Mini 1352: Leprechaun Mafia - Game over

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There was once a mafia player
your friendly neighbourhood slayer
he voted for crypto
a serious low blow
we want to punish this behaviour

vote parama

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Hmm, fake daycops are odd, but then I guess Petapan is a bit of an odd player. I think there were too many people waiting and seeing what was going to happen to make bvoigt scum. If he were scum, scum wouldn't know it was a reaction test, and bussing would be more prevalent. When he's town, scum know it's a reaction test and try to wait it out.

The following post caught my eye.

I'm down. It's not RVS anymore.
Jordan might be scum though. Maybe just wordy but 44 is over explained for something that's hardly a big deal. Gets all mad about making judgments hastily when petapan clearly said "let's wait and see." Reads like white knighting to me.

vote: bvoigt

The first line sounds really apologetic to me, and that seems a weird way to vote someone for a lynch. I think pacman knew he'd get under scruteny for this vote and already tried to make sure he wasn't to blame for it.

vote evilpacman

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flinter what are your thoughts on bvoigt's response - town/scum/dunno?

I don't know, which is why I went for the surrogate, looking at the whole towns reaction to bvoigt. I think he's town from that.

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jesus god i didn't know i signed up for a game with eritas

lmao

Before I forget about this:

If I take this correctly you know scumhunter under some other name. I fear I don't know a lot about scumhunter, and since you apparently have some experience with him, could you tell me what I can expect from him?

About Fuduzn's drunkeness claim, I'm willing to excuse him from that. I understand how you could explain that as being scummy, but I'm not feeling it here. I think fuduzn is town.

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If I had to guess now, I'd say yes. With Jordan and/or Evilpacman.

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No, crypto, I'm not. As it is, I have enough trouble finishing games with this account. I fear I have rather a history of flaking. However, now that my school has finished I'm hopeful I can finish this one.

I have played elsewhere, but used the same name, so I don't think we know each other.

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Requesting replacement.

Nope, not playing with this playerlist.

aww, that's too bad


1. Scumhunter
2. Pine
3. SleepyKrew
4. FuDuzn
5. JordanA24
6. Vultage
7. Parama
8. petapan
9. Gregory
10. flinter
11. crypto
12. bvoigt
13. evilpacman18

there were only 6 who inned after you, and I can't believe you wouldn't want to play with me. What's so terrible about us?

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I'd like to vote for parama.

well any game with crypto in it is half-screwed already because he decided that everyone on MS sucks and is a moron or something like that so he trolls
also I don't ever look at the playerlist when I in
I didn't even know this was Slaxx's game until he sent me a role PM

I don't think crypto is trolling this game. I also don't get the feeling he's stupid. He has earlier made a post where he said you wouldn't be that stupid (I think he was implying you are scum, it would be nice if crypto could confirm that). I skimmed a couple of day one's from you, Parama, and generally you are a bit of of a boy in those. What I mean by that is that you are a tad aggressive, a bit trying to work your way up the pecking order. Here, you either got outbluffed by (amongst other actions) petapan's fakeclaim, or you simply didn't bother.

I don't know if I have to see your random vote for crypto in this light, since you never pressed it. What is clear from that is that right at the start you were aware of crypto playing in this game and if you hated playing with him I think you'd have replaced out right then. The fact that you waited till now to request replacement seems to show that the game wasn't going your way. I could expatiate on that, but regardless of how I do that, the only way in which you could know already at this point that the game isn't going your way is if you are scum.

vote parama

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oh well, I guess it's only civil to let manju let us show what allignment he or she is.

unvote

FuDuzn's last vote strikes me as odd. The way he comes into that vote is I think what's bugging me is the last line "And f it, vote crypto". I think this shows that he knows it's not really a healthy idea to vote crypto here, either slightly scared about crypto or the games reaction to it. What could be a bold daring vote instantly becomes a parked vote on crypto. If you are advertising your vote like this already, there is no way a serious wagon is going to form. I don't like it.

I don't think both the leading wagons are a good idea, but I don't want to vote for the number three just because of that. After all, there are 13 players in this game, and I don't want to make the choice for others between two town and a scum.

Even if we forgot for a second about the upcoming deadline, the players we should be really worried about are scumhunter, sleepykrew and Jordan. Sleepykrew hasn't posted anywhere for some time, but I'd estimate one scum in the remaining two. A choice between those two would already be better then the choice we have now, I think. If there are more players up for it, I wouldn't mind a jordan lynch.

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I also don't like Cryptos lack of substance in his posts.

I fear I disagree with this statement.

On page 12, fuduzn's posts toward crypto show a lot of aggression. This is odd, for someone who earlier claimed that his vote on crypto was one of frustration more then for actual scummyness. I fear you can't have it both ways, fuduzn. Either you call him outright scum (which I don't think he is here), or you don't attack him while leaving your vote on bvoigt for rather insubstantial reasons. The disparity between what you say and what your vote is doing is too big, in my opinion and it makes that you are high on my scumlist.

You call Gregory "obvtown" for appearing enthusiastic to hunt scum. This is not overtly town behaviour, all players should be enthusiastically hunting scum, regardless of their alignment. Whether or not they appear to be doing so is more an indication of ability rather than alignment IMO.

I think I disagree with you here. If someone is scumhunting, that makes them more likely to be town. Just below this quote you give crypto plus points for speaking out against policy lynching... I know where my priorities lie then. Everybody can speak out against policy lynching, I've never had a game where a policy lynch actually went through. Crypto is town, but not for that reason.

flinter

...

Furthermore, using the rest of us as a bellwether for whether you think bvoigt is scum or not does absolve you of responsibility there.

Oh, no, I wouldn't have that. When I post a read, I don't think it matters where I think I got it. Sure, I can be wrong, but that doesn't make it anyone elses fault: it was still me who had that read.

Also, why were you so keen to know scumhunter better? I'm sure there are other players here you don't know very well either. And, why would you trust crypto's opinion alone on this? He might have reason to deceive you.

I'm sure wouldn't decieve me And crypto and petapan seemed to know scumhunter better then the average player here knows each other. That is something that can be discussed, right?

I think I like the two sentences of Gregory in the last post where he downplays his own towniness. Unless he's outsmarting me, and he did it actually to seem town, I think that I should see him as town. You better not be fooling me, gregory.

By the way, gregory, what are your thoughts about scumhunter? I'd like to know them (sorry if you already posted them somewhere) as I'm not sure I want to trust petapan his read. I think he is town, but he seems a tiny bit biased about scumhunter.

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Going back a bit, I was looking at Servanto claiming crypto's posts don't have substance. It's interesting. I think it's potentially a legitimate opinion (not an opinion that I agree with, but it is one) just because crypto is a one-line poster and that doesn't sit well with a lot of people. Servanto's quite the one-line poster himself so far though, and so it's hypocritical. Plus his one lines, ignoring the fact that there's far fewer of them than crypto's, have an average of less content, see iso 0, 2, 3, and 4. That's a nice 66% contentless posts. It's a bit early for this cuz he probably hasn't really read the game yet. Another thing that caught my eye was the exchange in 275 and 276.

Gregory didn't go out of his way to welcome any of the other replacements, and so the interaction seems to me like there's some sort of solidarity going on in between them.

This is a bit of a stretch, I know, but considering Gregory is one of my scum reads, I think it will be more relevant when we actually have a flip from him. That being said:

vote: Gregory

I notice peta said the same thing I just did in 287 so that makes me feel a bit better about my opinions, although I think with a little more of Servanto's posts since that point, it helps to add that he's being hypocritical.
Scumhunter, I don't know what you want from me. Yes some of my posts aren't serious. So? I post content when I post content and if I seem noncommittal for any reason it's probably because my scum reads aren't as strong this game as they are or have been in other games, but that just happens. I can't be 100% sure I have the scum team in 15 pages every game. 5 and 8 were a semi-joke and an indication that I might read Armageddon as scummy but without actually saying I think he's scum just yet. Maybe you didn't like the wording of 9 but I'm still leaning scum on Manju for that, so from my POV it's not fluff. Oh and hey, you just admitted in 303 that your reads are especially weak this game, so I'm thinking it might actually be an indication that you, peta, and I are all town if we're all having a weirdly weak game.
bvoight: no, because I'm leaning town on SH now. His case on me was weak and mildly scummy I thought but I didn't wanna call him scum because I might just be biased from the fact that he thinks I'm scum. In light of his more recent posts, I'd guess I was right to hold back on that.
I actually kinda agree with a lot of 317 even though I'm still concerned about Jordan.

I'm stretched for time, so I skimmed the last page and hardly read this one, I don't think petapan vs. scumhunter has much for me to discuss in it anyway.

The bolded is über weak. I posted "sup" and he said "welcome" and you give that enough credence to vote for him? Pfft

And as far as being a one line poster, I'm fine with it, as long as it appears to be posting that is going towards finding mafia. Cryptos posts have been short bouts of anger for the most part with a few that have givin some insight to his thinking.

Funny you mistake substance with amount of words you can jot down.

This post is good, I agree with everything it says. In that light, I'd like to look at one of the next posts of EPM, which reveals his allignment more then this.

It isn't the thing that convinced me to vote you, I'd already established a scum read on you, I was just making note of something that might be relevant if you flip scum, which I made very clear, along with the fact that I'm aware it's weak.
Post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. Continue to argue illogically, I love it.

Here EPM chooses to tunnel, and it's a concious decision. This either means he is a convinced townie, or scum who likes to argue from a stance that doesn't change. It's important to remember that what triggered his vote was Gregory saying welcome.

Crypto, and perhaps petapan, I think you should see this as scum picking a target and hiding in arguing about that. It seems to me that EPM picked gregory here and tried to build his case on Gregories reactions afterward. I want to sheep Gregory here, and I'd love it if you did that as well.

vote EPM

If we are talking about who else we want to lynch, I'm still up for a manju lynch based on parama's interaction with this game, and Jordan, who I believe to be scum as well.

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flinter, your reads are pretty bad. parama being a selfish dick and immediately replacing out of the game isn't a scum-tell, it's a parama-tell. maju has posted a lot since replacing in, have you read any of it? because he's one of my biggest townreads right now, as is jordan who even though i don't agree with him seems to have a genuine thought process at least

If parama was so selfish, why didn't he replace out at the start of the game? He waited because of something. I think it's because he knew then already he wasn't winning (which would make him scummy). Manju's post have a nice ring to it, but nothing he said convinced me that my read on parama is wrong. As for Jordan, I could be wrong there. I simply haven't seen enough from him, I guess.

But, I know I'm not perfect, lets try it your way:

vote armageddon

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yeah i don't like flinter's armageddon vote, it's worded so that she can avoid accountability if he flips town but still discredit petapan and crypto for it

would still probably vote him over epm during crunch time but out of petapan's hypothetical scumteam i think pine and scumhunter were both better targets

I don't think votes work like that. If armageddon is a townie, you could probably find scum in the people who didn't give solid reasons but hopped on. If he's scum, things are a little different.

I think you know the above already as well. Your post doesnt make sense to me.

@gregory. Sorry I can only support one bandwagon at a time, and this one has crypto and peta. I fear you are outnumbered.

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Pacman, you complain that I read you wrongly all the time. It could easily be that way, sure, but how am I supposed to know what you are then? I could call you town this time, and be wrong yet again. As you can easily understand, I wouldn't want you fooling me here. Suppose I do see you as scummy each game, could you please help me out here and show me you are town in a way that even I must see you are town this time?

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I'm not asking for proof, silly. I know you can't do that. I'd just like you to try to show me, that's all.

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oh, wow, we have replacements and you guys kicked this game back into action! Great!

This does mean I suddenly have a lot to catch up. I'll have time for you this evening, and I'll read what you posted!

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Ok, first things first: the amount of replacements is annoying. I fear I'm having trouble coupling reads I had on replaced players to the players that are here now.

Tammy is armageddon, who I was voting. EPM is still here, working manju replaced Parama, and I thought parama was scummy for replacing out. Doomyoshi replaced Sleepykrew, and I don't think I had an accurate read on Sleepykrew.

Yeah this is good.

vote: denisatp

I fear I don't agree, Pacman. Posts like these are exactly why I keep reading you as scum.

Unofficial vote count.

Tammy [6]: Crypto, Petapan, Flinter, Bvoigt, Scumhunter, Working Manju
evilpacman18[3]: servanto, Gregory, FuDuzn
fuDuzn [1]: Pine, Denis
bvoigt [1]: Tammy
Denis: Pacman

Hmmm...quick look at my predecessor's start date tells me he's rather new. So, which one of you on my wagon are scum pushing for the easy lynch of the new guy?

I'd like to attempt to answer this question, if I may. With Bvoigt as town from the reaction test, Peta and Crypto as townreads, I really have trouble to believe the wagon on you is pushed by scum. Naturally, wagons pushed by town can be wrong as well, but when your first 5 posts have 3 posts that only say "But I'm really town!", I'm having more and more trouble to believe I'm on the wrong wagon Tammy. Don't get me wrong, I really appreciate you putting in the effort and replacing into a slot that has a lot of votes, but I think you are scum.

Oh Shinori! Your slot has a chance to be town...you're not sitting on my wagon at the very least

Tammy, why are you making so many posts like these... how can I see you as town when half the posts you make seem to have no other goal then telling us you are town?

FLINTER - Now I know what that is. Someone asked me if I was flinter somewhere...I don't remember where. But, I just didn't answer because I had no idea what a flinter was. Now I do. Hmmm...I wish I could remember what game someone asked me if I was flinter in.

I'm flattered. I read a couple of games of you when you got nominated for a scummy, and I wish I played like you. So I naturally had to look up who said that (it was timeater as an alt in an ongoing game). Thanks for telling me about it.

flinter

why are you voting Armageddon?

Seriously, does no one here know how to read newbies or are you all just going for the easy lynch?

Flinter Post 437 You're voicing what I've been saying since I replaced in. WHAT ARE YOU DOING ON THIS HORRIBLE WAGON???

VOTE: Flinter Seems to be the easiest/flimsiest vote on my wagon. I realize that peta is going to get you guys to push through my mislynch today because I'm evil. Whatever. LOOK AT MY WAGON!!!!!!!!! IT'S AN EASY LYNCH OF A NEWBIE AND SCUM ARE HANGING ON IT. I'll look at the votes when I'm done reading to see if I can make sense of who's is on this derpwagon for realsies and who's on it for an easy ride.

...

Think the opportunistic scum to be found on my derpwagon will be found in Flinter or bvoigt with an outside chance of petapan - peta only because he should be reading me as town right now and refuses.

I think I can answer this all in one go.

I'm opportunistic, I can't deny that. I see a chance and I'm trying to take it. I literally hop onto a then growing wagon, after peta and crypto. Manju calls me out, saying that I would supposedly blame crypto and peta for said lynch, should it be on town.

At that point I tell manju he's wrong in that reasoning: people should always blame me, if armageddon/tammy turns out to be town. After all, I hopped on with little reasons given other then that I trusted peta's judgement, and saw no scum on the wagon.

Then why do I make this vote? Suppose armageddon/tammy is scum! Then suddenly my flimsy vote is no longer so flimsy, because which scum would hop onto a two man wagon with no reasoning? I'm opportunistic, I think the odds of armageddon/tammy ending up scum are good, and I'm trying to make that lynch happen.

On second thought, while I was writing this, a question entered my mind: why did working manju assume armageddon/tammy would flip town?

Third thought: he did replace parama. I think I'm still up for that wagon as well, should it come.

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Also crypto, for the sake of this game you need to not get so mad when I prod you, as peta says it is only going to get you mad and make you look bad. And I admit, I probably took it too far at some points, but most of my prodding is game related. We don't have to be best friends, but we could be more civil.

sorry fucker, you had your chance to not be a dipshit. i will be policy-voting you till one of us is dead.

Please crypto, this isn't the way. You can dislike people, but that shouldn't have to get between you and the game. Please, play the game. Do it for me, ok?

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Oh Shinori! Your slot has a chance to be town...you're not sitting on my wagon at the very least

Tammy, why are you making so many posts like these... how can I see you as town when half the posts you make seem to have no other goal then telling us you are town?

Partially in jest, partially serious. He's not on my wagon which is a plus for him, and we played together in another game and I was saying hi. How could you think I'm scum from that?

It's the "your slot has a chance to be town part". You didn't have to post that. Like I said, about half the posts you made implied in some way that your slot is town, and little other then that. It seems such a waste of words to say each time that you are town, while you could prove it with your actions.

I wasn't blaming you for it being ongoing. It hardly matters, it has no influence over either game. I just thought I should be on the save side myself and not name it. I'm answering your questions in the next post.

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Do you tend to trust other people's judgment over your own? Does no scum on a wagon mean it's a good wagon? I've pushed bad wagons as town before. How do you

know

they aren't scum though?

No, I don't do that too often. Usually, I do take it into account. And it depends on who the other players are. No scum on a wagon greatly increases it's chances of being good. Scum on a wagon, esspecially around the start makes it near certainly bad. And I try to read people, and I think peta and crypto are town. I don't know as such, but I have to start somewhere!

Suppose they might be scum! That's seriously your answer? Suppose anyone might be scum! That's a perfectly valid reason to jump on any wagon. I can't believe you actually wrote that. What scum would hop onto a two man wagon with little reasoning? I'm um...did you actually just write that too? Do you mean to say that you jumped on the wagon in hoped of proving you're not scum because what scum would do that? I have a little bit of a hangover, am I misreading something?

Well, I wrote about both things happening. A little above that, I wrote about what manju said, which applies to the case where you are town. It's not more then fair to write about the other case as well, which happens to be the one I believe in. So no, I don't mean to say that. I hope we'll lynch scum this way. I didn't randomly pick you, I think we have a good chance of getting scum day one and that would be cool!

Uh-huh...so when your opportunistic spree puts you on a wagon that flips town, you'll answer that obviously you're not scum because no scum would be so blatantly opportunistic? I'm still trying to wrap my head around people thinking that Armaggedon had a good chance to flip scum.

Wait, this was never a spree. Apart from this vote I have always made a neat case trying to convince other people to join me. Bu tin the end, there are only a few that can ask for a certain lynch, most players have to actually answer that call to make it happen. Further, I fear I haven't thought that far ahead, I'm not that busy with what happens tomorrow. Sometimes people get lynched and sometimes they don't. In the end it's the town that decides, not an individual. All I can do is try to work in the town and try to make the right lynch happen. If a majority of the town thinks they should lynch me, what more can I do? In the end, trying to avoid the lynch is a waste of time: people usually don't get a say in their own lynch. So why be preoccupied with that?

Perhaps working assumed he would flip town because he actually read Armaggedon's posts and realized that he's a newbie who should be read that way.

What does Parama replacing out have to do with anything? I recently finished a game in which I replaced into Parama's innocent spot; a good number of people thought he was scum day one but he wasn't.

I've posted about that in a previous post, I could look it up. Parama was bugging me, and now manju that never even considers you could flip scum. I don't know, it just doesn't feel good. It could happen as town... but it's so likely as scum as well.

Did you have a scum read on Working? If so, what do you think about his request that I link him to a game of mine in which I said I behaved similarly to here. That type of behavior comes from town more often than it comes from scum. Sure scum can do it too, but if he actually reads what I gave him and tries to make an assessment of me based on that, I'd say the chances of him being town are quite high. That and his behavior reads as town to me anyway.

I fear I don't believe in such meta reads. I like meta, but I don't think one can do it objectively. Rereading a game will never be the same as playing with someone in a game. When you reread, you lose all sense of time, and timing makes all the difference.

[flinter]

Do you tend to trust other people's judgment over your own? Does no scum on a wagon mean it's a good wagon? I've pushed bad wagons as town before. How do you

know

they aren't scum though?

No, I don't do that too often. Usually, I do take it into account. And it depends on who the other players are. No scum on a wagon greatly increases it's chances of being good. Scum on a wagon, esspecially around the start makes it near certainly bad. And I try to read people, and I think peta and crypto are town. I don't know as such, but I have to start somewhere!

Ok cool! Crypto is no longer on my wagon, so are you feeling conflicted about which way you should go now?

crypto said he didn't want to play the game with fuduzn anymore. I feel he's getting influenced by things outside this game.

It would be cool if we lynched scum day one! Now, join me in trying to find out who they are! (Hint: If you want to hit scum day one, you're on the wrong wagon.)

You didn't make such remarks like the one in parenthesis. Why do you insist in posting that you are really town this game?

Well, of course you didn't randomly pick me. You're playing follow the leader; there's no random about that.

So, why did you think Armageddon was scum?

I followed the leader, there was nothing random about it. Peta just was rather insistent and I saw nothing against the wagon, hence the chances are that he's right and I should be on your wagon. Lately you are rather confirming peta's read on you, I fear. I wasn't sure about armageddon.

You are the scum on my wagon aren't you flinter?

You say you try to make the right lynch happen, but then you're openly admitting to being on my wagon opportunistically. Oh, I forgot. Hey! It might hit scum! Why not!

mhmm, I can't say that I know you are scum. You may be. I think you are. But you could turn out to be town as well. I'd be sorry to see you go then. But if you are scum, we lynch scum day one! I'd really like to do that.

So, flinter does it hurt to keep so many contradictory thoughts in your head? How was Parama bugging you? From what I gather Parama has a tendency to bug people. Day one of Experimental, all Parama did was troll the hell out of the people in the game. I don't see any difference here. Did Working say there was absolutely no possible way that I could flip scum? How do you know he didn't consider it.

In his posts to me, he already assumed you would flip town, he only considers the case that you do and I look bad because of it. And it doesn't hurt to keep all thoughts in my head, that's just what makes this game fun! Everything we do could be done as town and as scum, but as we add things up, add a little of what our heart gives us in, we might just hope to figure it all out, to make sense of it!

Also, peta has a town read on working. If you have such a town read on peta, that you're willing to follow him on my wagon, why aren't you following his town read of working?

Because I'm not a mindless player? I don't mind following his read onto you, there was nothing against your wagon. But in the end, following one town player isn't the way to victory. Discussion should take place, to sharpen each other reads. And at the end of it, as town, you have to make sure you agree with each other. Sometimes I'll follow peta, and sometimes peta will see sense in my thoughts.

I fear I don't believe in such meta reads. I like meta, but I don't think one can do it objectively. Rereading a game will never be the same as playing with someone in a game. When you reread, you lose all sense of time, and timing makes all the difference.

Totally not the point. I said nothing about meta reads. However, when someone takes the time to read someone else's game to get a better grasp of someone's behavior in order to read them, it is indicative of town. Scum sometimes read meta for ways to exploit people so it can happen. But, typically this is town behavior. It has nothing to do with meta and that you should read him as meta. Town tend to research people to make more informed decisions about alignment though. That's my point.

Oh, if you meant it that way around, I don't think the time invested in a game is indicative of allignment. I don't think it's uncommon for scum to show that they put a lot of effort in, it's in the end the easiest way to "prove" you are town. In the end, one can use a lot of time to say very little of importance. I'd expect town to read people's games, and I'd expect scum to fake it.

[flinter]

Yes, you deserve to be voted if you are voting me, you meanie

[flinter]

Do you feel that way? Why don't you ask him. I iso's FuDuzn today and he's been pushing on him a bit. Crypto also said he's either a troll or scum. Why would you just assume that it's based on something outside this game?

I thought policy lynches never had anything to do with the game by definition. It's a good thing that it was a temporary thing. I like crypto when he's trying to make things happen.

I could see your point, if there wasn't already a heaping amount of suspicion on my slot and if we weren't having a discussion about my alignment and my wagon. If that wasn't in question, and I was just walking around going guys look at me I'm town dont' you see it. Then there'd be a problem. When I get into discussion with people about my alignment, I tell them I'm town. It's a playstyle thing. So, if you are choosing to lynch me over this, you're choosing to lynch me based on playstyle.

I fear I didn't see it in the game where you replaced in and were suspected of being the SK (but were town).

So, tell me flinter, if I were scum and I was oh so scared of getting lynched and you'd expressed concern over an aspect of my playstyle, would I change that to be a bit more compliant in hopes of getting you to stop voting me? Pretty sure I'd be a little bit more aware of my behavior and a bit more compliant.

I'll tell you when I know you a bit better!

No, uh-uh. You are going to have to do better than this. You might be scum but you might be town. There is no might about it; I will flip town. <------- Check out that obnoxious insistence.

You'd be sorry to see me go? You'll have to come up with something better than what you have. At my wake, you don't get to dab your eyes with a tissue and go, but she said she was town I thought that meant she had to be scum.

The good thing of this forum is that if you go, I could maybe play with you later in another game (if you'd like to). But I don't think the fact that I'd like to play with you should stop me from lynching you when I think I have good chances to hit scum.

In his posts to me, he already assumed you would flip town, he only considers the case that you do and I look bad because of it. And it doesn't hurt to keep all thoughts in my head, that's just what makes this game fun! Everything we do could be done as town and as scum, but as we add things up, add a little of what our heart gives us in, we might just hope to figure it all out, to make sense of it!

That's what happens when you have a town read on someone, flint. Are you trying to say he's scum because he has a town read on someone? I've fought against lynches of people I have strong town reads on all the time. Sometimes I don't allow for the possibility that they are scum. Do you never have strong reads? Peta has a strong scum read on Armaggedon and was insistent about it. Why did you not find it suspicious that he seemed to not allow for the possibility that my slot is town? Wouldn't that presuppose previous knowledge on his account? Why is only working suspect for this?

Oh, I have strong reads. They are a bit rare on day one, though. The problem here is that there are probably three players who know for certain that the rest is town. Being insistent about someone being scum isn't so damning, but scum could actually reason from the position where they already know they are right. I'm still worrying that that was what manju did there.

Okay! Did you have a discussion about Armaggedon? Let's check!!! Hmmm....looking through iso. Nope! You commented on something Servanto said in Post 388 in which epm mentions Armaggedon. Then you vote Armaggedon in your next post Post 429 BECAUSE PETA SAID YOUR READS WERE BAD. Like this is pretty much the definition of compliant scum. You realized that your Parama/Working "suspicions" were going nowhere, and at the first sign of someone telling you your reads are bad, you caved and followed him.

I was voting the current counterwagon, evilpacman, if I recall correctly. They might have gone somewhere. And yes, I was compliant, yes I did it because peta said I was on the wrong track. History tells me he could very well be right, I'm not the best scumhunter in the world. If peta is right, I've made the correct move. If peta was wrong, I still could be about evilpacman as well. It wouldn't be the first time I was wrong about evilpacman.


But tammy, we aren't going anywhere with this. You don't like my vote and you are already voting me for it. I fear people don't like these walls, and truth to be said, although they clarify what I did and why I voted, this was already in the thread. They don't help anyone that much.

[flinter]

It speaks to a too-consistent mindset, which scum often have because they are unable to change their minds based on new posts and information. I got busted as scum once this way. Someone had behaved in an outrageously scummy way at the start of the day and I got a wagon going on him. However, he started towntelling all over the place by mid day one, but because I was scum I was being stubborn and kept trying to get him lynched even though all the evidence suggested that he was town and everyone was reading him that way. My over-consistency on my reads and my refusal to take into account new information is in part what ended up getting me lynched instead that day. This is exactly the type of behavior I'm seeing from you.

Not only that but the reasons for your reads are extremely shallow and kind of silly. Your holding onto this idea that because I've told you I'm town or said things about me being town is evidence of scum or further confirmation is rather silly. You can't really come up with any reason for why I'm really scum, you just think I am! I've noticed your scum reads are like this with others. Parama bugged you by being Parama, and therefore because working thought I would flip town and called you out for being opportunistic, which you were, you think he's scum. Your vote on pacman was likewise rather flimsy and also Jordan might be scum.

I am aware that tells like you use in the first paragraph exist. I'm using the myself rather often, I think they are accurate. However, with 4 scumreads out on day one, and my vote shifting between them, I don't think you apply that tell on the correct case.

I'm a bit offended that you call me shallow and silly, but I hope it's just in game. "You can't really come up with any reason for why I'm really scum, you just think I am!" is key. It's completely correct. You did replace in as mafia this game.

[flinter]

someone is getting toyed with.

Gregory, dear, I wish you would talk more. What objection do you have to a tammy lynch here?

I'll come over, and show you

vote evilpacman

Without joking, EPM should talk more as well. Contrary to Gregory, he doesn't have the luxury of seeming townie from the posts he has made.

[flinter]

I fear I'm not understanding what you said in the last paragraph... I have had little to no interaction with bvoigt, and in the walls which went back and forth between tammy and me I kept talking. The problem is that she's scum and I think I know it. The debate where she keeps saying that she isn't isn't helping. Asking me over and over again why I'm voting her, but saying after that that I'm wrong because she is town isn't fun, and nobody wants to read it.

Which is why I'm voting evilpacman right now. That gives tammy another target to bug, which is bvoigt at the moment apparently. One wonders why she keeps calling herself town and keeps arguing till people unvote her, but I digress.

[flinter]

I find it interesting people prefer their vote on someone who hasn't posted much , and isn't much information about yet (pine, armageddon, denisatp, doomyoshi) over someone openly scummy like EPM?

I also find it interesting that the people who had the least reason to vote armageddon/tammy stayed the longest on the wagon (bvoigt, flinter, scumhunter). All those 3 voted Armageddon kinda without a solid reason.
1 last thing. Tammy has posted a lot, really a lot. Reread the whole game and stuff, commented on it. All cool.
so why hasen't she mentioned EPM once? I mean, he had 4 votes on him, was the biggest wagon till some guys jumped over to her. How come she plays like he doesn't exist. I could understand when it's someone who's semi-lurking or just not in the spotlights, but we can't say the second about Evilpacman.

What do you think, gregory?

To me it seems tammy just has different priorities then actually finding scum. She's rather in survival mode.

[flinter]

Seriously people iso flinter. If you don't see a steaming pile of fluffy crap, I'll eat my hat. Everything is "I think I don't agree, I'm not sure I don't know, I fear I don't know." Like you agree or you fucking don't. Stop putting it off on other people.

Seriously, why aren't more people voting flinter???????

flinter is actually trying to be scummy, and she's doing a pretty good job. You used this argument on yourself, why would you play like this as scum? well, same for flinter, why would she play like this as scum? I have no freaking clue, no read on her as all the shit is fake, same as with you. I need a lynch and a death tonight to know more, kinda stuck right now.

Well, Tammy would be my preferred lynch, but it's probably not happening at this point.

UNVOTE: Tammy
VOTE: Scumhunter

I don't like it. You've been sheeping crypto and peta soo much. Wether you're town or scum, it doesn't matter. It anoys me. Maybe you just agree on everything they say. Maybe you just don't care and don't want to be suspected by them.
I don't get the wagon on scumhunter. I really don't.

Gregory, you sound like a smart person. And you sound like a town one. Try to follow me here, because although I'm quite sure it makes sense, it's fiddly.

When you are scum, at some point you have to fake you are scumhunting. As long as this game is subjective, this will be possible. You won't find scum not making a case. Everybody, everywhere will always have a way to call something scummy, whether it's actually done by scum or not. However, when things are fake or not, it's the motivation behind them that matters. Ultimately, it's the difference between believing you'll lynch scum or pushing a wagon while knowing it's on town.

You could abuse this in several ways, as there are several things different about them. In one, you are lynching someone, in the other you are pushing a mislynch. One is based on hope, the other on knowledge. What hope does tammy have with my lynch? Even if she'd

pushed

it for all the logical reasons, she doesn't believe I'm scum, and the results are here. Sure I can be lynched, but I very much doubt it'll happen here. Some people have expressed to see me town, some have expressed that they rather take a look at me after a night. It's a hopeless wagon, still she pushes it. She asks people "what they think about me", or how they can ever see this and that action as town. You are right in that someone is faking, because this tammy on this wagon is playing the shouting person who tells the town of what evil is about to come, and nobody listens. While logical reasons are called, at no point she throws herself in with all her soul, in the end she voted me because I didn't give a reason when I got on that wagon. And when I turn up town? Bvoigt is already ready as a substitute.

Beyond the annoying "I'm town" calling, the love for endless questions "why did you vote me" and pushing two mislynches (because yes, bvoigt has been town all game), the fact that tammy completely fails to believe what she is doing, and I know that's hard to grasp, makes her scum here. Compare town games of her where she lynches people full of hope that they'll turn up as scum to how she plays here and you'll see the obvious difference.

Join me gregory, I wouldn't dare to fool you here.

vote tammy

[flinter]

She uses logic in a more distant way then in her other games.

She is cold and calculating here, not in her town games.

[flinter]

It's not about being wrong. People are wrong all the time, but she's spouting wrong bullshit and she knows it because she doesn't actually care about determining whether or not what she's spouting is the truth and that's pretty clear from the basket of fluff she's written in response to me since I replaced in. Scum don't care about determining someone's alignment accurately, and this is what I'm getting from everything she says. If I thought for one second, she was actually trying to determine people's alignments or figure out if I'm scum or town, I'd probably be swayed to think she might be town. But, she's no and nothing of the fluff scum crap she's written reads genuine at all.

That basket of failsauce is pretty good at reading me...that was my only point. Flinter definitely doesn't know my meta enough to meta me and figure out my alignment. Not many people here do.

Eh. I have some lazy tendencies from time to time. Sometimes I make generalizations without enough evidence. It's not stellar play. but I mean so what? Does it make her scum? Isn't she entitled to her opinion? Why are you getting so freaking mad at one person's opinion?

I can get why you could be frustrated to some extent. But certainly not to the extent you are frustrated. Only explanation for that is a pure unmitigated estrogen explosion.

Gregory had the right explanation: tammy is faking it.

[flinter]

If someone wants to believe I'm scum, fine, but stop basing it off of crap that you can't possibly get right if you don't know how to read me or test me to get a proper read. This meta thing is just annoying. I come from a small site in which we play behind alts for nearly every game. You can't out your alt nor can you use meta reasoning. Sure, we figure out who is behind some alts at times and that influences our reads, but we can't use it as evidence.

But here we can tammy, and I like to use that, with your permission.

[flinter]

I read a couple of your games, why wouldn't that be enough?

[flinter]

Yes, I know site differences are site differences and I have to adjust but it does not change the fact that if you do not know me and you've only seen a couple of game you can not meta me with any degree of accuracy. (There are probably some exceptions of people who are pretty good at reading people, but still Flinter is not one of those people.)

I will say it again. You cannot meta me when you a.) don't have enough information to meta me off of b.) don't have personal experience with me c.) don't know how to read me.

To think that for one second you do have any of a, b, or c is ridiculous.

I've read a couple of your games, why wouldn't this be enough?

[flinter]

I fear I don't believe you, tammy. I wish I could

[flinter]

If you don't understand how I play, I fear that is my problem. Mafiascum tends to play with their head, I play more with my heart. That's why I started the last post towards you, gregory, with something in the essence of "please try to read this, it makes sense to me". I think, if you want an accurate read on me, you have to try to find out if my heart is in what I do. I played one game knowingly as scum here, and it was different. People thought I was town for lying, which was fun to me for a while, but my heart wasn't in it. Playing scum is rather an empty business to me, there is no fun of discovery in it.

I was slightly surprised that Tammy called pretty much anything I said in the conversation with her scummy. That hasn't happened to me in my games very often. Generally people try to understand. I thought, and still think, that that was rather influenced by the fact that I was voting her.

While I was surprised about that, that's all in the game. It can happen. But I'm slightly annoyed that people would call me dumb, dense or anything alike. If you don't understand how someone is playing, there are two ways about it. Either you try to get a read on that person, or you call the player you don't understand dumb. I think it's incredibily shortsighted of people to simply call everybody they can't understand dumb. Unless you are scum, of course, then it doesn't matter.

I kinda hope for you as well that you are scum, tammy. Then insults are all part of the game. I thought you were a nice person, and I think that town-tammy would try to get a read on me rather then insult me.

[flinter]

I voted evilpacman as well, called bvoigt town, called you town in the last 10 posts.

Otherwise, some old reads still stand even though I haven't repeated them in the last couple of posts. I think Peta is town, crypto is town, have no read on scumhunter, don't trust manju (you can consider that a FoS), although I didn't mind denis, I didn't think jordan was town. As of such, I have no interest in lynching scumhunter or yoshi. There are too many options of players I do consider scummy in some way to support a lynch of my neutral reads.

[flinter]

hey, mind your language...

And lets get a (late) counterwagon going.

vote evilpacman

[flinter]

I actually think there's a good chance the scum team is flinter/Working Manju/Shinori, though my other scum reads still stand. This just seems like the most plausible TEAM I've come up with.

How does this team fit with the wagon on Parama (the slot manju has currently)?

[flinter]

I actually think there's a good chance the scum team is flinter/Working Manju/Shinori, though my other scum reads still stand. This just seems like the most plausible TEAM I've come up with.

How does this team fit with the wagon on Parama (the slot manju has currently)?

Expand

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p4154027

Does that sound like bussing or distancing to you? I don't think you thought very well about your scumteam.

[flinter]

How does that vote and case make sense with me and manju on the same team? Please answer me that pacman. Because you quite clearly didn't think your team through very well.

[flinter]

Oh here's a good joke:

Shinori's posts

Screw the benefit of the doubt. Frankly, watcher isn't a good enough role to merit not lynching him because he has a PR. I question Shinori's ability to use it effectively, so my vote stays.

Gregory get back on Shinori, I'll feel better with you going to sleep with your vote there.

Why is evilpacman trying to lynch a watcher, one of the more confirmable roles?

Peta, could it just be that I was right all along?

Whatever. I'll swap to doom if we want. But I still prefer SH but apparently that's not happening and I'm definitely not voting myself.

Which leaves doom yoshi or EPM of which I think EPM is more scummy than doomyoshi but I doubt that will happen either.

I'm there for you baby

[flinter]

at the end of the page, below the quick reply box, there's a menu where you can choose of who you want to read. Pick your name, click go. Use the [+] if you want to read 2 players but only those two.

[flinter]

Flinter, Shinori is probably lying. The tone of his posts read to me as "I'm gonna claim power role so don't lynch me". Can you please vote DoomYoshi? EPM is not getting lynched today and we are running out of itme.

How about this. If we have a protective role like doctor they are on Shinori tonight. Shinori "watches" himself. If he can't confirm who visited him he dies tomororw? Watchers can watch themselves ya? He can just say "someone visited me" or "no one visited me" first tomororw

we'll know tomorrow. Regardless. If he doesn't actually know what's going on, then his results just have a large chance to be wrong. Lets not selfwatch, and lets not direct him.

[flinter]

of the options I have here I think I want scumhunter to go the most... but I fear he'll end up as town.

vote scumhunter

goodnight.

[flinter]

oh well, doomyoshi it is.

vote doomyoshi

And now I'm really going to sleep. Im so tired.

[flinter]

oh, people want my blood, I see that's too bad.

It's a shame that this day is pretty much over, but tomorrow I'll try to convince you that there are better lynches then me.

For today, I agree

vote shinori

[flinter]

I can confirm the result, I didn't go anywhere this night.

I'm slightly surprised by crypto's dead, I had expected a couple to go before him. I assume the kill not going through night 1 affected this. Further, I fear I'll have to reread. These long nights and the short day in between rather messed with my memory. In a true omgus kind of fashion, I really dislike tammy's and Evilpacmans posts here. One feels the need to point out I'm not confirmed town, the other even straight up pushes for me.

[flinter]

ok, rereading, first mostly focusing on pine. For quite some time he voteparks on crypto while being wishy washy about Fuduzn and Bvoigt. For both he gives reasons for either side but doesn't make a move until he finally makes a rather weak vote on Fuduzn. I think we can consider Fuduzn obvious town from that. That are pretty clear scumpoints for Bvoigt as well, which is a shame since that would mean I was wrong there.

Pines interaction with crypto is rather obvious, so that does make last nights kill a bit more sensible, for what it's worth. It might be hard to find, but it could be that scum were rather worried with Pine's actions against crypto while that was going on. That counts against manju scum, since parama was on the same wagon (pine followed him on crypto). Wrong there again, I guess.

...

But Working manju tammy and Crypto for town.

...

Assuming I'm right when reading pine, this means he listed three and would they all be town? I kinda doubt it. Scumpoints for tammy here.

Which leaves shinori's prefered lynch, scumhunter. I'd say he's town.

In short:

town, in order: scumhunter, fuduzn, manju
scum, in order: tammy, bvoigt

which leaves evilpacman, denisatp, gregory, and petapan, which were barely mentioned. I had a townread on the last two, I'm pretty sure. Peta has a strong townread on pacman, which leaves tammy, denis and bvoigt.

This should worry me, because day 1 the counterwagon to armageddon (tammy) was evilpacman. If that was town vs scum, there should be scum on evilpacman. The wagon was: Scumhunter, servanto (yoshi), Gregory, FuDuzn... in my opinion 4 townies. The hypothesis that gregory is town is wrong, or the hypothesis that tammy is scum and evilpacman town.

more tonight.

[flinter]

I think I mind for now, these short days break me up a little.

Peta, you said I was wrong last time, could you tell me a little specifically what you thought of my last post?

[flinter]

I agree completely with you Gregory. For me, this leaves two people I'd like to lynch... and practically only townreads other then that. I'd be up for tammy and denisatp, and well, that would be awesome if they were both scum. I'd really love that.

[flinter]

vote:flinter

manju's tracking for tonight sealed the deal. Her play has been scummy as hell the whole game allready, though at first I thought she was doing that intentionally. Well, only reason to do that as town is when you have a PR and don't want to be mister #1 town. Well, manju has blown away that theory.

I should think less and listen to my gut more. lynch flinter. its k. pretty sure she's scum.

I don't think I get this. I'm also slightly insulted that you say I've been playing scummy intentionally. I fear I was rather invested in a pointless debate with tammy, which became largely pointless because nobody was prepared to make a decision about it.

But here we are, and I'm fine with this duality.

vote tammy

Tammy, I meant just that OMGUSing on Day 3 seems a bit weird. And there is not enough support to lynch you(and my guess is there is probably not a vig), so here we are, together on the same wagon. Maybe we can dance again now, but in a more friendly way.

Also Peta, if flinter is scum then it is game over since denis/gregory would be last scum. If flinter is town then it gets more complicated, Tammy probably is scum them but no guarantee. And then one, or both, of denis/gregory is scum.

This is assuming of course that you are town(which I still believe) and the claims up to this point are to be believed. Which, of course, you told me they should be believed.

I'll say that I think gregory is town here. I'd totally be up for a denis lynch later.

[flinter]

Tammy.

If flinter is town you do realize I'm gonna have to stand down and lynch you right?

Heh...you say that as if I think about things like that. Maybe it's a difference in site culture, but that kind of crap doesn't matter where I play. Mislynches are mislynches and they get looked at for their honesty. I've pushed my fair share of mislynches and held my own against the fallback the next day. I've never once been lynched because of a lynch I pushed. If you can't see that I've thought she was scum since replacing in, then welp.

I'm not going to succomb to some, oh you might get lynched if that's a mislynch, fear keeping me from pushing a lynch I believe in.

So, yeah no, couldn't care less.

Although pacman, aren't you the one who told FuDuzn to vote flinter and not move? So not following your logic here.

Someone just wrote a whole post just to say that she shouldn't be lynched

when

I flip town. Because the way tammy posts here, it's not "if" I flip town, it's when. Someone knows already she's pushing a mislynch.

I'm sorry tammy, you put up a great fight, it was nice of you to replace into a bad spot, but you are scum here and we should lynch you.

[flinter]

it's got a sort of smug cockiness to it without really trying to defend anything from the 4 votes that piled on her. that's what i don't like

and how does consistency equate to being town?

I can answer the last one, it doesn't. Further, I'm not trying to be smug, I'm sorry that you read that in my posts anywhere.

As for the not defending, I think I can explain that. I feel tammy picked me because I was voting for her, and thought to have caught her. Regardless of whether I'm right, the discussion about that has been long enough and hurt the game. Nor do I feel like convincing tammy tammy that she's wrong, since I think she's scum. It would be a rather pointless exercise, she wouldn't want to be convinced. Pacman's last addition to his case on me is the thing below... And to be honest I don't understand it, but I didn't want to ask, one vote wasn't important at that point.

For today, I agree

vote shinori

Are you seriously going for bvoigt over someone who FELT THE NEED TO APPROVE LYNCHING SOMEONE WHO CLAIMED SCUM

vote: flinter

Fuduzn voted me when pacman asked for it. Little I can do about that. I don't think he's scum, he just followed the wrong person there. Which leaves gregory, who's gutread is that I'm faking when I post. He's wrong, but there's little I can do to convince him that he is.

Leaving that, all I can do is post what I can analyse, and make the correct vote in my opinion. I think the remaining scum are tammy and dennis, and I voted accordingly. In many posts I've already told you that tammy is scum, be it with meta arguments, logical points, whatever you like best.

Peta, I'm sorry if you expect more from me, but I think I've tried my best here, I think I have a read on most people, and almost all explained. All but two were town, and on tammy I had a scumread.

[flinter]

I fear I missed that question. Tammy had referred to a game of hers where she replaced in and was under serious suspicion of being a SK (which she wasn't). I forgot which game it was, but that was one I specifically read again when tammy referred to it. I'm sure tammy knows which game I mean. I think the difference between that game and this one is quite notable.

[flinter]

scumhunter asked for a specific game where we didn't see you using logic as a barrier, being cold and calculating. I think that's specific enough.

[flinter]

but I'm town

[flinter]

denis - who knows? peta says troll town, so meh, follow peta I guess.

Apart from the fact that tammy's scumlist consists of 2 players who can hardly be tied to our first scumlynch (Fuduzn and scumhunter both have things going in favor of them being town in relation to pine/shinori), the above is making me tunnel a lot. I would almost say she's trying to fool us here as I doubt tammy would give away her partner so easily.

I think people would have to look no further then this post of tammy to get convinced she's scum. Her believes are so much out of line compared to the rest of the game, her scumreads are on players who are quite obviously town. If you didn't believe it before, just look at this posts here and see scum who's struggling with a town which has too many townreads already.

[flinter]

flinter who are your reads on scum besides tammy then + why

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p4217242
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p4221262

These two posts contain my latest reads petapan. Which means I think the final scumteam is denis and tammy. I've talked about Tammy enough, and the rest of the players is town for various reasons. Which would suit me fine, I guess. It would mean I was right about Jordan all along, and that would feel great!

[flinter]

and that's the second time tammy knows I'm town

Do me a favor, and don't lynch Peta and Gregory. They've been townreads of mine all game. I think denis and tammy are the last scum, but tammy most clearly (denis by poe). Please, don't forget me!