Open 163 (Jungle Republic)- Game Over before 835

[hasdgfas]

Hi. Catching up.

[hasdgfas]

I'd also appreciate it if anyone who is voting for Mastin on policy would unvote me, as I don't wall

[hasdgfas]

Hascow's catch-up post:

DTM - post 11: Really odd post here. Wishy-washy on the Mastin BW. Saying it's not scummy, but weird, and saying that Mastin isn't here yet. I don't know what the point is.
DTM - post 14: Way too jumpy about getting called out.

FoS

DTM - post 16: Again, way too jumpy about this.
kill - post 17: Hi, there is serious discussion going on. Why the random vote?
saberwolf - post 18: So what do you actually

think

about the argument?
DTM - post 19: WTF meta call?
Nik - post 20: Ding ding ding ding ding. Excellent post.
DTM - post 22: wishy-washiness about that is even scummier than flat-out defending him. Thank you for admitting how scummy you were.
saberwolf - post 25: Please post something that is actual game analysis. You're not even trying to get the game started.
DTM - post 30: Trying to stifle discussion. Lovely.
hohum - post 35: I really don't like this post. Where was he "demanding" anything? I seem to recall him actually asking a question
DTM - post 38: I really, really dislike this. Mafia is a hugely implicit game. It's not all about explicitly showing things, it's about showing how one thing leads to a person being scum.
saberwolf - post 54: Do you seriously not have anything to say?
hohum - post 59: Oh, really? Then you're really taking something that isn't there.
kill - post 71: I'm going to mention that I want to look at this post closer later, because something feels off about it.
Toro - post 82: I really hate people that do this and don't say something like "I'm reading up"
Admiral - post 84: Read it.
Toro - post 86: This whole post is scummy.
posts 94 and 95 are the towniest posts this whole game
DTM - post 96: Well, technically, if they're voting Mastin for being Mastin, they shouldn't be voting me, but I was clearly joking there. What exactly was scummy about that? And don't talk down to be, I've been here for two years, I know how mafia is played.


Thoughts:
DTM is really scummy for being so jumpy and wanting things to be explicit all the time.
hohum is pretty jumpy about stuff as well, especially Nik's question about why he left his vote where it was.
saberwolf is active lurking. I don't think he's actually posted anything game-related to this point.

I don't have a read on anyone else at this point.

vote: DTMaster
FoS: hohum, saberwolf

[hasdgfas]

In other words, hasdgfas, how is that scummy?

Well, first off, telling ThAdmiral that it was all random quibbling, which implies there's something you want to hide there, because it's quite clearly important to read.

Then, calling out Cain for his BW vote by saying it was still RVS. I don't understand how that's scummy at all.


Yes, DTM, cow. It's quite clearly from the quote in my sig, not to mention my avatar. If you don't want to call me cow, then please use hasd, as it doesn't look like a word on its own.

@has
I know this game is about implicit reasoning, but if you have nothing to hide then you should be able to explicitly express yourself. Asking people to do their own interpretations of your arguments (which is the point I put against Nik) is the same thing as putting the words in their mouth for you. Yes it's good to think this out on your own, but it's also bad because you assume too much from them. (My bit of mafia theory)

I'm sorry, but this is incomprehensible to me. I have no idea what you're trying to say here.

It's difficult to read sarcasm for me, then hear it. I did take what you said quite literally.

I had a smiley. There is, quite literally, no way that it doesn't read as a joke.

[hasdgfas]

I'm also quite a literal person, with or without smilies (but I try to catch the sarcasm/and joking).

sure, but everyone wants to be unvoted. Not to mention I didn't demand anything, I actually said "I'd appreciate it", which is completely different.

I go: Explain explicitly please.
He goes: my case is obvious so I don't need to.

I dislike this (no matter how obvious it is) since this mind set makes me put the argument that Nik didn't state in his own post for him. No matter how obvious it is, it isn't

literally what he said, but what you assume he said

.

Make sense? Should I try and clarify more? Nik understood me fine though.

Ok, from what I'm getting:
Nik says "You're defending Mastin"
you say "tell me explicitly where"
he says "I did"
you say "no you didn't"

is that right?
if so, Nik's ISO post 2 is quite clearly him stating exactly what was defending. Am I missing something?

Also, I'm not meaning to be rude, but is English your first language?

[hasdgfas]

Post 33, DTM. Look at it. He clearly pointed out how you're defending Mastin. If that's not explicit enough for you, nothing in mafia is.

[hasdgfas]

I actually don't think it was that much of a defense. I think it was wishy-washy about it, which, IMO, is actually worse than a defense.

I'm just trying to say that Nik quite clearly showed where he thought your defense was.

[hasdgfas]

@Has
Which I acknowledge, but I want to understand how

I bitched about the bandwagon

.

You said (paraphrasing) "I don't understand how we got to an L-3 wagon on page one. Not that I think it's scummy, just weird"
The first part seems to be complaining about it to me.

Now then, seeing as how you're completely ignoring this, I'll bold it.

You were wishy-washy about the Mastin wagon, saying it wasn't scummy, but weird. Why not take a stance on it?

[hasdgfas]

My statement shows that I wasn't uncomfortable about the wagon. If you don't believe me and want my 11 post to have that meaning then fine, take it. The only way it'll confirm this is my death which will make it just plain anti-town for me to martyr my point across if I was town (and anti-scum if I was scum).

but you said you thought it was odd, as though you could come back and use this as a point against people, not actually saying "it's not scummy" flat-out, no questions asked. You left a possibility of coming back to it as a point against people, which I dislike. I'm going to definitely keep an eye on this issue.

[hasdgfas]

To me the only readings I get is a town-tell from sabre

but, how? He hasn't done anything.

I cannot use that part as an argument against people. If I did, I would contradict myself. This would mean I would be extremely scummy for lying on my mafia theory and being very opportunistic.

Yes, I know. That's what I was saying. I was saying that giving yourself the opportunity for backpedaling is scummy.

[hasdgfas]

@Has

If I had done it then it would warrant a case on me, if I didn't then it doesn't mean anything. >>;; A bit premature to jump on me for this now.

I hate people being wishy-washy, because it makes it so easy for them to jump on either side. That's what I'm saying, not that you might change your mind at one point. Plus, it's not a huge point right now. I was just stating something that I saw.

Plus, saber might've tried to stop the "tunneling"(which I don't think it was at all, tbh. It was jumping on stuff that needed to be jumped on. There's no tunneling when others haven't posted), but he didn't comment on the things that needed to be commented on. It looked to me like he was trying to stifle discussion, which is scummy.

[hasdgfas]

I have nothing on anyone, not a shred.

I find that extremely hard to believe.
Are you still happy with your vote on me?

This game is turning into newb central. -_-;

if it's newb central for you, think about what it is for me

[hasdgfas]

As I said previously, there is nothing wrong with a L-3 wagon on the first page, but I really don't see DT overreacting in this post or defending. It's null either way, and I think anyone perpetuating the issue to be scummy (has,nik)

well, you obviously have completely missed my point regarding that post.

[hasdgfas]

hasdgfas: It seemed odd at first that you were complaining about DTM not being defensive enough, but on re-read I think I understand what you're getting at.

Could you please tell me what you're getting at here, as I'm not totally certain?

[hasdgfas]

unvote, vote saberwolf

pretty much states that his vote is OMGUS because zazier went after him. Not to mention this gem:

especially as I haven't really done anything anti-town.

Um, aren't we the ones who are supposed to be deciding that? You're supposed to explain why it's not as anti-town as we think, not just saying that you haven't done anything anti-town.

Then he jumps out at Toro, but tries to look nonchalant about it, as though it's not a big deal

Whatever, I just don't like the way ZazieR's throwing dirt around, and is def trying to twist things into an unpleasant spotlight.

The "whatever" really turns me off. Trying to look nonchalant when it's clear that you care. And why/how do you see connections between Toro and zazier? Why does hating your blatant OMGUS vote mean that there's a connection?

[hasdgfas]

@Scott/Hohum/Toro
Do you three see Sabre's 187, 188, and 189 as OMGUS reasons and not actual, legit reasons that would make Zazier scummy. Can you debunk his argument to show how this is done?

I definitely see them as blatant OMGUS.
I don't understand the last sentence. Why do we have to debunk his argument? Why not you, or zazier, who he's having that little spat with?

[hasdgfas]

Anyone finding it fishy how Zaz, Cain, and lumi are the only ones

not

on that list?

I wasn't on the list either, btw.

And it's a really weird list. I honestly don't understand the point of it.

[hasdgfas]

hey saber, while I appreciate you responding to zazier, could you please not answer inside the quote?

I have loads of trouble figuring out what someone's saying if they do that.

[hasdgfas]

So, I appreciate you cooling down a bit here saber. I'm not sure whether or not it makes me feel better about you though, I have to do some thinking about that. Anyway, a couple questions for you:

Nikanor and Saberwolf are most likely not in the same faction.

I thought you were saying you're town. In that case, shouldn't there be no chance of you two being in the same anti-town faction?

Could you also go a little more in-depth about each of your "X likes/dislikes Y"? I'm not sure I understand why each of them are there.

I also would love some citations in your last sentence about me, as in where I said you did a good thing, and where I discredited it.

[hasdgfas]

As for question two, I am pretty sure I posted reasons for most, if not all of them in my PbPA. Most of them tend to just be players who buddy up with other players or defend them for likes, and for those under dislikes its usually those who are either voting for each other, attacking each other in the posts, or something else along those lines. For example, DTMaster likes Saberwolf to me, because he has been defending me loyally this whole time and been calling me pro-town. Nikanor doesn't like DTMaster because of bitchiness and OMGUSness in Nikanors opinion, plus suppossed attempt of Mastin/Cow BW derailment. Hope the rest are explained above or are easy enough to determine. If not, just ask me again and I'll go through them all.

I was mostly interested in the "likes zazier" ones, as I'm not sure where you got some of them from(especially me, tbh).

@Has

If I had done it then it would warrant a case on me, if I didn't then it doesn't mean anything. >>;; A bit premature to jump on me for this now.

I hate people being wishy-washy, because it makes it so easy for them to jump on either side. That's what I'm saying, not that you might change your mind at one point. Plus, it's not a huge point right now. I was just stating something that I saw.

Plus, saber might've tried to stop the "tunneling"(which I don't think it was at all, tbh. It was jumping on stuff that needed to be jumped on. There's no tunneling when others haven't posted),

but he didn't comment on the things that needed to be commented on. It looked to me like he was trying to stifle discussion, which is scummy.

This is the pro-saber part. Admitting that I was still doing something pro-town. Whether you wanna call it tunnel-stopping, or jumping on things that need to be jumped on, it's still saying I did the right thing

This part is where you decredit me.

Ahhhhh, I see. You completely misunderstood the part in bold. That was not saying that you did a good thing. I didn't actually think there was any tunneling going on at all, due to the fact that not everyone had posted. I thought the discussion that was going on was simply people jumping on things that needed to be jumped on, and you were trying to stifle that discussion, which I found scummy. I never actually called it a good thing that you did that.

[hasdgfas]

The timing of that post suggests you are actively lurking. Why is that?

I'd just like to point out that this isn't active lurking. This is simply lurking. Active lurking is posting but not posting any game content. He's just lurking, as in, not posting for long periods of time, but then posting when called out.

[hasdgfas]

@Kill-kill
can you elaborate on how Has' recent activities support his township?

remind me to say something about this after kill responds

[hasdgfas]

I don't mind if you want to respond now actually. But ok I'll remind you if you then.

I don't want to influence his answer by responding now.

[hasdgfas]

@Cow
Want to respond now?

Sure.
I really dislike people asking "why is so-and-so town?", because the more people know why you think someone's town, the better chance you've signed their death warrant and/or allowed for WIFOM later when they're still alive, and you start going "Is he/she actually town?"

[hasdgfas]

zazier, could you possibly summarize your spam? Because it's seriously not fun to read and I have no idea what you're saying

[hasdgfas]

Ok..thanks for that. I actually just skimmed that part and didn't catch that Fuzzy had an untypical rule for anti-town members.

ftr, that's not untypical at all.

also, peace, why just post those 5 names and not everyone? I'm not sure whether that's just the people you wanted to comment on or it's the 5 people you think are scum

[hasdgfas]

I don't like how SW became very very quiet since the wagon on him crumbled. Almost as if he does not want to say anything harmful again. He picked up his prod claiming internet failures, promised to post Monday and has not.

QFT

[hasdgfas]

unvote, vote: hohum

[hasdgfas]

I really don't think hohum's lurking is much of a scumtell.
He seems to be dead in another game I'm in with him as well.
I would prefer a forced replacing of hohum than a lynch, if possible, since I believe him to not be scummy enough for a lynch.

he is flat-out active lurking. He posted a smiley for reasons either to avoid a forced replacement or avoid a prod. He has said nothing of value for over a week when he's had plenty of chances to and is posting in other games. This is straight-up scummy.

[hasdgfas]

he is flat-out active lurking. He posted a smiley for reasons either to avoid a forced replacement or avoid a prod. He has said nothing of value for over a week when he's had plenty of chances to and is posting in other games. This is straight-up scummy.

I didn't realise he was posting in other games. In another game I was in with him, he just got mislynched today for doing almost the same as he's done here. Can you provide game names (since our mod doesn't allow links, although honestly I don't see the problem when we're just using the links to cite easily verifiable fact)?

First off, talking about ongoing games is the same thing as giving links to them. You just don't discuss them. Ever. That's one of the main rules of this entire site.

Second, even if not for that, I couldn't as search is broken, but I have seen him posting elsewhere, and the fact that he came in and posted something that's actually nothing ticked me off so incredibly much that I found it to be the scummiest thing to this point in the game.

now that he's back and actually posting, however,

unvote

re: post 475, what horrible logic. Sometimes lurkers are scum, especially when they come in and post just to avoid a prod/replacement, because that shows they don't care about anything except not dying.

[hasdgfas]

It isn't horrible logic at all. Others can wagon me for lynching. That's one thing. You took it one step further by inventing fathom posts that I am NOT making.

It's not good enough for yoy to call me on the shit I actually did. You need to manufacture evidence to support your case, because you've literally got nothing.

you're posting now, and I unvoted.
I can't find evidence on you posting elsewhere, but you said "I'm modding, that takes precedence" which is blatantly posting in other games. If you were going to have trouble being in games, replace out or let us know, don't just stop posting, because it looks bad, especially if you're modding a game, because that will lead to assumptions that you're posting in other games instead of here.

[hasdgfas]

First off, talking about ongoing games is the same thing as giving links to them. You just don't discuss them. Ever. That's one of the main rules of this entire site.

I was providing only hard facts that could be discerned by reading the thread. Is that still not allowed? I mean, how else does one provide evidence for claims like, 'He has been posting elsewhere, therefore he's lurking.' I agree with not actually discussing ongoing games, but if the link is used only as a citation, it should be okay to use, in my opinion.

if search were working it would be easy, however it's disabled right now.

but one of the explicit site and mod rules is "don't link to/discuss ongoing games". You can say stuff like "posting elsewhere, therefore lurking" and tell others to go look for themselves, but you can't do anything that could influence another specific game by saying it. Linking to it can influence it, not to mention that that specific game is influencing another ongoing game as well.


@peacesells: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 343#789343

you can discuss finished games, but most definitely not ongoing ones,

especially

when it's in the mod's specific rules for the game.

[hasdgfas]

wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong.

an ongoing game is not a previous game.

see the rule just below.

[hasdgfas]

This whole discussion about when it is and isn't acceptable to reference games is a giant distraction. Stop it. Now.

I don't care. I'd much rather be distracting and end up losing this game than let everyone go through the game not understanding site rules, which could get you modkilled and/or banned from the whole site for breaking.

[hasdgfas]

I think it is pretty thin to consider saying someone is posting in another game as discussing THAT game. I think you are arguing semantics for a dubious reason.

you just can't specifically reference it. Saying "they're posting in another game" is fine, you can't say "they're posting in Game X" because it affects that game, even if you don't think so.

Plus, please explain what is dubious and how, because that's incredibly unspecific and looks like just trying to get people on your side against me.

[hasdgfas]

@zazier:

while I appreciate that you're posting, I

really

dislike the spam. I don't care if it's SOP for you, it's distracting and borderline scummy. Please try to rein it in. Thanks.

[hasdgfas]

@Has

Can you elaborate on how Zazie's style is scummy? Yes I dislike the spam style, but I see it as a difference in mafia game play (ie Zazie's spam vs Mastin's wall) and not evidence of scum play.

It's part of his meta to do this (which I'm waiting for the link to the reasoning behind it Zazie).

It's the same thing as saying Mastin's walls are scummy, or Battle Mage's similar posting style is scummy. He does do it similarly to Zazie, but in a more condensed form.

it's scummy because it's distracting. I spend all my time trying to figure out which of zazier's posts are directed at who instead of actually looking at what he's saying. It's scummy because it's noise. I feel like it's just zazier trying to throw out as much info as possible so that anything that is scummy is just ignored due to the massive number of words. For this same reason, Mastin's walls are, at the least, anti-town, and at most, scummy. Same with BM, I can't read him due to his posting style, and I'm always uncomfortable with that.

[hasdgfas]

I once had an argument that I was scummy for posting too much and being hyperactive during summer. Its my completed newbie game on my wiki, see Almaster. Style is meaningless, content is where it's at.

This is wrong. If you throw all those posts at someone and expect them to understand everything that's said, you're extremely naive. It's a scum-favoring posting style(just like Mastin's walls), due to info overload. There's so much there, and nearly always something to respond to, that it makes it easy to overlook slight scumslips due to the massive amount of words there. There's a thread in MD from a couple weeks ago about this.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 22&start=0
somewhere in there, someone posts why the style is scummy, and I'm going to re-look through the thread to try to find it, because it's what I'm trying to say, but I can't say it the way I want to.

[hasdgfas]

found it:

Walls of text(or spamfests) are an obfuscation tactic. I'm not sure if it's conscious logic, but it goes something like this: if a player determines that they can't avoid making scum tells, the strategy then becomes to make them as hard to find as possible. That means posting more stuff. Of course, posting more also has to happen in town roles, otherwise a simple word count becomes a tell. In addition to this strategy being problematic to games, it's also unfortunate as a strategy -- someone embracing this has decided to stop improving their play. The better idea is to learn what mistakes one makes as scum and work to avoid doing them in the future. Furthermore, it promotes an anti-town meta, in which players can't be read because they're either lurking (unable to keep up with the walls) or posting too much crap to be analyzed.

[hasdgfas]

would like to say for the record i was the one who initially thought ZazieR's wall splices were scummy.

This reeks of "look guys I was first and may have done something that is pro-town!"

close, I just felt that when I attacked ZazieR for it, everyone was against me. Now that the attack on ZazieR is kosher all of a sudden, I'd just like to remind people who thought of it first, just to see if the attack suddenly stops or actually sticks.

I seem to remember you attacking him for post content as opposed to posting style, which is incredibly different.

[hasdgfas]

Now that the attack on ZazieR is kosher all of a sudden, I'd just like to remind people who thought of it first, just to see if the attack suddenly stops or actually sticks.

Don't worry, it won't stick, because it is incorrect.
I define a scummy post as one that reflects on the poster's anti-town alignment. Since Zazie's post style is consistent no matter his role, it is not indicative of his role, and is not a scumtell.
However, if someone such as Cow started taking up whole pages with his post-spam, it would be a major scum-tell, as it is beneficial for scumCow to do so, and it is not the typical behaviour of townCow.
What I'm trying to say is that while Zazie's posting style is arguably scummy, it is definitely NOT a scumtell, as it is consistent with both his town and scum play.
So there is no need to worry about getting to look pro-town by being the first to attack Zazie, saber. I agree with Scott's 537.

it, however, is extremely

detrimental to the town

, which is really what this is about. Note how this didn't start as a huge attack on zazier, more a "if you keep doing this after I say it's distracting, I will call you out on it being scummy"

[hasdgfas]

This whole discussion about Zazie's post style doesn't affect his alignment in this game. Zazie does that in all his games. Whether the style itself may be inherently more useful to a scum-player that has no relevance to his alignment now. Any attempt at using his poststyle as a scum-tell is scummy in itself. Since he clearly does it all the time trying to persuade him to change his style is a waste of our time so let's get our focus back on the game.

Missing the point. I have told zazier to stop because he's being distracting. If he now keeps posting like this, it

will

be scummy.

[hasdgfas]

found it:

Walls of text(or spamfests) are an obfuscation tactic. I'm not sure if it's conscious logic, but it goes something like this: if a player determines that they can't avoid making scum tells, the strategy then becomes to make them as hard to find as possible. That means posting more stuff. Of course, posting more also has to happen in town roles, otherwise a simple word count becomes a tell. In addition to this strategy being problematic to games, it's also unfortunate as a strategy -- someone embracing this has decided to stop improving their play. The better idea is to learn what mistakes one makes as scum and work to avoid doing them in the future. Furthermore, it promotes an anti-town meta, in which players can't be read because they're either lurking (unable to keep up with the walls) or posting too much crap to be analyzed.

Even if this were true, which is debatable*, it doesn't have any bearing on a persons alignment within any given game.

* for example: more posting equals more of a chance for someone to slip as scum. If someone knows they are going to slip then posting a lot would make it worse for them, not better.

Did you even read the explanation, or any of the thread I linked? It goes over why posting a lot makes it easy for their scummy actions to be ignored. Because of the massive amount of info that they produce, their scummy actions will be passed over to get to other things that can be commented on.

it, however, is extremely

detrimental to the town

, which is really what this is about.

Can you elaborate on this.

I already explained this. It throws so much information at the town that there's no way of telling what's useful and what's noise.

ThAdmiral, I don't mean to be rude, but how much of this game have you read? From your posts, I'm getting the feeling that it's not that much.

[hasdgfas]

simply eh?

Just hope that Hohum turns up scum..otherwise..........

what the heck are you talking about? You're attacking saberwolf for correcting you? How incredibly ridiculous.

FoS

[hasdgfas]

simply eh?

Just hope that Hohum turns up scum..otherwise..........

what the heck are you talking about? You're attacking saberwolf for correcting you? How incredibly ridiculous.

FoS

Are you and Saber scum partners?

Why would a town player be so exasperated by one little comment?

Why would you be defending him on day 1?

that is the most ridiculous......
really?
RE: Bolded: Isn't that what town should be looking for? Little comments that show alignment. Your reactions to what was simply pointing out that you hadn't voted is extremely out of proportion and looks like

you

trying to pull accusations out of thin air.

Post 597 is also ridiculous, because you're not even refuting his point, you're just antagonizing him.

[hasdgfas]

RE: Bolded: Isn't that what town should be looking for? Little comments that show alignment.

Wasn't I doing the same? Looking at a "Little comment" to see alignment?

Do you dictate which comments are little enough?

Are you really that exasperated that I would have the nerve to try and do something that you just said is what we are supposed to be doing?

Really....

so telling you that you screwed up voting now tells alignment?

[hasdgfas]

@Sabre
I got 3/6 people who

just now responded to Zazier's questions

after my accusation. "narrow eyes at you 6"

maybe you need to clarify, as I don't have a clue what you're talking about.

I will be gone for the next few days

fishing.

Probably won't post til Monday.

A

ha

! Gotcha now. Everyone knows rolefishing is scummy!
Just kidding, have fun. Catch lots.

[hasdgfas]

So today you would still rather lynch someone more active than hohum?

If possible, I'd like for hohum to show up and start playing the game. If that's not possible, I'd like for a replacement. If that isn't possible, then I might go for a hohum deadline lynch if we can't find anyone better to lynch.

so are you saying that hohum's scummy behavior of day 1 should be ignored because he's lurking? Because he's done plenty of stuff that I'd lynch active players for, and letting him be replaced is basically ignoring all of that.

[hasdgfas]

Well..I really hate the way they handle night phases here. I don't see any reason why we should not be able to continue to discuss the game during that phase.

besides the fact that, you know, flavor-wise, everyone's sleeping?

[hasdgfas]

So today you would still rather lynch someone more active than hohum?

If possible, I'd like for hohum to show up and start playing the game. If that's not possible, I'd like for a replacement. If that isn't possible, then I might go for a hohum deadline lynch if we can't find anyone better to lynch.

so are you saying that hohum's scummy behavior of day 1 should be ignored because he's lurking? Because he's done plenty of stuff that I'd lynch active players for, and letting him be replaced is basically ignoring all of that.

No, I just don't believe in Lynch all Lurkers policy.
If hohum gets replaced, great. If hohum starts actively participating, that's even better. hohum's lying and whatnot aren't going to disappear. Unless you believe that any and all replacements earn themselves a free halo that clears themselves of all guilt, I don't see how waiting for a replacement is a bad idea.
On the other hand, if we lynch him today for lurking without even trying to get a replacement, we'll have very little information regarding inter-player reactions, reagardless of alignment.
What I'm trying to say in that post is that we need either hohum ITT, or a hohum replacement.

@Mod:Prod hohum, please?

neither do I, but Lynch all Lurkers is lynching them for lurking, while I want to lynch him for the other stuff, with lurking the final straw.

Well..I really hate the way they handle night phases here. I don't see any reason why we should not be able to continue to discuss the game during that phase.

This could be a ploy, but it could also basically confirm him as town. I doubt he would be saying this if he was in any of the scum groups and was actually able to speak at night.

this is major WIFOM. I expected better from you.

[hasdgfas]

guys, we either need to lynch hohum or figure out what else we're doing today.

[hasdgfas]

guys, we either need to lynch hohum or figure out what else we're doing today.

Are you in support of that lynch? You haven't said much and aren't voting.

Really? I thought I was pretty clear yesterday about this.

[hasdgfas]

Actually I did a quick ISO skim on has... you didn't vote for hohum today. Even in the latest vote count you didn't. If you are so clear on a hohum lynch, why didn't you vote for him at all today?

FoS: Has

because by the time I really checked the game, the vote count was in such a dangerous position that voting could easily have led to a self-hammer or a quicklynch

[hasdgfas]

However, the NK of Kill-kill is weird. Honestly, not many people paid attention to him especially D2 where he barely participated. The only person who really addressed him was DT. Kill-kill wasn't really adding much to the town so it's possible that DT is the other wolf attempting to shut up KK.

First off, keep in mind that there are two scum factions, and after the wolves lost one member, they really want to get rid of the mafia.

Cow's behavior D2 was confusing. He talked about lynching hohum for all the other stuff and not LaL. Yet he never actually placed a vote on hohum. I don't buy the dangerous vote-count position either. If he actually thought hohum was scummy, he would have placed the vote on him.

I'm an overcautious player. I don't do things that I probably should do, because I think of way too many possible consequences.


One interesting thing in that post, Scott, why are you more interested in the wolves than the mafia? I don't like what appears to be selective scumhunting.

[hasdgfas]

One interesting thing in that post, Scott, why are you more interested in the wolves than the mafia? I don't like what appears to be selective scumhunting.

Mainly because we have a confirmed werewolf dead, so there is more information to be drawn upon from that. Interactions with hohum are telling since we know he is a werewolf. We have no dead mafia so there is less to go on with them. Of less importance, I would rather kill off the last wolf than mafia as it gives the us a better chance since there would be no NK and then we can concentrate on lynching mafia.

the only problem with that is that if we do kill off the last wolf, we have to lynch the mafia one after the other, or we lose. Sure, lynching a wolf would be nice, but that hurts the town more than leaving them alive and lynching a mafia member.

[hasdgfas]

True but why does the Wolf want to help us win again?

The wolf will help us because if mafia control half the town, the only ones getting lynched would be townies or the wolf. As soon as mafia gain control over a majority of the town, they win by quicklynching. So really, it should be in the wolf's best interest to help us out in that situation.

they win as soon as they get half the town, according to the role PMs. I still don't see why the wolf would want to help us out now, when they can stay hidden and have a better chance of winning there, because the wolf would then be known to the mafia, who can get rid of him at their leisure.

[hasdgfas]

Bait wins. A townie wouldn't push me on this.

Vote: Toro.

what makes you say that?

[hasdgfas]

Trust me, I have no intentions of self-voting. I'm just saying (though I may've said it otherwise) that if I'm lynched and come out town, go after Nikanor and ThAdmiral, as I'm sure they're at least two members of the mafia.

You seem awfully worried for being at L-3.

that was my thought too.

And Toro, why are you so sure that two people who disagree with you are mafia? Is there any specific reason? Because it just looks like OMGUS to me.

[hasdgfas]

I answered a specific question that was asked of me. No, I was not kidding.

I answered they way I did because you were attempting to lead others to believe I was skirting a question, and I was not.


And to make sure I answer Shotty's question, I still have a "feeling" as lame as that is that Scott is scummy. Still basing this on his "helpful" play on day 1.

really? Isn't it convenient that you do this just after he votes you.

I also have no idea why you're voting for nik. It seems like it's just because he wanted you to answer a question you didn't want to.

[hasdgfas]

Can we focus? I want opinions on Toro and an explanation of why you think either Nik or peace is more scummy then him at this point in time. What do you think of Toro Cow?

I think he's a VI.

[hasdgfas]

Can we focus? I want opinions on Toro and an explanation of why you think either Nik or peace is more scummy then him at this point in time. What do you think of Toro Cow?

I think he's a VI.

Can you elaborate on this.
I know what a vi is but I feel that they are usually the victims of day 1 or 2 lynches, rather than day 3 or later lynches.

I dunno, it just seems like he has no idea what's going on. I have usually seen them as victims of early lynches, but I don't consider that a prereq to someone being lynched, because you can be a VI without being lynched, whether it's playstyle or just actions you've taken.

[hasdgfas]

L-1 Folks. Though I still get odd vibes from the conflicting fact that he forgot Mafia couldn't kill, but also knew it at the start of the game. :<

Woah woah, I must've missed this. Could you elaborate please?

[hasdgfas]

I've just completed a read through on Toro and noticed some subtle buddying going on. What is everyone's general feeling on buddying? Is it a scum tell or a null tell?

I find it depends on the buddying. I usually get feels when people buddy up based on how they do it, but I don't think I've seen anything with Toro.

[hasdgfas]

Why is the Cow lurking through this game?

I lost a feel for this game during the hohum mess yesterday and am trying to get it back.

[hasdgfas]

Cow who do you feel is scummy? You haven't placed a vote since you unvoted hohum D1 (as far as I remember).

I haven't? well how about that, I could've sworn I'd voted. Let's rectify that situation, shall we.

vote: peacesells

A lot of this is gut, but I've had a bad feeling from pretty much the very beginning, based on the way the game has gone. He's seemed a bit too jumpy.

[hasdgfas]

A lot of this is gut, but I've had a bad feeling from pretty much the very beginning, based on the way the game has gone. He's seemed a bit too jumpy.

explain jumpy?

what could jumpy possibly mean, peace? It's not that difficult.

Cow who do you feel is scummy? You haven't placed a vote since you unvoted hohum D1 (as far as I remember).

I haven't? well how about that, I could've sworn I'd voted. Let's rectify that situation, shall we.

vote: peacesells

A lot of this is gut, but I've had a bad feeling from pretty much the very beginning, based on the way the game has gone. He's seemed a bit too jumpy.

How can you vote based on "gut" considering the enormous amount of evidence presented against Toro, what do you think of the posts that have been made about him? Do you still think he's just a VI, I can't really see how that remains true.

That's also gut. Maybe my gut is just completely off, but something feels wrong in this lynch. It's like it's too easy, which I don't like at all with 4 scum still out there.

[hasdgfas]

Cow. How about pointing it out. You are evading.

that's a completely different question than you just asked. I can't be evading a question you didn't ask.

However, if you want just one example, how about jumping on saber for correcting your vote that didn't count, and then jumping on me when I said you were being ridiculous.

[hasdgfas]

A lot of this is gut, but I've had a bad feeling from pretty much the very beginning, based on the way the game has gone. He's seemed a bit too jumpy.

explain jumpy?

what could jumpy possibly mean, peace? It's not that difficult.

Cow who do you feel is scummy? You haven't placed a vote since you unvoted hohum D1 (as far as I remember).

I haven't? well how about that, I could've sworn I'd voted. Let's rectify that situation, shall we.

vote: peacesells

A lot of this is gut, but I've had a bad feeling from pretty much the very beginning, based on the way the game has gone. He's seemed a bit too jumpy.

How can you vote based on "gut" considering the enormous amount of evidence presented against Toro, what do you think of the posts that have been made about him? Do you still think he's just a VI, I can't really see how that remains true.

That's also gut. Maybe my gut is just completely off, but something feels wrong in this lynch. It's like it's too easy, which I don't like at all with 4 scum still out there.

This lynch is far too DIFFICULT for Toro not to be scum, look at how long we've been sitting at L-1 and the votes that have been shifted around.

That's not really what I mean. What I'm talking about is how much suspicion got thrown on him immediately upon day starting. Just felt wrong to me. I understand we've been stuck here at L-1 for a while, but I feel that's a null-tell.

[hasdgfas]

A lot of this is gut, but I've had a bad feeling from pretty much the very beginning, based on the way the game has gone. He's seemed a bit too jumpy.

explain jumpy?

what could jumpy possibly mean, peace? It's not that difficult.

Cow who do you feel is scummy? You haven't placed a vote since you unvoted hohum D1 (as far as I remember).

I haven't? well how about that, I could've sworn I'd voted. Let's rectify that situation, shall we.

vote: peacesells

A lot of this is gut, but I've had a bad feeling from pretty much the very beginning, based on the way the game has gone. He's seemed a bit too jumpy.

How can you vote based on "gut" considering the enormous amount of evidence presented against Toro, what do you think of the posts that have been made about him? Do you still think he's just a VI, I can't really see how that remains true.

That's also gut. Maybe my gut is just completely off, but something feels wrong in this lynch. It's like it's too easy, which I don't like at all with 4 scum still out there.

This lynch is far too DIFFICULT for Toro not to be scum, look at how long we've been sitting at L-1 and the votes that have been shifted around.

That's not really what I mean. What I'm talking about is how much suspicion got thrown on him immediately upon day starting. Just felt wrong to me. I understand we've been stuck here at L-1 for a while, but I feel that's a null-tell.

Uhh what? I'm pretty sure we started the day attacking Scott, nice to know you're paying attention though.

huh, how'd that happen? I had another sentence there in the middle of the second sentence. Here's how it was supposed to read(and how I was sure it was actually written):

What I'm talking about is how much suspicion got thrown at him all at once. It's probably even weirder because it wasn't immediately upon day starting.

EDIT: and now I see peace is, by his own admission, werewolf-hunting, which is blatant selective scumhunting. Lynch lynch lynch lynch lynch lynch lynch lynch lynch.

[hasdgfas]

EDIT: and now I see peace is, by his own admission, werewolf-hunting, which is blatant selective scumhunting. Lynch lynch lynch lynch lynch lynch lynch lynch lynch.

I was casing Nik for scum tells. To me, both werewolf and mafia are scum. If he jumps out at me as werewolf during my re-read are you expecting me to ignore it?

We have 2 weeks to the deadline. There is no reason not to explore all possibilites.

Also...Cow..purposely not looking for a Werewolf would also be considered selective scumhunting. Is this what you are guilty of?

nope. I'm looking for scum. I'd prefer to lynch mafia, but I want to lynch someone who is not of the town.

[hasdgfas]

I wasn't sure about Hohum, I'm much more confident in this lynch and I don't know if we're getting drawn off-track here or not.

Shotty..odds are, the Toro lynch is going to happen at some point. I base this on the pretty uninterested play on many here. Someone is gonna say "ah f* it" and hammer.

If you believe Toro is scum...why not spend this time hunting his partners as well?

I'm going to let him answer, but I have something to say about this too.

[hasdgfas]

I wasn't sure about Hohum, I'm much more confident in this lynch and I don't know if we're getting drawn off-track here or not.

Shotty..odds are, the Toro lynch is going to happen at some point. I base this on the pretty uninterested play on many here. Someone is gonna say "ah f* it" and hammer.

If you believe Toro is scum...why not spend this time hunting his partners as well?

I prefer to take things one step at a time, when you try to post some sweeping lynch plan you can lose a perfectly good lynch through some flaw in the other and on the whole it distracts from the point at hand, there'll be plenty of time for hunting tomorrow once we have Toro's alignment.

This is pretty much exactly what I was going to say about this. If you try finding partners before you know the alignment of the first, it doesn't work

[hasdgfas]

So I did some reading of Toro during Night, looking at weird interactions, and what really jumped out at me was when Toro said

Trust me, I have no intentions of self-voting. I'm just saying (though I may've said it otherwise) that if I'm lynched and come out town, go after Nikanor and ThAdmiral, as I'm sure they're at least two members of the mafia.

Now, he didn't come up town, but the last little bit there of "I'm sure" threw up flags of "bussing/distancing" for me.

[hasdgfas]

Ok, looking at Toro again, I really hate his interactions with Nik. They just feel incredibly wrong and fake, at least from the Toro end.

So with that,

vote: Nikanor

[hasdgfas]

I've been meaning to do some ISO reads. Excuse the non posting but yes:

1. I've been posting in other games but they haven't required rereads from the night before.

2. I also just finished midterm week.

Vote: DTMaster

for the lack of posting. I want some answers DTM, now scum list please.

I don't know what to think about this self-vote.

[hasdgfas]

Also note that hasdfgas has not voted twice and the one time he did have a vote on at the end of the day it was on a townie. Helpful!

Day 1 I quite literally thought I was voting, and was shocked when day ended and I wasn't.

Day 2 was pretty much "who will vote for hohum?" and I explained why I didn't at the time.

Day 3 I did say why I was voting peacesells over Toro.

[hasdgfas]

Day 3 I did say why I was voting peacesells over Toro.

vote: peacesells

A lot of this is gut, but I've had a bad feeling from pretty much the very beginning, based on the way the game has gone. He's seemed a bit too jumpy.

Do you mean that? And actually, you never did say why you were voting peacesells over Toro. You explained why you were voting peacesells (I'm not trying to encapsulate your entire reasoning for voting peacesells within your quote here, because peacesells did do scummy things after your vote that you commented on), but the farthest you went to address the points against Toro was, 'I think he's VI.' You never said why you were voting peacesells over Toro, only why you were voting peacesells. That is scummy. You were pushing a bandwagon on a confirmed townie while avoiding comment on the opposing wagon, which is now confirmed scum.
Cow's desperation to get peacesells in the noose as opposed to Toro reaches a peak when he says this:

EDIT: and now I see peace is, by his own admission, werewolf-hunting, which is blatant selective scumhunting. Lynch lynch lynch lynch lynch lynch lynch lynch lynch.

That is a gross overreaction. Other people have scumhunted selectively on different occassions, and yet only this time does Cow react like this. Just looking at the vote count, I see that Toro was at L-1 at that time. I don't think this is a coincidence. It looks more like Cow is trying to get the non-mafia wagon going before Toro is lynched.

I seem to recall calling other people out for selective scumhunting. Maybe I didn't react as strongly, but when it's added to my suspicion of peacesells, I just got way into the heat of the moment.

[hasdgfas]

Didn't realize I wasn't voting.

I have a strange and powerful feeling that scott is scum but don't really have anything to back it up other than the voting patterns.

Other than that I tend to agree that hasdfgas basically must be scum. Wish washiness and semi-lurking all game added to the bad voting history.

Vote: hasdfgas

mhm, been an awful game for me.

Well, I got nothing better to do, let's see how this goes.

I'm the wolf. If you lynch me, town will have to lynch right twice to win. I'd rather see the town win than lose to the mafia.

So there.

[hasdgfas]

I'm the wolf. If you lynch me, town will have to lynch right twice to win. I'd rather see the town win than lose to the mafia.

Not true.
With six people alive, we can lynch you today to put ourselves in lylo tomorrow with two mafia. After that, we have an expendable mislynch, thanks to the lack of nightkill.
If we mislynch today, we have to rely on your aim tonight to save us, which really doesn't make me feel too great considering I, a townie, am your largest suspect. Basically, from my point of view, we're already in lylo, since you'll kill me tonight anyway and give the mafia a majority. So really, we're not any worse off for lynching you.
That's not even taking into account the possibility of mafia fakeclaiming.

lynch me, 5 alive, 2 scum. you can't lynch wrong or mafia win. lynch right and you'll have a mislynch available, but you need to be right first.
and I never said I'd kill you. You're my favored lynch, but not necessarily my favored kill.

[hasdgfas]

@Cow: Can we trust you to make town-directed kills? You've lost now, anyway. The least you can do is help us win.

See, here's the thing. The mafia make up 1/3 of the current town. If I go by town-directed kills, the mafia have a good chance of being a big influence in that. However, if there's someone that seems to be trusted near-unanimously by the town, I won't kill them. But "town-directed" is a bit of a misnomer, from what I've found, as scum have significant influence on the kill in that case.

[hasdgfas]

See, here's the thing. The mafia make up 1/3 of the current town. If I go by town-directed kills, the mafia have a good chance of being a big influence in that. However, if there's someone that seems to be trusted near-unanimously by the town, I won't kill them. But "town-directed" is a bit of a misnomer, from what I've found, as scum have significant influence on the kill in that case.

That's also true. We could put it to a vote, or get everyone to nominate their top two picks for a kill, but I suppose that wouldn't help much, either. What do you think would be the best, Cow? The seer should weigh in on this as well, seeing as how he can act as confirmed townie now.

I think everyone nominating their top 2 picks for a kill would help, because that still gives me some discretion while making sure that the town gets some input.

[hasdgfas]

I'm still here.

Lynch dtm, have has kill nik, lynch has tomorrow?
Sounds like a plan to me.

vote: dtm

*cough cough* I'm still choosing the kill *cough cough*

[hasdgfas]

vote: DTM

[hasdgfas]

Well, one of {ThAdmiral, Shotty} is the remaining mafia and one is a townie. Unless Scott is lying and someone else wants to claim seer.

[hasdgfas]

I'm willing to "happily ever after" if the townies want to guarantee they won't lose to the mafia

[hasdgfas]

Let me reread Nik when I'm off my iPod to look for interactions

[hasdgfas]

Nobody at the moment, I would like to see your case on Shotty and hear from Cow first.

Honestly, first read-through, nothing at all jumps out at me from Nik. Maybe re-reading Toro will get me something....

[hasdgfas]

Cow any last ideas before you die?

Lynch one of {Shotty, Admiral}, have me kill the other if it's wrong, mutual win?

[hasdgfas]

Right... and let you walk away with the win? You're funny. Anything else to say before I hammer you?

Thank you for reading what I'm saying. I'm saying that if we lynch right, I won't make a NK, then we just keep No-lynching/no-killing, as we're not required to do either. If we don't lynch right, I kill the remaining mafia, and do what basically turns into This, but is more a mutual win, as it's 2/3 factions.

[hasdgfas]

I'll yell at him tomorrow.

I yelled at him already.

[hasdgfas]

Hurray!

Finally I don't have to just watch and not talk and wish I wasn't lynched so early...

It's ok though, I finally learned how to not get lynched day 1

GG, and yay for town win.

you weren't great at the "not talk" thing, by the way, which was rather annoying to those of us in the game. Try to refrain from posting in-game once you're dead, because that's a huge no-no and can definitely get people who don't want to play with you again. If it's something like answering a question in-game that someone else asked, especially don't do that, as it's game-related and can even lead to your team getting punished, even if you don't think it had any effect on the game, it still can. And fixing the vote count too, may have been intended as trying to help, but you're dead, so it's more annoying than anything, and you still have the option of PM'ing the mod to fix it instead of posting yourself.


Now onto actual game-related things, this was definitely not one of my finer performances, as I think ThAdmiral can attest to, as I've been in a couple other games with him where I've played much, much better. I just sorta lost interest during the whole hohum debacle, where we spent so much time talking about stuff instead of just lynching him. That's my main problem with the current site meta, is there's just way too much talking when we've made a decision. Sure, discussion is good for the town, but too much discussion is awful for the town. Anyway, I think that's why I'm taking a break from playing, because I just can't stay interested in games when there's times that's just talking for the sake of talking.

But yeah, I basically played like a vig during this game, as I got literally no help from hohum(big surprise there, eh?) and that was going to make it extremely difficult to win. Was trying my best to pull out a "happily ever after"(which is quite possible, btw, and wouldn't have been hard. Lynch Admiral, then no-kill, no-lynch until the mod calls it a tie ), but that was a long shot. Good work town, and again, I apologize for not really playing well.

[hasdgfas]

Can someone post the QTs for the scum groups?

hohum didn't post in ours, it's not worth it at all.

[hasdgfas]

@ has: definitely not one of your best games, although I didn't think you were outright bad. It wasn't one of my best games either, though, now that we're on the subject.

I do appreciate that, as I felt I was awful. I never really got a read on you, tbh. Not sure what that means.

It is intriguing to me, however, that werewolves/sk/other non-town killing roles so often will turn themselves in when it looks like their time is up and agree to follow the towns wishes rather than trying to protest their innocence/dying without helping town. I know I've done it. It seems given the choice we would always rather help town than scum, which I guess indicates we are all good guys at heart!

Basically what Shotty said. That and as long as we're alive, there's a chance to win, even if outted. Just look at US Election mafia in Theme Park. All the factions claimed at the end as it was their best chance to win

[hasdgfas]

The thing that tipped me off was: Cow said he was worried that Hohum would self hammer. I don't under stand how anyone would know this. :S

that has nothing to do with anything, tbh. I would have said that no matter what in that situation.