Open 163 (Jungle Republic)- Game Over before 835

[Shotty to the Body]

Greetings friends, I will be re-reading as of now. I don't know if my predecessor had a vote down, but

unvote

nevertheless.

[Shotty to the Body]

I just finished my re-read I'll get a full rundown on everyone tomorrow, but this argument has just gone downhill.

It isn't horrible logic at all. Others can wagon me for lynching. That's one thing. You took it one step further by inventing fathom posts that I am NOT making.

It's not good enough for yoy to call me on the shit I actually did. You need to manufacture evidence to support your case, because you've literally got nothing.

Wait my bad.

Unvote

Vote: Hohum

Hohum posted in other games after the 17th. Some are lengthy posts I just checked the September time stamps and misread. Has' case is verified.

You said yourself lynch all liars Hohum, what do you have to say?

Clearly, one side here is abusing the fact that the search function is down and that kind of gameplay is downright dishonest, this may sound silly in a game based around deception but this borders on something else. At any rate, this is a discussion for the gameplay ethics forum and I would ask everyone to take the time to go through the google search and confirm the facts for themselves as I will be doing.

[Shotty to the Body]

Summarization

Toro:
I dislike the way Toro hopped on Cain right in the beginning. He continues to push this idea in his (relatively) rare posts. Going for an easy lynch? I really disliked his post 179, he asks for town approval, claims Cain is going for the easy lynch while Toro himself is pushing a noob-lynch. Switches his vote to Saber over little to me, both Zazie had some reasons for voting Saber, Toro had nothing except a 'bad feeling.' I don't like how Toro tries to make something out of the people not on Zazie's huge list, he's trying to make something out of nothing here. Not sure what to make of the buddying between him and Saber. As soon as DTM votes Cain he's quite willing to jump back on the easy wagon, dislike. Later he has to be called out to post his own thoughts before someone elses, I really don't like that.

Nik:
Out of the original spat, I thought he came out scummiest, but only slightly. Since then he has been active(?) but I realized when I was writing this that I've gone an incredibly long period of time without making a note here. He sure held out a long time before making another post and I don't really felt like he made a good catch-up post considering he said he was re-reading like 4 pages. Nik scored some town-points with me concerning peace on page 18, even though Toro also raised a valid point against him.

DTM:
Didn't like his defense of Mastin, if has or him flips scum IGMEO the other one. They did a pretty good job distancing over that issue if that was their plan. 122 AtE, dislike. I also dislike how he clears sabre in 130. Moving on to a bit later in the game, I like that he calls out kill-kill along with Scott. I thought it was worth noting that only after Scott mentioned that Hohum had been MIA for a while that DTM made a similar remark. Joins the attack on Scott, I think he makes some valid points here, I wonder if we caught some scum hammering at each other with saber and peace.

Icanhascow?:
It was nice to see some activity out of that slot, I would've liked to see some defense other then 'just unvote me' but I don't see any defense against Mastin policy votes if you aren't Mastin.... He definitely keeps the pressure up on saber which I like and I agree with his wishy-washy statement about DTM, but I disagree with the reasons for voting Saber. I'm curious why he stayed completely away from the cain/peace discussion and only reappears when someone mentions saber again. He appears again to vote Hohum, but I honestly smelt lurking since he posted almost nothing for the last three pages. Has is correct about ongoing games.

Cain/peace: Cain was worse then useless, nuff said. I think his first vote was helpful at least and the rest was noobishness tbh. As soon as peace replaces in he immediately switches to the other bw, maybe it's self-preservation but I really don't like it. He immediately switches to Scott, better read after he drops the bw vote for some original scum-hunting. I was a bit confused why he didn't do a run-down of everyone, especially since he said he was reading the game in advance. He goes on the attack against Scott, but I felt like his attacks were a weak attempt at best.

Scott: Pops in every now and again with debatably useful posts. I lean more towards his posts being more useful then not, I see the points that he isn't scum-hunting super actively but he is a bar above many others. I like how he keeps the pressure on lumi to keep her posting and that he still kept on track with others that were lurking as well. Once cain is replaced my opinion goes downhill, I don't like why he went after peace and his sudden switch to saber was odd.

Zazie: His first scum list was really useless, with over half the players listed with no particular comments to explain why this was pretty useless. I understand his reasons for voting Saber, but I don't agree with all of them. I think that he was genuinely trying to prevent tunneling rather then stifling discussion. Zazie's walls promote scum-hunting, they're just a pain in the ass to read, so I don't understand saber's policy complaints here.

Kill-kill: Said he thought Cain was inexperienced, didn't really understand how this meshed with his later posts. Woah, another Kill-kill post like 6 pages later, seriously this is a lurker popping in to push the easy lynch on a newb, dislike. The argument he makes toward cain is pretty weak, he's like well I'm voting him because I think he's noob scum what makes you think he isn't? That isn't the way it works, if you're voting you need to justify it, we aren't supposed to justify not voting him to you. He likes Cow arbitrating an argument, so shouldn't he like saber for the same thing? He says Saber is the easy target, but no one is an easier target then the noob that isn't posting.

Saber: I liked how he kept the first page(s) from becoming a bloodbath and I felt that he handled himself well against Zazie's accusations. His OMGUS vote of Zazie however wasn't the greatest, even if he did point out a few things I agree with. Saber also tries to make something out of Zazie's list, Zazie could be misdirecting us to nik or w/e, it just isn't conclusive. Didn't understand how he got an FoS on nik out of his post about lurkers. AtE in 273, bleh. Don't like the fact he even mentioned considering ruining the game because he was mad that he was getting lynched, that's just shitty. Don't understand why he thinks Nik is so scummy in his analysis. Not sure how I feel about the peace vote, still don't get his nik suspicions, he raises some valid points about the catch up post but nothing that is incredibly anti-town. Saber is the second to jump on Hohum, picks up a few scum points here.


Scummy: Hohum, Saber, Kill-Kill, Peace, Toro
Neutral: Hascow, DTM, Nik
Town: Zazie, Scott
No read: ThAdmiral

[Shotty to the Body]

This whole discussion about Zazie's post style doesn't affect his alignment in this game. Zazie does that in all his games. Whether the style itself may be inherently more useful to a scum-player that has no relevance to his alignment now. Any attempt at using his poststyle as a scum-tell is scummy in itself. Since he clearly does it all the time trying to persuade him to change his style is a waste of our time so let's get our focus back on the game.

Vote Hohum

After double checking Icanhascow is correct about him.

[Shotty to the Body]

This whole discussion about Zazie's post style doesn't affect his alignment in this game. Zazie does that in all his games. Whether the style itself may be inherently more useful to a scum-player that has no relevance to his alignment now. Any attempt at using his poststyle as a scum-tell is scummy in itself. Since he clearly does it all the time trying to persuade him to change his style is a waste of our time so let's get our focus back on the game.

Vote Hohum

After double checking Icanhascow is correct about him.

You vote hohum but didn't mention him in your Summarization post. Why is that?

I read the first few pages but skipped them when I did the summary and he hasn't posted anything up until he was called out for lurking and I'd already addressed that in another post. I double-checked to be sure I wasn't being led astray by scum and I was ready to vote once I'd confirmed he was lying.

[Shotty to the Body]

This whole discussion about Zazie's post style doesn't affect his alignment in this game. Zazie does that in all his games. Whether the style itself may be inherently more useful to a scum-player that has no relevance to his alignment now. Any attempt at using his poststyle as a scum-tell is scummy in itself. Since he clearly does it all the time trying to persuade him to change his style is a waste of our time so let's get our focus back on the game.

Missing the point. I have told zazier to stop because he's being distracting. If he now keeps posting like this, it

will

be scummy.

I don't see how we can command him to post a certain way, I don't really have a problem perusing his posts. It takes some effort but he puts links in all of them so it's fairly clear.

[Shotty to the Body]

DTMaster: I said if it was the real seer it would suck, but it would be in a VT's best interests as well as towns for a fake claim. Werewolves most likely wouldn't claim seer or they'd get NKed, but would claim VT, and mafia are free to claim seer. Therefore if Hohum claims, depending on what he claims, it for the most part based on odds is best for town. He could simply claim VT, but I don't think that would make us change our vote.

This is incorrect. Werewolves have nothing to fear in claiming seer because they are the ones doing the NKing. Mafia would never fake-claim seer because they're avoiding the werewolves like the plague and don't want to get involved in any seer-werewolf duel.

[Shotty to the Body]

I think the point of his question was that it was rhetorical, we have a deadline in 4 days however and I don't see another reasonable lynch unless you can convince me on a peace lynch that fast. The whole ridiculous thing with saberwolf is scummy, especially since were about to lynch hohum and he's throwing threats around like he knows hohum is town.

[Shotty to the Body]

I think Hohum is more scummy. If he was just a lurker he could've said he was busy or whatever and then contributed or at least gone V/LA or asked for replacement, but he lied about his activity in other games and then vanished again.

[Shotty to the Body]

I think the point of his question was that it was rhetorical, we have a deadline in 4 days however and I don't see another reasonable lynch unless you can convince me on a peace lynch that fast. The whole ridiculous thing with saberwolf is scummy, especially since were about to lynch hohum and

he's throwing threats around like he knows hohum is town.

This is a good point, but he wouldn't know he was town, just not of his faction.

That's a good point, I didn't think of it that way.

[Shotty to the Body]

DTM you said you were leaning towards a peace or saber lynch for more information or a hohum lynch because of his lying. How the blazes did you come up with a kill-kill vote? If you thought his ISO was so scummy why didn't you even mention kill-kill with peace and saber when you were talking about potential lynches with nik. It's a nice coincident that you only mention this and vote him when he comes out against you.

[Shotty to the Body]

I'm re-reading, I won't let no lynch happen.

[Shotty to the Body]

I'm sitting on my hands until 4, I would much rather lynch Hohum then saber. Saber's play is conflicting while Hohum's play has been consistently. Also hohum throwing himself on the saber bandwagon just shows that he's looking for an easy lynch that isn't him. I'll be around until 4 to make sure there isn't a NL but I still support a hohum lynch over a saber lynch.

[Shotty to the Body]

EBWOP, the second sentence should read "... Hohum's play has been consistently scummy."

[Shotty to the Body]

Bah, don't think this is the right lynch but the town seems to think otherwise.

vote saberwolf

[Shotty to the Body]

Vote Hohum

[Shotty to the Body]

Vote Hohum

Any real reason for this vote Shotty?

Pretty sure I elaborated on this plenty yesterday. Considering Hohum didn't get lynched that means at least one faction wasn't pushing him. It would've been an easy kill of a townie, so someone(s) with role knowledge didn't want him dead.

[Shotty to the Body]

Most likely mafia since they're bigger.

[Shotty to the Body]

Considering Hohum didn't get lynched that means at least one faction wasn't pushing him. It would've been an easy kill of a townie, so someone(s) with role knowledge didn't want him dead.

I think your logic is flawed here, Shotty. It would be pretty easy for scum to blend in with the town by bussing their partner under Lynch all Liars/Lurkers if they thought he was going to be lynched. In that case, if he does flip scum, I'd look at the players who voted hohum without much reasoning. i.e. Toro and Scott.
Also, why did you assume it would be an easy kill of a 'townie,' specifically?

I need to look into DTM's iso for interactions with Zazie and saber; I might be able to find something there. Right now, I think that answering Zazie's questions after he died was decidedly pro-town (unless he thought he couldn't get away with not answering them, which I doubt), but I want to look into his reasoning behind defending saber.

Why bus when Saber gave them an easy lynch? There aren't any PRs besides seer and he wouldnt've dropped tells on D1 so I just used townie.

[Shotty to the Body]

I'm rereading DTM and Toro in iso, but I'd rather not let Hohum get away again.

[Shotty to the Body]

Don't be so hasty, stuff like that is a null-tell at best. Why so interested in clearing peace?

[Shotty to the Body]

Great Hohum, so would you like to contribute? Oh, happy scumday Admiral, I guess agree to disagree will have to do on this point.

[Shotty to the Body]

Why would you ever not claim at L-1?

The only claim he can make is VT which is a pointless one.

[Shotty to the Body]

The only claim he can make is VT which is a pointless one.

How do you know he isn't Seer?

Even if he is claiming that is suicide.

[Shotty to the Body]

Unvote

I'm not as happy with this as I thought and we have plenty of time to deadline.

[Shotty to the Body]

guys, we either need to lynch hohum or figure out what else we're doing today.

Are you in support of that lynch? You haven't said much and aren't voting.

[Shotty to the Body]

guys, we either need to lynch hohum or figure out what else we're doing today.

Are you in support of that lynch? You haven't said much and aren't voting.

Really? I thought I was pretty clear yesterday about this.

Then why aren't, or why weren't you at the time, on the Hohum wagon?

[Shotty to the Body]

Probably one of the most useless players I've seen so far.

[Shotty to the Body]

I don't see how that unvote is scummy, we were weeks from deadline on a wagon that was clearly loaded with scum because it was such an easy lynch, all we knew was that his activity was terrible and he didn't want to play the game. I didn't want to lose two more (potential) townies when the D2 discussion had barely begun. I told you I thought he was scum at the end of D1, I simply unvoted because we were quick-lynching a lurker. No one was going to try to save Hohum, he was a useless liability so I wanted to give it some play before we killed him.

[Shotty to the Body]

Hahaha, I'm pretty sure Scott is mafia.
@Scott: Shotty's unvote of hohum is not scummy. If Shotty had not unvoted, hohum would most likely have self-hammered then and there, which would have been much more beneficial for scum than for town.
I agree with Cow that lynching our mafia suspects is the right way to go for now. We still have a seer that can out the last wolf, remember.
Also, now that we are down to one wolf, the seer should claim as soon as he gets a guilty. That way we can kill the last wolf as well as have a confirmed townie that cannot be killed.

What makes you say that Scott is Mafia Nik?

He's trying to go after an easy target saying my unvote is scummy when it really isn't, for one. Also he really wants to focus on the werewolves, makes him sound like mafia which will probably win for sure with a full team and both wolves down. I'll have to reread to verify but I'm pretty sure someone else posted on Scott yesterday.

[Shotty to the Body]

If we mislynch and the werewolf kills off a town member, mafia wins right? Just seeing if you know this.

No, since mafia can't kill, we still have a chance in a 2v3v1 game. So long as we commit to a no-lynch (the wolf would have to agree with us here, since it is his best chance of staying alive), if the wolf kills mafia, it'll be 2v2v1, then if we lynch mafia and the wolf kills mafia, it's down to 2v1. After that, we lynch the wolf, and town wins.
It's a long shot, but the possibility is there.

True but why does the Wolf want to help us win again?

[Shotty to the Body]

I'll be catching up tomorrow, I had a really long day.

[Shotty to the Body]

Rereading Toro here's some stuff.

Toro focused on Cain for the entire beginning of D1. He claims that we've caught noob-scum because Cain put Mastin at L-3 during RVS. That's how you leave RVS, it makes no sense to call him scum just for that vote. Cain never really contributed, but he didn't come off as particularly scummy, just noobish. As soon as he found a reason he voted Saber for some flimsy reason and then backed it up by saying Zazie was right, but he never gave quotes or said what he agreed with just called Saber scum and voted him. He jumps back to the Cain wagon when Cain shows back up and then is forced to get off again as peace replaces him. He goes right on to vote Saber again, not really saying anything original just some crappy back and forth with saber that didn't really accomplish much. Kill-kill also suspects him at this point, but not enough to make a big deal out of it and guess who winds up dead on N2? Moving on, switches over to the Hohum wagon along with most of the town, this would lead me to suspect him of being Mafia rather then Wolf. He mutters some nonsense about how Scott and Saber are conspiring to prevent Seer-Hohum from defending himself, his argument doesn't make any sense since claimed seer is just dead meat. Questions me for voting Hohum off the bat on D2 even though I explained it on D1 and he does the same thing 3 ISO posts later with no reasons. Now he's riding on the Scott wagon that was created, he pretty much bandwagoned easy targets with every vote, so I agree with Scott here. Then he votes Nik because he isn't telling us his revelation, which is annoying, but not voteworthy at this point imo which turns out to be a gambit that toro fell into. Now he's staying on Nik for pretty much OMGUS reasons while being incredibly overdefensive and like "OMG WHEN I FLIP TOWN YOU'LL REGRET IT!!!1!1one!" If you needed reasons to vote him here they are.

Vote: Toro

This was very stream of consciousness writing so feel free to ask for clarification or post numbers for any points you aren't clear on.

[Shotty to the Body]

Can we focus? I want opinions on Toro and an explanation of why you think either Nik or peace is more scummy then him at this point in time. What do you think of Toro Cow?

[Shotty to the Body]

@Nik

I'm still getting mildly bad vibes coming from this attack on Toro. Even with your "gambit" the 912,913,914 reads as someone obvious to mafia role. It might be bias based on Internal Mafia though.

In a way your little gambit can be considered a deflection away from the Scott wagon with some distancing mixed into it. It's faint in subtext, but it's there and might warrant a reread.

What? How is discussing our Wincon scummy, can you go over that again? DTM is running cover for Toro here.

IF YOU HAVENT ADDRESSED WHAT I POSTED IN 973 DO SO NOW AND THEN TELL US WHO YOU THINK IS SCUMMIEST AND WHY

[Shotty to the Body]

Why are you rushing this step for my answer Nik?

Oh, I missed where you had said you were writing more. I tend to skim your posts, as I will hang myself if I dwell on your posts for too long. Oh, English language, how DTM butchers you!

I lold, sure thing, take whatever time you need to finish your post, but try and make it expedient DTM.

[Shotty to the Body]

Still haven't seen any reasons not to lynch Toro, chiming in to let you know I'm here.

[Shotty to the Body]

Why is the Cow lurking through this game?

I have some thoughts on this, but I'd rather not deflect off of Toro right now.

[Shotty to the Body]

My gut says werewolf, but I haven't done a whole lot of factfinding to back that up yet.

[Shotty to the Body]

Cow who do you feel is scummy? You haven't placed a vote since you unvoted hohum D1 (as far as I remember).

I haven't? well how about that, I could've sworn I'd voted. Let's rectify that situation, shall we.

vote: peacesells

A lot of this is gut, but I've had a bad feeling from pretty much the very beginning, based on the way the game has gone. He's seemed a bit too jumpy.

How can you vote based on "gut" considering the enormous amount of evidence presented against Toro, what do you think of the posts that have been made about him? Do you still think he's just a VI, I can't really see how that remains true.

[Shotty to the Body]

A lot of this is gut, but I've had a bad feeling from pretty much the very beginning, based on the way the game has gone. He's seemed a bit too jumpy.

explain jumpy?

what could jumpy possibly mean, peace? It's not that difficult.

Cow who do you feel is scummy? You haven't placed a vote since you unvoted hohum D1 (as far as I remember).

I haven't? well how about that, I could've sworn I'd voted. Let's rectify that situation, shall we.

vote: peacesells

A lot of this is gut, but I've had a bad feeling from pretty much the very beginning, based on the way the game has gone. He's seemed a bit too jumpy.

How can you vote based on "gut" considering the enormous amount of evidence presented against Toro, what do you think of the posts that have been made about him? Do you still think he's just a VI, I can't really see how that remains true.

That's also gut. Maybe my gut is just completely off, but something feels wrong in this lynch. It's like it's too easy, which I don't like at all with 4 scum still out there.

This lynch is far too DIFFICULT for Toro not to be scum, look at how long we've been sitting at L-1 and the votes that have been shifted around.

[Shotty to the Body]

@Shotty

Do you believe Peace is town then?

Doesn't matter at this point, I see the case for him being linked to Toro and Toro is the proper lynch right now. We can work on Peace's alignment from there.

[Shotty to the Body]

By pointing out flaws in his logic. Pointing out where you have issues. It doesn't matter if he responds with "nope, lynch'em anyway." cause those responses well be telling us something if you flip innocent.

The whole argument he used against me in the first place is a flaw in his logic!

Try refuting some of my points, they have nothing to do with Nik's "trap."

[Shotty to the Body]

A lot of this is gut, but I've had a bad feeling from pretty much the very beginning, based on the way the game has gone. He's seemed a bit too jumpy.

explain jumpy?

what could jumpy possibly mean, peace? It's not that difficult.

Cow who do you feel is scummy? You haven't placed a vote since you unvoted hohum D1 (as far as I remember).

I haven't? well how about that, I could've sworn I'd voted. Let's rectify that situation, shall we.

vote: peacesells

A lot of this is gut, but I've had a bad feeling from pretty much the very beginning, based on the way the game has gone. He's seemed a bit too jumpy.

How can you vote based on "gut" considering the enormous amount of evidence presented against Toro, what do you think of the posts that have been made about him? Do you still think he's just a VI, I can't really see how that remains true.

That's also gut. Maybe my gut is just completely off, but something feels wrong in this lynch. It's like it's too easy, which I don't like at all with 4 scum still out there.

This lynch is far too DIFFICULT for Toro not to be scum, look at how long we've been sitting at L-1 and the votes that have been shifted around.

That's not really what I mean. What I'm talking about is how much suspicion got thrown on him immediately upon day starting. Just felt wrong to me. I understand we've been stuck here at L-1 for a while, but I feel that's a null-tell.

Uhh what? I'm pretty sure we started the day attacking Scott, nice to know you're paying attention though.

[Shotty to the Body]

I don't care if he is, talking about werewolves isn't to town advantage. We need to lynch mafia to improve our chances, not the last wolf. If we go into a standard nightless with 3 mafia alive we're not going to be very happy.

[Shotty to the Body]

I don't care if he is, talking about werewolves isn't to town advantage. We need to lynch mafia to improve our chances, not the last wolf. If we go into a standard nightless with 3 mafia alive we're not going to be very happy.

It is because if he is the Wolf then his lynch motives/discussion have to be suspect.

Why? The wolf has as much reason to lynch Mafia as anyone else, I don't see how this is relevant at all.

[Shotty to the Body]

This is exactly why I didn't want to start talking about werewolves, Peace is blowing smoke out of his ass about Nik to fog up the issue on Toro. Look at Scott's last post, Peace makes no sense he's just posting as much bullshit as he can to distract us.

[Shotty to the Body]

This is exactly why I didn't want to start talking about werewolves, Peace is blowing smoke out of his ass about Nik to fog up the issue on Toro. Look at Scott's last post, Peace makes no sense he's just posting as much bullshit as he can to distract us.

How does scum hunting others fog the issue on Toro. Not looking at all cases is called Tunneling.

You guys sure like to use arguments like "bullshit" and "Blowing smoke out your ass" etc....those aren't arguments. Those are blatant scum actions trying to discredit others.

Everyone in this game should be cased..including Toro.

Shotty? Why do you want him lynched with two weeks to go on the deadline? Are we not in a precarious position now? What is the scenario if he flips town?

Why does it matter if it's two weeks or two hours at this point? If anyone wants to post something they've had plenty of opportunity at this point and twilight will give them another. We've been in a precarious position for a while now since we mislynched and wolves killed a townie, I don't see why that prevents us from taking a decisive action. If he flips town (which I highly doubt) then our odds are 50/50 of the werewolf striking scum if he aimed blindly and far greater considering we have 40 some pages to look at. Worst case we get fucked, but that'll be two lynches in a mini-open so we pretty much deserve it at that point. What would you do if Nikanor flipped town? You'd be in the same spot so you haven't really scored any points there. Let's analyze the scenarios if we're right. If Toro dies and is mafia, our game becomes a bit more random as it is subjected to the wolves whims and/or mistakes. If we lynch Nikanor and he is a werewolf, we got into 4-3 nightless except scum get to make a game plan each night and one misplaced townie vote loses the game. I actually don't mind that as much with the info we have to draw on, so I apologize for fixating. How sure are you on Nik though? Your case mostly consists of him not wanting to lynch lurkers and trying to get an active replacement for Hohum, I recall most of us bitching about Hohum not posting at some point or another. I think my case on Toro is much more solid especially since all he does is lurk and avoid my points now.

[Shotty to the Body]

I wasn't sure about Hohum, I'm much more confident in this lynch and I don't know if we're getting drawn off-track here or not.

[Shotty to the Body]

I wasn't sure about Hohum, I'm much more confident in this lynch and I don't know if we're getting drawn off-track here or not.

Shotty..odds are, the Toro lynch is going to happen at some point. I base this on the pretty uninterested play on many here. Someone is gonna say "ah f* it" and hammer.

If you believe Toro is scum...why not spend this time hunting his partners as well?

I prefer to take things one step at a time, when you try to post some sweeping lynch plan you can lose a perfectly good lynch through some flaw in the other and on the whole it distracts from the point at hand, there'll be plenty of time for hunting tomorrow once we have Toro's alignment.

[Shotty to the Body]

If toro is town AND the wolf kills town, if he isn't and the wolf kills town we are in the same position with less players so we didn't really lose anything. 4-3-1 (T/M/W) vs. 3-2-1 (T/M/W).

[Shotty to the Body]

As of today I'm open to any anti-town faction lynch, that being said

Vote Nik

. I believe the case Peace posted yesterday has some merit. I played in another game with Nik here where we had a very similar problem and he spammed the same sort of stuff on his scumbuddy because he was inactive, but never pushed for the lurker lynch. Also his posts about peace are scummy in retrospect.

[Shotty to the Body]

Rereading...

[Shotty to the Body]

I'm happy with my current vote, but the Cow wagon also has many good points. Thanks Nik, scum crossing each other rocks.

[Shotty to the Body]

[quote="DTM]@Shotty
What do you mean scum-crossing each other rocks? :S

If we do a NK analysis it looks like wolf is trying to kill mafia but ends up hitting townies (which is the optimal play I outlined before to get Wolf to win I guess). I raise the issue of the double edge sword here. Scum didn't cross kill each other yet. If anything only thing that caught scum is lynching in this game.[/quote]
Cross-hunting in the case, I'm okay with either lynch at this point, the case on Has is pretty good as I mentioned before.

[Shotty to the Body]

1. There is a small issue with your obv. distancing theory. Your idea is extremely sub optimal play considering it was day 2 when Hohum was lynched. With a seer running around it becomes a gamble at that point.

What? If people see you as less likely to be a wolf, the seer will be less likely to inspect you. How does that become a gamble?

@Shotty: Please do some actual scumhunting. Thanks.

Good defense, attack the player not the argument huh?

[Shotty to the Body]

Let's see we have ISO 51, 56, 67, 71, 72, 77, 78, 95, 98, 99, 100, 101, 102, 104.

After that Hohum was dead and the first many of your ISO posts were when Hohum was still active. Everyone of those posts your either defending Hohum or calling for prods or activity from him, pretty damning, your obliged btw.

[Shotty to the Body]

I linked it in the original post but have at it again. here

[Shotty to the Body]

In that game we have ISOs 52, 61, 67, and 69. Note you replaced in late and you didn't have an inactive partner for as long as Hohum was so the numbers aren't as high, but the correlation is there and despite you saying that "townies aren't always right" you still haven't refuted the points peace listed besides telling us the werewolf is our friend which he clearly isn't now that we've found one, probably two mafia, the wolf's usefulness has expired and we should lynch him to preserve town numbers, we can lynch Cow the next day and not lose an extra townie over it.

[Shotty to the Body]

Bah should've gone with my gut on that one, my bad Nik,

Unvote

.

[Shotty to the Body]

I need to reread the first couple days before I get back to you Scott, btw Admiral what made you think I was the Seer?

[Shotty to the Body]

Lazy sorry, I'm catching up.

[Shotty to the Body]

DTM, Nik, THA After a reread, I'm not really that sure though Ill reread again.

[Shotty to the Body]

Vote DTM

[Shotty to the Body]

LOL NT, not even going to post any reasons to support that THA? I'll be back later to post a case, but a reread should refresh everyone and make the obvious clear here.

[Shotty to the Body]

THA PBPA

Post 0: Asks if it’s okay to skip the first 4 pages of material.
Post 1: Internet problems
Post 2: More internet problems
Post 3: Internet is back
Post 4: Promises post
Post 5: Concludes no suspicious activity out of first 4 pages, but then calls DTM cautious scum, attacks Saberwolf for criticism of Zazie
Post 6: @page 11 Saberwolf is scum to him, though he puts saberwolf 4th on his list after a reread, votes toro for ‘a few bad wagon jumps’
Post 7: Disagrees with has about Zazie’s play
Post 8: More useless blather about Zazie’s spam
Post 9: Claims the mafia should fear the seer more than the wolves. Makes one of those little pro-town buzz-phrases about the seer claiming or not.
Post 10: Corrects post 9 about investigation, asks hohum for posts
Post 11: Asks peace if his attacks are a gambit
Post 12: Says my point about toro is good
Post 13: Admits to not scum-hunting, votes Scott
Post 14: Buddying Saber to get Scott votes
Post 15: Asks toro and zazie for scott votes, no reasoning given
Post 16: Uses zazie’s scum list to vote hohum, says saber also had him as scum. So did everyone else at the time because of his lurking. Plays the confirmed pro-towner must be right idea.
Post 17: Says he’s willing to look at players besides scott
Post 18: Confirms peacesells as town out of the blue over a nothing post. Says bussing doesn’t happen very much and that he is sure hohum is scum
Post 19: No real response to being called out on clearing peace
Post 20: Says he will post soon
Post 21: Agrees with has about scott selective hunting, asks for werewolf to claim
Post 22: “i like vote: toro”
Post 23: Explains away his bandwagoning
Post 24: Agrees with scott that peace is bussing toro
Post 25: Asks why cow thinks toro is VI
Post 26: Fluff
Post 27: Says toro isn’t a VI
Post 28: Asks toro who is scum
Post 29: Accuses peace of being toro’s partner
Post 30: Says he will look through vote history
Post 31: Asks for a replacement for another game
Post 32: Accusses DTM and Scott of being scum, both confirmed townies
Post 33: Adds has to his list, note no mention at all here of nik as even blipping his radar
Post 34: Concludes scott must be scum via gut but would rather lynch has
Post 35: Feels out town opinion on lynching has or not, asks me if I’m the seer
Post 36: Now Nik is suddenly in the picture as scum
Post 37: Reiterates suspects
Post 38: Votes DTM
Post 39: Calls for mine and has’ vote on DTM
Post 40: Distancing from DTM lynch, calls me scum with no reasoning, votes has

Reread him yourself and try to find scum-hunting, the only thing he ever did was comment on other people's cases and try to draw conclusions without posting much evidence.

[Shotty to the Body]

Zzzzz....

[Shotty to the Body]

Considering he doesn't even have a counterargument.... Why is Admiral voting Toro like that stupid and obvious? That's WIFOM, I hunted out Toro and except for the last day (where I was incredibly busy IRL and had a lackluster performance) have been leading the charge. Look at THA, his only contribution was his vote analysis where he concluded two townies were the remaining scum, only after you claimed did he change that opinion. Almost* (I didn't actually look this up to be sure but I wanted to say all here) everyone else had at LEAST a scum in their top two.

[Shotty to the Body]

Right... and let you walk away with the win? You're funny. Anything else to say before I hammer you?

[Shotty to the Body]

And you would just choose to forego the win if we lynched correctly, even though we could lynch you the next day? Both those scenarios end with you making up half the town and fulfilling your win condition unless we count on your good-will, so no I won't agree with that. Besides, I don't see anywhere in the rules where it says opposing factions are allowed to just agree to win together.

[Shotty to the Body]

Vote hasdgfas

[Shotty to the Body]

I'll yell at him tomorrow.

[Shotty to the Body]

hasdgfas false messiah becomes mod? =P

[Shotty to the Body]

Prod ThA please

Vote THA

If he has anything to say he should come do it, otherwise the evidence is pretty clear.

[Shotty to the Body]

Bump? Honestly guys....

[Shotty to the Body]

Seriously, you're going to try to use the three posts of people I replaced as evidence? That's desperate, bro. I told you the whole way saber was the wrong lynch, I ARGUED AGAINST IT but if I had no lynched where would we have been without his flip? Nothing anti-town there.

Your post for voting Toro was 4 fucking words, mine was post upon post of PARAGRAPHS of analysis. I did independent ISO reads and analysis, you jumped on right after Nik's so-called gambit which was obviously set-up the night before and you follow right onto Toro's wagon because of it! IT'S SO TRANSPARENT! Also look at Toro's 950 952 953 while I'm reading it, distancing from his two partners.

Where did I say I'm suspicious of you for the DTM votes? Paranoid much? Provide post numbers please. I purposefully didn't bring it up because we both made the relatively same play and yet he claims I'm using it in my case and calling me a hypocrite! Way to misrep something I didn't even SAY.

Yes, it is always pro-town to be voting even though you just said I shouldn't have voted D1 to kill Saber because I didn't think he was scum. Who's the hypocrite now?

His points contradict each other, FFS. Lynch obv scum now please. He can't pull a single shred linking me to the other scum out of his ass, he can't criticize my play because my scum-hunting is 100x his, the only thing he can do is nitpick minor nothings, misrep things I don't even say just to throw hypocrite into his post, and stall.

[Shotty to the Body]

"LoL I won't hold you accountable for those words but I will anyways because I have no more evidence." That's the translation. Got anymore original evidence? The back and forth means much less at this point.

Really? Please point out the posts where you outline why Toro was scummy BEFORE you set-up his bus on N2. Oh wait, there aren't any. Does me bringing it up now change the scuminess? If you really want to know it's because without Nik's scum-flip I couldn't be sure it was a set-up.

Three points of my PBPA

MENTION

DTM yes, but I never said that was why you were scummy.

Considering he doesn't even have a counterargument.... Why is Admiral voting Toro like that stupid and obvious? That's WIFOM, I hunted out Toro and except for the last day (where I was incredibly busy IRL and had a lackluster performance) have been leading the charge. Look at THA, his only contribution was his vote analysis where he concluded two townies were the remaining scum, only after you claimed did he change that opinion. Almost* (I didn't actually look this up to be sure but I wanted to say all here) everyone else had at LEAST a scum in their top two.

Where do I call you scum on suspicion of DTM? I call you scum here because you do NO SCUMHUNTING AT ALL. Your only contribution are these vote patterns which you supposedly 'analyze', but all you do is copy paste lynch page vote counts and then call me scum. IioA (Information instead of Analysis for the uninitiated) is a HUGE scum-tell because he can't actually scum-hunt, just summarize.

Here's my veritable conundrum: Vote to help the town, not to LOOK pro-town. I have no problem hammering Saber D1 even though I'm 70-80% sure he isn't scum at the time because I KNOW it would be worse to let a no-lynch happen. Deadline lynches do happen and the scum would love to let it no-lynch, no-lynch is superior to a mislynch D1 because it gives the town no information. Also scum love to try to use that so-called scum hammer as evidence in terrible cases. Any pro-town player would hammer there, so how can you use that as evidence?

[Shotty to the Body]

No, it doesn't mention day-talk in their role PM. They did however had plenty of opportunity to talk about that 'gambit' Nik used during night, considering both of them are scum it is very contrived and it let Nik and THA both of whom barely mentioned Toro hop on his wagon.

[Shotty to the Body]

Thank you, town win.

[Shotty to the Body]

@ has: definitely not one of your best games, although I didn't think you were outright bad. It wasn't one of my best games either, though, now that we're on the subject.

It is intriguing to me, however, that werewolves/sk/other non-town killing roles so often will turn themselves in when it looks like their time is up and agree to follow the towns wishes rather than trying to protest their innocence/dying without helping town. I know I've done it. It seems given the choice we would always rather help town than scum, which I guess indicates we are all good guys at heart!

Agreeing to help town is the only way to play it if you're going to attempt to pull out a win because otherwise you get lynched. =P

[Shotty to the Body]

He was too reluctant to lynch Hohum even though he said he was in favor of it, dead giveaway.

[Shotty to the Body]

He could've forced 1/1/1 with the right lynch pattern or won outright if we hadn't lynched him the day before. Those odds are better than trying to fake-claim Seer imo.