Mini 932: Let's all be friends (Over)

[don_johnson]

hello. spyrex is here. good. i am not scum. if one of the wagons is then its the other one. i'll read the rest and let you know what i think, but keep in mind that spyrex is usually right, so sean is probably scum(unless spyrex is scum).

[don_johnson]

bottom of page four. in regards to sidekick:

it is actually irrelevant in my opinion whether the wording was intended as "some" or "scum". the point of this game is to scumhunt, so by pointing out a type of behavior, it is generally implied that one finds said behavior scummy unless one states otherwise. however, the fact that sidekick did return in his

very next post

to explain the statement as a joke weighs in his favor.

scum reads: fongoid, cruelty

fongoid's question of budja is stupid.

cruelty mainly for his "omgus" rvs vote and subsequent dissappearing act. the rvs is meant for jokes and fun and it offers townies a way to enter the game with genuine lightheartedness. "omgus" is a cop out. scum are forced to think about their random votes much harder than townies, because only scum's random votes can later be used against their team. therefore they are more likely to "cop out" with a lame random vote. budja omgussed as well, but with a history there it makes more sense. cruelty then basically dissappears only to resurface with a short defense on the semantics of the sidekick arguent(which, as explained above, really shouldn't even have mattered.)

moving on...

[don_johnson]

bottom of page 6:

i may be tunneling now, but i do notice how cruelty calls out fongoid's behavior but fails to vote for him. then, once the disgruntledsean wagon grows to a fair size, cruelty lays out the vote.

i don't like the speed at which either the ds or ice wagons grew. ds could be scum here, but the thing which sticks out the most to me is his tag: "townsperson". i think some may be taking advantage of that.

the fact that neither cruelty nor fongoid are on the sean wagon is also of note. hmm...

[don_johnson]

very well, thank you. i am also caught up.

cruelty's 222 seals the deal for me. i would rather lynch cruelty or fongoid, but ds is quite possibly their scum partner. i don't see why they would avoid two town wagons on day 1.

so are we waiting for another replacement, is there enough support for fongoid/cruelty, or do i place ds at L-1?

i will now take questions...

[don_johnson]

What do I think of Sean?

I didn't have a huge problem with his iceman vote, to be honest. I mean I understand the contradiction in theory, but in reality he (iceman) only had 2 votes at the time so Sean's vote wasn't hugely significant in terms of edging the wagon closer to the cliff edge.

imo all votes carry wieght, regardless of placement on the wagon. a vote on day 1 is 1/7 of a lynch. using this as reasoning to "absolve" sean of responsibility for his vote fits into my scum team theory. cruelty seems to "ignore" the larger part of the argument which is the contradiction, no?

I just get a slightly scummier feeling from ice - the inactivity coupled with the attitude reversal regarding bandwagons sets my spidey senses tingling a bit more.

^^ this is reaching. ice had two posts. he's been on site long enough to not make such a glaring mistake as scum to post a blatant contradiction. i can't really explain his actions, but there are a myriad of explanations for such a "mistake". flaking on the game(did he flake on site?) to me shows that he obviously didn't have the time to invest in reading the game, so a contradiction makes sense in that regard. he also may have thought about his initial decision more and after reading more of riddick's posts decided to simply change his mind. we'll never know, but to say one has a "slightly scummier feeling" from someone who has two posts than from someone who is active and not making much sense seems to be more than just "spidey sense" imo. he's attacking the player who is absent and can't defend. if sean is town, the townice wagon is much easier to say "oops! well he flaked, so..."

i am thinking a fongoid wagon may have enough support, but i see your point regardless of deadline. i agree that dragging on day 1 is a bit senseless, but we should get our other replacement before we lynch and i would like more response to my posts from others.

[don_johnson]

cruelty mainly for his "omgus" rvs vote and subsequent dissappearing act.

My random vote? Really? Not really gonna bother with this, but as far as reaching for a case goes, well, I'll defer to your expertise.

as well you should. i have quite a bit of eperience on this site and sifting through the rvs is what i consider one of my specialties.

Not too sure about this disappearing act gag either, but whatever reinforces your flimsy points I guess.

insulting me won't make me go away. you spent several pages in the background and then chimed in with a rather dull post.

i may be tunneling now, but i do notice how cruelty calls out fongoid's behavior but fails to vote for him.

This is the sort of thing that really aggravates me about this site. It's day 1, there's no possible way that you can have a genuinely strong read, why the f is it so imperative that I vote? It's like if you don't tick these boxes then some chump will jump down your throat because you're obvscum.

why can't i have a strong read? here you seem to misunderstand what i am taking issue with or you are possibly trying to misrepresent what it is i actually took issue with. its not that

you didn't vote

. it's that

you waited to vote

until an alternative wagon began.

Anyway, why didn't I vote straight away? Because I'm never sure about my day 1 reads, and I don't like rashly voting.

but you are sure enough to differentiate between mine and sean's posts.

I've never really thrown my vote around (I've played with a few of you before and my meta will support this) and I prefer my vote to have actual meaning. I don't want to be that guy who votes and unvotes ten times a day because at some point, people won't be at all concerned when you vote for them.

meta defense. brilliant. self produced meta is nothing more than null tell.

Basically to me, dj, you read like you've read through the game with a pre-meditated profile of me as scum, then shaped what you found to fit.

yes. i actually pointed this out first. your rvs vote was uberscummy imo so it obviously tainted my read.

I don't really think your suspicion is genuine at all

. I suppose it's logical, trying to pull votes off your wagon would be desirable regardless of your alignment, but I don't really get the feeling that you're hugely pro-town at all.

then you should be voting for me.

By the way, where is your vote?

i have rather clearly laid out my suspicions and where my vote will go. if you want to lynch snow white/fongoid, i am with you. if you want to lynch yourself, i can help you there too. if not, then i will be voting ds. i already made that clear.

[don_johnson]

ebwop: just realized that you

are

voting for me. yet you claim to want fongoid/snowwhite over me. would i be correct in that?

[don_johnson]

meta defense. brilliant. self produced meta is nothing more than null tell.

Shrug, don't know what to tell you then. I've never thrown votes around, not going to start now. If you're gonna crucify me for my playstyle then do it, I don't think holding off on a vote is exactly anti-town, especially in day one.

again, you miss the issue. its not the "holding off", its the timing in general. you "held off" until another wagon was established.

its not that you didn't vote. it's that you waited to vote until an alternative wagon began.

And then what? Furiously pushed the Fongoid wagon as an alternative? Where exactly are you going with this point?

i guess i fail to see where you "furiously" did anything... in fact, you seem to have aqcuiesced to the ice wagon even though you state you kinda sorta didn't want to.

Look I'm not misunderstanding you at all, I just don't think it's valid. I don't throw my vote around, and I'm certainly not going to make sure that my vote is cast precisely when the sun is at the apex of it's arc. I don't really care about timing, other wagons aren't really a concern of mine and I think this is what you're misunderstanding about me. DS's wagon wasn't even a concern of mine at the time; I thought (not sure what I think right now) that Fongoid was the scummiest player in the game, so that's where I voted.

yes. that's where you voted, after another wagon took off. if you would like to put your money where your mouth is then vote fongoid now. i'd be fine joining you. they were your first choice anyway, right? i'm pretty sure we got an extension...

i have rather clearly laid out my suspicions and where my vote will go.

Oh.. so I was vague in my disbelief in Fongoid's explanation?

the statement above was not about you. it was made in response to your question of "where's your vote at?" way to take it out of context. noone said anything about you or your vagueness.

This point is beyond ridiculous. I'm scum because I didn't post a fucking joke? You serious? In future, in order to avoid suspicion, I'll make sure to include a joke in the RVS. That'll clear things up and avoid any misunderstandings in the future.

no. you are scum because you got a role pm that says so. you didn't post a joke because you were nervous about how to enter the game. you figured an "omgus" vote was a nice easy way in that wouldn't draw much attention.

as well you should. i have quite a bit of eperience on this site and sifting through the rvs is what i consider one of my specialties.

Yeah mad props. Doing a stellar job so far.

another insult. well done.

[don_johnson]

Well this has progressed quickly, don_johnson why are you pushing cruelty so hard?

i think he's scum and its actually quite fun.

Are you seriously suggesting he is 100% scum?

i can't know that for sure, but if he's scum he's 100%. i haven't been in a game with players having varying percentages of being scum.

It's possible yes but I think you're being extreme and pushing way too hard. I think you saying he is 100% scum at this point is folly.

why is it "folly"? did you notice how he changed his vote with only the slightest bit of pressure? did you notice how he is still avoiding ds? did you notice the discrepancies in his testimony? its not my fault he is allowing himself to be my puppet.

I think you're going too hard on such minor things, perhaps you should back off and rethink?

why are you voting ds? please point out the "major" reasons you believe him to be scum.

[don_johnson]

i think sean just put himself at L-1, though unintentionally. nobody hammer please.

looking up "gunsmith" now. haven't played with one.

unvote, vote: cruelty

placeholder til i get this sorted out.

[don_johnson]

how about snow white? the "scumlist" in 268 is awfully convenient... although sidekick defending my other main suspect seemed a bit senseless. i am thinking spyrex town mainly based on the fact that he could have gotten off my wagon without making such a stout declaration of my towniness. this would have certainly enabled scumspyrex to jump back on if the sean wagon broke down. i agree with the thoughts on sean's claim, though i am expecting a pile of bodies in the morning.

unfortunately i have to admit that cruelty's avoidance read more as scum avoiding scum, but it could still be scum avoiding town. i need to reevaluate. is there any support for a cruelty lynch?

[don_johnson]

i can certainly go for a snow white lynch.

Budja. i refuse to accept that you would base a potential lynch on the use of WIFOM.

sounds a little odd coming from someone willing to lynch based on this:

This is nothing more than a vote of confidence in SpyreX's scumhunting capabilities and having nothing else to go on.

[don_johnson]

unvote, vote: snow white

let's get it moving then.

[don_johnson]

unvote, vote: sidekick

[don_johnson]

its already done. i hammered in 329.

mod: vote count please?

[don_johnson]

vote: snow white

[don_johnson]

unvote

v/la til april 3

[don_johnson]

back, will post tonight. quick skim alerts me to the fact we may have a masslcaim going on? and yes. i do not have a gun. things are looking up, no?

[don_johnson]

the big lettering has me convinced.

vote: cruelty

[don_johnson]

cue: i'm not scum so i don't agree with what you are saying. i have been having difficulty keeping up with this game due to rl, but i recall entering this game and pouring out some serious posts. there was little reason to push me to a claim on day 1 other than ice's dumb move. i don't like sotty's attitude, but i always seem to think sotty is scum when they're not. i do like sotty 468. you seem to be playing the part of the "brick shitting" mafia from my pov. and for anyone looking to meta me, don't bother. i'm a wild man.

[don_johnson]

473 is poor. calling someone town with little evidence may not be "scummy" per se, but its certainly not good form. has hoopla answered the question of "why did you investigate sotty"?

[don_johnson]

I don't get it, I'm playing the part of brick shitting mafia? You confuse me Don.

no. cue seems to be playing that part.

I don't think calling out your gut reads on people is scummy. I do it all the time, so do a lot of players (I'm pretty sure i have seen you do it). Doesn't mean your reads are set in stone, doesn't mean they can't change. If anything it is to get people to react, scum don't like townies finding other townies and will try and discredit it.

fair enough. we still need an answer from hooper.

Right now I just disagree with Cuet and want to correct his associative scum hunting. Scum buddy with town all the time, town buddy with scum, town with town, scum with scum. From the way he tells it he saw some buddying and then built a reaching case around it. Buddying could be a part of a case, but when it is the anchor you're looking for trouble.

agreed. especially because i know i am not scum and so know that his theory is at least partially incorrect.

[don_johnson]

1. If you can't keep up with the game because of RL, then replace out.

2. Actually Hoopla did give her reason for investigating Sotty, but of course scum don't need to read that carefully. Look up post 439.

3. And while we are at it DJ. Can you enlighten us to why you hammered Sidekick, you never gave a reason? Was it cause enough of the town supported that wagon?

4. Also, why are you voting Cruelty and why is that the best lynch right now?

5. Do you have anymore reads?

1. no thanks. theres plenty of time to catch up.
2. no need to be rude. i will look it up.
3. i'd have to look back. i'm pretty sure it was because sk was the day1 lynch by majority consensus.
4. cruelty is always a good lynch.
5. yes.

[don_johnson]

i don't have a gun. speculation on some sort of "investigative immune" role is poor form. i am as innocent as can be at this point. those attempting to cast suspicion on me are grasping for straws.

[don_johnson]

is wings active on the site? if not, we may need a replacement.

[don_johnson]

don's fuming.

^^ misrep.

DJ HAS NO GUN.

^^ based on in thread and possible night action evidence. if i am scum i am most likely scum with DS. i am probably not scum with DS based on in thread actions. therefore i am most likely not scum.

[don_johnson]

don's fuming

^^ misrep.

DJ HAS NO GUN.

^^ somewhat verifiable evidence based on alleged night actions. if i am scum i am most likely scum with DS. i am probably not scum with DS based on in thread actions. therefore i am most likely not scum. today.

[don_johnson]

just for shits and giggles, can someone tell me why there is all this talk about a possible sk?

[don_johnson]

Can you explain to me how you missed hoopla's claim and the subsequent numerous discussions regarding night actions/people being cleared etc?

my grandmother passed away. i was busy for a few days and when i returned there was a bunch of tl;dr type posts.

cue: care to explain what is wrong with any of my votes?

sidekick wagon needed a hammer. wasn't my first choice for day 1.

sw: snow white claimed "doc" and survived the night. i laid out my suspicions of her slot on day 1.

cruelty: also, suspicion from day 1

theres no real "inconsistency". as soon as general consensus seemed to clear snow and show little support for her wagon i moved to a perfectly viable suspect.

i have no issues with moving to wow or sotty if need be. but i want to lynch cruelty.

do you have questions for me?

[don_johnson]

wow's "martyr" attitude is starting to rub me the wrong way. if they are town then they should be working for the cruelty lynch if they believe in the plan, not aqcuiescing to their own hanging. not sure if its worth switching here, but its certainly doesn't read very town to me.

ds: post something for hoop to shit on.

[don_johnson]

i see no reason for snow white to still be alive.

[don_johnson]

vote: WoW

[don_johnson]

unvote, vote: hoopla

odd man out. motion detector/gunsmith/2 macho doc is quite possible. fbi? come on.

[don_johnson]

one of budja/hoop is most likely scum. hoop claimed fbi after the night kill, no? did someone claim vig? if dead player isn't who scum targeted and a vig doesn't claim then it should be obvious to the scum team that sk exists, thereby making "fbi" a fully reasonable claim. the gunsmith claim came before we knew of multiple killers. therefore more believable. motion detector just sounds more balanced, but i could be wrong. 591 is the only recent post i don't get by budja. other than that i don't see any issues with motion detector claim. certainly should be lynching out of ds/hoop/budja. i'll take hoop.

[don_johnson]

wings made a graph. prolly town. also, please stop insulting me. i had personal issues which pulled my attention from this game. my reasoning is sound. i think cue is the second scum. and yes, i believe there are only two. 3:1:8 is unbalanced when 1 is nk immune.

[don_johnson]

I stayed home, hoping Budja would investigate me so I could prove/disprove his claim.

why would anyone but ds investigate you? isn't your ability limited to finding the sk? oh. that's right. you're lieing scum.

[don_johnson]

You have no idea what you're saying - Sean's investigation on me

would

come up 'has a gun'!

which is exactly why your claim sounds "convenient".

This is largely the reason why I believed his claim in the first place, because gunsmith set-ups usually have 1-2 town gun roles to dillute the results of a gunsmith.

okay.

Budja's role sees if people stay home or not. He wouldn't know what I would do, now that I have no SK to catch. That's why I would have been a good investigation target, because if he's truthful, he could have proved his role by confirming if I went somewhere or not.

then you should have told him to watch you. do you believe town has a gunsmith, an fbi agent, and a motion detector?

[don_johnson]

problem: when hoop had the chance to breadcrumb, she failed.

If you want to play the balance game, here is a frequency of the commonly used 12 player closed set-ups. As it's likely we have two doctors, it's hard to know if we have another killing faction in the game before a night happens with two kills, but I give it better than even odds we're playing in a 3:9 set-up. The thing that makes me pause is the gunsmith role, which could be used in conjunction with an SK to give it investigation immunity - but that seems like a longshot.

hoop goes on to mention the role of "priest" three times over the next few pages as a possible "counter" to gunsmith. i don't get the feeling that this post is wanton misdirection to protect herself. hoop came up with her fbi agent claim on the fly towards the end of the day, realizing it could give her a chance to coast to lylo. also, as scum she would be aware of their power role(s) and thus be able to successfully manipulate night actions in any of the scenarios she suggested. other than this post(382), hoop's play fits, but she is an experienced player and i believe she is scum.

[don_johnson]

sotty: i'm pretty convinced one of hoop/budja is scum. post 382(i think), the one i quoted above just doesn't jive with hoops current stance. seriously, go back and read the whole post. its not at all far fetched to think that scum hoop figured out there's a likely sk and cherrypicked an obscure claim that would conveniently explain why she has a gun and why she's been moving at night. scum doesn't need a rolecop to figure out theres another killer in a game. why would there be a gunsmith in the game

and

an fbi agent? so the sk is nk immune

and

immune to the gunsmith, but not to the fbi agent? please. its horseshit and hoop should be lynched today. there was no indication in thread that would lead me to believe that DS wouldn't get a "has a gun" result from cruelty. generally, weapons are dictated with flavor. i.e. riddick was "stabbed" or "shot". not "killed". i think cue might be a good candidate for scum #2. see how hes now trying to tie you and i to hoop? spyrex is good, but he's not god. let's start with hoop and see where it gets us. no way theres 3 scum

and

an sk, so it should be perfectly safe to lynch.

[don_johnson]

cue: null. i've done it as both alignments. i assume others would do it that way as well. there can be mitigating circumstances, however. but unfortunately, many players out there do it for fun.

[don_johnson]

also, has it occurred to anyone that putting an fbi agent in a mini normal with a motion detector and a gunsmith makes the game virtually unwinnable for an sk? most common sk fakeclaim is vig. simple

existence

of an fbi agent shoots that to hell. no. fbi agent seems much more like a large game role than a mini. especially if we have a gunsmith. hoop's game is falling apart here. seriously. think about it. lynching her now is the same as lynching a vanilla anyway as her power is supposedly useless.

[don_johnson]

Ok DJ, I understand that you believe Hoopla to be scum today.

My question:

Why the hell did you believe her yesterday?

its kind of like, the more i think about it, the more absurd it becomes. i wasn't vested in the game yesterday. i was bogged in rl issues. now that i have the time to look back through and make sense of it it reads different.

read 382 and tell me what

you

think about her thought process. she readily accepts

all

of the pr claims. she gives the odds in favor of there

not

being an sk in the game. just doesn't sound like the play of an fbi agent.

[don_johnson]

I hope for your sake you are town Don, but the craplogic and reaching arguments you're spewing out makes me doubt you. You're lucky you were cleared by Sean.

^^ this makes you sound uber scummy. there is a big difference between "hinting" at your role and putting info into thread that can help town. so what? you were afraid the sk might guess that your role was fbi agent? thats ridiculous. the post in question is not "taken out of context". i urge all players to read the entire post. it does not read like someone who holds the role of fbi agent. it also shows the fact that ytou are now backtracking on budja. in that post, you accept all of the powerroles. why the change of heart? it doesn't make sense to me and your emotional reaction seals the deal for me. if you're town, maybe we'll lynch budja tomorrow, but you're not. no way. inclusion of an fbi agent in this game is bastard modding. it gives cruelty absolutely ZERO chance at a win. in a large normal, maybe, but not in a twelve player game.

[don_johnson]

No it doesn't. It is actually exceedingly rare for an SK to be NK immune

and

investigation immune in Mini Normals. At best, I have 3 shots at investigating cruelty's identity - they aren't great odds when you consider I could die well before that.

your existence is what ruins his chances at a win. and how exactly is he

investigative immune

? we allegedly have a gunsmith. sk is most likely carrying a gun. otherwise flavor would indicate otherwise. even if you don't investigate cruelty, if you die night one and are revealed as an fbi agent, that lets everyone know that an sk exists. hence the game is virtually unwinnable for the sk. in a large normal an sk would have more chance of eluding other powerroles and succeeding. not in a mini.

I laughed at you thinking SK's have a fairer chance of winning Large Normal's though with an FBI Agent. I've not seen it happen. Every SK win (~12) I've seen have been in Mini Normal's.

my point exactly. have you ever seen a mini normal with an sk

and

an fbi agent? an sk win is hard enough. the inclusion of an agent is ridiculous, and that agent posting that he believes several pr claims and multiple investigation roles is preposterous. nice try. really.

[don_johnson]

Don I get what you are saying about Hoop, but why do you assume the SK would be carrying a gun?

i don't. there was no flavor associated with the kill. therefore i would assume all kills are committed with a gun, especially considering we have an alleged gunsmith.

We don't know what kill went though on night one, this seems to suggest that you know more than you are letting on as far as who killed who.

no. thats not what it suggests at all. there is no evidence in thread to differentiate between "gun" and "no gun" kills. therefore, with the inclusion of our alleged gunsmith, i believe that kills are committed with guns. it is way more logical than assuming cruelty

didn't

have one.

3. Since there was only 1 kill on Night 1, it would have been extremely difficult for hypo-scum Hoopla to guess that there was a SK and not another FBI agent in the game.

fbi is not a common role. hypo-scum hoopla submits "kill spyrex". spyrex does not die. riddick dies. no one claims vig. hypo-scum thinks" there's probably an sk". its not as difficult as you make it sound. its actually rather rudimentary. some might call it "common sense".

whatever. i am confident that one of budja/hoop is scum. i'd prefer to lynch hoop but i'm not going to stop the budja lynch. i really wish people would stop walking around with blinders on, though. hoop and cue are riddled with bad assumptions and flawed logic.

[don_johnson]

or they tried to kill cruelty. please use your head. not a difficult scenario to piece together here. also, the role of fbi agent is like a sub role. its inclusion doesn't necessarily mean the inclusion of its counterpart(sk), so its a relatively safe claim no matter how you look at it. by claiming fbi she also doesn't expose herself to scrutiny by an alleged second scum faction. but claiming after the docs called their targets also helped her out. but whatever. lynch budja. if he's scum then i'm wrong. if not. then i'm right.

[don_johnson]

why do you need permission?

[don_johnson]

i think budja is town and hoopla is scum. but i hate waiting.

unvote, vote: budja

[don_johnson]

so... this is one of those no lynch situations, right? why are we all talking?

[don_johnson]

If Snow is just going to die, then what is the point? We're better off having another confirmed townie around to minimize the amount of scum influence.

Also, we need to hear Sean's results too.

snow hasn't died yet. just sayin'. and yes, we need sean's results.

Hoopla- fbi agent
Cuetlachtli- vanilla
Snow White- macho doc
don_johnson- unknown
Sotty7- vanilla
DisgruntledSean- gunsmith

^^ is this correct?

[don_johnson]

i don't believe i claimed. i was v/la during the whole issue. everyone assumed i was vanilla. you can continue to do so if you like.

ds: waiting on results...

[don_johnson]

noone ever asked. everyone seemed satisfied with the results. i was only asked if i was carrying a gun. i answered.

[don_johnson]

i'll let you know if i have anything pertinent. i think it is more important that ds tell us who he investigated and what his result was. then i think we will most likely no lynch. no reason to out our "trump card" just yet.

[don_johnson]

Don't you think something fishy is up?

yes.

[quote"hoop"]We're not all town, and the likeliest explanation for all of this is that Sean is scum and has false cleared someone.[/quote]

could be. still could be hoop/cue.

No lynching gets us nowhere, really. Snow White will die, maybe we get Sean to investigate Cue, but we're losing the voice of a confirmed townie in the process. If we're to no lynch, we need to hear more from Snow because she will die tonight.

snow whites contribution has been minimal. she hasn't been killed yet,no guarantee she dies tonight. and one more ds investigation may be helpful. he could investigate you if he wants.

lets pipe down and wait for his results.

[don_johnson]

Oh and Don_Johnson.....what role do you claim?

jelly role, bitch.

vote: no lynch

snow white. please don't protect anyone tonight. let's narrow this down.

thoughts?

[don_johnson]

hoop/cue is looking like a scum slapfest.

sotty: what are you thinking?

snow white: please don't succumb to confirmation apathy.

hoop: please outline the downside to a no lynch as i don't see one.

[don_johnson]

either ds is scum or he's being set up to look like it. scum may have been using their roleblock to keep sw in check. especially if there is a priest involved. remember, hoop? you talked quite a bit about a "priest" role earlier...

oh yeah. snow white is CONFIRMED TOWN. that's not negotiable.

[don_johnson]

as far as im concerned scum is among hoop, sotty, ds, cue.

scum can have the night to decide between the unclaimed townie or the confirmed townie. they would also(assuming dstown) need to decide where their roleblock goes. this leaves endless options. what i don't get is that you are against no lynch because you think snow white is confirmed, but you're voting no lynch because you agree that she isn't confirmed. well, which is it? do you actually believe that town has(had) three investigative roles and scum has a doc and a roleblocker?

[don_johnson]

maybe scum has a "priest" and was hoping to get investigated. weren't you the one who mentioned the possibility of a priest over and over before you claimed to an fbi agent?

also, how is scum supposed to know who snow white is protecting? because she says she's going to do something doesn't mean she's going to do it. scum may have been blocking her to remove the chance that she tried to protect someone else.

also, what other roles might scum have besides roleblocker considering you don't think sean is town? there wouldn't be any point in having a "priest" role if town doesn't actually have a gunsmith, would there? the role which counters motion detector is something like "ninja", isn't it?

willing to lynch hoop. she's flailing. someone hammer the no lynch and let scum make their shot.

snow white, do not protect anyone. scum, if you no kill i am replacing out.

[don_johnson]

interesting. let's test the theory.

i'm going with hoop/cue.

fuck it.

unvote, vote: hoopla

cue: i spent the entire day yesterday building a case against hoop and you completely ignored it. now you guys are talkin like buddies. makes no sense unless you are both scum.

[don_johnson]

that question is a bit irrelevant at the current time. you could be hoop's partner, it could be sotty, or it could be snow. i doubt its ds, two scum claiming power roles would be an awfully risky gambit me thinks. do you think hoop is scum? you claim that accountability is important here, so why don't you tell us what you think? what about my case didn't you buy? have you read the particular post i referenced in my case(i believe it was 382, maybe?) read it and tell me if that post and the few after it come from someone who has the role of "fbi agent". then we can talk. i'm pretty sure you "ignored" my case yesterday because i don't remember engagin in any pertinent discussion with you about that post and imo its very telling.

[don_johnson]

unvote, vote no lynch

hoop has points here and no lynch can't hurt. ds scum would be running out of targets here and claiming roleblock would be the best move. lets see what happens.

[don_johnson]

*yawn*

soooo.....

[don_johnson]

nice premature hammer. hopefully snow can jump in in time to post some thoughts.

sw: protect noone or me. ftr, i am thinking hooper is scum. in addittion to the case i posted against them, the more i think about it, the less i believe that an fbi agent would exist in this game. the mere existence of said role in a mini makes the game entirely unwinnable for cruelty. if i am wrong, then we are victims of bastard modding. but either way, i just want

you

to know that i am going to night phase with that thought.

[don_johnson]

You're ridiculous, HE WAS BULLETPROOF. That's a perk not all SK's (especially in Mini Normals) get. By that same logic, SK's without a vest have zero chance of winning too, because they too have the same odds of being hit by a mafia kill as an investigation by an FBI Agent.

no. not by the same logic. the

existence

of an fbi agent in this small a game makes the game UNWINNABLE. think it through. cruelty claims "vig" on day 2. you investigate him night 2. he loses. cruelty claims "vig" on day 2. kills you night 2. you flip "fbi". vig claim is transparent. the interaction between the two roles is hugely magnified by the decreased number of players in this game. with something along the lines of an 18 player game, sk would most likely not have to fakeclaim. sk without a vest has much better odds of winning. same odds of getting chosen as a night target, but not ultimately screwed by the

mere existence

of mafia in the game.

How does a Gunsmith in this game make any sense to you? Able to find likely just 1 scum - what is the point?

one or both scum

and

one sk. the point is to be able to detect whose carrying a gun. it also leaves open the idea of "fakeclaims" then being usable by anti-town roles(sk in particular). combined with motion detector it makes the game

more difficult

to win as sk, but does not

eliminate

the chance of an sk win.

in any case, this may get cleared up tonight. snow follows my direction and we should be good. DS, please investigate Hoop. scum is going to have to make some difficult decisions tonight.

[don_johnson]

ds: just investigate her. trust me. if you are town scum will have to make an interesting decision and i want to see what they do.

snow: remember, me or nobody. good luck.

[don_johnson]

that's just wierd. starting to think we should lynch dsister. need to reread.

[don_johnson]

fbi agent is a role that can find a serial killer. if you've read my case on hoop you will see where i stand with that claim, however, i want DS's results before i discuss mine.

[don_johnson]

I will wait for DS's results as well before I discuss anything.

why?

Also, no one vote yet cuz it only takes 1 fail townie to open up a blitz lynch opportunity for the scum.

^^ no shit, sherlock. do you want a townie medal?

[don_johnson]

740 is seriously anti-town.

yes. i'm vanilla.

vote: hoopla

[don_johnson]

dj,
you're not so far beyond suspicion that you can either
dictate town's night actions,
or dictate who reveals their night actions in what order.

true. but you are not a monkey, are you? noone has to do what i say. the whole issue yesterday was me trying to draw away a nk or a roleblock.

unvote

you weren't roleblocked again?

[don_johnson]

sorry hoop. i'm thinking. i'm thinking ds is scum.

[don_johnson]

well.. you have a gun, and the mafia probably have guns, and the sk probably had a gun. but i see your point and i think it is ridiculous that he wasn't roleblocked. i'd like to hear more of his theories, though. this is going to be an amusing day.

dsister is "semi" confirmed. if ds is scum then i am more than likely wrong about you, which means scum is ds/cue. what are you thinkin?

[don_johnson]

i forgot cue was cleared by budja. however, if there isn't a scum roleblocker, then that might not be so odd.

scum doc is a possibility, but only if there is no roleblocker. i would think doc/rb would be overpowered and besides, who would be making the kill?

not sure how you're tieing me to sean, so if you want to flesh that theory out, please do.

the fact that dsister isn't participating isn't helping that slot.

i still have trouble reconciling the existence of an fbi agent in a mini. can you link to any games of this size which have contained one?

[don_johnson]

what is your plan, dj?

don't have one.

what's changed since we killed/confirmed sotty,
to all of a sudden deem hoopla worth a vote?

"all of a sudden" is a horrible mischaracterization of my stance.
also, i clearly stated that i felt hoop's post was anti-town.

In this hypo world where i'm scum, can anyone think of a Reason i claimed role block/inv. immunity one night, and then came up with a no gun the next night?

wifom.

for a while now i've wanted some real feedback from you experienced players what the odds are of a scum RB'er and a gun-less/inv. immune scum role. is that a balanced set-up with the town PR's, even if you assume either hoopla or my role is false?

no reason for there to be a "priest", as hoopla put it, unless there is a gunsmith. balance is a tricky thing. i seriously doubt, however, that town is nearing endgame with three living power roles.

i wanted to kill hoopla back before we killed budja,
not that any of you would have listened to me,
why, don, do you now vote for hoopla, only to be persuaded back to non-vote by...
hoopla?!?!

you obviously aren't paying attention. i pioneered the "hoopla is scum" theory.

who do you think is scum?

[don_johnson]

i would alwasy pick nk immunity. however, i have been nk immune sk before in set-ups devoid of an fbi agent. i really wish you and ds would start building cases instead of trying to convince us that your claims are real. dsister's speculation is a bit out there.

hoop: have you been investigating anybody else?

[don_johnson]

There is also Seans recent post 752 where he says, “what is your plan, dj? What’s changed since WE killed/confirmed sotty?” Is that a scum slip?! It is almost too obvious of a slip to be true.

if you think ds is my scumbuddy then let's lynch him. you vote first.

cue: have you ever looked into my case on hoop?

[don_johnson]

seriously, hoop?

i'm a little shocked that you can't see the obvious. cue is calling me out for "not making a case"? i never pushed a cue wagon. i

did

make cases during this game. noone has bothered to look in depth into my case on you. i referenced a particular post. in any case. i'm thinking the scum are cue/ds at this point. the whole not roleblocking thing just doesn't sit right. i'll let you choose who we lynch between the two. although you calling that cue post "stellar" gives me pause, i'm not gonna backtrack my reads. there is no case on me. if you read this thread you would see that i have been working in towns interest all game.

[don_johnson]

also, dsister and sean: if you are not scum and hoop/cue decide to pile votes on me, don't hammer. reread and see if the cue/hoop theory works, because i am town. i've made every attempt i can to win this game and don't want to lose.

[don_johnson]

fuck it.

vote: disgruntled sean

no way in hell does scum let him get an investigation. only player i can see as having a "priest" role is hoop, as he rambled about it the most. but they can't be scum together.

hoop: please reread cue's post. i don't think its "stellar" at all. active lurking is not a good town strategy for a vanilla.

[don_johnson]

unvote

its about time you fuckers crossvoted. i want to read more before i decide.

sean: i'm not sure where you're getting your info, but i never "forgot" about hoopla. i made a case and everyone ignored it. also, hoop and i were simulposting. i unvoted because of the ridiculousness of your investigation results. not being blocked makes no sense. but alas, a reread is on the horizon.

dsister: unnacceptable. please give more thoughts.

[don_johnson]

Sidekick vanilla townie
Riddick vanilla townie
WingsOWisdom Vanilla townie
Sotty Vanilla townie
dj vanilla townie

SpyreX Macho Doc
Budja Motion Detector
dsister macho doc
sean gunsmith

cruelty bulletproof SK

hoop scum roleblocker
cue priest

sean: what do you think of this set-up?

hoop: if

I'm more than 90% sure Sean is scum, so I don't know why we're wasting time.

then why are you

second

on the bandwagon?

[don_johnson]

Ok, don... who do you think is scummy?

a better question would be "who does dsister think is scummy?"

You think post 740 is scum, so you vote Hoopla(742)
Hoopla(Who you just voted!!!) tells you to unvote her, then you do?(744)

that was a simulpost. i unvoted hoop because i was second guessing the fact that ds said he

wasn't

blocked again. hoop's request was irrelevant.

You apologize to hoopla, and think Sean is mafia now?(745)

one of them is certainly scum.

Now you are agreeing with hoopla?(748)

i am trying to figure out who is scum. tunneling is a bad lylo strategy.

Now you are doubting there is a FBI agent again?(750)

do you think there is an fbi agent?

Now you are back to hoop/cue scum team?(760+761) Also you implore Sean not to vote for you if he is town, so you believe him now? o.O

not following you. a town on town vote loses the game. sean's posts seem sincere.

You vote Sean(762)
Now that Seam agrees with you, you unvote him? And you are suspecting Hoopla again?(768)

no. i unvote because sean votes hoop. we now have an oppurtunity to find out if one of them is definitely scum. noone has been quicklynched, so it is most likely correct to believe that one of them is scum. also, hoop made the comment about "not wasting time", and yet he waited until my vote was on sean to go ahead and lay his vote down.

directly after my vote.

Now Cue is back to being scum...? And you are asking Sean if he agrees? Weren't you just voting him?(769)

cue is likely scum as well. unless you are scum. so yeah. cue is most likely hoop's or ds' partner. i don't think hoop and ds are scum together. i don't think you are scum. so...

how much experience do you have on ms?

[don_johnson]

was cue cleared by our motion detector?

dsister: please take your time. you don't seem very experienced here.

cue: what would you think of a hoop/dsister scum team? macho doc/goon.

[don_johnson]

Yes, Cue was cleared.

meaning cue didn't go anywhere for one night? that would mean if scum has a roleblocker, then cue is not scum. so ds town means cue town. which means that if ds is scum then he is paired with hoop(impossible) or dsister. most likely means ds/cue. cue's post today was mainly a post to implicate me as ds' partner, however it leaned toward wanting to lynch me today as opposed to cue. that tells me that cue might have been planning to engineer my lynch first, but covering his ass in case his scum partner got lynched. make sense? or does motion detector work like watcher?

Don, if you're town, I get the whole 'not wanting to tunnel' thing, but you're mindlessly slinging mud in every direction, seeing where it sticks, which is the complete opposite to tunneling and just as unproductive, because in lylo's town's can't afford one wrong vote. And when you keep changing your mind so frequently, it's hard to put any faith in a lynching majority you take part in.

i realize this, but i am trying to figure this out. also, please don't mistake me asking questions for "mudslinging". players answers to questions can help us all figure things out.

If you're town, please concisely present your overall suspicions. Take some time and think it through, but it's paramount that everyone is clear on everyone else's positions in lylo.

yes. dsister is apparently a newb. that's not a good thing. noone else has been roleblocked that we know of, my only problem with the ds/cue scum team would then be what "power" scum has.

[don_johnson]

bonus fact: dj and dsister cannot be scum together.

[don_johnson]

overnight revelation: hoop and cue can't be scum together unless cue is "motionless priest". never heard of such a role.

possible combinations left:

hoop/sean

sean/cue

if sean flips roleblocker then cue is final scum. on reread, no way dsister can be scum.

dsister: please protect hoopla tonight, unless you want to randomize, but if there's a kill, its most likely you.

hoop: i've been pouring over this. ds has to be scum.

vote: disgruntledsean

[don_johnson]

dammit. scratch that. cue can't be scum if ds flips power.

again the dilemma of what power scum may have in this game. budja speculated on a busdriver, but even that is odd. unless cue is somehow "motionless", scum can't have power with cue on the team, right?

cue: what do you think about this set-up

Sidekick vanilla townie
Riddick vanilla townie
WingsOWisdom Vanilla townie
Sotty Vanilla townie
dj vanilla townie
cue vanilla townie

SpyreX Macho Doc
Budja Motion Detector
dsister macho doc


cruelty bulletproof SK

hoop scum
sean scum

maybe one is nk or investigative immune godfather?

in any case, i am slowly convincing myself that cue is town or godfather. an nk immune godfather may balance the set-up. ugh.

[don_johnson]

unvote

hm.

[don_johnson]

never mind.

vote: disgruntled sean

just reread day 1 and realized he pulled the newb card when he claimed. still seems to be riding it, but if you read through his posts they don't necessarily read newbie.

@riddick: a couple pages later but yeah, i'd take a desire for a seemingly indiscriminate lynch as either a scum move or an SK one, which is why i'm hoping iceman doesn't get too many votes before he either provides more content or is replaced.

post 3 in iso, he's speculating on an sk. tell me, how does one speculate about an sk in their

first

game?

he uses terms like "pressure vote" and "anti-town". then he stalls on claiming:

mmmm,
pattys day shouldn't count
post + claim tomrorow

then:

everyone's newb hunting is excellent
but am i scum, no
i drew town gunsmith, i'll assume everyone knows what that is
i am, as many have pointed out, new,

it's my first game

and was uncertain of how to use my role productively
im sorry for my inexperience and i've slowed the game down a little which i feel bad about
i really think we need to take a look at the people eager to lynch me tho

confused on partner here, but hoop's day 1 is excessively protown.

more later.

[don_johnson]

unvote

sw claimed protective on day 1. most common scum fakeclaim on day 1 as it poetentially outs a doctor, right? however, spyrex unvotes and says he believes her.

snow white is a scum rolecop? investigates spyrex, realizes he's macho and crumbs it at the beginning of day 2?

i don't think cue can be scum. i am not scum. with only two scum they have to have a power role. unless they have a busdriver, but aaaahhhhh!

someone else please post some ideas. i feel like i am the only one who is trying to figure this out. my reread is at page 20 or so. i still have trouble justifying hoop's about face as far as believing all the power roles.

dsister/snowwhite: the slot has ALWAYS lacked in contribution.

[don_johnson]

i'd love to catch up on cue's thoughts

at this point i keep thinking don must be inv immune and hoop must be roleblocker
unless there's a role that's both and the other scum's a goon

doubtful. most likely set up would be goon/power role. roleblocker

or

godfather.

don, can you explain please why you tried to get me to inv hoopla before yesterday's end? what result was that meant to achieve?

was wondering if hoop would investigate with a gun. clearly you didn't read my entire case on hoopla. he mentioned the "priest" role several times without much prompting. i was curious to see if he was a gambitting priest, unlikely but i felt that would help. also, scumsean could have used the situation to his advantage.

after your voting today, i could see how a hypo-scum team with you in it might behave erratically

sorry pal. everyone thinks your scum. a hyposcum team with me on it would most likely have already won the game.

but think about it everyone, doesn't a inv immune role and an Rolelbocker make sense with what we know of their night actions? how would you play it as scum with such a set-up?

thats extremely overpowered. but not out of the realm of possibility. however we only have one night where you "got no result". you yourself said you didn't know if you were roleblocked. noone the docs have protected has been killed and you have not been killed and allowed to investigate sporadically.

what would be the point of having an inv immune role if you block the investigator?

exactly. so why were you allowed to investigate the night after you were blocked. do you think scum blocked me on the off chance i wasn't vanilla?

they luck out night one and i clear their immune role (don)
but if they just continue blocking me the rest of the game we might get wise so they let me clear one more person, then start to toy with my usefulness to the town, blocking one night, not blocking the next (after hypo-don tries to manipulate that night's inv.)

if i'm scum with hoop and i'm immune, then why would i ask you to investigate hoop? i see your point here, but it is really convoluted. the simple explanation in this game is that you and cue are scum.

that's my gut's theory anyway,
simply don't have the time for read-thru tho this game certainly requires it

it doesn't take long.

hoop: would a priest be immune to both gunsmith and motion detector?

[don_johnson]

^^ yup.

i'm waiting on the rest of you.

[don_johnson]

What about the possibility of a one-shot-roleblocker? it's the only logical assumption i can come up with if Sean is being truthful. If Sean if is scum, there doesn't need to be a roleblocker present as he is the only one claiming one exists. It makes it hard to pick what scum's power could be (if they have one) if Sean is scum.

my guess would be that if sean is scum then cue is motion detector immune, or snow white is rolecop. if sean flips scum power, cue is confirmed town. of course, same theory applies to hoop/cue. theres so many pieces that don't fit.

hoop: would a priest be immune to both gunsmith and motion detector?

dsisters lack of contribution and her predecessors coasting has me really paranoid.

[don_johnson]

ok. Well I read through Hoopla's iso. And I find myself believing her.

And with Cue confirmed townie(basically) that leaves a scum team of don/sean.

Don's posts today just don't seem right to me. He is throwing out votes and suspicion in every direction and even going from calling someone town to voting for them in his next post or two.

you need to explain this. did you read my case on Hoop? what did you think of his play before the fbi claim?

cue is not confirmed without a scum powerrole flip. it could easily be goon/investigative immune.

let's try something unorthodox:

vote: dsister

[don_johnson]

unvote, vote: hoopla

there you go boy-o!

shower revelation: hoop is goon. cue is priest.

[don_johnson]

Ok, don... who do you think is scummy?

a better question would be "who does dsister think is scummy?"

I see you managed to dodge this question. I'd like an answer please

answered above. i have actually been answering this question all along. hence why my vote keeps changing. only person i know is not scum is me, therefore i am entertaining any and all scenarios in which all of you are various couplings of scum. its called... scumhunting. i've been working my ass off.

Now you are doubting there is a FBI agent again?(750)

do you think there is an fbi agent?

Right now

I believe that we have an fbi agent.

Especially

if we don't have a gunsmith

[/quote]

i 100% agree with the bolded.

Now you are back to hoop/cue scum team?(760+761) Also you implore Sean not to vote for you if he is town, so you believe him now? o.O

all sorts of hell yea. you are very confident for someone with so little contribution.

not following you. a town on town vote loses the game. sean's posts seem sincere.

So you believe he is sincere, yet the next post you vote for him? o.O

yeah. i do that shit all the time. i'm a wild man.

[don_johnson]

Don, this is getting to the point of being ridiculous, and I'm starting to suspect this is a smokescreen for something. Distraction against a Sean lynch, because you're the obvious follow-up choice?

no. i am not sure sean is scum.

No. It's not called scumhunting, it's wreckless, unnecessary play that just serves to incriminate you, and distract everyone else, and has a real chance of losing the game if you're town and leave a vote on a townie long enough. You've voted everyone except Cue today, so you've definitely been voting a townie at some stage.

yes. lylo is one of the best times to scumhunt. for instance, by leaving my vote on you i am giving sean's hypo scumbuddy a chance to hammer. so far, they haven't, which means that cue/dsister may very well be both town.

Know what the weirdest thing is to me? The likeliest scenario we're in this;

One scum from Don/Cue
One scum from Hoopla/Sean

Yet, you've given little to no attention to Cue, when from a town perspective, you must think it's very likely Cue is scum, as you have to find a team out of Hoopla/Sean/dsister, and speaking for myself - that is bogus. Why are you taking a risk on one of us three, when Cue must be likely scum from your perspective?

actually, cue investigated as "no motion". that serves to incriminate him less and less, however, with you being at L-1 overnight and no hammer, he will be reevaluated after your flip.

Answer: Because you're scum. Guys, I've broke the game. Don and Sean are the scumteam.

no. i've got you. i called scum out on day 1(cruelty). you and spyrex took your sweet time pushing that wagon day 1. then spyrex is killed, because you know damn well this would have fallen apart with him alive. fbi claim is weak.

the mere existence of an fbi agent in a mini normal makes the game unwinnable for an sk.

^^ you have never successfully refuted this statement.

if sean/don was the scumteam, then why did i replcae in and try to get him lynched? easy answer to that one: because you were bussing.

but if that was the case, then why would i be unwilling to bus him now?

answer: because we're not scumbuddies.

oh yeah, who counseled against the budja lynch? dj. why would scum try and save a "motion detector"?

dsister and cue: if one of you is sean's buddy, please hammer and end this. if not. you need to seriously reevaluate hoopla as he is one hundred percent scum. of course, one of you may know this.

Cue, dsister, who are we lynching first?

^^ its you or sean. earlier you were "90% sure" that sean was scum. of course, you waited until i voted him to lay down your vote. now why would you do that?

[don_johnson]

I say we lynch Don first. His flip has stark implications to Sean and Hoops' alignments since Sean's Day 2 investigation of Don came up as "no gun." For instance, if Don flips goon or any other non-investigative immune role, then Sean is almost confirmed as Don's scum buddy. If Don flips godfather or any other investigative immune role, then we still have stuff to discuss.

interesting switch here. you think hoop/don is a possibility?

hoop is at L-1. why would i put my scumbuddy to L-1 after seventeen vote changing posts when townsean would have been lynched long ago? if you really think i'm scum, pairing me with hoop is quite assinine. that said: your post above shows absolutely zero scumhunting. have you reread at all? have you analyzed my interactions with anyone?

vote sean or vote hoop. moving the lynch away from the two when at least one is confirmed scum is stupid. with hoop at L-1 and no hammer from you two,

either

hoop is scum

or

both ds and i are scum

or

hoop and ds are scum. if you think its hoop/dj, then you need to explain more than you have.

dsister: do a brother a solid and vote hoop. there's no way fbi agent exists in this set-up. if he's your scumbuddy, just think of the town cred you'll buy for tomorrow.

[don_johnson]

dsister: your last post implies that you think hoop is my scumbuddy. hoop is at L-1. if you think he is scum then hammer.

if you guys think i'm rude i apologize, but i'm getting tired of all this lackidaisical posting. hoop is at L-1. hoop is at L-1. HOOPLA IS AT L-1.

neither of you have hammered which means that neither of you are scum with sean or me. so either hoop is town fbi agent with both scum on his wagon, or hoop is scum.

are either of you planning on posting analysis, or can i expect one-liners and smug quips for the rest of the day? at least one(if not both) of you

has

to be town. start acting like it.

[don_johnson]

i will laugh my ass off if you are scum with sean or cue.

#2 above is quite right. i don't think anyone has made a "case" against me. the main push today was tying me to scumsean. anyhoo...

that's a hammer. truth time.

[don_johnson]

hoop is scum. don't let em fool ya.

dsister/sean might be a stretch. if thats the team then we nailed both scum on day 1. whateverz. we need a mod up in here.

[don_johnson]

a) i called cruelty out as scum on day 1. that's before any night actions. no way scumdon could have known sk existed at that point.

b) cue is 100% clear. barring a bastard mod set-up, no way cue is scum. hoop flipped roleblocker, not 1-shot. it means that he was out roleblocking every night. cue didn't go anywhere night one. so unless scum no killed or didn't roleblock, cue can't be scum and in my experience going down the "what if" road is always fail.

c) i made a clear case against hoop as soon as i went back and reread the thread. saying i'm scum because i figured out that hoop's claim was bullshit is a little backwards.

d) exactly what "scumhunting" has sean done all game? even in lylo all he did was appeal to an "either/or" fallacy.

please reread the thread cue. if you are scum then the game is yours.

821 accuse me of "bussing". sean's vote can easily be construed the same and if your reread the day, it should be obvious that it is more likely a bus than mine.

i'm a little shocked that you would even think i'm scum after all of the information i poured into this thread yesterday.

if you are unconvinced, allow me to reread the entire thread and put together a more coherent case on sean.

think about set-up balance. how does the gunsmith fit? sean is most likely mafia goon. i would say town may be a bit underpowered, but anti-town roles only equal 3, so i think it works.

cue: have you ever gone back to read my case against hoop? did you ever read the particular post i pointed out?

reread yesterday: everyone was pointing the finger at a sean/don scumteam. there was no incentive for scumdon(who would most likely be goon) to bus the roleblocker when the entire town was pairing the goon to the towngunsmith. a townsean lynch would have won the game. a scumdon lynch would have set-up lylo with hoop vs. sean. confirmed town cue would have been dead and dsister would have had no reason to vote anywhere other than sean.

one of the things which had me secondguessing my scumread on you(cue) was your constant willingness to explore all possible options for scumteams. very similar to what i was doing yesterday. had hoop flipped one-shot roleblocker or goon, you would still be a candidate for scum. he didn't, so you can't be(barring extreme early game scum manipulation, i.e. the "what if" scenarios which lead to fail.)

please think this through. allow me to post more. if you are scum, then here's the game:

vote: disgruntledsean

just so you know where i stand. more later.

[don_johnson]

ok. ^^ this post confirms my read.

in regards to my contribution and the assertion of "rl" affecting the game, if there is any particular post or period of time which you are questioning, just cite it by post number. i can easily reference my calendar and tell you exactly what i was doing. i have been full time in a local nursing program since last september. i just graduated on the 19th of may. i also have a history of playing with spyrex. i can expand on that if need be, but understand(and you can meta this) i trust spyrex when i think he's town, and i generally think he's town until day 3. he is an awesome townie and the only time i usually suspect him(barring investigations, etc.) is if he is allowed to survive too long. in any case, i'm glad you didn't hammer as it confirms my read. i will be gone tomorrow with my family, but i will start tearing this thread up when i return if you need me to. i honestly think if you reread the thread you will realize the truth.

[don_johnson]

cue: beach day was cancelled due to rain. sat down and started sifting through. couple things...

around post 620 or so is a good place to look. at that point in the game town still had a motion detector and a macho doc. if i were hoops scum buddy, why on earth would i be pushing him then? if i am scum, then sean is town which means town also would have had a gunsmith. without a roleblocker, i would have had to nk snowwhite. survive a day with two more investigations. nk the motion detector. survive another day with another investigation. etcetera, etcetera...

i was cleared first by sean. if sean was actual gunsmith, why would hyposcumdon allow sean to live longer

and

get off another investigation? both docs were claimed macho. there was no need to keep sean around

let alone

let him investigate another player.

if i were scum i'd have to be immune to gunsmith since sean cleared me, no? but that doesn't make much sense. town has a motion detector which can see any and all other power roles or scum roles, and a gunsmith which can only find 2/3 scum roles? and mind you that zero townies were carrying guns. gunsmith is more likely in a set-up where a townie has a gun. i don't know, this is pretty frustrating. you seem to have had me tunneled the entire game and i get the feeling its more about my playstyle than my content. seriously man, what benefit did scumdon have of putting scumroleblockerhoopla at L-1 in lylo when 3 non-voting players agrred that the most likely scumteam was sean/don? a sean lynch would have won the game and a scumdon lynch would have led to a sean lynch would would have won the game. if hoop flipped goon then that might make sense, but scumroleblocker is one of the most powerful roles scum can have.

more later.

[don_johnson]

well, cue, just be patient,
it's all up to you now,
i thought i would have to re-read but don's pre-mature vote has taken away all question

what's "premature"? cue is cleared. he was cleared the moment hoop flipped roleblocker.

[don_johnson]

cue: try reading sean's iso in reverse. its amusing. apparently he "wanted to kill hoop" before budja". damned if i can find where that is.

[don_johnson]

also, the idea that scum wasn't roleblocking the doc full time until they killed her is a bit out there. no way scum roleblocks sean one night but

doesn't

kill the macho doc. only way they're leaving the doc around is because they know they can handle her, and they know that town's only investigative role is dead.

DisgruntledSean
Col.Cathart TeWuicah Cuetlachtli
icemanE don_johnson

Dead:

SpyreX (Macho Doc, killed night two)
dsister (Macho Doctor, killed night five)
Budja (Motion Detector, lynched Day Three)
WingsOWisdom Vanilla townie
Sotty Vanilla townie
Sidekick vanilla townie
Riddick vanilla townie
don_johnson vanilla townie
cuetlatchi vanilla townie


Hoopla Mafia Roleblocker
disgruntledsean mafia goon.

cruelty (bulletproof SK, lynched day two)


i think that looks pretty balanced.

[don_johnson]

simulpost. my issue with the gunsmith would be that town has one investigative role that can catch all three scum roles in the motion detector. why add another role that could only catch 2/3 of the scum roles with both of those roles being from separate factions?

sean's implication is that i am investigative immune. i come up without a gun. however, what good does that do me in a game with a motion detector when i have to be out doing the killing? the idea of a mafia ninja crossed my mind, but if that was the case then cue could be that role as well. but i think that would be bastard modding.

cue: have you read sean in iso? can you find where he claims to have wanted hoop over budja? sean made only two posts between april 11 and 28. as far as i can tell he was not around in the least during budja's lynch.

i was torn between budja and hoop yesterday,
budja was town, i think she's the roleblocker

^^ here's his first suspicion of hoop. what exactly makes him think hoop is the "roleblocker" in particular? This quote was on the 28th of april.

what's changed since we killed/confirmed sotty,
to all of a sudden deem hoopla worth a vote?

^^ odd wording here. also note the misrep. i clearly stated i wanted hoop over budja. acting as though my vote was "all of a sudden" is off.

here it is:

i wanted to kill hoopla back before we killed budja

funny. earlier sean said this:

i was intrigued by cue's train of thought concerning a sotty/ hoopla connection
if a fakeclaim, hoopla's gun carrying fbi investigator would be perfect for a game with a gunsmith
but i got no gun on sotty

and this:

is the lynch final now or would the countdown resume if someone unvoted?

before these two posts is his cruelty vote.

after is his post where he claims to have been roleblocked(or was it just the result of investigating an investigative immune role?) and then he votes hoop:

i was torn between budja and hoop yesterday,
budja was town, i think she's the roleblocker

he didn't seem "torn" between anything the day before. in fact, he posted twice. with nothing of real content. and magically, he seems to think hoop is a roleblocker. wildly intuitive for a player who claims this is his first game.

now that i'm writing this, i am forgetting about our no lynch. not sure if it makes a huge difference here but i've noticed this gem:

Cue, the time i posted my question about budja's lynch being final,
was the time i had intended to at least post my case on hoopla,
i narrowly missed the hammer. which is exactly why i asked you why you voted budja. i was more convinced of hoopla's guilt mostly by the sheer convenience of her immunity to my investigations and the fact her claim came after mine. along the same line i was convinced that of hoopla, budja and my own role, one must be false. With budja's flip as town, hoopla seemed the next logical lynch. and then to my shock everyone forgot about hoopla, did nothing and allowed another townsperson to be killed.

^^ what happened to the case you were going to post? the only justification you brought forward for your hoopla vote was basically "process of elimination". you never talked about what else made you think she was scum.

but think about it everyone, doesn't a inv immune role and an Rolelbocker make sense with what we know of their night actions? how would you play it as scum with such a set-up?

i would have placed my vote on you and let it ride yesterday. roleblocker is immensley more powerful than investigative immune who has already been investigated and isn't being believed.

what would be the point of having an inv immune role if you block the investigator?
they luck out night one and i clear their immune role (don)
but if they just continue blocking me the rest of the game we might get wise so they let me clear one more person, then start to toy with my usefulness to the town, blocking one night, not blocking the next (after hypo-don tries to manipulate that night's inv.)

you were never roleblocked. you're giving scum all the beneifts here. you are saying that scum had everything go their way. and then, instead of going with what appeared to be the pairing of dsean/dj which regardless of order, would have led to a hyposcum win, dj got extremely selfish and bussed his roleblocker. this is where cue needs to analyze my sig. yes cue, i'm good at being scum. zero chance i ever bus my roleblocker in a situation like that. i win as scum because i'm a good team player.

come on man. start puttin this together. i know its hard, but look at th strength of contribution alone.

[don_johnson]

i'll wait on my next post for sean to start talking. i have more information in regards to the set-up balance and more quotes from sean himself. let me know when you're ready, cue, and i'll start. i'd do it know, but i think its time for sean to answer your questions and respond to my posts.

[don_johnson]

sure cue is town,
but there's no way for any towns person to have known that before he missed his hammer opportunity,

if hoopla sent in the nightkill AND roleblocked, Cue would have shown no movement the night Budja monitored him.

^^ that is generally not allowed on ms or any other site i've played on. only time roleblocker can block

and

kill is if they are the last remaining member of their team.

the only way don could confidently vote me was because he's scum, he's appealing to the town sensibility to be cautious here, obviously there would be no hammer
he chooses who to single out and uses the one townie's hesitation to implicate the other townie

nope. only role cue could possibly posess to be scum is that of

ninja

, and i explained why i'm not going down that road.

Well, cue, just don't let his numerous posts cause you to tunnel on me, just be sure to give us equal amounts of consideration,
actually don was onto something,
read us both backwards and then re-read it taking out all the e's and z's
its crazy man!!
jebus told me the lamp is on fire

yes cue, ignore the facts. don't bother reading my content filled posts. [/sarcasm]

Don, if you're reading my posts backwards, why didn't you notice me telling Cue that i intended to post my case on hoopla versus budja and narrowly missed the hammer, upon noticing i instead posted 'is budja's lynch final?'

i did notice. i pointed it out. you "hesitated"

after

the lynch went through. before that you made very little if any indication in thread that you wanted hoop over budja. you lurked the entire day. you have still not posted this alleged case. the case you've posted on hoop largely revolves around the fact that budja flipped town. when town needed your participation, you were nowhere to be found.

would a person eager to lynch budja over hoopla ask that?

no. a person "eager" to lynch anyone would be participating. not posting two fluff posts over the course of 14 rl days. also, noone said you were "eager" to lynch budja.

don's omitting details to make weak arguments

feel free to fill in the blanks.

to answer your question cue i've known about the online game mafia for a while but mostly heard about it from a girl at a party trying to play some card game version of it, but the way it was described to me was with three factions: town, scum, and a SK. the only PR's i knew about before joining this game were doctor, a cop and roleblocker

but you know the terms bandwagon and pressure vote. okay. i doubt this is your "first" game, but i'm not going to drag out the argument. hows about iso 8? after hoop had already inquired as to a yours and another players experience, you ask iceman:

@iceman: have you played any other games under an alt or on another site?

a nice generic copy of a question already asked by hoopla. in the same post:

@hoopla: does the knowledge that riddick's played under an alt. change how you interpret him?

^^ this post was one you even boasted about making, and yet, something seems so fluffy... why do you need to ask hoop this question when you are using the

same exact

scumhunting tactic as hoop?

also, in regards to day 1. sean clearly stated his ice vote was a "pressure to play" vote, but he camped it on ice, left it on dj, and only unvoted when he accidentally voted himself.

shit, rrr, i missed the join date, i checked his wiki and it seemed he had this game and a newb one. if he was completely new it would be more plausible that he was scum lurking

i didn't check anybody's wiki in my first game. so what? its

less

plausible that he's scum lurking, but you're leaving the vote on him anyway? and how would you know anything about "newb scum" behaviors if this is your first game?

iso 10. probably the most damning. if you need any help there cue, let me know. he stalled on the role claim. i think someone picked up on it right away, but we all just overlooked it and let him play the newb card in his next post. it was a 24 hour stall. he already explained to us that he was using the wiki. not very hard to type in "roles" and pick a believable one. usually caught scum will claim "doc" on day one, take the lynch to trade for the doc, but we didn't realize we were dealing with a 2 player scum team. much better play to try and stay alive.

also, why on earth did he investigate

me

night one? he never posted a case against me. he rode a pressure vote on iceman the entire day. didn't bother to check anyone else out? if i'm scum thats an incredible stroke of luck.

iso 16. maybe a little rolefishing here, discussion of "godfather" role. votes cruelty due to the "numbers game".

then we're at iso 17/18. the more i read 17 i wonder. sean claims to have wanted to lynch hoop over budja. but 17 reads a though his night action information is actually deflating his idea that hoop

is

scum. he was interested in the hoop/sotty connection and so investigated sotty. got no gun. SIX DAYS LATER, after the lynch has gone through, he only asks if the lynch is final. doesn't post a case on hoop. but later says he had one ready at that time. sounds like someone was confident that they weren't getting nk'd. now who would be that confident? townies should be laying out there suspicions each day.

anyhoo. if you have any questions for me, just ask.[/i]

[don_johnson]

we also haven't gotten a night action report from our alleged gunsmith. he should have investigated dsister, don't you think? but we haven't even gotten mention of it. also, sean initially wasn't sure if he'd been roleblocked when he investigated you, or if you were investigative immune. yet he attempted to investigate you again the next night(allegedly). seems like it may have been a better play to try and investigate someone else. but whatever. like i said, cue, ask me any questions you have if need be. otherwise, good luck.

[don_johnson]

Alright, well Don I find it unbelievable that you would trust Hoop all of Day 2 and suddenly distrust him during Night 2 enough to reread Day 2.

and i find it unbelievable that you think scumdon would get off a wagon at L-1 and bus his roleblocker in lylo. but whateverz. also, i didn't reread during the night. i don't read at night. my feelings on hoop are well laid out in this thread. just iso me.

Can you tell me when and why you became suspicious of Hoop?

i think you are misunderstanding. on day 2, my number one suspect was lynched and flipped sk. that meant that any and all connections i had drawn from him to others were now complete junk. so on day 3, i decided to reread the entire thread. when i came to post 382, it didn't jive with what i thought a player with the role of "fbi agent" would write. if you iso my posts you can find a clear trail of my suspicions in that regard. the more i thought about it, the more it didn't fit. i had rl issues which drew my attention from this game. not sure if you saw the post where i mention the death of my grandmother. are you even reading my posts? have you read all of my posts in iso? have you read the entire thread again?

Also, do you have any examples from past games where acted in a similar way as how you did on Days 2 and 3?

no. i play each game differently. sometimes i try different things and sometimes i repeat strategies, but this question is so vague i wouldn't know where to begin. if you want to meta me then do it yourself. you may want to read mini 829- internal struggle mafia. i lost it in lylo for the town because i voted the active player over the claim coasting lurker.

seriously man. look at the facts. we had two doctors. thats a lot of town power. coupled with the motion detector, town could have busted this wide open on day 2 if things swung our way. also, there has been zero flavor with the nightkills in regards to guns. have you iso'd sean?

[don_johnson]

day 1:

sean camps a vote on a virtually absent player. doesn't move the vote until he accidentally votes himself later. sean is run to L-2(L-1?) due to scummy behavior. sean stalls at least 24 hours or so and then returns to claim obscure town power role. plays the newb card. basically lurks out the day.

dj replaces into a slot at L-2(L-1?) and quickly sheds votes due to his play. though one of his supporters is confirmed scum(hoop), another is very much not(spyrex). also, dj correctly identifies scum with rvs analysis(cruelty). dj is active adn helpful with securing a day 1 lynch.

day 2:

dj pursues cruelty, his number one read from day 1. is pulled away from the game due to rl issues, but attempts to remain active and finishes the day on the scum wagon he helped start(cruelty). also, is investigated by sean to reveal no gun.

sean votes cruelty based on "the numbers game." only vote with anything resembling content is his vote post. it is late.

day 3:

dj builds case on hoopla, votes hoopla. asks others to read the case, to wit, he is still not sure if anyone bothered to. aqcuiesces to the budja lynch while making it clear in thread where his suspicions lay.

sean lurks. sean posts his night results and confirms that they actually deflate his suspicion of hoop/sotty. posts after lynch is done asking whether its final. posts no suspicions. takes no stand.

day4:

dj

correctly

identifies the situation as a no-lynch scenario and even though he wants to vote hoop, he ultimately decides to stick to his original thought. i say correctly because there are only certain instances when no lynch is beneficial. dj also wifoms the hell out of the massclaim in an attempt to draw attention away from whatever town power is actually left.

sean votes hoop. claims to have wanted to lynch hoop over budja but uses budja's flip as the main thrust of his case against hoop.

day 5:

dj is arguably the most active player. correctly identifies and lynches scum after exploring as many possibilities and combinations as could exist. documents all of it in thread.

sean votes hoop on same basis as day before(process of elimination), but for some reason seems less confident as he

waits

to vote. sean is at L-1 for 8 hours and not hammered by cue or dsister. sean attempts to tie dj to scumhoop.

hoop attempts to tie dj to scumsean.

dsister(confirmed town) hammers hoop due to hoop's lack of ability to produce a case on dj and dj's ability to actually produce a case against hoop.

i'm kind of spent here. if you have any follow up questions, fire away. otherwise i'll be waiting on the two of you. not exactly sure why sean hasn't crossvoted yet.

[don_johnson]

not sure what "flavor" argument you are referring to, but if you scroll through opening posts you will find that some mods use flavor to differentiate kills and some don't. the fact that none exists in this game certainly doesn't

support

the gunsmith role. but if you want to clarify i am all ears.

[don_johnson]

mod: please prod. this is getting ridiculous.

[don_johnson]

how is it "obvious" that there is an investigative immune role? if you are scum, then that is in no way "obvious". cue was "cleared" by a motion detector and an alleged gunsmith. if you are town, then you should be thinking he was clear the moment hoop flipped. going into night phase i had my suspects narrowed to you and dsister. i already explained my thoughts in regards to cuescum. you went with the surething for your nk. you should have knocked off the doc much earlier, or no killed last night. but unfortunately, you didn't have your experienced partner to help in the decision...

[don_johnson]

^^ more fluff. i'm pretty busy, too. in fact, cue seems pretty caught up with my time period of less activity. i explained it in much more detail than "i'm busy alright". in any case. if you are 100% on me being scum, why aren't you voting? you haven't taken a single stand in this game besides your hoop>no lynch which was a good scum move, and crossvoting your scumbuddy in lylo.(which btw, took you guys for fucking ever. for someone so confident, you really like waiting in lylo situations.)

but whatever. cue needs to post.

[don_johnson]

Hey Don, I am going to take us to the deadline if I have to, so get used to it.

i have no problem with that, i would just like some discussion. sean's basically lurking and you said you had some more stuff to post. i feel like i'm the only one here. if you don't post anything for sean to respond to, or anything for me to respond to, then this threads basically waiting for you. i think i've posted about all i can unless you start asking questions.

[don_johnson]

i think the main issue with that post was its direct contradiction to sean's next post where he votes ice for basically no reason. i'm not sure what you are reading into it or why you would be reluctant to say more. perhaps you are noticing sean's mention of the scum or sk. that would certainly bolster his "newbie" defense as it is consistent with his previous answer to your question of his previous knowledge. however, his next post basically exhibits the same behavior he is condemning in 102. i honestly have no idea of knowing sean's experience level and so i would admit that that is the weakest part of the case against him as he may very well be telling the truth there, but i am also in the position of knowing he is 100% scum, so most of what i produce is going to be ripe with that bias.

i think if you look at that post in the context of his actions you will see exactly why sean was run up on day 1. to that end, he stalled on the claim, and knowing now that the scum were a two man team, that stall would have enabled him enough time to search for an obscure claim which wouldn't definitely result in an either/or lynch situation(i.e. like a "doc" claim usually does).

also, there was very little reason to even speculate on the existence of an sk at that point in time, so i guess you could look at it as a "slip" that sean knew full well that the scum team was only two players and so the chances of there being an sk were greatly increased. or his experienced scum partner could have enlightened him to that fact in pre game talk, if such talk was allowed.

[don_johnson]

town here. i'm glad you came at this with an even keel. yours is never an easy position.

[don_johnson]

tbh, hoop, what sunk you guys was not going for the win in the first lylo. by cross voting you confirmed that one of you was scum. had you expressed more suspicion but taken a more reserved approach i think you could have easily spun my lynch and won the game. cue and dsister played very well in a tough situation and i'll bet you weren't counting on that. i think sean did okay, but i understand your frustration. bussing him earlier may have been your only option, perhaps pushing him instead of budja. you could have then blocked the motion detector and gotten rid of the semiconfirmed macho doc a little earlier. i'm actually rather pleased with this one.