Mini 1266 - My iTunes Mafia - GAME OVER

[Painted Face of Death]

Confirming! And I'm very excited to finally be in a game with the notorious IS...

Vote: IS

of course.

[Painted Face of Death]

Vote: FightingShadow

since he hasn't posted or shown up and isn't here to defend himself. *Evil laugh*

Skenvoy, those underlined things are just links to songs on YouTube, to go with the theme. Pacman had said the game wouldn't start till 8pm.

[Painted Face of Death]

Could you elaborate on that, please? It isn't that helpful to just say you think someone is scum without saying why.

[Painted Face of Death]

... and apparently Slandaar's not a fan of people providing reasons. Or asking for reasons. Or posting reasons for his own votes, for that matter.

FoS: Slandaar. That was a strange-looking post.

[Painted Face of Death]

Vote: DeasVail

Three reasons:
a) not providing reasons at first, then saying "because I knew someone would prompt me." Why not just provide them up front instead of fishing for questions with a useless post?
b) the reasons he did provide don't make much sense. They're super meta and consist of reading way too much into a comment that the theme seems cool. Skenvoy didn't say anything about defending her "choice to stay in the game" and there's no need to defend such a choice anyway.
c) finally, post 30 doesn't make much sense either. I don't really even want to get into this because it's so meta and besides the point, but DV's theory doesn't work even on its own terms. Skenvoy signed up for the game -- presumably because she was interested -- and then asked if she could get out, which DV finds weirdly suspicious. Yet in post 30 DV seems to think, or try to sneakily imply, that staying in requires some sort of explanation and that Skenvoy's explanation wasn't relevant.

[Painted Face of Death]

DV, I agree we all only have slight suspicions for our votes at this early stage. I'm not sure why it's only "overreacting" and "nitpicking" when I vote based on a slight suspicion, though. Using that same logic, wouldn't both of your votes be "overreacting" and "nitpicking" as well?

[Painted Face of Death]

DV, let's recap here. I'll use roman numerals this time, since you don't seem to like letters.

i) First, you vote for Skenvoy, providing reasons when asked. There's nothing wrong with this in itself: it's just that your reasoning is poor.
ii) Next, I vote for you, explaining my reasons. Note that my reasons did not include you being suspicious of a player and voting. That's not what I suspect you for: I suspect you for the reasons I listed.
iii) Finally, you switch your vote to me, apparently for providing reasons ("trying to make my vote seem justified"). You backpedal on i), saying it was just a useless RVS post, but RVS ends when people actually get suspicious and start having reasons for their votes. You say I'm nitpicking by voting for you based on my early suspicion, when at the same time, you vote for me based on yours.

There's nothing wrong with either of us voting based on our suspicions -- this game is all about analysis -- it's just a matter of whether the reasoning is solid. Yours isn't. There's nothing odd about Skenvoy thinking she'd be ineligible for a newbie game if she joined this one and asking if she could leave, then staying in once she realized she was ineligible anyway, the game had already started, and the theme was kickass. The way you and Slandaar tried to start something on Skenvoy for poor reasons, then backpedal once you're called on it, is pretty suspicious.

[Painted Face of Death]

Slandaar, obviously I didn't think you were suspicious enough for a vote. Are you complaining? I thought I'd FOS you and see what happened. And DV's post 30 happened, which, in combination with the other reasons I listed, led me to vote for him.

I have no read at all on Skenvoy, but when players jump to the attack based on obviously faulty reasoning, and continue to respond in scummy looking ways, I tend to think they're scum.

[Painted Face of Death]

I already did, at length. See posts 31 and 45.

[Painted Face of Death]

I can't decide if Don Johnson's post was more scummy or VI. What do you guys think? A lot of spreading confusion and misinformation there:

not posting a reason until you are asked is a very townie thing to do. it helps you guage reactions. thats kinda mafiascum 101 imo.

I have to disagree with this as a matter of strategy. It smells scummy to me, though I don't really think that by itself is a major tell. I'm not familiar with people doing that.

i guess to me, slan's post was self explanatory. so painted's "wtf was that?" post reads like chainsaw defense.

So to me, it wasn't self-explanatory, though I see your point. If you're used to that kind of play then it's not that remarkable.

I can't tell if you're genuinely not understanding the idea of the chainsaw defense, or if you're deliberately muddying the waters. Chainsaw defense is when you argue that someone is innocent by attacking their attacker. It's different from noticing that an attacker is scummy. I have no idea if Sken is innocent or scum, one way or the other: to me, what's far more interesting and important is the bullshit arguments for Sken's guilt which make DV look scummy.

"fishing" is a large part of scumhunting. and is useful. the "useless post" actually generated reactions, discussions, and so "useless" does not really apply.

This is actually a valid point. It didn't turn out to be useless. By itself, not giving reasons is no big deal, but in combination with the other things DV looked scummy.

sken signed up. wanted out. pms were distributed. sken wanted in. is there something wrong with the timeline here? cause it makes perfect sense to me. dumb reason for a vote, but a reason nonetheless. deas is not the one making a big deal out of it.

That was my entire point. Dumb reason for a vote, and it's all we had to go on at the time, so I voted DV. It may have just been DV not understanding the situation with Sken. But looking at what's happened since then, I'm suspecting DV.

also, paint seems to be referring to sken as "she". maybe i missed the gender tag

Seriously? It's under Sken's avatar, just like all the other gender tags. I don't think you missed it, I think you're trying to stir up trouble. This is pretty shady right there.

You seem to be having trouble following post 45. Basically, DV seemed to think that there was something wrong with giving reasons for why I thought someone was scum based on an early suspicion. My entire point was, as you say:

this is not an equation imo. painted provided bullshit reasons. deas provided good ones. this an "apples to oranges" type of lgic here.

except that my reasons were good and DV's were bullshit.

I said DV's reasons were bullshit, DV said "you gave reasons too!" and I explained that the problem was not with giving reasons, but that his reasons were bullshit.

i didn't see any backpedaling.

The backpedaling is a big part of why I suspect DV. His first vote was pretty clear that he thought Sken was guilty, but later he tried to pass it of as just part of the random voting phase.

[Painted Face of Death]

Slandaar: Sure, we should carefully look at Skenvoy's posts and determine whether or not she is scum. If you go back to the queue thread you'll see that after the game was declared, Skenvoy asked if it was too late to get out of the game. http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 2#p3558012

Papa Zito said that it was, and she'd have to ask the mod and get a replacement. http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 7#p3560187

Now, when you sign up for a game, once the game has been declared, you're making a commitment to stay in the game. It's ok to /out before the game is declared, but afterwards, you're inconveniencing everyone else and should only leave the game if you have to. So, the way I see it, Skenvoy was asking if it was too late to get out. It was, so she should only have left if there was some really good reason she couldn't stick with your commitment. So, she stayed in. When asked, she clearly explained that the only reason she wanted to be out was that this game would have put her over the newbie limit. But then another game put her over the limit anyway, so there was no reason to be out.

Can someone verify the number of games she's been in and whether she's right about the newbie limit?

This would help settle the situation.

I don't agree at all that DV's reasoning was well thought out. I mean, theoretically it could have been true that she really really wanted to be out of this game, then saw that she got a scum role, got excited, and decided to stay in, sure. It seems unlikely to me. I don't see any reason why this would be true. While it's theoretically possible, there's no evidence that it's the case. Proposing the possibility was no big deal. But then after Skenvoy explained what had happened, DV in posts 30 and 35 muddied the waters by saying that Skenvoy's explanation wasn't satisfactory, for a reason that made no sense at all. This reason was supposedly that Skenvoy explained why she wanted to be out, but not why she decided to stay in. But staying in doesn't need an explanation: she was already in, asked if she could easily leave, was told she couldn't, and then found out that the reason she wanted to leave no longer applied. In addition, DV cast an OMGUS vote for me in direct response, further confirming my suspicions of him.

I hope that answers your question. Would you answer a question or two for me? Why do you think Don's post was a "great summary" given the numerous inaccuracies and mischaracterizations I pointed out? And why did you attempt to misleadingly portray me as defending Skenvoy, when I instead attacked DV for faulty reasoning when he attacked Skenvoy? This really has nothing to do with Skenvoy's guilt or innocence. Even if Skenvoy is guilty -- and I have no clue one way or the other -- the way DV acted is scummy for all the reasons I've explained.

Noramp: that is very strange logic. I am also "attempting to get the ball rolling" and also starting discussion on something I believe could at least be possible. It seems likely to me that DV is scum, and you'd agree it is at least possible that DV made an issue out of the Skenvoy incident as a scum tactic, right?

[Painted Face of Death]

[J]: What doesn't "sit well" with my response? As far as my wagon, I got no idea about you or Noramp. I don't really understand the reasoning behind my wagon. I'm also still waiting for my objections to DJ's analysis to be addressed.

DV: If I understand correctly, an OMGUS vote is a vote for someone who just voted for you? See post 45 for what was wrong with it.
I think it's likely that you're scum, but I'm hoping people will agree that it's at least possible. I said that in response to Noramp's post.
Why do you think an explanation for Sken staying in is required? She had signed up and the game had started. Unless she has a good reason for leaving, she'd stay in by default.

[Painted Face of Death]

Seriously? It's under Sken's avatar, just like all the other gender tags. I don't think you missed it, I think you're trying to stir up trouble. This is pretty shady right there.

This is the part that was unsettling to me because it is a really bad point to try and make someone scummy for not recognizing gender of a player. You accuse him of doing it on purpose to make you look worse.

No. It's not that he didn't recognize the gender of a player. It's that he accused me because I recognized the gender of a player

which was clearly visible on every one of her posts.

Within the rest of the post, you don't really fend off DJ but more or less qualify what he has brought up against you which is why I don't like it. It's not really a solid defense.

Are you kidding? I explained clearly in great detail why almost everything he said was completely wrong or a non sequitur. The one thing I qualified was that DV's "fishing" post ended up being useful. If you're still confused please ask more specifically.

As far as the reasoning against me, there hasn't been much given, and what has been given is based on false premises or misunderstandings (not understanding what happened with Sken; not understanding how the chainsaw defense works; thinking there's something fishy about me actively trying to fish out scum by asking for reasons; and so forth)

Guttersnipe, fishing in general can sometimes be a useful tactic. But the way DV did it was very odd and seemed scummy. Specifically, during the random phase he voted for someone and said he had reasons, but didn't say anything else. It seemed very odd, as if he wanted to be able to hide behind the "random" excuse. More useful tactics would either be to fish by giving some reasons, and explaining more fully when asked, or to fish later in the game, or to sniff out scum by looking for faulty reasoning and senseless accusations, which is what I'm trying to do. Right now I have leads on DV and DJ (for post 61; I guess I should put FOS: DJ), and I'm not really sure about anyone else. Possibly also Slandaar, for repeatedly trying to falsely portray me as defending Sken, which was very odd.

[Painted Face of Death]

I did not understand why painted couldn't consider the theory, its weak and completely depends on what role she prefers playing and even then it might not even be relevant it might just be she could play for whatever reason, but the reasoning behind its pretty good I mean she could have replaced out if she wanted, so shes seen her role and decided to stay in, ok, thats cool, but there is a slight chance the role helped to make her decision. it completely looked like scum jumping to buddys aid, there was no reason to come out guns blazing against that reasoning.

Still, painteds defence posts are not good, for example he says Deas made an issue out of it which is completely exaggerating to say the least.

He did, in fact, make an issue out of it. He voted for her based on it. He didn't make a major issue, but it was an issue. I think saying I came out "guns blazing" against the faulty reasoning is an exaggeration. I pointed out the problems with it and watched the follow-up (which pointed to DV being scum).

And he also says the theory is possible, completely nullifying the view that the theory is complete bs but still says Deas is scummy for presenting it. Even if there is a 0.5% chance the theory has any merit its better to make the vote with the reason as it does increase the odds someone is scum over a random vote. This is how I view it, so to say Deas's reasoning is scummy seems a bit ridiculous.

Logic fail.
If there's a 0.5% chance she stayed in because she was scum, and also a 0.5% chance she stayed in because she was the cop or the doc, it does not increase the odds she's scum at all. Sure, both are possible. But we don't know which is more likely.

And keep in mind that by this logic, each of us "chose to stay in" the game. We all could have looked for a replacement. So we have the same information about every player based on the fact that we all chose to stay in. Granted she did express minor interest in leaving the game, but only under certain circumstances that didn't apply anymore (the game had started and the newbie limit no longer mattered).

[Painted Face of Death]

Slandaar: yes, I guess I can see that interpretation. But you have to realize that there were several poorly reasoned attacks and a lot of suspicious behavior relating to Sken. There was your odd post where you quoted a reasonable question of hers and voted her without explanation, which I FOSed. And there were DV's posts making the "staying in" argument.

So anything that anyone does at that point to challenge the poor reasoning could be interpreted as "buddying" Sken. I was online at the time, and as Town it's my job to fish out scum and look at poor reasoning. So I pointed it out.

This seems like a strategy scum might use: make poorly reasoned attacks on someone randomly, and then start a wagon on whoever calls you on the attacks, arguing they were "defending" the first person. If I hadn't criticized the logic fail then, someone else would have and then that person would be getting accused of "defending" Sken.

On a side note, I've made 14 posts, you've made 19, and most players haven't even made 4 yet. Seems like a good strategy for scum right now would just be to sit back and let the town fight it out.

[Painted Face of Death]

Nah, my main reason for wanting to out for the game was because I was still in the queue for a newbie, and had just replaced into another game - I figured that if I was in for this game as well, I wouldn't be able to play the newbie. I replaced into another game just before this game started, so the point is void.

For what it's worth, even though Sken got the rules wrong, this reasoning is confirmed by Sken's post before anything happened in this game: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 1#p3557691

(The actual rules: If you haven't completed a game on this site, like Skenvoy, a Newbie game has to be the ONLY game you're playing. If you've

completed

more than two games, you can still play a newbie game as a Semi-Experienced player: there are two SEs per Newbie game, more/less if needed. See http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... =4&t=16824 )

In any case, since Sken hasn't yet completed a game on this site and is relatively new, I'm willing to accept all this entry/leaving stuff as just trying to figure out the rules.

----

On a separate note, apparently DV and Sken know each other in person or something?

It is only very slight, but I know that Skenvoy expressed interesting in outing this game before role pms went out and I know that she hasn't been scum much recently, so I think that a scum role pm may have encouraged her to stay in.

Skenvoy doesn't like being power roles by the way. At least that's what she's told me. I also know that she has wanted to be in a game as scum, since she has been town a lot recently.

At the moment, I have a town read on Deasveil, cause he's playing completely differently to the way he's played a scum.

You forgot to mention that I like playing vanilla just as much as I like playing mafia - you're right about the power roles.

You guys want to comment on this relationship, seeing as all these games must have been offsite? Are you generalizing from in-person games? That can be a risky business because people can come off very different in writing. I'm kind of suspicious of this argument from private communications.

PFOD, STOP FREAKING DEFENDING ME. I CAN DO IT MYSELF.

At the moment, I have a town read on Deasveil, cause he's playing completely differently to the way he's played a scum. Slandaar's sticking out a lot, and I think scum would play more cautiously at this stage of the game.

Skenvoy, why do you have such a problem with PFoD defending you?

Your town read on me doesn't seem quite right. Why do you feel the need to express your town read on me (twice) and justify it using meta (twice)?

It's probably worth pointing out that I've never defended Skenvoy as innocent, though I have pointed out that one particular thing (asking if she could leave) does not strike me as relevant one way or the other. The whole "stop defending me" comes off as slightly scummy to me, actually. It's very defensive, heh. I agree with DV that the town read doesn't seem quite right, and I don't like that Skenvoy's going out of her way to misrepresent me as defending her.

I'm leaning towards Skenvoy as scum now. I still suspect DV and I'm going to wait and see what responses I get before changing my vote. And still nothing from DJ after his one long scummy post.

Question: after I attacked DV early on, several people jumped on me. Were they "defending" DV? Was that suspicious?

[Painted Face of Death]

You can actually see Painted coming to Skenvoys aid like 3 times subtly, there looks like a link there

(Post 34)

@Painted Why did you not address this relatively serious accusation when it first arose but are now defending it tooth and nail?

I've addressed it over and over again, by saying that I thought the way DV went after Sken seemed scummy (for reasons I've explained). Even if they are both scum, the way DV posted seemed scummy. So I wasn't defending Sken, I was saying that either way DV's attack was illogical and that I suspected DV.

I'm putting my vote on Painted because I'm sick of him defending me when I've asked him to stop. Added to that, the fact that he's saying he didn't.

Just curious why this bothers you so much and why you're reacting so defensively to it. DV attacked you and I suspected DV; this isn't really about you. Unless you and DV are both scum and you don't want me going after him?

*Point to those saying they don't like defending people*

I will defend people I believe are town and not push their lynch and the like because town does work as a collective team to find scum. Also based on interactions with other players, even defending, you can find scum through that. Plus idk, I just have just as much fun defending as I do prosecuting those I believe are scum. *shrug* I don't see a problem with it in my year of playing mafia.

Agree completely. I don't have a problem defending someone I think is town. But if I don't think someone is town, it's annoying to be told I'm "defending" them when I'm instead attacking someone else.

By trying to find flaws in my logic for why I have a

town

read on you makes me love you as town.

This is a bit WIFOMy of course, but that actually reads as a scum indicator to me. It's a transparent attempt to seem fair and reasonable.. trying a little too hard to seem town.

I was rereading, and this stood out to me:

sken signed up. wanted out. pms were distributed. sken wanted in. is there something wrong with the timeline here? cause it makes perfect sense to me. dumb reason for a vote, but a reason nonetheless. deas is not the one making a big deal out of it. in fact, his vote post was rather subdued. the reaction to it is what has been overblown. i don't see deas "sneakily" implying anything. i think his posting is up front.

also, paint seems to be referring to sken as "she". maybe i missed the gender tag, but paint certainly seems familiar with the maiden he's whiteknighting atm.

I actually think painted replied to this a while back, but I didn't go back and check it at the time. What is interesting to me is that Deasveil has been referring to me by the correct gender as well (and knows me a hell of a lot better than painted, which I think is obvious from our posts), but DJ didn't (and hasn't) mentioned it at all. Seems a bit of a double standard to me.

Yup. This was an incredibly scummy thing to say because of the "maiden" and "whiteknighting" rhetoric, and because your gender tag is clearly visible, not to mention the point about DV.

I have a lot more to say about DJ in my next post, coming right up...

[Painted Face of Death]

Just to remove the suspense...

Unvote

Vote: don_johnson

I had already thought that other long post of his was scummy, and his most recent one is even more so. So currently, I think he's the most likely to be scum. More detail below. But first, let me address a couple things.

To clarify, the reason I'm wary is because I'm confident in my town read(s) at the moment, and I think the people who would get the reads right most often would be scum (obviously, as they actually know who town are). Therefore, I'm uncertain about anyone who's town reads coincide with mine a lot.

I dont think a townie can think this.

now, this actually makes no sense you are confident your reads are correct but think scum get reads right most often? UNLESS you take into account sken knows her reads are correct. (she is scum)

->

My reads are correct
'I am confident my reads are correct', 'I think scum get reads right most often', 'I am uncertain when peoples reads agree with mine'

makes more sense than:

I am a townie who has genuine reads.
'I am confident my reads are correct', 'I think scum get reads right most often', 'I am uncertain when peoples reads agree with mine'... like this literally makes no sense to me.

No, it makes sense, it's just a little arrogant. If you think that your reading ability is way better than the other townies, you should logically suspect anyone who agrees with you too much. If you think that it's possible that other townies are just as good at detecting scum as you are, then there's no reason to suspect someone who has the same reads as you: they could have gotten them the same way you did.

I think that all painted/sken combinations are quite possible.
I actually feel that Painted is most likely to be scum at the moment because of lots of things, including how weird his attack of me was, which I still don't understand. I just struggle to believe that he actually thinks anything he says.

I do, of course. I'm trying to figure out who the Mafia are. You might not agree with me or understand my arguments, but why would you think I don't actually believe what I say? This is somewhat of an underhanded attack on me. I'm happy to clear up anything specific that confuses you, though I'm not going to repeat the whole argument because I've spelled it out already. Go ahead and ask specific questions if you'd like.

I actually feel that Painted is most likely to be scum at the moment because of lots of things, including how weird his attack of me was, which I still don't understand. I just struggle to believe that he actually thinks anything he says.

I actually can see his attack on you as town after his explanation, but I find his other defences terrible. the thing is; terrible doesn't nescessarily mean scum and it is close if its terrible town logic or scum logic imo. I am leaning scum.

I think my logic is pretty good. If you have a specific objection please let me know and I'll clear up whatever logic or ambiguities are confusing you.

---

Now, I'm going to go through DJ's most recent post and respond. As well as my response, I've also explained why I think he's scummy based on what he wrote.

No. It's not that he didn't recognize the gender of a player. It's that he accused me because I recognized the gender of a player which was clearly visible on every one of her posts.

meh. this was a very small part of what i posted and was something i included as a side note. to me it just added to the sken/painted connection. i never focused on this as a daming point, it is just a small piece of a larger puzzle i felt existed at the time(and as yet, still do). may be some people pay attention more to gender than i do, and not to be sexist, but i find males in the majority of my gamnes and so will often default to he/his/him until it is pointed out to me that i am talking with a woman. but whatevz. arguying the weakest point of a case against you is borderline strawman. its really unecessary unless it makes you uncomfrotable. so why would it make you uncomfortable enough to focus on it? i could understand if the case was based on such a minor detail, but ignoring the crux of the argument(your explicit defense of a player) and focusing on a minor detail is lame.

Response: I certainly didn't ignore the rest of the argument, but I did address this point because it pretty strongly pointed to DJ being Mafia. As I already explained, use of the rhetoric and underhanded accusations about me being familiar with the "maiden" I'm "whiteknighting" is really scummy. Especially when a) Sken's gender tag was clearly visible and b) DJ still hasn't acknowledged point a and admitted that there was nothing suspicious about my use of "her."

Why this is scummy: DJ is portraying me as only focusing on a minor detail, ignoring the rest of my argument. DJ is also acting as if my comments on this point were intended to argue against his case against me, rather than to point out why he's scummy.

Are you kidding? I explained clearly in great detail why almost everything he said was completely wrong or a non sequitur. The one thing I qualified was that DV's "fishing" post ended up being useful. If you're still confused please ask more specifically.

i would rather not pbpa the original post in question as i feel it would be wasteful. if someone needs me to, just say it. otherwise i will just point out that this is complete bs. you showed nothing in that post. as i recall, you said i was "scummy or vi" and then proceeded to summarize my actions and agree with some things and never really point out any sort of scum motivation for my other actions. but whatevz.

Response: I don't know what PBPA means. Assuming it means go over the post again, I doubt it will change my opinion at this point. I'd rather you look back at my early original posts and try to understand them. Half of your post was saying you didn't understand various points. And you or others may disagree with some of the arguments in my response, but I certainly did a lot more than just summarize and agree. I've now decided you're much more likely to be scum than VI.

Why this is scummy: Mischaracterizing my response as if it was in general agreeing with DJ, and completely ignoring/discounting the arguments I made in response to DJ's post rather than actually addressing them. Also, the 'whatevz' is pretty hostile and annoying, not that only scum do that, but at this point it just appears that DJ is trying to irritate, confuse, mischaracterize, and stir up trouble, rather than actually help the town find scum.

As far as the reasoning against me, there hasn't been much given, and what has been given is based on false premises or misunderstandings (not understanding what happened with Sken; not understanding how the chainsaw defense works; thinking there's something fishy about me actively trying to fish out scum by asking for reasons; and so forth)

i understand what happened with sken. they reacted poorly to a pressure vote, when the wagon grew, you jumped in to defend them. you did this by attacking sken's attackers(which is the definition of chainsaw defense), not sure what you mean about the "fishing for reasons" part, but i'm pretty sure you called someone scummy for "fishing", and then did it yourself.

Response: Whew, there's a lot here. I've already addressed the confusion about the chainsaw defense: there's a big difference between attacking an attacker cause he seems like scum, and attacking an attacker as a way of defending someone else. To explain my point about reasons, this was a reference to an early post where I asked Slandaar to explain a post where he just quoted Sken and then voted. I thought it was suspicious not to provide an explanation and I asked him to do so. Granted fishing for a response can sometimes be a useful tactic, but in that particular instance I thought the way Slandaar did it was strange. I'm not sure what DJ means about me doing it myself: an example would be helpful.

Why this is scummy: Mischaracterizing the chainsaw defense, repeating the same old confusion, ignoring my responses, and a vague accusation of me being hypocritical, inaccurately portraying me as saying any and all fishing was scummy.

83 is more "i really don't get it" from painted. this kind of ignorasnce, again looks tough to feign. i will reiterate, painted is more likely scum if sken flips scum. as a stand alone case, painted reads more like VI. the logic fails are incredible and painted seems to enjoy trying to compare apples to oranges and then trying to convince us that they are all apples.

84 is painted showing a lack of understanding again. they seem convinced that the original sken vote by deas was poor, which again, has not been the case at all. also, painted talks about:

This seems like a strategy scum might use: make poorly reasoned attacks on someone randomly, and then start a wagon on whoever calls you on the attacks, arguing they were "defending" the first person.

i don't think anyone has attacked painted, have they? the focus has been on sken, with a strong "buddying" suggestion between sken and painted for the protracted defense. another apples to oranges type of moment. painted finished this post with the old "well what about the lurkers" type comment. common scum tactic. i don't like it when people try and call out inactivity early in a game. its kind of like "well, i know i'm suspicious, but what about all those people." it always looks like an attempt to get the heat off of yourself.

Response: Once again, a lot here. We have a vague unexplained comment on my alleged logic fails and allegedly false analogies, without pointing any out. I'll be happy to explain whatever logic or analogies are confusing people, and I do admit to my mistakes, but in general I think my reasoning's been pretty tight.

We have a disagreement over DV's original Sken vote. I've explained why I don't think this vote makes sense, but all in all it was partly meant to get things going, which it certainly did. And it is true that Sken has gotten a lot of the focus, though I have been attacked (by which I mean voted for and suspected) a few times.

Finally, the lurkers bit. I don't think I'm suspicious. I did think it was funny that early on, four of us were posting often, trying to figure out which of the four of us were scum, when we could well have all been town while the scum sat back and watched the fireworks. And yes, of course I wanted the "heat" off: I'm town, and I'd rather the town look at people who might be scum. As a townie I don't particularly want a wagon and don't want to be lynched.

Why this is scummy: This part isn't as bad as the rest, but DJ misportrays me as saying I'm the only one who has been attacked, and tries to make it seem like I think I'm suspicious, and like that there is something wrong with trying to a) get votes off me and b) look for scum where they might be hiding.

86: thank you monk. if sken flips town this is the most likely to be a scum vote. certainly doesn't look like a bus, so this gives me a good take on monk dependent on sken's flip. it does look like sken has been slipping under the radar and letting her white knight take the heat.

Why this is scummy: If this is intended as a reference to me, it's again a sly rhetorical way of making me look bad. Note also the contradiction between this, and the previous paragraph where the focus was on Sken. But here, Sken is slipping under the radar and I'm taking the heat, mixed-metaphorically speaking.

While this is possible, you forget to point out in your theory that she could have received another active role, on town's side, and wanting to stay in because of it? It seems you are only focusing on her possible scum role.

hm. don't like this. why would focus on outing a town role? its called "scumhunting". not "townhunting". but whatevz.

Response: Fennin has already addressed this. This has nothing to do with outing a town role; the point is that an active town role may have made her want to stay in just as much as a scum role would. This was also pointed out earlier as well. But this is another example of DJ mischaracterizing something that someone said to make them look bad.

Why this is scummy: Completely twisting Fennin's point around to make it look like he wants to out a town role.

I actually think painted replied to this a while back, but I didn't go back and check it at the time. What is interesting to me is that Deasveil has been referring to me by the correct gender as well (and knows me a hell of a lot better than painted, which I think is obvious from our posts), but DJ didn't (and hasn't) mentioned it at all. Seems a bit of a double standard to me.

yes. let's go back and focus on a minor detail included in the original post. guess what? you deas weren't acting like scumbuddies at the time. you and painted were practically holding hands. the "gender" connection was a small detail which bolstered a larger, more obvious connection based on gameplay. double standard occurs when static laws are applied to similar circumstances. the relationships between the three of you were different.

The logic here is actually sound: it technically isn't a double standard when it's applied to different relationships. This is what makes me think DJ isn't a village idiot: he's perfectly capable of understanding logic when he wants. The problem is of course that the "gender" thing was public and didn't bolster anything, as discussed earlier.

slandaar 155. following my train of thought. again. if you are scum, you are a mastermind.

haha. slandaar 163. this is getting creepy. get out of my head!

Dons town.

Pretty much all I have to say about that post.

This makes me think Slandaar is town: it's a little WIFOMy but I'm doubting two scum would stick that close in Day 1 like this. Since DJ's probably scum, Slandaar is probably town.

Anyway, that's my case for DJ being scum. If you have specific questions please feel free to ask: insulting rhetoric isn't really helping the town find scum. If I made a mistake, or you disagree, let me know.

[Painted Face of Death]

Some things:

Or is it also that scum would be nervous of putting themselves out on a limb and would therefore wish to gauge reactions before committing to a solid vote?

Ha, regarding that last one, what do you think of this?

"I still suspect DV and I'm going to wait and see what responses I get before changing my vote."

I find it telling that Skenvoy did not respond to this question. She could have missed it. It could be that she wishes to avoid analysing Painted's posts for scummy behavior, because he is her scumbuddy, as others have hypothesised.

No, that was something I missed. That thing said by Painted was awful, cause mentioning that you're doing a scummy thing doesn't make it less scummy.

What was the scummy thing, or the "thing said that was awful," to use your tortured syntax? In the quoted post, I asked you and DV some things, FOSed you, and said that for now, I was keeping my vote on DV, at least until I heard back.

I meant painted postS. I paused for a while, because his post on DJ was good, but DJ replied with an equally good post. I went back and read, and realised that I'd erased an entire game because of one post, which was stupid. However, my reason for voting him is a bit simpler than that.

Basically: I know I'm town, and I can't possibly see a town motivation for defending me like that.

My actual motivation for the posts you keep calling "defending you" was thinking DV's attacks were scum. Another possible motivation would have been thinking you were town, though in fact earlier I was neutral towards you and I'm currently leaning towards scum.

I'm still waiting for an answer to my earlier questions about why you asked me so strongly to "stop defending you," also.

[Painted Face of Death]

I've done my read through. Before I share my impressions, I have a few questions.

(1) Painted Face of Death - Why so serious in #29?

29 was a response to Slandaar's first post, 28, which was just to quote Sken asking what I thought was a reasonable question and then vote her. I thought that was odd so I took it seriously enough to FOS but not seriously enough to vote. The quoting made it look like Slandaar thought Sken's question was super scummy and I was kinda baffled by that. (IIRC Slan's since explained that he thought Sken asking DV why he didn't post his reasons was a dumb question since it was an obvious fishing tactic by DV; my own philosophy is that posting some sort of reason or explanation is important even if you're fishing.)

[Painted Face of Death]

Painted why are you dodging my question?

I answered it in post 190, the answer being that I've explained over and over that the only "defense" of Sken I was doing was attacking DV for being scummy.

[Painted Face of Death]

I was interested what you thought due to meta, but whatever, I think you are scum who knew this and was just trying to avoid giving the read, you should know i ask questions like this, so your suspicion is unfounded, which again takes me to the same conclusion, along with your offcharacter intro i find you highly suspicious in your 4/5 posts.

I'd agree with this assessment of DW based on his last few posts, which seem geared towards evading questions, turning them back on people, and trying to put people on the defensive. He has that sly detached sort of tone, which he shares with DJ. Compare that with Guttersnipe's angry rants, particularly the lengthy one directed at me: obviously this kind of tone argument can be gamed because it's WIFOM but I think DW is scum and Gutter is town.

[Painted Face of Death]

Slandaar's post here in relation to Deasveil is actually fairly similar to Painted's first post in relation to me - he's questioning an attack on someone else before that person has a chance to address it themselves.

Part of this is just a playstyle thing, and part depends on the attack. Let's say A does something and B then attacks A. If you're interested in A, sure, wait for A to respond. If you think A is irrelevant but B's attack made you wonder, well, maybe it makes sense to press or question B. It all depends on who you suspect and whether you think the attack was justified.

In my case, I didn't really think anything of your post, but DV's attack made me wonder, so I didn't see the point in waiting for you to respond. I was interested in DV's response, not yours.

Okay, something I've just realised. It's almost impossible for me to read Painted clearly - I'm too intertwined in his scumminess/not scumminess. I mean, I just can't get a read on him

without my emotions interfering.

If someone really wants me to post a case on him, I will, but it'll be completely biased.

I really don't understand why you have such a strong emotional reaction to some of my posts. Where is that coming from? I've asked you about this before and still haven't gotten an answer...

[Painted Face of Death]

post 197 painted i responded to your answer

I responded to Slan right away; see posts 46 and 47.

Ohh, the post above yours? You obviously didn't notice, I said "Scum is top".

Oh, i thought those were your scum reads from scummiest to less scummy. My bad.

How else could that be interpreted? What did that list mean if not scum reads in order of scumminess?

[Painted Face of Death]

PEdit again: That point is since null (see above). The emotions came mostly from the fact that I was being properly attacked for the first time in a game of mafia, and (from where I'm standing) a lot of it was due to you.

The whole "STOP DEFENDING ME PAINTED" thing was because you were freaking out about being attacked and blaming me for it? So did you want to get me against you so everyone else would get off your case? I'm not really understanding...

[Painted Face of Death]

Sken, as long as you're voting by request, would you mind voting for DJ? DJ is at the top of your scum list, so I find it odd that you're voting for someone who DJ tells you to vote for, rather than voting for DJ.

[Painted Face of Death]

I see what you did there.

[Painted Face of Death]

Mod:

Would it be possible to get more frequent vote counts? Thank you.

[Painted Face of Death]

My scum checklist for DJ:

Subtly pressuring the town to "compromise on a lynch" soon. Check.
Rush to L-1 or lynch someone. Check.
Claiming to speak for the town and set the town's agenda. Check.
Saying disagreement with him is scummy ("if you're town you should be on board"). Check.
As IS pointed out, trying for the lurker policy lynch as an easy lynch with plausible deniability. Check.

[Painted Face of Death]

I'm also requesting a 24 hour extension: we clearly need more time now. So we have till the 19th, because the original deadline was the 17th, and at least two players (DW and I) have requested extensions.

@Mod

- Tomorrow is the deadline, so as per Rule #11, I would like to request a 24 hour deadline extension. (This would make the deadline Thursday instead of Wednesday.

Any case that relies on misrepping a deadline to get it pushed through is going to be treated with great suspicion from me.

Odd, since DW "misrepped" the deadline earlier. The original deadline was the evening of the 17th so we have two and a half days from now even without any extensions. Yet DW just said tomorrow was the deadline.

[Painted Face of Death]

This is stupid. Why did you people wait until the last few days to start throwing suspicion at everything that moves?

IS, how can you expect anyone to take you seriously after the way you've behaved throughout the entire game? How can you expect people to take you seriously with what you have in your sig, for god's sake?

Ha, are you not familiar with IS's play style? He's infamous. He doesn't expect anyone to ever take him seriously. He did this meta thing for a while where he acted really scummy in a whole bunch of games in a row, and got lynched as a townie a bunch, until people stopped lynching him for acting scummy...

By the way, how do you feel about my sig?

[Painted Face of Death]

Given that I was mistaken originally, and you based your information on my mistake, I'm going to pull my vote for now.

UNVOTE: Slandaar

Strictly from a logical point of view, this unvote doesn't make sense. You just got the day wrong by one, but even so his posts were misrepresenting the deadline. As you pointed out, there was more than a day either way, and you explained to him several times that you'd asked for the deadline to be extended.

A little quick on the trigger to vote and unvote here?

[Painted Face of Death]

That is, even if you had been correct about the deadline being the 16th, after your extension request there would have been more than a day, as you noted several times, so it's not as if your mistake excuses his misrep.

[Painted Face of Death]

At this point I'm totally cool with lynching DJ or DV, the latter particularly after the last couple pages of anger and defensiveness. Gutter's being weird and angrily ranting again, like he did with me earlier except at IS, which again makes me think he's town.

If we get a wagon going on DV I'll switch over, though I'd prefer a DJ lynch. I'd rather a NoLynch than anyone else though: no one else seems that scummy that it's worth the risk.

[Painted Face of Death]

DW: I'm leaning towards Slandaar as being town. I had no particular desire to have you keep a vote on Slandaar and I thought your initial vote on him was a bit much: it seemed like an honest mistake, like yours.

[Painted Face of Death]

Yes, it would be nice to actually have people look at Deas and agree that there is a case there and maybe even bring up something that I missed instead of the equivalent of "if the wagon grows big enough ill jump on it".

Ha, I've been looking at DV and pointing things out all game!

[Painted Face of Death]

Nothing, if you're scum.

[Painted Face of Death]

Not only that, DJ's whole argument just screams of meta nonsense just from what Painted mis-characterized about me. So is this how the game works, Painted pulls shit out of his ass and Gutter (Who hasnt done shit and yet DJ and everyone else ignores) and DJ think is suddenly gospel handed down by the pope.

Don't blame me for their nonsense. If they're voting on you based on meta stuff from years and years ago, they're just scummy as hell and/or completely retarded. If people thought I was papally infallible they'd have lynched DJ and/or DV by now.

[Painted Face of Death]

slandaar, deasvail, dj, guttersnipe, noramp, [J] << this is my town voting block. come on guys. what do ya say? lets make some noise. IS trying to convince you that players cooperating with each other is "cultist" is scummy scummy bullshit. we need to work together to win.

we have a nice group of scum or VI in Deltawave, IS, PfoD, Skenvoy, Fennin. << thats our lynch pool and i say we start with IS..

If this doesn't convince you DJ is scum, nothing will. Here he's creating two "teams," each about half the town, and pitting one against the other. He put some players who mutually reinforce him on his "team," taking advantage of the "enemy of my enemy is my friend" ploy. This is scummy as hell. Except for the mafia, we should all be on the same team here.

[Painted Face of Death]

This is a great example of classic psychological warfare, DJ splitting the town into two groups so we fight each other. Check out the Robbers Cave experiment: http://www.spring.org.uk/2007/09/war-pe ... herifs.php

[Painted Face of Death]

Not posting for 14 hours is lurking?

[Painted Face of Death]

Oops, 15 hours. Either way, why are you trying to make it look like he hasn't posted for a while? One mix up about time is understandable but this second one is starting to look suspicious.

[Painted Face of Death]

The whole within 12 hours thing I find to very picky. I know that I've contradicted myself as town and I don't think it's particularly scummy.

What's really annoying is that at the back of my mind the whole game I've seen Slandaar as manipulative scum and this is encouraging that thought, except I do suspect Delta so I don't know what to think now.

Can you elaborate on Slandaar being manipulative scum? My memory is you thought he was town for a good part of the early game. I'd like to see your case on Slan.

Also: do you guys think that Slan and DJ being so close could be a WIFOM tactic, as in they're both scum, so they act like great buddies because they think no one will suspect that two scum would dare to publicly be so close? Because if not, one of them has to be town and I'm leaning towards it being Slan.

[Painted Face of Death]

hey dv just curious why did you decide to put me in front of dj in skens list?

Clearly, because if he hadn't, DJ would have been in his "lynch pool," and DJ and DV are scum together.

[Painted Face of Death]

Even if I missed that, the way you presented it makes it look objective.

It does? The way he limited everyone to 3 choices and limited his "lynch pool" to anyone who got 4 or more votes was completely arbitrary. He could have done it in many different ways. Obviously, he's going to present and interpret the data in whatever way supports what he wants. ("Wear a suit and present the data in a fancy table and they'll believe anything you say.")

Why do you think you have the right to 'decide on everyone's suspects'? And you still haven't answered my question about Guttersnipe's suspect list.

It's called the "super-citizen" strategy: essentially, a scum acts like they're the town leader, or they're running a meeting, to build up trust over the course of the game so that people's natural tribal instincts look up to them as the one in charge. It's amazingly effective when done well. Think of DV as playing Survivor here, rather than Mafia... we vote someone off the island every turn and he's trying to make sure it's not him.

[Painted Face of Death]

Lol 4CoS at Painted for such a ridiculous comment on something that I already explained. If you actually bothered to ISO Skenvoy like I did you will see why Painted.

I really hope that stands for 4 Cans of Spam. But probably not. What does that mean?

[Painted Face of Death]

Painted, you're actually right! I don't know why Gutter FoS'd me for that post!

Right about what? (and you sound so surprised )

[Painted Face of Death]

I'm really confused but that's probably cause I'm super low on sleep. I'm right about the cans of spam but it's actually claws of suspicion? and what does that have to do with not knowing why Gutter FoSed you? You put those two sentences together in a paragraph as though they were related. Did you mean that if I were right, FoS would be a Filet o' Spam, and so you don't know why Gutter would give you one?

[Painted Face of Death]

I actually mentioned that I would be among the top suspects too if I was Slandaar's third.

Where did you mention that? I looked back and checked when I saw you say this, because I didn't remember it, and I still don't see anywhere where you said that you would be in the lynch pool if you had one more vote.

And I was confused about the cans of spam/claws of suspicion thing and what it had to do with the FoS.

[Painted Face of Death]

Mod:

Can we

please

get updates on the vote counts and when the deadline is? We are now past the last official deadline you posted and I don't know if anyone else PMed you for an extension.

[Painted Face of Death]

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch
Day 1 deadline is 8:00PM on Nov. 19

My mistake: we're not actually past it yet. I forgot that you updated it. Still, it's closing in and I'd like to know if anyone else has asked for more time. Also, will you tell us who asked for more time or is that a secret?

[Painted Face of Death]

Whoa! Noramp claimed Neighbor and outed all her neighbors???

Noramp: Why would you roleclaim when there are no votes on you? What made you claim now?

That's really not a very pro-town thing to do. In fact, I think this is the single scummiest thing that anyone has done all game.

Vote: Noramp

IS and [J]: Care to confirm or deny that the three of you are in a neighborhood?

Also, a neighborhood of three is no more likely to be scum than any other three randomly selected people. If you choose any three people, "chances are reasonable" that one is scum. That's all the wiki meant.

Noramp, why on earth do you think "there is generally one scum in a neighborhood"??

[Painted Face of Death]

Oops, votes need to be at the beginning of a line. Let me fix that.

Unvote

Vote: Noramp

[Painted Face of Death]

Are neighbourhoods completely random? I mean, not just with the people in them, but also the roles?

How would the answer to this question benefit the town?

It's all up to the Mod. The Mod can assign them randomly or set them up however he/she wants.

It would benefit the town to know if, for instance, the Mod always made neighborhoods of all town, because then we'd know that the neighborhood was all town.

[Painted Face of Death]

neighbor isnt my role...

I am really confused now. Why did you say you were in a neighborhood with the others if you're not a neighbor? Or are you saying that you have an additional role as well as being a neighbor?

[Painted Face of Death]

anyone else think its odd that painted voted for me for supposedly claiming and is now trying to figure out my role? and i'm saying that neighbor isn't contingent on any role

What do you mean, supposedly claiming? You claimed neighbor. Why is it supposedly?

Neighbor is a role, actually. Yes, it is true that you can have any other role in combination with being a neighbor.

[Painted Face of Death]

stop rolefishing. neighbors can have abilities in addition to being neighbors. i hav seen neighbor docs, neighbor cops, neighbor 1 shot vigs, etc. there is no reason to discuss roles. anything is possible as long as it fits into the mini-normal ruleset. the wiki used to state that neighbors were players with out of thread communication who didn't know each others alignments. that has been amended since the game i linked to earlier where we had scumneighbors. the possibilities are irrelevant at this time. what you should be addressing is the case on IS, or the case on DV, or the case on DW, or the case on sken, or the case DW claims exists on you but can't produce, or the case on slandaar, etc. at this point we are not really doing ourselves any favors by continuing with irrelevant conversations. deadline or no, we need to come a lynch consensus. once we have an L-1 and a roleclaim, then we can discuss roles etc. seriously, try and see this game from a replacements pov. if someone has to replce in to this game somewhere down the line, its going to be a daunting task. we have plenty of info to sift through. our priority now should be lynching. not being stupid and not being unable to understand the wiki or the rules of this game. this is not the newbie forum and i am not sure why they are letting new players into these games.

If you're trying to suggest that I don't understand the rules or the wiki, or that I'm a newbie or a new player, you are entirely mistaken.

And I'm sure you'd like me to focus on others, since you're scum. But right now Noramp and you are the people I'm focusing on. I agree that we should come to a lynch consensus and I suggest we put DJ, Noramp, or DV at L-1 since they are the top scum candidates in my view.

It is irrelevant that neighbors can have other roles; anything is possible. What is relevant now is Noramp's astoundingly bad move of claiming to be a neighbor, on day 1, with no votes on him. Then Noramp said he lied and he wasn't a neighbor. There is no reason to lie if you're town and one of those two must be a lie.

I'm in a neighborhood with IS and J. IS is acting way more scummy than J and correct me if I'm wrong but there's generally one scum in a neighborhood.

neighbor isnt my role...

Direct contradiction right there. Noramp also didn't bother to explain why he would do such a scummy thing.

[Painted Face of Death]

(Claiming on day 1 with no votes, that is)

[Painted Face of Death]

Of course Neighbor is a role. Check the Wiki page if you're not clear on this. How could it not be a role? It gives you the ability to talk to other people privately. Do you think Mason isn't a role either?

"Vanilla townie" generally means someone who has no special ability, so Noramp couldn't be a VT if he's telling the truth about being a Neighbor.

[Painted Face of Death]

Mod

Fennin hasn't posted for 3 days 15 hours
[J] hasn't posted for 4 days 18 hours

[Painted Face of Death]

Noramp, why did you claim? You realize town are generally not supposed to claim on Day 1 unless they're at L-1 (or there's some reason to claim like a massclaim or other strategy such as follow-the-cop)?

And what is a "secondary role"? I do not understand what you are trying to say. Neighbor isn't as powerful as some other roles, but it's still not something you want the scum to know if it turns out all 3 of you are town.

[Painted Face of Death]

DJ: enough; yes; incorrect.

Care to explain why you keep insulting me and what you think I'm doing that's so stupid?

[Painted Face of Death]

To further my case against DJ and noramp:

stop rolefishing.

1. Note how DJ misrepresents me as "rolefishing," and portrays this as being a bad thing. Obviously it's a good thing to rolefish for scum roles. Note that noramp had just claimed neighbor, then nonsensically said it wasn't his role, so asking WTF he meant by that -- whether he was also claiming he had another role, or he was just lying -- was the obvious question.

Clearly, it's bad for town to claim without a good reason -- in fact, this is why I originally voted for noramp! I am trying to figure out who noramp is and why he acted so strangely, of course, but I don't want anyone who is town to claim a role (without a good reason).

So DJ jumps in and scummily defends noramp here. Noramp then returns the favor:

anyone else think its odd that painted voted for me for supposedly claiming and is now trying to figure out my role? and i'm saying that neighbor isn't contingent on any role

Here he jumps on the "OMG Painted is trying to figure out who noramp is! He must be scum" wagon, following DJ.

And why would that be odd? Obviously, we don't want townies with roles to claim, but once someone does, then we want to figure out what's up.

neighbor is a role but has no bearing on alignment so why would you vote me for telling you that we have a neighborhood. You then attempt to figure out if i have a role outside of vt. that is definition of rolefishing

a) Yes, neighbors can be scum, so that's why I voted you for doing something scummy. Town have no reason to reveal the neighborhood to scum now.

b) Well, you claimed neighbor, then implied you had another role, so I'm trying to figure out what is going on here. Again, noramp argues the spurious "rolefishing" accusation.

(2) neighbors can have abilities in addition to being neighbors.
[/quote="DJ"]

Well, yes, of course they can. That doesn't mean that they should claim as neighbors. Again, DJ tries to spin this as though this has anything to do with the case on noramp: that's not what's up for debate.

(3) the possibilities are irrelevant at this time. what you should be addressing is the case on IS, or the case on DV, or the case on DW, or the case on sken, or the case DW claims exists on you but can't produce, or the case on slandaar, etc. at this point we are not really doing ourselves any favors by continuing with irrelevant conversations.

Since noramp did something really scummy, and this conversation is about noramp, it's kind of odd to call it an irrelevant conversation... unless you're scum.

(4) not being stupid and not being unable to understand the wiki or the rules of this game.

Again, more insults from DJ rather than addressing the point. This came out of nowhere: unless DJ actually thinks I misstated a rule and wants to correct it, what is the point of this except just to hurl abuse at his attacker?

[Painted Face of Death]

It's all up to the Mod. The Mod could have put all, none, or some of the scum in a neighborhood. The Mod could have randomized it or done it any other way.

[Painted Face of Death]

Exactly. If they even are neighbors, which we don't know for sure.

[Painted Face of Death]

Of course people should keep their roles quiet, which is why I didn't ask noramp to reveal his role, and also why I voted him for claiming and revealing his neighbor role. I did ask him what he meant by his cryptic comment that neighbor wasn't his role, but I certainly didn't want him to reveal any other role, if he has one.

And it is really scummy the way DJ continues to misrepresent me as asking for noramp to reveal information about his role, when I did no such thing and in fact strongly voted him and criticized him for doing so!

[Painted Face of Death]

Since Sken isn't going to get lynched, and that I linked her with Painted for being scum :

VOTE: Painted

This sorta feels like Fennin just wants to lynch someone, and jumps on one of the largest wagons.

pfod: by asking him to clarify his statement, you run the risk of outing more information regarding his actual role. i am not misrepresenting you. he claimed neighbor and said it wasn't his "role". you voted him(for god knows why), and then asked him to clarify his statement. it was pretty damn obvious what he meant and there was no reason for him to clarify it, so for you to ask him about it is useless, ignorant, and anti-town.

unvote, vote: pfod

now you are really in the lead. thanks for ignoring my response and not answering my previous question. you and IS are like peas in a pod. you use your ill tempers as smokescreens for your horrible play.

Not at all. I'm hunting scum. I don't see anyone else calling out Noramp on his bizarre behavior. Who in the world randomly claims on Day 1 with no reason? It's like the first day of Mafia 101 that

YOU DON'T DO THAT.

I find Noramp's statements cryptic and confusing, so I don't agree that it was obvious what he meant. He still hasn't explained. If you were actually town I would think you'd be pressing him to answer. He had already outed information for no reason, so I don't see why you think I'm the one who wanted him to reveal. How could I be the one who wanted him to reveal when I voted him for revealing? And I did not ask him what his other role was, I asked him what he meant by his claim.

It's really odd that you think him maybe partially claiming is totally fine and reasonable, but a full claim would be totally anti-town.

I think my last posts answered all your questions that weren't totally obvious or previously discussed to death: what didn't I answer?

[Painted Face of Death]

Also, there's a pattern in what DJ is doing: I actually think he's a really talented scum. For instance, earlier when I argued DV was scum, he responded by attacking me, but completely ignored the actual argument against DV. Instead, he argued I was scum because I was supposedly defending Sken by attacking DV.

Now, I'm arguing Noramp is scum, and instead of responding to that at all, he's arguing I'm scum for pressing Noramp, ignoring the actual substance of the argument.

The tactic here seems to be to attack someone else's attack, twisting it around to make it look like they're the scummy ones. Earlier, he kept saying I was defending Sken, when I carefully explained several times that I had no opinion of Sken. Now, he keeps saying I was trying to get Noramp to reveal his role, when I actually voted him for doing so and said it was scummy.

If I had wanted Noramp to reveal more, why would I say that it was really scummy to reveal and vote him when he did?

P-Edit: Slan, I don't agree: please explain?

[Painted Face of Death]

Slan, it's true that a Neighbor is no more or less likely to be scum than anyone else. So you're right about the other two people he outed, even if they are really neighbors (and they haven't posted since to confirm or deny). But the reason I think Noramp is scum is not because he's a Neighbor, he's scum cause he claimed, and then (possibly) soft claimed an additional power role, with the spurious justification that it made IS more likely to be scum. Town just does not do that on Day 1.

DJ, I answered that question already: "enough." And the type of answer I expected from Noramp:

1. "I didn't mean a Neighbor in the game sense, I meant we all live on the same street."

2. "Yes, I meant that I was soft claiming a power role. I meant that Neighbor is not my only role."

3. "No, I meant that I was mistaken in my earlier claim and I am not actually a Neighbor."

4. "Fuck, you're right, IS being my Neighbor does not make it more likely that he's scum. I obviously shouldn't have claimed on Day 1, I'm sorry, town."

5. "I was confused about what a role is. I didn't realize that Neighbor was a role and that's why I said 'Neighbor is not my role.' I was not soft claiming."

Any of those would have been reasonable. (Well, #1 is kind of silly, but it makes more sense than what he said.)

See, Noramp's statement was ambiguous. It could have meant any of these things or something else. Which is scummy in itself; he can go back and say it meant whichever is more convenient later on. So it's a good thing to try to pin it down. If someone is going to soft claim (which I don't support right now) they should soft claim, not make an ambiguous statement that might or might not be a soft claim.

[Painted Face of Death]

Ok, DJ, here is the case against Noramp in outline form, with numbers, as requested:

A. Outing a neighborhood is not a town move.
. 1. Town generally does not claim with no reason on Day 1.
. 2. If the neighborhood was entirely town, now scum know about it. Thus, it's unlikely town would do it.
. 3. Scum can use the town's knowledge of the neighborhood to set up the town by killing some of the neighbors.
. 4. The town's knowledge of the neighborhood does not help us at all.
. 5. His apparent reason for claiming -- arguing that one of his neighbors (IS) was likely scum -- makes no sense at all. There is no reason to think that a neighborhood must contain scum.
. 6. His alleged neighbors have not confirmed or denied yet: this is still pending, so we don't know if he's telling the truth.

B. Noramp's behavior after claiming was also scummy.
. 1. He posted an ambiguous statement that may or may not be a soft claim.
.. a. Soft claiming an additional power role on Day 1 with no reason is even more scummy than claiming Neighbor.
.. b. The ambiguity is scummy because he can later claim it meant whatever he wanted.
. 2. He posted an ambiguous statement that may or may not be going back on his earlier claim.
.. a. If so, he must have been lying at least once and we should Lynch All Liars.
.. b. Posting "X" and then "not X" immediately after is scummy.
. 3. He didn't answer any follow-up questions, clarify his post, or explain himself in any way.
. 4. He misrepresented the Wiki by saying "going off the wiki it seems extremely likely that there is at least one scum [in the neighborhood.]"
. 5. He jumped on DJ's scummy misrepresentation attack on me by saying I was role fishing for asking what his ambiguous statement meant.
. 6. He made the weird comment "neighbor is a secondary role" without explaining or elaborating. Did he mean he thought Neighbor was generally not as important of a role as some others, so it's ok to claim it? Did he mean Neighbor was in a different category of roles because it can go with other roles? (Any role can do that.) Did he mean he had two roles and they were somehow labelled "primary" and "secondary"? Did he mean he had a more powerful role? Who knows.
.. a. Ambiguity is scummy because it doesn't help the town.
.. b. Ambiguity is scummy because scum can go back and claim it meant any of several things, whatever is most convenient for him.
.. c. Him making weird statements without explanations or answers, and just ignoring questions, darting in and out to make cryptic comments, is extremely scummy behavior as noted in (3) above.

I think the above is the strongest case there is on anyone right now.

[Painted Face of Death]

I just noticed this:

5. If more than 5 players are alive and no player has been lynched by the end of the day deadline,

the player with the most votes on them will be automatically lynched.

If nobody is being voted for or two players have the same number of votes on them, no lynch will occur. If there isn't an agreement on who to lynch when 5 or less players remain, no lynch will occur.

What's especially interesting about this is that we don't know when the deadline is.

Mod:

May we assume that if the deadline passes and you have not announced an extension, then there hasn't been one? If not, could you please make sure we know when the deadline is?

So it's looking like I have either already been lynched or will be lynched tomorrow unless a few people unvote.

I am not sure if I am allowed to make substantive comments now, since I may be dead.

[Painted Face of Death]

Taking DV at his word that he requested another day since the last deadline, I have 16 hours to live at this point.

I'm going to beg that people ask for more time. Rather than lynch me, it would be better to lynch scum. Right now I believe there are four votes on me: Noramp, CG/Fennin, DJ, and Gutter. If I do die, look at that pool for scum.

If someone wants to save me from being lynched, vote CG now. I'm putting the third vote on him. If someone puts a fourth, then there will be a tie and no one will be lynched.

Vote: Captain Greypatch

[Painted Face of Death]

Also: if I die, scum will try to twist my words around to make it look like I was acting scummy. I wasn't: I was the subject of a Mafia attack. I consistently looked at the way people acted and tried to find scum. All my arguments were made in good faith, and I believe they are clearly and logically reasoned.

[Painted Face of Death]

CG: At the time, DV's attacks on Sken looked scummy to me, so I attacked DV. That's one reason to "defend" someone; another would be because you think they're town. Why do you think whatever "defense" I did was motivated by the reasons you say?

[Painted Face of Death]

I just went back and checked it and its freaking hilarious. Noramp is sitting back there politicking like hell trying to get [J] to come after me. He is still going on about this nonsense where one of the neighbors MUST be scum. I have no idea where that comes from, its the most asinine form of WIFOM I have ever seen. So what are we going to do, destroy everyone in the 'hood over Noramp's paranoia? So if IS and [J] flip innocent, whats Noramp going to do, submit himself to a voluntary lynch?

See,

this

is a town thing to do: reveal what other people talked about in the neighborhood chat so the whole town knows. If someone wants to copypaste it, that would be even more town.

[Painted Face of Death]

Alright here's the thing. I'm in a neighborhood with IS and J.

neighbor is a role but has no bearing on alignment

Painted I've stated along with a couple other people that neighbor is NOT my role. It is not like mason it is just a secondary role with no alignment.

So what is it? If it's a role, how is it not your role? And why do you think neighbor is not like mason? And what is a "secondary role"?

There are a lot of roles that can be any alignment. There can be a Mafia Doctor. So what?

I am/was under the impression that there was a good chance that a neighborhood of 3 would contain at least one scum.

There is, but the relevant question is whether the neighborhood increases the chance that someone is scum. It doesn't, as far as we know.

I never soft claimed anything. You attempted to draw a role out of me after voting for me but I never soft claimed anything.

Ok, this is good to know. What you said was ambiguous. DJ thought it was obvious that you

were

saying you had another power role. I wasn't sure what you meant.

How is asking what you meant "attempting to draw a role out of you"? You saw that I said, very strongly, that revealing your Neighbor role the way you did was not a town move?

If we're all town then scum already know we're all town it doesn't matter if we're in a neighborhood or not and being in a neighborhood does NOT enhance your chance of getting a power role so they have just as much chance of hitting a power role random NKing.

The scum can use the fact that town know to manipulate the town. What you said doesn't really help the town. If you had copypasted the neighbor chat, that might have helped the town.

Your second point about neighbors not being more likely to have a power role is true. It also has nothing to do with what I was saying. Scum would try to kill neighbors for other reasons.

[Painted Face of Death]

CG: I voted for you because a tie is better than lynching someone who's town. You and IS were tied with the most votes and IS seems town.

If we nolynch Day 1, we have some information. We have all the Day 1 posts as well as who the Mafia killed.

It's better to lynch scum than nolynch, but it's better to nolynch than tie.

I didn't think Sken was town at the time: I thought DV was scummier than Sken so I voted DV based on Sken's attacks.

[Painted Face of Death]

(I mean the most votes other than me)

[Painted Face of Death]

I was explaining why I voted for you. I know I'm town, I don't want to be lynched, so I vote in a way that allows a tie.

And I was mistaken, you were tied for 2 with DW, and Fennin's play before you came on seemed scummier than DW's.

[Painted Face of Death]

Whew! I'm happy to be alive at least a little more. Thought I was dead.

you guys realize that pfod went into self preservation mode instead of, you know, like claiming or something.

Ok, I'll claim. I'm a vanilla townie.

no lynch is terrible. which agai9n, if pfod is town, harkens back to the fact that he is a newb with not enough experience to be playing with the big boys. when you guys make up your minds let me know. i'll put my vote where its needed. til then, the king VI can stay in the lead.

I realize DJ meant it as another of his inflammatory insults, but I read that as "King Six" for a minute and got very confused.

If I do die, again, look at CG and DJ especially, since they put the critical votes on me. Going along with IS's point about DJ jumping around from one attack to another, I suspect part of his plan was to launch attacks on several people during the middle of Day 1 so it would look less suspect when he put the vote on someone right before the deadline.

Anyone who doesn't think I'm scum, please put the 4th vote on CG so this townie doesn't get lynched!

[Painted Face of Death]

no lynch is terrible. which agai9n, if pfod is town, harkens back to the fact that he is a newb with not enough experience to be playing with the big boys. when you guys make up your minds let me know. i'll put my vote where its needed. til then, the king VI can stay in the lead.

Oh, and also, none of this is at all true. If I do get lynched, DJ will try to argue that I actually was scummy/newb/VI or whatever his insult of the week is, to avoid the hopefully upcoming attack on him. Don't believe it! At least if I do get lynched DJ's guilt will become clear.

[Painted Face of Death]

It is currently 12:41 pacific, which means we have 5 more hours.

Vote: Metabot

Not my first choice, but I'd rather lynch someone I know is a lurker than someone I know is a townie.

[Painted Face of Death]

In case that wasn't clear, I meant I know that I'm a townie, and I'd rather we lynch Metabot, who I know is a lurker, than being lynched myself.

[Painted Face of Death]

Vote: don_johnson

[Painted Face of Death]

So Noramp got killed by the Mafia before he could answer the rest of my questions. Obviously I was wrong about him being town but revealing the neighborhood was a strange thing to do.

[J], could you confirm or deny that you're in a neighborhood with IS and Noramp?

Either [J] or IS, would you help the town by posting a copy-and-paste of the neighborhood chat or providing a link?

So we lost our "backup doctor," which strongly suggests that there is a current doctor. Since the cop-doctor combo is broken, there's probably NOT a cop. If there is a cop, what do people think about the idea that he should reveal himself so that the doctor can protect him and we can all play follow the cop?

[Painted Face of Death]

I mean, I was wrong about him being scum; he actually was town.

[Painted Face of Death]

Yes, that's DV, Slan, Gutter, CG, and DJ, which puts Sken at L-1. I really don't understand the case for a Sken lynch. If we have to lynch someone other than DV/DJ I'd prefer to lynch CG, Gutter, or Slan. Look at how fast they hopped on Meta's mislynch and they all hopped on the Sken wagon quickly today as well. Also, notice DJ put Sken at L-1 and also Meta at L-1 last turn.

DV, what is your non-meta case on Sken?

Sken: if you would be fine with a DJ lynch why are you not voting DJ?

Mod:

Can we get replacements for J and OO? It has been over 10 days since either has posted.

[Painted Face of Death]

I'm sorry, that was completely wrong. It should be DV, Slan, CG, DJ, and Gutter: it was Gutter who put Sken at L-1, not DJ. My apologies.