switch reasonings behind voting me, when you realize your original reasoning is extremely flawed, is further proof of this.[/quote]

Eh? If I'm voting you, and you do something incredibly scummy while I'm voting you, then am I not supposed to point that out?

If you're not a member of the Mafia, then you're either town, or a werewolf.

Right.

Which makes you more likely to be a Werewolf, from your attitude thusfar in the game. ESPECIALLY with Selective Scum Hunting in factor; selectively scum hunting the mafia is proof that you are a werewolf who wants the mafia dead.

...uh, what?

I'm hunting people who look like scum. For example, right now I'm hunting you, and you're probably a warewolf.

Plus, you're "Kore made one comment about Yos being confusing so Yos killed kore for that" explination is really, really weak;

1: This was actually TWO accusations: One, that of proof you're not mafia.
And if you're denying that and saying it's weak...No, it is not.

Well, it's not really that strong, but I'm not going to argue with it, since you are correct that I'm not mafia.

2: The other was that you might've night-killed those who suspected you.

That would be reasonable, if Kore had ever attacked me. She never did, at all. This was pretty much all Kore said about me towards the end of the day:

Yos - worth noting that I have no comment. Plenty of content but I'm still unsure.

And then, later:

I think Yos has already said his reasons? (The Mastin vote, the general feel of the posts, and most of all returning CJ's vote.)

How on Earth would that make you think "Hey, Kore was attacking Yos, so Yos killed Kore!"

The person Kore was attacking before she died, actually, was Wolfy.

Mastin...you're really just making stuff up here at this point. You're inventing facts out of thin air. Do you really not get why I find you scummy right now?

If you are saying you are disagreeing with it, who WOULD you kill as scum?

Um...depends what I was trying to do, but almost certanly, if I was scum I would have killed OGML. He's clearly obvtown and basically unlynchable, and he's been convinced I'm scum all game, like he usually is, and he's a very strong player who's good at leading the town. Unlike Kore, OGML actually was attacking me.

You were one of Kore's only suspects.

100% false.

Quote me the post where Kore attacked me, or said she suspected me, or voted for me, or FOS"d me, or anything. Hint: it dosn't exist. The closest she ever came was the "confuses me" post you quoted, but if you quote the WHOLE post, instead of just one line out of context:

Yosarian confuses me. His play seems town enough, but he appears to be changing his mind every post or other, which does not sit very well.
Need more from Caboose and Tarballs to form an opinion.

In that post, she actually said that my play "seems town enough". And then she never attacked me again, while she did attack someone else.

Pro-tip, Mastin: Lying about what people have said dosn't work in forum mafia. Next time you're scum, I would avoid it.

There's no way you could even assume this unless you were a member of the werewolves, Yos2.

When someone is obvscum, and they get killed by another scum group, it's usually because they were obvscum. Can you think of a different reason kore would have been killed?

Granted, I wouldn't have been trying to nightkill mafia at that point if I was a wolf; there were only two mafia left, they weren't THAT big of a threat; I would have tried to kill someone who looked unlynchable, personally. Still, I can't imagine any other reason someone might kill Kore.

There are THOUSANDS of reasons that Kore could've been night-killed.

Name one. Welll, let me clarify; name one that dosn't involve you lying and making stuff up like your last explination did.

Also, I'm a little amused you're suddenly accusing me of being scum because I was speculating why they might have killed Kore. You were just doing that, like, two paragraphs ago.

so they decided to try and kill a mafia member.

Poor play.

(nods) Yup. So why'd you do it?

FA clearly didn't understand why lynching the claimed cop on day 1 was a bad idea.

I wouldn't say that. To be honest, I was ignoring his attacks against CJ. Instead, I was focusing on his Meta and rolefishing instead. So I didn't exactly see the whole conversation that well. But this explanation sticked out like a sore thumb. You were explaining to him a concept which I think that he should've already known, and you also threw in some wifom where it wasn't needed.

(shrug) Well, I have to do that sometimes. If I have to go all the way to first principles to explain why something is anti-town, I'll gladly do it. Also, what WIFOM are you talking about? I mean, I did want to make sure that my explination didn't get anyone to counterclaim CJ, in the off chance CJ was lying, because that would have been bad for the town.

You're casting doubt...on a player who is NOW CONFIRMED TOWN.

No, I'm explaining why FA trying to lynch our cop was scummy looking to me. I shouldn't HAVE to explain that to you, but like I just said, sometimes you have to go all the way back to first principles.

The best way to find out which one of those was true was to explain it in some detail, and judge the reaction.

This did NOT seem like what you were doing AT ALL.

Eh?

The reaction did not impress me as pro-town, so I didn't remove my vote.

I agree, in that FA wasn't particularly Pro-town...but to not remove it from the reaction? I definitely am not buying it.

I didn't "not remove it for the reaction". I set up a situation where I might have been willing to remove it if FA had reacted in a pro-town way, because I was still trying to figure out FA's alignment. FA did not.

Was that the reason I voted FA? No, but that wasn't what I was asked.

It is to me. When people ask what the case against a player is, to me, that means what was YOUR reason for voting that player.

Um, but that's not what those words mean.

You're trying to make it sound like I was lying here,

And what's the problem with that? I think you are, I think you're caught werewolf DESPERATELY trying to fight back, pushing for my lynch with WHATEVER you can get a hold of.

Hint: You're lynch -1 here.

Have you ever heard of the psycological term of "projection"? That's where you accuse others of doing what you yourself are doing, often as a form of denial. In this case, I think you're projecting, Mastin. You are clearly the only one here who is a "caught warewolf despretly trying to fight back".

If by "selective scumhunting" you mean "selectivly hunting for people who are scum", then yes, i was doing that.

Don't tell me you seriously didn't know what I was talking about, Yos2. You've been playing for years, correct?[/quote]

Um, I was playing for years before Tar ever heard of mafia, Mastin. And no, I never heard of that one.

Reasons are not always necessary

1: Yes. Yes, they are. Reasons are ALWAYS necessary for a vote.

For the ten thousanth time, "Yes they are" is not an argument.

especally when you're right.

Oh, yes. The bandwagon was correct. It landed on scum, a Member of the Mafia.
But no.
It wasn't pro-town.
Selective Scum Hunting is hunting for a specific faction. In your case, you were hunting Mafia members, but not Werewolves. Why?
Because you are one, of course.

Um...no, I was looking for scum. Where do you get "selectice scum hunting" from, anyway?

From your source, this is what Tar said:

1) a player builds a case that is predicated around a player being part of a less-significant scum faction (especially a case built around a specific player being SK and not Mafia), or 2) a player all-but-ignores a specific scum faction or factions when scumhunting.

I wasn't doing either of those. I was voting for someone because they looked scummy. It didn't have anything to do with what scum group they were a memeber of; they just looked scummy. And I was right.

Good pro-town players use their gut to find scum sometimes, Mastin.

So, I'm scum because I didn't buy your "proof" that your lurking somehow wasn't a scumtell?

Yes.
A pro-town player would admit defeat on the points they were making.
Not you.
You switched to other, even WORSE reasoning upon learning that I had defended too well against your accusations.

I'm voting for you BECAUSE YOU ARE ACTING LIKE CAUGHT SCUM. You are acting like scum acts when they get attacked.

I also notice that, despite quoting every single bloody line I wrote (even if it's just to say "No, you're wrong" with no reasoning, like you seem to like to do), you've not responded to my actual arguments against you. Sooo scummy...

Look; meta aside, lurking is *ALWAYS* a scumtell, ok?

No. It is NOT.

-I lurked in 735. I was waiting for enough responses for me to throw together a long post, and wanted extra feedback before posting my own. I had waited until Kieraen had given himself up as the last scum, before claiming cop, for example.
-I lurked in 742. Pretty much the same. I was building a case against AceMarksman (although, really, the main thing against him was Chainsaw Defense against someone who I knew was guilty), but still, wasn't posting in that time. When Jeff voted me, I claimed.
-I lurked in 760. Tried building opinions, and failed miserably several times. I wasn't contributing my all to the game.
-I lurked in 763. I fell six pages behind. It was originally due to laziness and not wanting to log into the game. It later became serious and I fell behind due to it.
-I lurked in 141. Because of it, I fell one page behind, and from then on, was ALWAYS behind and never caught up.
-I lurked in Inventor Mafia rather some bit. And even active lurked.

Guess what?
I WAS TOWN IN EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM.

Do you know what scumtell means?

It dosn't mean "something that only scum does".

It means "something that scum does more then town".

Even people who always lurk generally tend to lurk worse as scum.

So, no; no amount of meta-ing defense you try to do is going to make it
ok for you to lurk. It's not a huge scumtell, because town do lurk sometimes, but it always is a scumtell.

Scum lurk more then town,

Not in my experience. I've seen town lurk more than scum in my dozen or so games.

Ah, but there's more town then scum in those games.

If you see 2 town lurk and 1 scum lurk in a game, that's STILL actually a sign that it's a scumtell, since there are likely 4x as many town as scum in that game.

and lurking is also anti-town.

I agree. It IS anti-town. But

-ANTI-TOWN IS NOT SCUMMY,
-NOR IS ANTI-TOWN A SCUM-TELL,
-NOR IS IT ANY KIND OF SIGN OF SCUM.

Wrong, wrong, and wrong.

Assume people are playing towards their win condition, as they're required to do under site rules. Then, if they act in a way that is likely to help the town win, their win condition is more likely town. If they act in a way that is likely to help the scum win, their win condtion is more likely scum.

People who act in a way that hurts the town are more likely to be scum then those who don't. Period.

Now, there are SOME CASES where something is anti-town but is STILL not actually scummy, but those are very special cases. For the most part, anti-town=scummy.

In any case, the reason I especally suspected you for lurking dosn't have anything to do with daytalking, or experenced players

Yes. Yes, it does.

Um...you can't tell me why I suspected you, Mastin. That's not how it works...

Your reason for suspecting me for lurking was BECAUSE YOU SAID THAT I FEAR SLIPPING UP AS SCUM, which IS RELATED TO DAYTALKING AND EXPERIENCED PLAYERS.

Not necessarally, no. Scum slip because they know things town don't. Most scum worry about slipping. Experenced partners is irrelevent.

I was commenting that I wanted to hear more from Iamusername.

SPECIFICALLY Iamausername, though. THERE WERE MANY OTHERS WHO HAD NOT CONTRIBUTED A GREAT DEAL,

ESPECIALLY

AT THE TIME OF THAT POST.

You singled out a SPECIFIC player and said that it'd be nice to hear more from them.

Let me check that.

I made my post on:Saturday, June 13, 8:03 PM.

At that point, Iamusername had last posted on June 4th.

You had posted on the 12'th...
Caboose had posted that day
Sotty had posted that day
OGML had posted on the 12th.
Wolfy had posted that day.
Tarballs has posted that day.

So, no. You are either wrong, or are again lying. At the point when I mentioned that we hadn't heard from Iamusername for a while, we had not heard from Iamusername for a while, and THAT WAS NOT TRUE OF ANYONE ELSE IN THE GAME.

You're trying to make it sound like I "randomally" named one lurker out of a bunch of lurkers, and that's completly not true. At that point in time, he was the only person who had not posted, so I specifcally made a point of pointing that out. I had a post specifically devoted to pointing out that he hadn't posted for a while.

It wasn't an *attack* on him, but still, if I had a partner who was lurkerscum, why would I point out he was lurking? Being a lurkerscum actually can be a good scum tactic (which is why it's an inherent scumtell), but only if no one notices it.

Again, Mastin; you clearly aren't actually interested in looking for facts, you're just making up facts out of thin air to try to make me sound like scum.

Even more condemning, SHORTLY AFTER THAT, Iamausername DOES show up, and basically votes for YOUR "suspect" at the time, Me.

Well, sure. Again, you look scummy, I'm not surpised he voted you, or anyone else for that matter.

I also said that I did have a pro-town vibe from the posts he did make, which is true.

This. Is. Utter.

BS

. You've EVEN ON THIS PAGE

STATED

THAT YOU HAVE SUSPICIONS OF Iamausername.
Want the quote? I'll give it to you if necessary. You're TOTALLY contradicting yourself, Yos2. You. Are. Caught. Scum.

dude, don't hurt yourself there, lol.

I think he's probably pro-town, depsite his lurking. As I said, lurking is a scum tell, but it's a weak one on it's own.

You can rant and rave as much as you want, but you're not going to prevent me from stating my opinions, Mastin...

It's pretty much just a streightfoward statement of fact

On a SINGLE SPECIFIC player. You could've said that about MANY other players at the time. You chose Iamausername...why?

Because he was the ONLY ONE NOT POSTING!

Do you actually check facts before you throw around accusations, Mastin?

an attempt of mine to prevent someone from lurking

This, ITSELF, EVEN ALONE, contradicts your supposed town read on Iamausername. BY YOUR OWN ADMITION, YOU ARE SAYING LURKING IS A SCUM TELL. Which

FUNDAMENTALLY

CONTRADICTS WITH A TOWN READ.

Nope.

Let me review again:
Scum tell: something scum are at least slightly more likely to do then town.

So, if someone is lurking, it does not mean they MUST be scum. It increases their ODDS of being scum a little. However, if I have other reasons to think that person is town, then I still may have a town read on someone, despite that.

It's like:

"Ah, he missed that foul shot."

"I thought you said he was a good basketball player!"

"Yeah, he is."

"But you've also said that good basketball players don't usually miss foul shots!!!"

"True."

"Contradiction!!!!!11!"

No, it's not. Pro-town players *shouldn't* lurk, but they sometimes do anyway.

Anyway, you repeat your same bad argument a few more times here, let me just deleate that.

The fact that he posted after I complained that we needed to hear more from him is *EXACTALLY WHAT I WANT TO HAPPEN WHEN I DRAW ATTENTION TO THE FACT THAT SOMEONE IS LURKING.*

AKA, wants your partner to post after you notice he has not...

No, I want a PLAYER IN THE GAME to post after I notice he is not, because it's better for the town if everyone is posting.

ARe you really having *that* hard a time understanding why a pro-town person might want to say "Hey, we haven't heard from X in a while" in order to get him to post, even if that person isn't especally suspicious of X?

At least half the time, lurkers are still reading the game, they're just being quiet;

And Iamausername proved this by posting a weak case against me. You seriously didn't have suspicions over that?

How was his case against you weak? It made sense to me.

usually if you point out that they're lurking, they show up.

1: Many others had been contributing about the same amount at the time as Iamausername (read: not very much at all). You chose Iamausername out of all those options.

Dosn't how many times you repeat the lie, Mastin, it's still a lie. There was only one person in the game who had not posted in a while.

[Yosarian2]

So, to summerise (again, I don't know if everyone in the game is reading these mega-posts):

-Mastin was trying to claim that "Yos killed Kore before Kore was attacking me." This is completly untrue; Kore really wasn't attacking me. Go back and look at her posts for yourself.

-Mastin was also trying to claim that I picked Iamusername out of the blue to mention that he hasn't posted for a while, when "lots of other people were just as bad". Again, this is false; at the time I posted that, Iamusername was the only person who hadn't posted for a while, so I asked for him to post more. He then claims that somehow this, or the fact that Iamusername agrees with me that Matin is scummy, proves there's a link between me and Iamusername, which is just absurd.

Frankly, I honestly doubt even Mastin believes these arguments.

Also, despite that whole huge wall of text where he kept repeating the same two wrong things over and and over again, he completly failed to respond to some key points for why I thought he was scummy (I guess he knew he was wrong and I was right there?) Specifically, the whole way he was threatening to attack me "if I attacked him", the way he was trying to claim that "you can't use meta to attack me", and some other comments like this one:

5: This is my true playstyle, which I have now unleashed upon you thanks to your encouragement. Don't like it?
Then don't attack me.

Basically, he's trying to punish people for attacking him. He's trying to make it seem like attacking him is somehow fundimentally off-limits, and that if anyone does attack him, he'll go after them, attack them with his "true playstyle" to punish them.

The whole thing is just incredibly scummy. He didn't attack anyone all game, and basically is mostly inactive for most of the game. Then when attacked for lurking, he suddenly goes hyper-active, attacking only the people who are attacking him. He even makes clear that he's attacking people just because they're attacking him, and that he wouldn't be playing like this if he wasn't being attacked.

Mastin is either scum, or he's playing a really, really poor game as town. I think he's scum.

The only thing that gives me any doubt is that I think Mastin really didn't know scum could daytalk; then again, looking at the scum role PM's in the second post, none of them say the scum could daytalk; in fact, they specfically say you can talk to your partner at night, so the scum probably didn't know they could daytalk either.

Actually...now that I notice that, Mastin's whole reaction, where he kept asking the mod "CAN SCUM DAYTALK?", trying to prove me wrong, and then was stunned to find out they could, actually makes sense coming from a scum.

[Yosarian2]

Especally after the strong arguments OMGL made yesterday linking Kore to Khamisa, it seems pretty obvious why Kore was killed.

Strong arguments? If I remember right you weren't buying the idea Kore was scum yesterday.

OGML, why is is that you ALWAYS think I'm scum?

Anyway, I agree with you about Khamisa and tarballs are both looking scummy, and I'd be willing to go along with a lynch on either one. Kore, I don't really see the case on her.

OGML's "strong argument" for a link between Khamisa and Kore was actually in response to that post of mine, Sotty.

Anyway, Kore is mostly on the list for defending Kham by way of attacking Wulfy, which is the classic and very useful Chainsaw Defense. I would not be willing to lynch Kore before Kham is dead and confirmed as some flavor of scum.

I don't usually follow up on possible links like that until I know the alignment of one of the people involved, but I think that it's a pretty strong argument against Kore once you know Kham's alignmennt, and if Kore had been alive today I had been intending to follow up on it.

[Yosarian2]

<--Still busy.

Just something I have to say, if someone drops the hammer:

The fact that I've been at L-1 for DAYS proves that BOTH the werewolves already voted me, meaning of

Yos2
OGML,
and Iamausername,

Two are werewolves. (Wulfy doesn't count; Wulfy's the mafia member.)

Three problems with this.

1. Iamusername and OGML both look town.

2. That would only make sense if we were in lynch or lose, which we're not.

3. That would only make sense if you were town, which you're probably not.

[Yosarian2]

By the way, Yos2, a few links for convenience:

Even some of the best players on this site slip.

Of course, newbies do it just as often.

Which is why I DEFINITELY think this was a slip from you, Yos2.

You can post all the links you want, dude. I just proved your entire argument wrong, like, 3 posts ago. I asked Iamusername to post, because he was the only person in the entire game who had not posted recerntly. Your claim otherwise was completly untrue.

Also, for like the ten billionth time, you apparently don't know what the word "slip" means in a mafia context.

I really don't get why you seem complelty incapable of seeing the truth here, Mastin.

Say, hypothetically, you are town, there is a player in a game you are playing, and you think he's town, but he hasn't posted in a while. Everyone else in the game has. Wouldn't you make a post like this?

On a side note, we have't heard from Iamasusername in a while. I have pretty good vibes from him, though.

What I said, in that post, was exactally the right thing for me, as a pro-town person, to say in that point in time. I didn't suspect Iamusername, and therefore didn't want to attack him or start a bandwagon on him or anything, but I did want to hear more from him.

Again, you seem unwilling to consider the simplest, obvious, and true answer, and instead invent elaborate conspiricy theories based on nothing (and you actually had to invent untrue facts in order to support them) just becuase you want to claim I'm scum, and you want to claim I'm scum just because I'm attacking you. That's either a pretty standard scum ploy, or really piss-poor town play. So, again, I have to wonder if you're scum, or if you're just a really bad player.

True purpose of this post is to explain to you your status:

Screwed.
You're screwed if you lynch me, screwed if you don't.

Actually, I already helped lynch a mafia, and I'm pretty sure you're a warewolf, so once I lynch you I'm in good shape.

If you lynch me, I flip town. People will realize EVERYTHING I said was legit.

Dude, I've already proven that nothing you've said is legit. If you are town, you should have realized that by now, unless you're so caught up in your own arguments you've stopped caring about facts.

You pushing for my lynch based off of BS reasons (A meta I shot full of holes, "aggressive explosive play", etc.)

Um...I don't believe I've ever attacked anyone for agressive play in a mafia game, and I certanly never attacked you for being agressvie (or "agressive explosive" or whatever you're talking about). Again, you're still just blatently making stuff up. Which, at least, is consistant.

(If I am lynched, then I will break the rules of the Bah posts if anyone but Yos2 is lynched. It'll be one, four-letter word which I will make in a large font size, perhaps bolded, italicized, and underlined. Take a guess at which. )

Well, I tell you, if you pulled a stunt like that in a game I was modding, delibratly breaking the rules and stating your intent to do so before hand, I would blacklist you from all my games for life. Just saying.

[Yosarian2]

As most of you probably already know, I will be V/LA for the beach bash, and will be leaving later this evening.

[Yosarian2]

I'm back from V/LA.

Anyway, Iamusername makes a good argument there. I've seen scum fail to get in nightkills for no good reason before even when they're around, but I wouldn't be surprised if at least one of the two wolves was away last night. I could see lynching either Caboose or Tarballs today.

[Yosarian2]

For the record: I didn't post on this site during last night phase, but was recieving and sending PMs regarding a game I was about to mod. And I visited the site every day.

Hmm...interesting.

Makes sense, a game of his in the mini theme queau did just fill up. Unfortunatly, I wasn't able to actually confirm that he was around at night because of this, because his last post in the queau forum was back on the 19th. Tarballs made no posts anywhere on this site between June 25th and June 30th. So we really have no way of knowing if that's true.

For the record, I was also on briefly a few times during the bash, on Ether's laptop which she brought, and I would have been able to send in a nightkill if I had been scum. I didn't post anything while I got on, though, so I can't prove tat either.

I believe that the wolves did indeed screw up last night, because we pretty likely would've had the exact same suspects for this day, had they killed someone and made it a lylo. So this can't be a WIFOM trap "for stupid townies to jump on". That makes me believe that Yos has to be one of the wolves, and the other one is most likely Caboose, who seems to have forgotten about this game entirely. Really can't see how anyone else but those two could've failed to send a kill.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure the wolves did screw up. I'm not as confident as you that that proves they weren't around; I've seen scum teams just fail to get in kills while they were around, it just happened in the lynch all lurkers game I modded for example and both of the scum posted in the scum quicktopic that night. That being said, it does dramatically increase the odds of Caboose being scum, and I'm perfectly willing to vote there today.

Vote:Caboose

[Yosarian2]

Yeah, after that last post, I'm almost completly sure Iamusername is town. I don't think he would have made that post as a member of either scum group.

[Yosarian2]

In other news, I could also go with a Caboose lynch, since he's going to be lynched at some point anyway and this game is pretty much lost if he doesn't flip wolf.

I really hate that reasoning.

[Yosarian2]

I just sent the mod a question about this, and got the answer.

If I had been scum, knowing I would be away, I would have asked the mod if I could have sent the night choice in early, even before night started. I just sent the mod a PM asking him in the hypothetical if he would have accepted that, and he would have.

So the theory that I am a warewolf who didn't get the nightchoice in is incorrect; if I had been a warewolf, I would have been able to get the nightchoice in early, and I definatly would have, since I've know for months I would be away.

I'm pretty happy with my Caboose vote. He wasn't around at all, so if he's a wolf it could partially explain their lack of a night choice.

[Yosarian2]

Thirdly, about the no kill last night. Caboose(me) still would have a partner who could send the night kill in, and if he was online to set up his game surely he could send in a simple night kill. Tarballs, according to IAAUU, posted 5 hours before, so I don't see why he couldn't send in a night kill at that time. Yos is the only one that fully fits this "theory". He gets even more suspicious w/ this post:

Anyway, Iamusername makes a good argument there. I've seen scum fail to get in nightkills for no good reason before even when they're around, but I wouldn't be surprised if at least one of the two wolves was away last night. I could see lynching either Caboose or Tarballs today.

He completely ignores the fact that his name was also mentioned in Iamausername's post, possible buddying up to avoid further scrutiny from UN(yes I'm going to write your name differently every time )? And the whole 'at least one of two wolves' is completely faulty, since only one were partner would need to be present anyways to send in a night kill.

How is it suspicious that I didn't suggest lynching myself? That's absurd. After all, I know I'm town. It dosn't mean the theory is invalid, only that from my point of view, I know it dosn't apply to me.

In my experence, scum groups usually get used to one person sending in the kill every night. If that person is not around, and the partner does not realize this, then it's not uncommon for the scum group to fail to get an action in. It also sometimes happens that all of the scum group is around and they just screw up and miss the deadline anyway. But, despite this, this is a reason to be more suspicious of the people who were not around then of those who were around, and I am saying this despite the fact that I was not around and am town anyway.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure the wolves did screw up. I'm not as confident as you that that proves they weren't around; I've seen scum teams just fail to get in kills while they were around, it just happened in the lynch all lurkers game I modded for example and both of the scum posted in the scum quicktopic that night. That being said, it does dramatically increase the odds of Caboose being scum, and I'm perfectly willing to vote there today.

Which is it? Inactivity or just failed to get a kill in?

\

Well, obviously, I don't know; the only people who actualy know if they just failed to get a kill in or if they were inactive, or some combination of the two, are the wolves themselves. It does increase your odds of being scum, though.

[Yosarian2]

How is it suspicious that I didn't suggest lynching myself? That's absurd. After all, I know I'm town. It dosn't mean the theory is invalid, only that from my point of view, I know it dosn't apply to me.

Misrep much? When in that entire post did I suggest you lynching yourself? My point is that you completely neglected defending yourself, and instead attempted to get IAAU to forget about you and focus only on Tarballs and I.

Eh? IAAU made an argument that makes both me, Tarballs, and you look bad. I actually agreed that the argument was logical, as I made clear, although I obviously know it dosn't apply to me. What more do you expect me to say about it?

I actually did defend myself later, if you notice, in post 355. Nonetheless, Iam made an arguemnt in the form of "people who do X are more likely to be scum", and I agree with the arguemnt, even though I did X and I am town.

Well, obviously, I don't know; the only people who actualy know if they just failed to get a kill in or if they were inactive, or some combination of the two, are the wolves themselves. It does increase your odds of being scum, though.

If it increases my chance it increases your as well, and I'm pretty sure you aren't saying that you are scum. Your logic is faulty.

No, my logic is not. Of course it increses my chances of being scum; it certanly dosn't increase them to 100%, and I am, in fact, town, but that dosn't actually invalidate the argument.

If "People who do X are more likely to be scum then people who do not do X", that argument may very well be correct even though I did X and am town. You're trying to find a contradiction where none exists.

I also find it interesting you're defending Tarballs here and attacking me. Your defense of Tarballs seems to be "He could have gotten the night choice in; after all, he was around 5 hours before night started." Well, sure, since the mod apparenlty accepts night choices sent in before night starts if you know you'll be away, he could have, if he knew he was going to be gone for the entire night. I did know I was going to be away for a week, so therefore I also could have sent it in beforehand; in fact, I would have had far more reason to do so then either you or tarballs. So why are you attacking me for this and defending him? Is it just because I'm voting you?

[Yosarian2]

Eh? IAAU made an argument that makes both me, Tarballs, and you look bad. I actually agreed that the argument was logical, as I made clear, although I obviously know it dosn't apply to me. What more do you expect me to say about it?

Maybe show how IAAU's statements didn't really work?

But they do, more or less. In fact, that's part of the reason I think you're scum.

I actually did defend myself later, if you notice, in post 355. Nonetheless, Iam made an arguemnt in the form of "people who do X are more likely to be scum", and I agree with the arguemnt, even though I did X and I am town.

Saying something that you can't prove isn't really defending yourself.

Sure, I can prove it. If you don't believe me, ask the mod the same hypothetical question yourself. And I can also certanly prove that I knew I was going to be away for the entire time; there's a whole thread on GD about it, in fact. What part of it, exactally, are you saying I can't prove?

And by agreeing with his argument you were saying that while you shouldn't be suspected for those reasons, Tarballs and Caboose could. It doesn't make any sense.

Again, I never said that. I did, and do, expect to be suspected because I wasn't around. People who suspect me for that reason would be wrong, but that dosn't mean the logic isn't sound.

No, my logic is not. Of course it increses my chances of being scum; it certanly dosn't increase them to 100%, and I am, in fact, town, but that dosn't actually invalidate the argument.

Again, if inactivity is the case for the no kill, and I'm being suspected because Caboose wasn't apparently a part of the game at that time(even though IAAU pointed out that he was active on the site during that time), then you, being the only logical partner for me in this case, should suspect yourself.

...

I should suspect myself?

Confirm vote:Hero

I'm hardly the "only logical partner". Neither Caboose (the person you replaced) nor Tar posted anywhere on the site during the entire night, and, as I've pointed out multiple times, if one person out of a 2 member scum team isn't online, then it will increase the odds of them failing to get a kill in.

Why are you completly ignoring what I say, Hero, and just responding with non-sequetors like "You are my only logical partner" and "You should suspect yourself"?

If "People who do X are more likely to be scum then people who do not do X", that argument may very well be correct even though I did X and am town. You're trying to find a contradiction where none exists.

What?

Theory: People who are not around at night when a kill is missed are more likely to be scum.

Fact (from my point of view, at least): I was not around at night, and I am town.

If you think about it, that fact DOES NOT DISPROVE that theory, because that theory just said that people who were not around ARE MORE LIKELY to be scum, not that they ALL MUST BE scum. Do you really not understand the distinction here?

I also find it interesting you're defending Tarballs here and attacking me. Your defense of Tarballs seems to be "He could have gotten the night choice in; after all, he was around 5 hours before night started." Well, sure, since the mod apparenlty accepts night choices sent in before night starts if you know you'll be away, he could have, if he knew he was going to be gone for the entire night. I did know I was going to be away for a week, so therefore I also could have sent it in beforehand; in fact, I would have had far more reason to do so then either you or tarballs. So why are you attacking me for this and defending him? Is it just because I'm voting you?

1) Tarballs posted on this site during the night(5 hours before daybreak), that's why if he's my scum partner he could've easily sent in a night kill.

So, you're annoyed that he forgot to send it in, apparently?

2) I'm attacking you for suspecting me when the exact same logic makes you my scum partner. For using illogical reasoning to vote for me. I would be doing the same thing if you had attacked anyone else. So no, its not because you are voting for me.

No, it does not. How many times do I have to explain this here?

[Yosarian2]

Sure, I can prove it. If you don't believe me, ask the mod the same hypothetical question yourself. And I can also certanly prove that I knew I was going to be away for the entire time; there's a whole thread on GD about it, in fact. What part of it, exactally, are you saying I can't prove?

You don't know what I'm talking about? You're the one who pointed it out for me:

For the record, I was also on briefly a few times during the bash, on Ether's laptop which she brought, and I would have been able to send in a nightkill if I had been scum. I didn't post anything while I got on, though, so I can't prove tat either.

Ah. I was actually talking about post 355, not 335. I wouldn't really consider that a defense.

Don't you just love misreps? Read closely: You would be forced to suspect yourself ONLY if you continue using this logic.

Again, no, no I don't.

1) Caboose is me, he can't be my partner.
2) Tarballs did post, 5 hours before daybreak.

Ok.

3) You didn't post, so yes you would be the only logical partner.

Only if I was trying to argue that both partners must have been away all night, WHICH I NEVER DID. Stop trying to put other people's words into my mouth.

4) Bolded makes absolutely no sense. Only one werewolf needs to be present in order to send in the night kill. Please show how one being absent decreases the likelihood of a night kill being sent in. If anything it would INCREASE the chance since there wouldn't be a second person for the first one to argue with.

Ok, let me explain this, because again, I've seen this happen. Let's say that Caboose sent in the nightkill night 1 and night 2. Let's also say, just for the sake of argument, that he and his partner didn't talk much. If his partner wasn't aware Caboose was gone night 3, then there's a pretty high chance that the nightkill might just not get sent in.

Again, i've seen it happen before.

Using more faulty logic to try and get me lynched. Scummy.

Nothing faulty about my logic at all.

[Yosarian2]

I'm still happy lynching Hero. The whole way he's attacking me simply because I attacked him yesterday just makes him look worse.

[Yosarian2]

There was noting horrible about my logic, hero. I explained it to you like 6 times yesterday. There's no way you still don't understand what I am saying. Therefore, I do think your attack on me is OMGUS, because I don't get how you could have a problem with my posts yesterday otherwise.

[Yosarian2]

Tell me Yos, how often do you think something like this could happen? Just because you've "seen it happen" doesn't mean that it's valid reasoning to use against someone. Maybe on day 2, but in MYLO?

It happens pretty often, actually. In any case, if the scum failed to get the kill in, I would expect both members of the scum team to not be paying much attention to the game; not to be completly inactive, perhaps, but people who are only semi-active. No matter how you look at it, it can only make Caboose look worse.

Anyway, that certanly isn't my only reason for suspecting you. My biggest problem with Caboose's play is simply that I had absolutly no reason to think he was pro-town, I had no read on him at all, which usually means that someone is scum. And your play since you replaced in has mostly just been to flail and attack me for attacking you.

[Yosarian2]

It happens pretty often, actually. In any case, if the scum failed to get the kill in, I would expect both members of the scum team to not be paying much attention to the game; not to be completly inactive, perhaps, but people who are only semi-active. No matter how you look at it, it can only make Caboose look worse.

...it only takes like a minute of paying attention to the game to send a kill in.

Yes. And the scum didn't do that, apparently. So, what does that tell you?

If you claim you are town and I'm scum, then my scum partner was certainly active that night

Except obviously he wasn't.

Look, the most likely scenerio here is that both members of hte scum team were careless, not paying attention, and perhaps didn't care much about the game. This is especally true since even if they wouldn't be around they could still have sent a kill in beforehand. They may have just screwed up for some other reason, but even then, that's more likely to happen if they're not paying attention to the game. And all of that makes Caboose look worse.

And again, I attacked you for using flawed logic, even if you think I'm wrong, you can't just dismiss it as OMGUS. Doing so is incredibly scummy.

You are claiming my logic is flawed, even though it clearly is not. Therefore, either you are using OMGUS, which is scummy, or you are attacking me with flawed logic, which (as you just said) is scummy.

Also, to be fair, I've not even been in this game for a full 24 hours of the day phases.

I know. It sucks when you replace in and you're scum and your predecessor screwed up, huh?

[Yosarian2]

]How do you know what scum did? Is it because you're scum?

Um, no it's because the scum didn't kill anyone, and if they were paying attention they should have.

There's a number of reasons for them not sending in a nightkill

Like what?

, and you're just assuming that your theory(that inactivity caused it) is correct, and I'm telling you that it is highly unlikely.

Eh? That dosn't make any sense. How is it "highly unlikely"? It happens all the time that scum just fail to get a kill in because they're not paying attention or not around or not thinking or there's a miscommunication or something. I can think of any number of games where it's happened.

Except obviously he wasn't.

Look, the most likely scenerio here is that both members of hte scum team were careless, not paying attention, and perhaps didn't care much about the game. This is especally true since even if they wouldn't be around they could still have sent a kill in beforehand. They may have just screwed up for some other reason, but even then, that's more likely to happen if they're not paying attention to the game. And all of that makes Caboose look worse.

What the hell makes that the most likely scenario? I certainly don't think it is. Sending in a night action is probably the easiest part of the game.

[/quote]

Well, then, what do you think happened?

Yes, sending in a nightkill is easy, but it's also a pretty easy thing to forget to do, especally if your scumbuddy has vanished.

What scenerio do you think is more likely for why the scum didn't kill, then?

[Yosarian2]

ALso, I really, really find it scummy the way you've ignoring everything else that happens all game and all you seem to care about is me supporting the theory that the fact that no one got a kill in makes Caboose look worse, especally since I'm not even the only one who thinks that's true.

We're in lynch or lose, hero. Why aren't you scumhunting? Why are you just flipping out on me just because I suspect you?

[Yosarian2]

Yos2 and Caboose (now Hero) would be forced to slam each other as there is a 100% chance one of them would be scum today.

Excuse me? "100% chance"? Where do you get that from, exactally?

I'm calling it. Scum team is Hero and Wulfy.

[Yosarian2]

What do you mean where do I get that? My theory yesterday states that between the three of Tarballs, Yos2, and Hero (caboose) there is (essentially) a 100% chance of at least one scum. I can't even fathom the contrary.

You "can't even fathom" the contrary? That's hard to believe. There's no way a pro-town person could be 100% certain of ANYTHING, especally involving the scum kill.

From my point of view, it looks like yeterday you distanced from Caboose/Hero while actually pushing the tarballs lynch over his without any really good reason, while I was actually trying quite hard to lynch Hero instead of tarballs. Now, it looks like you're willing to bus Hero, but only if it means you can get me lynched tommorow in a 3 man endgame for the scum win; the way you're trying to say that "hero and yos are both scum" really looks like you're trying to set up a scum win tommorow.

Plus, both OGML and Iamusername have looked pretty pro-town to me this game. That really just leaves you and Hero.

Today, one of those people (Tarballs) is gone, so why would my reasoning not continue to say my above statement that concludes a 100% chance of wolf between you and Hero. I feel that you're reaching Yos2.

It's not that one of those people "is gone". You delibratly pushed for tarballs to be lynched, instead of the obvscum Hero. And now you're willing to bus hero, but only if you can connect him to me first.

[Yosarian2]

This is part of my sentiments exactly. Maybe, you're town. However, that doesn't explain why your paranoia. I stated that between you and Hero there is a 100% chance of scum. I didn't intend this to mean the scum team.

I still don't get how you would think that anything is 100%. I'm not 100% sure of anything in this game, or in almost any game when I'm town.

So, we both think that UN and OGML is town. You are attacking me because I'm making the obvious deduction that Hero and Yos2 is scum?

I'm attacking you because you are acting in a way that I would expect the scum to act both today and yesterday.

You haven't actually answered my main concern here, wolfy. Why were you pushing the tarballs wagon over the hero wagon yesterday? You kept saying that you would be willing to lynch either, but I think that was a smokescreen; you didn't really seem interested in lynching hero yesterday, looking at your actions and your votes, despite your words.

I mean, really. You're creating a giant ball of speculation based on conjecture and nonsense. Then again, you might be caught scum who is trying his best bet, which is to attack anyone with baseless speculation...

It's not speculation or nonesense. It certanly is conjecture, but that's a bit part of what mafia is about. For the most part, it's just that the most likely scum is you-hero, and your actions today and yesterday seem to fit that model perfectly. Especally with you pushing the unlikely "hero and yos are scum together" theory, when I really can't imagine you believing that as town, considering the way I've been basically the main one attacking him both yesterday and today and considering the way he was fighting back.

It's not impossible, but I still wanna continue picking through other potential pairings. One can be wrong, you know.

Oh? I thought you had already declared that there was a 100% chance of you being right?

[Yosarian2]

So this is how I see it happening.

1. We lynch hero today. He flips scum, as he obviously will.

2. OGML dosn't get killed tonight, even though he's obvtown, for the same reason you've been keeping him alive all game; because you want him to vote for me in endgame.

3. OGML then has to make a decision. You figured you had it in the bag, especally if you tie me to hero strongly enough, and especally with OGML's game-long suspicions of me. I don't think he's that manipulatable, though.

Well, I guess we'll find out.

Vote:Hero

[Yosarian2]

Hey, Yos, why are you continually ignoring this?

And I suppose you have reads on everyone else? What do you base this reads on? Why does having no read on me 'usually' mean I'm scum?

It certainly isn't helping your case to ignore it.

How am I ignoring it? I did just explain that I have a pro-town read on OGML and Iamusername, and I've actually been saying that for a long time, if you've been reading my posts.

Anyway, if a person has been playing in such a way as to really do nothing, to not give any read of any type, it usually means they're scum, in my opinion; after all, that's generally what scum want to do, is to not be noticed.

Like what?

Like if they wanted to throw off the town.
Like if they couldn't come to an agreement and the time ran out.
Like if they thought killing someone that night would throw suspicion onto them.

There's probably other reasons we can think of too. Fact of the matter is: You can't assume why the scum didn't send in a night kill, and then call it obvious unless you are scum yourself.

The first and third reasons would be terribly bad play; scum could and probably would have won yesterday if they'd killed someone. In any case, bad play would also make wolfy and caboose look bad instead of Iamusername or OGML; they're way too experenced to make a mistake like that.

The second reason is certanly possible, but again, that's more likely to happen if the scum aren't paying much attention to the game or don't care very much about the game, which is exactally what I was saying all along.

Eh? That dosn't make any sense. How is it "highly unlikely"? It happens all the time that scum just fail to get a kill in because they're not paying attention or not around or not thinking or there's a miscommunication or something. I can think of any number of games where it's happened.[/quote
1) I've never seen it happen.
2) There are other explanations as well.
3) You can't just assume that's the only possible explanation.

1. I just told you about a game where it did happen, Lynch all Lurkers, a recently completed game I just modded. Do I need to find you more examples?

2. Sure, but none that make sense to me, unless the scum are playing very badly.

3. I never said it was. But the fact that it's a likely explination makes you more likely to be scum, which is all I ever said about the subject.

Anyway, if you want me to unvote you now, you need to convince me that either Iamusername or OGML are more likely scum then you are; because if they're both town, then you have to be scum, from my point of view.

Well, then, what do you think happened?

I don't know. I think you do know Yos.

He then goes on to spin some conspiricy theory about me being scum with OGML, which dosn't really make any sense at all.

[Yosarian2]

I like how you've spent so much time arguing that we can't possibly have any idea why the wolves didn't kill anyone on N3, then you go ahead and use this as a point in your case anyway.

Yos seems to think he has an idea though, and one way in which he would have that is if he was scum himself and knew full well what had happened. The fact that his proposed reason also works extraordinarily well with my proposed scum team is suspect.

No, the fact that my speculation about the kill makes me look bad is actually why I would not have proposed it as scum. Duh.

I'm more interested in finding scum then in worrying how I look, so I was willing to speculate about the missing kill in order to figure out who the scum were, even though that specualation might from the outside make me look bad.

Also, why are you just attacking me with this? Iamusername actually proposed the idea first, and yet you haven't attacked him at all for "having an idea" about why the scum had missed a kill. For that matter, Wolfy has been the supporting the idea as well, and so was OGML; every single living person other then you did exactally what you're attacking me for, and yet that dosn't seem to bother you at all. Why? Is it just because you think I'm an easier lynch then Iamusername or OGML?

[Yosarian2]

And Yos2 completely neglects to explain or give a refutation of any kind.

No, I don't feel the need to "refute" it; your theory is so weak, and so illogical (basically just "Yos and OGML are scum together because OGML thinks Yos is scum and Yos thinks OGML is town!") I doubt anyone will take it seriously.

[Yosarian2]

I think this is you trying to set up a lynch for tomorrow

Funny you would say that, when that's all you've been doing all day. I had wanted to just lynch Hero and move on, but you have been acting so scummy.

Now, it wouldn't matter who the wolf kills because according to your theory, I'm guilty. If you, who I am now completely certain is a wolf, kill OGML, you'll simply claim that because of the above post, I killed OMGL to look better in UN's eyes. If you kill UN, you'll claim I left OGML alive as you predicted, and with this much projection and speculation, even I'd be confused (if I were either UN or OGML).

Well, of course we know you won't die, because you're the wolf. And of course we know I won't die, because you've been trying to set up my mislynch all day.

And yes, I'm playing WIFOM games with you and with you you're going to kill tonight, trying to make your choice a little harder for you. I'm trying to mix things up, because if I hadn't said anything, I think tommorow would have ended up with a you-me-OGML endgame, and if I'm right about you being scum, I think town would have lost that, unless I started making the case today. SOrry I made your kill choice harder for you here, scum.

By the way, that "who I'm now completly certain is a wolf" line is a dead giveaway. You're scum, wolfy. Earlier, you were pretending to try to look at things with an open mind, and now that I've cut down your options, you're just going after me. Fine. Bring it, scum.

You've done nothing today but throw up pure speculation to confuse everyone for the lylo situation, which will definitely have either you or Hero (assuming both are scum).

If you're that sure, then why aren't you voting Hero now? Hoping you can perhaps get me mislynched today instead and can skip the whole lynch or lose thing?

If this is 100% accurate, you're entire act today has been the scummiest play all day.

Eh? My act today? I've been trying to lynch hero, who I think is scum, and trying to figure out who his scum buddy is. How the hell is that "scummy"?

Not to even MENTION your broad strokes of my recent game play, such as how my "play yesterday and today is exactly how I'd think scum would act."

Um...that's how you find scum. You figure out how scum would likely act in a given situation, and then you look for people who act that way.

You're casting soft doubt and tossing up more and more speculation.

"soft doubt"? "speculation"? No, I think I've figured out what's going on this game, and how to win it for the town. If you are town, then you need to convince me I'm wrong, or else town is going to lose. But you're not even trying, which is fine, because I don't think I'm wrong here.

In *fact*, the only person you have attacked strongly or defended well against is Hero. My guess is that this is due to some plan concocted N4 due to the screw up no-kill you and Caboose had N3.

Yes, I've been attacking hero. So that makes us scum together?

And you're calling MY arguments "casting soft doubt" and "speculation"? lol. You are SO scum.

NOTE: All the above assumes Yos2 and Caboose (hero) is the scum team.

Right. So if you assume me and hero are scum together, then you can use that assumption to prove me and hero are scum together?

Nice circular reasoning there.

Now, as for why I voted Tarballs yesterday:
Copy pasted from IAUN's voting post yesterday:
1) Huge inconsistency in his opinion on fallen angel.
2) Another incosistency as to whether people should have to provide their own reasoning to join a bandwagon.
3) Spent D3 repeatedly saying "need to hunt us some wolves", but at no point actually did anything about it.
4) Carefully avoided taking a side in the Yos/Mastin bust-up.

As I have also said: For the same reasons Caboose looks like wolf, Tarballs looked like wolf. And in my next post, I stated that Caboose and Tar were nearly tied, but I leaned slightly toward Tar that day. I even stated, however, that Tar+Caboose was my fav scum pair, but you got wound up as you were the next scummiest player.

Right, and that is exactally why I suspect you of being his scum partner. All day yesterday, you kept distancing from Caboose, but you ended up lynching Tarballs instead of Caboose at the end of the day. If Caboose/Hero is scum, then that behavior makes you look quite bad.

Wolfy, if you were town, you really should be able to understand why I'm suspicious of you here. The fact that me mentioning I'm suspicious of you being Hero's scum partner suddenly makes you "convinced" I'm scum just makes you look worse here.

Plus, you didn't have an issue with my vote yesterday. If you did, why not bring it up? Instead of explaining why any of our votes were wrong (UN, mine, and well...I guess Sotty would have wanted to get wolf too), you simply kept attacking Hero.

And, if Hero is scum, how the hell is me attacking Hero a bad thing?

Look, I'm convinced that between Hero and Tarballs, we lynched the wrong guy yesterday. Odds are, if I'm right abut Hero being scum, Hero's scum partner tipped the lynch towards Tarballs instead of Hero. So I looked back to see who in the game looked like they might have been scum trying to get the wrong guy lynched. Again, that's how you scum hunt, Wolfy. You look at lynched that went well and lynches that went badly, and see who was pushing what angle, and try to figure out why.

You presented a grand logical fallacy in your earlier wifom that I already attack as a "damned either way" ploy to cast doubt on me and my play all game. However, the basis is illogical because one player thinks your guilty and the other thinks I'm town. We both have a town read on them, therefore YOU are my obvious target. And you use this to attack me when you drew the same conclusion (if you were town)? Weak.

Eh? I don't understand what you're getting at here, Wolfy.

If OGML and Iamusername are town, then you must be scum, of course. That wasn't the only thing I used to attack you, though. I also thing that how hard you were trying to draw a connection between me and Hero is incredibly scummy.

[Yosarian2]

Anyway, I've been voting Hero a while now, and the scum haven't piled on for the quicklynch, which makes me entierly confident that Hero is scum. Let's lynch him and move on.

[Yosarian2]

I think this is you trying to set up a lynch for tomorrow

Funny you would say that, when that's all you've been doing all day. I had wanted to just lynch Hero and move on, but you have been acting so scummy.

Point 1: "I just wanted to lynch Hero and move on." ~Yos2
This=Scummy. You prove, as much as this game allows you, that a person is scum then lynch them. You don't seem very interested in that considering this sentence.

Um, yes, that is exactally what I was doing. I origionally wasn't especally interested in figuring out hero's partner today.

Point 2: "You have been acting so scummy." ~Y2
A broad generalization without any facts to back it up as a statement.

Heh. I've given pleanty of facts, wolfy.

You still haven't explained the origional scumtell that I noticed, which was why, exactally, you were "100%" sure that "either hero or yos is scum". If I was in your position, and I was town, I would have been at least a little worried about the possibility that me and hero were both town fighting each other, especally since I hadn't voted him yet. The fact you weren't at all concerned about that possibility seems like a huge scum tell to me.

Now, it wouldn't matter who the wolf kills because according to your theory, I'm guilty. If you, who I am now completely certain is a wolf, kill OGML, you'll simply claim that because of the above post, I killed OMGL to look better in UN's eyes. If you kill UN, you'll claim I left OGML alive as you predicted, and with this much projection and speculation, even I'd be confused (if I were either UN or OGML).

Well, of course we know you won't die, because you're the wolf. And of course we know I won't die, because you've been trying to set up my mislynch all day.

So now you're saying that if you die, I'm scum because if I was scum, I would purposely kill you to confuse who, in your hypothetical, is the remaining town in OGML and IAUN. If I were scum, you're not making a difficult case, your painting me red. Essentially, you've made it seem like no matter the night kill, unless I die, I'm scum. That is...well, I have to admit that it is a prime wolf move in your position.

(grin) Except if I was a wolf, I wouldn't die at night, now would I?

I think you already know I'm town, especally when you make comments like that.

By the way, that "who I'm now completly certain is a wolf" line is a dead giveaway. You're scum, wolfy. Earlier, you were pretending to try to look at things with an open mind, and now that I've cut down your options, you're just going after me. Fine. Bring it, scum.

Cut down what options? You've don no such thing.

Earlier today, you kept going on about possible scum pairs, about how it was "66% likely that hero and yos are scum together" (pulling more numbers out of thin air here) and all that. Once I attacked you, that stopped completly. At that point you, as scum, would basically have had no choice but to try to get me lynched, either today or tommorow. Whereas you as town would probably still try to keep an open mind. You reacted like scum.

ALSO, if you were town, you wouldn't be cutting someone's options down (in terms of who to attack).

I'm not "cutting your options down" except by attacking you. That limits your options if you're scum, because it means you won't be able to get me to help you mislynch someone else.

. You know your partner's caught, so you had to pick someone else for his partner.

Hah. Assuming Hero is scum (which I can now since he hasn't been speedlynched after I voted him), *I* am the one who caught him. I am the one who decided Caboose was probably scum yesterday and went after him, instead of going after Tarballs. You're trying to make it sound like hero getting caught is just something that "happened"; no, I caught him. Just like I've caught you now too.

I post once per day and haven't missed anything. So explain how I would have missed a night kill.

That's a good question. Why did you miss the night kill?

He hasn't been the most active player all game, so do you really think someone who visits this site every day would just miss the night kill action?

...

You, Yos2, did know you would be going to the Beach. And sure, maybe you could have sent in a pre-nk, but you would have known Caboose was around.

You do realize the contradiction here, right? He hasn't been the most active person all game, so do you really think I would just count on him sending in the nightkill instead of just doing it myself?

If OGML and Iamusername are town, then you must be scum, of course. That wasn't the only thing I used to attack you, though. I also thing that how hard you were trying to draw a connection between me and Hero is incredibly scummy.

Drawing connections. It's called "scum hunting" and is therefore pro town and not scummy. Oh, and you should take your own advice, if I am scum, then you better explain to me how your town, because then I know who my next guess is.

How I'm town?

I've been scumhunting all game, and doing a good job at it. I've caught both mafia and, now with hero, wolf. Not only am I town, I've been quite active, effective, and useful town. What else do you expect me to say?

Just, right now, you're doing a really shitty job of defending yourself, so I'm kind of hoping your not town for my own sanity. If you flip town... I'm going to be so pissed with myself.

I haven't been trying to defend myself, because you haven't actually been attacking me with anything logical.

AH!, I did think of something! I'm not voting Hero because there is a still a small chance that he's not scum and you are. It is small, but not impossible.

Actually, I think you're not voting Hero because you think there is still a small chance you can get me lynched today and not your scum partner. You've been so sure he was scum all day, but you've been so reluctent to vote him. Dead giveaway there.

[Yosarian2]

Also, I really hope everyone does realize that there's no way I would have attacked Wolfy today if I was scum trying to mislynch Hero, like he's now suggesting, especally since Wolfy was already quite willing to vote Hero before I voted him. If I was scum and hero was town, there's no way I would suddenly go off and pick a fight with Wolfy like that; I would have been trying to manipulate wolfy into voting hero instead.

Plus, there's no way me and hero could be town together, since I've been voting him and he hasn't been lynched even though everyone's posted.

Really, everyone reading this game now should be completly confident that either I am town and Hero is scum, or that me and hero are both scum. There are no other possibilities; Hero simply must be scum here. So can we please just lynch him already?

[Yosarian2]

Interesting.

Actually, after that last post of Iamusername, I am absolulty 100% convinced he's town now; if he was scum I would expect him to encourage me and wolfy to fight.

And I do agree, we really need to hear from OGML before we end the day. He's been way too quiet.

[Yosarian2]

Well, all the logic I need now, hero, is:

You're at lynch -1

I'm pro-town and voting you

You haven't been hammered.

Therefore, you must be scum.

[Yosarian2]

You still haven't explained the origional scumtell that I noticed, which was why, exactally, you were "100%" sure that "either hero or yos is scum". If I was in your position, and I was town, I would have been at least a little worried about the possibility that me and hero were both town fighting each other, especally since I hadn't voted him yet. The fact you weren't at all concerned about that possibility seems like a huge scum tell to me.

So, yeah, Yos, do please realise that all this means is that Wulfy was sure that the scumteam was not OGML/username, which is something that you yourself have more or less been saying all day. Yes, he can't really be

100% certain

as town, but it's just a little bit of hyperbole. Townies do that all the time.

I understand; I am just a little put off by his confidence there. Saying "100%" is not an inherent scum tell, but in that specific situation, I would have been much more nervous if I were him and town.

[Yosarian2]

Geez...the mod deleated OMGL's posts?

And the posts where we were talking about OGML's posts?

If you haven't been replaced him yet, mod, then he's still playing.

Thats not your desicion.
And why would you deleate a post of wolfy?

[Yosarian2]

In any case, if the mod isn't going to let OMGL play , then I guess we can't go anything until the mod finds a replacement for OGML. (twiddles thumbs)

[Yosarian2]

Anyway, I'm leaning towards voting wolfy at this point. Of course, we can't actually lynch anyone unless the mod either lets OMGL play or finds a replacement.

Honestly, I'm not sure why he dosn't just let OMGL play at this point, especally if he's finding trouble finding a replacement, and especally since the game is almost over.

[Yosarian2]

What does "whatever" mean? Are we waiting for a replacment, or what?

[Yosarian2]

Note rule 16, Thats why i deleted your posts.

That rule wasn't actually there an hour ago.

[Yosarian2]

Anyway, that's not the worst part. The big problem is why you randomally deleated posts by me and wolfy.

[Yosarian2]

Plus, OGML still has not actually been replaced in any case.

[Yosarian2]

Anyway, we'll discuss this after the game is over. For future reference, deleating game posts from an ongoing game is just bad modding, because game posts are how you figure out someone's alignment.

Plus, I think your modding errors here have just confirmed that OGML is pro-town, since he couldn't possibly have sent the kill in if you didn't consider him to be "in the game" while it was night. Not that it really matters, since I had already figured out wolfy was the scum, but it's still bad.

Vote:wolfy

[Yosarian2]

Good, good. ALso, yeah me for nailing the entire warewolf scum group yesterday.

[Yosarian2]

Lol. Nice try, wolfy.

By the way, in case you were wondering, this was the final nail in your coffin.

If the mod wanted to replace OGML before night ended, then why not just prolong night until a replacement is found?

*sighs*

The point when you were upset that the mod accidently confirmed OGML as town was the final thing that made me confident enough to vote you this quickly.

[Yosarian2]

Lol. Nice try, wolfy.

By the way, in case you were wondering, this was the final nail in your coffin.

If the mod wanted to replace OGML before night ended, then why not just prolong night until a replacement is found?

*sighs*

The point when you were upset that the mod accidently confirmed OGML as town was the final thing that made me confident enough to vote you this quickly.

Anger? Of course I'm angry! I am overly competitive and cheating isn't my idea of winning. If your scum, your might be very well capable of pulling out more BS than me to support a case based on logic, emotions, opinions, diction and whatever the hell else is lying around. If OGML were scum (while the mod essentially confirmed him), his experience might lead the same thing. However, I cannot stand winning a game (should OGML make the correct choice and vote you) by what I chalk up to cheating, an unfair advantage. I know this seems like a load of bull, but I would be so willing to go for game abandonment. Winning isn't everything. It's fairly beating your opponent. People being stupid isn't a reason to win or lose. Especially if its the moderator's fault. CJmiller? That didn't make it fair for town. I have that moron, but at least he was part of the game. A moderator error like that? One that essentially proves OGML is town?

Yeah, I know. It really isn't fair. I feel frustrated too.

That being said...I don't think it changes anything. Right or wrong (and it's pretty clear, at least to me, that it's right) I was going to vote you today anyway. So in this case, it dosn't acually change the course of the game at all.

[Yosarian2]

Dude, I still didn´t say that OGML couldn´t have submitted a night action...

After the game, dude. After the game. It's not your place to be saying things like this now.

[Yosarian2]

Well, I feel bad because without all these shenanigans there was a pretty decent chance I would have ended up being the lynch today.

To be honest, you wouldn't have been. I was basically going to end up voing wolfy today no matter what.

Also, I called it.

Yos2 and Caboose (now Hero) would be forced to slam each other as there is a 100% chance one of them would be scum today.

Excuse me? "100% chance"? Where do you get that from, exactally?

I'm calling it. Scum team is Hero and Wulfy.

You guys did both play very well, though. Hero was just put in a bad position, and Wulfy played well thoroughout the entire game.

[Yosarian2]

Some general notes:

Mod:

1. If there's a post in the game that at least some people have seen, deleating it is very, very bad for the integrety of the game. The whole reason for the no editing rules and all that is that everyone should see everything that's going on in the game, and be able to go back and reference it if necessary. If someone posts a role PM or something like that, then deleating it might be necessary, but short of that, it should never happen.

In this case, we were playing the game, we were debating stuff, and you actually interfered with us doing that; you prevented us from having a discussion about who was scum, and actually deleated the entire discussion, deleating posts from everyone in the game. (And a bah post from Iamusername, even though your rules specifically say that one bah post is allowed.) That basically ruined the endgame of what was otherwise a very, very good game.

2. If people are making arguments in thread about how "the mod just confirmed so-and-so" or whever, it's not your job to argue against that. You really should never be debating someone's alignment in thread with the players, under any circumstances.

3. If you hadn't made a specific point of deleating OGML's posts, I wouldn't have taken the "Oh, the mod wouldn't have take night actions from him" argument seriously, because usually, even if a mod is going to replace someone that person is still technially "playing" until a replacement is found. When you made a huge deal of demonstrating that you did not think that, though, it kind of proved OGML was town. Again, I thought he was anyway, but this was a big mistake.

[Yosarian2]

Yos2, I won't say you deserve the win this game because I honestly don't know who should have won.

To be honest...I was really never seriously considering voting OGML. I wanted Iamusername to think I was yesterday so he would hammer hero, heh. But I was pretty much convinced you were scum the whole time.

I will say, however, that your play up until yesterday was by far the worst play I have seen from any player I have ever played with except for Exalt and Mastin. Your play yesterday is the best I have ever seen. Seriously, what the hell is wrong with you?

Heh. Well, I don't know about "the worst"; I was right about Khrisma. But you are right, there were parts of this game where I was too quiet.

I personally don't feel I lost as much as I was cheated. The essential mod confirmation screwed me, and I wouldn't have missed the night kill, but the mod didn't respond for days, and I couldn't imagine a mod would receive a note from a wolf, which does not include a night kill, about his partner's absence, and then start the game so soon after receiving it. The only thing that makes me angry about this is that I PMed Datadonne 2 days prior to deadline, and he didn't respond until about the time he reopened the thread.

Wow. That really does suck. I'm sorry to hear about that.

You played it off very well, trying to turn the missing kill to your advanage, I must say.

Anyway, that's all the comments I have on this game. After this, I am dropping mafia for a while.

I'm sorry to hear that; you're both a very good player, and very pleasent to play with. You completly outplayed everyone for most of the game, and basically everyone (except Khrisma) thought you were town pretty much up until I called you out in lynch or lose.

If it helps, this is a fluke; not that modding errors on mafiascum are unheard of, but I've never seen a game like this before here.