Mini Normal 1133 - Mafia in Venice

[ICEninja]

/confirm

[ICEninja]

Ugh a miller claim. Last time I had one of those it was Parama claiming miller. He then claimed scum after we pushed a huge wagon on him. He was VT. I was very sad. Let's hope this situation isn't so painful.

Here are some standard questions I like to ask:
1) What is your time zone? This is good to know in case we have some oversees players and we're waiting for a post from them.
2) What is your mafia experience here and elsewhere? I like to know the experience levels from players, just in case there are any first timers mostly.
3) How often can we expect a post from you? Just for my personal reference, mostly.

1) I live in PST timezone, which is something like GMT -8.
2) I've played about 15ish games here, and modded a bunch of party setting mafia. Fairly experienced at this point.
3) I post frequently, and with lots of words. If you have a problem with me wall posting, you should say something now. I've been more busy lately though, so it is toned down from what it used to be.

Most of the random votes so far have been useless, save Erratus's. I don't like people who are voting for Erratus right now for being pro-town. That's mostly just AGar.

Vote AGar

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[ICEninja]

The repeated "I'm town!" statement is alignment neutral annoying/amusing, depending on what mood I'm in. Voting based off the most logical reasoning possible in order to get real discussion going helps town. Ergo, pro-town. Ergo, town read. The first 2 votes that Erratus made were done so with much better reasoning than all those silly random votes.

I don't feel like AGar is particularly scummy right now, however. He seemed to genuinely feel that Erratus was the scummiest player at the time of his vote, which would make his vote similarly pro-town. I also generally don't like to have votes up until I have a serious vote.

Unvote

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I feel like penpen's posts are empty and unhelpful.
Ythan asks good questions.
Coyote needs to post.
Exilion is definitely the active player who has contributed the least.
Maemuki, I didn't engage in RQS. I ask these questions every game, and I have presented reasoning as to why I asked each question. There is absolutely nothing random about them what-so-ever.

[ICEninja]

Also, I'd like to point out that Erratus never used semantics. His first vote was because someone claimed to believe someone was scum, and vote someone else. His second point was that Exilion didn't have a defense for the vote placed on him.

[ICEninja]

@ ICE, I just have bad experiences with questioning at this stage. Actually, you doing it was more of a null-tell than anything.

It is a null tell. I do it every game as both scum and as town, as the reasons for wanting to know the answers to that question don't change depending on my alignment.

You're twisting the definition of a word or phrase (in this case, OMGUS) to your liking.

What? Waiting for Erratus to respond to this before I address it.

To anyone who didn't like Erratus's post 57, it was just to prove a point. Nothing scummy about it.

I really don't like the wagon on Erratus at all. I feel like AGar is the only person who is even remotely justified in their vote on him. There is very probably scum somewhere on the wagon of people with weak votes on him.

[ICEninja]

Crap, already a replacement? This better not be like day 1 in my other game, that had like 5 replacements.

*bump* if the other game is still running, I prefer it not to be mentioned in this thread, thx

[ICEninja]

*bump* if the other game is still running, I prefer it not to be mentioned in this thread, thx

My bad. Won't happen again.

Ice: Do you feel my vote on Erratus is unjustified?

It could be worse, but I disagree with it. I suppose it isn't unjustified, however.

I WASN'T VOTING FOR EXILON PRIMARILY BECAUSE HE VOTED FOR ME. THEREFORE IT ISN'T OMGUS. YOU LOSE.

Exactly what I felt the situation was.

I SWEAR TO GOD, AGAR. THAT. IS. NOT. FUCKING. OMGUS. EITHER.

This is over the top though. I don't see why town would get so worked up over this. Perhaps I was too hasty to hand out a town read.

I like Ythan's points against the penpen slot, and he gets further town points for having a MM avatar.

The reason I chose you out of the wagoners is that you were trying desperately to get a wagon. The only other thing resembling a wagon was the one on you, which developed after you tried to get a wagon going at the bottom of page 1.

Forming a wagon in the first couple pages is a scum tell? Can you point out where you saw desperation?

[ICEninja]

It's really not that complex. A guilty person wants to defend themself, an innocent person shouldn't have to. Yes, an innocent person will have to defend themself somewhat, but not in the way you are.

I'm gonna have to agree with Erratus here. It is scummy to defend yourself? What about when scum or misguided townie makes a legitimate looking case against townie? Can you honestly say you've NEVER been lynched as town?

See that? That's quote-spamming. Or the post where I spammed "I'm town!" I'm saying the same exact thing, way more than is necessary, to the point where it

can be considered

is horribly obnoxious and

annoying.

Slightly altered for truth. Enough already.

[ICEninja]

Holy cow that's a lot to read.

It's actually OoT.

Oh really? The same face might be in both, then.

Your town read was based on his logic. You drop it based on his tone. Dislike.

When did I say I lost a town read based on tone? Saying that town has no reason to get worked up like this is logic. Or am I wrong? If I am, then attack my supporting points, not my conclusion.

I'm really sorry about this, but I want to be replaced. I'll stay in until I find one myself, but I can't keep playing with someone who uses personal attacks and swearing to try to make his point.

See Erratus? Look what you did. You're scaring the kids away.

I feel like there's too much "black and white" opinions right now. Either people think something along the lines of "this is the way everyone thinks and behaves and this situation always means thing", or "no, each situation is completely different and unrelated". The truth of the matter is that true situations are somewhere in between. Each situation must be judged on its own merits, but similar situations bear connections.

Having 2 FoSs early in the game is not scummy. It simply means 2 people have done suspicious things. That is literally ALL it means. Some people are more vocal about officially giving FoS, others like me simply voice suspicion. It IS a fact that it is normal for 2 people to do suspicious things early in the game, and all this nonsense otherwise is silly.

That being said, I think it is very silly to be stating such things. There should have been no need to defend having 2 FoSs in the first place, because it isn't a scum tell at all.

Alright mozamis, 14 posts in a row is NOT acceptable. Please combine your posts next time.

Yes, this is obviously OMGUS.

Actually, it is obviously not OMGUS. The original person to accuse him of OMGUS (Exilion) has conceded the point that it was NOT OMGUS.

But i fail to see why evryone is getting so worked up by EA. Yes, he is obviously trying to cover up his OMGus vote by BS argumunets, but probably just cos he knows he made a mistake.

This looks like either distancing or laying the seeds to later come back with a scum tell. Slightly scummy.

This vote seem completely unprovoked.
Slight scum read.

That was a random vote. In the RVS. And you're calling it a slight scum read? No good.

well if people want to talk about his miller claim, then we are free to do so. Why are you so dismissive of what seems quite an imporatant post?

You just said this regarding the miller claim:

Am ignoring this. Could be scum trying to mess with us. Could be true.

You're very all over the place, and seem to be trying to paint AGar as scummy for no reason. More scum points.

AGREE 100 PER CENT.

That was regarding me defending Erratus.

although exilon is keen to defend EA. Scumtell or just trying to be objective? Too early to tell.

This was the next post.

Yeah not liking mozamis.

Vote mozamis

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[ICEninja]

I'm liking AGar less and less, especially with post 154. Erratus really looks in the right to me here.

[ICEninja]

I echo Maemuki's interests in to moz's scum read. Please explain, preferably with quotes or post links, why you feel she is scummy.

Budja, you never actually stated why you voted plague. You talked about Erratus the entire post, and voted plague without comment. Why did you vote plague? Is the the scummiest player right now? Who are you suspicious of otherwise?

Happy birthday Fatso. Please start playing soon.

Ythan, I could be mistaken, but you haven't placed a vote yet. Who are you suspicious of? You call a lot of people out and make some good points and such, but I can't recall you ever really attacking anyone yet.

Klazam has contributed zero content. I have noticed this.

Maemuki, what do you think about your vote now considering pen replaced?

[ICEninja]

Penpen/Budja, Plague, maybe Evil. You are my top suspects. Answering questions better than your competitors will save you from my vote.

Right. That's almost exactly what I was looking for. And fairly justified, too. Yes I know you're being fairly aggressive, but I just missed that post. Without it, you've done a lot of questioning and such without a lot of saying who is scummy. With it, I'd say you're a decent town read. And yes, this game does have some pretty good players in it, so it might be difficult to get a solid case off the ground.

[ICEninja]

Red, what do you think about my post regarding moz, and the points I made regarding him? Your quotes regarding him in post 186 just seem...wrong...somehow. I'm having a difficult time putting it in to words. You pat him on the back for making a "good point", you thank Exilion for bringing up a point about his contradiction, and give a very gentle endorsement to the moz "wagon", which was only my vote at the point in time.

Something just doesn't feel right.

Nice job looking in to Klazam, Mae. I'll have a look at the amount of content and time stamps of his posts to see if what he is saying makes sense or not.

[ICEninja]

I'm caught up but I ran out of time to really post tonight. I just wanted to put forth something that I felt was really bad and needs extra attention:

Ok. Out of all the players, I would say that Moz, NE, or spacepope is scum. Out of these, Moz and SP feel like too easy votes for me to make, so i'll wait on that, but I find NE scummier, due to the reasoning above, so I’ll vote NEvil.

Not voting for someone because they're "too easy" means either one of two things. Either you're using the "too scummy to be scum" fallacy, in that its so easy to vote for them that they couldn't possibly be scum, or you're worried that voting for who you feel is scummy is bad for you because people think you're voting for the easy lynch. Town doesn't worry about such things.

Don't like this at all.

[ICEninja]

It feels as though they could very well be just bad players. I'm holding off on them but i'm slightly more sure about you.

Then why didn't you say that? That has an ENTIRELY different meaning than "the other two votes are too easy, so I'm going to vote for you instead". You made absolutely no indication that one read was more solid than the others, and I really feel that, with the wording you stated, that the only 2 true meanings could be the ones I've stated above. I'm leaning towards you being concerned about your appearance based on which wagon you jump on. I'm not ready to unvote moz yet, but you're making me feel darn close.

Currently looking for a replacement for Budja... *sigh*

Aww sorry man, it's my fault. I jinxed the thread with what I said. I should have known better, my girlfriend yells at me all the time about that. I've learned to never ever say anything about red lights .

[ICEninja]

Looks to me like moz is giving a lot of excuses about why he doesn't have any scum reads instead of reading the game to get scum reads. Seems like it would be easy enough to pick through the MANY cases made to find someone who either makes a convincing case or someone who makes a terrible case. The former should give you a scum read on the casee, and the latter should give you a scum read on the caser.

Too bad all you seem to care about is explaining why you don't have any scum reads, explaining why you've been useless to town, and seem to be trying to get out of doing it.

Either you're unwilling to play towards a town win condition, or you don't have one to play towards. Judging by your post count, I'd say you've got the willingness to play to your win condition.

I've got a gut scum feeling towards Klazam for an unknown reason beyond what I've already said. I'll spend some time tomorrow qualifying this feeling. I still feel like some of Red's posting has just been off. I'm also having a hard time putting a finger on that, but something about him just doesn't seem quite town to me.

Exilon and NE have been looking more town to me the past couple pages. Ythan continues to make good posting.

We've got a good 5 or so days before we should start thinking about forcing a claim, so give me some time to solidify my reads on players other than moz (who I have spent extra time on) before we put him at L-1.

[ICEninja]

If you're going to argue bad logic in a game I'm going to press it until you stop.

I actually agree with NE here. The semantics Klazam is using to attack here (between contradiction and fence sitting) don't really matter. What moz did can be called contradicting, and it can be called fence sitting. Arguing which it should be is arguing pointless semantics instead of looking at the motives behind the actions, which is where one truly finds alignment.

[ICEninja]

This moz wagon has fallen in to place a bit easy for my taste. That being said:

That's your reason for voting me

If you think that case on you is bad, then for crying out loud

do something

about it. Stop whining about how bad the cases on you are, there is a LOT of material. Stop whining about how you can't get reads on people, and just do it. Re-read everyone in ISO, look for fishy things, find it in context and see if it makes sense. I really don't want you lynched before you do this, but if you keep posting without doing it, then town isn't going to have a choice.

Red is still bothering me, and I looked in to why. Turns out he's hedged his statements. Looking through everything he's said about moz, there is equal part saying he's scummy and thing subtly implying he doesn't think he's scum. Town is sometimes uncertain, but town has no reason to hedge their vote reasoning just in case the person flips town. I feel like Red will have a lot to point back on saying "Yeah see I said this stuff and it was town posting". He seems to know he'll flip town.

Klazam isn't looking good either. Look through his ISO and see how much mention there is of moz before today. Now look at everything he says today. I don't like that. I also still don't like his "those votes are too easy" statement.

This thread needs some more Shattered, because his vote on moz was pretty awful.

I'm not ready to go back on my scum read of moz, but I see a lot of scum activity directed towards her.

(how do I link?)

You type [ url="insert copy pasted url here" ]text you want the hyperlink to say here[ /url ] without the spaces by the brackets.

[ICEninja]

Well I was most suspicious of rat, for that obviously scummy hammer, but it looks like someone handled that. I had a case ready and everything. Looks like I'll have to go do more reading.

Since day 1 and night 1 went so ridiculously well, it might actually make sense to do a mass claim and just mop up. There should be no way town is losing this game.

[ICEninja]

The reason I think a massclaim right now would be good is because their role blocker is dead. This means a lot. Since the dead player is a role blocker, we can probably assume that there is only a single mafia family. There was also no distinction between one dead player and another. If we have a doctor, which is very likely considering the no townie kill, then we probably have a confirmed town (and 2 if you count the doctor). If we have a vig, that stands as another confirmed town and someone scum will be forced to night kill. If we have a cop with a guilty result, that should be claimed ASAP as it could lead to a perfect game (assuming 3 scum). Even a cop with an innocent result clears himself and a townie, and probably won't be NKed right away because of a doc.

Other roles that could have prevented the night kill such as jail keeper can also claim. This gives us indefinite information (as the person could have been the NKer or the NKie), but it gives us somewhere to start. EVEN MORE additionally, the death of a mafia roleblocker indicates that there is probably no more scum power roles. Scum is going to claim power role at dire peril to themselves, as a lone scum needs to focus on self preservation at an absolute 100% maximum here.

I think there is a decent chance that, considering the number of lynches we have, town could have a guaranteed victory here. For example, vig, doc who saved someone, and cop with an innocent clears 5 people by claiming, which means scum won't really stand a chance of night killing all of them before lylo.

That being said, I'm perfectly happy holding off too. I just think it is a pro-town idea considering the circumstances.

On a side note, this is very scummy:

Lynch me if you wish. I just want to point you all in Ythan's direction.

[ICEninja]

Alright, forgetting a miller claim is just. not. town.

Stop the massclaim, we're done. Town wins.

Vote Klazam

L-1 by my count.

[ICEninja]

And this will be quite a quick lynch. most players havent even posted.

For all my gusto of being pretty sure you're scum, it is in town's best interest to not lynch you quite yet. Everyone needs to comment first.

This IS a mislynch.

I'd say the same thing if I was on the chopping block - as virtually any role. It's a fairly loaded statement.

[ICEninja]

ICE - I see your logic, but I didn't see the need to drag it on when we have Klazam cornered here. I'm with RC - tomorrow will be appropriate but today is just not the call.

If you'll notice in my 342, I changed my mind about the mass claim in agreement with you.

How is it hilarious? Popcorn is obvious and best way of doing it. I volunteered to go first and I picked who I thought to go second. Then you want to quicklynch Klazam because you are "confident" he is scum.

It was "hilarious" because you began a mass claim before everyone was even in agreement. That was very poor form, though I'm not sure it's scummy.

It should also be noticed that ICE's reasoning has a bit too much PR's in it than one might expect in a mini normal. At least, from my experience.

If scum has a PR, it would be unusual for town to NOT have 3 PRs. We know there is either a vig or SK. I don't see SKs running around minis too often, so I'm going to run with the assumption that it was a vig. Likewise, we have some kind of kill prevention (unless scum simply messed up, which I've seen happen before in a couple games). That would indicate a doctor, role blocker, or jail keeper as suitable roles for normal games. Role blocker is unlikely because scum had one. Therefore it is (fairly) safe to assume that there is either a doctor or jail keeper.

If Klazam is indeed a miller, than it is safe to say we have a cop. Even if there isn't, a doctor/vig/cop is pretty standard. If we have a jail keeper instead of doc, it is possible that the JK counts as our informative role, and we have something less powerful than a cop.

If Rat's death was caused by an SK and we don't have a vig, then there's no telling what kind of crazy town PRs will be flying around a mass claim tomorrow.

I know it seems like I'm dwelling a lot on the PRs, but I win or lose games by how well they perform. I don't always have as much faith in them as I do myself as a PR, so that's why I wanted the claim. My single best skill in mafia is setup dissection and using logic gained from set information to win the game.

[ICEninja]

I just realized something. ICEninja said that a hammer should not happen soon, but he placed the L-1 vote, Which seems like he is inviting a hammer to happen. Hmm?

There are benefits to putting a scum suspect to L-1 that putting someone at L-2 does not have. You haven't shown any additional indication of being scum having been at L-1 so it hasn't paid off, but I'm voting you because I genuinely think you are the best lynch for today. Just because I don't think your lynch should happen YET doesn't mean I shouldn't vote you yet (assuming my vote isn't the hammer, of course. Which it wasn't.)

Assuming I'm town, what would the best thing i can do for you all before I'm lynched? I recognize that my lynch is pretty much unavoidable, but i want the town to win, so what can i do to help this happen?

If you speak from the heart, then a case against Ythan (as detailed as possible) would be good, and any other secondary scum suspects you have. Also analyzing who the weakest members on your wagon and why, as well as everyone's reactions to your play, would give us a jump start in to day 3. If you do indeed flip town, there will be some players who have been more opportunistic than others, and you'll have an unbiased view if you indeed are town.

Honestly if you're the last scum, you may as well just self hammer at this point because your team has lost the game. If you are indeed the last scum then I genuinely feel bad for your team, but there's no reason to stretch it out longer than necessary. If you genuinely are town aligned, then what I said above is probably the most you can help us.

[ICEninja]

That was a very short day.

If he's actually a miller, then there's probably a cop. That means it is less likely that there is a jail keeper, indicating that there's either a doctor or scum messed up.

There is possibly an SK, but vig seems more likely. That is my guess anyway.

[ICEninja]

If Klazam is town, I think NE looks a lot worse.

[ICEninja]

Oh the suspense, it kills me.

[ICEninja]

A mass claim needs to happen today. Try not to give too much information about the setup before the mass claim.

Wait for everyone to agree that the mass claim is a good idea. Because it is. If someone thinks it isn't, then I'll convince you why it is.

Just make a post saying the mass claim is a good idea.

[ICEninja]

For crying out loud Space, wait for 100% of players to agree first.

[ICEninja]

Waiting for Red and Ythan.

[ICEninja]

What if they refuse to participate?

[ICEninja]

It won't stop me from claiming, but it will damage the integrity of the claim.

It wouldn't really be a concern except for the fact that Ythan expressed that there was "no town reason" to mass claim yesterday, and may have similar feelings today.

Red has already stated that he would probably support a mass claim for today, so we really only need to hear from Ythan before continuing.

[ICEninja]

Whatever. If Ythan refuses to claim then I will find that extremely suspect and vote him. AGar can claim when he wants to.

[ICEninja]

Mod, maybe since it's holding up the game, we can toss a slightly premature prod to Ythan?

[ICEninja]

Analyze claims after all claims are through, please.

Agreed.

And Coyote, grow some balls and pick someone. That looks bad.

Agreed.

[ICEninja]

That would leave me last. I'm the cop. Night one I investigated RedCoyote, got a town read on him. I bread crumbed this slightly in saying that he was probably my biggest scum suspect leaving day 1, but I believe I made no mention of him day 2. Last night I investigated NE, and got a town read on him. I investigated NE because, as I said in my day 2 play, I would be more suspicious of NE if Klazam was indeed a miller as he said.

I believe the doc and vig claims 99%, as scum with a role blocker as part of their team and a town with a miller on their team almost makes town look underpowered without 3 really strong power roles. Since those power roles were claimed late with no counterclaim, I think its safe to say we're probably all solid. The fact that I was protected night 1 with no night 1 town death should prove my innocence beyond a doubt, and the death of a scum role blocker makes me about 99.9% sure there is no scum godfather.

I'm also almost positive I'm a sane cop as well.

Town has guaranteed won this game. We simply can't lose. Nice vig shot on night 1, Exilon. Props for that.

Let's lynch Pope today, I'll investigate AGar tonight and Exilon shoots Maemuki tonight. That leaves what, Ythan? Scum can't night kill us both, and because of the doctor may not be able to kill either of us. Even if the absolute worst happens and we can't round scum down to the last suspect by tomorrow, there will be fewer unconfirmed players than we have mislynches to spare.

Scum, if you want to concede at this point, I wouldn't blame you.

Vote Space Pope

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[ICEninja]

My case is that you were the first unconfirmed player that popped in to my head. AGar was the second, Maemuki was the third, and I had to look at the player list to find Ythan.

Good enough?

So long as this setup is legitimate and there aren't any (repeatedly) missed night actions, town really has no chance to lose this one. I think even if town does absolutely nothing any night and randomly lynches any unconfirmed town during the day, town still wins. Scum would enter lylo with 2 confirmed town.

[ICEninja]

But it seems weird to me that there's 3 PR's, and only a miller and a scum RB. but oh well.

Maybe my experiences are different, but every game that has a miller has a cop. If you really think there's a fake claim, it would most likely be you as SK. Even so, scum PR + miller almost guarantees that there would be 3 town PRs, so I really do think all of the claims are true.

[ICEninja]

What are the odds NE or Red is a godfather? Red was one of my more solid scum reads, and even during day 2 I was thinking "man it was good I investigated him or I'd seriously think he's scum". That is the only real concern I have at this point.

It is also physically possible that our claimed vig is indeed an SK. If Exilon shoots someone other than Mae/AGar/Ythan, he should probably be lynched tomorrow.

Don't make an "oopsie" of this, Ythan.

That being said, Space Pope is behaving in a way I would expect scum to considering the circumstances. Seeds of doubt.

I seriously feel like town would be underpowered if any of the claimed power roles are fake claims. Think about it, considering scum has a role blocker, if Exilon was SK, that would leave town brutally vulnerable. the cop/doc partnership is easily thwarted by the role blocker, and if either of them dies before day 2, which would be fairly likely considering SK, town would be horribly doomed.

Without a cop, doc/vig is in a similar boat, brutally weak. Vig isn't the most pro-town role, and docs aren't usually game changing like cops are.

Cop/vig is already impossible unless scum forgot to make a kill, considering night 1 had no kill. This is even more compelling evidence that all 3 claims are indeed true.

The only one, in my eyes, that can be possibly fake claim is Exlion. If he correctly shoots tonight, as I suggested, then we're fine. If at any point he shoots confirmed town, lynch him as he is obviously SK.

I see no holes in my plan as presented earlier, save the very slight possibility of either Red or NE being a godfather. If the game isn't over tomorrow, we'll devise a plan just in case one of them is. Town should win this EVEN IF one of them is.

[ICEninja]

Take the likelihood that the role will appear and divide that by the number of living players who might be lying.

I wasn't asking for an exact calculation. I was simply voicing my understanding that this is the only plausible threat to town at this point. It was more wondering out loud, really. For terms of how we should play today, it doesn't really matter. If we lynch today, investigate tonight, shoot tonight, and still haven't come up with scum, then we'll need to actually think about it.

Physically possible? Sounds like weasel word. It is quite possible that the claimed vig in the otherwise town/mafia game is sk. Or that he is vig. Could go either way.

Seems extremely unlikely that town's only powers are cop and doc considering both miller and role blocker, as I stated in my previous post.

Oopsie?

By that I don't mean decide to kill someone like RedCoyote and say "oops I thought he wasn't confirmed town". That would result in us lynching him, which could be very bad if he is indeed town. That would cost us as many as 4 confirmed town, putting us back on even footing with scum instead of having an overwhelming advantage. So let's not do that.

In what way could Pope act that would not read scum to you?

I can't answer a negative like that, really. I don't know how he could act in a way that wouldn't read as scum, but I just feel a subtle disappointment coming from him. Considering the circumstances for scum, I would expect it to be difficult to hide some frustration, dispair, or at the very least some bitter disappointment. I would have a hard time hiding it, anyway.

I'm figuring the doctor is going to die tonight, unless scum is the person who is being investigated by me (and I'm the target, out of desperation) or the scum is the person who will be shot by Exilon (and he is the target, out of desperation). In the case that the doctor dies tonight, I figure both Exlion and I target the remaining unconfirmed player simultaneously, on the expectation that one of us will be night killed. Either way, the slot will be dead, confirmed town, or confirmed scum.

Worst case scenario and Red/NE is godfather, they can put us in to lylo if they NK exactly right.

[ICEninja]

Actually, the thought occurred to me that AGar would also have the potential to be a godfather. I can't believe I didn't consider that. If we are indeed facing a godfather, things might be really tricky. Let's hope AGar, NE, and Red are all VT.

[ICEninja]

Either way we'll have the flip now. Please stick to the plan. I'll investigate AGar, and Maemuki needs to get shot, unless you want to take out Ythan instead. That would be fine also. Just don't shoot confirmed town or AGar.

[ICEninja]

AGar is town.

Good game, Ythan. Im sorry about day 1 and night 1 for you, that really didn't work out. You definitely got caught in a crappy situation.

Vote Ythan

.

Now I'm just crossing my fingers and praying there is no Godfather.

[ICEninja]

At this point in the game I assume any superstitious types will forgive me for commenting on the night action. Dead dubious-vig instead of dead cop or doctor who kind of confirm each other?

I actually did a lot of thinking on it, scum killing the doctor wasn't really an option because it then allows town to get as many helpful informative actions as possible. I thought that if scum killed the vig, that would give them the best likelihood of winning, especially if they have a godfather. At this point in the game, there is no point in night killing me as I have cleared every single player in the game bar Ythan. I don't have any helpful night actions, so at this point I am a VT who has done a hell of a lot of good, but it wouldn't help scum much to kill me. Also because of NE's previous habits, it would indicate that he's more likely to protect me than Exilon, which apparently was true.

I have to admit I was very slightly relieved when Exilon died and flipped vig. We have no SK to worry about.

[ICEninja]

Far enough. If Ythan is indeed town, and scum has a Godfather, I'm most suspicious of Red. He played the most like he was trying to get a cop inspection. He never had good cases for the people he was voting for, and I just didn't like his play. I could read much more in to it but I obviously never bothered, getting innocent on him night 1.

If there is a Godfather, then NE will die tonight for sure. There's no way scum can let a doc live. I'm not really suspicious of NE in any way shape or form, as I believe his claim completely. AGar would be my second choice, but that's just simply because he'd be the last player left.

If AGar is a Godfather, then we probably lose. If today's lynch isn't conclusive, then I'll go through and read AGar just to see if he played anything that would suggest he'd want someone to investigate him, but I think for now, Ythan is our scum.

NE, considering scum already had a role blocker, I'm going to run with the assumption that scum doesn't have a Godfather. That being said, Red is definitely my pick for who is if Ythan is innocent.

I'm not. I'm still comfortable with The Plan as our best chance. I just expected to see a different flip.

This reads to me as scum. If you know you're VT and that tomorrow is lylo with a Godfather, then why in God's name would you be saying the plan as our best chance? Scum would do whatever they can to appease the town. Obviously regardless of the role I'd see the player fighting for their life, but regardless of your role, being OK with being lynched today is against your win condition. Who plays the suboptimal play to appear as town? Town sure doesn't.

[ICEninja]

That was probably pre-mature, but I agree with the action.

Is the game over, Ythan?

[ICEninja]

It should be beyond a shred of doubt that I am who I say I am at this point. It is between AGar and Red. I've already made it clear who my lynch preference is for today, but I will not be placing a vote any time soon.

Last night I investigated lewarcher82. I got a mod read on him.

It should go without saying that both of you need to build cases on the other. I'm not exceptionally convinced by Red's case, it felt pretty weak to me, but it's something. I'll do some reading of my own, as Godfathers tend to have a behavior of their own in attempting to get investigated. In memory, I do recall Red doing this, but I want to be absolutely sure about this.

I'd like to make a quick apology to town at this point. I feel like I've overstepped my power role a bit in controlling the town, and I'm going to feel awfully stupid if I'm the reason we lose. I'll do my best to take this game home.

[ICEninja]

I'm slamming him for carrying out a tired, broken argument long past its welcome. Do you want to know why AGar was pushing EA for crap so hard going on ten pages during the game? Because his partner penpen/Budja was getting more and more pressure by the page.

This is pretty reasonable, but You're really going to need more than this to convince me here. I'll do my own reading, but you're really going to have to put forth some effort here.

I'm quoting this because I want you both to recognize that both of you have always been fairly stable townreads for me. This isn't too important in AGar's case, obviously, but I've said it once or twice, ICE, that I've consistentally seen you as town.

Every game that I'm town in, people say that I'm town. It doesn't really help your position much to be buddying me about that because my role tends to be pretty obvious. When I'm scum, I get lynched day 1. When I'm townie, I either get night killed or lynched by scum late in the game.

Let's face it, those rat and SV are basically lurker lynches. Especially SV. There's absolutely nothing to read on that slot.

Can anyone give me a summary of the rat case? Nothing Budja said stuck out at me.

This actually, in my eyes, looks really bad for you. You had some sort of suspicion there, but you never really "saw" it, and even went as far to dismiss it as a lurker lynch (bad). This could easily be you having wanted an outstanding scum read on a partner to point back to later (now), but subtly trying to prevent the wagon.

[ICEninja]

Alright. I'm confirmed not scum now.

There is a lot of pressure, though. Give me some time to mull things over. I really don't want to throw this to a coin toss.

[ICEninja]

WHOA big slip.

That was a solid, worthwhile lynch that needed to happen. Anyone who screws up a claim, one, two, is a supposed Miller in a game

that has a Godfather

and a Cop, and three, is still living with two scum down, should eat a lynch.

We did NOT know that there was a Godfather at this point in the game. Town didn't know there was a Godfather until Ythan flipped town at the end of day 4, in fact.

Having a townread on Exilon is irrelevant, and I'm not sure why you're trying to use who you had townreads on to justify that point. Your behavior has looked as if you were intentionally trying to avoid attention throughout.

This isn't the first time he's done this today either, always trying to say that "hey look my town reads were right!". It isn't something town would need to do at this point.

I'm REALLY close to ending the game, with that slip, but I still want to dig a little deeper. A lot rests on this vote.

[ICEninja]

Alright so my case on Red so far:
1) The way he interacted with moz and the moz wagon just isn't townie for some reason. It was just really weird. Posts 186 and 204 are specifically what I'm talking about. His comment to Exilon, some of his points, then saying how a lot of what I pointed out was null just felt off to me and I never really could figure out why.

2) The reasons Red gave for lynching have never once really been "I think this person is scum". This is his vote for moz:

Either a distressed town or a panicky scum. Either way, if this is his idea of moving forward in this game, then he's not going to be helpful to us

regardless of his alignment

.

This is a weak vote, and could very easily be busing after he knew his partner was gone. A Godfather busing a goon is all but standard. Notice too that the role blocker was the hammer.

Here is his vote on Klazam:

Even if he is just a Miller, it's a good political tactic to just use a lynch on him now.

I can't really find anything in his ISO that suggests he had any semblance of a case on Klazam at all. Scum was desperate for some mislynches at this point, and I could see this being used to draw investigation as well.

The closest he ever comes to actually having a scum read on someone he votes is Space Pope, who had already been hammered at the point.

It would kind of fit, actually if he was a Godfather role. He tried to get his VT claim out there in a rush to entice the supposed Cop, knowing both that the Cop would not want to investigate a PR and that his role slot was one of the more controversial. In other words, it's like he was trying every subtle thing he could to get that investigation.

Maybe I'm reading too deep, but this feels a bit like projecting to me.

3) After I cleared him as town, Red became practically a non-presence in the game, until lylo where it was clear there is a Godfather. He coasted by completely. Sure spring break might have interfered with part of this, but probably not to the extent that Red coasted. It is exactly what scum would want to do in a situation where Godfather is cleared, anyway. Don't give town any reason to question the clear, and hope they'll kill a different "cleared" player.

I had a 4th smaller point but I forgot it.

[ICEninja]

My case against AGar:

Very little. I think this guy is town.

If it was a closer call, I'd have Red respond to my case before the hammer, but if AGar really is scum then I'd say he deserves this win simply by such good playing. Red looks pretty scummy, and AGar doesn't.

Here it goes.

Cross fingers, vote RedCoyote

.

[ICEninja]

Wow. Holy crap...

Well my role was useless. Roleblocker, miller, Godfather. I really wish I wasn't the cop in this game. I'm in a really pissed off mood from something completely unrelated to this game, so I'll make my comments on everything when I'm more clear headed and not about to punch the nearest orphan in the face.

I'm sorry, town =(.

[ICEninja]

Man so much went well for AGar. He was truly screwed going in to day 2, really. He decided to change the kill to Erratus away from me, who was protected, and then the mass claim...oh man. Looking at my "plan", I could have decided to inspect 1 of any 4 people. Had I chosen someone not AGar, town would have ASSUREDLY won. It would have gone exactly the same way as it did for Ythan, maemuki, or Space Pope.

Then with the 50/50 I had left, I chose the wrong lynch. Had everything, starting day 3, been completely randomized (and a good amount of it was), then AGar had a 1/8 chance of success. Some of that belongs to you man, but you got lucky and you know it.

I definitely played my role correctly, but I did a poor job of it. Part of it was luck, part of it was complacency. I didn't think it was possible for scum to have a role blocker, Godfather, AND a miller all. It just seemed like too much to mess with a cop than would be realistic.

I suppose I should have been wary when learning that Exilon was not a 1 shot vig. He wasn't even a compulsive vig, which means that town had 3 very strong power roles, so scum, I suppose, needed something to balance.

That being said, AGar managed to avoid suspicion from virtually everyone for virtually the entire game. I read his ISO, and simply couldn't find much to lynch him with, and there was plenty against Red. So you played well, and deserve a (lucky) win.

I agree with Red's sentiments for the mod, the game ran very smoothly. Thank you for modding.

Props again to Exilon for nailing the role blocker on night 1, that was vicious. Props again to Necessary Evil for saving me night 1. That was a great move. I wish I played my roll with as much success as you two did.

[ICEninja]

The doc should have protected the vig instead of the cop after massclaim, the vig is a better role even if the godfather is NK-immune.

I touched on this earlier. Scum's only real hope of taking the game home was, honestly, to have that vig killed.

[ICEninja]

He wouldn't have been alive by the end of night 4 though.

[ICEninja]

Actually if you saved him, yes he could have shot. With Exilon saved, AGar "cleared", we would have lynched Ythan with myself, Exilon, and NE still alive with Red. NE would have been night killed for sure after the doc save. That would leave myself, AGar, Exilon, and Red. Exilon can shoot either Red or AGar, and we're lylo with 2 actually confirmed town. For example, Exilon could have shot Red, and I would have lynched AGar over Exilon for incredibly obvious reasons. It wasn't an SK, and with the possibility of a Godfather, I would have definitely lynched AGar. I'm almost positive Exilon would have gone with it, as well.

That's yet another thing that went just right for scum haha.

[ICEninja]

Not that I'm blaming you, Evil, it was more my fault than yours. I'm just saying.