Mini 1199 - Plissken's Pit [GAME OVER]

[Locke Lamora]

Hi all, at work right now but will get a proper post in tonight.

[Locke Lamora]

Not quite finished reading through yet, but the one thing that stuck out to me on D1 was SomeRandomGuy. There's basically no intent to hunt scum in his posts at all until 8 or 9 posts in, which is nearly a week of the game, and even once he actually takes a stance on Malp, he still qualifies it and doesn't really put any real force behind his argument when doing so. The fact that he came in right as other people were trying to get things going and just ignored the state of the game to start a series of random questions speaks to me of a desire to bog down the game in pointless discussion rather than find scum. A lot of people seem to be guilty of doing very little on D1, but SRG actively takes the game away from scumhunting, which is worthy of my vote.

Vote: SomeRandomGuy

I'll finish my reread and get some more thoughts up later.

[Locke Lamora]

Rikana: are you arguing that if Peregrine thought this slot was scum, he would be voting instead of FoSing?

SRG: I'll gloss over the fact that you have the details wrong and address the main issue here. Other people were trying to get the game going in a direction that might actually find scum. You can say it wasn't having much effect, in your opinion, but you can't deny that people had moved away from RVS and were voting and making genuine accusations. You did nothing - and I mean nothing - to try to continue that. You didn't even acknowledge that. Even after that initial RQS post, when there was an interchange of more substance between Rikana and Bristep, you don't address that at all. The contrast between you and other players who didn't offer much on D1 is that you were still posting content - it just seemed to have very little to do with the actual point of the game. When I see a lot of words and no scumhunting, I think scum.

So is it normal for you to spend several days at the start of the game without putting any effort into finding scum? Is it normal for you to ignore the interactions between other players? What do you think you got out of RQS that helped you to scumhunt, and why did you prefer that to analysing the existing arguments in the game? Why do you think I'm scum when all I seem to have done is some fairly accurate analysis of your D1 play? As far as I can tell, you agree with what I've said in terms of how you've played, but your defence is that other people have done the same things as you have.

FightingShadow: when you said that SRG didn't do himself any favours in his page 12 exchange with IS, what were you referring to specifically? Why do you find him apparently less scummy now?

Peregrine: I can't find why you think Rikana following Bristep's ideas is actually scummy. I get that you think the idea is flawed, but I don't see the progression to why it's scummy.

[Locke Lamora]

IS, who do you think is the member of the scumteam taking the lead in this game?

[Locke Lamora]

Sorry all, had very little time. I'm going to point out the worst post in relation to the JAM lynch and break it down:

The one thing that I don't like about this mislynch is the fact SRG didn't know he wasn't headed toward the gallows. I mean, I think if I were actively playing I'd know just how far away I was to getting killed. But then again, he isn't that active, and he's really been contributing now. Plus I love his use of "hella" which for those who don't know, means he's a Nor Calian, and we gotta stick together.

Of the people on the hammer, I find Locke townish. Just a feel. yabba is extremely town, but somehow too much so. Gut read would say scum but I have nothing much to go off on other than intuition. Emp, I find scum. IS hard to say. Not town. Neutral. And lastly JAM... well here goes.

The hammer is obviously scummy. And obvious enough for scum to actually do it since this a crucial point in the game. Meaning, JAM is the sacrificial kinda scum that would be worth it since if SRG went through, scum would have an upper hand. Guessing at the amount of scum there are of course. So it is scummy, no matter how obvious it looks. I've found JAM to be hazy this game, definitely not town. So JAM looks a lot better than the SRG lynch so there you have it.

Unvote, Vote: JAMFTW

So here are the scummy things about this post:

1. He goes out of his way to provide some crappy reasons why SRG still shouldn't be the lynch. Up to this point he's basically said nothing about SRG other than that he hasn't really got a read on him. Now he apparently feels the need to justify the switch to JAM based on SRG's towniness as well as JAM's scumminess. And just what does he mean by 'mislynch' here anyway?

2. His reasons for his reads on the other players. Oh yeah. There aren't any. He goes through Yabba, Emp, IS and myself without giving a single reason for the reads other than 'gut'.

3. The terrible over-justification of why the hammer is scummy in the third paragraph. It almost reads as though he's trying to convince himself it's true. 'Guessing at the amount of scum there are of course' is such an unnecessary inclusion for anyone who's not paranoid about looking like they actually know how many scum there are, and he seems to be self-aware of how much he's over-simplifying the situation when he says 'So it is scummy, no matter how obvious it looks'. He might as well just have written 'I'm going to go for the easy mislynch to avoid doing any proper analysis'. It would have saved a lot of words.

4. The way he tries to make it sound like he'd have been happy to lynch JAM for some time. Know how many times he's indicated any doubts over JAM's slot up to this point? I can quote them. It won't take long.

I do find it suspicious that JAM keeps calling out IS yet makes no move to vote for him.

Yep, that's it. So I can see how he might be able to justify 'hazy', given Sky's lack of strong read, but 'definitely not town' is a stretch, and unquestioningly treating him as the obvious lynch is nonsensical.

All in all, it's forced, over-justified and reeks of struggling to fabricate reads on players.

Vote: Sky

Discuss.

[Locke Lamora]

Corresponding to Locke's case against me:

1. True. I hadn't been paying much attention to the SRG wagon. It didn't interest me, its ideas were flawed.
2. You want reasons for those players? Well for you, I think you're leaning town because you are original. You joined the SRG wagon, sure, but I believe you had different reasons than just quickly hopping onto it as scum. You also have pulled me up-- despite it being me--and that's original too. IS I have come to realize is more leaning town. I wasn't sure yesterday, but towards the end he did have the balls to hammer and it seems that his actions have got the town in mind. He also suspected JAM earlier. yabbaguy is town, despite my gut but I know that doesn't mean shit. He constantly contributes fresh thought, much like you, only does it more often, which is even better. I explained my logic for Emp being scum and it was off. I felt he was just actively lurking and coasting through this entire game. I was wrong.
3. I'm a stream of conscious guy. It's the way I write. I can tell you're into the whole brevity thing man, that's cool. I know I got pretty short towards the end of yesterday but that's because I was dead set on JAM being scum for hammer. Furthermore, (and I know this is just the way my brain is, its a poor excuse, you can believe it or not) I suck at math and yabbaguy explained it hell of a lot better than I did. You know, with those numbers and what not. Damn yabbaguy, you are a math wizard!
4. I don't know where I implied that. I do not agree.

Rikana, may you please explain that quote and its relevance right now?

1. What you actually said prior to making that statement on SRG was:

I'm trying to make sense of this slot thing, and I need to review SRG because I haven't spent much time there. One more question for Rikana, why were you so intent on carrying out the "legacy" of Bristep after you found him suspicious yesterday?

So you obviously didn't even know what the reasons for the SRG wagon were. How could you find them flawed?

2. No, I don't want reasons for the players based on what you've seen since. In that post you stated 4 reads and no reasons. You said your town read on me was 'just a feel', so if you actually thought I was town based on originality, why not say that? Your IS and Yabba reads have changed since that post anyway, so providing reasoning for them now is irrelevant, and Emp's the only one who you actually had anything solid on at all. I think in both this response and the previous one, you're making up reasons that were simply not true at the time you made that post.

3. I understand what you're saying in that paragraph. It's got nothing to do with brevity (and I'm really not that brief a poster relative to the likes of IS and Emp). The point is, it reads like you're talking yourself into why scum would have hammered (or attempted to hammer) in that situation, and pre-emptively finding reasons to dismiss arguments that say 'wait a minute, wouldn't it be pretty stupid for JAM-scum to hammer there?'. My sense is you're aware it's an easy vote based on a careless piece of play, and you're trying too hard to justify it as scum play.

4. You framed the post in such a way that it was SRG vs JAM, and JAM was suddenly an obvious lynch despite the fact you'd indicated no real desire to lynch him prior to that. I think that was unrepresentative, both of the state of the game at the time and of your personal stated suspicions. If it was 24 hours to deadline and they were both at L-2, for example, that post would have made sense. You prematurely indicated that you almost had no choice but to vote for JAM, and that your reads on the two players were far more confident than you'd previously stated.

[Locke Lamora]

1. Point taken, you got me there. I just thought it was about him not having access to internet and doing other stuff in this game, so I didn't look to deep into it. I know it doesn't look to good for me to say this. But I never did actually vote him, so I think it's not that bad. But, I realize it's a shitty defense.
2. I didn't say it at first because I wasn't sure myself. I thought your post on SRG was more original, but you had, and still have, hardly posted in this game. I can say it more so now since you've got a good case, even though it's wrong. But if you believe what I said above, which you probably don't, I didn't want to say you were creative because I wasn't sure. It was a feeling based off a small post of imagination, since it was virtually your only post of yesterday.
3. What I had to do was convince myself that I was doing the right thing for the town, and sometimes the best way to do that is to write it out, so I can look back at just what I was thinking.
4. I was confused about the deadline because I'm stupid, but maybe that was after that post. Either way, yesterdays was going to be SRG or JAM. I do know that's how it was when I posted that. I went for JAM because I felt so sure of that false hammer. Would you rather have had me sit idly and not take a side while other players drift past the deadline, even you're among that list.

I'm going to look at this Swift yabba debate going on tomorrow, it's too much too wrap my head around right now.

So basically you're admitting that I'm more or less right about everything I've said, including the fact that two of your responses to my original case weren't genuine at all. As for it 'not being that bad' that you made up a reason for not being interested in the SRG case, yes, it is that bad. There's no other motivation for that other than trying to pad out your reasoning by claiming opinions you never had.

As for saying things you're not sure of, you just told me that you were actually writing that post out partly to convince yourself that you were doing the right thing, so that's just plain hypocritical. Your play indicates that you would have no problem saying 'I get a town feel from Locke because his post shows originality, but I'm not sure as the slot has contributed very little'. So I don't see the issue with saying that over what you claimed at the time was essentially a gut read, which requires no effort to justify and can easily be rescinded later.

Can I also ask why you were so sure of the false hammer? What was it that made you sure it was scum strategy and not clumsy town play?

Yabba: I see where you're coming from, but I think Swiftstrike basically just had a point that he wasn't articulating very well. Do you often see scum make a point and then immediately change the meaning of it? I think it was worded in a contradictory fashion, but I don't see anything about the way SS presented it that makes it more likely to be a scumtell.

[Locke Lamora]

Well, the claim mostly makes sense with Sky's play, apart from one thing.

Sky: why were you so quick to not believe the jailkeeper claim? Did it not occur to you that the 'no result' could have been explained by that?

[Locke Lamora]

Yabba: to be honest with you, I don't see how 'damn, dead townie' is a towntell. What would you have expected the scum play to be? Celebrate getting a mislynch on a PR in thread?

[Locke Lamora]

Oh, I see. I thought you were referring to SRG acting disappointed that we'd lynched town-JAM. Yeah, I guess that looks more townish. My issue with that is we have no real way of telling whether he knew he was lynched or not. There was a votecount on the previous page and Empking quickly clarified it wasn't L-1 when you said it was. SRG posted between then and the point that JAM 'hammered', so I'm not sure that he would have been unaware that he hadn't been lynched. I'm less inclined to put stock in things like that at the moment because I just came from a game where scum (Twistedspoon) pretended that he thought he'd hammered his buddy Farside and then asked if he'd won the game, just to buy towncred for Farside. That's far more outlandish than scum simply knowing that they hadn't been lynched and acting like they were.

[Locke Lamora]

Peregrine: mainly because I don't believe that Sky saw JAM claim that he'd jailkept this slot and didn't put two and two together. Instead he went straight to stating that he didn't buy the claim. Think about it. You're an investigative PR, and someone else claims that they are a jailkeeper. What's the first thing you think? In that situation, mine would be 'hey, that 'no result' makes perfect sense now'. At the very least you pause for a bit and wait to hear the target instead of coming firmly down on the side of not believing him. Now Sky keeps saying that he's stupid and he just didn't think about it, which feels like a pity AtE. He doesn't seem stupid to me.

Sky: are you saying that when JAM originally made the claim, your thought was that a jailkeeper would have affected your result?

Yabba: I won't bother to address your points made about smallpeoples, but to answer your other points, yes, I've not really been here since Sky's claim, so my lack of contributions has been to personal time constraints. As for my case against Sky, it's pretty typical for me to look at a lynch wagon and see who made the poorest, most forced justification of a vote. So yeah, I do like to focus on one post in that situation. I believe sometimes you can get a pretty strong sense that someone is scum from one post, and that's what I got from that post.

[Locke Lamora]

Sorry, that line to Sky should read 'would not have affected your result' at the end.

[Locke Lamora]

I think David is legit. I think the concerns are misplaced, but I think he has pro-town motivations. I also think he has a good point about Sky knowing what result he should and shouldn't receive. I'm just finding it very hard to get past the fact that Sky's reaction to JAM's claim is incompatible with the claimed result, and Sky's initial reaction to my case was filled with backpedaling and fabricated reasoning about his thought processes. I don't see any evidence that should make me reconsider that.

Peregrine's Sky vote looks like a bus, but I'm sure given Sky's initial vote on Peregrine, which seems more unnecessary if it is a bus. I find SRG's play to lack substance and he just seems to be sitting on the fence asking questions without really going anywhere. Then he shows up and complains nothing has happened, which is pretty counter-productive. So those are my top 2 other picks for scum right now.

Yabba: I think it's perfectly clear why I don't buy Sky's claim. He lied too much when I was initially questioning him about his motives, and then he gave JAM absolutely no benefit of the doubt when he had a glaringly obvious reason to do so. Have you got any evidence to make me reconsider either of those points?

P-edit: Swiftstrike: you think because there's no gunsmith counterclaim, that makes Sky town? Really?

[Locke Lamora]

Do you actually suspect David at all, Swift? As far as I can tell, you really don't.

Yabba: so are you just ignoring my points now? I've made my views on Sky very clear and you've basically repeatedly bypassed that to say 'I don't think Locke's scumhunting'. So I'll ask you again: what reason is there for me to reconsider my scumread on Sky? On one hand, there are multiple reasons to think he's scum, such as the repeated fabrication of reasoning in response to my case and the dubious response to JAM's claim. On the other...oh, it's just that he's claimed a PR. That's really it, isn't it? You've got no other reason to call Sky town.

In a situation where there was a well-reasoned counter-wagon on someone else I considered suspect, I might just be tempted to give Sky the benefit of the doubt for another night. This wagon on David is completely ridiculous, however. David obviously believes that's actually how the jailkeeper role works. If there's anyone on the Sky wagon who's hopped on in a scummy fashion, it's Peregrine, and SS doesn't even appear to think David's scum. You calling David scum appears to be entirely contingent on believing Sky's town, and as I've explained, there's only one reason to do that, against several pretty good reasons to think Sky's scum. So please, explain to me where I'm going wrong here, because I don't see it.

[Locke Lamora]

And Peregrine?

[Locke Lamora]

So basically because there's more content from Peregrine you think he's townier? I'm not seeing a whole lot of analysis here.

I'm not lynching David unless there's absolutely no other choice. I would much rather lynch Peregrine if we're not lynching Sky.

[Locke Lamora]

I was asking to see if you had thought about it prior to making the vote or if it was simply a 'I don't want to lynch Sky' vote. Seems it was more of the latter. Hopefully we will be ok for another day with the NL.

[Locke Lamora]

I still think David's objections to Sky's claim looked legit. It doesn't look like scum trying to hop casually onto the lynch. He really stuck his neck out and explained why he thought it was a fake claim. If he wanted to sheep easily onto the lynch, he could just have followed my case. He was completely wrong about the role, of course, but that's not the point. I think Peregrine's vote was the scummier one on the wagon, and I'll probably be voting him, but I want to do a re-read first.

[Locke Lamora]

It really read as genuine to me, IS. Just seems like an overly risky move for scum to make when there were plenty of perfectly good reasons to lynch Sky anyway. Maybe David is scum and was just trying to force the lynch through, but if there are 3 scum it wouldn't have won them the game anyway and it quite obviously makes him a target, so I don't see the point.

[Locke Lamora]

Ugh. I had a horrible feeling that SRG reaction was fake but it's just so hard to pin down when someone does that. Sorry for the lack of activity on my part; I almost certainly would have voted for Peregrine on the last day but with IS tunnelling David, I'm not sure it would have made a difference. I'm willing to bet the scum QT contains something along the lines of 'let's kill Sky and let IS tunnel David for the win'.

Well played scum, I think you took good advantage of town's lack of direction well. Thanks for modding and the invite too, Snake, nice job.