Mini 1368 (Game Over)

[Paschendale]

Vote: Nobody Special

for having low self esteem.

[Paschendale]

Cheery's fluffy geometry posting is distracting at best. Active lurking at worst.

[Paschendale]

Lupo, Paschendale, do you have a read on CD?

I'm not really sure what he's doing. But other than ensure that we don't know how to approach him, he doesn't seem to be pushing any kind of agenda. But as I said, possibly active lurking.

I'm also not sure about Pecanpie's miller claim. Those will be important details to keep in mind when evaluating them later.

Interesting that Melmond joined in the weird triangle/circle talk.

[Paschendale]

I've been gone for much of the weekend because I had company. I didn't expect to be as completely away as I have, but I was sick also.

On Cheery Dog: His notion that Basketballstar is scummy over a disagreement about definitions of geometry is dumb. But I don't know if it's scummy. That he hasn't come up with any other reasons to further his suspicion make it seem almost like a joke. He's not trying to convince anyone to vote along with him. I don't see his geometry stuff as scummy.

On Melmond: I'm seeing a theme of holding back and staying out of scrutiny from Melmond. Very safe play. And then he hops on the Cheery Dog wagon, which as I said earlier is a bad one.

On FUT: I don't see a fundamental difference between saying you have a null read and saying "I don't think he is scum." Grammatically, "I don't think he is scum" is the inverse of "I think he is scum." The meaning is that the thought that "he is scum" is not in speaker's mind. I don't think this is a slip, but merely a different way of speaking. FUT is, however, grammatically correct. Saying "I don't think he is scum" is NOT the same thing as saying "I think he is town." If that's a common scumtell that I just don't know about, then that's different. But in terms of proper language, the attacks on FUT over this are wrong.

On Triangle and Idiotking's attacks on FUT: Really feels like grasping at straws. Picking a something to harp on and then going for it relentlessly. The attacks on FUT are probably the scummiest thing going on right now. And I think Idiotking's attacks have been more forced. Triangle is right that getting upset is not necessarily scummy. But Idiotking insists that it is.

Unvote
Vote: IdiotKing

[Paschendale]

I do that everywhere, and when I do it it's usually because I'm unsure of the merit in what I'm saying.

So then why don't you just say that your reads are still forming, and say what you think, instead of going off on weird tangents?

[Paschendale]

Unvote

for now. We're done talking about linguistics. More to follow tonight.

[Paschendale]

You know who really hasn't had much to say? And less that's useful? Nobody Special. Literally only one post with any serious content, and a very dangerous L-1 vote with basically no reasoning. Only a defensive comment to justify that his vote isn't scummy. Yeah, it's tough to agree with people's existing comments because you'll be accused of sheeping, but at least have a reason! Not just one sentence of largely discredited justification.

Vote: Nobody Special

[Paschendale]

There's an interesting take, Mr. Pie Man. Hellhound's reason for voting does seem a little thin, and pressure votes don't really work if you announce them as such. And his talk of intentionally withholding information... because other people have been doing the same. That's a destructive pattern. Townies need to go out on a limb to find scum. Playing it safe won't do it. I still think NS is more suspect right now, but Hellhound could be rising to the number 2 spot.

[Paschendale]

At the moment, only Nobody Special has done anything overtly scummy. Maybe it's too obvious? It's the people who try to get others killed without good reason that seem the most suspect to me. A dangerous vote, unnecessary tunneling, or just being trigger happy tend to be scummiest in my experience. If people had continued pursuing FUT, for example, over his grammatical choices, that would have seemed scummy to me. Suspicions, even half formed ones, are just part of scumhunting. But when you take actions to back them up, that's when it gets real. My ideal day 1 lynch is somebody who overplays their hand trying to support a wagon with a thin case. The closest to that thus far as been Nobody Special. But given his insistence that his internet isn't working so he can't defend himself, I wouldn't want it to happen anytime soon.

What about you, Mr. Pie? What's your ideal and why?

[Paschendale]

The inactivity doesn't help. It's withholding information from town that would be really helpful, but mainly it was the vote. L-1 with no reasoning. The fact that he's not contributing at all is only making it worse.

[Paschendale]

Unvote
Vote: Hellhound

Triangle and Pie make very good arguments, and it's difficult to continue to pursue NS with nothing to examine. Punish him for lurking later. Focus on what could be more useful now.

[Paschendale]

Triangle and Pie make very good arguments, and it's difficult to continue to pursue NS with nothing to examine. Punish him for lurking later. Focus on what could be more useful now.

Why vote Hellhound when their posts were about Lupo?[/quote]

Triangle's 128 and Pie's 168 were the ones I was referring to, mainly.

[Paschendale]

Day one scumreads are always weaker than later ones. Nobody can be as sure in the early game, so having more scumreads is almost necessary. The point is to see who is leaning scummy and sort out if those leans are strong enough to pursue. To think that one's first few scumreads are going to be correct and not allow that there would need to be re-evaluation seems misguided to me.

[Paschendale]

I don't really see the case on Lupo. Not being trigger happy is a good thing, I think. Even if he wasn't supremely certain of NS being scummy, he did vote for him. But apparently no one else really sees it either, since almost no one is voting for him. That's good. I think Hellhound and NS are WAY better choices.

The reason I'm currently on Hellhound, rather than NS, is that Hellhound has put stuff out there. He's made assertions. He's put forth theories. And they've been bunk. Plus, while it's not good to give too much weight to associations on day 1, Hellhound has been one of the few who was willing to defend NS. His 93 could be seen as a coaching prod for NS, though that might be a little bit of a stretch. His insistence on following the CD wagon after it was pretty much over seems like trying to get a mislynch in, too. Then his vote on NS is sheepish, and only emphasizes the lurking. A lurking scumpartner is the one you'd want to bus.

Meanwhile, NS is suspect for one vote (a very bad one) and then being lurk-y. Both are scummy, but Hellhound is moreso. Plus if HH flips scum, then it will be easier to tell about NS. The opposite is not true.

[Paschendale]

If you are saying my miller claim is a "cover" and you are yet to see my book, perhaps you would like to provide some analysis of my other posts? You know, the ones that don't involve talk about miller claims. There's plenty of them to draw upon. From the manner in which you've made your suspicion on me I'm assuming you're drawing upon evidence outside of my miller claim, which makes me look scummy. Would you mind telling me where that is?

If you really are a miller, you were right to claim. I think it's not reason to give you a town pass or not. I think it's just reason not to investigate you.

Let me tell you how it is my scummy chum. That chainsaw FoS you pulled on me is the most baseless opportunistic bullshit I have seen so far in this game.

No it's not. He just doesn't believe you without proof. That's not suspicious.

The credibility of your vague PR claim and your early-game waffling palmed off as "reaction testing" is hanging by a thread.

That is suspicious.

So tell me, why shouldn't I be suspicious of you?

Don't fly off the handle and go all OMGUS just because someone is scumhunting in your direction. If there's serious flaws, address that. But it's not scummy to doubt someone's credibility.

[Paschendale]

I have a little cake icon! ^_^

[Paschendale]

It is very frustrating when you top scumreads disappear and there's nothing new to say about them.

[Paschendale]

Flaking is a null tell. I don't understand why everyone feels so rushed.

We were rushed, but with Hellhound seeking a replacement, the deadline is suspended. So now we're not. But we're also just waiting around.

[Paschendale]

@pappumsrat, The replacement does not have Hellhound's personality, does he? We cannot lynch him while a replacement is searching because:
1. Hellhound has poor defenses, replacement might have strong ones.
2. We cannot judge a replacement by the last user that had his/her role.

You most assuredly can. They have the same alignment. One obviously cannot explain all the actions of another, but the alignment reads should carry over. This is a very contrived and factually incorrect defense of Hellhound's slot.

BBS is trying too hard with the Hellhound lynch, first with the overly-justified hammer and then with his flip-floppiness about Hellhound's replacement. I think a Hellhound lynch would give more information about BBS and other players than vice versa, so for that reason I still prefer lynching him today. I'm equally good with a BBS or Lupo lynch as second choice, though.

I WAY prefer a BBS lynch to a Lupo one (Hellhound's slot is still my top pick, though). For the reasons you state here and the ones I discuss above. BBS is trying really really hard to protect Hellhound's slot.

[Paschendale]

I didn't really see anything slimy in Pie's question to the mod. If we had agreed to kill Hellhound, then it would have been pointless to get a replacement, and kind of mean to whoever replaced in. "Welcome to the game! Now you're dead!" As it stands, Delibird might still have a really short tenure in this game.

[Paschendale]

That's for coming out, Delibird. Sorry it was such a short trip.

[Paschendale]

The point of a miller claim is so that he doesn't get killed later by a cop investigation. We have no more knowledge about him than anyone else that a cop doesn't investigate. Unless there's actually scummy things that Pie has done today, unrelated to the miller claim, that make him seem scummy, let's ignore it and try to lynch someone whose actions right now are suspect.

[Paschendale]

We have already lynched someone, right now we are talking about vigging pecanpie to free up a lynch that would otherwise have to be targeted at him.

Um... not we haven't.

I don't see the miller claim as scummy at all. One of the prevailing strategies is that millers are supposed to D1 claim. I see no reason to focus on it. Just ignore it an evaluate Pie on everything else. It only matters later on. For example, if it turns out we have no cop? Then he's toast. His miller claim should neither protect him nor condemn him.

[Paschendale]

BBS: Minimal posting, even less content. He has ONE vote after RVS and this is his given reason.

Thanks. I see how he is scummy. He waffled over L-1 vote, as killerjester had a good point: he changed his opinion on NS, avoiding many questions, and has not helped so much to town.

Either Hellhound or Lupo are good lynches. I think NS has played silently, but is, as I said, calm and patient. I still have a null read on NS.

I don't know who is scummier, though, but I'll vote Lupo because I don't want some mislynch here if someone hammers Hellhound cause he's at L-2.

What? Hellhound and Lupo are good lynches... but he doesn't want anyone to hammer Hellhound? Sense. It is not made here.

Vote: Basketballstar24

[Paschendale]

Hmmm, diving straight into wagons and no comment on the lack of nightkill?

No comment on the Hellhound flip either? In regards to this, a Lupo wagon makes no sense since a lot of his scumminess was from associative tells with Hellhound.

Well, what do you think about it? It could be indicative of all sorts of things. There could be a doc, there could be a jailkeeper, there could be a bulletproof, or scum could have chosen not to kill. There's no evidence whatsoever to promote or exclude any of those possibilities. What is there to say?

[Paschendale]

That Lupo was correct and Hellhound flipped town gives Lupo a strong townread in my mind.

[Paschendale]

No, but close. You're scum for being on a wagon that wasn't going anywhere

Not scummy, lots of people were on the NS wagon. Not finding a better one isn't scummy.

and literally doing nothing at all while Hellhound was lynched.

Neither is not trying to stop the popular wagon if you disagree with it. People are allowed to form their opinions slowly and don't have to play at your pace.

A town player might've actually shown concern if they saw a townread of theirs getting lynched!

Says you. That presumes a strong read with the means to back it up.

They might engage with the other players

Some people are quiet. Chill. Though Lupo did say that he didn't agree with it.

try to start a viable counter-wagon

If he suspects one.

push for a lynch of a player they're hoping will flip scum.

If he had another suspect.

You did nothing of the sort. You didn't even have the conviction to declare him a townread.

Cuz maybe Lupo didn't have a strong townread on him. Weak reads happen in this game. A lot. Do you have a strong townread on every player except for the two you think are scum and you'll go nuts trying to defend them? No. Not every action in this game comes from burning conviction. I'd think you would know that.

IIRC, instead of giving a definitive read on him you simply stated the cases on him were bad cases.

If you recall? Why didn't you go and look. He only has 23 posts. But here's another example. I'm not willing to give a definite read on Lupo. I think he's towny, but I don't know. But your case against him is manufactured nonsense. It's all "town would do this" and "town would do that". Your entire case is that he's not as active as you'd like. Yeah, being absent from a bit of the end of day 1 is weird... but that alone is not suspicious, and the other things you cite are sheer nonsense.

Let's talk about active lurking, though. You popped in and asked a lot of fluffy questions so it looked like you were scumhunting... but then you didn't work with any of the answers you were given. You tunneled Lupo from the start and didn't offer a single opinion until you sheeped KK's argument and spat it out at me. And it was ridiculously weak, and based off of 1) the very reasonable criticism of a L-1 vote without sufficient reason, and 2) asking for a claim from someone already at L-1. Those are both town things to do. Do you really have any idea how town and scum act?

And I think we all know which team has more incentive to skim over crucial L-1 votes.

I guess not, because NO ONE has any "incentive" to skip reading stuff and play specifically more passively. Scum and town play active or passive interchangeably.

You have been jumping on the least useful posts and claiming that they're huge giveaways, like Pie's question to the mod. It was incredibly innocuous and spoke more of just being polite to someone subbing in than anything else. But you had to go and make a big deal out of it. That's your play here. Making big deals out of nothing. You've posted nothing of any merit, and you're pretty clearly trying to lead town to lynch for astoundingly bad reasons.

This has been bugging me for a while, but I couldn't articulate it quite so well until now. Killerjester is WAY scum. Scummier even than BBStar.

Unvote
Vote: Killerjester

[Paschendale]

5 or 6 at most. You? 10.

[Paschendale]

I'm getting mixed feelings about Paschendales latest posts. I agree with some of it, but some of just seems like total crap. I'll get to that in a bit.

Mostly what seems like crap to me is some of the stuff you say to defend Lupo. I do think that lupo should have pushed a different way if he really thought the HH lynch was such a bad idea. The thoughts you had on Killerjester aren't bad though. You made a good case.

I basically have a null read on Lupo. But KJ made so many unfounded assumptions that it got my ire up. I was addressing his awful attacks, not really trying to defend Lupo. It was the idiocy of KJ's assumptions that I was trying to point out. Plus the argument of "if you were town, you wold have done ____" is a really stupid one. That assumes some kind of rote play by town, which everyone knows is not how this game works.

[Paschendale]

I can see Paschendale's argument about killerjester rehashing what KK said about Lupo (in KK's ISO posts 114 - 136 he argues his case with Lupo, predating killerjester's 206 and going over much of the same material), but something about Paschendale's 378 screams buddying to me. Maybe it's because the whole thing is dedicated to getting killerjester off of Lupo's back, I dunno.

I know it looks that way, but it was just the shoddy awful points against Lupo that set me off. I'll again say that I have a null read on Lupo.

[Paschendale]

I feel as though NS's post is missing something. But it's just that he's missing a vote. Is the case on NS still only that he's lurking?

As far as I can tell, yes.

[Paschendale]

Piffle. I'm scumhunting. Just because you don't agree with my methods doesn't mean they don't work.

And it's time to add some pressure:

Vote: basketballstar

Not because you think he's scum, but because you want to pressure him... So your vote is merely because it's a popular wagon. No thoughts or reasoning of your own.

You know, maybe there's more to a NS lynch than I thought...

[Paschendale]

Well, if there's clearly not going to be a Killerjester wagon, it's useless to hold out my vote. Plus he's kind of performed better since that one awful post.

Of the other three main wagons...

I'm sorry, I just don't see Lupo as scum. Most of the arguments for him just don't make sense. I think a lot of the reasons to vote for NS have been because of lurking, which seems like a poor reason to lynch someone over actual scummy targets. Plus, isn't he getting replaced? So, I'll put my vote back to BBS. He still looks scummier than the other two.

Unvote
Vote: Basketballstar

Probably won't have anything else to say tonight cuz I'm rather drunk. But I don't want to get in the way of ensuring that we have a lynch by the deadline.

[Paschendale]

We really should lynch BBS. As I said, though, I could go for Lupo.

I want to do those things less because you say you want to do them.

@KJ: How exactly does criticizing someone's argument mean that I must have an ulterior motive? Here's the scenario.

Person A: Lupo must be scum because of XYZ.
Pasch: You know, that's not a very good reason.
Person A: Pasch must want Lupo to survive!!

If I see a bad argument, I'm going to attack it. All of the defending Lupo that you see is in your own heads. If I see a good reason to kill him, I'll go with it.

I still think BBStar is the better lynch. He's stalling posting anything useful, he's spending an inordinate amount of time simply answering questions, not concocting any theories of his own. His "reads" list only contained 4 people, and only gave reads (both null) for 2 of them. I don't buy BBS' claim for even a second. He agreed to hammer Hellhound for no other reason than a bit of lurking. Not put the third or fourth vote on, but hammer. BBS isn't noobtown trying to get along. He's scum who knows that we'll let him off the hook for looking noobish.

[Paschendale]

Everybody hopped off the BBS wagon just as I got on it.

Well, I guess that means NS. He doesn't offer anything, and only pops in to defend himself. Guy's dead weight at best, cautious scum at worst.

Vote: Nobody Special

[Paschendale]

And also I think bbstar is newbtown, and someone with as much experience as NS should know better than to vote him for those reasons, when NS isn't doing shit either.

Giving someone a pass for doing something dumb is just like giving them a pass for lurking. If you don't punish it, then you give scum a way to hide. In my experience, people who do anti-town things consistently are scum, and when you dismiss them as just noobish, it tends to come back to bite you.

[Paschendale]

You think I'm defending Lupo when I'm actually just pointing out flaws in the arguments against him. That's kind of meaningless unless Lupo turns out to be scum. I don't want to waste a lynch and night phase on a wagon that looks wrong to me. I want to catch the actual scum.

I admit that I've been a little inconsistent about him, mind you. I gave him a strong townread in 374. That was probably far more certain that I really was. His actual content is pretty lackluster. It's only the nature of vote in day 1 that makes him lean town. But I do think that very clearly not lynching town is a decent reason to see someone as town. Of course, that will evaporate if NS flips town, since Lupo voted for NS, who is our prime suspect right now. You even admit how scummy NS looks. Choosing one town over another to lynch is equally towny or scummy. But if NS flips scum, then Lupo is essentially cleared. Why waste today's lynch on Lupo when NS looks scummier and that flip will tell us about Lupo?

[Paschendale]

Why wouldn't lynching the one who we think is more likely scum better?

[Paschendale]

I'm considering the weekend to be over. Although I understand the game is pretty slow, I expect players to keep their word.

NS loses points in my book

.

Lupo also seems MIA. Can't expect scum to play along I suppose.

This game seriously needs a night phase. Hammer it up.

Enough points to change your vote? If not, then I'll hammer. I don't see the benefit in dragging this out.

[Paschendale]

Fine, whatever. Maybe I'm wrong and we'll get lucky.

Unvote
Vote: Lupo