Open 163 (Jungle Republic)- Game Over before 835

[peacesells]

Hello everyone, just got word that I've replaced Cain. Seeing how he has 5 votes on him already I believe I've got my work cut out for me.

I read the thread (before I got my role) once yesterday hoping for a headstart if I got added to the game. With one read through my general feeling is Saber is scummiest acting (well actually, I would have voted Cain had I not been him as he appeared as a newb scum to me.)

unvote vote: Saber

To me Saber started flipping out when pressured then pretty quickly changed to a more calm approach. Seems to me one of his scum buddies advised him to chill out...and maybe fed him some ideas.

[peacesells]

To me Saber started flipping out when pressured then pretty quickly changed to a more calm approach. Seems to me one of his scum buddies advised him to chill out...and maybe fed him some ideas.

Unless there is rule-breaking, in the PMs fuzzy provided at the beginning, both anti-town groups are only allowed to converse during night. So this is not feasible. Unless you were saying that people told him to chill out in the game thread which i don't think happened.

Ok..thanks for that. I actually just skimmed that part and didn't catch that Fuzzy had an untypical rule for anti-town members.

Doing some more thinking on this...I'm not so sure about Saber being scum now as I was before. Seeing the vote count I can't see Saber not wagon voting for me (Cain) if he isn't anti-town. Could be a ploy but I'm gonna re-think my vote for a bit.

unvote

[peacesells]

Ok..gonna give some general feelings here on a few players. I think it's pretty likely that there is 1, 2 or 3 anti-town on the Cain wagon right now so I will be concentrating on those 5 players that voted for me (Cain.)

Kill Kill: I'm a bit confused about Kill Kill. He voted for Cain but subsequently put forth reasons how Cain would be town...not sure what to make of this. Fence riding with a hidden vote? Trying to make it seem like he was defending someone while still voting for them? Like I said, confused.

Scott: Someone had mentioned that Scott seems pretty town/helpfull so far. I don't get this. To me all he has done is fence sit and make general "mafia game" comments..."this usually happens" type stuff. They are the kinds of posts that make someone seem helpfull and "good" without actually committing to the game. Basically a play it safe style to avoid attention. Definitely not active scum hunting.

Lumi: Seems a bit paranoid that people continue to "singel" him/her out. Not sure what to make of this but seems really worried about players directing attention his/her way without any actual votes.

DT: If there is a player type in this game I can relate to the most it's DT. His early discuss about Mastin is probably one I would have agreed with. Why jump on someone who hasn't even showed up yet? FWIW I've played with Mastin and his Wall of text was tiresome...along with his insistance that we must META-game him. I have a hard enough time reading everything in one game let alone reading someone elses 5 other games. Sheesh! Anyway, back on topic. I don't see anything particularly good or bad about DT so far.

Toro: Earlier I stated that while reading the thread in case I got a role I thought that Cain seemed pretty scummy or horribly inexperienced and young. Well, I was pretty much following Toro's logic. Also his points to Kill-kill about his defense of Cain yet still voting him are interesting.

Right now my list of suspects would be in thise order. Scummy to Town

Vote Scott

lumi
Kill
DT
Toro

[peacesells]

@Peace

Also that statement is a bit weak on sabre's change in behavior. I'm more inclined to think the change over a

a course of days

not

within minutes

which would naturally mean he would cool down. If you can point out the time stamps of sabre's change in behavior it would me nice.

I've already backed off of this per Scott's post. I didn't really pay attention to time stamps while doing my read though.

I play on another site and everything happens there much much faster than here. I'll have to get used to that. Everything that has transpired here would have occured in 1 or 2 actual days at the other site.

[peacesells]

Right now my list of suspects would be in thise order. Scummy to Town

Vote Scott

lumi
Kill
DT
Toro

To be clear on this list. This is only ranking those that had votes on Cain (me) per my thoughts that there must be scum in there somewhere.

This does not mean others aren't scummy. It's just that I'm focusing my attention here while I have the to do so. To read the list correctly Toro looks town to me.

[peacesells]

I like this new guy, he gets Megadeth songs stuck in my head.

"I spread disease like a dog."

[peacesells]

Ok..thanks for that. I actually just skimmed that part and didn't catch that Fuzzy had an untypical rule for anti-town members.

ftr, that's not untypical at all.

also, peace, why just post those 5 names and not everyone? I'm not sure whether that's just the people you wanted to comment on or it's the 5 people you think are scum

Untypical in my experience with the game.

I tried to clarify it in my post 390. I was just outling my thoughts on those that had votes on Cain. I'm assuming at least one of them, possibly more, are scum of some type so I went ahead and profiled the voters. Don't have time now to do everyone..it is a lengthy process when coming late to the game.

[peacesells]

and his analysis ONLY of the people who voted Cain still sound anti-town to me.

I explained the reasoning for that and if you choose to outrightly act like I did not explain that reasoning then I can only assume you are trying to manipulate others thoughts in this regard.

Instead of saying "he only focused on those voting Cain" why don't you tear apart my reasoning instead. Then no one is misled by you into thinking I did a huge OMGUS tunnel on 5 players.

When I get the opportunity (meaning several hours of free time) I'll post my thoughts on other players.

[peacesells]

I think it's pretty likely that there is 1, 2 or 3 anti-town on the Cain wagon right now so I will be concentrating on those 5 players that voted for me (Cain.)

Why is it unlikely for there to be four or five scum voting you?

I guess there could be...but it doesn't fit my META experience. I've never seen a wagon of all scum...but since this game set up is one that I've never played...I guess they all could be scum. I still find it very doubtfull.

[peacesells]

I don't see how WIFOM is relavent in this. I can see OMGUS but not WIFOM.

[peacesells]

My vote is staying on Cain/peacesells. His lurking, wanting to be replaced at L-2, and his analysis ONLY of the people who voted Cain still sound anti-town to me. Also the little comment about how SW is acting scummiest seems like he's attempting to buddy up to town.

With one read through my general feeling is Saber is scummiest acting (well actually, I would have voted Cain had I not been him as he appeared as a newb scum to me.)

I'm still not sure about SW. The wagon built up so quickly then crumbled, not really sure what to think of that. He certainly has not been acting very town, but I think peacesells is still a better lynch for today.

SW:are you still content with your vote on Nik? What do you think of Cain's replacement?

Getting town reads from DT

I wasn't getting good vibes from hohum, but alas he has vanished. Need to hear more to make an opinion.

Toro has a weird style, but I would lean town for the time being. Not enough to go on here though.

Toro:Why did you unvote?

Still retain my earlier suspicions of lumi.

I am pretty neutral on nikanor, cow, kill, Zaz at the moment.

This is exactly the kind of post I have been looking for from you Scott. Why so long before announcing reads on players? Surely you had some of these before.

Really..that's the kind of post you were looking for? Let's analyze it a bit and see if there are really any thoughts of substance here.

I'm still not sure about SW. The wagon built up so quickly then crumbled, not really sure what to think of that. He certainly has not been acting very town, but I think peacesells is still a better lynch for today.

This statement is borderline informative. Makes a good point about the SW wagon. This is the only thing I consider an actual contribution to the scum hunt.

SW:are you still content with your vote on Nik? What do you think of Cain's replacement?

This is just filler. Asking questions like this are a disquise for lurking. Why doesn't he give HIS thoughts on the subject first?

Getting town reads from DT

Really? Why?...allmost a useless post due to it being a very non-committing statement.

I wasn't getting good vibes from hohum, but alas he has vanished. Need to hear more to make an opinion.

Again, why? State your reasons so you at least appear to be scum hunting.

Toro has a weird style, but I would lean town for the time being. Not enough to go on here though.

Toro:Why did you unvote?

Still retain my earlier suspicions of lumi.

Weird style makes him suspicious? If this is his method of play then that has no bearing on if he is town or scum...it's his style. How about more thoughts on why you think Toro is suspicious?

I am pretty neutral on nikanor, cow, kill, Zaz at the moment.

Here is some insight we can't do without.

As I pointed out before, Scott appears to be playing this game but is he really? Where has he been helpfull at all? Everything he has done so far has pretty much been fence sitting with some general "feelings" thrown in. To me it is obvious he does not want negative attention..hence his fence sitting and bland statements position.

[peacesells]

And this post, reflects a non-neutral opinion about one player (me), with a town lean for Toro. You are either "confused", "not sure what to make of this", or "don't see anything good or bad so far" about the other three players you list. And you accuse me of saying bland statements? It's also pretty ridiculous to chastise me for having neutral reads on players D1.

The statements I made that you may have interpreted as "nuetral" reads had much more to them than my feelings are nuetral on these players... I actually brought up thoughts on these players. BTW...my impression on Lumi is definitely not nuetral..he's/she's pretty scummy compared to others so far in my book.

How is my question filler? Obviously I think you are anti-town since my vote is still on you. SW hasn't posted in a awhile so I inquired about his vote. What do you want me to answer?

DT didn't overreact to the stupid Mastin beginning of this game and has been informative and questioning many people. So a town lean.

Hohum seemed to be antagonizing DT and keeping that Mastin argument going too long. But he has disappeared.

I was told this is Toro's style of play. Of course style of play is a factor. Do you play the same style of play when you are town and scum?

Toro: Obviously I am aware that Cain/peace are 2 different players. That doesn't mean we forget about the replaced player though.

Better stuff imo than just saying someone is scum/town/nuetral.

[peacesells]

[quote="Scott Brosius"]He posted in an ongoing game yesterday where I am dead however and still nothing here.
[quote]

This is interesting..do you have a link?

[peacesells]

I don't like this. Even with an unvote on me, to me it comes across as "I will spare you, in an attempt to scare you away from voting on me, otherwise I'll come back and vote for you".

unvote; vote: peacesells

I'm not completely sure why you don't like my unvote but your vote on me sure looks like a nice way to tie up the second wagon.

Is it really your opinion I am scum or is this more self-preservation?

[peacesells]

Kill Kill: I'm a bit confused about Kill Kill. He voted for Cain but subsequently put forth reasons how Cain would be town...not sure what to make of this.

Fence riding

with a hidden vote? Trying to make it seem like he was defending someone while still voting for them? Like I said, confused.

Bolded is mine. Note the irony.
In fact, most of his post is fencesitting. He claims a neutral read on everyone but Scott. Saying that it is pretty likely that at least one scum was on your bandwagon is pretty scummy as well. It allows you to say, 'Oh, that person wasn't scum? Well, there has to be at least one. On to the next one!' Aside from that, I don't know why you said 1-3 instead of 1-5. Seems like a slip to me.

To be clear on this list. This is only ranking those that had votes on Cain (me) per my thoughts that there must be scum in there somewhere.

Can you list your top three scumspects please?

I'll give you top two...how about that? Scott and Lumi. I'm sorry but I thought I made it clear Lumi was scummy imo on the original breakdown. Lumi being 2nd on the list = less scummy than Scott.

Please breakdown how most of the post was fence sitting? I'm pretty sure I came hard at Scott and Lumi for their actions.

[peacesells]

Kill Kill: I'm a bit confused about Kill Kill. He voted for Cain but subsequently put forth reasons how Cain would be town...

not sure what to make of this.

Fence riding with a hidden vote? Trying to make it seem like he was defending someone while still voting for them? Like I said, confused.

Lumi: Seems a bit paranoid that people continue to "singel" him/her out.

Not sure what to make of this

but seems really worried about players directing attention his/her way without any actual votes.

DT: If there is a player type in this game I can relate to the most it's DT. His early discuss about Mastin is probably one I would have agreed with. Why jump on someone who hasn't even showed up yet? FWIW I've played with Mastin and his Wall of text was tiresome...along with his insistance that we must META-game him. I have a hard enough time reading everything in one game let alone reading someone elses 5 other games. Sheesh! Anyway, back on topic.

I don't see anything particularly good or bad about DT so far.

Bolded is the part that makes it fencesitting.
Your Toro analysis is only slightly fencesitting because you seem to say you agree with him. I assumed from that you were saying you find him pro-town.
Also, you have gone from 'not sure what to make of this' to 'second on my scumlist' on lumi. Care to point out what about her you find scummy?

"Not sure what to make of this" is a conversational style choice. How about addressing the point I actually made concerning Lumi's actions? Why the paranoa with very little pressure?

Yes..so far I believe Toro is pro-town. DT as well but less so than Toro. Kill-kill is where I admit to fence sitting.

Again these are opinions. We'd do a better job of scum hunting if you reacted more to my points made in that whole post on whether you agree or not than picking on my particular semantics.

Was I full of sh*t in those statements? Why? Did you agree? Why.

It's my experience that when players start arguing semantics over substance there is something wrong.

Oh..and I think someone asked where I've played before. 1 other game here and many games on Myndjack.com, Dragonmount.com and Goallineblitz.com. I'm Peacesells on alll those sites if you wish to META me.

Here is the game I played here. http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 22#1765122

That was my first ever mafia game...it took about 5 months to complete. I've probably played 20-25 since then on various sites.

[peacesells]

Nik, peace, I'll offer my opinion on this after you two do, but do either of you want to respond to Saber's 444?

Sure..but Saber has a good point. I have a couple opinions on it but I'll hold off til you state yours.

[peacesells]

Toro...I pretty much agree with you but I also see the value of lynching someone who is not helping and possibly scum lurking. If it didn't come from Saber...I'd give it more credance.

[peacesells]

I guess we are gonna have to vote Hohum just to force a response from him.

unvote Scott Vote Hohum

[peacesells]

Scum points to the cow for the flat out lies.

Can you please point out his lies?

BTW..thanks for showing up.

unvote

[peacesells]

\o/

Not really a smiley face...heh...looks like the other end

[peacesells]

it's a little man waving his arms.

The lies being specifically that I'm posting in other games.

Well..maybe he should provide links or game names?

[peacesells]

First off, talking about ongoing games is the same thing as giving links to them. You just don't discuss them. Ever. That's one of the main rules of this entire site.

I had no clue this was a rule...the first game I was in had multiple link posts in it. Please point me to this rule.

[peacesells]

From the sticky. Bolded the pertinant ruling...ie there is no problem with using outside games as a basis for scum hunting. Feel free to mention or post links.

"Mafia Specific Rules

Breaking rules, not posting, or certain other behavior may result in a modkill or replacement in individual games; rules regarding this should be (and generally are) included up front by the moderator. Some rules apply to most games, and should be assumed to hold unless the moderator explicitly says otherwise. These are:


Do not attempt to play the same game under more than one name.

Do not bring outside influences into the game - this includes threats, bribes, wagers, promises, alliances, etc.

Using knowledge from previous games is perfectly acceptable

, but try not to carry grudges from one game to another.

Do not talk outside the game thread about an ongoing game except where allowed to do so by your role. Likewise, do not use bbcode to hide secret messages - this equates to discussion outside the thread.

Do not edit/delete posts.

Do not quote communications with the moderator (in particular, your role PM). Paraphrasing is usually ok.

Do not talk after you are dead or replaced. Some moderators do allow contentless "Bah!" posts, but you should never reveal information once you are dead.

Play to win the game"

[peacesells]

I think it is pretty thin to consider saying someone is posting in another game as discussing THAT game. I think you are arguing semantics for a dubious reason.

[peacesells]

I think it is pretty thin to consider saying someone is posting in another game as discussing THAT game. I think you are arguing semantics for a dubious reason.

you just can't specifically reference it. Saying "they're posting in another game" is fine, you can't say "they're posting in Game X" because it affects that game, even if you don't think so.

Plus, please explain what is dubious and how, because that's incredibly unspecific and looks like just trying to get people on your side against me.

I understand now...thought you were saying it can't be talked about.

[peacesells]

EDWOP Clarification...that you were saying specifically that someone was posting in another game...

Ignore the dubuios as this has been clarified.

[peacesells]

All, I've been gone the past few days, unexpected out of town trip with my father-n-law.

There has been a ton of day one analyzing going on, so much so that it is going to be difficult to see the forrest through the trees so to speak.

Vote histories will speak volumes at this point and

hohum

should be fine to get that started.

I believe this puts him at L-1...if this doesn't prod him, nothing will and we'll just have to live with the results and use the votes for analyzing future lynch subjects.

[peacesells]

peace: thats not a legit vote.

Eager?

vote Hohum

[peacesells]

simply eh?

Just hope that Hohum turns up scum..otherwise..........

[peacesells]

simply eh?

Just hope that Hohum turns up scum..otherwise..........

what the heck are you talking about? You're attacking saberwolf for correcting you? How incredibly ridiculous.

FoS

Are you and Saber scum partners? Why would a town player be so exasperated by one little comment? Why would you be defending him on day 1?

[peacesells]

simply eh?

Just hope that Hohum turns up scum..otherwise..........

Are you threatening me, or attempting to set up future mislynches? Either way, it's not very town of you.

Are you attempting to set up an argument against a future point I may make against you if Hohum comes up innocent? Is this town of you?

[peacesells]

simply eh?

Just hope that Hohum turns up scum..otherwise..........

what the heck are you talking about? You're attacking saberwolf for correcting you? How incredibly ridiculous.

FoS

Are you and Saber scum partners? Why would a town player be so exasperated by one little comment? Why would you be defending him on day 1?

Why are you pinning the blame of the hohum wagon on saber Peace?

I am not blaming Saber for the wagon.

I just think he is eager for the lynch. Didn't take long for him to "catch" my voting mistake and comment on it. I think (purely my conjecture) that he wants this to really go through and was tuned in to "seeing" a voting mistake and pointed it out quickly. I would chalk this up as a psychological gamble on my part.

And, I purposely worded things they way I did to get a reaction from Saber. The reaction from Has was just a bonus.

[peacesells]

also, arguing a question with another question is very untownlike.

Do you really think I was arguing a question with another question or perhaps pointing out how you were just setting me up with your question. You were making a pre-emptive strike and I counter with your same methodolgy.

Here's a hint...my question wasn't really a question it was a statement about your game play.

[peacesells]

Hello, PLAYERNAME. You are a

Mafia Goon

, and are part of the Mafia, along with PLAYERNAME and PLAYERNAME, who are also Goons. You may converse here during night, but you have taken the Pact of Inpracticality and are therefore unable to make a night kill. You win when either a) you make up a full majority of the town, or b) if you make up half and one pro-town role is still alive. Check the special rules.

Hello, PLAYERNAME. You are a

Werewolf

, along with PLAYERNAME, who is also a Werewolf. You may converse here during night, and every night, you may nightkill someone. You win when either a) you make up a full majority of the town, or b) if you make up half and one pro-town role is still alive. Check the special rules.

MOD QUESTION

On these two descriptions you advise to "Check the special rules." Were these rules listed only for the two groups or did you publish them someone and I am missing them?

Check the wiki

- Fuzzy

[peacesells]

Oh the irony. Who was doing the setup when they set up a sentence to imply that if hohum flipped town, I would be next.

It seems we were both guilty.

[peacesells]

RE: Bolded: Isn't that what town should be looking for? Little comments that show alignment.

Wasn't I doing the same? Looking at a "Little comment" to see alignment?

Do you dictate which comments are little enough?

Are you really that exasperated that I would have the nerve to try and do something that you just said is what we are supposed to be doing?

Really....

[peacesells]

@Town
I just noticed, almost a lot of the people who were addressed in Zazie's posts did not respond to them. Why?

Points at Kill, Sabre, Peace, Toro , hohum (then again he's not been posting in this game for the longest time) and maybe Nik

I responded back in my 516, but I can't seem to find everyone's response back.

Can you point to this post...I must have missed it in his wall of posts.

[peacesells]

I'm sorry you don't need to point it out, I've found it. When he posted that I thought he was just making statements and I have no clue what he means by "Gut Activated." Does he need a TUMS?

So to answer his questions in the order he asked: Yes, No.

[peacesells]

I will be gone for the next few days fishing. Probably won't post til Monday.

[peacesells]

Well..I really hate the way they handle night phases here. I don't see any reason why we should not be able to continue to discuss the game during that phase.

I've completely lost track in this game and will need to do a thorough re-read. This won't take place til mid week next week unfortunately. Sorry guys.

[peacesells]

Well..I really hate the way they handle night phases here. I don't see any reason why we should not be able to continue to discuss the game during that phase.

besides the fact that, you know, flavor-wise, everyone's sleeping?

Well, peacesells is an insomniac, good to know.

Next week this will be true as I will be working the graveyard shift.

[peacesells]

DTmaster == obvscum

wow insightfull.

Hokum you know that if you get lynched and flip innocent this is your fault as this is completely anti town behavior. My only hesitation is that scum normally wouldn't be this obvious.

[peacesells]

Hohum you are now at l-1. Do you have anything at all to say/contibute?

[peacesells]

If you are town your are doing us a horrible disservice hohum. You need to participate. We could very easily be down to 2 townees if you are lynched and the were's kill off another townee tonight.

[peacesells]

Hohum is not going to answer. Either he just doesn't care or this is some kind of gambit.

[peacesells]

@Peace

If he's not going to answer these questions then it's a strike against him. Town-Hohum can do a bandwagon analysis/reaction analysis but when you can pull out legitimate accusations against him then its no mistake that he appears scummy.

I don't see why you slightly frown upon the questions given the connotation of your statement.

I don't frown on them at all. In fact I'd love to see his answers but he has ignored both of us so far and I don't see that changing. Like I said he either doesn't care or is trying some kind of gambit.

[peacesells]

Are u guys really arguing my voting mistake? This is the only place I play where the word vote is neccessary.

Anyway, hohum just refuses to cooperate at all

vote hohum[\b]. He's been given plenty of opportunity to defend and participate.

[peacesells]

Stupid I phone. Did it again.

vote hohum

[peacesells]

I think one more is required.

[peacesells]

@Peace

That's the same as L-1. >>

I know that. I was confirming his thought.

[peacesells]

Hohum...if you couldn't play...why didn't you just ask for a replacement? Self voting lessens the game experience for others playing.

[peacesells]

Hahaha, I'm pretty sure Scott is mafia.
@Scott: Shotty's unvote of hohum is not scummy. If Shotty had not unvoted, hohum would most likely have self-hammered then and there, which would have been much more beneficial for scum than for town.
I agree with Cow that lynching our mafia suspects is the right way to go for now. We still have a seer that can out the last wolf, remember.
Also, now that we are down to one wolf, the seer should claim as soon as he gets a guilty. That way we can kill the last wolf as well as have a confirmed townie that cannot be killed.

What makes you say that Scott is Mafia Nik?

He's trying to go after an easy target saying my unvote is scummy when it really isn't, for one. Also he really wants to focus on the werewolves, makes him sound like mafia which will probably win for sure with a full team and both wolves down. I'll have to reread to verify but I'm pretty sure someone else posted on Scott yesterday.

Why are you answering for nikanor?

And Toro joins another potential wagon! I'm not just talking about people who have been lynched, as I said before anytime someone is at an L-2, you are on it. Most of the time, you regurgitate reasons for the lynch that others have used including your most current vote. I realize I have been on the 2 lynches, but not every single L-2.

I don't know if Toro is quick to join band wagons but I just went through his ISO to try and see if you claim is true. What I saw is he is quick to vote. Not sure bandwagon would be appropriate. Toro is definitely not afraid to vote based on his whims.

[peacesells]

@Scott: Shotty's unvote of hohum is not scummy. If Shotty had not unvoted, hohum would most likely have self-hammered then and there, which would have been much more beneficial for scum than for town.

I refuse to believe that hohum self-hammering 3 days before he actually did (if shotty kept his vote) would be "much more beneficial" for scum. That's an exaggeration. It would be the same result, killing a wolf.

It would be if that three days of discussion resulted in a scum slip.

I would say it is apparent now that Hohum had made up his mind and was willing to die. He did so in a way to help his team though...having no discussions really with anyone except a few cryptic "You are scum" posts. We can't really get a bead on his interactions and therefore finding his scum partner is that much more difficult.

[peacesells]

I would tend to agree with DTMaster on this.

Nik, I would assume your reasoning for not revealing your "revelation" is because you don't want scum to know what you are thinking and therefore wish to not be a night kill?

If this is the case, you are a target now regardless. If the werewolf thinks you are onto something he is gonna target you anyway. You would have been better served not to make the statement at all and just bread crumb what you are thinking to the rest of us.

Now if it was a gambit type move where you were just trying to draw reactions..I guess it was moderately successful but I'm not sure those reactions have resulted into anything but Null tells like DT has stated.

[peacesells]

I don't think they would be that obvious but one of them could be.

[peacesells]

I don't know if I'd consider there being a bandwagon with just 2 votes. But the admiral really hasn't done anything in this game. Hard to figure his reasoning to vote.

[peacesells]

Actually, I change my mind. Just did a re-read of all of TheAdmirals posts and he's been on Toro a long time. I just forgot about that.

[peacesells]

I guess that leaves Nik. But I don't neccessarily consider him scummy either.

The problem I have with his "revelation" play is that without disclosing his reasoning and without me having my own "revelation" I'm not gonna follow his vote just because he thinks we should.

[peacesells]

Well, I was asked about the people who've voted for Toro. I was not asked about Toro himself.

Now reading shotty's post and can see where he is coming from. Quick jumping may lead to helping a lynch happen. Or, it could be unsure townee. But I don't think his jumping around is as scummy as his lack of contribution. If I recall correctly Toro pretty much post's fluff. That in combination with his vote jumping doesn't look good. I'm pretty sure this

VOTE TORO

puts him at L-1.

[peacesells]

I answered a specific question that was asked of me. No, I was not kidding.

I answered they way I did because you were attempting to lead others to believe I was skirting a question, and I was not.


And to make sure I answer Shotty's question, I still have a "feeling" as lame as that is that Scott is scummy. Still basing this on his "helpful" play on day 1.

[peacesells]

His last few posts were pretty much fence-sitting and even this post reeks of it a little, saying Toro could be unsure townie.

Fencesitting, maybe. Probably because since I am not scum I don't know how is and who isn't. It's strange to me you can be so sure of yourself at this stage of the game. I'm pretty sure all town are fence sitting right now. Otherwise...they wouldn't be town.

You guys throw accusations around like mud at a wall. You just hope and pray something sticks without regard to who gets dirty.

[peacesells]

As I said before there were 2 whole votes on Toro when the question was asked. THat is not what I consider a wagon. Is that what you consider one?

Also, You keep mentioning my experience...you have no clue how I have played before. How about looking at my meta and seeing how I've played day 1 here on mafiascum.net.

My experience is elsewhere and the way I play there completely rubs people the wrong way here. So your references to experience are hogwash and if you insist on using that statement then please link where it is pertinant.

[peacesells]

So, I find it neccessary to refute Niks claim I was misrepresenting him. Lets start at the vote count. 2 players on Toro

:

Vote Count #16

Shotty to the Body

: 1

(Scott Brosius)

Nikanor

: 1

(Toro)

Toro

: 2

(Nikanor, ThAdmiral)

Not Voting

:

(hasdgfas, Shotty to the Body, DTMaster, peacesells)

With 8 alive it takes 5 to lynch.

Here is DTM's exact question:

@Peace

Who would you accuse to be scummy on the bandwagon Peace and why?

Here is my first reply concerning the Admiral

I don't know if I'd consider there being a bandwagon with just 2 votes. But the admiral really hasn't done anything in this game. Hard to figure his reasoning to vote.

Then I re-read his posts and changed my mind.

Actually, I change my mind. Just did a re-read of all of TheAdmirals posts and he's been on Toro a long time. I just forgot about that.

Then that default to Nik being the scummiest but I wasn't so sure and posted this.

I guess that leaves Nik. But I don't neccessarily consider him scummy either.

The problem I have with his "revelation" play is that without disclosing his reasoning and without me having my own "revelation" I'm not gonna follow his vote just because he thinks we should.

--side track here --Notice Nik doesn't even address my "revelation" concern in way yet he accuses me of not addressing Toro as scum. --


Now here is where Nik basically implies I wasn't answering a question.

What I really want to hear is peacesells's thoughts on this here Toro wagon. So far we've got, 'One of ThAdmiral or Nik is scum,' with no mention at all of Toro.

and I refuted by stating I answered the question asked. Does he even consider I'm not ready to address Toro yet? No...he attacks. He played his Toro "revelation" gambit and now he is trying another one on me.

I'm gonna do a blatant OMGUS and change my vote now.

Unvote

Vote Nik

[peacesells]

I answered a specific question that was asked of me. No, I was not kidding.

I answered they way I did because you were attempting to lead others to believe I was skirting a question, and I was not.


And to make sure I answer Shotty's question, I still have a "feeling" as lame as that is that Scott is scummy. Still basing this on his "helpful" play on day 1.

really? Isn't it convenient that you do this just after he votes you.

I also have no idea why you're voting for nik. It seems like it's just because he wanted you to answer a question you didn't want to.

Cow, you need to re-read and pay attention. Nik has NOT voted me. So your conclusion is false.

[peacesells]

I answered a specific question that was asked of me. No, I was not kidding.

I answered they way I did because you were attempting to lead others to believe I was skirting a question, and I was not.


And to make sure I answer Shotty's question, I still have a "feeling" as lame as that is that Scott is scummy. Still basing this on his "helpful" play on day 1.

really? Isn't it convenient that you do this just after he votes you.

I also have no idea why you're voting for nik. It seems like it's just because he wanted you to answer a question you didn't want to.

Cow, you need to re-read and pay attention. Nik has NOT voted me. So your conclusion is false.

But I voted you, and then you called me scummy after that and then after Nik questioned you, you placed a self-admitting OMGUS vote.

My post calling you scummy happened the same time you posted. But I called you scummy a long time ago.

[peacesells]

This is my original "Scott is scum" Post.

Scott: Someone had mentioned that Scott seems pretty town/helpfull so far. I don't get this. To me all he has done is fence sit and make general "mafia game" comments..."this usually happens" type stuff. They are the kinds of posts that make someone seem helpfull and "good" without actually committing to the game. Basically a play it safe style to avoid attention. Definitely not active scum hunting.

Vote Scott

lumi
Kill
DT
Toro

[peacesells]

And I was seriously considering an off-handed comment about your maturity level, but I decided you probably wouldn't be able to handle it.
.

just because you put a smiley behind it and doesn't mean it was not an insult.

I don't think that thus type of play is going to get you the result you expect. Please refrain from personal insults in the future.

[peacesells]

How about two more choices.

C. Thinks your town and your gambit resulted in a null tell.


Or

d. Thinks you are scum that will try gambits to attempt to make others look scummy.

My reason to vote toro was much more in line with shotys reasoning than yours.

[peacesells]

In a way your little gambit can be considered a deflection away from the Scott wagon

Deflection away from a wagon I started?

I'd have to agree here in being confused. What Scotty Wagon?

[peacesells]

DTM..I'll give a small crack at it. Started to read his ISO and wow..his 2nd post really struck me as odd and pretty much sums up his non-contributing later in the game.

1st post

I'm going to waste my vote on a serious note:

Vote Mastin

I know you think it's cute to go on text-wall rants that span multiple pages; however all you're really doing is wasting a lot of your (and what's infinitely worse) and everyone else's time. For the sake of our sanity please learn to incorporate the art of brevity into your writing.

Now read his 2nd one..

I joined this game specifically to make that post. I'm a little disappointed that I didn't hit the preview button first, because it needed proof reading. The point still stands though.

Also: @saberwolf, please don't encourage him.

He then goes on to be completely beligerant (sp?) with posts like the following:

I've answered your question 3 times already. Pay attention, dumbass.

That was about his 5th direct insult.

After that he went AWOL with only token posts when called on it. This was one.

\o/

Then he posted he was basically inactive in all games but someone pointed out by using Google search you could find that he was lying about his inactivity. Votes started being placed on him...he didn't put up any fight, in fact encouraged the voting for him. Finally he self-hammered.

Going back to his 2nd post it seems he was being honest. He was really only here to harass Mastin. Amazing a Mod would actually behave this way.

He did have arguments with Nik, Saber and You. Most/harshest of his insults directed at Nik.

Now I've just realized you asked for his meta..bah and I thought you meant his actions in this game. I haven't done a meta on him, but I never do that. Ah well, still worth posting I believe in case there was some bussing going on.

[peacesells]

@Peace
Um that was useless, especially when I googled search him to point out how Hohum was lying and many of us attacked him. What I specifically need is outside complete meta where Hohum self-hammered himself. There is a reason I asked for it.

Rehashing this to "look helpful" when you just know that I asked for meta is really, really, really, really, pointless. If this was a case on a living person I would vote you for rehashing everything to appear townie contributing to discussion.

Frustration: Peace

Like I said in my last line. And don't be so arrogant to presume that everyone thinks the way you do.

[peacesells]

Let me ask you one question DTM..do you think there is no value in looking at Hohum's interactions with others? Maybe your high horse can be lowered a bit to take different perspective.

[peacesells]

yes..I admitted to it at the bottom of my post because that is when I realized my error in reading your question..and decided to post anyway.

[peacesells]

[quote="DTMaster

@Kill (You meant me right?)
Then why, knowing that you didn't answer question, still didn't give me an answer to my question. Yes your bussing theory is new and might be something to talk about, but the above issue still stands.

[/quote]

After I realized my mistake I actually attempted to try and meta him. But he has 100+ pages of posts. Sorry, but that is just too daunting a task and I don't have that much free time to do it.

[peacesells]

I've just completed a read through on Toro and noticed some subtle buddying going on. What is everyone's general feeling on buddying? Is it a scum tell or a null tell?

[peacesells]

It was with me. I'll post it tommorrow. Logging off from work now.

[peacesells]

A lot of this is gut, but I've had a bad feeling from pretty much the very beginning, based on the way the game has gone. He's seemed a bit too jumpy.

explain jumpy?

[peacesells]

Nik You aren't as subtle as you think you are in leading town around.

[peacesells]

Cow. How about pointing it out. You are evading.

[peacesells]

Nik You aren't as subtle as you think you are in leading town around.

peacesells, you aren't as subtle as you think you are when it comes to misrepresentation and defending your scumbuddies.

you are setting up two lynches and setting up you opinions as fact. Your postings are set up to influence not scum hunt. This is called directing and is a scum trait.

[peacesells]

A lot of this is gut, but I've had a bad feeling from pretty much the very beginning, based on the way the game has gone. He's seemed a bit too jumpy.

explain jumpy?

what could jumpy possibly mean, peace? It's not that difficult.

Cow who do you feel is scummy? You haven't placed a vote since you unvoted hohum D1 (as far as I remember).

I haven't? well how about that, I could've sworn I'd voted. Let's rectify that situation, shall we.

vote: peacesells

A lot of this is gut, but I've had a bad feeling from pretty much the very beginning, based on the way the game has gone. He's seemed a bit too jumpy.

How can you vote based on "gut" considering the enormous amount of evidence presented against Toro, what do you think of the posts that have been made about him? Do you still think he's just a VI, I can't really see how that remains true.

That's also gut. Maybe my gut is just completely off, but something feels wrong in this lynch. It's like it's too easy, which I don't like at all with 4 scum still out there.

This lynch is far too DIFFICULT for Toro not to be scum, look at how long we've been sitting at L-1 and the votes that have been shifted around.

The deadline is 2 weeks away. That's why there isn't a hammer.

[peacesells]

I would definitely say that Toro's behavior in this game is different than another one he is playing. He's definitely actively defending himself there. I'm not sure if it is a tell or not but shows he is capable of active defense.

I follow the philosophy that it is town's job to actively defend yourself to the death along with scum hunting.

Athough once a solid wagon has been built no amount of defending can derail it...but the interactions you have while making your defence leaves clues behind for the remaining townees to scumhunt.

Toro..if you are town...you need to defend yourself. You need refute what people are saying. This is your way of scumhunting.

[peacesells]

By pointing out flaws in his logic. Pointing out where you have issues. It doesn't matter if he responds with "nope, lynch'em anyway." cause those responses well be telling us something if you flip innocent.

[peacesells]

By pointing out flaws in his logic. Pointing out where you have issues. It doesn't matter if he responds with "nope, lynch'em anyway." cause those responses well be telling us something if you flip innocent.

The whole argument he used against me in the first place is a flaw in his logic!

How? That's what you need to describe. Just pointing and saying "FLAW!" isn't gonna work. Plus there are others on your wagon...what about the things they are posting.

[peacesells]

I'm gonna attempt to make a case here the Nik is the last werewolf. I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts on this.

Hohum situation:

Nik was against the lynching lurkers and pushed very hard for a mod for a replacement. As a werewolf I'm sure he was not happy that his partner wasn't even trying. A new player could have come in and possibly defended himself well enough to not get lynched.

Here he starts to cover for hohum when hohum goes silent:

No, I'm in another game with hohum, and he's silent in that one as well, so I wouldn't consider it a tell.

Defending lurking posts:

I really don't think hohum's lurking is much of a scumtell.
He seems to be dead in another game I'm in with him as well.
I would prefer a forced replacing of hohum than a lynch, if possible, since I believe him to not be scummy enough for a lynch.

I didn't realise he was posting in other games. In another game I was in with him, he just got mislynched today for doing almost the same as he's done here. Can you provide game names (since our mod doesn't allow links, although honestly I don't see the problem when we're just using the links to cite easily verifiable fact)?

Because Lynch all Lurkers is stupid.

@Shotty: If you think peacesells is scummy, why aren't you pushing for his lynch instead of hohum's?

Lynch all Liars is stupid as well.

(he goes on to explain his reasoning. You can ISO him for it.)

If possible, I'd like for hohum to show up and start playing the game. If that's not possible, I'd like for a replacement. If that isn't possible, then I might go for a hohum deadline lynch if we can't find anyone better to lynch.

Starts setting up reasons why certain people won't be night killed. This is important cause later he discourage speculation on why someone was NK'd.

DTM: Probably not getting killed tonight. I've said on multiple occasions that I'm suspicious of him, so I don't see how saying it once more will affect anything.
peacesells: Definitely not getting killed tonight. Not after that bandwagon on him midday.
Note that both of these can change based on the werewolves' opinions on these people (given they aren't werewolves themselves). i.e. whether they think said people are mafia.

Here it is:

I have no idea why Zazie was killed, but speculating on the nightkill is probably not a good idea.

Not liking his inactive partner?

@Mod: A prod on hohum, please?

He even goes as far as dismissing the scummines of Hohum lying.

But in Hohum's case, he lied to try and get the attention away from him. And in this case, it's scummy. Do you agree? If not, why?

Since you say it like that, and not 'OMG HE IZ A LIER GAIZ LINCH HIMM NAOOO,' like all the other players at that time were doing, I'm inclined to agree that it is slightly scummy. But it is not worth lynching him over, in my opinion.

@Mod: Can you institute a prod limit, maybe? Just so that we can get hohum replaced if he just decides to post every time he's prodded. :/

Here he states why we should keep the werewolf alive if outed by the seer. Possibly planting the idea early incase it's needed later.

No, since mafia can't kill, we still have a chance in a 2v3v1 game. So long as we commit to a no-lynch (the wolf would have to agree with us here, since it is his best chance of staying alive), if the wolf kills mafia, it'll be 2v2v1, then if we lynch mafia and the wolf kills mafia, it's down to 2v1. After that, we lynch the wolf, and town wins.
It's a long shot, but the possibility is there.

Again, I'd like to hear everyone's opinion on this.

[peacesells]

Looking at the interactions between nik and hohum on pages 2-4, I doubt Nik is the last werewolf.

could be seen as distancing.

[peacesells]

I don't care if he is, talking about werewolves isn't to town advantage. We need to lynch mafia to improve our chances, not the last wolf. If we go into a standard nightless with 3 mafia alive we're not going to be very happy.

It is because if he is the Wolf then his lynch motives/discussion have to be suspect.

[peacesells]

Stop with the bullshit attacks, please.

Nik..why is it you are the only player allowed to point out cases on others? Primadonna much?

Again..you like to insult and wink. Call something bullshit and say please. You stink like a used carsalesman. Arrogant to boot.

[peacesells]

peacesells, if you think I am more likely to be a werewolf, why is your vote still on me?
In your opinion, who is most likely to be mafia?

You are right. I forgot I had a vote on you.

unvote

[peacesells]

Nik..why is it you are the only player allowed to point out cases on others? Primadonna much?

Again..you like to insult and wink. Call something bullshit and say please. You stink like a used carsalesman. Arrogant to boot.

No, I called one attack of yours bullshit, because it was bullshit. Some of your other points were legitimate (if wrong), so I didn't call them bullshit. How do you not see the difference?

Because..you come across as arrogant, sarcastic, better than the rest. You've done it to me before and others. I'm gonna call you on it...if anything for the social lesson involved regardless of the game situation.

BTW...Bullshit is not a defense.

[peacesells]

EDIT: and now I see peace is, by his own admission, werewolf-hunting, which is blatant selective scumhunting. Lynch lynch lynch lynch lynch lynch lynch lynch lynch.

I was casing Nik for scum tells. To me, both werewolf and mafia are scum. If he jumps out at me as werewolf during my re-read are you expecting me to ignore it?

We have 2 weeks to the deadline. There is no reason not to explore all possibilites.

Also...Cow..purposely not looking for a Werewolf would also be considered selective scumhunting. Is this what you are guilty of?

[peacesells]

peacesells, if you think I am more likely to be a werewolf, why is your vote still on me?
In your opinion, who is most likely to be mafia?

Scott

[peacesells]

This is exactly why I didn't want to start talking about werewolves, Peace is blowing smoke out of his ass about Nik to fog up the issue on Toro. Look at Scott's last post, Peace makes no sense he's just posting as much bullshit as he can to distract us.

How does scum hunting others fog the issue on Toro. Not looking at all cases is called Tunneling.

You guys sure like to use arguments like "bullshit" and "Blowing smoke out your ass" etc....those aren't arguments. Those are blatant scum actions trying to discredit others.

Everyone in this game should be cased..including Toro.

Shotty? Why do you want him lynched with two weeks to go on the deadline? Are we not in a precarious position now? What is the scenario if he flips town?

[peacesells]

peacesells, you are being ridiculous.

Again, not an argument. This is a common scum tactic that is akin to subliminal messaging. Post negative traits about someone enough and others subconsciously start to believe it. Recently you've called me immature, called my actions bullshit and now ridiculous. This is what I was referencing before when I said you aren't as subtle as you think you are.

You say that Scott is most likely to be mafia because of his early-game selective scumhunting, correct?

Incorrect. My view is that he's trying to "look" helpfull without actually doing anything

Do you have any other reason to suspect Scott? If so, I'd like to see it.

No, that's pretty much it. If I had a strong case on someone, I would have posted it in detail by now. Just because I list Scott as my "most likely" mafia...doesn't mean I strongly feel that way. I do strongly feel you are scum of some sort and most likely werewolf. That is why I posted a detailed case on you.

On another note. Toro's refusal to defend himself or even scumhunt/case others is not looking good.

[peacesells]

Looking at the interactions between nik and hohum on pages 2-4, I doubt Nik is the last werewolf.

could be seen as distancing.

Distancing from Nik? I thought you were positive he was wolf? Therefore he doesn't have a partner...therefore you make absolutely no sense.

Scott, you confused me here.

What I see on pages 2 - 4 between hohum and Nik is basically a fabricated arguement. Hohum shows anger about being told where to vote by Nik. Could this not be considered distancing? Or bussing?

Hohum was a wolf per his coroner report. So, Nik would be his partner. What do you mean by this?
"

Distancing from Nik? I thought you were positive he was wolf? Therefore he doesn't have a partner...therefore you make absolutely no sense

."

[peacesells]

I wasn't sure about Hohum, I'm much more confident in this lynch and I don't know if we're getting drawn off-track here or not.

Shotty..odds are, the Toro lynch is going to happen at some point. I base this on the pretty uninterested play on many here. Someone is gonna say "ah f* it" and hammer.

If you believe Toro is scum...why not spend this time hunting his partners as well?

[peacesells]

if you believe Toro is scum...why not spend this time hunting his partners as well?

You mean you?

If you wish to case me, then I encourage you do so.

[peacesells]

Peace 1075: Reads as mafia play, but your case as some weight. It will be good to investigate later on.

DT, I'd like to talk to you after the game about this. Please keep your feelings on this post fresh in your mind somehow if you don't mind.

Nothing to do with the actual game...just general game philosophy.

[peacesells]

Good luck town..you have a long row to haul now.

Bad werewolf, bad werewolf.