Mini 1266 - My iTunes Mafia - GAME OVER

[don_johnson]

/confirm

[don_johnson]

vote: skenvoy

oh slandaar! you are a beacon of light!

[don_johnson]

slan: by that i mean as i was reading the thread i found myself agreeing with you. i too am a beacon, but i'm more like a flourescent. gotta warm up.

[don_johnson]

okey dokey [j] heres my take:

first page: painted rvs vote looks like it could be scum over the top trying to be funny/fit in with townies. i read the "*evil laugh* more like a nervous laugh if that makes sense. nothing huge, but certainly the first thing to ping any sort of scumdar.

then deas votes serious? i guess so. if you notice, sken had voted painted in confirm stage, then changed his random vote to [J]. why rvs twice? i don't know. again nothing big, but certainly odd.

painted calls deas out. sure he

could

be a concerned townie looking for the first

serious

vote to be explained. but why bother? why not let sken handle it?

deas then produces a wierd "meta" type reason for his vote. ok. whatevz.

then sken says: "point is void". but in fact, if sken is scum the point is not void. infact, nothing sken can say makes the point void. the "point" is really just an opinion. but again, whatevz. i mean, what is sken gonna say? "herp derp, you got me, i'm scum." i don't think so.

then slan quotes the silly question sken asks of deas. not posting a reason until you are asked is a very townie thing to do. it helps you guage reactions. thats kinda mafiascum 101 imo. its just a really weak response to the vote in the first place. its like sken plays it off as though he's not concerned, but then he asks a question which shows concern. just wierd.

i guess to me, slan's post was self explanatory. so painted's "wtf was that?" post reads like chainsaw defense. then looking back at the rvs connection, it seems to all come together for me.

then deas points out what i saw earlier. then painted actually votes deas which reads like an even bigger chainsaw defense of sken. deas points are valid, ah shit, lets just break it down:

Three reasons:
a) not providing reasons at first, then saying "because I knew someone would prompt me." Why not just provide them up front instead of fishing for questions with a useless post?

"fishing" is a large part of scumhunting. and is useful. the "useless post" actually generated reactions, discussions, and so "useless" does not really apply.

b) the reasons he did provide don't make much sense. They're super meta and consist of reading way too much into a comment that the theme seems cool.

Skenvoy didn't say anything about defending her "choice to stay in the game" and there's no need to defend such a choice anyway

.

first, the "reasons" make sense, just because they are "meta" does not invalidate them. in regards to the italicized, exactly the point. so why is sken choosing to defend himself.

c) finally, post 30 doesn't make much sense either. I don't really even want to get into this because it's so meta and besides the point, but DV's theory doesn't work even on its own terms. Skenvoy signed up for the game -- presumably because she was interested -- and then asked if she could get out, which DV finds weirdly suspicious. Yet in post 30 DV seems to think, or try to sneakily imply, that staying in requires some sort of explanation and that Skenvoy's explanation wasn't relevant.

sken signed up. wanted out. pms were distributed. sken wanted in. is there something wrong with the timeline here? cause it makes perfect sense to me. dumb reason for a vote, but a reason nonetheless. deas is not the one making a big deal out of it. in fact, his vote post was rather subdued. the reaction to it is what has been overblown. i don't see deas "sneakily" implying anything. i think his posting is up front. also, paint seems to be referring to sken as "she". maybe i missed the gender tag, but paint certainly seems familiar with the maiden he's whiteknighting atm.

slan notices the same thing i notice at that point, which is the growing connection between sken and painted. hence, "sken you are a beacon of light."

not sure why deas moves their vote next, but that post makes sense.

38 reads like painted trying to downplay his reactions.

slan in 42 is a good point.

so here we go again:

i) First, you vote for Skenvoy, providing reasons when asked. There's nothing wrong with this in itself: it's just that your reasoning is poor.

nope. painted's "a)" from earlier was all about "not providing reasons at first". suddenly its not a big deal?

ii) Next, I vote for you, explaining my reasons. Note that my reasons did not include you being suspicious of a player and voting. That's not what I suspect you for: I suspect you for the reasons I listed.

what?? this makes no sense to me and i have no idea why this is even numbered.

iii) Finally, you switch your vote to me, apparently for providing reasons ("trying to make my vote seem justified"). You backpedal on i), saying it was just a useless RVS post, but RVS ends when people actually get suspicious and start having reasons for their votes. You say I'm nitpicking by voting for you based on my early suspicion, when at the same time, you vote for me based on yours.

this is not an equation imo. painted provided bullshit reasons. deas provided good ones. this an "apples to oranges" type of lgic here.

There's nothing wrong with either of us voting based on our suspicions -- this game is all about analysis -- it's just a matter of whether the reasoning is solid. Yours isn't. There's nothing odd about Skenvoy thinking she'd be ineligible for a newbie game if she joined this one and asking if she could leave, then staying in once she realized she was ineligible anyway, the game had already started, and the theme was kickass. The way you and Slandaar tried to start something on Skenvoy for poor reasons, then backpedal once you're called on it, is pretty suspicious.

i didn't see any backpedaling. i guess if you and sken are town, then this could be some scum mastermind plan, but deas voted sken before she offered her explanation, its not like deas listened to sken's explanation and

then

voted. deas just pointed out that the reasoning was really irrelevant to the original reason for voting. it wasn't a big deal, just a solid piece of logic.

sken 53 could be right, we could all be town here, but it also gives him an out to conveniently not have to suspect painted. if they are buddies, that is probably the right play for sken. start distancing. the fact that he doesn't

really

comment on painted at this point is worrisome. i.e. he just glances the argument and fencesits.

so i guess we're back here. how was that?

[don_johnson]

I swear to God Painted, I want to see you hanged just for being irrational. When someone says something against you your immediate response is to claim suspicion of that person (though in the most recent case with Skenvoy it seems a lot more like conscious distancing), and in addition to that you are unable (or unwilling) to realise that the whole issue of whether DeasVail's original reasoning for voting Sken was reasonable or not is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT, and so you KEEP BRINGING IT BACK UP, which is, as far as I can tell, only a good thing to do if you want to waste a lot of people's time (which, imo, is a scum thing to do). When people explain why they think you are suspicious, you seemingly inevitably misconstrue what they are saying and claim that they are misrepresenting you or whatever, and then when nobody agrees with you you're surprised, as though it never occurs to you that it could be

your

reasoning that is flawed.

^^ very much this. its getting a little old at this point and it is difficult to tell if painted's ignorance is feigned. that said, i think my suspicion of painted more or less relies on a skenvoy scumflip. though scum defending town could be an option, i see more scum dfending town towards the end of a wagon and not necessarily fresh out of rvs. with skenvoy doing little to nothing in the way of scumhunting and the wierd defense, i see no reason to move my vote at this time.

the metabot pressure is good atm, so we need a little more from that slot. calling out "lurkers" on page 5 is odd, and meta's preemptive and ambiguous defense of his own absence is just, well, odd. my gut tells me that sken is a good wagon, and if thats the case, meta suspicion could just be a distraction from the real thing, so that will depend on metabots reaction and future content.

painted: the case against sken really has nothing to do with deas earlier vote or reasoning, based on everyones interactions derived from that situation, who do you think is most likely scum and why. please organize your post, perhaps in bullet points, or number your suspects and then letter the reasons. i.e. most liekly scum can be number (1) with reasons (a, b, and c). something like that which will be easier to respond to and also may help you organize your thoughts. i see you have referred to me as "scummy", but i am not sure where you stand, and even after carefully reading your posts, the only reason i can see you presenting is "that post", which is unhelpful because in that post you said i was either "scum or vi" and then went on to agree with a couple points i made while ignoring the crux of the discussion at that time. so if you can expedite you posts(try to avoid quote walls etc.) and give something plain and simple that lets me know where you stand at the current time i would appreciate it.

[don_johnson]

i'll clarify some points on skenvoy tomorrow morning. also try to address other things...

[don_johnson]

sorry, spent yesterday crippled with a hangover. i'll backtrack to where i last checked in and catch up. i did notice people calling for the skenvoy case, reasons for my original vote, etc. this is puzzling. i thought it was pretty damn obvious. but i am fine with a call for specifics if thats what these requests are. FoS on anyone pretending to not understand it though. i clearly spelled out the basics in earlier posts. though i can't promise where i'll end up after this catch up, it seems imo that subsequent votes/cases have been more "distractions" than tremendously productive scumhunting. but i will try to have an open mind.

in any case:

No. It's not that he didn't recognize the gender of a player. It's that he accused me because I recognized the gender of a player which was clearly visible on every one of her posts.

meh. this was a very small part of what i posted and was something i included as a side note. to me it just added to the sken/painted connection. i never focused on this as a daming point, it is just a small piece of a larger puzzle i felt existed at the time(and as yet, still do). may be some people pay attention more to gender than i do, and not to be sexist, but i find males in the majority of my gamnes and so will often default to he/his/him until it is pointed out to me that i am talking with a woman. but whatevz. arguying the weakest point of a case against you is borderline strawman. its really unecessary unless it makes you uncomfrotable. so why would it make you uncomfortable enough to focus on it? i could understand if the case was based on such a minor detail, but ignoring the crux of the argument(your explicit defense of a player) and focusing on a minor detail is lame.

Are you kidding? I explained clearly in great detail why almost everything he said was completely wrong or a non sequitur. The one thing I qualified was that DV's "fishing" post ended up being useful. If you're still confused please ask more specifically.

i would rather not pbpa the original post in question as i feel it would be wasteful. if someone needs me to, just say it. otherwise i will just point out that this is complete bs. you showed nothing in that post. as i recall, you said i was "scummy or vi" and then proceeded to summarize my actions and agree with some things and never really point out any sort of scum motivation for my other actions. but whatevz.

As far as the reasoning against me, there hasn't been much given, and what has been given is based on false premises or misunderstandings (not understanding what happened with Sken; not understanding how the chainsaw defense works; thinking there's something fishy about me actively trying to fish out scum by asking for reasons; and so forth)

i understand what happened with sken. they reacted poorly to a pressure vote, when the wagon grew, you jumped in to defend them. you did this by attacking sken's attackers(which is the definition of chainsaw defense), not sure what you mean about the "fishing for reasons" part, but i'm pretty sure you called someone scummy for "fishing", and then did it yourself.

81 sums things up nicely. slandaar is a big town read for me atm.

83 is more "i really don't get it" from painted. this kind of ignorasnce, again looks tough to feign. i will reiterate, painted is more likely scum if sken flips scum. as a stand alone case, painted reads more like VI. the logic fails are incredible and painted seems to enjoy trying to compare apples to oranges and then trying to convince us that they are all apples.

84 is painted showing a lack of understanding again. they seem convinced that the original sken vote by deas was poor, which again, has not been the case at all. also, painted talks about:

This seems like a strategy scum might use: make poorly reasoned attacks on someone randomly, and then start a wagon on whoever calls you on the attacks, arguing they were "defending" the first person.

i don't think anyone has attacked painted, have they? the focus has been on sken, with a strong "buddying" suggestion between sken and painted for the protracted defense. another apples to oranges type of moment. painted finished this post with the old "well what about the lurkers" type comment. common scum tactic. i don't like it when people try and call out inactivity early in a game. its kind of like "well, i know i'm suspicious, but what about all those people." it always looks like an attempt to get the heat off of yourself.

86: thank you monk. if sken flips town this is the most likely to be a scum vote. certainly doesn't look like a bus, so this gives me a good take on monk dependent on sken's flip. it does look like sken has been slipping under the radar and letting her white knight take the heat.

slandaar again is correct and logical in 89, 90, 91.

skenvoy 93: my original attacker and the player i know in real life is town. "painted, stop defending me."

In this post, PFoD basically repeats my earlier argument that scum are probably lying low, but the way he says it reeks of getting attention off himself (and me) - I don't like the way it's posted.

where is your vote at at this point?

post ends with baseless statements and wifom. so basically, no scumhunting except to call out painted(who is making you both look bad), and no vote, FoS... nothing.

metabot 94 reads like a scumbuddy to sken/painted. avoids the crux of the argument. states it is a catch up post, but looks more like he read 2 pages.

post 95. why is sken's vote on J? why is painted on deas?

J 97: why is painted scum? why is monk a good "push"?

Don, why is your vote on skenvoy when you said that my initial reason for voting her wasn't that strong and your summary post seemed to indicate you were more suspicious of Painted.

this was already explained earlier.

i think my suspicion of painted more or less relies on a skenvoy scumflip.

^^ its in iso 4(post 110).

Your posts seem to depend on what everyone else thinks rather than what you think yourself, as if you have no opinion? Firstly, you never actually properly explained why Skenvoy deserved the attention. Secondly, how can we push interaction out of them, if you're saying that this is the plan?

meh. i don't have an issue with monk unless sken flips town. it is obvious imo, why sken needs attention, and monk is using his vote to push that interaction.

sken 99 is odd. only because it took so long for sken to come out and state that he didn't like painteds defense. am i wrong on this? it seemed like sken kept quiet about the defense until it became a major pressure point.

sken 101: "lets check out the lurkers." i find painted suspicious, but not enough to move my rvs vote from J over to him. scummy.

104 is gold. i less than three slandaar.

105: i am painted and i am completely unable to focus on the argument at hand, so i will continue to argue irrelevant points.

I'm leaning towards Skenvoy as scum now. I still suspect DV and I'm going to wait and see what responses I get before changing my vote. And still nothing from DJ after his one long scummy post.

RFOL! get a room you two.

While this is possible, you forget to point out in your theory that she could have received another active role, on town's side, and wanting to stay in because of it? It seems you are only focusing on her possible scum role.

hm. don't like this. why would focus on outing a town role? its called "scumhunting". not "townhunting". but whatevz.

Don, why do you think that skenvoy is scum?

a) poor reaction to an end of RVS vote.
b) delayed reaction to protracted defense by painted.
c) lack of scumhunting. riding that RVS vote and calling out lurkers.

^^ pretty much sums it up. if its still not clear, let me know.

112: sken finally votes painted. i prefer to see people use their vote at early signs of suspicion. its kind of like sken had to be pushed into this one. but we'll see. especially odd since just moments earlier he was talking about not letting quieter players slide. this does nothing to achieve the goal of calling others out.

guttersnipe: good vote. only suspect if sken flips town.

J makes no sense here. i don't see any town read here. this post is really trying to derail the wagon.

You go the entire post saying stuff about how Sken is the person of interest, addresse a few odd posts but don't do much of anything with them.

so, in your opinion, sken is town. sken's wagon is growing. scum fennin then votes to avoid this wagon? hm. i see maybe where you're going. but again, this is a vote which seems to serve more as a distraction than an actual case. i don't see the whole "metabot word contortion" thing. meh.

Her points are a bit waffly but it is more of a town intent than a scum-intent especially with the way she has been responding to the pressure on her and the way she has approached the PFoD wagon. I don't see much scum-intent from her posts but an almost bellicose amount of town-intent.

waffling isn't really a town tell in my book. confusion, maybe. but not waffling. especially in the manner in which sken has done it. accepting the defense complacently at first. calling it out when it comes into question from others, but not voting it. calling out lurkers, but not voting any of them. then calling out lurkers again, and voting her white knight who is probablyu at that time the second leading wagon to her own. i don't see much town intent here. i see her protecting both herself and painted(as long as she could without accumulating more suspicion).

J is starting to look like scum defending town. i.e. sken town flip points to J exhibiting behavior i discussed earlier when differentiating between scum defending scum and scum defending town.

sken: please give me your thoughts on this. you haven't exhibited very "townie" behavior as some of us have pointed out, but J claims a strong town read on you. your wagon has built to early critical mass imo, and it looks to me like if you are town, J could be buying town points by defending the day 1 mislynch. thoughts?

I don't think DJ is that low considering I have found monk and painted to be very scummy in their posts. I couldn't understand DJ's vote for Skenvoy, which is why he's so high.

my original vote? or why my vote is still there? is it clear now?

I actually think painted replied to this a while back, but I didn't go back and check it at the time. What is interesting to me is that Deasveil has been referring to me by the correct gender as well (and knows me a hell of a lot better than painted, which I think is obvious from our posts), but DJ didn't (and hasn't) mentioned it at all. Seems a bit of a double standard to me.

yes. let's go back and focus on a minor detail included in the original post. guess what? you deas weren't acting like scumbuddies at the time. you and painted were practically holding hands. the "gender" connection was a small detail which bolstered a larger, more obvious connection based on gameplay. double standard occurs when static laws are applied to similar circumstances. the relationships between the three of you were different.

slandaar 155. following my train of thought. again. if you are scum, you are a mastermind.

159: agreed. why my vote remains on sken. i think its a good lynch atm.

They are all possible, agreed, but I think sken town painted scum is unlikely, your view is interesting, I was thinking more along the lines of 'why bother defending someone who is town who is being accused of being scum if you are scum' it also draws unneeded attention to painted, which obviously is not ideal for scum.

especially in the early game. i do see scum defend town, but it is often towards the end of a wagon when there is little to no hope of stopping the lynch.

haha. slandaar 163. this is getting creepy. get out of my head!

Why is "crying out lurkers" on page 5 odd?

^^ this question may have been for me. i think i answered it earlier. i don't think its far enough into a game to call out lurkers and i find it is generally a scum tactic to shift focus off whatever the focus is on. its a distraction. smoke screen, what have you. nothing hugely definitive, as it is townish to want to get players to participate, but i prefer these types of call-outs to be accompanied with some sort of solution to the problem as well. maybe a list of questions. maybe a vote on the lurker, etc.

so. there it is. any questions?

[don_johnson]

Response: I certainly didn't ignore the rest of the argument, but I did address this point because it pretty strongly pointed to DJ being Mafia. As I already explained, use of the rhetoric and underhanded accusations about me being familiar with the "maiden" I'm "whiteknighting" is really scummy. Especially when a) Sken's gender tag was clearly visible and b) DJ still hasn't acknowledged point a and admitted that there was nothing suspicious about my use of "her."

a) you pretty much did ignore the rest of that early post, and b) i really don't see why this is such a sore spot for you. i was merely pointing out that you had a certain degree of famiiarity with a player who was under scrutiny. this degree of familiarity was heightened by the interaction you had with said player. i never stated this was a major point of contention, and have not since stated that it was anything more than a small piece of a larger puzzle. imo you are using this to ignore the argument of "painted defended skenvoy by attacking deas and stating thinhgs which skenvoy could have very clearly stated for herself in the early going." all gender tags are visible. it doesn't mean i pay attention to them. and saying "dj still hasn't acknolwedged" that fact is factually incorrect. it was explained here:

may be some people pay attention more to gender than i do, and not to be sexist, but i find males in the majority of my gamnes and so will often default to he/his/him until it is pointed out to me that i am talking with a woman.

moving on:

Why this is scummy: DJ is portraying me as only focusing on a minor detail, ignoring the rest of my argument. DJ is also acting as if my comments on this point were intended to argue against his case against me, rather than to point out why he's scummy.

you do seem to be focusing on a minor detail. i have responded to everything you have said. pbpa stands for point by point analysis. if it would help you understand me, i can do one to that earlier post. imo it seems unneccesary as you are the only player who doesn't get it. but whatevz. oh, and btw, "whatevz" is a clarifier. i use it to show that certain things are not a big deal. if it offends you i apologize.

Response: I don't know what PBPA means. Assuming it means go over the post again, I doubt it will change my opinion at this point. I'd rather you look back at my early original posts and try to understand them. Half of your post was saying you didn't understand various points. And you or others may disagree with some of the arguments in my response, but I certainly did a lot more than just summarize and agree. I've now decided you're much more likely to be scum than VI.

my next post will be a pbpa of that post. your earlier posts were you trying to justify why you thought deas' vote on sken was bad. i thought it was perfectly acceptable. nothing over the top awesome, but the logic was sound and the timeline worked. there was nothing scummy, imo, about deas original vote. it wasn't awesome, but it wasn't illogical. your defense of sken seemed entirely unnecessary and over the top at the time, so it drew attention to the two of you as a pair. is there a difference between attacking someones attacker(chainsaw defense) and attacking someone whose attack of another player you think is scummy? of course, but there is no way for that to be apparent. on the surface, both attacks will look the same. i have no way of knowing whether your attack was chainsaw unless one or both of you flip scum, but the way your defense of sken came about, its illogical nature, and sken's acceptance of that defense until it became a hot topic, all combine to make you both look terribad. which is why so many players are focused on you and sken.

Why this is scummy: Mischaracterizing my response as if it was in general agreeing with DJ, and completely ignoring/discounting the arguments I made in response to DJ's post rather than actually addressing them. Also, the 'whatevz' is pretty hostile and annoying, not that only scum do that, but at this point it just appears that DJ is trying to irritate, confuse, mischaracterize, and stir up trouble, rather than actually help the town find scum.

i have had my vote on skenvoy for almost the entire game. i have clearly explained my point of view. how have i "mischaracterized" your response? noone else has taken your side in this issue. doesn't that tell you something? seriously.

Response: Whew, there's a lot here. I've already addressed the confusion about the chainsaw defense: there's a big difference between attacking an attacker cause he seems like scum, and attacking an attacker as a way of defending someone else.

i agree. but there is no concrete way to tell the difference. by attacking someones attacker,you are defending them. plain and simple. hence, if skenvoy flips scum, then painted is likely scum because painted attacked skenvoy's attackers in the early game. please explain scumdj's motivation for this stance? am i bussing my scumbuddy to set up a mislynch for tomorrow? or am i scum trying to mislynch skenvoy? because in that instance what would be the scum motivation of tieing the two of you together in this fashion? think please.

To explain my point about reasons, this was a reference to an early post where I asked Slandaar to explain a post where he just quoted Sken and then voted. I thought it was suspicious not to provide an explanation and I asked him to do so.

we covered this. i understood slandaar's post. i didn't need an explanation because i saw what he saw. you either didn't, or you are pretending you didn't.

Granted fishing for a response can sometimes be a useful tactic, but in that particular instance I thought the way Slandaar did it was strange. I'm not sure what DJ means about me doing it myself: an example would be helpful.

yeah, i'd have to look back for this. i think the "fishing" conversation has been lost among the wall posts.

Why this is scummy: Mischaracterizing the chainsaw defense,

repeating the same old confusion, ignoring my responses

, and a vague accusation of me being hypocritical, inaccurately portraying me as saying any and all fishing was scummy.

please qualify the bolded. those are broad statements which carry no weight. list the "same old confusion" with numbers. i.e. please identify what i am repeating and why it is confusing. also list what you feel i have ignored. if you do so in outline form it is much easier to respond to. thanks.

Once again, a lot here. We have a vague unexplained comment on my alleged logic fails and allegedly false analogies, without pointing any out. I'll be happy to explain whatever logic or analogies are confusing people, and I do admit to my mistakes, but in general I think my reasoning's been pretty tight.

again: it doesn't send up any red flags when absolutely noone has agreed with your logic?

We have a disagreement over DV's original Sken vote. I've explained why I don't think this vote makes sense, but all in all it was partly meant to get things going, which it certainly did. And it is true that Sken has gotten a lot of the focus, though I have been attacked (by which I mean voted for and suspected) a few times.

dv's vote followed an acceptable timeline and thought process. noone ever said that vote was "good", just that it wasn't "illogical". it did get things going and it did illicit response.

Finally, the lurkers bit. I don't think I'm suspicious. I did think it was funny that early on, four of us were posting often, trying to figure out which of the four of us were scum, when we could well have all been town while the scum sat back and watched the fireworks. And yes, of course I wanted the "heat" off: I'm town, and I'd rather the town look at people who might be scum. As a townie I don't particularly want a wagon and don't want to be lynched.

i don't think you are in terrible danger of being lynched. what do you think of skenvoy?

Why this is scummy: This part isn't as bad as the rest, but DJ misportrays me as saying I'm the only one who has been attacked, and tries to make it seem like I think I'm suspicious, and like that there is something wrong with trying to a) get votes off me and b) look for scum where they might be hiding.

i disagree. you may be taking things too personally. there is nothing wrong with a) and b). timing has a lot to do with it. part of b) is doing something about it. all the players who have pointed out "lurkers" in this game have completely failed to do anything about it. i think someone called out metabot with a vote, but otherwise, other players have been saying "what about the lurkers?" and not moving there votes or asking any pertinent questions. skenvoy did this.

86: thank you monk. if sken flips town this is the most likely to be a scum vote. certainly doesn't look like a bus, so this gives me a good take on monk dependent on sken's flip. it does look like sken has been slipping under the radar and letting her white knight take the heat.

Why this is scummy: If this is intended as a reference to me, it's again a sly rhetorical way of making me look bad. Note also the contradiction between this, and the previous paragraph where the focus was on Sken. But here, Sken is slipping under the radar and I'm taking the heat, mixed-metaphorically speaking.

wha? this has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with you. this supports the idea that you may be taking things i write too personally. this post actually implies you may be town. the term white knight is being used as an identifier. not an insult. this post has to do with monk and his vote and his alignment in relation to skenvoy's flip.

While this is possible, you forget to point out in your theory that she could have received another active role, on town's side, and wanting to stay in because of it? It seems you are only focusing on her possible scum role.

hm. don't like this. why would focus on outing a town role? its called "scumhunting". not "townhunting". but whatevz.

Response: Fennin has already addressed this. This has nothing to do with outing a town role; the point is that an active town role may have made her want to stay in just as much as a scum role would. This was also pointed out earlier as well. But this is another example of DJ mischaracterizing something that someone said to make them look bad.

meh. i was looking for clarification. fennin's post was a) completely irrelevant, and b) not very clear imo. irrelevant because the argument is not and never has been about deas' original vote or his reasoning. we(except you) all agreed the reasoning was weak, but logical and not scummy. why fennin addressed this at all is beyond me. but its not something worth arguing over. i was looking for clarification. its done.

really don't want to load up this pbpa, but i guess i have to. incoming...

[don_johnson]

I can't decide if Don Johnson's post was more scummy or VI. What do you guys think? A lot of spreading confusion and misinformation there:

not posting a reason until you are asked is a very townie thing to do. it helps you guage reactions. thats kinda mafiascum 101 imo.

I have to disagree with this as a matter of strategy. It smells scummy to me, though I don't really think that by itself is a major tell. I'm not familiar with people doing that.

this is merely a disagreement of playstyle and strategy. i've been on site for a while. i see this all the time. i don't think you ever followed up in regards to this. if you did, please remind me. but if you hadn't followed up, then it couldn't have been all that much of a scumtell for you. your wording here seems to downplay it as it is.

i guess to me, slan's post was self explanatory. so painted's "wtf was that?" post reads like chainsaw defense.

So to me, it wasn't self-explanatory, though I see your point. If you're used to that kind of play then it's not that remarkable.

here we agree to disagree. or are you saying something else? it looks to me like you are accepting my interpretation based on the idea that we didn't interpret the post in question the same.

I can't tell if you're genuinely not understanding the idea of the chainsaw defense, or if you're deliberately muddying the waters. Chainsaw defense is when you argue that someone is innocent by attacking their attacker. It's different from noticing that an attacker is scummy. I have no idea if Sken is innocent or scum, one way or the other: to me, what's far more interesting and important is the bullshit arguments for Sken's guilt which make DV look scummy.

covered this. both attacks look the same on the surface. i.e. player a is attacked by player b. player c then attacks player b. both are possibilities. what matters is timing and player response. you were the only player who voiced your belief that deas vote was illogical. your argument sucked(no offense). when your argument sucks it makes the whole thing look more like a chainsaw defense than you attacking someone for a poor attack of their own. again, you are not saying what i am doing is scummy here. and you earlier agreed that my thought process was not "unremarkable" if i was used to that sort of thing. you're not being definitive here. you are saying on the one hand that my response makes some sense, and then saying you don't think i understand, but may be deliberately muddying the waters. has this trend continued? are you still confused as to how i have interpreted this event? is my definition of chainsaw defense no longer acceptable?

"fishing" is a large part of scumhunting. and is useful. the "useless post" actually generated reactions, discussions, and so "useless" does not really apply.

This is actually a valid point. It didn't turn out to be useless. By itself, not giving reasons is no big deal, but in combination with the other things DV looked scummy.

what "other things"? please list them, or quote me the posts where you earlier listed these "other things".

sken signed up. wanted out. pms were distributed. sken wanted in. is there something wrong with the timeline here? cause it makes perfect sense to me. dumb reason for a vote, but a reason nonetheless. deas is not the one making a big deal out of it.

That was my entire point. Dumb reason for a vote, and it's all we had to go on at the time, so I voted DV. It may have just been DV not understanding the situation with Sken. But looking at what's happened since then, I'm suspecting DV.

so why not let skenvoy defend herself? also, is this the same argument you made earlier? if i recall correctly, you were trying to show that deas' vote was "illogical". illogical and dumb are two completely different things. please clarify which you felt deas' vote was.

also, paint seems to be referring to sken as "she". maybe i missed the gender tag

Seriously? It's under Sken's avatar, just like all the other gender tags. I don't think you missed it, I think you're trying to stir up trouble. This is pretty shady right there.

and i think you were chainsaw defending your scumbuddy. see, we all have opinions. i explained the gender thing. so far, nothing in this post has shown dj as "scummy" as far as i can tell. you seem to be fleshing out disagreements.

You seem to be having trouble following post 45. Basically, DV seemed to think that there was something wrong with giving reasons for why I thought someone was scum based on an early suspicion. My entire point was, as you say:

this is not an equation imo. painted provided bullshit reasons. deas provided good ones. this an "apples to oranges" type of lgic here.

except that my reasons were good and DV's were bullshit.

bullshit or dumb? i think this is where our main disagreement dwells. dv's vote and reasoning followed an organic and logical thought process. it was dumb, but it

was

organic and logical. what are you arguing? "dumb" or "bullshit(which i am interpreting to mean illogical)"?

I said DV's reasons were bullshit, DV said "you gave reasons too!" and I explained that the problem was not with giving reasons, but that his reasons were bullshit.

i didn't see any backpedaling.

The backpedaling is a big part of why I suspect DV. His first vote was pretty clear that he thought Sken was guilty, but later he tried to pass it of as just part of the random voting phase.

*facepalm* his first vote was a stab in the dark. i don't believe he ever presented it as anything more. he used an organic and logical thought process to make a reasoned vote which brought us out of rvs. you jumped on it, came to skenvoy's defense. skenvoy slipped under the radar, ignored you and accepted your defense until the pressure from it reached a breaking point and was bringing suspicion on you both. then skenvoy turned on you. you both called out lurkers to get suspicion off of you, and neither of you did anything about it. why is this so difficult for you? honestly, the only reason that i can think that this would be such a big issue for you is if you were scum with skenvoy. what do you think of skenvoy? would you be willing to lynch them today?

[don_johnson]

If it was completely irrelevant, why asking for clarifications? and the way you asked for clarifications seems scummy. Trying to make me appear town hunting when that's never been the case.

if it was "scummy", why didn't you say so in the first place? you realize you have done nothing in this game, right?

meh I think Painted is town, its close, but I believe he really believes DVs vote was ridiculously bad, from there a lot of what he did/says makes sense from a townies perspective.

unfortunately i agree. skenvoyscum certainly doesn't look good for painted, but he is defending his position so ferociously it is hard no to see this. i completely get his reasoning, it is just god awful. not sure on metabot, though.

metabot: you came into the game with a lot going on between certain players and your "catch up" post seemed more like it ignored what was going on than it addressed any issues. my question to you:

who do you think is scum and why? you don't need to write me a novel.

these are our wild cards:

1. FightingShadow
2. monk
3. Internet Stranger
4. Guttersnipe
5. noramp

i'm going to go through and iso these 5 slots. pretty sure IS is the worst offender and i'm not opposed to lynching him if this continues. i have played with him before and do not remember this degree of inactivity. barring that, i still think skenvoy is our A#1 lynch for today.

[don_johnson]

i get town from guttersnipe and noramp and monk. FS has zero posts, and IS has 2.

slan, how would your reads change if we lynch skenvoy and they flip town?

[don_johnson]

unvote,vote: internet stranger

10 pages in? really? post or die.

[don_johnson]

fyi: my updated lynch pool at this time is sken, fennin, pfod, and internet stranger.

i see no reason to let IS continue to slide. if this is a rl issue then they need to replace out. otherwise i need to see some input and a vote. something original. if they continue this behavior i suggest we simply lynch them. more votes please. we can always jump back to sken/pfod if we need to. or fennin. without an organized push, IS has no incentive to join in the fun.

[don_johnson]

by my calculations, lynching a guy who hasn't posted in 10 pages is not "white knighting". its common sense. i see what you did there. don't be a smartass. inactivity for the length of time you've been exhibiting it strips you of thr right to effectively use sarcasm. funny how you are current, but still reading. i've seen this act before. your last post is nothing more than another stall. we'll talk again when i see some product.

[don_johnson]

fun facts:

sken voted pfod in the confirm stage. then random voted again(different player) after game start.

pfod voted.... internet stranger in confirm stage. then changed to another player after game start.

both made two random votes.

IS voted noone.

pfod came to skens defense. interactions between the two have been odd to say the least(don't ask, we've already discussed these connections.)

IS is still missing. if i had to call a 3 player scum team right now? you guessed it.

pfod, IS, skenvoy. seriously. someone reread this game with that scum team in mind and see if it fits.

also, any of you not voting, your vote would be better put to use on IS. think about it.

[don_johnson]

fennin is a wild card. the rest of you give me town goodness. lets stop pussyfootin around.

[don_johnson]

I actually do find the gender thing odd as well, not because of the original point (although that was increadibly weak and weird), but because DJ attacked Painted for harping on a 'minor point' in his argument, when in fact, it was only an equally small part of Painted's response. Originally, he didn't dedicate any more time or words to it than DJ did.

^^ please qualify this with quotes. compare my original point to painteds original response. then show where i brought it up again, then where painted brought it up again. and so on. maybe we can count up actual words to qualify this idea.

also, sken, would you mind voting IS? you were one of the players earlier calling out lurkers. why now(after 10 pages) are you unwilling to act in that direction? same request and question to painted.

[don_johnson]

DJ, what happens to your reads if I flip town?

i reread with your flip in mind. not sure i can say anything concrete atm, but it certainly would change a few things. painted could still be independently scummy but that read certainly weakens. J probably looks scummier. other than that it would be tough without actually doing any research. if you

are

town, thanks for the IS vote and this recent deluge of posting.

p-edit: deas, i've seen this kind of shit before. mod is under no ruling to replace a player like this. if IS doesn't replace and he doesn't contribute, then we lynch him. if he pops in with some scummy bullshit or more and more "i'll get to it" posts, we lynch him. we have to be united in that stance or he has no incentive to show up. its a policy lynch, but trust me, its a good policy. this is ridiculous.

[don_johnson]

now you're talkin'. you may be town after all.

Sken, as long as you're voting by request, would you mind voting for DJ? DJ is at the top of your scum list, so I find it odd that you're voting for someone who DJ tells you to vote for, rather than voting for DJ.

you failed to respond to my last post. i have blown all of your "logic" out of the water every time you have put hands to keyboard. noone with any sense is going to be voting for me today, and just about everyone can see that but you(and fennin. and maybe IS?) wierd how the players in those parentheses are among the lynch pool, and the other guy in the lynch pool is rereading the thread and now pointing the finger at those same guys. shocking. truly.

[don_johnson]

hey slan: what do you say to taking ole skenvoy here out of the lynch pool? we've got to start narrowing down here anyway, and she's putting up one helluva fight which is what i'd expect from a townie. painted, on the other hand, seems to have stopped trying.

[don_johnson]

if you think its not "nonsensical", then feel free to vote me. i'm not going to rewrite the thread. i've been battling with pfod for way too long. if he can't see the error in his vote then he is either scum or VI. what else has pfod done?

[don_johnson]

i think he may be, yes. his sheer post content and ferocity of his arguments points more to VI imo, but his unwillingness to admit when he's not understanding something and his misuse of terminology(chainsaw defense and misrep) points to scum. i can't be sure, but i would have no second thoughts about lynching from the pool of players i have mentioned a couple times now:

sken, pfod, IS, and fennin.

though, like i said, sken is working hard to change my opinion. the other 3 seem to content to sit and watch. that said, what do you think of IS and how long are you willing to let them act this way?

[don_johnson]

there is a difference between inactivity, lurking, and scummy. at this point IS is scummy. if his next post is "still reading," or "post soon", then we need to lynch him. if his post is "hey guys, don't have time, replace out." then we replace him. if he posts something townie, then we give him another day. thats how it works. maybe its because i have more experience on the site than most of you, but its disturbing how many of you are oblivious to the consequences of condoning this behavior. force replacing is not something that can be done. there is a post requirement of however many hours in between posts. if a player meets those requirements, they cannot be replaced. but whatevz.

[don_johnson]

I have this sneaky feeling that Don is being very opportunistic with a temporary delay. He is brandishing White Knight credentials and being all aggressive in an effort to simply look good. Hey Don, are you applying for the role of town savior, the defender of justice and leader of us plebeians? You do understand that those are generally scum traits?

lol. so your plan was to lurk fopr ten pages and then launch accusations at the first person to call you on it? seriously IS. if you can't objectively read this thread and look for scum, then you are scum.

I may not have gone through every post thoroughly yet, especially the earlier pages, but what I do see in the last few pages is Don trying to act like the ringmaster of this little circus.

scum hate it when town tries to organize.

Cracking the whip and trying to steer lynches. Rallying against lurkers and anyone that disagrees with you. You know who else does that? Scum. Scum do that. Its not the first time I seen scum doing the whole hiding in plain sight ordeal. Its the very definition of a White Knight Don and its not going to work.

no. whats "not going to work" is you ignoring an entire thread of content. i've been scumhunting since the start. posting my thoughts. asking and answering questions.

As of right now, I dont have enough voting patterns or evidence or enough examples of your interactions to convince myself that you are simply being opportunistic scum trying to make yourself look good at my expense or at the expense or unfortunate lurkers, but I will keep an eye on you. You will definitely be my first ISO and everyone else voting for me right now because of this sillyness will also get looked at.

in other words. you are scum. its not "silly" to vote a guy who has contributed nothing for ten pages. If Don isnt the scum and is just out to fluff his ego and get a bunch of attention, then one of the bandwagon monkeys will certainly be instead because as much of a crime you pretend temporary lurking might be, its actually simply an easy lynch for scum to make. Its defensible later and there wont be a challenger to verify your position.

no. heres how it works: you post something townie, people think you are town. you post something scummy, people think you are scum. you post nothing, and people can't read you or determine your alignment. you get votes, and unless you start posting townie to convince people you are not scum, then you get lynched. this post of yours contains zero content. it shows that you have not been reading, or that if you have, you are wary about commenting.

So yes, im here and im going to take advantage of this little discourse now to find me at least one scum.

no. read the thread, comment on relevant happenings or be lynched. unfortunately, for me this last post of yours is the last straw. you come up with something quick or you will be lynched.

again: lurking for ten pages and then saying "those who are calling me out must be scum" is an unacceptable and laughable strategy.

to all: do not be fooled. IS is most likely scum at this point and unless he agrees to(and follows through with) read this game and comment objectively on everything that has happened, he should be lynched. this last post is entirely reactionary.

[don_johnson]

quote tag fail:

in other words. you are scum. its not "silly" to vote a guy who has contributed nothing for ten pages.

If Don isnt the scum and is just out to fluff his ego and get a bunch of attention, then one of the bandwagon monkeys will certainly be instead because as much of a crime you pretend temporary lurking might be,

its actually simply an easy lynch for scum to make

. Its defensible later and there wont be a challenger to verify your position.

also, in regards to what i italicized, what makes an easy lynch for scum is a lazy townie. so if you are a townie. guess what? don't be lazy. you know whats lazy? not commenting on an entire thread and arguing with the guy who called you out with a sound and reasonable expectation.

p-edit: slan, could be, but pfod has faded to black and still seems to be pushing his terribad case on me. fennin is ignoring everything relevant, and IS needs to fix what he's done. all of those things are starting to look way scummier than skenvoys behavior. still a viable lynch, but certainly not the best atm.

[don_johnson]

i also laugh at the use of the term "temporary" in reference to your lurking. not posting the entire game is not "temporary". it is permanent until you change it, which as of yet, you have failed to do.

[don_johnson]

I dont mind an IS lynch but it is purely a PL, which I think in this case is acceptable...

i don't know. look at his response. he's taken a belligerent town. i.e. he's pissed that people are voting him. his lack of content is completely unnacceptable and instead of saying "hey sorry guys, i'll look through whats going on and find scum," he seems to be saying "hey guys, this recent few votes i've drawn have to be scum driven so i'm going to focus on that(omgus) instead of combing the thread for actual information." if he thinks one of his voters is scum, thats fine, but build a case, don't toss shit at the wall to see if anything sticks and test the waters for popular support before you post content. there is no evdience that IS has even read this thread, though he seems to pop up whenever someone mentions his name. i've heard it referred to as the "beetlejuice syndrome" and its scummy. if he can't come back with an objective post, then he needs to hang. not for lurking, but for being scummy. this is ridiculous and i am surprised if others don't see it. trying to say that i'm "white knighting", when i have clearly explained my stance on this issue from very early in the game is just an insult that can only be meant to bolster a weak case.

[don_johnson]

ebwop: "belligerent town" should be "belligerent tone".

[don_johnson]

So not reading the first few pages, which are usually mostly useless garbage anyways, is scummy simply because you say so?

no. its scummy because a large part of the days conversation has centered on the events therein.

Face it, you picked me as a target and youre trying to use me to look good in front of everyone else. Its opportunistic and unreasonable. What exactly happened Don, you could find anyone else to pin your ire on, so you thought a lurker would make a better scapegoat? I mean, look at you, youre already lobbing false accusations and propping up strawmen with endless impunity.

qualify the false accusations and strawmen. i am offering you a chance to participate. you are squandering it.

When did I say that lurking was some sort of grandiose purposeful scumhunting strategy?

you didn't. by virtue of your post, it seems as though that is your strategy. you are ignoring the thread.

Thats a strawman in the very sense of the world. Youre painting false pictures in an effort to increase your own ego and is simply a blatant attempt to have everyone assume that you know what the hell youre talking about.

no. "A "Straw man" argument (also called "setting up a straw man") involves mischaracterizing your opponent's position in order to present a weaker argument than they have actually given, thereby allowing you to defeat it." your argument is that one of your voters is scum because they are voting you. you are saying that they are going after an "easy" lynch. you are saying that a "lurker" is an easy lynch. so me characterizing your argument as "lurking, and then calling out voters as scum because they are voting you for lurking" is not a strawman. it is a correct interpretation of your case.

This post or die as scum drama is nonsense. Its not a valid scumhunting strategy.

what is the benefit to letting a player lurk an entire day. if we had not voted you, when were you going to participate. by virtue of the fact that you waited until players voted you to actually participate, actually hurts your chances of convincing us that you would have participated otherwise. a good townie should not deliberately hurt their reputation in that manner as it undermines any later contribution they might make. i.e. your contribution right now looks like "omg, people are voting me for lurking. they must be scum." it holds no credence. there are several viable lynches today and to say that i chose you for any other reason than your lurking and refusal to post is what is strawman.

In fact, its quite detrimental to the town, and that is my point. By drawing so much attention to this, youre not helping the town, youre hindering it by letting the scum hide.

i can buy that, but only if you can objectively look at the thread and tell me where scum is hiding. which is not what you are doing.

Is this really how you want to continue?

i have made it very clear how i want to continue. i want you to actually scumhunt. if you think i am scum,please present a coherent case. saying "dj is scum because he voted the guy who refused to participate in the game, all the while making his stances on other players well known" is not a case.

I say youre full of shit and your scumhunting strategy on day 1 is bogus and wrong. How exactly does that make anyone scum again? Scum are found by vote analysis, interactions and patterns.

and if you read the thread you will see that that is what i have been doing all fucking day. i only recently supported the cause of "getting IS to post and contribute" and i did so when the thread hit a lull.

Youre flinging poop at the lurkers and picking the first one you hit. Great job there, master scumhunter, we are certainly going to win under your brilliant guidance now.

^^^^^^^^^^STRAWMAN. you are the only "lurker" i believe i have called out in such a fashion. we have discussed the issue of calling out lurkers earlier, but you probably haven't read it. i clearly stated that there is a time and a place for calling out lurkers and even discussed with others when and why they were doing it. my calling you out is entirely consistent with those conversations. i have only said to "ynch you if you don't participate. i never EVER said we should lynch you without giving you a chance. thats a reasonable request and expectation and pretending it isn't is just silly.

Don, youre clearly white knighting. Are you planning to lead the proletariat into a communist utopia until the end game? Will anyone else get to look for scum too or are we all simply here to solely serve you and your impulsive whims?[/quote

actually, you and fennin are the only two players on my radar who have not "looked for scum". if you read the game you would know that.

[don_johnson]

@Don Johnson - Let's say that we're living in fantasy land, and five minutes from now, Skenvoy, Painted and IS all end up at L-1. (Can't happen due to numbers obviously, but roll with it for a minute.) You haven't voted yet. Who do you hammer?

IS. hands down. painted second, skenvoy third based on their recent posting.

His accusations were not great, but assuming he plays this way all the time he would know if scum go for him first more often or less often that town and from there his accusation does make sense.

^^ this would be able to be qualified. if IS brings a meta case then i'll listen. i would prefer in thread scumhunting, however.

Bettlejuice syndrome. Love it!

So you have been talking about me for three pages so when I finally show up and see that the poop has been slung my way and I say something about it, it makes me into Bettlejuice scum?

not the first time you've showed up in response to the mention of your name. i didn't day it made you scum. what makes you scum is your complete and utter lack of analysis, your seeming lack of having read this thread, and your omgus response to a completely reasonable request and expectation.

This is great, its the twisted attack tactic, everything I do from here on out will get a glossary term and be twisted out to be scummy. This is precisely how mafia should be played. Im rather quite proud of you Don.

no. you see, post something townie and you get town cred. thats how it works. you are "assuming" here. if you read the thread you would see how skenvoy's posting has helped me adjust my read on them. if you start posting analysis etc. then my read on you might change. if you continue to ignore the perfectly reasonable request and expectation of "hey IS, read the whole thread and tell us what you think", then i will not change my read on you.

Youre still opportunistic and wrong and propping up countless strawmen, but its rather entertaining as well.

you like that word... "strawman". learn what it is. you might be surprised.

"something useful please"

You realize that reality will never live up to all the "pressure" and the "hype" right? And Don is already pot committed, he went into this fiasco all in. Meaning that if I look back and find something scummy within the first few pages, which are usually garbage anyways, his hand will be forced to go against it, call me an idiot and say im wrong.

you're an idiot. i have been objective all game. you would know that if you actually read it. if you want to live in a "self fulfilling prophecy" so be it.

Additionally, im not a PBPA guy, or word analysis scumhunter. I look for voting patterns, connections and fallacies. So clearly, with all this hype and the styles that I have seen so far (like a couple wall -o- texts), the expectations have been set for me to rise from the dead like Jesus and give Judas a serious ass whooping.

or you could "look for voting patterns, connections and fallacies." i'm fine with that. i'm not fine with you doing nothing.

Either way, I will poke around and see if I notice anything useful.

that is all anyone is asking.

[don_johnson]

not a big fan of the SHIFT key.

welcome, oasis.

deadline isn't exactly looming here, but we should find consensus on our first lynch target so we can L-1, claim, discuss, etc. i have already stated my lynch pool, but i'll lay it out again:

painted, sken, IS, fennin.

i will refrain some declaring a preferred order(i think i have already stated it) as at this time we should all be willing to start compromising on a lynch. if everyone posts there top three or four, we can count up whose name(s) come up most to at least narrow our focus. those players in the pool, or replacements and those still needing to post content, should start pleading their cases. in any case, i look forward to the next few days. IS, if you have specific questions for me, just let me know. i would rather try and avoid further wallposts, sarcasm, etc. if you are town then you should be on board with all of us being as concise as possible from here on out and all of us posting our lynch pools, suspects, cases, etc. k?

[don_johnson]

My scum checklist for DJ:

Subtly pressuring the town to "compromise on a lynch" soon. Check.

ok. lets not compromise. cause that makes sense.

Rush to L-1 or lynch someone. Check.

"rush" is your word, not mine. i said, "decide on a lynch candidate and put them to L-1". thats kind of how its done. how would you suggest we proceed from here on out? we have 7 or 8 days til deadline. should we not try and organize a lynch?

Claiming to speak for the town and set the town's agenda. Check.

i suggested a method with which to proceed. if you disagree, suggest your own plan. in my experience, town wins more when they organize as opposed to charging willy nilly towards a deadline lynch. but whatevz. apparently IS and deltawave agree with you here. you can't all be scum, can you?

Saying disagreement with him is scummy ("if you're town you should be on board"). Check.

if you're town, organizing before deadline is a good thing. attempting to sow confusion and chaos is scummy. like i said, if you have a better plan you are free to post it.

As IS pointed out, trying for the lurker policy lynch as an easy lynch with plausible deniability. Check.

ok. i am now going to lurk for ten pages.

[don_johnson]

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=17666

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p3561519

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p3570882

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p3577063

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p3577788

[don_johnson]

Well, there is no other way for her to ask Painted to stop since

scum can only communicate at night

??

The fact that Deas is all paranoid and is completely changing his playstyle after I put the spotlight on him clearly screams scum to me.

^^

[don_johnson]

hmm, im still around. The first few pages are meaningless garbage anyways, but ill read up on all the incessant one liners and see if something fruitful comes up during the read.

I will at least say something later today, even if its just to deride somebody for being stupid.

[don_johnson]

Im still reading. Dont be a lurker hunting hero IS, being a White Knight wont get you anywhere. I will find you some scum soon enough, just be patient.

[don_johnson]

yeah. IS could be scum because he did nothing for 10 pages.

then someone said : "hey IS, do something, pleas".

and he did nothing.

then someone else said "hey IS, do something, please."

and he said "yeah, i'll read up, don't you worry."

and he did nothing.

and then someone said "hey IS, hows about you do something."

and he said, "yeah, i'm working on it."

and then he did nothing.

and then someone said "fuck this. if he's not going to do anything, lets vote him."

and then he did nothing.

and then others voted him.

and then he said "oh, the guy who voted me must be scum."

and then that guy lurked.

and then he said "oh, deas must be scum because he has changed his playstyle as soon as i said he was scum.

and then he did nothing.

in other words: he has done nothing., he has not analyzed the entire first half of this thread. he has done ZERO scumhunting in the first ten pages. he has launched an a) OMGUS attack against the one townie who pushed him hard enough to contribute(completely ignoring that townies first ten pages of contribution), and b) launched this irrational diversionary attack on deasvail(still completely ignoring the entire first half of the thread.)

but whatevz. if you assholes want to put your eggs in his basket. go right ahead. not lynching a scummy player because they

always act scummy

, not only sets town up to follow a scumbag, but it also encourages the behavior which entirely shifts the entire site in favor of scum.


IS is the correct lynch today. hands down. sort out his partners on reread after a night of actions.

[don_johnson]

Wait, DJ, are you saying I was attacking IS?

no.

Wait, DJ, are you saying I was attacking IS?

Funny you mention that Deas:

• Deas never attacked me first like DJ claims.

dj didn't claim that.

I did analyze the first 10 pages and said they were full of garbage.

^^ cop out. the rest of us didn't think so.

In fact, I first started noticing Deas because of the stupid meta argument Deas was trying to lynch Sken with WAS in the first 10 pages. [/list]

LOL. are you kidding? you mean the "meta" argument that we alll agreed was irrelevant? the one that deas used to justify his vote on page 2(or was it 3)? that meaningless vote that sken and pfod completely overreacted about? that vote? you're funny. i noticed deas then, too. seemed like a perfectly reasonable reason for a vote at that stage of the game.

DJ is conveniently ignoring that.

no. dj addressed that in extreme detail. do you need me to repost that?

So what is it going to be? Im a lurker?

check.

I only counterattack or am I trying some sort of diversionary tactic?

check and check.

Youre trying to accuse me of doing everything at once.

no, but you'd certainly like to make it seem that way.

Not only that, DJ's whole argument just screams of meta nonsense just from what Painted mis-characterized about me. So is this how the game works, Painted pulls shit out of his ass and Gutter (Who hasnt done shit and yet DJ and everyone else ignores) and DJ think is suddenly gospel handed down by the pope.

?? not following you. someone said you always act like scum and seemed to be using it as justification to not lynch you. i think thats bad form.

DJ totally and completely full of shit. That whole little timeline of his is full of lies.

please show where. and please produce multiple examples. "full of lies" implies more than one mistake.

he contradicts himself in the very same post.

shouldn't be hard to show where then?are you actually going to qualify your statements?

Youre a silly silly man DJ. Youre not hunting for scum, youre persecuting IS. Dont forget that you still came after me in a false pretense of "lurker hunting" in the first place.

saying "hey lurker, post or die," is not coming after you "under false pretense."

Are you jealous of something? Once Deas flips scum, youll see that I was right all along. Then you and your buddy Gutterboy are going to look so silly buddying up so blatantly like that.

i doubt deas would flip scum. if he is, then he's playing the "confused townie" near perfectly.

so, anytime on that evidence. just cut and paste the ""lies" and the "contradiction." kthnxbye

[don_johnson]

deas' original vote was a

"hey guys, this is kind of a serious vote for some wierd meta reasons, not sure if its right, but it could mean sken is scum..."

and pfod and IS seem to be trying to portray it as:

"ZOMG! GUYS I FOUND FREAKING SCUM ON PAGE 2! SKENVOY IS 100% SCUM DUE TO THIS AMAZINGLY ACCURATE META REASON!"

for those of us who actually read the thread, we remember that it didn't go down like that. the "ZOMG!" is a much better characterization of the response that vote generated.

seriously. am i the only one paying attention?

slandaar, deasvail, dj, guttersnipe, noramp, [J] << this is my town voting block. come on guys. what do ya say? lets make some noise. IS trying to convince you that players cooperating with each other is "cultist" is scummy scummy bullshit. we need to work together to win.

we have a nice group of scum or VI in Deltawave, IS, PfoD, Skenvoy, Fennin. << thats our lynch pool and i say we start with IS. Metabot and Outskirts can be wildcards for now. we can wait and see where their votes fall. if anyone needs me to pbpa PfoD's pathetic case against me, just let me know.

[don_johnson]

Thats why he was gunning from me from the start, before he used "lurking" as an excuse.

please expand on this. it makes no sense. i didn't have much to do with you until you failed multiple times to produce on content you were promising us. it was then that i called you out as a "lurker". and now your "lurking" is a small part of the case against you. which you conveniently ignored with that last post. you are all accusations and zero substance to back it up.

IS is my main suspect. i find it more likely that he will flip scum than

either

painted or skenvoy.

[don_johnson]

and still, IS fails to produce evidence to back his claims.

here's a rundown:

dj: "hey guys, IS is scum because he lurked, omgused, built a case ignoring the first half of the thread and is trying to misrep what actually happened in regards to the DV/Pfod fiasco."

IS: "LIES! ALL LIES! AND CONTRADICTION!"

dj: "ok where are the lies and the contradiction?"

IS: "Don't be bullied by dj. DV is scum."

notice the lack of evidence. why is this so hard for you people.

PfOD: if you look through past games of mine you will find some wonderful examples of towns working together. joining a town voting block isn't an "auto-clear", its just a way of grouping players according to reads. and yeah, i find the players who are using logical arguments to be more townie than others. whether or not they agree with me is simply a natural by-product of the fact that they don't have their heads up their asses.

slan: i'll lynch DW, too, but i'd prefer IS as he is completely dodgin accountability here. first, he's trying to sweep his lurking under the rug, second he's trying to sweep his his terrible posting under the rug. get on board. like i said, we sort out his partners tomorrow.

DV: i have made good points against IS. join the wagon. we don't lynch if we can't agree. compromise is the only way. its better if we compromise earlier than later. the idea that DW and pfod are trying to push that that is somehow anti-town is ludicrous. town wins when it works together. bumbling toward a lynch gives scum the upper hand. IS spewing about this "cult" bullshit is whats anti-town. he's trying to prevent town from cooperating. do you really think there isn't more than one scum in the group i earlier claimed to be "scum or VI"? do you think there is more than one scuk in the "voting block" i've created? separating town into groups of "scummy" and "not scummy" increases our chances of hitting scum, no? its not an odd tactic and it has served me well in the past. it is not beneficial to scum.

[don_johnson]

DV: i'll compromise and vote Deltawave if necessary, but i want to know what you think of IS and the points i've made against him. and i will only compromise if necessary. if i can lynch my top suspect without you, then i will. but yeah, DW is scummy.

DW: i am not compelled by slan's case. but i understand what he's saying. i earlier referred to it as "beetlejuice syndrome." IS did the same shit imo. i don't really need that case to think you are scummy though. i am unimpressed with the inorganic nature of your scumhunting and the fact that you agreed with PfoD's horrible case on me is all i need. if you want to turn this around, tell me what you think of IS and the points i have brought up and his lack of response.

p-edit: oh, i see. he has issued a small response.

In the meantime, he continues to claim that my voting for Deas was an OMGUS vote, which is clearly a LIE he continues to repeat.

a) you said there were "multiple lies". please list more than one.

b) that isn't a lie. thats not what i said. your vote on

me

was omgus. your vote on DV was insubstantial in that it ignored the entire game and focused on one detail(a detail which i don't disagree with, but given the whole of his play, i do not believe he is scum. unless he's your buddy. .)

c) please address the contradiction now.

for someone who doesn't want me to lead, it certainly seems as though you need me to hold your hand through this entire process.

[don_johnson]

IS: you made a huge omgus attack against me.

I may not have gone through every post thoroughly yet, especially the earlier pages, but what I do see in the last few pages is Don trying to act like the ringmaster of this little circus. Cracking the whip and trying to steer lynches. Rallying against lurkers and anyone that disagrees with you. You know who else does that? Scum. Scum do that. Its not the first time I seen scum doing the whole hiding in plain sight ordeal. Its the very definition of a White Knight Don and its not going to work.

this is in response to me voting you for lurking and not contributing. it basically says, "dj is targeting me because i am lurking and he is trying to organize the town. scum do that too." in other words "oh my god, dj sucks, because he voted me and tried to convince others to vote me." its the definition of an omgus attack. you even cover in the same post that you haven't read the entire thread, which means you are not basing your attack on me on your reads, but on this sole point.

you have alluded to :

countless strawmen

Picking me out from the lurkers was a lie, he was already targeting me earlier in the game and now lurker hunting is a convenient excuse.

By already only going after people that come after you DJ, youre already giving the scum just that.

That whole little timeline of his is full of lies. Hell, he contradicts himself in the very same post.

you never produced the "countless strawmen"

where did i target you in the early game and why?

when did skenvoy "come after me"?

where are the "lies"? you have nnamed one, which is apparently a misunderstanding. you didn't vote me, you just omgus attackjed me. not much difference imo. still, even if you count it as a "lie" it is only one. you stated "multiple".

you have yet to produce the "contradiction."

continue with your ad hom deflection tactics. they seem to have everyone fooled.

in regards to beetlejuice syndrome:

page 7: IS posts to say he wasn't prodded. which means he saw the votecount post which stated he was prodded. thats his first post. aside from "/confirm"

post 211, dj calls out IS among the "wildcards". IS posts 217 "i'm still around".

dj votes IS in 240: "lurker, please post." 244, dj reiterates. 245: IS posts for the third time.

"BEETLEJUICE! BEETLEJUICE! BEETLEJUICE!"

[don_johnson]

slandaar: can you re-present the case on DW?

the only townpoints i have for DW is his recognition of the deadline extension rule, but i am not sure if his request is anything more than null. so meh.

fennin has dissappeared, he needs to return and comment.

IS: what do you think of Fennin? lets say hypopthetically that someone claims daycop and tells you deas is town. who is your second pick?

DV: do you think painted/sken are partners? would one's flip give you any insight into the others alignment?

[don_johnson]

nah.

unvote, vote: deltawave

slan's last bit is exactly what i had been thinking. he had me worried with the "lurking" part, but when you scan through DW's iso you can see it plain as day. he's just casting suspicion around and not backing any of it up. he's a good compromise. please note how IS dismisses the

entire

exchange, kind of like how he dismissed the entire first ten pages. but whatevz. Delta is probscum here. seriously, iso him.

[don_johnson]

oh look. i think that was another post by IS which completely ignored the fact that he's brought charges against another player and has failed to provide evidence. he also seems to be assigning blame to an argument for dampening others interest in the game. he also seems to continue to do nothing but stick to his DV case and not comment anything substantial about anything else.

sken, deas, and painted: wtf? can we start compromising on a lynch here? have you guys looked at DW? have you read his iso and watched the inorganic growth of his suspicions?

painted: do you need me to pbpa your "case" that DW sheeped?

[don_johnson]

no ramp:

i asked for everyone to post their top few suspects, and that from those posts we could then determine who w e should lynch. noone wanted to do that. then some people tried to call me scummy for suggesting that. i have been working to lynch my top scumspects. i am willing to compromise. noone here seems to be willing to put aside personal issues and start to work together. you don't want to lynch IS? fine. you don't want to lynch DW? fine.do you want to lynch fennin? i think thats another fine compromise. if you don't want to do it, then i guess we're back to square one. how do you suggest that we, as a town, move forward. if we don't reach consensus this day will continue to drag and nothing will be accomplished and by the time we're done, scum will have had a chance to hide themselves nicely in between the myriad divisions we have allowed to happen. if we pick a couple candidates, and then force everyone to take a stand on those few candidates, we can learn alot more than if we just walk around willy nilly pointing fingers at each other and not agreeing to compromise. it is annoying to be trying so hard while so many of you are sitting around doing nothing.

simple answer: no ramp, who do you want to lynch and why? make a case. make it concise. make it readable, and then allow your suspect to respond.

everyone else: are we satisfied all pursuing our top suspects? is anyone willing to produce a grouping of lynch candidates? when i suggested it, i was told i was scummy. when DV suggested it, he was largely ignored. any thoughts?

[don_johnson]

i linked to it earlier, but i played in the first ever game with scum neighbors(both neighbors were scum with daytalk). its a confusing role. its a gamblers fallacy to abide by the "advice" on the wiki, however, the fact that no ramp claimed and then accused his neighbor with that logic means that no ramp is the most likely town of the neighbors. i think IS is trying to bully people away from organizing. i have not declared myself a dictator of any sort. i have offered a couple ideas as to how we can organize and IS has responded with ad hom and fear mongering and has provided zero evidence to support his opinions. he has repeatedly posted while conveniently ignoring my requests for evidence to support his claims against me, and is tunneling while the "deas case builds", but has yet to actually add to his original case as far as i can tell. so i guess my question is, how has the case progressed? what is the new evidence against DV?

no ramp: i agree that IS is a great lynch, but i don't want to lynch based on a gamblers fallacy. i think i have already made the case against how he has played the game, so i think its a safe place to start. Painted/sken has been a clusterfuck that could easily be 2 VI. one of them could also easily be IS' partner(or one of if theres more). in any case, my most solid read is on IS. second is probably Delta. Fennin pulls in third, and his recent dissappearing act only strengthens the case against him. i think painted/sken will be much easier to sort out after an IS lynch and a round of night actions.

unvote, vote IS

[don_johnson]

i do not understand the question. anyone

can

be a VI. i use the word to describe people who use bad logic, drop scumtells, but have a townie pm. its kind of a generic term for "scummy townie" imo. which is why i would rather sort them out after IS, who has been much more subtly scummy and has been waging psychological warfare against all players not named don_johnson. "fearmongering" and "ad hom" are "tactics". "bad logic" is more a trait. that said, the aforementioned "tactics" could certainly be exhibited by a VI personality, but IS strikes me as an intelligent person. and intelligent players don't use those "tactics" unless they are trying to accomplish something, and i don't see the town motivation for IS to be using those tactics because he has used them as a smokescreen to relegate his lurking, ignorance of large portions of the thread, and unsubstantiated attacks to the shadows. make sense?

[don_johnson]

pfod: why are you ignoring the case on IS and only focusing on the "one neighbor is probscum" comment? that is a strawman. why is outing the nieghborhood anti-town? i find it to be incredibly pro-town.

[don_johnson]

stop rolefishing. neighbors can have abilities in addition to being neighbors. i hav seen neighbor docs, neighbor cops, neighbor 1 shot vigs, etc. there is no reason to discuss roles. anything is possible as long as it fits into the mini-normal ruleset. the wiki used to state that neighbors were players with out of thread communication who didn't know each others alignments. that has been amended since the game i linked to earlier where we had scumneighbors. the possibilities are irrelevant at this time. what you should be addressing is the case on IS, or the case on DV, or the case on DW, or the case on sken, or the case DW claims exists on you but can't produce, or the case on slandaar, etc. at this point we are not really doing ourselves any favors by continuing with irrelevant conversations. deadline or no, we need to come a lynch consensus. once we have an L-1 and a roleclaim, then we can discuss roles etc. seriously, try and see this game from a replacements pov. if someone has to replce in to this game somewhere down the line, its going to be a daunting task. we have plenty of info to sift through. our priority now should be lynching. not being stupid and not being unable to understand the wiki or the rules of this game. this is not the newbie forum and i am not sure why they are letting new players into these games.

[don_johnson]

painted: exactly how much experience do you have? and is english your first language? you seem to be very slow on the uptake.

noramp: painted is playing like VI through and through most out of all of our candidates.

[don_johnson]

you aren't really doing anything but asking questions that seem to be irrelevant to the matters at hand. in other words, you seem to be distracting from actual discussion. it was pretty obvious what noramp meant, and now you claim to understand exactly what he meant. so what is the issue?

why is it anti-town to out a "neighborhood"?

is it "scummy"? if so, what is the scum advantage to scumnoramp outing the neighborhood? it just doesn't make any sense. noramp is obviously most likely to be town of all the neighbors. the only downside i see is if scum knows the neighborhood is town and they can try to play the angle of "one neighbor must be scum" and try to lynch the neighborhood. problem with that is only if town is stupid enough to follow that lead. are you that stupid? is that why it worries you?


sorry for the insults, but your playstyle is incredibly annoying. what do you think of the case on IS and his COMPLETE AND TOTAL LACK OF RESPONSE TO IT.

[don_johnson]

asking someone to reveal information about their role is a form of rolefishing and it serves no purpose but to give more information to scum.

pfod: do you believe that there is a chance that noramp is lying about the neighborhood and its occupants? really?

And the thing is, because we have no way of knowing, I don't believe this should put any more suspicion on the neighbours simply because they're neighbours.

^^ this is exactly the point.

DV: can you please find where IS pointed out the "multiple lies" he states i have been posting? can you also find where IS posted about the "contradiction" he claimed to have seen in my post? thats the case on IS: slinging shit with ZERO evidence.

pfod: is noramp at L-1? if its anti-town for him to claim his role, why are you asking him to reveal information about his role? don't you think that it is better to keep that info quiet? what if he is neighbordoc? then you just succeeded in outing a doc? is that going to be good for town? maybe you should just stop inquiring about his "role" and accept the fact that you are an idiot:

noramp claimed neighbor with 2 other players on day 1. he's obviously telling the truth.

pfod: what "issues" did i ignore again? i like your little post, but it seems to gloss over the fact that i did address the issues at hand. ANY TIME YOU WANT TO ANSWER MY QUESTION ABOUT YOUR EXPERIENCE, FEEL FREE.

[don_johnson]

pfod: by asking him to clarify his statement, you run the risk of outing more information regarding his actual role. i am not misrepresenting you. he claimed neighbor and said it wasn't his "role". you voted him(for god knows why), and then asked him to clarify his statement. it was pretty damn obvious what he meant and there was no reason for him to clarify it, so for you to ask him about it is useless, ignorant, and anti-town.

unvote, vote: pfod

now you are really in the lead. thanks for ignoring my response and not answering my previous question. you and IS are like peas in a pod. you use your ill tempers as smokescreens for your horrible play.

[don_johnson]

Also, there's a pattern in what DJ is doing: I actually think he's a really talented scum. For instance, earlier when I argued DV was scum, he responded by attacking me, but completely ignored the actual argument against DV. Instead, he argued I was scum because I was supposedly defending Sken by attacking DV.

nope. i looked at the argument against DV and fully explained how i felt about it. i didn't ignore anything. please prove that i ignored something. quote my posts where i ignore something. you are doing what IS does, making accusations and not backing them up with evidence.

Now, I'm arguing Noramp is scum, and instead of responding to that at all, he's arguing I'm scum for pressing Noramp, ignoring the actual substance of the argument.

there is no substance to the argument. noramp outed a neighborhood which is a null tell at best(my personal belief is its a town move). you are pressing him for info regarding his role. what is the case on noramp? that he outed the neighborhood? is that what makes him scum? if the case is bigger, please post it with numbers next to your points and then quote things to back up your points.

The tactic here seems to be to attack someone else's attack, twisting it around to make it look like they're the scummy ones. Earlier, he kept saying I was defending Sken, when I carefully explained several times that I had no opinion of Sken. Now, he keeps saying I was trying to get Noramp to reveal his role, when I actually voted him for doing so and said it was scummy.

i didn't say you were trying to get him to reveal his role. i said you were asking irrelevant questions which could lead to him revealing more info about his role. learn to read. it works better than making shit up in your head. your vote was stupid because you have failed to show any scum motivation for noramp to out the neighborhood. if you think noramp was scum, explain why outing the neighborhood helps the scum team when he himself is suggesting scum exists in said neighborhood? the best defense you will be able to muster is wifom. because when you use your head you will see that noramps actions make him the most likely town out of the neighborhood. this harks back to the question of mine which you HAVE COMPLETELY IGNORED AND DODGED. HOW MUCH EXPERIENCE DO YOU HAVE?

If I had wanted Noramp to reveal more, why would I say that it was really scummy to reveal and vote him when he did?

what kinbd of answer did you expect from your question? here are some possible answers:

"gee, pfod, i am a neighbor, but i am also a doctor." doc outed.

"gee pfod, i am a neighbor, but i am also a cop." cop outed

"gee pfod, i am a neighbor, but i also have another role that i would like to keep secret." soft claim, scum knows he has power.

could he answer it in such a way to not reveal any info? sure. could he answer the question in a way so as to lie and make scum think he has power thereby drawing a nightkill and helping town? sure. but the potential for outing a power role is there. which is why you should have klept your mouth shut. you say you are not a newb, but you play like you have no idea how this game works.

[don_johnson]

mod: requesting an extension.

unvote

i would much rather see IS lynched today.

vote: IS

[don_johnson]

you guys realize that pfod went into self preservation mode instead of, you know, like claiming or something.

if it ain't IS, then

unvote, vote pfod

no lynch is terrible. which agai9n, if pfod is town, harkens back to the fact that he is a newb with not enough experience to be playing with the big boys. when you guys make up your minds let me know. i'll put my vote where its needed. til then, the king VI can stay in the lead.

[don_johnson]

here's the deal:

pfod is most likely town.

you guys can't seem to make up your minds.

pfod claimed vanilla. so if we lynch him, at least its safe. a vanilla claim makes little sense, but the claim is late, and he seems to be pushing for a no lynch(which is terrible play), instead of pushing for a scum lynch. so he may be scum. however, scum would more likely have tried to claim a power role(although newb scum sometimes fear this maneuvre), and his logic is awful(another maybe newb trait), and clearly has no idea what proper mafiascum strategy is. so i don't know. he certainly could be scum, but he's coming off as way more VI than scum imo. but lynching CG at random, or no lynching is assanine, and going into night phase without a lynch simply allows scum to manipulate the game more. day 1

needs

a lynch. its standard strategy.

i would much rather lynch players who are more likely scum.

IS has still not made a case, responded to the points i brought up about what he

did

say, and continues to toss ad hom at me in hopes of discrediting what i am saying to all of you. i am not trrying to lead you. i am trying to find a compromise for lynch. lynching on day 1 is a necessity. we have a claimed vanilla who has applied horrible logic to cases. its an okay lynch. if you have someone else who's better, speak now, but realize that all of us continuing to follow our own paths is what scum wants. a no lynch is just as good for scum as a mislynch. a "quick deadline lynch" may be even better. and that is what they are going to get if we don't pull our heads out of our asses.

you guys are all idiots. pick a fucking lynch. we're into 30+ pages. that's plenty of info.

newbs: please play a few games in the newbie forum before you come here. regardless of site rules, you guys negatively effect my win-loss ratio, which, as you can see is closing in on .500 as town. i am extremely proud of that statistic, especially since the game of mafia is naturally tilted towards scum wins.

pfod: "enough" is a dodge. not an answer.

[don_johnson]

So DJ, Painted is now town? The same Painted you the under the bus like a page ago? The same Painted that you blatantly bandwagon jumped on? The same Painted youre still voting for from your LAST post? Just how many times do you plan to switch your vote around anyways? Until it stops becoming convenient?

i have been pretty clear from the get go on my stance on pfod. he is playing like VI. VI has the chance of being scum due to poor use of logic and ignorance of basic playing standards. i have clearly explained why i am voting him. "bandwagoning" is a poor accusation. you cannot lynch without a bandwagon, and i have clearly explained my stance on no lynch vs. lynch on day 1.

You realize that first paragraph of yours is full of confusing garbage, right? Are you being deliberate with this? To paraphrase: "He may be town, but he may be scum, we could lynch him, but maybe not, so lets lynch him anyways".

i'll try to clear it up. he's playing terrible if he's town. he may be scum. he's a claimed vanilla which makes him the "best" mislynch available atm. if he's scum, then he's probably a good scum lynch as we can draw a decent amount of info from his lynch as to who his partners may be. i would rather lynch my top suspects, but since when i do that, i am being accused of trying to "lead" the town, i am willing to compromise and lynch someone who others agree is scummy.

Then of course you go on another silly tirade about how im the most evil person to ever grace the pages of this game.

thanks for putting words in my mouth, but no. thats not what i said at all.

Finally you top it off by berating the "newbs" and politicking about how youre going to lead them to victory with your glorious .500 record. DJ, you couldnt possibly be any more transparent. Stop trying to be our savior here. You desperate NEED control of this game. Why? Do you want to steer lynch targets away from scum?

again, you are putting words in my mouth, and you are using FEAR MONGERING to attempt to discredit me.

Notice what youre doing here DJ. Youre essentially going off on all sorts of rhetoric, yet you made no case either way to whether Painted should be spared or not.

i thought i was clear. what is confusing you?

Hell, at this point youre trying to make it sound like youre happy with any lynch, but you would look better if it was me.

no. i have clearly stated that there are players i would rather not lynch. i would, however, rather lynch than no lynch.

Like "Well, if you lynch Painted anyways, oh shucks". Just how many croonies are you trying to protect here DJ? Are you ok with letting Painted hang because he went after Noramp?

no. i'm ok letting pfod hang for his play throughout the entire day, which i have discussed, documented, and shown evidence of while i have been participating all day(minus my "fuck you, IS, i'm gonna lurk" few pages).

Speaking of ignoring, I accuse you of possibly being ina league with Deas and you choose to steamroll right through it without a thought. Is that not suspicious now?

no. i am not suspicious of myself. thats a stupid question. why do you think i am in league with Deas? because I disagreed with pfod's defense of sken? because i haven't voted him? please present a case if you want to be taken seriously. if you think i am in league with Deas, why are you not trying to lynch me? you are attacking Deas(obviously the weaker player). try and lynch me if you think i am scum.

[don_johnson]

DJ:
1) How is Painted playing horribly? How is he so detrimental to the town as you say?
2) And the whole newb things seems it could be a way to pretend that you're town- trying to come across as sincere townie perhaps?
3) By the way DJ, you did fail to mention your scum record, so you shouldn't be so mean to us newbs.

i have shown why pfod's play is horrible. if you agree with him, then you are inexperienced. it takes time to understand the

why

of certain adhered to standards. i don't think i can explain everything to you in one post. but a for instance: NO LYNCH ON DAY 1 IS BAD FOR TOWN. << this is a generally accepted principle as it allows scum the choice of who dies first. does a mislynch help scum on day 1? numbers wise, yes. but by generating a mislynch scum may have to expose themselves to good scumhunters, town pr's, etc. a no lynch leaves no information. it allows scum to pick their nk and play day 2 on sheer wifom principles if they want. it places town in a much more difficult situation than a mislynch on a vanilla townie. seriously, browse the discussion forums for more info, and if you find anything to the contrary, feel free to start your own discussion thread and pm me so we can talk out of game regarding basic strategies. pfod, also did not claim his role when his lynch was imminent(or so he thought). this is also generally accepted as bad for town. no, he wasn't at L-1, but he understood the rules enough to say that he thought he was being lynched. by placing someone else(at random i might add, unless there was a case on CG) in danger ofr being lynched, he sets up scum to quick lynch a possibile power role. it was poor play. as a vanilla townie he should have fought tooth and nail(which i think he did), but should have ultimately accepted his fate on the offchance that IS or CG were power roles.(i think those were the two who were going to be placed at L-tie.) any scum could have swept in with the "lynch is better than no lynch" strategy which is generally accepted thought, and nailed either one of those players stuck in a tie if they were town. they also could have bussed their vanilla partner for uber town cred if they were scum. the move was simply anti-town as most of the possible outcomes imo wwould be more beneficial to the scum team than to the town. but seriously, this stuff belongs in a discussion thread.

2) sure, you could see it that way, but in this game, at some point you have to start thinking for yourself. do you think thats what that statement was, or do you think it is an outcome of the general frustration i am experiencing in this game?

3) there is no motivation for me to mention my scum record whether i am town or scum. why would i mention it as scum? why would i mention it as town. the answer to both of those questions is : it makes no sense to mention it. i post it for my own record and rarely use it for anything but. i believe i was lynched on day 1 as a VT when trying to build a rational case based on my numbers to show that someone else was probably scum, but i don't remember which game so i don't think i can link. the record is there for all to see anyway. a 75% win ratio as scum is pretty average imo. it is my town record which i am proud of. if you want to meta me, feel free. generally when i am town, i am lauded as obvtown and especially recently when i have been on a pretty good streak. i don't always win(as evidenced by my record) but i would say that if you took ouit the first year of my career on this site and maybe the first six months of my second, i would probably have a winning record. it is my opinion that anyone can play scum, but that experience is helpful for townies. it is only through many experiences that one can learn how to differentiate between town and scum play. my cases against pfod and IS have been largely based on their use of "smokescreens" to cover up their actual content and play. and like i said, pfod comes across a bit more genuine(which is why i attribute the newb title to him) whereas IS seems much more calculated in his effort to discredit me through underhanded means. i have repeatedly pointed to his statements about "muiltiple lies" and a "contradiction" and he has avoided addressing those for almost ten pages now. and he won't address them, because he knows he inflated the numbers of my "offenses" to make his case stronger. he is just more experienced and therefore more likely to be scum than bad town imo.

slan: DW has a good point. if you are willing to compromise on IS, why aren't you moving your vote there? and what happened to fennin? did we miss a post?

[don_johnson]

ok. i didn't realize CG replaced fennin.

slan: why not IS? with me, you, no ramp, and guttersnipe thats four. should be enough to at least place IS in the lead in case this goes south. DW isn't gathering any steam.

[don_johnson]

I don't understand why Painted should have accepted his fate rather than lynch a possible power role because if he's town he knows he is and sees CG for example as possible/likely scum so he should argue that someone else should be lynched instead. What about the offchance that they are scum? (or do you know that they are town?)

i do not know who is town besides myself. that question is dumb. learn to play the game and you would understand this. a VT is a better mislynch than a doc or cop or watcher or tracker or mason, etc. if we are in a position such as what we were in, a smart VT is not going to set scum up to quicklynch

anyone

. that would be arrogant and egotistical and places your own needs above the needs of town. he is not a good enough player to be so brazen and he continues to dodge the question of "how much experience do you have?" which imo, means he either has little(and is therefore more likely VI) or is scum, because a good townie would not dodge that question. is there an offchance that pfod's read is correct and that CG is scum? maybe. but placing CG in a tie with IS means that he's placing two players in danger of a lynch over himself. what do you think the odds of both those players being scum are? do you think it is smarter to put two other players at risk than to roll over and take a lynch when you know 100% that you are not town power? its hugely irresponsible, and even moreso without claiming yourself to at least give the rest of us perspective as to the implications. but whatever. i feel like i'm talking to a wall with you guys.

[don_johnson]

Deas is right. DJ is completely patronizing the town. As if he was older brother DJ that will kick your ass if you dont listen to him. DJ is saying that Painted didnt play the way he does, as if somehow DJ represents the standard that all must play as or else they shall be branded as heretic scum. Sounds just like the Inquisition, which now that I mention it, seems to be what DJ is desperately trying to employ here.

^^ fearmongering and ad hom.

Whether Painted claimed or not or whatever conspiracy theory scenarios DJ wants to come up with are irrelevant.

of course, pfod's play is irrelevant. that makes perfect sense.[/sarcasm]

So essentially the entire basis of voting for me is that I dont want to get into a PBPA war with you? When has anyone ever seen me one of those silly posts? They are lame and they allow facts to get lost in the shuffle.

no. the basis of voting you is far greater. you are choosing to ignore it. thats fine.

I LOVE #2, where DJ forcibly tells Deas to think for himself, but only as long as you agree with DJ. The next paragraph of his totally demeans his second statement. Doubletalk much there, DJ?

please explain. this is a bit non-sequitur to me. deas needs to think for himself, but that doesn't mean he should ignore general accepted theory. IS, do you think no lynch is good on day 1?

ok. i didn't realize CG replaced fennin.

slan: why not IS? with me, you, no ramp, and guttersnipe thats four. should be enough to at least place IS in the lead in case this goes south. DW isn't gathering any steam.

Is this not PRECISELY the kind of behavior that im talking about?!? DJ swears up and down that he isnt some sort of dictator, yet here he is rallying his troops into action. DJ needs to go, this is scummy type behavior and it isnt healthy for the town. If any of Noramp, DJ, Gutter and now Slan (Apparently DJ's army) are scum, they can easily hide behind all the bravado and aggressiveness. The town will never stand a chance being all factioned out like this.

^^ more fear mongering. IS seems distressed that players want to work together.

At this point Deas is all tongue-in-cheek with the distancing to DJ now and DJ just continues to ignore Deas, so im just going to park my vote on DJ now.

i just addressed a rather long post to Deas. how is that "ignoring"? let me know if you have any specific questions you would like answered.

Hey DJ, are you saying that Painted should commit lynch suicide for the good of the town?

nope. thats not what i said at all.

[don_johnson]

dv: October 07, 2011
sken: October 18, 2011
dw: August 31, 2011
pfod: November 02, 2011

^^ these four seem to think this guy:

IS: April 07, 2002

is town. yet IS has not presented a case, has spent the entire time he's bothered to grace us with his presence launching fear mongering and ad hom attacks. made one point about DV changing his playstyle while ignoring the context of when that change of playstyle occurred, and has failed to respond to arguments brought against him, and has failed to provide any supporting evidence for claims he has made.

slan: August 03, 2011
noramp: May 12, 2009
gutter: October 25, 2011

^^ these three seem to jive with what this guy:

don_johnson December 04, 2008

is laying down. so atm, it looks like common sense is outnumbered.

mod: can we get a current votecount and playerlist? any chance you can nix the () for previous votes so its a bit less to look at? players who want to use VCA can always go back and get that info themselves. thanks.

DJ, the problem I see is that you're sticking to the whole "no lynch is bad" thing without actually considering the situation.

Place yourself in Painted's situation assuming that he's town. He doesn't want a mislynch so thinks that a no lynch would be better, failing to consider the likelihood of him being lynched anyway the next day, with nothing but night-kill WIFOM to ponder.

i agree that a complete newb would think that way. which is why my vote is not on pfod atm and pfod has never really been my top choice. his play screams newb/VI. i have well documented how i feel about him. just because you(a newb) agree with his stance does not give it any logical credence. lets pretend that CG is doc. now VT pfod places docCG in danger of being quicklynched without being able to claim his role or defend himself. does that sound like a good plan? sure, it would be great if CG was scum, but pfod (if hes VT) has no way of knowing that, and his experience level would dictate that his reads are probably not awesome. do you think pfod is the best scumhunter to ever play the game? seriously. you even place the word "failing" in your post. which is correct. pfod "failed" to recognize the implications of his actions. which supports the VI/newb theory. which strengthens that my read on him is correct. which should(but for some reason isn't) help convince you that i am making sense here.

This doesn't make Painted a horrible player that must be lynched, yet it's all you're focusing on. How is he?

try to keep up, junior. we are lynching IS. not pfod. reading is tech.

[don_johnson]

the part about IS ignoring "context" does not have to do with his point about "dv changing his playstyle when called out", but with IS completely ignoring the first ten pages of the game in his analysis. IS repeatedly states he doesn't want to get into pbpa and quote wall type posts. so make of it what you will.

[don_johnson]

dv: pfod does not need to be lynched for "terrible play". but i would much rather lynch the guy using bad logic, newbie strategy, and getting in bed with scummy players like IS, than the players who understand basic mafia theory, notice similar things i notice, and are cooperative. if IS is town, i would be very surprised. especially since he's been around so long. most older players don't act that way, in fact, IS is the only one i've played with recently that has based his entire platform on tunneling, ad hom, and fear mongering.

[don_johnson]

DJ, the way I see it, there are a number of different aspects of mafia in which one may be skilled at. Being unskilled in one does not make someone unskilled in another, which is what you are suggesting is the case with Painted. How are we supposed to know his reads aren't correct?

i know for a fact that one of his reads are wrong. i am not suggesting that because he is unskilled in one area, that he is unskilled in another. i am stating that skill in the game of mafia generally comes from experience. its a game of cunning, mathematics, and interpersonal communications. all things which one gets better at with experience. to be innately skilled in all three is rather rare imo. if you think his reads are correct then go with them. your questions seem to be circular. at some point you have to take a stand. if you agree with pfod, then there's not much more i can do.

Also, you seem to think I'm town. Why is this?

meh. i treat people with respect. you could easily be scum with IS. am i tossing a few insults at pfod? yes, but if you read my posts you will find that i both ask and answer questions. if you spend your entire game paranoid of everyone at every time, you will never be a good scumhunter. lynches take teamwork as this thread is living proof. we've been rattling on for 35 pages and have yet to come to a consensus on a day 1 lynch. there is little teamwork going on.

Also, I suspect Painted more than IS.

^^ explain please. you seem to be defending pfod. am i mistaken? am i your top suspect? if so, how do you justify your suspects being on basically opposite sides of today's fence.

PEdit, you're reducing people to their play-styles, not whether they're likely to be scum or not in this game. I can see where IS is coming from regarding you. "Notice similar things I notice"? "cooperative" So if you're town, whether we win or not should be entirely dependent on whether you are right or wrong?

actually, i'm voting who i think is most likely scum. and no, whether we win or not should depend oentirely on if i'm wrong. you ignoring the dynamic aspect of mafia. lynches, nk's, night actions, etc. can all change players reads. if we lynch IS and he flips town, then i have to accept i was wrong and move on. i'm not asking you to sheep me the entire game. lynches require teamwork. i find the towns i win with are more cooperative than the towns i lose with. and i find that one of scum's strategies is often to sow confusion and work against large groups of players cooperating. if you choose not to benefit from my experience, then so be it. bandwagons occur as a result of town working together and scum attempting to manipulate lynch choices. once you have a flip and a round of night actions, you have much information to sift through to find scum(or more scum if your first lynch is correct or you have a good vig). if you don't want to work with me, then there is not much more i can do. you need to look at players actions and then make sense as to why that player(as scum) would do what they are doing. IS using fear mongering and ad hom to discredit a player who is accusing him of being scum, rather than actually responding to the case against him or bolstering his own cases with evidence, makes sense from a scum perspective. why would a town player do that?

[don_johnson]

ebwop: "and no, whether we win or not should depend oentirely on if i'm wrong"

should read : and no, whether we win or not should not entirely depend on if i'm right or wrong.

[don_johnson]

dv: i think at this point we will have to agree to disagree. i see your point, i just don't agree that that is what is happening here. thanks for clarifying your reads. i am fine with a skenvoy lynch as well. she's been sitting on the sidelines for quite some time imo. i will be on tomorrow afternoon if i need to switch my vote, but first,

unvote, vote: IS

noramp and gutter, will you support this wagon?

CG, OO, and metabot. get in here.

[don_johnson]

and again, IS misrepresents the case i made against him and fails to respond to it. bravo. its a simple question IS: go back to the post of mine where you said there were "multiple lies" and a "contradiction". show where those lies and contradiction are. if they are there, you should be able to find them in under 3 minutes, copy and paste them into the quick reply and then we can move on.

my problem isn't with your playstyle, its with your complete ignorance of whats been going on in this thread. i have been trying to get players to cooperate. you are trying to keep them in the dark. i

am

blatantly trying to "fracture" the town and i have never denied that. its an effective way to scumhunt. you break town into groups based on who is playing logical and cooperative, and who is playing stupid and scummy. you scumhunt in the group of illogical and scummy players first. if scum is in the logical and cooperative side, they usually expose themselves by trying to avoid lynching their buddies in the scummy group. effectively, you are scumhunting in smaller groups, thereby raising your percentage chance of actually hitting scum and forcing much tougher decisions from other scum in how they have to behave in order to keep up their town appearance while not lynching all of their buddies in the process. this strategy rarely fails, in fact, i can't think of a game i have played in where a well organized town formed a voting block and went on to lose.

but whatevz. lets just all vote who we think is scum and when deadline approaches, we can all just sit on our votes and be assholes. then we'll win for sure. [/sarcasm]


do you still want to lynch deas?

[don_johnson]

IS: you are kind of pathetic. the "10 pages bullshit" isn't even a small part of the argument against you. you haven't even answered the nice easy question i lobbed your way in my last couple of posts. nothing you are doing is pro-town.

unvote, vote: metabot

slan: switch back. pfod is VI. i think you're right about metabot. and with IS trying to tie me to mb, i'm thinking its even more of a probability.

[don_johnson]

if you are town, you are the most indecisive player i have ever seen. if you are scum, you're a freaking genius.

[don_johnson]

not sure if its too late, but i pm'd for an extension so metabot has a chance to claim.

metabot: claim please

[don_johnson]

IS: please answer these questions:

is it pro-town to active lurk for 10 pages? y/n

is it pro-town to say "player a is lieing," and when player a asks,"where did i lie?" to then not substantiate the claim of lieing? y/n

is a lynch on day 1 better than a no lynch? y/n

is it pro-town to camp a vote on a player who is in no danger of being lynched all the way up to deadline? y/n

is it pro-town to use ad hom? y/n

is it pro-town to not answer questions? y/n

no explanations please, just simple y/n will do.

thanks.

[don_johnson]

^^ its a good point. but we are surrounded by idiots. this is exactly the kind of lynch i was trying to avoid with my so-called "white knighting", but IS has managed to keep people confused all day. i hope everyone here ultimately realizes IS is scum regardless of this flip. he's done nothing but sow confusion. dividing players into manageable groupings is an effective strategy and ha has fought it tooth and nail, and still, a few hours from deadline is clinging to a useless vote and not trying to help town come to a consensus. he's simultaneously berating me for not calling out metabot for lurking, but sitting on his "belief" that lynching lurkers is scummy. by doing that he puts me in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation. unfortunately the townie thing to do is to cooperate and get a lynch and IS knows thats what i'll do. this has been the most frustrating 40 pages i've had in a long time. but whatevz. his avoidance of the metabot wagon, and basically every other viable wagon tells me that he is scum. his vote on DV could easily be a bus as well, as DV seems to be playing the same strategy of sowing confusion, saying "pfod is scummy" and then defending pfod from attacks. but we'll see. jury is still out. IS placing his vote on unpopular candidates and tunneling on them while avoiding questions is seriously scummy. and look where he is now? camping his vote, sitting on the sidelines and taunting.

[don_johnson]

^^ agreed, and i am pretty sure he's town. his conviction seems genuine. if we lynch him, it would be more for his playstyle than his scumminess. every time he posts it bleeds alittle more VI.

[don_johnson]

there's still time for an IS wagon. well, lets wait and see if mod got my request in time.

[don_johnson]

and again, thank you for answering my questions. [/sarcasm]

are you content with no lynch? y/n

[don_johnson]

IS?

[don_johnson]

IS: answering one out of four or more questions is not legit. and please state how you plan to avoid a no lynch if you will not contribute your vote to a leading wagon close to deadline. other than that i am pretty much done with you.

i don't see noramp scum based on his recent move. going from the lurker/easy wagon to somewhere else can only serve to incriminate him more in the case of a mislynch. so if theres something else you're seeing, let me know.

[don_johnson]

^^ please take this shit to the discussion forum. it has no place in games. it has been generally accepted theory on this site for as long as i have been here that day 1 no lynches benefit scum more than town. i have already briefly described why. if you need more convincing, open a thread in the discussion forums.

[don_johnson]

My point is, which would you rather have: a no-lynch, or a lynch on someone you believe is town?

on day 1, lynch > no lynch.

DW: i think i see your point. you have drawn a connection between slan and metabot. i.e. if metabot flips scum and pfod is town, then it looks like slan dodged his scumbuddies wagon. so we need a flip in there somewhere to help determine others. if metabot flips town, then i think it is less likely that slan's actions were scum motivated. i think we should get a claim from metabot.

[don_johnson]

also, please note that deadline has been looming(even though we are getting extensions), and IS has still not put his money where his mouth is in regards to helping town acheive a lynch. i think he is scum. he has railroaded himself into his "tunneling" and has made it so that he cannot move his vote onto one of the leading wagons without coming off as a huge hypocrite, so instead, he is sitting on his vote and doing nothing to help us. a townie

should

be willing to help regardless of how it "makes them look".

p-edit: yeah, metabot could be confused scum, but he could just as well be disinterested VT. if anything, though, he should be in here claiming a long time ago. the fact that he isn't, leans toward scum. but meh, i really want an IS lynch.

[don_johnson]

i disagree. i think a metabot town flip supports the theory of IS as scum. i think a metabot scumflip supports the idea of IS is scum. you see, IS is sitting on the sidelines when town

needs

to work together. we have the support to at least place IS in the lead to be lynched, but an incomplete wagon is not ideal. IS seems content to let an incomplete wagon get lynched. honestly, the lack of experience in this game is making it hard. its close to deadline. townies should be flocking to wagons that actually have a chance of going through. not lurking and camping votes. if we lynch metabot in this fashion i would guarantee that scum is currently off the wagon(maybe one scum on, but definitely one or two off.)

[don_johnson]

if you agree to lynch IS, then we don't need to lynch metabot. metabot is the leading wagon now, if we fuss around without enough support, we run the risk of no lynch and give scum the upperhand. if you want to no lynch or think it is a good idea, then vote no lynch. someone has to go imo, and i think pfod is more likely town than metabot due to how they have played this game. i think IS is most likely scum of all players. i don't really see any other lynch candidate being able to garner support at this time, so i am staying where i am unless we collectively decide to move to someone else. for instance, if you get pfod up to a tie with meta, i would switch to pfod before deadline to avoid no lynch. other than that, i am fine where i am. if players are willing to move to IS, then i am there.

[don_johnson]

Hilarious, everything has to revolve about how I am supposedly scum in DJ's eyes, even things that I have nothing to do with.

not true. by "having nothing to do" with securing a lynch, you are more likely scum than town imo.

Essentially, DJ is asking me to lynch people who I think are more likely to be town (Painted and Metabot) even though they are probably going to be lynched anyways. What would you say if I do indeed vote for one of them and they do flip town DJ? That I was bandwagon hopping? Going for the quick, easy lynch?

you are relying on the rest of us to do the job that town should be doing together. if you move to one of them and they fllip town, i would say you are scum for all of the reasons i have already mentioned. your window to be a team player has passed. you are scum.

Then of course, if im wrong and they do flip scum, what then? I was defending now known scum?

yes. you have been avoiding working with others to secure a lynch. you are scum.

DJ, all youre doing here is pulling out the spin spin spin and at the same time calling everyone else stupid, er... inexperienced. So whos tunneling who here?

not everyone.

I already gave my opinion, but it doesnt jive with your goals of a communist utopia where youre the only one in charge, so all you have left is attack incessantly. Youre not really doing anyone any favors or even helping the town. Youre helping your assumed standing and bullying your way to getting what you want.

i want your lynch and i am doing everything in my power to get it. yes. you are coasting on weak votes backed up by weak cases whicvh you refuse to back up with evidence.

I also said my two scum suspects are Deas and DJ. Thats twice as many suspects as I normally reveal anyways. Especially so early on. So why should I vote anyone else when the rules state that someone is going to die regardless of whether I vote or not? I already said lynch is better than no lynch. Hell, I never no lynch. But that doesnt mean that I have to participate in this little circus youre trying to run here, DJ.

by not participating, you would be allowing scum more oppurtunity to manipulate the outcome of today. two players competing for a lynch means we need every town vote possible to keep one wagon ahead of the other. there have been several instances close to our deadline where two wagons have been tied and you have done nothing, taken no stand, and offered no help.

Im catching scum on my own. I dont need a fascist "voting block" lead by you to do so. No one does. In fact, that causes so much disharmony that the scum will be able to hide all the game to the endgame.

like is said. not in my experience. i have never seen it fail.

Fuck whatever you claim to be the "site wide consensus" or what you prefer to do. Thats just a tactic to breed a sense of superiority of those "inexperienced" people you want to control. Right now there are all sorts of fruitful discussions happening and if anyone is going to suppress that with bully tactics, its DJ.

"i know you are but what am i? "your defense here is incredible. please tell me which discussions are fruitful? the one about no lynch vs. lynch?

I say they odds of Meta or Painted flipping town are greater since I think Deas and DJ are more likely to be scum. Go ahead, lynch Meta or Painted, you dont REALLY need my vote or blessing to do so. DJ is just trying to assert some sort of control over people's votes and I refuse to play his little game.

we don't need your vote, but it would help. without it, we run the risk of a no lynch, which benefits scum moreso than town. whatever. if you are town i will be extremely surprised. your actions are that of a scumbag. you complain about a "communist utopia", but what you offer everyone is false hope. town doesn't win without cooperation.

p-edit:

unvote, vote: IS

by my count we have a few hours left. i will switch back if necessary, but if the others can commit to this lynch we have enough support for at least L-1 which would be awesome.

[don_johnson]

Somehow, none of that surprises me.

Unvote: Don
Vote: Metabot

I dont have a choice now, its purely a self-preservation vote. Pretty clear to me that Deas and DJ are finally dropping all pretenses and just working together.

one vote on you draws this reaction? you are so scum. thanks for playing.

[don_johnson]

ok. i guess we are all ok with doing jack shit.

unvote, vote: metabot

this town sucks.

[don_johnson]

so yeah. whatever.

vote: don_johnson

lynch me. then you will see that IS and pfod are scum.

[don_johnson]

i just don't have it in me to keep fighting these idiots. noramp was town and saw exactly what i saw. both of these assholes got pissed off about voting lurkers, used it in their case against me that i was voting IS to avoid accountability and some shit, meanwhile, they both hope onto the lurker wagon to end the day.

unvote

IS is still my first choice.

[don_johnson]

vote: skenvoy

CG: nothings changed. pfod is an idiot. always has been. they are either VI or scum. fact that noramps flip had no affect on their opinion of me is disturbing. more sure about IS, because IS isn't a newb.

DV: self vote is just frustration. i really have no interest in reliving yesterday. i'll support the skenvoy wagon as they were one of the major players yesterday and they make sense as scumpartners with either pfod or IS or both. so yeah. there it is.

[don_johnson]

unvote, vote: IS