Mini 836: Commie Mafia (Game Over)

[Talitha]

Argh, I just can't get used to this alt/hydra thing!
(Above post was me)

Mod's Note: This post is non-cannon and therefore not part of the game

[Talitha]

Yeah, I struggle to see how using dice is any more of a cop out than a "Hi everybody" or a "Die, die, die" accompaniment to an early day 1 vote. But I'm happy to be enlightened.

Mod's Note: This post is non-cannon and therefore not part of the game

[Talitha]

I'm just wondering why you were paying such close attention to the player list, Hoopla. Do you always do that?

Mod's Note: This post is non-cannon and therefore not part of the game

[Talitha]

vote: Hoopla

Die, die, etc.

[Talitha]

1.) Bandwagon good

2.) Coco... Not sure

3.)

vote: Peabody

That was a weird random vote when there was plenty else going on.

[Talitha]

er,

unvote: Hoopla
vote: Peabody

[Talitha]

Even overeager newbies typically actually want to vote for scum. They are usually MORE worried about making a good vote. People are buying the 'ooh, it's my first game, I must make a random vote or i just won't feel like my game experience is complete' explanation? It's possible that Peabody is genuine, but it's also likely that he's a scumbag hesitant to stick his neck out and make a proper vote.

I skipped over at least a page cause I'm too tired to read. I'll catch up properly after some sleep.

[Talitha]

CoCo, I'm tempted to vote for you for bringing up the most useless and overused acronym in mafia. As for your question: yes, it's the most vote-worthy thing I've seen so far. And why aren't you voting for anyone from the "scummy" wagon?

[Talitha]

Why?

[Talitha]

I'm not lurking and I'm not being intentionally quiet. I'm a mum of 3 kids who also has a weekday job, and as much as I love playing mafia I just don't have the time or energy to post as much as some of you do. I have barely played any games in the last 2-3 years because of my commitments, but I still like to play every now and then to try and keep in touch.

[Talitha]

Ohhh, I think you guys are on to something with Haru's posts. It was bugging me that they didn't look truly like someone learning Engish.

[Talitha]

Sorry, I'm only just catching up properly on all the posts.

This is my first game where I'm not a replacement on this site. I wanted to experience the RVS. Also, I do not believe my "before discussion starts" comment was so unbelievable. The only events that transpired was the questionable argument back and forth between Vaya and Coco. Many of you have already said the conversation was useless.

You can't really experience the random voting stage if it has already passed. Forget what "many" people have said (and I would dispute that it really was "many") ... are you saying that nothing had happened by the time you made your random vote that was even remotely interesting, comment-worthy, nothing that made you even slightly suspicious of any of the other players at all?

[Talitha]

Peabody, yeah, you did comment on the quick wagon in your first post (82), and also questioned charter's town read.

I can kinda see your first post as a joke-ish "must get a random vote in, before jumping into the debate" - but in post 126 you actually defend it and imply it wasn't a joke and it really was before discussion had started.

I probably would have unvoted you by now except for this apparent contradiction.

[Talitha]

Coco,

He is being inconsistent and contradictory. First he said he wanted to vote before discussion starts. In the same post he contributes to discussion that has obviously already started. Then in the post you quoted he says his earlier statement that discussion hadn't started yet was correct. THEN in post 171 (admittedly i did bait him into this, but still...) he confirms that in his first post he commented on the discussion that was already underway.

If he had just said that the random vote thing was a joke I might've let it go, but the post you quoted shows quite clearly that it wasn't.

[Talitha]

Coco, I really hope you don't do this obtuse crap on purpose. I've said twice now it is the contradiction.

[Talitha]

Hey Coco, if you don't agree with my point, I wouldn't expect you to vote with me. But I've been as clear as I can be and you're still missing my point, and I'm not sure if you're doing that on purpose. Anyway, I appreciate you taking a stand on Peabody, at least.

~~~
In other news I'm also interested in mathcam.. I think he could easily be scum.

The Hoopla vs Harufakefuji thing was interesting too. Still trying to figure out if I think Hoopla acted a little suspiciously there.

[Talitha]

Re: cam. It is mostly just a niggle which I'm not sure can be relied upon. But cam is very good at scum and manages to play very similarly as he would as town. So you have to look at the little things with him and go off your gut.
But,
- I don't think his posts have been as relaxed/natural as I'd expect if he were town
- The post about wanting to keep Hoopla around, I'm not sure a townie player as experienced as cam would say such a thing about another player, unless that person was close to being lynched. It can paint a target on them for a night kill.

[Talitha]

And I've decided that I do in fact find Hoopla suspicious. She already acknowledged that Haru's garbled-ness very likely has nothing to do with his alignment and is IMO incorrect, or at the very least exaggerating when saying that "Haru's garbled nothing-posts only serve to provide murkier waters for scum to lurk in".

[Talitha]

Hoopla, I think your quote is likely to be incorrect because the only scum that can "lurk in the murky waters" of Haru's posts, is Haru himself. Also, I don't see why one player not providing analysis is so detrimental. Really you only need

some

people to analyse. The rest of the players typically follow the analysis of whoever they agree with. Also, Haru's posts haven't been all nonsense. I've gotten as much from them as I've got from CoCo's, for example. The "Thalita, stop lurking" and his votes and unvotes have been perfectly clear.

I also would've been very interested in Haru's approach when he felt he had something important to say. It might've said a lot about his alignment had he broken his self-imposed posting style so that we could understand him.

But that's all beside the point. Hoopla, if you have no reason to think he's scum why didn't you try asking him to change his posting so we can understand? Why not try reasoning with him? Why go on the attack, vote and give an ultimatum? It smacks of looking for an easy target or a distraction.

On that subject what happened to your vote on Peabody? You unvoted with zero explanation ONE DAY after saying (re Peabody's wagon) "Good posting. This wagon needs to generate more steam." Why?

[Talitha]

I don't appreciate my arguments being called dumb, and think you're on a bit of a high horse there.

You found a "better place" for your vote; a policy vote, rather than someone you think actually looks scummy. Fine, but I think you're either full of it, or trying to bully someone out of playing the game the way they want to, which at this stage (their play) is not seriously hurting the town that I can see.

If you don't know how to get a read on someone unless they are posting normally, I suggest go read Silent mafia, or Mostly Mute Monk mafia, etc. Let your mind be opened.

[Talitha]

Ah, I see you were IN a Silent game. That is very interesting, but forget my last 2 sentences.

But to answer your question about a player posting in emoticons, no as long as they are trying to make themselves understood by some means I would not vote for them unless I had a reason to suspect them of being scum.

[Talitha]

Hoopla: (re apology) Thanks, it's no problem. I was tired and grumpy at the time.

I agree with whoever said Haru needs to keep contributing, as lurkers are the one kind of policy lynch that I'll support.

[Talitha]

*sigh*

[Talitha]

I'm sorry I didn't comment on your CoCo post, cam. I was too busy getting all wound up about equal rights for emoticons and all that.
I agree with you to an extent, but the problem is I find CoCo so.. unusual, it feels almost a waste of time to hold him to normal standards of how a scum or a townie might play.

[Talitha]

Why is it a contradiction to contribute to the discussion AND make a random vote for fun?

Peabody, it's basically that it was obvious that the discussion had already started, and you even contributed to that discussion. So the "before discussion starts" comment had to be a joke... except it wasn't, because in post 126 you defend it, seriously.

I usually wouldn't lynch someone on a reason like this alone, but you've been pretty quiet too.

[Talitha]

Sorry for a few days of no posts. I got a little behind and have been catching up.

Peabody, in reply to your iso-Talitha post: Some of it I'm not sure i understand but if you feel I havent responded to anything you think is important, please let me know.

1. In a mafia game almost everything could be boiled down to wine-in-front-of-me. Nothing can be proven, mafia is all guessing at other players motives and reasons. Don't try and shut down potentially useful conjecture by lazily throwing out "WIFOM".

Opinions count.

2. My post where I asked Hoopla "why?", go and check what Hoopla said. It was not "I want more content from her". it was "I expect more from her". It kinda sounded like she expected me to have caught all the scum already. Anyway it was sufficiently vague that I asked for clarification.

3. Thinking about your random vote stuff gives me a headache. I guess we should agree to disagree.

[Talitha]

I'm not a fan of the charter wagon, for the record.

I wouldn't vote for Sensfan at this stage, assuming he'll be contributing regularly from now on.

CoCo is verbose enough that if he's scum I think he'll trip up eventually.

The other 3 players with votes (Pea, Col & Hoop) I do have some suspicion of. Still slightly more suspicious of PB than the other two but could easily switch to support a bandwagon on either of the other two.

[Talitha]

Talitha reads as scummy to me, and someone came close to it in thread. It's the activity after a vote. Twice now, once at 208 where she comes into the game significantly after suspicion was cast her way

Post 208 was like my 10th post in the space of not much more than 24 hours. It's hardly coming into the game significantly at that point. My posts also are likely to come more often at weekends, and probably picked up when I was home sick for a couple of days about a week ago.
If that's not enough I can link you to games where I as scum am extremely active. It's not my alignment that affects my posting rate, it's my RL.

I really didn't like her post where she was upset at one of her arguments being called dumb.

Can you please elaborate on how this might indicate I'm scum?

Also, thanks for replacing in and catching up so quick.

[Talitha]

And, how can you say "Her reads are almost direct opposite of mine" when of the people that I've mentioned, 2 of 3 most suspicious ar on your 'Finding it hard to get a read on or neutral' list?

[Talitha]

(Just now realised that I snipped "once at 140" out of the first quote I made of SerialClergyman. I also incorrectly abbreviated his name to SR instead of SC.)

[Talitha]

(And I also just realised that I have again responded to suspicion with increased activity. Hmm, maybe it's just a

natural

response to someone pointing a finger at you.)

[Talitha]

I do.

[Talitha]

I'll try and do better.

[Talitha]

SC: I can understand your point about timing of my responses. It is kinda true. I don't really have a brilliant answer except that I'm having difficulty getting

into

this game and I've also had limited energy. When I see something directed at me it firstly seems like a priority to answer it, and I find it pretty easy to do, so I can do it even when tired. Talking about other people and their actions seems to require more thinking and energy, and I havent got into the swing of it in this game yet unfortunately.

Because it's a way of appealing to emotion. By being offended at the argument against you you case people to feel a bit guilty and not push as hard. Hell, you're a busy mother of three who's just trying to dabble a bit in a game that gives you some pleasure in between running a busy household - even I feel guilty attacking you!

Heh, but I am evil enough that I would try and use this to my advantage whether town or scum.
Also, I believe there is a place for our emotions in mafia. We're arguing and voting people out of the game - it brings up emotions. They make the game richer IMO. They give us more info which which to judge whether other players are genuine or not. For what it's worth, I was genuinely annoyed at the time.

And here's a couple mini normal games where I'm scum way back when i had no job and only 2 kiddies. The golden years :
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... c&&start=0
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... c&&start=0

[Talitha]

Also, best day 1 info comes from bandwagons and the tears and histrionics that accompany them. No-one is feeling the fear of the noose right now; let's change that please!

[Talitha]

Without ever having played with CoCo (or anyone like him) before I'm finding it hard to make up my mind on whether I think he's scum. I think there are others who are scummier, but it's hard to get any sense of conviction about that when no-one is under any real pressure from votes. Right now I'm content to let CoCo live another day and get rid of someone quieter today.

Vaya, are you there?

Could we have a vote count on this page please mod?

[Talitha]

Cam's arguments and research on CoCo got me waivering. Also the fact that looking back he defends Peabody rather strongly while attacking most others.

CoCo, you said a while back that you don't feel like Peabody is scum. Please explain your reasons.

Peabody, what are your opinions about CoCo?

[Talitha]

Cam I haven't posted on the last couple of pages as i havent been online. The good news is it's just about 5pm Friday evening here and I have no work for a couple of days.

I will catch up soon. Good to see Vaya back!

[Talitha]

When did "Iso-read" become the popular scum-hunt method. Take things out of their context and it'll pretty much tell you diddly-squat.

And yes it's me responding again immediately after having suspicion pointed at me, but YOU KNEW i was going to do that didn't you SerialClergyman, because I just TOLD you I am now home for the weekend.

SG: What exactly tipped to towards thinking Peabody is town?

I still need to read carefully the last 3 pages, and to buy myself some time I will:

unvote: Peabody
vote: SerialClergyman

I really didn't like the post where he says he wouldn't lose sleep if Peabody is lynched, but he doesn't want to do the dirty work because there are "better" targets out there. I can see a scum there who doesn't want to lynch a townie (or his partner).

[Talitha]

And my vote is also because SC's trying to lynch me based solely on the timing of my posts. He's insinuating I've been sitting here lurking, closely following the game, but only posting when I'm mentioned as suspicious. (Clue: I haven't. And I'm pretty sure he knows it.) If there was more to his case against me I must have missed it and I apologise.

[Talitha]

While I pretty much agree with Sensfan, you're certainly not alone on Scum in asking/expecting a claim at that point Col. Don't worry.

[Talitha]

Regarding Peabody, I still have suspicions that he and CoCo could be scum together. Peabody ignored CoCo completely up until I asked him about it, then started being quite aggressive in questioning CoCo.

I really, really like my Serial Clergyman vote though. Unfortunately I may not get a lot of support in it, because he's nice and posts more than me and appears to be playing as a good townie. My opinion: a wolf in sheep's clothing.

[Talitha]

After mulling it over, I still like Peabody as scum regardless of whether CoCo is scum.

So I'll still vote for lynching Peabody if that's who we can get a majority on.

I want my suspicions of SC on record though.

[Talitha]

Serial Clergyman - I never said you were scum for being too townie. You are scum because you are not genuine, and because you tried to entrap me.

I said I probably wouldn't get a lot of support because you're too townie. That's a likelihood, not a fallacy.

[Talitha]

Of course - she's supposedly town, so if I were scum moving off a townie I would have moved onto a different townie. So why she'd think I'd do that as scum is beyond me.

I'm not sure what you're saying here, but scum unvote one townie to vote for another townie all the time, for many different reasons.

[Talitha]

Sorry about the posts in a row, but I do not have much time before I have to go out and this is the quickest way for me to try and respond to everything.

Re: Me unvoting Peabody. If I were scum with Peabody I would not have started his wagon, continued to push his wagon, only to jump off at L-1. It was exactly what I said it was - buying time to talk to SC. I do not know if Peabody is scum, but I put it about 50/50 which is good enough for me. I just like SC better as scum ~ 60/40.

[Talitha]

Can we get Harumafuji back to replace CoCo? I'm dying here.


Also, let's not argue over likely setup, unless someone appears to have more information than they should. It might be 2, it might be 3. It might be 2 factions - we (town) have no idea until people start dying.

[Talitha]

Why I didn't revote, merely hours after unvoted stating I wanted a bit more time?

Like I said, I wanted more time to consider, and I want enough time for others to consider SC as a scum possiblity and state opinions if they chose. I also want enough time for SC to respond further if he chose to do so.

What about this is unclear?

Peabody, do you have any helpful words for the town before we murder you?

[Talitha]

Charter & SC. If people attack me or say they think I'm scum I'll defend it.
I don't go overboard but I do respond. There is NOTHING un-townie about this.

Saying I havent been scumhunting is untrue. I've not been as active as some, and I have explained why. Off top of my head I recall poking at mathcam, hoopla, peabody and more recently Serial Clergy. I havent followed up on cam & hoopla as I found them more and more town-ish as the game has gone on. Out of anyone else here I'm the most responsible for the Peabody wagon. (Whether that is points in my favour remains to be seen).

[Talitha]

Charter, like I said, I find him more and more townie. He's certainly good enough to fool me, but I'm not feeling a cam vote right now.

[Talitha]

When Peabody flips scum (my gut is now telling me that he will) I'm going to look very closely at those who pointed at my unvote as scummy (or "inappropriate").

If Peabody is town my unvote would've been extremely appropriate.
This is the first reason I've had to suspect Cyberbob.

unvote: Serial Clergyman
vote: Peabody

[Talitha]

Cyberbob: Why was the timing iffy? If he wasn't at L-1 (or 2 or whatever!) I wouldn't have needed to unvote to stall the lynch!!!!

charter: How am I pre-emptively defending myself if Peabody is town?!!


What do I think of mathcam trying to lynch someone he "thinks" is town? Exceedingly honest! He's keen to end the day which I am sympathetic to, and he has tried to get his prefered lynch (CoCo) lynched with no success. Saying he thinks Peabody is town is MISLEADING. It is more accurate to say that he thinks Peabody has more chance of being town than he does of being scum. Unless a scum has screwed up big time, anyone who says they're sure about someone being scum on Day 1 is either bluffing or lying, IMO.

[Talitha]

charter you've missed my point completely. It wasn't about defending myself... it was about those who were jumping up and down because I unvoted. To me it looks like they have more info on Peabody's alignment than I do.


And no I don't think settling on a less preferred option after 23 pages of day 1 is particularly scummy.

[Talitha]

It's the job that's inteferes with my mafia more than the kids, actually! (Fair warning: back to work tomorrow.. my posting rate will drop!)
Anyways, CoCo = ignore.


charter, I can understand where you're coming from. I can't speak for cam, but as for me, on Day 1 if I can't get someone I think is scum lynched, I'll settle for lynching anyone as long as they're not someone I actively think is town.

[Talitha]

Personally I'd celebrate that we got rid of someone who is unreadable (in more ways than one) and is a huge distraction.

[Talitha]

Can anyone point to another mod error please? I want to start the game over with the same players!

I haven't followed along 100% but pretty impressed with everyone who played the game to the (or their) end. The replacements were all fantastic, thank you so much.

Thanks for a brilliantly modded game, KK.