Open 163 (Jungle Republic)- Game Over before 835

[Kill-kill]

Vote Cain

For random-voting me in Newbie 825

[Kill-kill]

Nikanor, I didn't comment on the L-3 situation because at this point I really don't think it matters. Will it be interesting to re-examine in later days? Of course. But for now, I think isn't going to tell us anything. My interpretation:

nikanor: RVS on the most well-known player. [nothing wrong with that]
hohum: I don't like Mastin's posts, so I will RVS/semi-serious vote him! [nothing scummy here]
saberwolf: omg, I hate him too! [meh. again, not liking someone's posting style is a reasonable reason for an early vote; it's not like there was anything real to go on]
cain: bandwagon pls, kthks. [Trying to get a bandwagon, create pressure, this is what day one is about. Though, this is probably a vote to keep in mind]
DT: Whoa. That's a fast bandwagon. I don't like that mastin has that many votes before confirming. [I was uncomfortable with the situation when I read it as well, I don't think it is scummy]
hohum: I like bandwagons. [see brackets about Cain]

That how I read it (I hope it was clear the text-speak was tongue in cheek, but if I offended someone I apologize). So, I really don't think there is anything there deserving of a vote.

[Kill-kill]

To me, this feels like a post for the sake of posting.
Do you have anything new to bring to the table, Kill?

You asked me a question--I answered it. The disagreement was because of the two different points of view on the bandwagon, and in conclusion...

It doesn't indicate that either are scummy.


Satisfied?

[Kill-kill]

Post 88 –

Toro

, can you elaborate how you get this impression?

I had a feeling that Cain was just not really throwing a random vote around since it was just RVS, seeing how he quickly and without really saying anything else just latched right onto the Mastin bandwagon. I don't know Cain's meta really, so I think from looking at that we may have caught inexperienced scum.

I think just inexperienced, period. He fake-claimed scum day one in the other game I am in, and just got lynched (vanilla townie).


ThAdmiral was quite quiet in the one game I have played with him. NK'd day one, town doctor. Stated that he often was quiet when asked about "lurking".

Zazie, I commented when I had something to say. About all I have now is a feeling that out of hohum, nikanor, and DTM one is scum. Cain could either be scummy or just plain weird, and Toro seems to be tunnelling on
Cain, without solid reasons (I understand there are reasons, I am just saying I don't consider them enough to bring out the pitchforks)

[Kill-kill]

4. Kill-Kill: You are keeping your vote on Cain but you mentioned that his meta involved some odd mistakes (ie town claiming scum, etc). Why did you keep your vote if you knew Cain's town meta was poor and you outlined he was looked like he was acting noobish in your ISO 3?

First of all, being noobish as a townie in no way helps the town. However, the main reason is his willingness to jump on the Mastin bandwagon. If he had been trying to use the bandwagon to scum hunt, he would have followed up with questions, suspicions, something. I think his inexperience led him to believe that he could lynch someone who wasn't in his faction early, when an experienced player would know that the wagon would never get a lynch without evidence.

[Kill-kill]

@Kill-kill
It is true, but you are also guilty of doing the something. You are tunneling on Cain without actively scum hunting him (ie asking him questions). Your recent arguments only read as: I am pressing him because he is newb and anti-town, not I'm pressing him because he is scummy.

What questions should I ask him? Are you scum? Why did you vote for Mastin (already answered)? Or, make an argument that someone else is more scummy for you, or I will vote for you. I think the last is most effective.

Your vote and your reasoning do not make sense. You were the one to bring up his meta as being very noobish in your ISO 3, what is different from his last game to this game to suggest his current actions are scummy?

He didn't fake-claim scum.

You skipped my number 1 and number 3 questions which is addressed to both you and Cain. Why? What are your responses to them?

I misread your post and didn't realize those were directed at me.

1: Not you. I would have to say that Cow, Zzazie, and Toro are the three that seem most town to me.
3: There are two things I can do: one, post for the hell of it, throw around weak suspicions and make it easy for scum to defend themselves against a weak attack, or wait and see who actually is scum, and come with a legitimate accusation. I chose the second. Would you prefer that I make thirty "OMG, not capitalizing names is scummy!" posts?

[Kill-kill]

@Kill-kill
1. Yes voting is another way to pressure someone to answer is another method of scum hunting. No you can't say that you don't have questions to ask Cain in the midst of this. Even I had asked both you and Cain questions to answer for your lurker charges. Your hypothetical situation showing that you cannot question scum hunt Cain to me is just a bad excuse to not participate in the town discussion and to continue on with active lurking.

Cain has three posts. Do you really think questioning him would be effective?

This suggests that he is still developing his style. If you are basing your argument on this point you still need to answer for the whole

inexperience part of his meta that you gave us

.

I did. I feel he is inexperienced scum. Do you have any reason to believe that he is not scum?

In fact, why are you arguing to lynch Cain or I when your main argument against me is that I haven't questioned Cain strongly enough?

Can you elaborate on why they are townie. Can you also expand to your top scum picks are right now?

They are not strong town reads--I try to avoid letting myself think that someone is town on Day One. With this many scum, odds are good that I would end up trusting one of them, which could be disastrous if we both survived to the end game. ThAdmiral is V/LA, and with essentially no posts to his name, he is completely null. Cow strikes me as town for arguing against wishy-washy-ness. Toro is at least not in the same faction as Cain--he wouldn't try to bus in the RVS (people would just ignore it), and potentially bandwagoing a teammate would be foolish. Zzazie is more of a null read, but less scummy than others.

With the number of scum, my top scum picks are pretty much everyone not on the town list . That being said, Cain is obviously number one, and after that would be Scott. He hasn't contributed much, merely picked at what others are doing. My opinion of him is scum looking for the other faction.

For the most part this is all true, but you gotta remember a BW has to start somehow. It isn't about the validity of the BW for the first two or three votes...it's about backing it up when the final vote or two is put on it for the lynch.

Yes. But if he had been fishing for reactions (as he essentially said when he stated that he just wanted to start a bandwagon), he would have been all over DTM for trying to derail the wagon, more or less like hohum and nikanor were.

[Kill-kill]

Cow

Comes in, attempts to arbitrate nikanor/DTM argument, and tries to get the discussion back to real scum-hunting

Leads scum hunting against DTM (instead of trying to convince him that he was defending, attacks the noncommital stance)

Silence :-p

Switches to saberwolf for some semantics and OMGUS (not really liking this one, but the OMGUS is a legitimate reason for voting)

Points out that he wasn't on Zzazie's list. This is null in my mind

Overall, nothing I find scummy. And some things that are in the interest of the town. So, leaning town.

Cow: remember to respond :-p

[Kill-kill]

1. Yes because ignoring those questions and "playing anti-town" is another argument against Cain if he doesn't answer them. I don't see how questioning would not be beneficial in your case against Cain, not questioning him is much worse in my opinion.

No, the response would be "Well, he hasn't posted at all, it's not suspicious that he didn't answer." Speaking of which, now he has posted, and did not answer any of your questions. Planning to change your vote in the near future?

"I did. I feel he is inexperienced scum. Do you have any reason to believe that he is not scum?"

Show a sense of bias against him.

Shows a sense of a scum-read. Is there some reason you think he is town?

I get a sense that your posts reads as person going for the easy target, rather then actively trying to scum hunt. You have a large lists of people to be considered scum and a small list of weak townie links. It just feels off when you aren't expanding on which of those links are true or not.

If I were going for the easy target I would be voting for saberwolf.

4. Your Scott statement is interesting, can you point out more on this case?

Read him in ISO. See what you think.

a. I don't quite understand how Toro fits into a more townie scenario then the rest of the list. Your busing argument is WIFOM, so it is a weak reason to state. You assume too much when you say they can't be on the same faction (it looks unlikely but yes too soon), nor does it excludes the potential for Toro being on a different scum faction.

I agree it is weak. I said it was weak. And the odds are a hell of a lot better that he is town if we assume that he can't be in at least one faction. For day one, that is good enough for me. I'm not saying I will fight to the death for him, but at the moment he is a town read.

[Kill-kill]

Kill-kill, are you saying the DTM/nik argument was useless?

What are you referring to?

[Kill-kill]

Kill-kill, are you saying the DTM/nik argument was useless?

What are you referring to?

Cow

Comes in, attempts to arbitrate nikanor/DTM argument, and tries to get the discussion back to real scum-hunting

L

Just wondering what you meant by "real scum-hunting"

Arguing about whether or not he "defended Mastin" was not productive to the extent they took it to. It was time for that track to end.

[Kill-kill]

Secondly, I was the one who asked Cain about his vote. I replaced into this game, and looking at the time stamps, you could have asked him before me. You choose not to do so. Why?

I already answered this, but, with his activity, I didn't see the point. I also already explained why I only answered one question: namely, I misread and didn't think the other two were addressed to me, and I answered them in my next post.

Toro, his behavior since then has changed my mind. He is my number one scum candidate, so my vote is on him.

[Kill-kill]

Secondly, I was the one who asked Cain about his vote. I replaced into this game, and looking at the time stamps, you could have asked him before me. You choose not to do so. Why?

I already answered this, but, with his activity, I didn't see the point. I also already explained why I only answered one question: namely, I misread and didn't think the other two were addressed to me, and I answered them in my next post.

Toro, his behavior since then has changed my mind. He is my number one scum candidate, so my vote is on him.

Problem with this, your vote is not even on me Kill-Kill. And what caused you to change your mind about me?

Well, I can't vote for two people.... In any case, nowhere did I say you were scummy. I said I didn't like how you appeared to be tunneling. Regardless, weak chainsaw defense of Cain noted, despite the fact you are voting for him.

[Kill-kill]

My vote is staying on Cain/peacesells. His lurking, wanting to be replaced at L-2, and his analysis ONLY of the people who voted Cain still sound anti-town to me. Also the little comment about how SW is acting scummiest seems like he's attempting to buddy up to town.

With one read through my general feeling is Saber is scummiest acting (well actually, I would have voted Cain had I not been him as he appeared as a newb scum to me.)

I'm still not sure about SW. The wagon built up so quickly then crumbled, not really sure what to think of that. He certainly has not been acting very town, but I think peacesells is still a better lynch for today.

SW:are you still content with your vote on Nik? What do you think of Cain's replacement?

Getting town reads from DT

I wasn't getting good vibes from hohum, but alas he has vanished. Need to hear more to make an opinion.

Toro has a weird style, but I would lean town for the time being. Not enough to go on here though.

Toro:Why did you unvote?

Still retain my earlier suspicions of lumi.

I am pretty neutral on nikanor, cow, kill, Zaz at the moment.

This is exactly the kind of post I have been looking for from you Scott. Why so long before announcing reads on players? Surely you had some of these before.

[Kill-kill]

Not liking how saber got his own wagon. If he flips scum, Toro in particular is scummy as hell

[Kill-kill]

Why Toro in particular? Why not peacesells or Cow?

He has flipped from the peacesells bandwagon to the hohum wagon, the two competing wagons to saberwolf.

[Kill-kill]

RE: Bolded: Isn't that what town should be looking for? Little comments that show alignment.

Wasn't I doing the same? Looking at a "Little comment" to see alignment?

Do you dictate which comments are little enough?

Are you really that exasperated that I would have the nerve to try and do something that you just said is what we are supposed to be doing?

Really....

so telling you that you screwed up voting now tells alignment?

It was a very obvious fake-vote. He was hoping someone would try to hammer and he could say "HAHA U R SCUM!". I must say, definitely +scum points for peace.

[Kill-kill]

@Kill/Sabre 612/613

You know if townie really hammered before deadline, I would be more suspect of the hammerer then anything. It's scummy to hammer pre-defense and before deadline.

Trying to twist this fact is really poor, and you are basically clearing the hammer if someone followed with the "fake hammer" after the "fake vote". Scum has a tendency to hammer, town doesn't have to and have the luxury to wait and scum hunt.

Bullshit. Scum would never hammer early, it would set them up for the lynch the next day. Scum do whatever they can to get townies to hammer.

I really don't think you understand the concept of a fake vote. It's more often seen in Lylo, a townie votes, scum try a quick-lynch, and then the townie says "Haha, my vote didn't actually count. I win." This is OBVIOUSLY what peace was doing, and chainsaw defense noted. Peace-DTM scumpair, anyone? Remember, he also chainsawed when the wagon was on cain.

2. Cain: Are you still satisfied with your vote on Lumi/Mastin? It's past the RVS now, so if you still like the vote why are you keeping it? What's your case on Lumi?

Could be subtle coaching

@Peace

Welcome to the game! Now can you outline your general read in the town (like a top 3 scum list).

Bam. More coaching (this was immediately after peaceshells replaced in)

Then changes vote from Cain to hohum, possibly realizing that a bus would not be necessary.


However, advocating against a hohum lynch= town points. Anyone else have thoughts on DTM?

[Kill-kill]

@Kill-kill
1. Then if someone hammers, or in this case fake quick hammered, would you still support your theory? You are on a dangerous line because if

anyone quick votes like that it's still scummy.

. No one quick voted so no one else is scummy. You are advocating his play and condemning it at the same time with that justification. Timing is irrelevant if that strategy reveals scum.

Can someone else explain this to him?

2. Your two quotes cannot be interpreted as coaching. I'm not telling Cain/Peace on how to play this game, I'm asking them on their scum thoughts/town thoughts. Anyone who asked a question would be coaching under your definition.

Again, misrepresenting the point. IF you and cain/peace are scum, it can be seen as you coaching a noobish liability (Cain), and trying to salvage it and coordinate with a new partner with whom you couldn't discuss pregame (peace).

3. I had issues with you all game, the fact that there are contradictions in your posts doesn't constitute of saying "chain-saw". I have a basis on my attack, just saying chain-saw without substantial proof is just scummy and makes you look like you are grasping for straws.

You really don't. Your attack is based on not understanding or intentionally misunderstanding what I said. I do disagree with his play. I was describing WHAT HE WAS TRYING TO DO.

[Kill-kill]

No, advocating against hohum lynch while his vote is on hohum = scum points.
Preview edit: It looks like DTM has realised this, which I think might be why he has unvoted.

I missed this. That is enough for me.

Unvote

Vote DTM

[Kill-kill]

Kill and Hohum are MIA again and read above for Nik.

7 AP/Honors classes, board meetings for a 501c3 and varsity soccer > mafia.

In any case, since I only have a few minutes, I will address the biggest problem with your "case" against me.

The bolded part. You make no sense. It's a townie move but makes peace scummy.

The entire point of fake voting is that it is not obvious. Therefore, the only reason to make and OBVIOUSLY fake vote is to appear town. The only people who need to appear town are those who are not.

[Kill-kill]

I have to go V/LA until further notice--I have lost the one day I could really spend serious time on Mafia. I will still be reading, and can make short posts, but don't expect any huge posts from me for the time being...

(I am not planning to join any more games after the ones I am in finish, just for the record)

[Kill-kill]

Why would you ever not claim at L-1?

[Kill-kill]

Kill and Hohum are MIA again and read above for Nik.

7 AP/Honors classes, board meetings for a 501c3 and varsity soccer > mafia.

In any case, since I only have a few minutes, I will address the biggest problem with your "case" against me.

The bolded part. You make no sense. It's a townie move but makes peace scummy.

The entire point of fake voting is that it is not obvious. Therefore, the only reason to make and OBVIOUSLY fake vote is to appear town. The only people who need to appear town are those who are not.

Make a case against me that does not use this BS argument and I will reply.

[Kill-kill]

However, the NK of Kill-kill is weird.

I know, right? Definitely did not expect that.

Go town!