Mini 955 - Classic Mafia - Over

[podium123456]

/confirm

[podium123456]

^^ tell us, o wise one.

[podium123456]

So... nobody wants to guess who's scum?

I'm still waiting for you to tell us who the maf are, since you said you knew, and seemed to be anxious for us to ask you who they were.

[podium123456]

Wow, what's with all the seacore hate? I dont see where he is over-reacting... wicked made 2 posts asking for people to ask him who scum was before anyone said anything.

And as far as 'you sound worried, is that why you want to know' (which was said to me as well)... well... for what reason would maf have to be 'worried' on d1? wicked is obviously joking.

but when you make a joke like that, you're certainly gonna get called on it. :p

p.s. TCC - seacore's avy is of a not so bright alien off of the show aqua teen hunger force. hmmmmm.. perhaps i will have to break out meatwad as my avy. :p

[podium123456]

so anyway... wicked... care to weigh in on the drama you sparked?

[podium123456]

Podium has an avatar.

I also think seacore is making a big semantics argument out of a little thing. Distancing? dunno.

Still waitin' for wicked to weigh in.

TLJ - speaking in the role of a character, in the interest of being clever or funny (while entertaining) can be considered scummy (hiding behind it) or at the very least annoying... IMO. Be real man!

[podium123456]

Well, when i say semantics, i am mostly referring to your criticism of using the word 'interesting'. You appear to be on him because he said your comment was 'both scummy and interesting'. You think the way it was phrased implies that it was scummy, and then there was ...something else... that made it interesting, as well.

I think he just meant it was slightly scummy and, therefore, interesting.

As far as neutral contributions... what's the difference between (when discussing a comment/scenario) saying 'thats interesting' and 'i have a null tell'?

[podium123456]

If he had said "that is scummy and interesting" I would have let it through.

But he said "that is both scummy and interesting"

Comon man... reading what you just wrote, you dont consider that arguing semantics?

The difference between "that's interesting" and "I have a null tell" is that the former implies you've learnt something, the latter says that you haven't.

The criticism was concerning providing neutral contributions to the discussion. How is saying 'i have a null tell' not a neutral contribution?

I agree that saying 'gee that's interesting', with no discussion, is pointless. However, he later clarified what he found interesting.

If it was obvious I was joking, then why did you say you were waiting for me to say who the mafia were?

The

very next line

, after what you quoted of me, explains why i was waiting for you to say who the mafia are. Because when you make a joke like that, and then keep talking about it ("knock knock!"... "KNOCK KNOCK"), people will eventually go "who's there?".

The fact that you used that point as a FOS against me, yet didn't notice that the answer to your FOS question followed directly after the comment in question, makes me think you are just skimming through posts looking for any FOS you can quickly throw out without really thinking about it.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wicked - your joke/attempt to get out of RVS didnt raise my suspicion of you... but your actions after are starting to. (my point above, and seacore's point of voting him for the natural reaction to your joke)


Exilon - while i dont think it necessitates a vote at this point, i agree that no one likes to hear someone say 'hey i may have too much to handle, and im going to try to lurk more' in these games.

Deer - Your first 3 posts were kind of scummy... since then nothing too odd... maybe that's just naivety on your part to start off like you did.

TCC - Neutral because you first agree with seacore in post 40, and then in post 52 you accuse him of being antsy. Kind of a flip-flop, but i understand there was more going on there.

Eurospiritus - looks town

Hiphop - looks town

Master tang - playing safe

Seacore - Nothing scummy thus far... just getting the impression that you really like to argu.... erm... 'debate'.


TLJ - You are playing in the character of Jesus, i guess. Ok, fine. With two votes on you, and requests to address that, you ramble off a few ambiguous lines. Ok. Then you place a vote on someone using reasoning that is slightly confusing and ambiguous (IMO) which could be seen as just an OMGUS vote. Ok.

Well, in my opinion, i find posting as a character to be a little too convienient for maf to hide behind OR a little lacking in providing believable information as a townie. Let's see if a third vote elicits a different response, or if you respons with something like "it is thy free will that hath spoken, i shall not judge ye"

<-- but kinda -->

VOTE: The Lord Jesus

[podium123456]

edit: Deer - your first 3 posts (AFTER your first RVS post)

[podium123456]

Buah, why do people only start posting when I go to sleep? That is SO not fair. There is SO much to read… =(

...

Hum… WRONG!?
You went and fetched a definition for interesting. Did you also check the definition of relaxed? Or promise, for that matter?
Better yet, did you see the word “lurk” anywhere on my sentence?

...

Sheesh exilon, i was just paraphrasing what it came across like to me.

All you had to do was explain what you meant. No worries, i see what you meant now.

[podium123456]

Way to totally repeat what I said.

Yes. I wasn't hiding anything.

Are we not allowed to agree with something others have said previously? Because several people have already broken that rule. Let us know.

What? I've hardly said a word, and neither has he. I certainly don't have a read on hiphop at this time, and if I were not me I certainly wouldn't have a read on me when I've posted all of like three times prior to this post, and one was a random vote and another consisted of one word.

I'm sorry... is there a threshold that must be met before someone can give an opinion on someone's status? I was merely jotting down a few tidbits as to how i viewed everyone thus far... obviously nothing was set in stone.

I based my observation on you off of your post 77. It appeared to be a mini rundown of your thoughts on some players, and (since you have mentioned you dont have much internet access) i thought it might be the most we see from you for a bit. So, i read everything... didn't see any holes or flawed reasoning.... thought it sounded town... said so.

But lets follow your line of reasoning - i wonder why you come after me so hard, yet ignore hiphop, if it's 'really' something that irks you.

I gave an 'opinion' in my player-by-player rundown, based on your summarization post, and it becomes a large part of your reason for voting me. Yet Hiphop actually

placed a vote

on someone, when that person had provided absolutely NO serious input thus far...

That don't jive.

I mean really, look at it -- hiphop places a serious vote based on little to no info, and you label it a null tell... i give an opinion based on an informative post and you label it a scum tell.

because it's a great scum strategy to make a town buddy or two and try to connect yourselves to them as much as possible to drag them down with you.

What's the point of explaining that tactic? It's probably the most basic strategy there is, and i'm sure we are all aware of it. I feel like perhaps you wanted to just contribute something that sounded impressive/intriguing by stating something inherently obvious.

Just accuse me of trying to buddy up to you, and leave it at that.

He also parrots hiphop's misrep of exilon, which I actually find to be more suspicious than hiphop's original misrep. It's much less risky for someone to jump on something small if someone else has already done so.

Again with the agreeing with another player issue, and AGAIN with (seemingly) preferential treatment. I only gave an

opinion

of my current thoughts on something a player said in my player rundown -- which was later specifically resolved. Hiphop actually PLACED A VOTE based off of what you describe as a 'small misrep'. Yet, you find my actions scummier.

For heavens sakes (TLJ reference ) all i did was make a comment... i feel like you're treating it as if i used what hiphop said as sole justification for a vote.

And i understand the 'you are simply repeating that' argument. But i feel like it's one of those little basic arguments that can apply in many instances -- and maf can pull it out of their pocket and fire several off fast and easy whenever they need to.

Let's just try and hold everyone to the same standard when it comes to 'agreeing' with other players, if it's going to so quickly (and on such trivial issues) be deemed a guiltyscum move.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Maybe it's just because of my frame of reference... but when I break all your points down, it appears that you hold Hiphop to quite a different set of standards than you do me.

Is there a reason for that?

[podium123456]

If it was obvious that I was joking in order to get us out of the RVS, then why did you ask for my suspicions? If you knew I was joking then I wouldn't be able to give them.

Back to my 'knock knock' analogy. I said 'whos there' so i could get 'the punchline'... but... there wasn't really a punchline.

Exilon, who are your suspects at the moment? Do you find podium and/or hiphop suspicious for accusing you of saying you will lurk?

I misinterpreted what he meant by his use of the word 'relaxed'. After he explained what he meant, i see no problem with his original comment. Just FYI as to why i said it.

[podium123456]

sheesh?

I said 'sheesh' because i was surprised that you got that angry over what was (in the end) a misunderstanding. Sorry.

but why did you quote a part of the post which had nothing addressed directly to you? In fact, there was a part of it addressed to you, but you didn't even refer it, or answered anything pointed in there.

I just snipped a piece out because i thought when i explained that i didn't literally mean what i wrote, and that i misunderstood what you meant, that it would resolve the issue.

Underlined is something I would really like an answer to.

(and does one try to lurk? How do you even do that?)

Yes, maf will sometimes try to lurk. You can do it by not posting very often, or with very much content.

You were paraphrasing what you thought it looked like, right? Then explain me the thought process behind the paraphrasing process so I can understand how exactly you translated each word and expression / idea into that final sentence of yours.

'hey i may have to much to handle' - based on you saying 'lets see if i can handle two games at once'.

'im going to try to lurk more' - i misunderstood what you meant by 'relaxed'. i thought you meant 'im just gonna kick back, take it slow, and not get too involved' ... but what you meant was 'im going to try and not blow a gasket right off the bat'

Can you understand better where i was coming from now, when i made that comment?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are several things I find that seem to be wrong here. First of all, esurio pointed out TWO people that you said looked town.
You only pointed out reasoning to call one of them TOWN - Esurio. The other one was Hiphop, but you said nothing about him that could pontentially explain your reasoning that led to you labelling him (even if initially) as town.

Go back to my reasons for saying esurio sounded town, and replace hiphops name for esurio... they are interchangeable for that purpose.

I thought upon reading my reasons for saying esurio 'sounds town', that people would understand that it applied to hiphop as well... since it is a nearly identical situation.

Yet, in this exact same quote, you seem to provide another view of Hiphop, by comparing him, to you. You start this by saing you're going to follow esurio's line of reasoning to come after you... and then end up on Hiphop?
The fact is... it's a false analogy. One thing would be to say "let's use your criteria for going after people, esurio", but you don't know what method she is using, and she doesn't even state it.

Yes, she does. She states that she is suspicious of people considering her town without adequate reason.

She provides two reads of two different people, and for hiphop, she even gave a reason why it was null instead of more suspicious than you, as you tried to state. Yet, I don't see any reference in your post to that justification- only the result.

I was comparing her two conclusions, and showing how they don't make much sense (at least to me). She considered someone making a comment based off of meaningful data

more scummy

than someone placing a vote based off of no data.

Forget the specifics here, and just think about the criteria she is using there. Does that not seem backwards to you?

You point out things that she never pointed out in her post that, according to you, makes him look more suspicious than him.

You use arguments she didn't actually use, and mix them up with your own, and label it "following her reasoning", which isn't true, since it's not in her post.

I think i addressed these above... let me know if you want me to respond to something specifically.

But, if everything you said makes him look more suspicious than you, how the heck did you, in your first post, say he was town? What led you to that conclusion, seeing as how there was so much there that you now point out as reasons for suspicion?

From my POV he (did and still does) 'sounds town'.

Remember that what i was doing was discussing the (apparent) nonsensical nature of her reasoning from

her

POV.

I mean really, look at it -- hiphop places a serious vote based on little to no info, and you label it a null tell... i give an opinion based on an informative post and you label it a scum tell.

This doesn't follow her reasoning. She never stated that "voting based on no info" = null tell, she says the context of it ("too early to be scum") makes it label the whole post as a null tell.

My summary was a description of what actually happened, not a line of reasoning.

But you raise another interesting point. If it's 'too early' for Hiphop to be scum, why is it not also 'too early' for me to be scum?

And you gave an opinion, true - but you never stated your reasons for that same thing. Are we supposed to guess? You only stated your reasoning for it in THAT POST. She didn't lael your opinion based on an informative post a scum tell. What she labeled was the opinion, because she didn't know your reasoning at that time.

Again, i was highlighting the judgement discrepancy from her POV considering what Hiphop did, and what i did.

If she didn't realize that there was more information available for me to make my comment, then there was for Hiphop to place a vote, then it could imply that she was just looking to pick a strong fight against me (or anyone, perhaps) using poor and/or disingenuous reasoning.

In addition to the seemingly backwards judgments she handed down.

Your whole conclusion is off. This is what one can actually conclude by reading her post:

"Hiphop places a serious vote based to little on no info early in the game, so it's labeled a null tell. Podium states two town opinions when there was little information on those players and never elaborates on it on that post, so she labels it as scum"

HEY LOOOK! When you see it like this, it actually seems like you're THE ONE who has something to explain.

Your paraphrasing isn't accurate, and im not sure it changes my point.

I based my comment off of meaningful information. It is assumed that esuri has reviewed other players posts up to that point. In doing so, she would have realized that i voiced my opinion based on that information -- so there would be no need for me to elaborate on it. If i read something and it 'sounds town', then what is there for me to elaborate on? Remember that this was just an off the cuff jotted note... not some hugely important decision.

But the point was made more to draw the distinction between a

comment

, and a

vote

.... as well as

meaningful

information, and

non-meaningful

info and how she judged our actions.

You distort a lot.

After reading my reasonings, do you still believe this?

----------------------------------------

Let me know if there is anything you feel i have sidestepped, and i will be glad to address it.

[podium123456]

I still hold that it is suspicious to conclude that someone "looks town" with the severely limited content I had provided at that time. I see a far more natural town reaction being a "neutral" on either hiphop or me at the time you posted, and MT's "playing safe", which insinuates at least a mild suspicion, without actually elaborating on that suspicion, fishy.

What if i had said "dont see any scumtells" instead? Would you have still gotten so defensive?

If i had known people were going to get so worked up about those specific words, i would have phrased it differently. I thought that in the context of that post (VERY brief notes and devoid of anything like "I believe esurio is town"), people would assume that 'looks town' only meant that i essentially haven't gotten any scumtells so far.

Note that I did not say it was a town action nor a scum action; you seem to have this idea in your head based on your reaction towards me that I am trying to excuse a clearly scummy action as one that is not scummy.

What i am doing is looking at the main criteria you used to nominate me as scum. Then i am showing that Hiphop and myself were BOTH guilty of violating that criteria. Then i am asking why you consider my infraction worthy of a maf vote, and not Hiphops, when his was more severe than mine.

Blatant misrep. The only thing I ever said irked me (and no, you don't get to use that word, that's one of my favourite words, goddamnit, and you haven't proved yourself worthy of it yet :<) was TLJ's non-reaction to my vote on him.

That wasn't a misrep. You said that you are suspicious of people reaching conclusions without sufficient information. That is what i was referencing as irking you... my reaching a conclusion (but really just an observation) on someone off of little information.

Let's not, as that would likely benefit scum. It's not so much the action of agreeing in and of itself so much as the manner in which the agreeing is done, and discouraging players from agreeing with each other at all would eventually undermine town.

The tone of your response to me agreeing with one of your points, implied that you were trying to paint it as a scum move. This (in addition to using the argument again with the hiphop thing) is mainly what prompted me implying that you were viewing

any

agreement as a scum move.

I just really hate that 'he's just agreeing with x' argument. It's much too easy for maf to find someone agreeing with someone (which happens frequently) and toss it out as need be to help support whatever point they are trying to make.

It's one thing to review someone's commentary over an extended period of time and see that they have a pattern of always taking the safe route by agreeing with other players, but it's another thing to start throwing that argument out multiple times right at the start.

I think this here could sum up the brunt of our headbutting quite nicely. Y'see, I completely disagree that your comment regarding me was based off of meaningful data, where as you seem to think that a few sentences is adequate to get a read off of.

Your post was meaningful/serious information, as opposed to lighthearted RVS banter. That's a fact. What's subjective is how MUCH meaningful information is required before someone can begin to form an opinion.

But the point was, as i have stated several times, you claim that someone reaching a conclusion about a player based off of little information is a scumtell. I reached a much less severe conclusion than Hiphop did (mine was merely an observation), and i used more information than Hiphop did in reaching that conclusion.

So why do you hold what i did as being worthy of being maf, and Hiphop receiving a null-tell, if that issue was

really

so important to you?

I am curious, though, podium. I notice that despite our disagreements you have not OMGUS'ed me. What is your current opinion of me now that I've actually posted some things of substance?

Well... considering my earlier assessment of you, i guess you could say i currently view you as neutral. Some points i am pondering:

You have still yet to explain the seemingly lopsided judgment you handed down, in regards to your issue of someone reaching a conclusion about another player based on little/meaningless information.

I think the 'you are agreeing with x and that is a scum move' argument is being abused.

Slightly odd that you would get so worked up as a townie over someone saying you 'looked town' considering the manner in which i did it. However, if you were a maf, it would be a different story. Going after someone for putting no suspicion on you, could look like an

extremely

towny-move to some people. "i'm so town, that i wont stand for someone to say i'm town without a damn good argument".

[podium123456]

Furthermore, you even threw in that definition of interesting, but I've already stated this in the other post.

I'm quite certain his inclusion of the definition of 'interesting' was directed at me, and not you. FYI

Yes, maf will sometimes try to lurk. You can do it by not posting very often, or with very much content.

This is majorly semantics. The fact is you don't 'try to lurk'. Either you lurk or you don't. "trying" is a word that should be used when there is a chance that the action will fail. (for example, you can TRY to swim, you can TRY to fly, etc.) In this case, if you want to lurk, you can lurk. there isn't any chance you'll fail. But as I said, semantics - I know what you meant, so I'll just leave this as a potential example supporting what I said about "sloppy sentence construction".

You can try to lurk. Perhaps it is a mafia member who is very talkative, and argumentative... that person might want to stay under the radar by not posting, and may not be able to refrain from posting excessively. In that case, the person tried to lurk and failed.

Yeah. I just don't really know why one would interpret relaxed as lazy, without considering other possibilities.

That's because you are only considering it from your POV, i guess. My interpretation was actually more literal to the word relaxed than what you intended, IMO. (lazy/uninvolved vs. non-angry)

Yet, in this exact same quote, you seem to provide another view of Hiphop, by comparing him, to you. You start this by saing you're going to follow esurio's line of reasoning to come after you... and then end up on Hiphop?
The fact is... it's a false analogy. One thing would be to say "let's use your criteria for going after people, esurio", but you don't know what method she is using, and she doesn't even state it.

Yes, she does. She states that she is suspicious of people considering her town without adequate reason.

If that's her method, then you can't possibly accuse Hiphop from her perspective. Hiphop wasn't the one considering her town. In fact, he doesn't even mention it. So my argument still stands.

I think you missed the broad point. The method she used was 'someone reaching a conclusion on another player based on little information'. Hiphop was guilty of that, as well.

Forget the specifics here, and just think about the criteria she is using there. Does that not seem backwards to you?

No. First, I'm not going to forget "specifics".

Exilon... comon man.

You are quizzing me on why i questioned esuri's judgment call... you didn't understand the point i was making when i included all the specific information, so i stripped the specifics out and just left the meat of the situation to try and get you to understand what i meant.

I'm not exactly sure what you are trying to get at with this line of questioning. I think you dont understand the point i was making about how she found my infraction less scummy than hiphop's infraction, even though his was worse.

Also, I'm not judging her, I'm judging you. Is your defense asking me to look at her, to see what you see? That's diverting attention instead of defending yourself.

??

Of course

i would have to ask you to look at her actions, so you would understand why i said what i did.

That's not diverting attention.

That's a false analogy. The answer is: Because you're not the same person, and didn't make the same post. That would be a valid question if you and hiphop had done the same things and she had aknowledged that and still provided different tells. But that's just not the case.

My point was that we DID do the same thing. We both reached a conclusion about another player based on little information, and her judgment was seemingly biased.

In her point of view, she hadn't really posted any kind of informative post / meaningful information, which is what she stated. Yet:

I based my comment off of meaningful information.

It is assumed that esuri has reviewed other players posts up to that point. In doing so, she would have realized that i voiced my opinion based on that information

-- so there would be no need for me to elaborate on it. If i read something and it 'sounds town', then what is there for me to elaborate on? Remember that this was just an off the cuff jotted note... not some hugely important decision.

She realized that, what she didn't realize is that you had found the post informative. In fact, she states the contrary. Yet, in your whole "Eusrio's POV" post, you act as if she knew that - which isn't true. This is what I have been trying to say.

First of all, it isn't a matter of IF she had posted anything meaningful, it was how much.

But the point wasn't whether or not i found her post informative, it was the fact that her post was SOMETHING meaningful, rather than there being NOTHING meaningful from exilon. This is a fact.

Your paraphrasing isn't accurate, and im not sure it changes my point.

Why isn't it accurate? Please explain. Better yet, why don't we ask the lady herself?

Let's just say it's accurate.

Your paraphrasing of it doesn't change the point i was making.

No, I don't believe you distort.

Ok.

Not purposefully, at least.

That contradicts your previous statement. Reference something you think is a distortion, and i can try to clear it up.

However, you have made a little one or two misudnerstandings,

And? Is that a crime?

and are quite guilty of some fallacies in your reasoning,

Let me know if the explanations i have provided for what you viewed as fallacies weren't sufficient.

besides some attention diversions.

I haven't diverted attention.

[podium123456]

@podium in post 111 - What kind of punchline were you expecting?

I don't know. That's why i asked.

I think podium needs to do more scumhunting because a large portion of his posting has been defending himself.

I agree. I'll post some scumhunt stuff soon... have just been to preoccupied with defending.


-----------------------------------------------------------------

Greendude, doomcow, and (kind of) Deer --- LETS

GO

already...

[podium123456]

Okay, have been reading along.

TLJ has resolved a lot of my accusations about not posting material of substance, which is good. However, you remain in character, so you have to understand that personally that makes me uneasy, due to the reasons i have already listed. Am i saying that that is an 'obvious-maf' thing? No... just that it keeps me uneasy and on guard... at least for now.

However, this really caught my eye:

The Judgment

>Guilty: esurio, hiphop, Green
>Innocent: podium, Wick, Exilon, Seacore, Tang

Really? Tang 'innocent'? From my POV Tang looked extremely scummy by joining the BW on you... especially with the reasons he gave. I find it hard to believe that you would disregard all of that, and proclaim him 'innocent' ... especially when you believed that he was bandwagoning, as you did in post xx. I really don't understand why he wouldn't be on your radar at that point.

Perhaps you realized your maf partner just made a really scummy move, and you wanted to try and neutralize the FOS's that you thought would start flying in? (as they did) Dunno. I just find it a really odd move.

I feel like i have my vote on maf, and i am not changing it at this time. (TLJ)


Master Tang - Add me to the group that thinks your vote on TLJ was really scummy. You essentially popped out of the woodwork to place a 5th vote on a player, with shaky at best / hypocritical at worst reasoning... then you almost as quickly remove it. Your contributions since the vote have been much better than they were previous, but at the time, that just felt like a really really maf move. As i alluded to above, i'm mulling over the possibility of a tang/tlj team due to the interactions between you two.

FOS: Master Tang

SSBF - thanks for jumping in!

Seacore - It does

feel

like you have been somewhat erratic with your voting. I realize you said you like to get BW's going on D1, and i agree... but with your other accusations (as well as this new one on SSBF) it feels like you toss FOS's around frequently. However, without doing too much thinking about it, i don't see how that is necessarily a bad thing.

Greendude/deer - Both you guys are in the running for my lurkymaf role award right now. Deer, you have popped in and spoken quite a bit... to not really have said much of anything so far. And greendude, the same can be said of you... except you havent really popped in a lot. Your post 134 was almost laughable at some of the lines in it. Like:

And what stances do people have on certain people?

I mean, really... what the heck kind of a question is that to ask at this point???

[podium123456]

Perhaps it is just the language you have been using... like i said, it just

feels

that way. Maybe your discussions with Deer and Wicked felt more 'FOS'y' than 'not helping the town'y'. ...if that makes sense.

[podium123456]

Regarding Master Tang, I don not recall accusing him of bandwagoning but, rather, comparing his exaggeration to Seacore's bandwagoning in defending him. By that, I meant that one godly motivation for it may have been him seeking to move us to a more fruitful phase.

I'm not sure i understand what you are saying here. I was referring to this quote of yours:

Tang: I see what you are doing and it is righteous, but take care to heed the sixth commandment, lest you be mistaken for one of Pilot's men when I am hung up on Cavalry.

It sounds like you are implying that he is bandwagoning with his vote. Were you, or weren't you? Also, did you not find any reasoning in his vote post that seemed flimsy/hypocritical?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If there is anything I've somehow missed or you would like me to look at closer, feel free to point it out to me.

Esurio can you respond to my accusation that you penalized me much harsher than Hiphop, when his infraction was worse than mine?

('Infraction' meaning reaching a conclusion on a player based on little information)

[podium123456]

Technically, it's not really an FoS. If it was, then I would have said he's looking scummy.

This sounds like someone trying to twist the facts around a little, using semantics. You called him a 'suspect'... so the natural implication is that you thought he looked scummy. Yet here, you try to argue that's not what you meant. Following this logic, it would mean that people you 'suspect' aren't scummy. That doesn't make any sense.

...and 'suspect' is technically more of a FoS than 'looks scummy' IMO. ...if u want to get 'technical' about it.

All of the other problems i had with your posts have been raised by other players, so i wont repeat them.

However, you havent addressed esurios observation in post 157 that you appear to be playing safe and covering ALL the bases with your language. Nor have you addressed Seacores question in post 147 - are we to assume that you had a town read on all other players? Because that's what it sounded like you were saying.

[podium123456]

what does AtE mean? It isn't in the wiki under that abbreviation.

[podium123456]

If something I have said is unclear to you, you need only pray for understanding.

Yeah, because if you ask him for clarification on something, you might be met with:

I feel as if you will continue to question me on this matter and would rather you didn't.

Which is just a real big help when you're trying to figure things out.

[podium123456]

Podium: I do apolgize for that. If I am still alive when it is appropriate for me to explain in detail, I will do so unprompted.

Why would it not be appropriate for you to explain it now? It's a simple question, and i am confused by both of your responses (they both say the same thing, basically, even though you thought i was talking about something else the first time you responded). Were you not accusing him of bandwagoning? It looks like you are. It does not make sense to me that you would accuse him of BW'ing (on you, no less), breaking one of your 'commandments', and then judge him innocent.

Due to your gameplay, i had been considering moving on to other targets... but when you tell me to basically stop asking you about an issue, it sends up red flags. Is it because i dont understand your point, or is it because you recognize a misstep and dont want to have to try and explain it?

[podium123456]

Hiphop:

I have a gut feeling that Hiphop is tunneling on Exilon for some reason. Upon doing an ISO, i realized that he appears to mainly be voting Exilon due to the circumstances surrounding Exilon's unvote on me. Yet Esurio did almost the exact same thing, and Hiphop never mentioned it. Odd. And it corresponds with an earlier accusation (from Esurio) that Hiphop was reaching hard to put a non-RVS vote on someone.

Hiphop, you are slowly rising on my scum-meter. Please explain why you considered Exilon's unvote on me so scummy, and never mentioned it when Esurio did almost the exact same thing.

------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------

Viewing Hiphop in that light, leads me to consider other teams. Upon reading more ISO's i noticed this.

TLJ places a vote on Hiphop in post 84 using one of his patented 'wait... huh? oh... ok.. i think i understand... wait, what?' arguments. In post 98, he re-iterates that Hiphop has 'broken one of his fathers commandments'. Then in post 102 with NO RESPONSE from Hiphop, he removes his vote and places it on someone else. Bussing hiphop perhaps?

Fast forward to where we are now in the game. Hiphop makes his case against exilon, using what i consider to be a biased reason. In post 199 TLJ

agrees

with Hiphop that the unvote was odd... yet he COMPLIMENTED Esurio for the same type of behavior in post 161.

Something smells to me. I dont think TLJ is a person that would remove a vote off someone that has 'broken a commandment' without SOME reply. But, i could be wrong about that. However, i certainly dont think TLJ is the type of player that would not realize that Hiphop didn't say anything to Esurio when she did the same thing that Exilon did. TLJ seems to be VERY sharp and VERY tuned in to this game, and has been calling out players for this same type of behavior. But doesn't here.

Care to address that TLJ?

[podium123456]

TCC - Why are you being so cautious/timid? We are 9 pages in, and you have essentially not placed a vote yet.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------

SSBF - As i mentioned earlier, I feel like we have been getting a lot of double talk from you. Along with a heavy dose of AtE comments like this one:

I have absolutely nothing to hide from you guys and that is a promise.

Sorry man, but stuff like that just reeks. Seacore has made a compelling case, and others have joined in as well. I feel taking it at least to L-1 for a claim is probably where this is headed. No need to drag it out longer than neccessary.

UNVOTE

VOTE: SSBF

[podium123456]

Esurio did not do the same thing. Esurio is actually voting for someone who she thinks is scummy. When she unvoted you, it was because she found someone scummier, yet she still fos, because she still suspected you, though not as much as the person that is she is voting for. Exilion unvote you, why?

.

Ok, i hear what you are saying with the not voting for someone else part.

However... if you do not understand the difference between where esurio removed her vote from you and where Exilon did, then I fear you have not read the case against Exilon closely enough.

How hard is it to say, "it's because he didn't vote for anyone else"... if that's what you are referring to? And you can save the clever philosophical retort.

Also I find it rude (aside from the possible scumminess of it) that, when someone is confused about something, you refuse to help clear it up. Whatever. As you make your bed, yadda yadda yadda.

[podium123456]

sighhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[podium123456]

The Judgment

>Guilty: Super Smash, Tang, Green
>Innocent: podium, Wick, Seacore, hiphop, Deer

Podium: Patience is a virtue. When the time is right and I have explained myself fully, you will agree that my silence was golden. And that time may be drawing near.

Hahaha. Well... i guess i'll give u a few points for not being a jerk, but that doesn't overcome the deficit acquired from being cryptic.

which makes me think he is trying to avoid having to take a stance.

What?? I certainly wouldn't accuse seacore of avoiding having to take a stance, based on his votes and language -- and i doubt anyone else here would as well. You really think he has avoided taking stances? It feels like you are really stretching things to make this argument. Which makes me ask myself, 'why'?

If you are only referring to the time period at which the posts you referenced occurred, then:

A. Why mention it now, if you have seen his activity since then.

B. At that time, most of the players had failed to say anything of substance... so why would you single out seacore with this accusation?

EBWOP: Also not really liking the people on the wagon.

That's a possible scum-line that falls right in with Deer's 'interesting' post, due to all the reasons seacore gave. it is vague and lacks information, and can easily be molded to fit an argument in the future, if the need arises.

WHY dont you like the people on the wagon? Is it because it is at L-1 and someone could hammer prematurely? Is it because it's a full wagon, and full wagons are suspicious? Is it certain players on the wagon that may be working together, or an individual with malicious intent?

Stop reading into it lie it's some secret scum joke.

Master Tang, forum mafia.

Forum mafia, Master Tang.

I'll give you guys a few minutes to get acquainted.




------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------

UNOVOTE
VOTE: TheLordJesus

SSBF, we need a claim please.

[podium123456]

I guess i'll add that currently i have SSBF and MT tied at #2 on my scum list. MT had begun redeeming himself after the TLJ vote, based on his conversations, but all that was negated with the SSBF vote. Just another poor move, IMO... from either faction, really.

TLJ remains my top suspect, but im aware that my POV (based on our 1 to 1 conversations) may be distorting his image slightly. A lot of my reason for having him at #1 is due to the cryptic nature of some of his responses... but no one else appears to be alarmed by this... so perhaps i am reading too much into it.

...and then, of course, there is our wildcard Greendude I don't know what the protocol there is... it's either a maf flying under the radar (successfully), or an extremely non-helpful townie... so how do you handle it? Perhaps opposingforce can shed some light on that situation.

[podium123456]

EBWOP:

Wickedestjr - I wanted to get your total case on Seacore, and did an ISO on you. In doing so, i saw that what i referenced in my above post was a repeat of a question you asked back then and never got an answer to. So that answers my question as to why you brought it up now.

I have opinions regarding the other questions you want answered, but i guess i'll let seacore speak for himself. As far as my opinion on seacore... well i haven't really found anything overly scummy... save for my natural wariness of anyone that seems to take charge prematurely and/or be overly assertive.

But, do you believe that (with allllll that has went on) seacore is the scummiest of all choices... all (seemingly) based on what transpired following your odd attempt at a joke?

IMO there are much better candidates for scum, and i wonder why you dont think so... as a matter of fact, prior to your post today, you hadn't even FOS'd anyone else - besides calling me and TCC suspicous near the start of the game. (With me, you have later backed off of that claim... with TCC, you didn't give any reason why you called her suspicious at the time u said it, and haven't mentioned it since.)

Even today, 'im getting a bad vibe' (concerning hiphop) is kind of vague, and you merely pointed out a few suspicious posts made by players. You have asked a lot of questions, but have responded to few of those replies... and haven't said much about anyone else except Seacore, in terms of your opinion of their alignment.

Just an observation of mine.


p.s. - who is in your avatar?

[podium123456]

Podium, having TLJ as your personal top lynch suspect is good, we don't all need to agree. But the cryptic nature of his posts is probably not a good reason for him to be there.

To clarify... when i said cryptic, i was specifically referring to the comments he made in posts 191 and 231, where he tells me he has additional information that may explain himself better... but remains silent now, for a reason that i will understand in the future.

[podium123456]

I'm on the fence between a MT lynch, and a SSBF one. MT's actions speak louder than SSBF's words... to a certain extent IMO. But SSBF has turned quiet since claiming... not defending. I also would have expected SSBF to claim a PR if he was in fact mafia, and he didnt. But, that's wifom stuff.

But, if we get another wagon up on MT, it will lead to another claim. At that point we face the possibility of revealing a PR, or if village, narrowing down mafia's choices for their PR hunt. Also, time is a factor as we are only days away from deadline, and i'm not sure we could get the necessary votes for a MT lynch as it stands right now.

With that, i cast my vote.

UNVOTE
VOTE: Super Smash Bros. Fan

[podium123456]

quite a lot of replacements so far

[podium123456]

Deer has asked you a question. Therefore, I will hold the hammer until it has come in.
Night-time should be enough for the replacements to come in, I hope.

If you're talking about post 311, that question was directed at TLJ.

[podium123456]

@Podium: .... hum. Yeah. What about it?

You said you were holding off on the hammer until SSBF answered Deer's question. I don't see where Deer has a question for SSBF outstanding.

[podium123456]

Unbelievable.

First of all, what the F was up with SSBF not claiming? Unless that is some type of obscure strategy that im not aware of, there would have been NO reason for him not to claim... right? then why the heck didn't he? being a troll/griefer? nah i dont think so, based on his posts.... but man... i really dont know why he didn't claim.

then two night kills... i dont even know how that's possible. can someone tell me what might have happened?

[podium123456]

EBWOP: After reading the wiki on killers, i guess what happened is that we have a vigilante or serial killer... or something like that.

[podium123456]

From Jesus to Fabio... lol. I hear you on your reason for being cryptic about MT.

hmmm... ok, well. some thoughts i guess. MT was definitely my next choice after SSBF... but now that role is out of the equation... so back to the drawing board.

As an observation, i noticed that seacore seems to be very pushy with his language at times -- 'we are lynching ssbf today'... 'who's in greendude's slot? i want him dead'... 'i'm definitely not scummy enough for a lynch'... etc. When no one is clear to lead, self appointed shot-callers are going to get second looks... at least from me. And, as DC noted, seacore has never shied away from dropping 'i am town' lines occasionally. But like i said, those are just observations... he's not high on my list at all right now. That stuff is kind of too wifomy to base a call on, by themselves... could just be his playstyle.

Magnaofillusion is, of course, high on the suspect list.... because of greendudes non-existent posting. So, you're definately gonna have to start laying down some words today, to give us something to work with. Sooner better than later.

DC, when it was all said and done, your role looked really bad yesterday IMO. She posted a lot, and said a lot of strong things about other players... yet she never actually placed a vote. Her reason was 'i like to be conservative with my votes'... but the day expired without her placing one. But, perhaps that was due to her having to leave the game near the end of the day. Regardless, i'm keepin a close eye on you at this point.

Exilon... he just seems kinda nervous/touchy. LOL.. can i get away with saying that and not having to explain why... cause i dont really know why... just an overall feeling i got from yesterday. That's just an observation, doesn't mean anything one way or the other right now. And, I did get what hiphop/TLJ were talking about regarding his unvote on me, after i reread things. Don't know how i feel about that action.

Today, my biggest scum needle is pointing at wicked. Just weird playing from him yesterday, as a whole IMO. Most of which i outlined in my ISO 29 (to which he never responded to... seems to be a trend of his).

From his activity/language/exp. at the start of the day, i was expecting him to be a leader in the scum hunting... but then he got hung up on that stuff at the very start of the day with seacore and, oddly, stayed with it till the end. Only after several people started talking about it, did he remove his vote from seacore... and then placed it on Deer for lack of contributing. ...but, if that was his criteria, greendude (or maybe even TCC) would have seemed a

much

better choice for his vote. Also, 'lack of contributing' seems an odd reason for a vote at the end of the day, when there was so much questionable actions/language available in the thread from other players.

I think wicked can stand some pressure today.

VOTE: Wickedestjr

[podium123456]

I figured it would make you shit your pants if you're the arsonist.

'You' meaning wicked, or 'you' meaning whoever is the arsonist?

And why would that make them go poopy?

May not finish tonight but I'll keep up on current affairs. Off the top of my head, I'm guessing that Exilon is the arsonist,

You still believe there is an arsonist, even after the mod's PSA (post 341)?

As seacore pointed out, if an arsonist killed esurio, that means mafia killed MT... which would be a strange choice for them, IMO. I think it's more likely we have something like a vig.

[podium123456]

Just Wick. Last time I played with him, he was SK. I caught him and got him lynched pretty much single-handedly on D2.

just out of curiosity, do you have a link to that game? search is disabled. no biggie if it's a hassle to track down.

[podium123456]

^^ nice! we finally got a contributing player in this role.

I note your sig says that you have played almost 900 games of Chat Mafia. Is the concept of a Vigilante or Serial Killer completely foreign to that environment?

Yeah, i've only played one beginner game here, and for some reason, i was playing with the assumption that this was a plane jane game (2 maf, cop, doc/bg, village). So when i saw the 2 kills i was thinking it was a protecting role that died somehow... but the reveal said vanilla townie... and i was like.. wait a minute, if bg died or something it should say bg... do they do something different here?

When i went to the wiki to read about roles, i realized 'oops DUH... vig or SK or something' and edited my post. Twas a case of temporary ignorance/rusty mafia skills.

Ythill revealing himself has changed my impression of TLJ dramatically, as I didn't think TLJ was as experienced.

You didn’t see TLJ as an alt of an experienced player? His grasp of terminology and the manner in which he clearly spread his interactions around screamed ‘familiar with the game’ not ‘newb’ to me.

I missed this when i read over wickeds post... and it is a good point.

Wicked, why in the world would you think TLJ was inexperienced? It was obvious to me that it was either a skilled player that just joined, or an alt of an existing skilled player. Heck, he even had a list of mafia commandments...

...and since i'm on the topic of wicked...

I feel like you frequently sidestep observations/questions directed at you. For instance, in my last post i detailed out some things i found troubling about your play. I also wrote that you had failed to address these issues the first time i brought them up. Then i placed a vote on you. One might think you would get the hint that i wanted some explanations from you. But, instead, you made a player summary post and didn't even mention the problems i had with your play... again.

Ignoring my (and others) criticisms/questions certainly isn't going to make them go away.

[podium123456]

I don't really understand the conversation between TLJ and podium. What question did podium ask TLJ that TLJ didn't want to answer right away? Has Ythill answered the question yet?

He wouldn't answer me when i asked if he thought MT was bandwagoning on him. Later, he said it was because he thought MT was trying to appear scummy (to avoid a NK) because he was a PR.

[podium123456]

What?? I certainly wouldn't accuse seacore of avoiding having to take a stance, based on his votes and language -- and i doubt anyone else here would as well. You really think he has avoided taking stances? It feels like you are really stretching things to make this argument. Which makes me ask myself, 'why'?

If you are only referring to the time period at which the posts you referenced occurred, then:

B. At that time, most of the players had failed to say anything of substance... so why would you single out seacore with this accusation?

B. The point wasn't that he wasn't taking stances. It was that he seemed to be deliberately avoiding taking stances.

I think this argument is bogus.

We were barely out of RVS, most players hadn't said anything, and seacore was criticizing a couple of actions that he felt didnt help the town. How much more of a stance were you expecting him to take? To call them scum because of the actions he was criticizing? He said that he didnt think those actions made them scum.

So, how exactly was he 'avoiding taking a stance'?

But, do you believe that (with allllll that has went on) seacore is the scummiest of all choices... all (seemingly) based on what transpired following your odd attempt at a joke?

He wasn't my biggest suspect at the time, but you don't always have to vote your top suspect.

I'm sorry, but i think that is a

very

weak answer to your actions.

We were HOURS away from the deadline and you're telling me that having your vote on the person you didnt think was scum, was the way to go at that point? And how in the hell would you ever get town to vote off who you think is scummy if you never tell us, and never vote them?

Am i the only one that thinks that is just preposterous?

1: Even today, 'im getting a bad vibe' (concerning hiphop) is kind of vague, and 2: you merely pointed out a few suspicious posts made by players. 3: You have asked a lot of questions, but have responded to few of those replies... 4: and haven't said much about anyone else except Seacore, in terms of your opinion of their alignment.

4: Limited time.

Another BS answer, IMO. You had time to make all those posts/summaries that you did, but never had time to slip in an alignment call for anyone other than seacore? I'm not buying it.

-------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------

I think that wicked knew that SSBF was going to flip town and didnt want to be on the vote. In post 244, he outlines several scummy things that SSBF did, and in post 249 he specifically calls him town. (i'd have to doublecheck, but he may be the ONLY person that thought SSBF was town... how convenient)

Also, i think that he deliberately avoided taking stances on players -- ironic, no? Difference is, i think your D1 play clearly shows that, and Seacores actions at the time you made that accusation dont.

Lots of questions, and the appearance of scum hunting... but hardly any alignment calls. It just doesnt add up, to me, when considering his experience/activity. I feel good about where my vote is.

[podium123456]

[*]Wicked: He started strong but got sloppy near the end of the day. I believe he got busy and I do hope he gets caught up before he ends up distracting people. To those attacking him, iso him and look at the strength of his early stances.

Early stances? In his ISO 7, he says that his main suspects are myself, TCC, and seacore -- yet he doesnt say anything about why he suspected myself or TCC. In ISO 9 he says the person you are convinced is scum, is town... and says that i look town. He then spends the rest of the day looking like he is scum hunting, without making any calls.

What are you pointing to that is so strong?

Exilon quotes his defense of the SSBF again in #235, goes for a little V/LA and... comes back to post #302: two ugly IoA points and an ad populum argument which supposedly justify his change of heart and decision to lynch SSBF (the real reason was pressure from Secore and TLJ).

Mmmm i'll tell ya, i dont really know about the exilon thing right now. I'm getting more of a null feel from him, than a scummy one. I tried to process your case, but i had a hard time taking it all in... i'll probably re-read it a few times.

I feel like the answers he gave to your questions about his activities sounded plausible and genuine... as opposed to the (seemingly) pointless answers i got back from wicked. (as i outlined above)

The biggest scum moves i feel out of your argument, is his move from calling SSBF town, to coming back from V/LA and being ready to hammer him. But the thing is, if that bothers me, then Seacores recent activity is actually worse than that, IMO. Exilon actually made an effort to argue why SSBF is scum, intertwining his thoughts, along with the towns. Seacore came back and went from not having Exilon in his sights at all to being prepared to lynch him... and the

only

reason he gives is that your case sounded good.

I'll continue to look into exilon's case (admittedly, i havent spent much time on it). In the meantime, can you tell me how you feel about Seacores vote on exilon? Considering that part of your case (that he used for a reason for voting Ex) is actually what he did... if i'm not mistaken.

Seacore - Why shouldnt i get the feeling that you are more interested in lynching whoever is most likely for town to lynch, instead of who you think is the scummiest?

Deer - Probably moving from susp. to null here. His early posts were pretty much worthless, but since he was called out on it, i feel he is contributing decently. the brevity of his responses are still a concern of mine... it wouldn't take much to send the needle back the other way.

DC - until we see some substance, probably in my 2nd or 3rd position right now. this question may have been asked already... but is anyone familiar with TCC's playstyle? would she normally behave the way she did yesterday, or was it out of place?

Magna - i like the meat in your posts so far. havent spent a lot of time yet analyzing your stuff, as far as to how i think you are aligned.

Rank - i really dont know what to think about this role at this point. hope he starts contributing.

[podium123456]

What are you pointing to that is so strong?

What you found, plus the early aggressive attack of Seacore, not liking attacks on TLJ for being in-character, and an attack on Master Tang in iso 9.

It may not have come across, but i was being sarcastic with what i listed. I thought the stuff i listed was weaksauce.

Disregarding the discussion with Seacore, i dont find anything notable about the stances he took. IMO

I don't see Wick-scum making that many enemies in the first part of D1.

That's part of my problem with him... lots of impressive questions and posturing, but never any risk -- by following through with alignment calls or whatever. Fluff. (minus the seacore thing) Hell, he didn't even respond to most of the answers he received...

Podium, why ask for meta on TCC rather than looking it up yourself?

Pshhh, every time i think i will read a game i havent played in on this site, i open it up and after about the 3rd page past RVS i go 'WHO THE F WRITES THIS MUCH CRAP??? -- forget this!'. LOL. I feel sorry for anyone who tries to get through some of the walls of text i've written in my games. haha.

[podium123456]

@podium – Why the sudden disinterest in Ythill as a suspect? TLJ was your top suspect before the SSBF lynch. Are you intimidated by his veteran status

Most of my initial suspicion was based on the annoyance of his TLJ character, which subsided once i saw the kind of input he was contributing. Near the end of the day, the only thing that bothered me (which was a big thing) was his refusal to answer my question. That was resolved.

Right now, i dont really have a problem with him. His veteran status makes me more wary than if he had stayed TLJ, though, because now i guess that he is probably pretty good at faking town... so it gives me a healthy skepticism.

I am paying attention to the interaction between him and Seacore, however. They have both been aggressive, neither has said much about the other, and it feels like they are working together. Just something i have noticed.

[podium123456]

I think this argument is bogus.

We were barely out of RVS, most players hadn't said anything, and seacore was criticizing a couple of actions that he felt didnt help the town. How much more of a stance were you expecting him to take? To call them scum because of the actions he was criticizing? He said that he didnt think those actions made them scum.

So, how exactly was he 'avoiding taking a stance'?

I was expecting him to give some kind of opinion on those things that was actually helpful such as "I find that a bit scummy" or "I think that looks townish". I was certainly not expecting him to say something like "He's scum for doing this." I have already explained why I think he is avoiding taking a stance.

I understand WHY you think he would avoid taking a stance. My point is HOW was he avoiding a stance? He said those things 'dont help town'... which is pretty darn close to 'i find that a bit scummy'. Close enough so that i think you are stretching to make that accusation.

I'm sorry, but i think that is a very weak answer to your actions.

We were HOURS away from the deadline and you're telling me that having your vote on the person you didnt think was scum, was the way to go at that point? And how in the hell would you ever get town to vote off who you think is scummy if you never tell us, and never vote them?

Am i the only one that thinks that is just preposterous?

I doubted my ability to persuade everybody when it was close to deadline, I wasn't caught up, and I hadn't made a case on my main suspect.

So you just keep your main suspect (and your case for it) to yourself... and if you die during the night, we never get that information. Thanks.


-----------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------

I'm pretty firm with my vote on wicked... the more he answers questions, the scummier i find him. It seems like he is on a lot of other players short lists as well. I would like to see him lynched today.

However, if that doesn't happen i would likely support a DC lynch.

[podium123456]

exilon, i thought your self vote was accidental until i read your latest post. i dont like what u just did, and your reason for doing it. it gives me the impression of someone who is panicked and making desperate attempts to stay alive using wild logic/play.

and i dont like this whole case you are trying to build against ythill... it looks like some serious omgus. which seems to be your trademark.

exilon's needle moves towards scum here.

[podium123456]

-The first example he says he thinks I'm an idiot but not scum. This is not an opinion relevant to the goal of the game.

-He says he thinks deer is being unhelpful, but in post 56 specifically states he doesn't think it is scummy of deer.

So, he hasn't actually given any helpful opinions.

My point (that i think you are missing) is what more do you want him to say? He viewed 2 actions that he thought weren't helping the town... and said so.

How can he 'avoid taking a stance', if he sees nothing to take a stance over?

I guess (for your argument to work) you think he should have said 'oh i think you are acting reallllly scummy there' -- but what if he doesnt think it was scummy? Then he is being penalized for no reason, that i can see. If he said all there was to say about it, what more do you want?

[podium123456]

Notice when Exilon's self vote came? When a DC vote went down. Maybe he was worried about legit arguments on his scum buddy being made, so decided to try and end the day faster.

I can see this happening... he knew he was likely to be lynched, and knows that the more time that goes by, the worse DC is going to look... so he tries to end the day quickly (or at least shift the discussion to his wild behavior instead of the DC discussion that was imminent).

i really dont see any reason why he wouldnt have tried to get a DC lynch together... it would clearly be a possibility, as the town is somewhat split on an exilon vote. but he went with that dumb self vote, and desperate case on ythill. in 444 he states that he doesnt think ythill is scum, and that magna is his top suspect. his next post, 460, details his case for magna. then all of a sudden (with no input from magna) he drops the magna route, and starts with his self vote and calling ythill scum.

exilon and DC are tied on my scum meter right now.

[podium123456]

hey channel. i dont know about your other 2 questions, but if you want to save some sanity, you can pretty much skip any discussions between myself and exilon on pages 4-5.

[podium123456]

I want him to give some kind of game-relevant opinion. Players giving stances on eachother are how we find connections between players or find out what players are thinking. I was certainly not asking him to take such a strong stance, but an opinion such as "I find that a bit scummy" or "I find that a bit townish." I have stated this plenty of times.

And i stated the first time you said that: "that doesn't help the town" is pretty much the same thing as "i find that a bit scummy". Yet you are penalizing him for not specifically saying the words you think he should have said. You are really stretching to make that argument.

[podium123456]

podium, he specifically said that he didn't think he was scum for it though.

This comment shows me that you are getting caught arguing something you can't justify, and is the closest sign i've seen all game of an absent minded scum mistake.

If he specifically said he wasn't scum, then he is taking a much firmer stance than what you said would be required to avoid the argument (i find that townish/scummish)

As a matter of fact, i remember reading his line about you when he made it (i dont think he's scum, i think he's an idiot) and thinking to myself it was a bold statement to make at that point in the game.

-------------------------
-------------------------

Additionally, so what if he said he didn't think he was scum... that doesn't change my point.

Can a townie do something that is anti-town? Yes. Would that action necessarily be described as 'scummy' if it's assumed that it wasn't intentional? No, it would just be an anti-town action.

Therefore, there was no additional stance he could have taken besides what he stated.

[podium123456]

prod avoidance while we wait for hero/cdb posts.

[podium123456]

Are we really headed for a D2 deadline lynch? Pitiful. This town needs to grow a pair.

That's a little harsh, considering the circumstances.

I'm obviously not going to see wicked lynched today, nor DC. I don't think NL is a good move here, and as i stated earlier, i find exilon equal to DC... so i'm not opposed to the lynch. I'm not afraid of the hammer, if it was needed.

However, we are waiting on an analysis from CDB, and if nothing changes, exilon will be lynched tomorrow by default. I see no need to end the day without hearing from CDB, when there's only one more day to the deadline.

[podium123456]

^^ Translation: Everyone should do what I want, even though i'm not clear. If you don't do what i want, it means you don't want to win.

Forgive me for wanting to try and get something out of 2 roles that have said virtually nothing this entire day. Obviously, the best move would be to hammer asap and prevent them from providing us with that info.

/sarcasm

p.s. - just because no one joined me with votes on wicked (although several list him as suspect), it doesn't mean i didn't try to 'build a wagon'. I think i made a pretty good case against him, but no one followed.

[podium123456]

Mmhm...

[podium123456]

Also, it is probably LyLo right now. Time for mass claim?

Hell, i can probably answer that for you right now... 1 vig/sk and 6 villagers.



and.... now that i think about it, there's probably no need in outing the vig (if it's a vig)... its the only advantage we have left.


arent you experienced enough to realize all this? or am i missing something with my thoughts here?

[podium123456]

edit: after seeing that you have been in 10 games, you are more than experienced enough to realize what i wrote. So, unless my reasoning is off, i think asking for a mass claim in this situation is a pretty bullsh%& move.

Some off the cuff thoughts here:

Wicked: I still regard him as a top scum pick... scummy play overall, and his rebuttals have been the weakest of anyone, by far. Also, asking for mass claim here hurts town, IMO. The only thing going for him is that he hasn't resorted to OMGUS.

(Also, if he was maf, i would expect him to want to kill his biggest opponent (me) and that hasn't happened. But that is very wifomy and not really factoring into my analysis of him.)

Deer: I havent iso'd him recently, but i dont recall any of his input striking me as being overly scummy. However, he seems to pride himself on brevity and i dont feel the same. Brevity is useful when you use it to keep arguments short... but when your overall input is thin, i feel it is detrimental to town. Allows him to play safe as mafia, and, if town, it prevents us from scumhunting for slips, etc.

CDB: Sigh. Either play or get out. Based on TCC's play d1, i call this a strong scum pick. So be it.

Ythill/Seacore: i am much more susp. of these two today. i noted earlier that i felt like they were working together. seacores d2 play seemed different than d1 play. Seacore is the scummier between the two, IMO. Ythill has come off as pro town, but his experience keeps me on guard. Dont know... will have to review things.

Hiphop/Hero: another sigh. another play or get out. who knows. i dont recall hiphop being that scummy to me. So be it.

[podium123456]

At this point, we don't want the vig/SK shooting unless it's a guarenteed hit anyway. Massclaim gives us several advantages: revealing the second killer narrows the pool for mislynch and forces the mafia to kill that player tonight.

Hmmm, i suppose that's right. Due to the circumstances, a vig isn't going to shoot... so that role is more useful to us as a clear, than as a killer.

I retract all that stuff i said previously, and wicked you dont have to respond to it.

[podium123456]

@Deer & podium:

Neither of you responded to my bloc suggestion. We can include our least likely scum candidate after massclaim and control the lynch for the rest of the game, but we have to work together. Are you interested?

Oh, i thought you were making a joke.

Mmmmm... i suppose so.

--------------------------
--------------------------

Vote: Seacore

translation: im scum

----------------------------
----------------------------

YO... HERO....

say

something.

[podium123456]

1: If he specifically said he wasn't scum, then he is taking a much firmer stance than what you said would be required to avoid the argument (i find that townish/scummish)

1: My goodness! He said he didn't think we were scum

for our actions

. He wasn't saying he didn't think we were scum. He was saying he didn't find us suspicious at all for our actions.

Actually, he flat out said he didnt think you were scum. Later, he stated he had a null read on you. (which are stances) Additionally, he pointed out things you two did that were anti-town.

Look, i get your point... you think he should have called yourself or deer suspicious because you did a suspicious thing. I think that isn't a valid argument, see the end of this post for yet another explanation.

2: As a matter of fact, i remember reading his line about you when he made it (i dont think he's scum, i think he's an idiot) and thinking to myself it was a bold statement to make at that point in the game.

2: The only stance he is taking when he made that statement was that he thought I was an idiot. Which isn't even game relevant. That statement didn't tell us anything about what he thought my allignment was. He's even admitted that. What is so bold about that statement?

Oh, i dont know... maybe the part where he said he didnt think you were scum. What in the hell did you think i was referring to? Seriously.

I dont like the way you argue. It doesn't feel genuine.

See my response to 490.

I'll repeat the questions. Can a townie do something that is anti town? Does that mean that person should always be considered suspicious, based on that action?

You are trying to pin a scum argument on seacore on what is essentially a subjective observation -- but you are requiring him to adopt

your

subjectivity. Example: look at my summary post above. I imply that i dont think deer is scum, and then i say that i think brevity is detrimental to the town.

Apparently you think i should FOS him because i pointed out something he was doing that i thought didnt help the town. But i dont find him suspicious because of that. But you are going to penalize me for not thinking he is. But i dont. repeat to infinity.

----------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------

IMO, unless CDB is unable to read, he was aware people wanted thoughts/claims from him when he made his vote post. Based on his previous lack of posting i'm not going to hold my breath and wait 2 weeks for a claim that never comes. So, if we want to mass claim, i say we go ahead. How do you guys want to proceed?

Also:

VOTE: ChannelDelibird

Seems painfully obvious that he is scum now. A townie wouldnt read all the requests for his inputs, and then make a post like that. Even if he wasn't that into the game (due to replacing) he would say

something

if he was town.

[podium123456]

Interesting stuff wicked. Perhaps if you had played like you have today, before today, you wouldn't be in

quite

the pickle you are in. But you didn't.

I would like to know how you can look at post 540 and say that looks like a town move. That blows my feeble mind. Please explain.

[podium123456]

EBWOP: YT snuck in on me.



Ummm ok, i guess. I assume i understand how a 'bloc' might work... i just thought this looked like a no-brainer and went ahead and voted... based on the reasons i gave.

unvote

[/b]

[podium123456]

Wow. Surprising that my top two scumspects both claimed vig, lol. Gotta think a little here.

YT - out of curiosity, who did you have picked as vig?

When he said he didn't think I was scum, that didn't mean he thought I was town. It meant he didn't think I was scum at that point. He wasn't giving his read on me. He was simply stating he didn't think I was scum.

Well, if he doesn't think you are scum, then what do you think he thinks you are? The Good Humor Man?

A townie should ask questions and pressure the player that did the strange action.

He did.

Yes, a townie can do something anti-town. No, a person doesn't always have to be suspicious of an anti-town action.

TY

/discussion

[podium123456]

Podium, there is no thinking required in this situation. TCC wasn't around night 1 and she was replaced right after Night 1 ended. Also, TCC didn't even show suspicion of MT. I quoted her only comment regarding MT and it's a positive one if anything.

Yes, i know. That stuff isn't 100%, though. TCC barely said anything about anyones alignments... its plausible that she wanted to use her shot, and went for a popular backup scum candidate.

And it's not like you had a big FOS on MT yourself... you asked him a couple of questions without giving any inkling of a read on him.

I'm also puzzled by your initial read on CDB, and by things you have said like this:

Town has many good reasons to vote somebody without giving any reasons.

I don't recall that i have ever heard anyone justify a vote with no additional commentary. Especially with the circumstances like we had there. He knew people were requesting information from him.

YT - You didn't question CDB's vig claim in your post after it. Did you think it was genuine? You also didn't question his vote post yesterday. What was your opinion of that move. Do you think a townie would do that? Note that i'm not necessarily questioning your play here, mostly looking for what you think about his activity.

[podium123456]

Vanilla.

[podium123456]

I'm short on time here, but ill throw a few things down.

It does appear that DC replaced TCC at the start of N1, so TCC's comments on MT aren't that relevant.

YT had a good catch with the bolded stuff above where wicked seems to contradict his stance on MT. I'm undecided on CDB vs. wicked at the moment. If it weren't for CDB's seacore vote post, i would probably be leaning against wicked. But it's hard for me to ignore CDB's action, in addition to how TCC played D1.

I feel like wicked has made a trail of scummy play thus far... the kind you have to keep a sharp eye on to uncover, and CDB has made blatantly scummy play... the kind that screams at you.

---------------------------
---------------------------

Seacore is not looking good here, IMO. One of the most troubling aspects is how he followed you on exilon. If you read his play, he didn't really suspect exilon on D1. On D2 start he says that he is susp. of wicked and really wants to see greendude lynched. then you make your case on ex, and he jumps on it with both feet.

On day 2 I was a) satisfied from the get go that Exilon was the correct lynch and

You mean after YT made his case. From the 'get go', you weren't on Ex at all as far as i can see. Why did you completely abandon the person you stated you wanted dead?

edit: iso'd here a little and caught something. you said that if SSBF flipped town you would be on greendude/magna - if SSBF flipped town, not so much. SSBF flipped town, and your first post says that you want to see greendude/magna lynched. that dont jive.

The seacore/wicked interaction: It's plausible it was distancing. The argument was over a seemingly small issue, and has persisted all game. (admittedly i have kept it going with wicked, but wicked and seacore kept at it as well) Wicked seems to be on seacores case today, starting to build up a wagon by asking people what they think about seacore specifically. Seacores repeated statements about considering wicked for SK seem like odd play from him, and look like bussing.

the seacore/wicked interplay looks bad on seacore no matter which way wicked flips, imo.

thats all for now. i will be away from my pc until tomorrow evening.

[podium123456]

Also, i would like to see more commentary from Deer.

Oh, and welcome back hiphop.

[podium123456]

Remember my strong assumption that there was an SK? That came from me being a town RB.

you thought there were 3 mafia, a doctor, a cop, a town roleblocker, AND a serial killer in this setup? isn't that a little much for one of these games?

[podium123456]

EBWOP:

i made a mistake in my first post above

edit: iso'd here a little and caught something. you said that if SSBF flipped

MAFIA

you would be on greendude/magna - if SSBF flipped town, not so much. SSBF flipped town, and your first post says that you want to see greendude/magna lynched. that dont jive.

[podium123456]

Remember my strong assumption that there was an SK? That came from me being a town RB.

you thought there were 3 mafia, a doctor, a cop, a town roleblocker, AND a serial killer in this setup? isn't that a little much for one of these games?

Sorry, I missed this before.

a) I didn't know there was a doc until they showed up dead this morning.

In post 537 you made the 'why cant wicked be sk' claim. this was after it had been revealed that the doctor died.

[podium123456]

Basically, I'll wait to hear from the bloc.
I'll follow what they decide between Wicked and CDB, although I personally think CDB is the go.

Wow. I suppose next you are going to tell us that we all look like we have lost weight?

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Ok, wicked vs cdb.

I also find it peculiar that cdb could have faked the exact role that wicked has... but there is an advantage to faking one shot v, and if it is a role that pops up frequently it wouldn't be such a miracle that he hit the right role.

i think hip hops insinuation that they both might be vig's is redonkylus, so one of them is bad. while i have held wicked as a top suspect nearly all game, i'm not above second guessing myself. i have been impressed with wickeds play today, and i cant ignore how bad of a taste CDB put in my mouth today, on top of TCC's horrible D1 play. if i had to pick one of them to lynch, it would be CDB at this point.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Hiphop - i am quite puzzled by his aggressive play/vote/reasoning today, especially after it's assumed he read that it was requested non-bloc members hold off on voting. if nothing else, it gives me more confidence that the bloc is clean(er).

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Seacore - looking out from my POV, i believe i have the right read on my bloc-mates (there is a lot of material to examine from YT, and i have yet to see

any

flaws/missteps in his discussion, if he isn't town, he is a master at keeping his nose clean, deer remains in the same position i considered him earlier), and i feel more confident that this (Seacore) is a scum role.

i would say our lynch today is between one of the vig's and seacore. at this time, i would approach a seacore lynch with more confidence than choosing between CDB and wicked.

I'm leaning towards Podium being the other scum.

Based on?

Maybe on the fact that you thought town would obviously lynch one of the CC's, and when your lynch started to look more possible, you realized you needed to tarnish someone in the bloc for the next day... that you know would be coming? Fake-bus much?

[podium123456]

In post 537 you made the 'why cant wicked be sk' claim. this was after it had been revealed that the doctor died.

Which would be where b) comes into it...

Yep.

I was just pointing out that a) was a lie.

[podium123456]

YT, can you respond to what i wrote in post 575:

YT - You didn't question CDB's vig claim in your post after it. Did you think it was genuine? You also didn't question his vote post yesterday. What was your opinion of that move. Do you think a townie would do that?

[podium123456]

Or it wasn't.

Sorry, i said 'a lie' when i should have said 'a BS/non-logical reason' :

a) I didn't know there was a doc until they showed up dead this morning.

You brought up the possibility of there being a SK after you found out there was a doctor, so a) doesn't make any sense.

[podium123456]

What appears to be active misrepresentations

I dont even know what this means. Sounds fancy.

Are you referring to me saying you were lying, when you weren't? I explained my mistake above.

[podium123456]

1. it was agreed by ythill, you and deer not to vote. I do not see where i promised not to vote.

It was mentioned that anyone that wanted to be considered for joining the bloc, should hold off on voting before we do. If you really hadn't read that stuff (which is plausible), then your actions today don't look as odd.

Why is the bloc cleaner?

I have had a nullish read on your role. Seeing you do something suspicious improved the odds of scum residing outside of the bloc.

Podium and Ythill- Why is Deer town?

No contradictions/missteps/susp. activity that i can see. Sound reasoning.

Why can't he be scum?

No reason he couldn't. But right now he is less scummy than everyone except YT, from my POV.

You slot is suffering from being associated with a long line of lurkers, but i like your input since you rejoined.

[podium123456]

Is the bloc ready to vote?

I'm ready.

[podium123456]

So um...why the uh... delaying and the unimportant line about the wondering if ythill and Podium are ready?

Bloc protocol, per YT in post 553.

I'll bet you ythill lays down the first vote of you three.

Wrong.

VOTE: Seacore

Look... I like your reactions/input today, hiphop. But dont get caught up making bad arguments against people that have stated that other people are town. Like this one:

Oh and I love the contradiction. He is town, and there is no reason why he can't be scum. Floundering a little?

Remember that it is impossible for a townie to ever know 100% if someone is town or scum. Everyone is a suspect. Everyone. That means that reads can change if the situation dictates. Right now, i am confident that my reads are correct, and that we are making the right lynch.

grr...having doubts about Seacore.

Why the sudden doubt against someone you have such a strong read on? I see nothing besides typical scum responses to an impending lynch. If anything, i see scum that is too lazy (or too caught) to bother making solid cases against his lynch... and is essentially giving up.

[podium123456]

edit: ninja'd by deer

but i was still right that hiphop's bet was wrong

[podium123456]

Gah, I dieth!

check the votecount dude, you are still kicking.

[podium123456]

I have read the bloc protocol several times. What part are you referring too? You guys all agreed for the lynch to happen yet no vote from deer. Get the picture? That is the part I am referring too.

Oh. In that quote, you were talking to all three of us after the first part... i assumed you meant the first part to apply to all of us as well. Deer will have to answer that for you.

So anything, from anybody besides the two that I cleared helps. Hence my question that you quoted.

Well, i was saying that it isn't fair to accuse someone of floundering because they say there isn't a reason that one of their town picks couldn't be scum.

[podium123456]

Hey guys... like my new sig?

[podium123456]

Haha. Nicely played.

thank you.

... CDB ... and you're killing him tonight.

That's silly... why would we kill our roleblocker?

I guess i'll keep the identity of my third partner a secret and let him or the mod do it... dont wanna steal anyones glory...

[podium123456]

Heh, this was fun.

As you can see in the mafia chat, i thought town got screwed big time by ssbf not claiming. i wanted to kill greendude the lurker as a good sport gesture, but my scummates didn't want to. the funny thing is that if we had done that, it would have killed the doc... lol.

i was ticked off by the lack of discussion in the mafia chat... it was essentially non-existant... but things worked out. of course, i was pleased to see nearly everyone read me as town throughout the game. Hiphop, what did i say in post 615 that cleared me in your eyes?

And the only reason I have cleared you is because of something that you said in post 615.

i thought that wicked had the best reads in the game. obviously, cdb should have been lynched on d3... i was really surprised that we were able to shift on to seacore... hiphop helped a lot with that. it probably wouldnt have mattered anyway at that point if we had lynched cdb instead of seacore. but d2 is really where cdb(DC) should have been lynched over exilon. that might have given town a chance.

i think if hiphop had been able to play the entire time, he would have had a good chance of taking deers place in the bloc. i liked his input on d3 a lot.

I had a feeling that I was YT's pick for vig, when he claimed to know who vig was. I also had a feeling that wicked was vig. I was really close to claiming vig at mass claim, because i thought i would be believed over wicked and that YT would reveal he had predicted me at vig. I decided it was too risky, when we probably had the game in the bag. I was surprised when CDB claimed, obviously we hadnt discussed that. It turned out to be a lucky/good move.

I'd really like to know why SSBF didnt claim cop.

Oh, and YT... how does all that crow taste? Kidding, of course. You put a lot of effort in... but had the wrong reads. Just goes to show you how unpredictable this game is.

Anyway, it was a good game... everyone remained civil to each other for the most part. See you guys around!

[podium123456]

By the way my scum record is still better(check my sig).

Lol... did losing to me make you feel so insecure that you had to throw a line like this in? hahaha

[podium123456]

You saw me consider this D2 after Ex's crap trap, but the rest of the players didn't seem to care, which inspired my comments about balls.

Yeah, i was impressed that you pulled your vote off of him at L-1 after making such a strong case, and getting the wagon going. Showed that you suspected something might be amiss. I was worried that it would change towns mind about the lynch, so i tried to dirty him up a little more in post 479. But, like you said, town didnt really care and you moved back in on him. Had me worried though.

I was also prepared to use you pulling your vote at L-1 against you if need be... making the argument that you were scum trying to look like a concerned townie when he knew he had the full wagon in place and could safely get the lynch later. Might not have amounted to anything...

Besides, even though I sucked majorly in this game, I don't think the town loss was all my fault.

Not at all. Was a lot of luck going around in this game. Besides having the wrong reads, your play/arguing was nearly spotless townie. Wasn't really anything we would have been able to use to build a case against you if needed.

Don't worry, my scum record is still better than his.

HAHAHAH