Mini 955 - Classic Mafia - Over

[Wickedestjr]

/confirm

Many people I've never played with before. Should be fun.

[Wickedestjr]

Has anybody figured out who the scum are yet? ... Because I have. Anybody want to take a guess?

[Wickedestjr]

@TheCheshireCat & Exilon - You're not interested in knowing who's scum?

[Wickedestjr]

So... nobody wants to guess who's scum? It seems like some players are mostly just anxious for me to say who they are so they can avoid taking a stance on anything until RVS is over. What is the harm in giving some thoughts on the game?

Exilon, what makes you think I'm scum? Is your suspicion of me a serious one?

TCC, are you scum?

[Wickedestjr]

Wicked

Only a single class of people now who is scum and who isn't at this point of the game.

Scum.

So please, tell us who your buddies are.

You seem a bit too quick to eliminate the possibility of me being town. Is it not possible for a townie to figure out who's scum? Why do you automatically assume I'm scum?

Vote: Seacore

[Wickedestjr]

EBWOP: Also, Seacore if you think I'm scum then why not vote me?

[Wickedestjr]

Okay, as most people have already figured out, I wasn't serious when I said I knew who the scum were. Nobody seemed like they were trying to get us out of the RVS, so I thought I was going to have to do it myself. The intention was to get people to give their thoughts on the game and to see how people reacted to me saying I knew who the scum were. Nobody gave any thoughts on the game, but I got lots of useful reactions and probably more than I would've gotten if we had continued with RVS. Here are a few things I found interesting:

Wicked

Only a single class of people now who is scum and who isn't at this point of the game.

Scum.

So please, tell us who your buddies are.

What was the point of this comment if you didn't really think I was scum?

wicked is obviously joking.

That's interesting considering in your previous post you said:

So... nobody wants to guess who's scum?

I'm still waiting for you to tell us who the maf are, since you said you knew, and seemed to be anxious for us to ask you who they were.

If it was obvious I was joking, then why did you say you were waiting for me to say who the mafia were?


It also looks like Seacore is trying to avoid taking a stance on anything yet. In post 42 he says he doesn't think I'm scum but he thinks I'm an idiot. And in post 56 he says he doesn't think deer is scum, but unhelpful. And then in post 59 he brings up a point against Deer but still doesn't state his opinion of him, which makes me think he is trying to avoid having to take a stance.

[Wickedestjr]

Another post I don't like from Seacore is this one:

We were in RVS stage, ie, nothing was really happening. Then wicked posted his comment. I ignored it, as did most sensible people. So he attempted to get our attention again.
At this point in time I had three options.

1) Not post (anti-town)
2) Make some vague comment about somebody who double voted Jesus in RVS (who cares? 2 votes isn't a big deal, I often like to do it)
3) Post about the only non-RVS related statement that had been made.

I did so.

He thinks my post was the only non-RVS comment and he also thinks nothing was really happening when I made the comment, yet he chose to ignore the comment on purpose. What is the town motivation for doing this? Did you not want out of the RVS?

Wicked and Deer are both guilty of the same thing.

Whether jokingly or otherwise, they both implied they had gained information but decided to not share it with the rest of us. And that's not okay by me, so I am calling them both on it, as I will call anybody else who does the same.

Why do you have a problem with me jokingly implying that I had figured out who was scum? How could I have given my suspects if the original comment was a joke?

Why do you doubt your brother, Seacore? Perhaps he found hiphop's entrance too apologetic or esurio's joke vote too forced. You have insulted him and now twisted his words. What causes this hatred to burn in your heart?

QFT. It was not like I made the comment during the confirmation stage. Also, TLJ, I don't really understand your hiphop vote. Can you explain in more detail?


I'm not liking how Seacore makes such a big deal out of Deer using the word interesting, yet doesn't even vote or fos him or anything.

My main suspects at the moment are Seacore, podium, and TCC.

[Wickedestjr]

The very next line, after what you quoted of me, explains why i was waiting for you to say who the mafia are. Because when you make a joke like that, and then keep talking about it ("knock knock!"... "KNOCK KNOCK"), people will eventually go "who's there?".

The fact that you used that point as a FOS against me, yet didn't notice that the answer to your FOS question followed directly after the comment in question, makes me think you are just skimming through posts looking for any FOS you can quickly throw out without really thinking about it.

If it was obvious that I was joking in order to get us out of the RVS, then why did you ask for my suspicions? If you knew I was joking then I wouldn't be able to give them.

@Wicked. Just because I disagree with you, doesn't make you scummy. But I'm agreeing with Podium, some of your actions since have been scummy. I couldn't have worded it better than his knock knock comparison.

What was this directed? Also, I'm pretty sure this doesn't defend against everything in posts 86 and 87.

He's clearly been around and has added little that people haven't said before.

He's hiding a little behind his 'character' although I will grant that he has promised he won't do that 100%

Couldn't the point in bold be much better applied to Master Tang? At the time of this post TLJ had contributed a little bit, but Master Tang had contributed nothing.


Exilon, who are your suspects at the moment? Do you find podium and/or hiphop suspicious for accusing you of saying you will lurk?

TLJ, I understand your vote now. As for your Father's commandments, why is bandwagoning something that should not be done?

Master Tang's post 96 doesn't make any sense. Master Tang, can you please explain why you think TLJ was trying to get followers on the hiphop wagon and why you think he was trying to get hiphop lynched?

I dislike the point against TLJ that he is mafia hiding behind his character. His username is one that he obviously made prior to getting his role pm, so I think he made the account with the intention of pretending to be Jesus.


I am having guests over for a few days so I may not be online as much as I usually would be.

[Wickedestjr]

I am still catching up. Limited access + walls of text doesn't make a good combination.

Firstly, I think post 108 from Master Tang is a bit of an overreaction. I was simply saying that I didn't think it was scummy of TLJ to have contributed little when Master Tang had contributed much less. I wasn't attacking Master Tang, I was questioning Seacore. Also, I was saying that Master Tang hadn't contributed at all when Seacore said TLJ hadn't. Master Tang had given thoughts on TLJ after Seacore had said that, so I don't see why Master Tang is defending himself by explaining something that he said after Seacore made the post in question. It kind of looks like he isn't reading the thread very carefully.


@podium in post 111 - What kind of punchline were you expecting?


I have a strong town read on Exilon and podium is also beginning to look like town. I think podium needs to do more scumhunting because a large portion of his posting has been defending himself. TCC hasn't impressed me much and gut is telling me she's scum, but we seem to agree on a lot of things so I am unsure at the moment.

TCC, in post 113, I don't know if I interprated it correctly. Are you saying you are suspicious of hiphop?

[Wickedestjr]

Master Tang, what was the purpose of your vote for TLJ? You say that you had your vote on TLJ because he wasn't contributing enough. Why would you apply this point to him instead of... greendude or doomcow? Also, why unvote if TLJ never defended the points you brought up against him?

Seacore, please respond to the points I brought up against you.

[Wickedestjr]

@hiphop - Do you have a problem or find it suspicious at all that Exilon overreacted to your vote?

[Wickedestjr]

I'm sorry for my inactivity. Life has been very busy this last week. I'll try to catch up within 2 or 3 days.

[Wickedestjr]

Hi guys. I'm sorry for my inactivity. Still catching up. The conversations between podium and Exilon look like town vs. town. I can understand both sides of the conversation coming from a townie. TLJ's judgement is interesting. Anxious to see how he replies to the questions directed at him.

Could somebody please explain the reasons for voting SSBF?

Also, Seacore, please show me where you have responded to my points against you. If you haven't then please respond and explain why you have ignore them for so long.

@Mod

- I really want to keep playing this game, but I am going to have no computer access the next two days. This has been an unusually busy week, but I think I should have plenty of time in the following week. Is that allowable?

(No problem, V/LA noted. Thanks for letting me know. --AGM)

[Wickedestjr]

I'm back and I'm going to continue catching up.

[Wickedestjr]

Fine I'll drop the 'semantic' argument. It's useless now anyway, even if I have caught him up, enough of you have said it's just a semantic difference that he can just agree anyway.

Although I'll still clarify that "interesting" implies you have information
"null tell" shares with all of us that you have nothing.

@Wicked. Just because I disagree with you, doesn't make you scummy. But I'm agreeing with Podium, some of your actions since have been scummy. I couldn't have worded it better than his knock knock comparison.

I think Ex has made a very strong town post there.
I'd like to see this promised post by Green,

But I'm going to Unvote
Vote TLJ

He's clearly been around and has added little that people haven't said before. He's hiding a little behind his 'character' although I will grant that he has promised he won't do that 100%

I think it's time a significant bandwagon got started and I feel he's a decent candidate.

Seacore, is this the response to my posts that you are talking about? If so, then it doesn't respond to everything. I'm assuming it is, because it does respond to some things. I would still like a response to the following:

It also looks like Seacore is trying to avoid taking a stance on anything yet. In post 42 he says he doesn't think I'm scum but he thinks I'm an idiot. And in post 56 he says he doesn't think deer is scum, but unhelpful. And then in post 59 he brings up a point against Deer but still doesn't state his opinion of him, which makes me think he is trying to avoid having to take a stance.

We were in RVS stage, ie, nothing was really happening. Then wicked posted his comment. I ignored it, as did most sensible people. So he attempted to get our attention again.
At this point in time I had three options.

1) Not post (anti-town)
2) Make some vague comment about somebody who double voted Jesus in RVS (who cares? 2 votes isn't a big deal, I often like to do it)
3) Post about the only non-RVS related statement that had been made.

I did so.

He thinks my post was the only non-RVS comment and he also thinks nothing was really happening when I made the comment, yet he chose to ignore the comment on purpose. What is the town motivation for doing this? Did you not want out of the RVS?

Wicked and Deer are both guilty of the same thing.

Whether jokingly or otherwise, they both implied they had gained information but decided to not share it with the rest of us. And that's not okay by me, so I am calling them both on it, as I will call anybody else who does the same.

Why do you have a problem with me jokingly implying that I had figured out who was scum? How could I have given my suspects if the original comment was a joke?


I'm not liking how Seacore makes such a big deal out of Deer using the word interesting, yet doesn't even vote or fos him or anything.

[Wickedestjr]

Just read page 6. I apologize if this post restates things that were already stated and I also know that some of the things I point out will be directed at people that have already been replaced or are going to be replaced.


Post 125 from hiphop doesn't seem very helpful to me. Not really getting good vibes from him.

Esurio: You are full of questions, sister. The most important shall be addressed first. I have meditated on your words and you are correct: you cast the first stone at Master Tang. My error was likely born of the fact that I read the newest page first, and so remembered things in the wrong order. I can only apologize and rejoice that you are not as guity-seeming as it had first appeared. On the matter of barrenness of evidence, it was not your statements but the implications of your arguments that said as much. Surely if you doubt podium's ability to identify an ally, your faith in your own ability to find an adversary must be exaggerated.

The question remains whether hubris is in your character.

I'm curious about the bolded portion of this post. Why effect does it have on whether you suspect esurio or not?


Post 133 seems suspicious to me. Here is the post:

There is lots of walls of text and I am not really into the game yet. So, maybe when day 2 comes I will be more into it.

I feel like killing TLJ the atheist. His enigmatic words of 'wisdom' sould like a policitician going on and on about nothing. vote:thelordjesus

I really don't understand how the game is going. I've been reading through but I don't get what's happening. Who does wickedjst know is scum and why?

What mental problems does TLJ have?

And what stances do people have on certain people?

The first thing I find odd is that he is asking what stances people have on others when if he was actually reading the thread, I would think he would know this.

The second thing, which I find much more suspicious, is that in the first bolded portion he states reasons to find TLJ suspicious which seem to revolve around him pretending to be Jesus, but in the second boled portion, he asks what mental problems TLJ has which also seems to revolve around TLJ pretending to be Jesus. If TLJ's behavior is due to mental problems, then why does it mean he is scum? Doesn't seem consistent to me.


Super Smash Bros. Fan's first post seems very scummy to me. However, he seems to be an inexperienced player, and I know that inexperienced players appear scummy regardless of allignment. The main thing I have a problem with in post 143 is his comments regarding TLJ. Doesn't seem to be a genuine suspicion. The first example of this is here:

The Lord Jesus:

Nothing really scummy about him

, but he's just an really, really, annoying player. Now granted, this might be his gameplay, but it's really hindering him. He could have an town read by me, but the way he plays it really irks me, and

it brings him down to an null read for me.

He says at the beginning of post 143 that TLJ is one of his top suspects, so why does he say above that there is nothing really scummy about him and that he has a null read on him? Seacore points this out too in post 144 and in post 145 SSBF's response would be fine, apart from the fact that he claims to have a point against Greendude, yet thinks TLJ is more suspicious despite there being nothing suspicious about him. That doesn't make sense.

There is also this that I find suspicious:

I'm also not like GreenDude's vote on The Lord Jesus. Yes, The Lord Jesus posts can be really annoying to read, yes that post was halirious, but you shouldn't judge a vote just because you don't like their playstyle.

He doesn't like GreenDude voting TLJ despite GreenDude giving the exact same reasons as SSBF did to suspect TLJ. What's up?


@Seacore in post 144 - You think SSBF and GreenDude are buddies despite SSBF suspecting GreenDude?

[Wickedestjr]

@Mod

- Can you please delete post 245. It is the same as 244. Thanks!

(Done. --AGM)

[Wickedestjr]

Okay, SSBF needs to claim if he hasn't and somebody on that wagon should unvote. He has done some strange/suspicious things, but he isn't one of my top suspects at all. Only read a few posts from him, but he is looking town aside from his bad points.

[Wickedestjr]

EBWOP: Also not really liking the people on the wagon.

[Wickedestjr]

Deer is starting to look suspicious to me. I feel he is contributing very little.


@TLJ- Why do you feel the need to defend people? Do you think it is ever helpful for town and in what ways? Also do you think it is ever detrimental and in what ways?

Look guys (Cheshire, Seacore) just because TLJ has an irritating posting style doesn't make him scum and/or worthy of today's lynch. There's scummier people.

And yet you have only given one of your suspects.

[Wickedestjr]

Okay, on to your next point. Why did I choose to ignore the only non-RVS thing happening. Because I thought it was a dumb distraction. Turned out it was, and still is, a dumb distraction. Good call on that Seacore.

A distraction from what? The RVS? What if everybody had ignored it? Then we would have had a much longer RVS.

Next, why did I have a problem with you jokingly implying that you had knowledge? I didn't. I had a problem with you not shutting up about it. I waited until your third post on the topic before responding to it.

That's not what you said:

Wicked and Deer are both guilty of the same thing.

Whether jokingly or otherwise, they both implied they had gained information but decided to not share it with the rest of us. And that's not okay by me, so I am calling them both on it, as I will call anybody else who does the same.

I would still like a response to this post, but I'm not finding you as suspicious anymore.

Unvote.

In the meantime, I'm going to vote Deer until he provides a decent post.

Vote: Deer

.

I'm also still catching up, so I apologize if there are other things I still need to respond to that I haven't.

[Wickedestjr]

EBWOP: It looks like we are very close to deadline. I still don't like the idea of lynching SSBF. I'd prefer lynching Deer instead.

[Wickedestjr]

I have meditated upon Exilon on isolation. It is true, what esurio says about the oddity of his unvote, and there are some places where his tone is both nervous and appeasing. Such things were not reflected in the completed game that he offered us. This is enough that I have stricken his name from the Book of Life, but not enough that I have listed him as a suspect yet.

Exilon: Is something about this game intimidating to you?

What is your opinion of the allegation that Seacore has been jumping his vote around? Are you suspicious of hiphop? Thank you for your answers.

The bolded question seems like a bad one to me. TLJ, what was the purpose of the bolded question? Also, what kind of response were you looking for?

I'm still catching up.

[Wickedestjr]

I'm here.... Planning to post soon...

Mod:

I'm V/LA May 8th, and may not be able to post May 7th.

(Noted. --AGM)

[Wickedestjr]

My opinion on Seacore? I briefly addressed it on an earlier post, but I didn't really go into the jump-issue in detail. As for me, any player that jumps alot, even if for the "right reasons", tends to lose credibility. At some point, that credibility loss might become suspicion material; but as for Seacore, I believe it isn't much of a suspicious behaviour as it is playstyle, at least for now.

This doesn't really say anything. Ythill/TLJ, were you satisfied with this response?


Post 206 looks bad. TCC seems to show a strong suspicion of SSBF here, yet doesn't vote even though he was only at L-3 at the time of the post. She says she likes to be conservative with her votes, but her behavior strikes me as too conservative. IGMEO DiamondCrash.


Ythill, why did you decide to reveal yourself?


Deer - Still waiting for some contributing from him. It seems like he broke his promise.

[Wickedestjr]

Alright, I haven't caught up yet, but here are my thoughts so far on the remaining players:

RankStranger/hiphop - I had a gut feeling hiphop might be scum, mostly due to him not doing anything that seemed particularly townish plus his attack of Exilon, which looks bad. I haven't seen anything from RankStranger yet, but hiphop seemed scummy.

Exilon - Earlier I had a strong town read on him, and still think he's town, but his few posts after his podium unvote didn't give me the impression that he was looking for somebody else to vote. I am leaning town still though.

Seacore - Agressiveness I see as a town tell, but there were still the points that I brought up about him earlier that made him look suspicious to me. I'm having a lot of trouble getting a good read on him.

Ythill/The Lord Jesus - Ythill revealing himself has changed my impression of TLJ dramatically, as I didn't think TLJ was as experienced. I was having difficulty getting a read on TLJ before Ythill revealed himself, but now that I know Ythill = TLJ, I'm going to have to take another look at TLJ's posts.

Deer - He has contributed hardly anything. I asked him to contribute, he promised he would, but looking at his most recent posts, he seems to have broken his promise. I feel he was active lurking for nearly all of day 1.

DiamondCrash/TheCheshireCat - Gut was telling me TCC was scum yesterday. TCC uses a lot of emoticons which I find suspicious. She said she was conservative with her votes, and I think she only placed a random vote, and showed strong suspicion of a player but didn't vote them. How conservative with her votes is she? TCC is a strong suspect of mine at the moment, but I still need to look at DC's posts.

podium123456 - Can't get a good read off of him. At the moment I'm thinking he's town. Not the strongest read though.

MagnaofIllusion/OpposedForce/GreenDude - GreenDude did some strange things, but never actually explained his behavior. Neutral for now. I still need to see what his replacements have said.

[Wickedestjr]

Ok by me. I don't really have a stance on Super. People have made very good points and justified themselves properly from what I can deprehend. But what Super has been doing still looks a little like "confused townie who didn't grasp the situation yet". So... yeah, bring the L1.

Alright, this looks really bad. You didn't have your vote on SSBF at the time, and you wanted him at L-1, so why didn't

you

vote him?

[Wickedestjr]

Ugh, another prod. I don't have a big deal with Seacore calling me out on the "interesting" thing - I can honestly see where he came from.

The second thing, which I find much more suspicious, is that in the first bolded portion he states reasons to find TLJ suspicious which seem to revolve around him pretending to be Jesus, but in the second boled portion, he asks what mental problems TLJ has which also seems to revolve around TLJ pretending to be Jesus. If TLJ's behavior is due to mental problems, then why does it mean he is scum? Doesn't seem consistent to me.

[1:The whole "mental problems" comment seemed to be an obvious joke], [2: something that you should have experience with, wicked]. He says he finds TLJ suspicious because he makes long, fluffy posts that look like they have a lot of content but really don't - at least that's what I gleaned from it. I don't think it's because he's pretending to be Jesus.

Anyways, SSBF is the scummiest dude here and I really think we should lynch him fairly soon - deadline's coming up in like a week.

1: What made it seem like an obvious joke?

2: What?

[Wickedestjr]

What?? I certainly wouldn't accuse seacore of avoiding having to take a stance, based on his votes and language -- and i doubt anyone else here would as well. You really think he has avoided taking stances? It feels like you are really stretching things to make this argument. Which makes me ask myself, 'why'?

If you are only referring to the time period at which the posts you referenced occurred, then:

A. Why mention it now, if you have seen his activity since then.

B. At that time, most of the players had failed to say anything of substance... so why would you single out seacore with this accusation?

A. He has given stances after I made the point. That doesn't change anything. Why would it?

B. The point wasn't that he wasn't taking stances. It was that he seemed to be deliberately avoiding taking stances.

WHY dont you like the people on the wagon? Is it because it is at L-1 and someone could hammer prematurely? Is it because it's a full wagon, and full wagons are suspicious? Is it certain players on the wagon that may be working together, or an individual with malicious intent?

These were the people on the wagon at the time of my comment: Seacore, Deer, TLJ, esurio, podium, and Master Tang. Esurio and podium were two people I liked on the wagon. TLJ I was neutral on. Seacore, Deer, and Master Tang were all people I found suspicious. Seacore and Deer were two of my main suspects at the time. So, half the people on the bandwagon were people I found suspicious.

[Wickedestjr]

Hopefully I'll be able to get another post in today. I'm certainly going to try.

Mod:

Can you please delete one of those posts? Thanks.

(Done. --AGM)

[Wickedestjr]

I've read the rest of page 11.

I think taking votes off him is a bad idea. He should remain at L-1, until he claims.
I've previously been blasted in another game for fearing the hammer that comes before the claim. And that's because we shouldn't be. It's a good trap to set and the hammerer would look scummy regardless of flip.

This doesn't make sense. Can you please explain it again? Thanks.

Let's recap, at the time of Wicked's post SSBF was at l-1. In that post Wicked :
1) Asked for a claim,
2) Asked for people to take their vote off him, and
3) Declared he didn't find SSBF scummy and was suspicious of the bandwagon.

[1: This is not a great town move. You shouldn't ask for the claim of somebody you think is town. That's a form of rolefishing. If he doesn't think SSBF is scum he should be looking for an alternative, not asking him to claim. Leave it up to someone who's willing to be the 7th vote to demand a claim.]
[2: Asking people to take their votes off him is also wrong, as I've explained before. It's a good trap and it keeps the suspicion on.]
And finally, yes, I would like to know who he thinks is scummy in the bandwagon. Assuming we have 3 scum in this game (which is usually about right), I imagine we have one or both scum on the wagon. Personally I think it's one, Master Tang.

1: I feel that if anybody is at L-2 or L-1, then they should claim. Regardless of if I suspect them or not, I didn't think I would be able to derail a bandwagon on a player if I hadn't read any of their posts, but I certainly didn't want the town to lynch a player without knowing if that player was a power role or not.

2: I don't understand how it is a good trap. I also think the detriments of accidentally having somebody hammer a power role outweigh the benefit of having one extra vote to pressure a player.

But, do you believe that (with allllll that has went on) seacore is the scummiest of all choices... all (seemingly) based on what transpired following your odd attempt at a joke?

He wasn't my biggest suspect at the time, but you don't always have to vote your top suspect. Also, whether the points I made against him have merit or not doesn't revolve around when it was said or what it was in response to. His posts that I was basing the points on were serious, so the points have merit.

1: Even today, 'im getting a bad vibe' (concerning hiphop) is kind of vague, and 2: you merely pointed out a few suspicious posts made by players. 3: You have asked a lot of questions, but have responded to few of those replies... 4: and haven't said much about anyone else except Seacore, in terms of your opinion of their alignment.

1: I didn't have much time to explain my bad vibe of hiphop. Catching up and occasionally giving my thoughts has higher priority than giving players a second look.

2: ...and?

3: Most of the responses to my questions were good enough for me.

4: Limited time.

p.s. - who is in your avatar?

Russell Hantz, one of the players that has played in the two most recent seasons of Survivor. One of the most amusing players I've seen.


I don't really understand the conversation between TLJ and podium. What question did podium ask TLJ that TLJ didn't want to answer right away? Has Ythill answered the question yet?


Rank's post 267 doesn't really impress me. Seems to have read most of the thread and yet gives us very little. First he shows a weak stance on SSBF which looks opportunistic and secondly he gives a vague accusation of TCC. Rank, can you give examples for your TCC suspicion please?

[Wickedestjr]

OpposedForce promised a post...let's see, 4 days ago? Come on now - when the person you're replacing was a lurker, why come into a game and lurk?

Anyways, though, SSBF, I do thank you for the posts.

You promised us a good post too. Why are you complaining about him?

[Wickedestjr]

All: Both Wicked and Exilon reacted strangely to comments about their behavior. 1:Wicked removed his vote without replying to Seacore's mention of it, and 2: placed it on someone unlikley to compete with Super Smash for today's lynch.

1: This is incorrect. Seacore did respond to my points against him.

2: Who said I wanted Deer lynched? I specifically said I was voting him until he provided a good post.

Yes, your statement was a distraction. We're still bloody talking about it. I could make everybody start talking about the merits of bubblegum flavoured cheese, and take people out of RVS. That doesn't mean its a good thing. RVS is useful sometimes, and the way you brought us out of RVS added nothing to the game. So I standby that it was a distraction.

What more would any other way of getting out of the RVS have given us? I don't see how my way of getting out of the RVS didn't provide as much to the game as any normal way of getting out of the RVS would've.


Finished with pages 12 and 13.

[Wickedestjr]

Wicked: The purpose of the bolded question was to determine if their was a reason for Exilon's apparent nervousness. I was not seeking a particular response. I was seeking an honest one, which Exilon's seemed to be, in that he had no specific excuse but posted realistic conjecture that accounted for his tone.

Does that change your view of Exilon in anyway? You do realize as scum he could easily make up a reason for being nervous, don't you?

podium: It is clear from the flavor that our second killer is an arsonist. Also, the time has come for full disclosure. The reason that I was giving Master Tang leeway at the begining of the day was that his suspicious behavior seemed too obvious and purposeful for him to be scum. It was my belief that he was a pro-town power role playing with the (false) impression that acting guilty is a good way to avoid being slain by our enemies. Hence my strange comments about his case against me. Do you now understand why I felt it better to keep this belief secret? If you have further questions on the subject, I will answer them.

This was one of Master Tang's only games on the site, if not his only game. Do you really think that he would have thought about doing that in one of his first games? I don't really think so.

Now, who's in Greendude's slot now? because I want him dead.

Even though the slot has made two game related posts? Also, you say this yet don't vote. Doesn't make much sense.

I'm also going to start looking more harshly at Wicked.

For what reason?

That's what it means. Hi everyone. Thanks for putting up with my D1 alt. I'll be picking through the thread over the next day or three. Then we'll hang scum.

This strikes me as a bit odd. Why weren't these things you could've done when you were TLJ?


That's page 14.

[Wickedestjr]

I like the first point DiamondCrash brings up in his first post. What I don't like is that DiamondCrash brought up many points against Seacore, yet didn't vote. What's the deal?


I've broken up podium's points against me ion post 358:

From his activity/language/exp. at the start of the day, i was expecting him to be a leader in the scum hunting... but then he got hung up on that stuff at the very start of the day with seacore

I don't understand this point. Do you have a problem with my attack of Seacore?

and, oddly, stayed with it till the end.

I was waiting for Seacore to respond to the accusation. I wasn't going to let a player get away with something I found suspicious just because they wouldn't defend theirself.

Only after several people started talking about it, did he remove his vote from seacore...

Nope. I took my vote off Seacore once he actually responded to my points.

and then placed it on Deer for lack of contributing. ...but, if that was his criteria, greendude (or maybe even TCC) would have seemed a much better choice for his vote.

Deer looked more suspicious, because he was actually posting a decent amount, so I saw no reason for him to not make a good post. GreenDude made two posts that actually were relevant to the game. So, I guess the thing I really find suspicious about Deer is his active lurking. I get the impression that he is trying to appear helpful, but isn't.

Also, 'lack of contributing' seems an odd reason for a vote at the end of the day, when there was so much questionable actions/language available in the thread from other players.

I strongly doubted that anybody else would've gotten lynched that day other than SSBF, so I voted Deer for a reason that wasn't that I wanted him lynched.

[Wickedestjr]

I'm not very impressed by Magna's comments on the players alive in the game. I will elaborate later.

[Wickedestjr]

I find it strange how Ythill goes from thinking Exilon is an SK to having no doubt that he is mafia. Seems like a huge jump to me.

[Wickedestjr]

Later is much sooner than I expected.

I’m trying to decide my thoughts on his defense of SSBF. Despite Smash’s Cop flip I find Smash’s play to be pretty anti-town. Perhaps his gut read as SSBF as a poor playing newbie is simply an accurate gut read. Usually, however, that sort of departure I see as scum laying the ground-work that they were against a mis-lynch.

I don't like this point. It's not impossible for a townie to have different views than the rest of the town.

He held his vote on Seacore the majority of the Day and shift late to Deer for inactivity.

I didn't vote Deer for inactivity. I voted him for not contributing enough or active lurking.

Then RankStranger replaces in. 1: His opinion on TCC is an interesting shift since HH really didn’t address TCC at all. His activity is pretty sparse and 2: I absolutedly hate ISO 3 - “Wow, two night kills?”. 3: Also I don’t like his fence-sitting regarding SSFB – he would prefer to lynch TCC but didn’t build anything of a case other than some vague generalities.

This is all wrong.

1: This is completely irrelevant.

2: Don't like this point either. Rank wasn't the only one surprised about two night kills, so why do you use the point against only him?

3: How is that fence sitting?

Ythill / TLJ – I’m not a big fan of alt-accounts built to use affectations in some sort of gambit form.

Clearly the alt was created before the slot received the role pm, so why is this even relevant? This point doesn't say much.

Podium – Spreads his questions and response around to many players through the day, which is Pro-Town in my mind.

About a week (RL time, of course) moves to a lot of defending against Exilon and esuri. When this is addressed (by Wicked, I believe) he moves back to scum-hunting and questioning.

I don’t like in ISO 24 he calls SSBF for stating “I have absolutely nothing to hide from you guys” while he did not (as I can see) question Exilon’s similar statement.

The bolded is an example of IIoA.


Another thing I dislike about Magna's post is that he had problems with all of the players. He doesn't give only positive feedback to any of the remaining players, which seems odd to me.

[Wickedestjr]

You didn’t see TLJ as an alt of an experienced player? His grasp of terminology and the manner in which he clearly spread his interactions around screamed ‘familiar with the game’ not ‘newb’ to me.

I didn’t really consider him to be an alt. This could be because I’m not very familiar with alts or because TLJ didn’t give me the impression that he was so experienced as Ythill.

Ythill, Seacore and Deer, can you each please link me to your most recent town and scum games that would be good to look at for meta purposes? (Ythill, I noticed your request for me to place a vote. I will do so, once I have taken a look at you, Seacore and Deer’s metas.)

1. I don't think Greendude (or whoever made that comment) thought, in all actuality, that TLJ/Ythill had legitimate mental problems. Do you?

2. You saying "OMG GUYS I'VE CAUGHT SCUM" on the first page was also an obv-joke.

1. When I read the post where he said “what mental problems does TLJ have”, it gave me the impression that he was scum surprised that a townie was acting so strangely.
2. What was the purpose of saying the bolded part: “The whole "mental problems" comment seemed to be an obvious joke,

something that you should have experience with, wicked.

” ?

Wicked, why did you ask me about the "obvious joke" post?

I found it strange that you were just calling GreenDude’s comment an obvious joke, when I thought the point I brought up was a good one.

I don’t like Ythill’s case against Exilon. I do think his points against DC are good ones though.

[Wickedestjr]

Which reminds me, wicked asked another (irrelevant) question. I'll try to answer it.

I used to be of the opinion (up until very recently) that L-1 was claim land, and that L-2 might as well be. But I now feel (after I was nearly lynched because of it, and then had it pointed out in detail) that this is incorrect.

If someone is at L-1 it means that there are not enough people voting to lynch the person. It means that less than a majority want that person dead.

The above assumes of course that nobody is willing to hammer.
If nobody is willing to hammer then the person should not claim, because it is merely providing information to the scum about where town's PRs are located.

If somebody is willing to hammer, they should say so, in effectively the following way.
"Hey Bob, I think you're scum and I'm going to lynch you. But maybe I've got it wrong and you're the [insert PR] and I just don't want to risk that, particularly not on Day [X]."

Basically, Mr Potential Hammer is saying "all things considered I want you dead, but maybe I'll put it off for a day or two if you have a significant PR that I dont' want to risk."

You should not ask for a claim to then decide whether you are going to lynch or not if you are not already willing to lynch. Otherwise, that's rolefishing.

If I see somebody at L-1, then I want them to claim regardless of what I think that player's allignment is. This is because I don't want to risk having a power role lynched before they get the chance to claim and the town gets the chance to consider if it is true or a lie. Also, as I said before, I doubted that I'd be able to derail the wagon anyway. Something else to note is that it was a week before deadline when I requested a claim. I was the first to do so. If I hadn't requested a claim, then he might not've claimed until 3 or 4 days before deadline. (Did anybody else actually ask for a claim?) If he had claimed a power role then, then that would have been really bad for us. We would end up no-lynching.

1: Finally, a real "oh my god, I didn't mean to hammer" are few and far between. 2: And can be effecitvely circumvented by a large "Bob is on L-1" in big bold font. 3: 99% of the time (actual statistics may not exist) people who 'accidentally hammer' are scum. Thus, L-1 pre claim is a good trap.

1: What's your point? That doesn't mean we shouldn't prevent it from happening.

2: Ftr SSBF was at L-1 and nothing like this happened that I can remember.

3: I think the percentage is lower than that. Scum would be much more careful about this sort of thing than a townie would, and townies could easily make this mistake.

[Wickedestjr]

What makes up a "good post" in your eyes, Wicked? I've said I think Diamond is scum and outlined the reasons. I don't need to write a 3-paragraph essay about it.

Tell me who the scum are.

I think this argument is bogus.

We were barely out of RVS, most players hadn't said anything, and seacore was criticizing a couple of actions that he felt didnt help the town. How much more of a stance were you expecting him to take? To call them scum because of the actions he was criticizing? He said that he didnt think those actions made them scum.

So, how exactly was he 'avoiding taking a stance'?

I was expecting him to give some kind of opinion on those things that was actually helpful such as "I find that a bit scummy" or "I think that looks townish". I was certainly not expecting him to say something like "He's scum for doing this." I have already explained why I think he is avoiding taking a stance.

I'm sorry, but i think that is a very weak answer to your actions.

We were HOURS away from the deadline and you're telling me that having your vote on the person you didnt think was scum, was the way to go at that point? And how in the hell would you ever get town to vote off who you think is scummy if you never tell us, and never vote them?

Am i the only one that thinks that is just preposterous?

I doubted my ability to persuade everybody when it was close to deadline, I wasn't caught up, and I hadn't made a case on my main suspect.

Another BS answer, IMO. You had time to make all those posts/summaries that you did, but never had time to slip in an alignment call for anyone other than seacore? I'm not buying it.

My intention was to catch up and then make a case. If I spent too much time trying to make a case, it would only put me farther behind and might be out of date.

I think that wicked knew that SSBF was going to flip town and didnt want to be on the vote. In post 244, he outlines several scummy things that SSBF did, and in post 249 he specifically calls him town. (i'd have to doublecheck, but he may be the ONLY person that thought SSBF was town... how convenient)

Townies do scummy things. Especially inexperienced ones like SSBF. Also, what is wrong or convenient about me being the only person to think SSBF was town? I have been accused of not agreeing with everybody else several times as non-mafia (my SK game comes to mind), but in the end it was shown that I was right anyway. I can link you to an example.

Also, i think that he deliberately avoided taking stances on players -- ironic, no? Difference is, i think your D1 play clearly shows that, and Seacores actions at the time you made that accusation dont.

I have explained this before. Also, once again, you have misunderstood my original point against Seacore. The point was that he seemed to be avoiding taking stances, not that he simply wasn't taking stances.

Lots of questions, and the appearance of scum hunting... but hardly any alignment calls. It just doesnt add up, to me, when considering his experience/activity. I feel good about where my vote is.

Check some of my other games. I think I do this as both town and scum.

[Wickedestjr]

1: This is incorrect. Seacore did respond to my points against him.

2: Who said I wanted Deer lynched? I specifically said I was voting him until he provided a good post.

1. Seacore got it right. I find it suspicious when a player removes/places a vote in response to being called out on something, rather than explain themselves.

2. The way this played out is in your favor. No experience with Wick-scum but Wick-SK pushed his throwaway vote much harder while avoiding D1 wagons. That said, I don't like you're defense here. Nobody said you were trying to lynch Deer.

1. I said that I didn't find Seacore as suspicious any more and said what I still wanted to be explained. The fact that that was the only thing I wanted a response to should indicate that he convinced me on the other points.

2. You implied that. This is what you said: “Wicked removed his vote without replying to Seacore's mention of it, and placed it on someone unlikley to compete with Super Smash for today's lynch. Exilon heavily pushed the Super wagon but only promised the hammer as an afterthought.”
I voted somebody that I wanted to make a good post. I wasn’t trying to vote a person that could compete with Super Smash for the lynch, because I didn’t want him lynched in the first place.

@Wick:

Exilon's answer seemed honest enough to overlook my tone-based suspicions and place him @ MotR rather than scum. Remember that he was listed as town before I started questioning his tone. With MT, I honestly didn't consider his experience level at the time,

but acting scummy to stay alive is something I would expect more from a beginner than a veteran.

Why is it that you think this?

[Wickedestjr]

I don't like this point. It's not impossible for a townie to have different views than the rest of the town.

And it isn’t impossible for it to be coming from scum either. Other than not liking the suspicion on you anything else?

You are ignoring my point. I also don't understand your question.

Don't like this point either. Rank wasn't the only one surprised about two night kills, so why do you use the point against only him?

Did you miss my question to Podium at 374 regarding why he thought it was odd given his chat Mafia experience? He had already addressed that he looked up SK / Vigs before I replaced in so I questioned him directly regarding why he had to look it up. So the second half of your statement is incorrect.

Hadn't seen your questioning of it yet. How come you didn't mention podium's surprise about the two night kills when you were giving your thoughts on all the players?

Another thing I dislike about Magna's post is that he had problems with all of the players. He doesn't give only positive feedback to any of the remaining players, which seems odd to me.

It seems odd to you that someone can have some suspicions about the play of every player? That’s pretty much the definition of the uniformed portion of the uniformed majority. I suppose if you are Mafia it’s easier for you to be assured of who is town and who is not and buddy more effectively.

Yes, that seems odd to me. It gives you room to change your suspicions. Also, by uniformed, do you mean uninformed? You haven't changed my mind about this point one bit. All you have done is stated the obvious that town are uninformed and scum are informed.


Also, why did you ignore everything else in my post?

[Wickedestjr]

I'm caught up. Rank, DC, and Magna are my top suspects at the moment.

Vote: DC

. I didn't realize we were so close to deadline before, so I decided to vote before giving the players close looks. There seems to be interest in lynching DC and I would much prefer lynching him over Exilon.

Rank - I think he is scum because of his unimpressive post of content plus my gut scum read on hiphop part of which was due to his attack of Exilon which I didn't like.

DC - I didn't like TCC's behavior and DC's hasn't been much better. He gives several "observations" about Seacore, which weren't bad, but he doesn't vote Seacore nor give his stance on Seacore (or at least I don't remember him giving a stance). The rest of his posts have been responding to others. He isn't scumhunting at all. I quickly looked at him in iso and have become very happy with lynching him.

Magna - Had a problem with his first post of content as I outlined before. Gut is also telling me scum.

I realize I am basing a lot of this on gut, and am not giving many points against these three. When I get more time, I will give these players another look to see if there are any other things that point to them being scum.

[Wickedestjr]

I've got to go. I will respond to podium later as well.

[Wickedestjr]

I was expecting him to give some kind of opinion on those things that was actually helpful such as "I find that a bit scummy" or "I think that looks townish". I was certainly not expecting him to say something like "He's scum for doing this." I have already explained why I think he is avoiding taking a stance.

I understand WHY you think he would avoid taking a stance. My point is HOW was he avoiding a stance? He said those things 'dont help town'... which is pretty darn close to 'i find that a bit scummy'. Close enough so that i think you are stretching to make that accusation.

*sigh* Let's take another look at the original point:

It also looks like Seacore is trying to avoid taking a stance on anything yet. In post 42 he says he doesn't think I'm scum but he thinks I'm an idiot. And in post 56 he says he doesn't think deer is scum, but unhelpful. And then in post 59 he brings up a point against Deer but still doesn't state his opinion of him, which makes me think he is trying to avoid having to take a stance.

-The first example he says he thinks I'm an idiot but not scum. This is not an opinion relevant to the goal of the game.

-He says he thinks deer is being unhelpful, but in post 56 specifically states he doesn't think it is scummy of deer.

So, he hasn't actually given any helpful opinions.

I'm sorry, but i think that is a very weak answer to your actions.

We were HOURS away from the deadline and you're telling me that having your vote on the person you didnt think was scum, was the way to go at that point? And how in the hell would you ever get town to vote off who you think is scummy if you never tell us, and never vote them?

Am i the only one that thinks that is just preposterous?

I doubted my ability to persuade everybody when it was close to deadline, I wasn't caught up, and I hadn't made a case on my main suspect.

So you just keep your main suspect (and your case for it) to yourself... and if you die during the night, we never get that information. Thanks.

I guess you have a point that I probably should've mentioned my suspects. All I can say is that I really didn't think that through. I would've had I actually managed to catch up.

[Wickedestjr]

What makes up a "good post" in your eyes, Wicked? I've said I think Diamond is scum and outlined the reasons. I don't need to write a 3-paragraph essay about it.

Tell me who the scum are.

DC, possibly Exilon, and possibly you. Ythill is most likely town, Seacore is most likely town, Podium is most likely town. Magna I'm split on.

Can you please expand on your reads of Ythill, Seacore, and Magna?

[Wickedestjr]

Exilon's self vote is anti-town, but I can't see him doing that as scum. In fact, it strengthens my town read.

I have been accused of not agreeing with everybody else several times as non-mafia (my SK game comes to mind)...

Does this tell you anything about my alignment? (For those who didn't read the game, I was the one who pushed that accusation against Wick, but it was less about his agreement and more about him throwing away his vote and effort on an unpopular candidate near deadline.)

I figured it was a point you weren't pursuing because I flipped SK that game as opposed to mafia. Am I correct?

This is what you said: “Wicked removed his vote without replying to Seacore's mention of it, and

placed it on someone unlikley to compete with Super Smash for today's lynch

. Exilon heavily pushed the Super wagon but only promised the hammer as an afterthought.” I voted somebody that I wanted to make a good post.

I wasn’t trying to vote a person that could compete with Super Smash for the lynch

...

Compare the phrases I bolded. You have admitted that you did the thing I found suspicious. Now please understand that doing something suspicious != being scum. However, what bothered me about your initial response is that you tried to sidestep the argument by building a little strawman. Now that you've discarded it, please get back to the original argument. If you knew that Deer couldn't compete with SSBF for the lynch, what made you believe that your vote would pressure him? Did you suspect MT at the time? If you thought SSBF was town, why weren't you trying to push an alternative?

1. I thought he would be pressured by the fact that there was suspicion on him.

2. I was unsure about MT. He had done some very strange/suspicious things, but it seemed he was inexperienced, so I was unsure. I didn't want him to be lynched though.

3. I wasn't pushing an alternative, because I doubted that I would be able to.

[Wickedestjr]

-The first example he says he thinks I'm an idiot but not scum. This is not an opinion relevant to the goal of the game.

-He says he thinks deer is being unhelpful, but in post 56 specifically states he doesn't think it is scummy of deer.

So, he hasn't actually given any helpful opinions.

My point (that i think you are missing) is what more do you want him to say? He viewed 2 actions that he thought weren't helping the town... and said so.

How can he 'avoid taking a stance', if he sees nothing to take a stance over?

I guess (for your argument to work) you think he should have said 'oh i think you are acting reallllly scummy there' -- but what if he doesnt think it was scummy? Then he is being penalized for no reason, that i can see. If he said all there was to say about it, what more do you want?

I want him to give some kind of game-relevant opinion. Players giving stances on eachother are how we find connections between players or find out what players are thinking. I was certainly not asking him to take such a strong stance, but an opinion such as "I find that a bit scummy" or "I find that a bit townish." I have stated this plenty of times.


CDB -

1. I think the most important pages were the ones in which podium and Exilon got into an argument and the Ythill vs. Exilon argument. Mostly, because I got much stronger reads on the players involved.

2. Hmm... I think there have been many important posts in this game. I'm thankful that Ythill made that post with his top suspects, I also think Magna's post about all the players left in the game was pretty suspicious and worth considering when trying to figure out his allignment.

[Wickedestjr]

podium, he specifically said that he didn't think he was scum for it though.

[Wickedestjr]

You are ignoring my point. I also don't understand your question.

I’m not ignoring your point. My personal experience in Mafia games (not necessarily here on MS mind you) says that someone making a push against what turns out to be a mislynch (and a popular one) on Day 1 is attempting to book ‘town cred’. A significant enough portion of the time that is a Mafia in my experience.

You have ignored my point. Please show me where you addressed it. Sure, maybe it is behavior more likely to come from scum. That's kind of irrelevant. I'm saying that I have done it in previous games as town (or SK), so why when I do it here do you have a problem with it? In fact, the one game I was mafia, I supported most of the lynches, so doing it is a town tell for me. Your response to my defense not only didn't address my point, but the point you are using against me is something I haven't done as mafia and have done several times as town.

Hadn't seen your questioning of it yet. How come you didn't mention podium's surprise about the two night kills when you were giving your thoughts on all the players?

Do you not consider context when fashioning your questions?

Night ends with two deaths at 333.
RS says “Wow, two night kills?” content rich post at 334.
Podium says “then two night kills … I don’t even know how that’s possible. can someone tell me what might have happened?” at 337.
Podium says “EBWOP: After reading the wiki on killers, i guess what happened is that we have a vigilante or serial killer… or something like that” at 338.
I replace in at 348.

Podium answered my concerns about the “what two nightkills” statement by immediately addressing it in thread. Thus when I was doing my read-through what would have been a troubling statement on it’s own for Podium was already explained. I questioned him to see if I believed that he could have that much chat Mafia experience and not know about Vigs / SKs. RS simply fires off his statement with no other commentary, and does not post again before my read-through.

Do you not see a difference between RS’s 334 post and Podium’s posts at 337/338?

First of all, what exactly is suspicious about being surprised by two night kills anyway? Once I know what you find suspicious about it, I can figure out why you see a difference.

Yes, that seems odd to me. It gives you room to change your suspicions.

Unless you are Mafia suspicions about players are going to change as play continues. Are you asserting that I should have a town read I don’t waver from on my first read-through on replacing?

My point is that if a player starts getting lots of negative attention, you can simply bring up your points against them and act as if you were always suspicious of them. It gives you a way to switch over to the more popular targets without looking bad.

What happens if I do this?
Vote: Exilon .
Reactions, please.

You look foolish. Self-voting is a null-tell.

Scum will only jump at the chance to hammer you if you aren’t scum yourself.

These bolded sentences seem a bit contradictory.

By the way, I claim Vanilla Townie.

Reactions, please.

So you claim at L-2 when no-one specifically requested it. Great anti-town play.

Did you want him to claim? Why or why not?

[Wickedestjr]

I've had limited access the past few days. Should get some time for a good post tomorrow.

Ftr, I would much prefer lynching CDB over Exilon. What contributions has CDB's slot made thus far? Hardly any if any.

[Wickedestjr]

Well, I am very surprised Magna flipped town. He was one of my top suspects. I'm going to have to give the thread another look.

I would like to ask Ythill, Seacore and Deer who they each believe to be scum.

I would also like to hear what CDB and Hero think about Seacore and Ythill. I'd prefer if CDB answered the question first though.

CDB, what do you think of Seacore and Ythill?
Hero, what do you think of Seacore and Ythill?



Also, it is probably LyLo right now. Time for mass claim?

[Wickedestjr]

Ftr, my suspicion of Seacore has been increasing. I will explain later.

[Wickedestjr]

No. I'm not pursuing it because (1) your tone and actions were markedly different in Mafia in Sienna and (2) you get town cred in other places while other players seem(ed) scummier than you by a fair amount.

(2) Why does that mean you would ignore a point against me?

he specifically said that he didn't think he was scum for it though

Exilon's self vote is anti-town, but I can't see him doing that as scum

1: Wicked. So you're avoiding taking a stance here too?
2: I found your actions and Deer's actions anti town. I specifically said I didn't find them scummy, but wanted those kinds of actions to stop because they didn't help town.
That was my stance.
It was an obvious stance.

1: No. I said I can't see him self-voting as scum, meaning I got a town read from it. That is a stance.

2: In that case, I don't understand why you didn't express any suspicion (FoS or a vote) to apply pressure to them. The RVS was just ending and you didn't have any suspects. Why not pressure somebody who has done something anti-town? Seems like the strongest lead you could've had imo.

This comment shows me that you are getting caught arguing something you can't justify, and is the closest sign i've seen all game of an absent minded scum mistake.

1: If he specifically said he wasn't scum, then he is taking a much firmer stance than what you said would be required to avoid the argument (i find that townish/scummish)

2: As a matter of fact, i remember reading his line about you when he made it (i dont think he's scum, i think he's an idiot) and thinking to myself it was a bold statement to make at that point in the game.

1: My goodness! He said he didn't think we were scum

for our actions

. He wasn't saying he didn't think we were scum. He was saying he didn't find us suspicious at all for our actions. I can't believe you still don't understand this.

2: The only stance he is taking when he made that statement was that he thought I was an idiot. Which isn't even game relevant. That statement didn't tell us anything about what he thought my allignment was. He's even admitted that. What is so bold about that statement?

Additionally, so what if he said he didn't think he was scum... that doesn't change my point.

Can a townie do something that is anti-town? Yes. Would that action necessarily be described as 'scummy' if it's assumed that it wasn't intentional? No, it would just be an anti-town action.

Therefore, there was no additional stance he could have taken besides what he stated.

See my response to 490.

I missed that, sorry.

This was in response to Ythill's post 493. I find it very hard to believe that a townie would simply backoff so easily like this. He doesn't know that Ythill is town, so why doesn't he follow his own beliefs? (Hint: It's because he's not town.)

[Wickedestjr]

I really don't have much to say. Exilon seems to be digging himself into deeper and deeper holes.

This strikes me as a very unhelpful and irrelevant observation. More like an observation coming from somebody outside the game as opposed to somebody actually playing.

Hell, i can probably answer that for you right now... 1 vig/sk and 6 villagers.



and.... now that i think about it, there's probably no need in outing the vig (if it's a vig)... its the only advantage we have left.


arent you experienced enough to realize all this? or am i missing something with my thoughts here?

Well, are we supposed to not have a mass claim just because we don't think it will reveal that much information? In general mass claims are good to have if you think you are in LyLo.

I haven't reread D2 yet, and will do so before making any definitive scumpicks. However, I don't mind giving my off-the-cuff guesses now. Podium and Deer still look obv-town to me. The scum are among CDB, Wicked, Seacore, and Hero. CDB is at the top of the list. Over the next couple of days I'll go through the evidence and narrow it down to three.

@Wick: So you're going to ask for the suspicions of everyone except podium, and then not give your own? Bad.

Didn't you say earlier that you thought Seacore was town? Why is he still one of your possible candidates for scum?

As for my suspicions, I'm getting to that.

I'm really not happy with Wicked. Can somebody explain to me why he can't be an SK?

This is a change. Earlier you decided to ignore this point because of Ythill. What's changed?



I strongly dislike Ythill's bloc suggestion. Ythill, have you ever made that suggestion before?

[Wickedestjr]

podium, please unvote. Please remember we are in LyLo.

[Wickedestjr]

Seacore and Ythill are scum. The third one is either Hero or Deer. I found CDB's slot suspicious until 1.) I looked at the slot in iso and 2.) I saw post 540. I'm 95% certain that podium is town.

[Wickedestjr]

Wow.

Vote: CDB

. I'm a One Shot Vig.

I

killed Master Tang.

[Wickedestjr]

CDB, you might as well give it up. TCC was replaced right after Night 1 ended. She wasn't around to even submit a kill! I seriously doubt she would've killed MT anyway, because her only comment regarding MT the whole time she played was:

I do think that MasterTang's did come out of the blue a little bit, but i think his reasons where pretty justified. ...

That doesn't sound like she's suspicious of him and if she changed her mind, I don't see where.

So, thanks for claiming scum CDB!

CDB is pretty much confirmed scum now from any pov because of his claim.

[Wickedestjr]

1: If he specifically said he wasn't scum, then he is taking a much firmer stance than what you said would be required to avoid the argument (i find that townish/scummish)

1: My goodness! He said he didn't think we were scum

for our actions

. He wasn't saying he didn't think we were scum. He was saying he didn't find us suspicious at all for our actions.

1: Actually, he flat out said he didnt think you were scum. 2: Later, he stated he had a null read on you. (which are stances) 3: Additionally, he pointed out things you two did that were anti-town.

4: Look, i get your point... you think he should have called yourself or deer suspicious because you did a suspicious thing. I think that isn't a valid argument, see the end of this post for yet another explanation.

1: Where?

2: Null read isn't really a stance imo. Especially in this circumstance. It was very early in the game, so I would think saying he had a null read on me meant he didn't have an idea of my allignment.

3: Yes, but he said he didn't find either of the things suspicious.

4: Again, I'm not expecting him to have called Deer scum for using the word interesting. I was expecting game relevant opinions.

2: As a matter of fact, i remember reading his line about you when he made it (i dont think he's scum, i think he's an idiot) and thinking to myself it was a bold statement to make at that point in the game.

2: The only stance he is taking when he made that statement was that he thought I was an idiot. Which isn't even game relevant. That statement didn't tell us anything about what he thought my allignment was. He's even admitted that. What is so bold about that statement?

Oh, i dont know... maybe the part where he said he didnt think you were scum. What in the hell did you think i was referring to? Seriously.

I dont like the way you argue. It doesn't feel genuine.

When he said he didn't think I was scum, that didn't mean he thought I was town. It meant he didn't think I was scum at that point. He wasn't giving his read on me. He was simply stating he didn't think I was scum. I have stated this many times. When are you going to understand?

See my response to 490.

I'll repeat the questions. Can a townie do something that is anti town? Does that mean that person should always be considered suspicious, based on that action?

You are trying to pin a scum argument on seacore on what is essentially a subjective observation -- but you are requiring him to adopt

your

subjectivity. Example: look at my summary post above. I imply that i dont think deer is scum, and then i say that i think brevity is detrimental to the town.

Apparently you think i should FOS him because i pointed out something he was doing that i thought didnt help the town. But i dont find him suspicious because of that. But you are going to penalize me for not thinking he is. But i dont. repeat to infinity.

*sighs* Yes, a townie can do something anti-town. No, a person doesn't always have to be suspicious of an anti-town action. Maybe it was just an observation of his, but I would think that a townie trying to find scum would pursue even the smallest leads if we were still in the RVS. A townie shouldn't ignore a lead in the RVS. He wasn't asking questions or directing accusations at anybody, so why when there are leads should he ignore them? A townie should ask questions and pressure the player that did the strange action. This is how we get out of the RVS nearly all the time.


...it really doesn't matter that much anymore though. CDB is pretty much confirmed scum now and unless somebody else claims to be the killer of MT, it will be a very very stupid idea to lynch me.

[Wickedestjr]

I strongly dislike Ythill's bloc suggestion. Ythill, have you ever made that suggestion before?

Of course you do because you're not in it. Yes, I've suggested it in lots of games, and used it to win them as town.

Links please. Also, I admit the fact that I'm not in it is one of the reasons I dislike it, but I also dislike the idea, because it essentially puts the game in those players hands, which not only ruins the game for those townies that aren't in it, but also limits the amount of influence a townie not in the bloc has on the lynch. Also, it is very uncomforting when I am pretty certain at least one scum is in it.

Also:

VOTE: ChannelDelibird

Seems painfully obvious that he is scum now.

Are you in the bloc or not? Please unvote. It seems like you don't understand how it works, so I'll explain it fully in my next post (right after I feed my son).

Another reason why the bloc is bad. It seems that players in it have given themselves less freedom when it comes to using their vote. Also, if the three players in the bloc can't agree, then what happens?

Interesting stuff wicked. Perhaps if you had played like you have today, before today, you wouldn't be in quite the pickle you are in. But you didn't.

I would like to know how you can look at post 540 and say that looks like a town move. That blows my feeble mind. Please explain.

What exactly about my play today has been so much better than my play yesterday?

Well, I know CDB is scum now, but the reasons I found it a townish move before were because...

1.) I figured the reasonless vote was some kind of pressure vote. Town has many good reasons to vote somebody without giving any reasons. It gets people to react and puts more pressure on the player being voted imo. Scum have no good reason to do that, but he has already stated that the vote didn't have that motivation behind it, so this point is no longer accurate.

2.) I was finding Seacore increasingly suspicious, so I had no problem with CDB's vote for Seacore.

3.) He must've known that post would've attracted a lot of attention to himself, and I didn't see scum doing it.

I was wrong.

[Wickedestjr]

Another benefit to the bloc is that it helps to control the votes of a mafioso who manages to weasel his way in. For example, let's pretend Deer is scum. Unless one of me/podium is also scum, Deer will not be able to control the bloc and therefore his vote is controlled by the town.

This can be extremely detrimental as well. If one of the three players in the bloc was scum (which there probably is), then they could easily manipulate the votes of the other two players in the bloc giving scum two extra votes. I think the detriments outweigh the benefits.

[Wickedestjr]

Also, CDB being scum changes things a bit. I'm going to have to take another look at the other possible candidates for scum. Specifically, Deer needs another look.

[Wickedestjr]

Sorry for so many posts. (There will probably be more if I finish looking at the possible scum in time.)

Deer, I want you to claim next.

Claims:

CDB - Mafia
Wickedestjr - One-Shot Vig
Ythill - Vanilla Townie


Still need to hear from:

Podium
Deer
Hero
Seacore

[Wickedestjr]

Way to avoiding commenting on the vig claims.

[Wickedestjr]

Deer, what do you think about Seacore?

[Wickedestjr]

Podium, there is no thinking required in this situation. TCC wasn't around night 1 and she was replaced right after Night 1 ended. Also, TCC didn't even show suspicion of MT. I quoted her only comment regarding MT and it's a positive one if anything.

[Wickedestjr]

Ythill, what do you think of post 560?

[Wickedestjr]

@Ythill, there are no breadcrumbs from me.

[Wickedestjr]

Hello again hiphop! Question: Why are voting Seacore, when you know for a fact that there is a scum amongst me and CDB?

[Wickedestjr]

@Ythill in 581 - Me having difficulty getting a read on MT was one of the reasons I killed him. I found him suspicious enough to want him dead, but not enough to waste a lynch on him. I can usually tell if an experienced player is town or scum if their reactions to pressure seem townish or not. MT's reactions to the suspicion on him wasn't exactly suspicious, but I also didn't get a town feeling from it either.

[Wickedestjr]

EBWOP: I'll comment on the rest later.

[Wickedestjr]

Wicked- Why do you think cdb is scum? Is it possible for him to have targeted the same person as you did?

Hmm... This wasn't something I considered, but as I explained earlier, it doesn't seem possible for that slot to have submitted the kill if they were replaced right after the night ended. It also doesn't make sense for TCC to kill MT.

[Wickedestjr]

I'm sorry, I don't have much time for a post today. I was having problems with internet and now I have limited time.

[Wickedestjr]

Awww!!!! I can't believe it. Podium was scum? I had a strong town read on him since page 5 or 6. Very well played podium. I think I underestimated you.

Also congrats to his buddies CBD and Deer. I had a feeling that Deer was scum earlier, but I just couldn't find any points against him. Nice job!

I really can't believe we didn't lynch CDB. TCC was replaced after the night in which she would've submitted the kill and she didn't even suspect MT. I can not believe we didn't lynch him.


I guess I should've stuck to my instinct from page 4 :

My main suspects at the moment are Seacore,

podium, and TCC

.

[Wickedestjr]

Thanks for a great game AlmasterG. I apologize for the inactivity early on.