Mini 1266 - My iTunes Mafia - GAME OVER

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/confirm

Vote: [J]

for suspicious brackets.

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Painted, what's your experience with online mafia that you don't see fishing as a good scum-finding tactic?

What's an alternative to fishing that you see as more useful?

Slandaar, you said in #46 that your scum-read on Sken was "ridiculously strong" (for the time of day), but I haven't seen you give any strong reasons for your suspicion of Sken, only that you would "go out on a limb" and call out Sken as being prob scum for (implicitly) Sken's OMGUSsy reaction to Deas, which you quoted in the post in which you voted for her, and Painted's defense of her. Given the relative weakness of those tells, what was it that prompted you do make such a strong statement about your feeling about Sken?

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I swear to God Painted, I want to see you hanged just for being irrational. When someone says something against you your immediate response is to claim suspicion of that person (though in the most recent case with Skenvoy it seems a lot more like conscious distancing), and in addition to that you are unable (or unwilling) to realise that the whole issue of whether DeasVail's original reasoning for voting Sken was reasonable or not is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT, and so you KEEP BRINGING IT BACK UP, which is, as far as I can tell, only a good thing to do if you want to waste a lot of people's time (which, imo, is a scum thing to do). When people explain why they think you are suspicious, you seemingly inevitably misconstrue what they are saying and claim that they are misrepresenting you or whatever, and then when nobody agrees with you you're surprised, as though it never occurs to you that it could be

your

reasoning that is flawed.

On that note, Don John's post was excellent. Every problem you pointed out in #62 is based entirely on your own, personal conviction that DV must be scum because he was suspicious of you, and on reason not at all. It's true that no one really called you out and proved your irrationality on each point, but despite that the fact that you now strut around assuming that it's granted that his post was "scummy" is at best irresponsible and at worst malign.

In short it's hard for me to get a read on you because I have difficulty telling the difference between intentionally irrational evil and the irrationality of people who can only experience a self-centered, emotionally coloured perspective, but either way I'm not happy.

Skenvoy: I tend not to vote a lot - is that a thing on this site? I guess the idea would be that scum wouldn't want to leave a trail of votes that could later be analysed to their detriment...? Or is it also that scum would be nervous of putting themselves out on a limb and would therefore wish to gauge reactions before committing to a solid vote?

Ha, regarding that last one, what do you think of this?

"I still suspect DV and I'm going to wait and see what responses I get before changing my vote."

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vote: Skenvoy

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I voted Skenvoy because Skenvoy's posts above mine - in many small ways, like the way she quotes PFoD's entire post and sentences like "Okay, if I'm honest, I don't expect him to be lynched quickly.", which strike me as very scummy in part because of how wishy-washy they are and in part on a gut level - seem to me like the kind of attack (on a scumbuddy or town, regardless) only scum would make.

In fact, the more I look at that sentence I quoted, and the entire post it's from, the more scummy it seems. Why would you vote someone and, when questioned (by DV), say that you don't expect your vote to be very effective (which is what Skenvoy's post implies) (unless you are scum in which case it makes perfect sense)? Even if the vote were meant as a pressure vote of some kind (which IMO this is not), why ruin it by saying so, even if not outright?

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Some things:

Or is it also that scum would be nervous of putting themselves out on a limb and would therefore wish to gauge reactions before committing to a solid vote?

Ha, regarding that last one, what do you think of this?

"I still suspect DV and I'm going to wait and see what responses I get before changing my vote."

I find it telling that Skenvoy did not respond to this question. She could have missed it. It could be that she wishes to avoid analysing Painted's posts for scummy behavior, because he is her scumbuddy, as others have hypothesised.

This is not a big deal, but I think it is useful to recognise.

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J bothers me a lot. The anime gifs suggest that it may be mainly an issue of polar personalities, but I get a very bad feeling from a lot of things that J has said. I think this quote is an excellent example:

"I really really really dislike the Sken wagon and will probably never jump on there this game without a cop guilty on her. I have too strong of a town-read of her and I doubt much will budge it at the current time. How are people reading her as scum, I haven't the slightest."

Primarily because it seems completely backward, given the events of the game.

Furthermore J seems to trade in town reads, as it were, rather than scum reads, which also seems completely backward to me, not to mention dangerous. The whole buddy buddy thing between J and DV and Skenvoy bothered me a lot. The idea that a player could ever "win the trust" (147) of a townie, who necessarily cannot know for certain the role of anyone, is ridiculous.

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I agree with everything Don has said, which makes me a little suspicious of Fennin, whose votes, imo, haven't been very good throughout the game. Incidentally I agree with the basic suspicion of metabot. Indeed Fennin's easy abandonment of his post against metabot made me more suspicious of him.

Metabot reads like a new player to me though, more than careless scum.

Painted's vote on DJ is obviously just his newest OMGUS vote against whoever his current main attacker happens to be. As far as I can see Painted at this point MUST either be scum or a complete VI. There is no alternative. I have said things to this effect before, so whatever.

Incidentally, Sken's "I'm liking Painted's recent post - he's focusing on scumhunting, rather than defending (actually, he's got a good mixture of both)." in 196 and subsequent unvote makes me laugh.

Especially that "for now" after the vote. I don't have any real evidence for this, but in all the games I've been in I have never seen that phrase after a vote and not seen it as a scummy way to soften the implications of the vote or unvote. In fact everything about 196 seems scummy to me. I may come back to this and pull it apart a little more.

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I would like to mention that I am more suspicious of Skenvoy than Painted, which is appropriate considering the location of my vote, and that my suspicion of the two does not greatly rest on a possible connection between them (although that is not to say that I do not suspect that there is such a connection - I do, obviously).

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Internet Stranger's recent post was a defense of his failure to participate appreciably in this game, disguised in aggression. It is not telling either way.

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Sorry for the big post. I try to be concise, but evidently I'm not active enough to keep things balanced with the greater number of posts required to mention everything I wish to mention.

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Conciseness is important because there's a point at which a post is so big and bloated that nobody reads it.

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^ It's in part stuff like that which makes me prefer a Skenvoy lynch to a Painted lynch for day one.

@Gutter: what do you think of J's reasoning for his read on Sken?

I think J doesn't really knows how WIFOM works. One of the things smart mafia are supposed to do is act in a way that makes them look like a townie. The amount of self-control Skenvoy exhibits (and she has very good self control) makes it pretty obvious that she can handle forging the kind of (pathetic) townie sentiment that gives rise to the kind of posts J was talking about.

Again this is all within the hypothesis that Skenvoy is scum.

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Deasveil: You're acting strange - it's like you really want me to think you're scum. I can't understand the motivation for that, from either town or scum.

What happened to

Deas is definitely town.

? (I'm assuming that by "...want me to think you're scum" you mean to imply that something DV has just done seemed scummy to you)

Other than DV voting you, I mean. I would hope that there's more to your new suspicion of DV than "he voted me".

Either way, it would be nice if you would explain what you meant in your post (237).

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I agree with Slandaar vis IS, but I don't think we need an IS lynch today. I think IS is a dick but also a distraction from more important things, like actual scum. Also IS makes me laugh.

DV, why did you vote DJ? Your vote was seemingly in response to DJ's post about not caring to explain again why PFoD's reasons for suspecting him are vacant of value, but from my point of view that's a perfectly reasonable thing to say, given how unreasonable PFoD has been throughout the entire game. If you have been reading the thread, which I believe you have, you should be intimately familiar with PFoD's attitude toward DJ (and more importantly, all of his attackers in general).

In short it doesn't make sense to me and that is suspicious on some level.

IS: You'd do me a big favour by dropping the BS (as much as you're able to, anyway) and at the very least looking over the behavior of one or two of the more suspicious players from the last few pages. Given your attitude I assume that you are more interested in a day 2 game than a day 1 game, so get off your ass and help us get there with something more valuable than a policy lynch.

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This is stupid. Why did you people wait until the last few days to start throwing suspicion at everything that moves?

IS, how can you expect anyone to take you seriously after the way you've behaved throughout the entire game? How can you expect people to take you seriously with what you have in your sig, for god's sake?

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No, I was lurking. That's an entirely different problem.

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QED

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This is stupid. Why did you people wait until the last few days to start throwing suspicion at everything that moves?

IS, how can you expect anyone to take you seriously after the way you've behaved throughout the entire game? How can you expect people to take you seriously with what you have in your sig, for god's sake?

Ha, are you not familiar with IS's play style? He's infamous. He doesn't expect anyone to ever take him seriously. He did this meta thing for a while where he acted really scummy in a whole bunch of games in a row, and got lynched as a townie a bunch, until people stopped lynching him for acting scummy...

By the way, how do you feel about my sig?

That's good to know.

unvote, vote: IS

P.S. this is not a pressure vote or anything like that, it's a kill vote.

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Yes. I think the main reason he's going after DV so hard right now is that he wants to distract from previous targets, i.e., his scum buddies, and that he thinks he can get away with being so obvious about it because of whatever stupid meta bullshit he's managed to accrue over the years acting like an asshole.

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EBWOP: That should read "going after you"*

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DV: Yes it is, and there are several people I would prefer to lynch at this point (primarily PFoD), but that's no reason not to kill IS if I can get away with it.

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I been making a pretty damn solid case on Deas. Hell, even Deas can admit to that. Thats called contributing to the game. Thats called actually looking for the scum.

Gutter is taking whatever painted told him and running with it and not doing much of anything. Gutter couldnt even mention who these "scumbuddies" are supposed to be either. For suddenly whos suddenly so active, he really doesnt have much of a constructive opinion over whats happening in the game.


Then again...

This is stupid. Why did you people wait until the last few days to start throwing suspicion at everything that moves?

IS, how can you expect anyone to take you seriously after the way you've behaved throughout the entire game? How can you expect people to take you seriously with what you have in your sig, for god's sake?

...whos that asshole, again?

It's posts like these also that make me think IS is scum. IS is hard to get a read on, because his play style is so messed up, but one thing that I think makes the difference between IS and IScum is that IS wouldn't be concerned with a couple of votes or statements of suspicion, since, after all, his play style virtually guarantees that he'll get that kind of thing. (And I used to play a lot like IS back in the day, and when I was town I really did not care what people said about me at all.)

No, it's only with a scum role that I could see IS being

so concerned

about his own defense, because with a scum role he would be obligated, of course, to act scummy, as is apparently his mode of doing things all the time - but as scum, of course, he would have to live with the disconcerting realisation that he is playing in a scummy way as scum, which is the reverse of every kind of good strategy in this game.

Thus he is forced to defend himself in the only way he can: by attacking others (since his own play is indefensible), which is what he's been doing this whole time.


But of course none of this can be true because in his sig it's clearly spelled out that he's a tunnelling monster even when innocent, right? (wrong)

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I dont know DeasScum, Gutter seems to be pretty adamant on killing me, but only "if he can get away with it".

IS, would you be happy with a PFoD lynch?

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It is a mystery to me how he can not be at the top of everyone's scumlist, the scumminess of other players notwithstanding.

People ignore his posts all the time, because they are too ridiculous to respond to (like the one above where he talks about having been omgussing you all day long), and imo that's no different from ignoring a lurker, except that a lurker isn't actively scummy.

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^ that

DV: it didn't seem necessary.

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Ok, we agree about everything. That's cool.

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Actually your case looks less shitty than I thought at first.

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Well we could lynch painted.

unvote, vote: PFoD

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PFoD, Skenvoy, Fennin, DW, IS

I will vote for any of these, instantly.

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giant fos: dv ffs.


I swear to god why do you people keep doing these things to me

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In fact I am amending my list to include DV.

PFoD, Skenvoy, Fennin, DW, IS, DV

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Also I am taking off IS, because while I would love to kill him I don't think an IS lynch is good for day one. Yes I have changed my mind - deal with it.

PFoD, Skenvoy, Fennin, DW, DV

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DV: Because you can't decide other people's suspicions for them, and because you haven't insulted IS as much as he deserves.

Both of those are highly manipulative and rub me the wrong way.

EDIT: Also apparently you just lied, which is more of the same.

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Also apparently you take Painted seriously. FoS on everyone who does that.

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I would like to mention that I agree with Painted's last post on p28.

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DV changed his attitude because he was attacked by someone who isn't a complete outlier (i.e. you or PFoD), and now he's having to face the possibility that he might swing today.

FoS on everyone who doesn't take everyone seriously. I'm looking at you, gutter. And yes, I'm seriously FoSing Gutter.

omgus

Well I think I was pretty accurate in my suspect lists (considering I limited each person to three). If you'd like to provide possible theories as to how I was being manipulative with it, then please go ahead.

It was manipulative because you generalised people's lists, selectively excluding the targets that were least helpful to your goals (it doesn't matter if your goals were perfectly in line with those of a theoretical townie). You left half of my list off* so that you could then say at the end of your post that the top targets were Skenvoy and Painted (or whoever, I'm not bothered to check just this second). You even came out and said that you specifically left yourself off - EVEN if you said it straight out it's STILL manipulative and biased.

I don't really like insulting people, gutter. That's not how I do things (OMG I'm obvscum now) but if that's how you think things should be done, then fine.

When IS threw a load of crap at DJ, DJ stuffed it right back at him. Your very calm and non-defensive attitude toward IS's (serious) accusations against you is clearly designed to de-fang his attack. If you don't defend, and no one else becomes involved (note: now that I am involved as well I see you've leapt into the defense, at last, like I was saying in my first sentence), it won't escalate and you will easily survive IS's attack by ignoring it.

Admittedly this is something I could see someone doing as town, but that doesn't change the fact that the purpose of it is to manipulate the reactions of others (i.e. by reacting to the attack at the lowest possible level you cause people not to become suspicious of you/notice the attack/etc)

Well I know it won't change anything, but I will say that I didn't mean to say that I didn't see Gutter's post until after I posted. I meant until after I started doing my post, but I don't expect you to believe me, so whatevs.

Ok, no big deal.


*See above, but imo the point stands.

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Are you talking about this?

http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?tit ... edirect=no

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Why is a neighbor claim bad at all?

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Vote: PFoD

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IS 1
PFoD

2

DW

2

Fennin

2

DV 1
Skenvoy 1

IS, Skenvoy, and DV are not going to be lynched.
Vote PFoD.

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Painted is now in the lead with

3

votes.

In other news I wish you two would shut up.

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To answer whoever's question that was, I asked for an extension.

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Evidently it worked.

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That's not going to happen.

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cry more

Mod,

what's the timezone for the deadline times?

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5:40PM on Nov. 22
Pacific time is -8 GMT
so 1:40 on Nov. 23 GMT (I think)
Which means 14:40 Nov 22 EST (I think)

Which is about negative 15 minutes from now, I think, so either I screwed up or the deadline has passed (or there was an extension).

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I am ok with this.

Vote: Metabot

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Honestly a pfod lynch is also something of a policy lynch.

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Vote: Painted Face of Death

1^2

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I would lynch PFoD, Skenvoy, or IS right now. I am serious.

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I can change my vote whenever I want. I would rather lynch PFoD that Skenvoy.

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That should read "than Skenvoy".

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Unvote, vote: Skenvoy

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Guys, I really want to kill PFoD.