Mini 1420: The Beginning Of The End (Game Over)

[Elleran]

Don't you guys know that trolls regenerate?

Vote: q21

I hate numbers that are divisible by 7.

[Elleran]

Don't you guys know that trolls regenerate?

Are you defending him?

I didn't want to ride the wagon.

Since q is letter 17 of the alphabet the numeric value of my username is obviously 38. Since this isn't divisible by 7, Elleran's vote for me is clearly based on bogus logic as he scummily tries to pull the wool over the town's eyes. This cannot be allowed to stand.

vote: Elleran

Also, OMGUS!

Since you substituted 17 with the variable q, I must conclude that your name's value is actually multiplicative. It's 17 times 21, so 357. You can't trick me with bad math. I foresee you using this unique ability to present skewed probability in order to trick town in the future.

[Elleran]

This is TheTrollie's profile. Note the avatar. Trolley cars do not regenerate. You are now free to ride the wagon, Elleran.

Your logic is impeccable, Mr.Frog. Now I have seen the light.

Unvote: q21.
Vote: TheTrollie

[Elleran]

Aren't we all looking excuses for everything?

[Elleran]

@Elleran Why did you cave to pressure to hop on the Trollie wagon?

Aren't we all looking excuses for everything?

No, we're looking for scum.

1) There was no pressure to hop on the Trollie wagon -- only Mr.Frog's brilliance. However, I did see that TheTrollie was in fact a train and I wanted a ride.

2) To find scum, we must find good excuses for our actions.

[Elleran]

Sorry for the DP, but Elleran, you say you need good excuses to find scum.

1. That was hardly a good excuse for voting Trollie.

2. I still don't get why you changed your mind on him. I realize this is still RVS, but why did you think Trollie was a better vote than q21(who has actually posted).

By defeating q21 in Mathia, I figured that I had proven my superiority over him. I needed to go find another rival so I decided to move towns by riding the trolly train.

Had Mr.Frog not shown me the that there was in fact a train available, I would have stayed here depressed with no one to best in Mathia.




On a more serious note, we're still in RVS and I'm trying to figure out how people are reacting.

[Elleran]

@Elleran
What do you mean by that?

If you start saying things without good reasons past RVS, people are on to you immediately. To gain credibility, everyone is looking for excuses to say things.

I think the word most people use for a sophisticated excuse is "reason".

[Elleran]

I disagree. Excuse might carry more of a negative connotation but it's more honest. Reason is overused replacement word for excuse.

Town also uses excuse often. I also disagree on this. If town wants to accuse someone, they still have to reinforce their accusation with strong evidence or at least some sort of a lead. So it'll be similar to: "I accuse XXX because of YYY." Saying: "I accuse XXX" and leaving it hanging will lead to counter-accusations and loss of credibility. You can call it 'excuse" or 'reason', it doesn't matter to me. They are both trying to support an argument.

[Elleran]

I feel like in most of the games I've been in, I've caused the most RVS to end. Unfortunately, I've gotten myself initially targeted by doing so.

Yes, we're still in RVS. However, we're beginning to latch onto more concrete (or less abstract) evidence of scumminess.

If my opinion of "excuse" vs "reason" came off as suspicious or strange to you, then so be it. I suppose you can say that reason is the excuse for acting on a scumtell (or vice versa: excuse is the reason for acting on a scumtell), but it really comes down to whether that evidence is concrete or not. Yes, excuse implies a desire to take back a wrongdoing, but reason is also an

extremely

neutral, politically correct way of saying it. Personally, it doesn't matter so much. I'll probably end up saying both words interchangeably.

[Elleran]

Actually, I

do

see what Mr.Frog is talking about in the past that Jenn wrote. Jenn was shown a short evidence about Dannflor's suspicion on myself and Jenn responded by simply saying "Fair enough" then changing her vote on to me.

I disagree with Mr.Frog's quick change of votes, though. He made up his mind about Jenn on one of Jenn's earliest post in this thread. I smell scumminess from her post as well, but not nearly strong enough to be worth changing my vote to.

On the other hand, the fact that Mr.Frog changed his position so quickly

and

so confidently concerns me. Please explain your evaluation of the post you linked? If it's nothing beyond what I'm getting from it, your reaction was too much.

[Elleran]

On an unrelated side note...

are you a male or a female, DRK? I had been assuming that you're a guy, but your name has Kitty in it and it made me second guess myself.

[Elleran]

Now this I do see. But as I said before, Elleran did exactly the same thing, turning a 180 onto Trollies wagon based on something q21 said. It's exactly the same situation.

It was actually what Mr.Frog had said, not q21. q21 and I were playing Mathia, if you remember correctly. Mr.Frog had shown me the picture of TheTrollie (Who by the way has not posted a single time yet) and it made me realize that I really needed a ride, so I got aboard the TrollieTrain. Mr.Frog seems to have a way with revealing the deep mysteries of the universe.

PEDIT: Well... Knowing my own role, I do not find myself suspicious. This leads me to conclude that Jenn is more suspicious than I am.

[Elleran]

Elleran. I don't want any of your stupid excuse argument. I just want a straight answer. Why did you turn around and decide The Trollie was a better target than q21? If I'm not mistaken you were beating him is Mathia... I don't understand how MrFrog could have changed your mind so easily.

If you haven't noticed from all my brilliant posts, it was a complete random change for no good reason at all. I'm honestly getting bored from all of this grilling about changing my vote to Trollie on the first page of the game.

[Elleran]

I have to be away for a few hours, but when I come back, I'll try to type out my thoughts on the current state of the game.

[Elleran]

I feel so calm now

Elleran is probably scum; town don't look for excuses (or reasons) to vote people.

Okay, the second part about town not needing excuses or reasons to vote people is a complete BS. So you're telling me that I can say "I find XXX scummy. Vote: XXX" and people won't question me? No way. Not after the first page maybe. Town DOES look for excuses and reasons. In this game, excuses and reasons are what drive people to act, not withholding information or baseless claims.

===

I'm also going to answer all these floating questions regarding why I changed to TheTrollie so quickly: It was random because I had absolutely no read on anyone. Mathia with q21 was a lighthearted exchange that resulted in nulltells everywhere. Saying that I was onto something because of arguing over q21's name is a meaningless argument.

===

VOTE: Regarding Slandaar vs Om:

I'm leaning toward town for Slandaar. His analysis of Om's posts makes sense to me, as well as his rebuttal. Although some of his language is exaggerated, Slandaar is no longer relying on as much RVS evidence and more about Om's reactions and his language.

Starting from further back:

If he wants me to post there must be a reason behind it; it was 1 hour into game start so why does he want me to post? does he think I am not going to post without him voting me? (obviously not)

Slandaar is reasonable here. There still were and still are some players who have NOT posted a single thing yet, but Om and DannFlor pressed Slandaar to talk. rather than anybody else.

PEDIT: WOW... the rate at which Slandaar vs Om thing is developing is insane. I started writing this and realized that the whole thing concluded before I could finish my thought. I'll try to summarize my thoughts.

Okay...
Om defends himself by cross examining Slandaar and asking him to explain himself. However, Om's response was (as Slandaar stated) not well thought out.
Om's recent unvote is also scummy. From what I can see, it can either be one of the following two things:
1) Scum withdrawing his vote when under heavy pressure from Slandaar due to lack of evidence.
2) Townie withdrawing his vote because he doesn't think arguing to keep his vote isn't worth the effort.

I don't want to call a black and white answer (unlike Slandaar's claim that Om MUST be scum), but I am leaning toward number 1. To me, Om's been attacking Slandaar based on what Om perceives as random or strange responses to his questions. Because Om's original attack came from post 88 (the post basically attacks Slandaar based on his questions that he asked others), I find Om's attack to be weak. I found Slandaar's questions addressed to others perfectly reasonable and worth asking (such as someone's favorite role) and found your sudden attack on him suspicious. Continuing, Om continued to argue against Slandaar based on evidences that originated in a much earlier and god-forbid-RVS, Om was forced to either continue to argue and lose or unvote and become suspicious.

My final verdict? I find Om's actions to be scummy but I also feel like Om just put himself in a situation in which he could NOT escape without a negative consequence hitting him. Basically, he cornered himself, whether he's town or not. Not a complete scumtell, but a mistake worth noting.

Unvote: TheTrollie

(unvote because it's time to get off the train)

===

Regarding Jennifer and Dannflor:

As Mr.Frog has stated already, Jenn's post 22 came off as scummy (which I agreed with).

I get a sense that Jenn is reluctant to attack Dunnflor. She started off the bat by voting Dunn then switched off to me based on a vote change that was even more random that hers. Since then, she has continued to pursue me despite me having made clear that my vote change to Trollie was on a whim.

@Jennifer: Is there anything else you find scummy other than my vote on TheTrollie and my opinion on the usage of excuse vs reasons?

Anyway, she claims that she has finished probing Dannflor and has moved on. However, Dannflor also acknowledges nothing scummy about Jenn's posts. This comes off as extremely strange. Despite Jenn's willingness to change votes randomly, Dannflor keeps his vote on me and claims that I am definitely (even if just little more definitely than he finds Jenn) more scummy.

How did Jenn and Dann come to a sudden understanding between each other? Why are they both attacking me? I feel like their coordination is planned. This leads me to conclude that Jenn and Dann are potential scumbuddies. Yes, this is early in the game to start claiming scumbuddies, but this is just my speculation. I'll jot this down somewhere else too (in real life).

VOTE: Vote: Jennifer

Voting Jennifer over Dannflor because I want Jenn to talk. I understand that there's a wagon starting on Jenn, but I'm going to risk it anyway. I want some answers from her.

[Elleran]

PEDIT: I messed up my vote tags. Here's a summary of what I did in my post:
UNVOTE: TheTrollie
VOTE: Jennifer

[Elleran]

@Jennifer: I'm sorry my diction choice offends you. I haven't even used this 'excuse vs reason' thing by my own will since the couple of pages, if you haven't noticed. You and Dann have blown it out of proportion and you've been drilling at it for how ever long you have been voting me. I'll say this once: You are scumhunting on the wrong trail. Drop the diction argument.

@q21: I don't mind a wagon forming on Jenn, like I said. It applies further pressure and gives Jenn more incentive to answer. At the same time, I want to keep my vote on her for as long as I have a good reason to think that she's scum. If she's not giving me satisfactory answers, I don't mind if Jenn ends up getting lynched due to this wagon and happens to flip town and prove me wrong. The only thing I'm worried about starting a wagon on her is a similar reasoning as why I feel that Om is being targeted now -- I don't want to corner her into a lose-lose situation. Right now, I feel that she's scummy enough to vote on but not yet to lynch. That's what I meant by that line you're referring to.

[Elleran]

@Slandaar

: Town looks for reasons to vote. Here's my logic:
1) Town looks for scum.
2) To vote on the supposed-scum, town formulates an argument.
3) For the argument to be valid, it must be grounded upon an evidence and reason.
4) Without reason, the vote is invalid.
Therefore, town is looking for reasons. No exceptions.

Even scum must look for reasons:
1) Scum tries to frame a townie.
2) To vote on the townie, scum must formulate an argument.
3) For the argument to be valid, it must be grounded upon an evidence and reason.
4) Without reason, the vote is invalid.

@Jennifer

: Here are my reasons:
1) You voted just as rapidly between two people as I have. I have admitted to having switched for no good reason yet you continue to vote on me. You do not recognize any hypocrisy in continuing to vote on me.
2) You blew up the argument regarding my diction and continue to press the point as if it has any meaning.
3) You keep your vote on me despite seeing all the chatter about Slandaar vs Om. In fact, you only posted once regarding it at all (post 103). Are you saying that you find my opinioin on excuse vs reason to be more of a compelling reason to vote me than Om or Slandaar? Can you explain why?
4) Like I said, you followed DannFlor initially and voted me. (do you disagree?) Now that Dann dropped his vote on me, are you going to follow him again, or are you going to finally add something to your argument against me?

Another thing --

Literally

, your entire case against me is based on my opinion on excuse vs reason. You still haven't answered me whether I'm wrong about this point. Stop sidestepping and answer me please. If you don't have anything else, I would like to suggest that you use your vote on someone you have a more solid read on.

@q21

: Well, I personally had a bad time being cornered before. I was a VT in that game and something about being cornered made the situation unmanageable. In that situation, I felt like because there was so many cases and speculations about why I was scum that nothing I could say was going to convince anyone. In other words, being cornered is a self-fulfilling prophecy because it's like choking someone until he runs out of oxygen and begins failing to think straight.

@Dannflor

: I'm a guy, dude. Look at my gender. (This happens almost every game, so I'm not surprised lol)

[Elleran]

@q21

: Here's the link to the said game: Game in which I am cornered and begin to fail at explaining myself
It's easier to see my mistakes when you put me on ISO.

I also didn't vote Jennifer half-heartedly. All votes are equal. I threw in my vote in an attempt to make Jenn talk. If she answers me with satisfactory answers, I'll take it off. If she doesn't, then I'll keep it until she's lynched. I expect every vote to have consequences and I'll accept them if I end up making a bad call.

[Elleran]

If she answers me with satisfactory answers, I'll take it off. If she doesn't

This sounds like a similar mindset that Jenn had when she was questioning me. She simply used her vote as a bit a pressure while questioning.

You mean similar to this?:

Hey, all.

VOTE: Dannflor

@Dannflor Why are you avoiding the Trollie wagon? And why did you keep your vote on Slaandar when questioning Elleran for defending Trollie?

Mainly because I want Slaandar to post. Also, his post "defending" Trollie seemed sarcastic at the time... However... His recent move onto Trollie is suspicious. Seems like he was just waiting for the excuse to vote Trollie. VOTE: Elleran

Fair enough.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Elleran

Either Jenn was convinced by your explanation or she wasn't planning on actually grilling you. Her vote moved on like it was a piece of paper in the wind. I suppose similar intent, but I don't think she was actually planning on following up with it at all.

[Elleran]

Let's assume that she received a satisfactory answer and moved on. Let's ignore that it was RVS.

Next, she moved onto me because in your response, you managed to convince her that I was also worth voting on.

Ever since then, she's basically tunneled on me as hard as she could and ignored some of my questions aimed at her. Meanwhile, I responded to all of her questions directed at me. You're telling me that no matter how concisely and clearly I express my opinion on the definitions of some words that was brought up during an equally early stage of the game, Jenn has not been convinced that I have given her a satisfactory answer?

====

I think a better explanation is that her vote on you was a random vote while her vote on me was a serious one. Because her vote on you was so loose, we can assume that it wasn't a serious one and wasn't expecting much of a serious answer. She simply checked whether your explanation made some sort of sense then moved on. Why she changed vote to me may have been due to your explanation. Maybe it was a coincidence. Either way, her vote has been on me ever since for a reason that I believe is too insufficient for the effort she puts in to keep it on me.

[Elleran]

Wassup guys, this game is moving a little too fast for me to catch up, been a busy couple of days... I'll post up tonight. Just skimming through now.

Vote: Om

8 pages of active posting, no votes?

Well, first, Om did vote someone. He just unvoted recently. I look forward to what you have to say later tonight.

===

I like q21's reasoning. Although jumping on a wagon is scummy, having your vote on someone whose wagon is losing popularity just simply isn't useful for either scums or town. I didn't smell anything scummy from q21's post.

===

Regarding Jennifer

: I still find it odd that Jenn tried to accuse me so hard even though others had dropped out for some time. Because I feel that if Jenn was a scum, she would have gotten off the wagon long before it had lost popularity, but instead she stayed until the very end, I am actually getting some town read on her now.

@Jenn: The only time I followed Mr.Frog was my vote change onto Trollie for no reason at all. You on the other hand changed your vote onto me for a somewhat more serious reason after Dann had changed his vote to me. That's the reason why I find you to be following him and why I don't find myself following Mr.Frog. I see your point, but I disagree that it's the same degree of following someone.

===

Apparently, this Slandaar vs Om wagon is getting hot. I'm going to keep my vote on Jenn until I can get a better read on both Slandaar and Om.

Like I mentioned before, I'm going to state again that I am getting more of a town read on Om. I feel that he was caught in a corner and ended up in this scenario.

I REALLY want to say that I'm getting a scummy read from Slandaar, but I can't. He's been claiming that Om's a scum, kthxbye's a scum, and I'm a scum. He only provided a meta evidence on kthxbye (and a weak one at that) while flat out calling her a scum. Meanwhile, he has a legitimate attack going on on Om (for a good reason that I can understand). Even more, he disputes for 2 posts about how I am scummy based on our exchange about how town does not need to look for excuses or reasons. He's been attacking everything and everyone that moves from what I can tell.

I find his language (he tends to use strong statements and be overaggressive toward everything) scummy. I meta-checked Slandaar and he seems to use strong language in all the games he plays. Additionally, I feel like scum would not try to be so aggressive and lead so many attacks at the same time. I can't believe I'm saying this, but I'm getting an overall town read from Slandaar.

[Elleran]

So you find Slandaar very scummy while you also have a town read on him.

No, you misunderstood the first part about Slandaar. Let me clarify quickly:

I said that he was making strong statements and that he was overaggressive. I had to meta-check him to confirm that his language was normally this way (I confirmed that he was). His overaggressiveness makes him more town because scums generally wouldn't want to initiate hot debates and make cases against multiple people at the same time.

I was saying that I WANTED to say that he was scummy because I really don't like how black and white his statements are. He says "XXX is scum. Lynch him." or "YYY is obviously scum." etc. Slandaar actually DOES give reasonable responses, though. His super dichotomy language makes me wish that he was scum but I'm getting a town read overall.

[Elleran]

Sorry for the double post. I misread kthxbye's post at post-edit and had to reread it afterwards.

---

Naw, perfect would be not taking a stand at all. There is a lot of fluffy nonsense going on. That combined with it being day 1 means there is nothing to go on BUT gut. Why don't you like my reads?

There ARE leads to go off of. Even now, looking at who's defending who, who's attacking who, who's active, who's lurking, etc, all these traits will be used in the future. Even now, I have some gut feelings about who's scummier than others. Some are more or less baseless than others and therefore I won't start a case. On the other hand, if I feel that I have enough evidence to question or even accuse someone, I will act.

Recognizing the relationships between players is CRITICAL in figuring out who are the scums Day 2 and beyond. Saying that there's nothing to go on just means either you haven't picked up anything suspicious or you just don't see others' logic.

[Elleran]

2)

To vote on the supposed-scum, town formulates an argument.

3) For the argument to be valid, it must be grounded upon an evidence and reason.
4) Without reason, the vote is invalid.
Therefore, town is looking for reasons. No exceptions.

???

So, I found a supposed scum and am now formulating an argument as to why I am going to vote them?

Town looks for scum they do not look for reasons to vote supposed-scum.

So let me get this straight. You don't look for reasons to suspect anyone to be scum? You just magically 'know' whether someone's a scum or not without any evidence or information? Either you're the best mafia player I've ever seen or your logic is screwed up.

BOTH town and scum look for reasons to vote. Town suspects a supposed-scum because he/she has a reason to do so. Town does not simply

know

who's scum for no reason. I don't understand. Please, Slandaar. I beg of you. Tell me how you know who's scum with no evidence, reason, or logic?

Oh wait. There is a way how someone would know.

UNVOTE: Jennifer
VOTE: Slandaar

Here is a prime example; I think Elleran is scum because: gut.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Elleran

Impressive show of your investigative abilities! Your reasons are overwhelming me with all their logic. Please give me more.

I can't tell whether Slandaar is VI townie or a scum pretending to be a townie by being overly aggressive. I thought he was town, but clearly his reasoning is ridiculous. His response to me makes no sense.

[Elleran]

Gut and magically knowing are pretty similar.

I didn't say I don't scumhunt. I said; towns thought is not to look for the reason it is simply to look for scum. Gut is a great example that showcases the not looking for a reason but looking for scum.

And I'm telling you that town finds scums by looking reasons why someone seems to be scum. Town's thought IS to look for reasons why someone would be scum. You do this because looking for scum without reason is

impossible

. Why even say 'gut' when you can just say 'I flipped a coin and it said that you were scum'? Even gut feeling comes from reading people's posts and getting vibes. Why do you even bother reading this thread at all if you're just going to say 'gut' without even saying where or why you're getting your gut feeling?

[Elleran]

@Elleran What do you think of Kthx's response re: gut in this post?

I responded to that in post 207. tl;dr: I said that there are relevant information now and still new information forming.

[Elleran]

He thinks its awesome.

No I don't.

@Jenn: Kthx claims that there is no read to go off on other than gut at this point. Slandaar claims that town should not need a read and that gut is enough to vote. Kthx didn't endorse using gut while Slandaar claimed that that's the only thing you need.

[Elleran]

@Jenn: Oh you're talking about this post:

Ok, so caught up and I have a noob-town read on Joel, a town read on Slandaar, and a leaning scum read on Jennifer. All are mostly gut from the reading thus far. I don't like that Trollie has yet to do anything and I don't like the Om wagon. I'll...

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Jennifer

I must have missed it on the first read because I apparently did not respond to it at all. O_O

@Kthxbye: Can you explain each of your read (Joel, Slandaar, and Jenn)? You claimed that they were all mostly gut and that there isn't enough info day 1, but something about their posts must have caused you to have these gut feeling.

[Elleran]

P234 was a waste of time to read. Trollie, why would you analyze rvs.....like ever?

Trollie said that he only read the very first page... (which doesn't help him here, but it's relevant)

[Elleran]

are you fucking kidding me...why do you think we have RVS in the first place. Its where all the fucking scum are like "derp derp, its RVS so no one will care what i do" and then they do stupid shit.

Yeah...uh...I do this as town.

I think a lot of people derp during RVS...

[Elleran]

The "derping" around people do in RVS, often leads the game out of RVS. Simply because derps can be interpreted as scummy, and can lead to the eventual catching scum. It's distinguishing the town derps and the scum derps that counts.

at least someone understands this game

I don't like your attitude, Trollie. I doubt there was a single person here who didn't get the point of RVS.

Your arrogance implies that you feel like you mastered this game over everyone here. Please, enlighten us more about the game. Who do you think are the scums? I'm dying to know.

P-EDIT: Why list who you think are town? That only helps scums to prioritize their target. That's not scumhunting.

UNVOTE: Slandaar
VOTE: TheTrollie

[Elleran]

Who do you think are the scums? I'm dying to know.

This is scum.

'You won't get it right nanananananana'

As opposed to asking Trollie for a list of everyone who he thinks is town? I don't think so. It's so much easier for scum to come up with a list of who he thinks is town than for a list of who he thinks is scum.

wow...slandaar is totally right here...fuck elleran ur driving me crazy

So are you. You come flying out of nowhere, post some very minimal stuff about your reads, claim I'm scum for no apparent reason, then make a whole list of who are the towniest. How is this something a townie would do? Looks like someone pretending to scumhunt while not giving any useful inputs. Your posts are blinding me with all the scumminess.

[Elleran]

Here I will show this very simply;

1. When you are town, you look for reasons why someone is scum.
OR
2. When you are town you look for scum any reasoning just comes to you naturally.

Which do you think is correct?

The first shows exactly my viewpoint and the second shows exactly yours. You claim to 'naturally' get scummy feelings from random people while I'm saying that these feelings are actually from logical deductions. Tell me this, Slandaar: Can you get also get these feelings from anyone who has not posted in the beginning of the game? If the answer is no, then you're admitting to the need for actual posts and therefore evidence for any read (whether it be gut or logic).

[Elleran]

Here I will show this very simply;

1. When you are town, you look for reasons why someone is scum.
OR
2. When you are town you look for scum any reasoning just comes to you naturally.

Which do you think is correct?

The first shows exactly my viewpoint and the second shows exactly yours. You claim to 'naturally' get scummy feelings from random people while I'm saying that these feelings are actually from logical deductions. Tell me this, Slandaar: Can you get also get these feelings from anyone who has not posted

since

the beginning of the game? If the answer is no, then you're admitting to the need for actual posts and therefore evidence for any read (whether it be gut or logic).

(bolded to emphasize the edit)
EBWOP: I meant "since" not "in"

[Elleran]

Trollie's wall covering only page 1 read like scum trying to act busy/useful while not providing anything of value. I started to reverse that read when he then posted walls on pages 3 and 4 (no clue why he left out page 2) because I thought that maybe that's just his playstyle/how he needs to process information, and we only had a handful of pages that he needed to catch up on. But, then he skipped walling the rest of the game, didn't even comment on Om/Slaandar discussion though it had been a focal point, and tries to steer the conversation to Jennifer/Elleran.

The mindset of someone who would wall Page 1 and try to discuss/find meaning in it doesn't match up with the mindset of someone who just jumps to their conclusion and ignores commenting on what else happened in game. It rings hollow and scummy to me.

That's a much more detailed analysis of a thought that I touched on in the second half of my post 250. I agree with this.

[Elleran]

@TheTrollie:

i guess nothing worth me making a wall about...

Or to comment about or to mention any reads about, apparently.

@ Trollie - You posted a few walls. Then you stopped and started posting short comments and a townlist. Its like you wanted to look like your were doing something of value, but then stopped when you realized how much effort if would take to keep that up. The amount of effort is more likely to be a problem when it's for a scum facade than for genuine town scumhunting.

so....i wanted to LOOK like I was doing something, therefore I only chose to comment on three pages in detail? I commented on what I felt deserved commenting on. {Elleran, Jennifer, Smash} guarantee at least 1 scum in there.

So instead of commenting on the other 7-8 pages of more serious exchanges between people, you focus on the first few pages of RVS. Furthermore, you claim that those are the only things that deserved getting comments on.

This post and everything else mentioned in your posts...

... wut?

[Elleran]

Sorry for the double post, but who is Smash?

[Elleran]

@TheTrollie: Cool, more page 1 stuff. Both of your quotes have been thoroughly questioned and answered already. Have you even read the other pages?

[Elleran]

Trollie is town.

Elleran is scum; lynch him.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. TheTrollie and Slandaar have both been making bold claims as these without having any evidence to back themselves up. Slandaar has tended to be reasonable until recently, especially ever since TheTrollie started talking. What I'm seeing now is Slandaar looking for some evidence to show that TheTrollie is innocent to defend his fellow scumbuddy, failing to find any, then resorting to just saying meaningless statements as quoted above to try a last ditch attempt to swerve the town into mislynching.

PEDIT:
The first question I asked TheTrollie may have had a caustic tone, but my intent was real. I wanted some real feedback about what TheTrollie thought, which he ended up giving in a form of a list of most-towny players AKA fake scumhunting. Slandaar, could you tell me in what way a list of towny players will help town more than it does scums?

[Elleran]

so u think slandaar is scum cuz he thinks im town?

Yes. He seemed to have ignored all of your nonsense and tunneled on what I posted. This tells me either that he's actually tunneling on me hard (which is strange considering you've posted several walls of texts, and because he's been questioning anything that moves) or he wants to defend you but your posts are actually full of so much nonsense that he can't find a legitimate case for your defense.

[Elleran]

so it cant be that he thinks im town?

Sure he can. I would like to know why, though.

This was his post that defended you:

Trollie is town.

Does this convince you? Because it most certainly does not convince me.

[Elleran]

To contribute my thoughts on joels wagon, I don't have any read on joels because to be honest, he hasn't posted anything meaningful. I suppose I can try to pull something out of the fact that he hasn't posted much so he's lurking, but there are so many more interesting evidences now that joels wagon seems insignificant to me. In conclusion, I have nulltell on joels.

If it means anything, joels hasn't answered a single question directed at him nor has he even bothered to respond to the wagon that's building on him. I can't tell if he just doesn't care, if he's actively lurking, or if he's just busy in real life. He hasn't posted any V/LA notices, so I'm forced to conclude that he's not too busy in real life. I'm probably not going to vote for joels tonight at the current rate just because there are better leads on others that can reveal more information. Lynching someone like joels won't accomplish anything since joels literally has not interacted with us beyond few empty posts.

[Elleran]

Now that VC has been updated, I realized that the wagon on joels is much bigger than I thought. Is there any reason in voting to lynch joels over TheTrollie? Trollie flip would be much more informative just because there's been so much more interaction with him than with joels. A joels flip wouldn't be as helpful to us as any other flip. No one's really accused him nor defended him nor has he attacked or defended anyone else. I suppose I would just policy lynch lurkers, but not if there's been a much juicier and scummier player. I admit that joels hasn't been towny at all... but he hasn't exactly been scummier than some of our bigger suspects.

[Elleran]

dannflor is also town probs

Why?

Why don't you respond to anything happening around you?

[Elleran]

I assume your answer to the reverse question would be something that boils down to you finding TT scummier.

Yes, which is the reason why I'm asking why some others think otherwise. I feel Trollie to be scummier than joels for the reasons I stated already.

[Elleran]

dannflor is also town probs

Why?

Why don't you respond to anything happening around you?

whats happening around me?

You haven't responded to post 296.

Also, what are your thoughts on Slandaar? Don't just say "Slandaar is XXX" and actually explain yourself.

[Elleran]

Ok, i know i'm biased and all, but i LITERALLY cannot understand how someone can have me as their top scum read in this game.

lol

And slandaar is town because I know slandaar town.

So you're scum?

Slandaar is town because of his activity and because hes being smart and is on the offensive

I've already mentioned this in post 198. tl;dr: I had a town read on Slandaar because the little that he actually explains makes sense as well as being super aggressive.

How about now, Trollie? Do you still have a town read on Slandaar? Have you noticed that more than half of his posts

after

his good case against Om are empty claims with no reasons to back them up.

Exhibit 1:

Elleran, Om and kthx are the scum

If I am somehow wrong Jennifer or Goodmorning could be but that isn't likely.

Why?

Exhibit 2:

Trollie is town.

Elleran is scum; lynch him.

Why? How does this post makes sense?

Exhibit 3:

[...] Lynch Elleran.

This post is actually not bad. It has good content that's worth reading. It's how it ends that doesn't make any sense.

Both Slandaar and TheTrollie are just full of hot air, saying whatever they like and not backing it up with any evidences.

@Slandaar

: Why do you think Trollie is town? You said that you didn't want to explain, but is it because you have no reason to defend him with or because you actually want to hide the information? Either way, they both come off as scummy because if you had any good reasons, you'd state it to lead the town off of Trollie wagon. It's not a townie strat to let the town mislynch by withholding helpful information. If you don't actually have any reasons to believe that Trollie is townie, then why are you defending him?

Both TheTrollie and Slandaar. What are you guys doing... Neither of you are contributing to town AT ALL. If you guys are scum, then feel free to stay quiet and keep playing this way. If you guys are town, why are you refusing to communicate to the rest of the town? How do you expect people to listen to you if you aren't

saying

anything? Why do you not defend those who you think are town?

Dannflor is right. You guys are both driving me crazy with your super anti-townie playstyle.

===

PEDIT:

@elleran: what is ur read on joel?

I explained my thought in post 304 and post 306.

tl;dr: I don't have a strong read on joels, and frankly, I don't see any merit in this joels wagon. Like I stated in post 306, why lynch for a joels flip than a Trollie flip? I'm defending joels not because I have a town read on him but because I have scummier reads on others.

[Elleran]

EBWOP:

@MOD: Can you fix my broken quote please?

Mod: Done

[Elleran]

Elleran why are you suggesting I have not explained my scumreads?

I understand that you haven't updated your case against Om in awhile because he hasn't posted (and is getting replaced). Makes sense.

You posted stuff against Kthx, some stuff which I find reasonable. I actually see kthx being scum due to his recent "let's jump on a wagon and kill whoever is convenient" attitude.

Your case against me doesn't make sense. You have yet to answer my question regarding why you think Trollie is town even though I've been actively asking since post 292.

Your last attack against me was:

Please, enlighten us more about the game. Who do you think are the scums? I'm dying to know.

As opposed to asking Trollie for a list of everyone who he thinks is town? I don't think so. It's so much easier for scum to come up with a list of who he thinks is town than for a list of who he thinks is scum.

As we can see Elleran in quote 1 is being sarcastic, in quote 2 he is defending himself by suggesting there was actual reasoning behind his question.

There obviously wasn't

Hes scum

Lynch.

which I've answered in post 292. You just keep dodging my questions and press that I'm scum without giving any rebuttals. What else am I supposed to conclude other than that you have no way to defend your cases?

Here are my questions so that you finally answer them (note: it's been over 50 posts since post 292. You've posted 3 times since then without even mentioning my questions directed at you)
1) Why do you think TheTrollie is town?
2) How is withholding information rather than defending someone you think is town a pro-town move? (which is exactly what you're doing by saying "i don't explain my town reads" when you were asked to explain yourself)
3) How are my attacks against TheTrollie flawed? Did I say something wrong regarding Trollie's posts?
4) What exactly is your case against me?

===

PEDIT:
Can we please lynch TheTrollie? I'm actually frustrated in real life with his VI style of play. Now, not only is he flat out refusing to answer my questions, but he's refusing to play as part of a player in this game. Clearly, he doesn't know how to play this game and is just here to troll players like Dannflor and myself.

[Elleran]

@Dannflor: Do you think TheTrollie's refusal to answer questions directed at him is a townie thing to do? How about Slandaar's unrelenting push for my lynch for no good reason?

I was so frustrated with TheTrollie that I forgot to change my vote:

UNVOTE: TheTrollie
VOTE: kthxbye

I was going to say in my last post before I read Trollie's post that kthxbye's willingness to jump on any big wagon for a lynch is scummy, as Dannflor also pointed out.

===

PEDIT: No, that human who calls himself a player bolded my post inside that quote. I should be a comedian.

[Elleran]

Thank you for telling us how I used to play 2 years ago, Trollie. Your efforts are most appreciated.

[Elleran]

Hi, guys. Who should I vote for?

Read the discussion so far. Some important exchanges and wagons that you should pay attention to:
1) Slandaar/Om
2) kthxbye's behavior
3) Elleran wagon
4) Jennifer wagon
5) TheTrollie wagon
5) joels wagon

[Elleran]

...willingness to jump on any big wagon for a lynch is scummy...

LOLOLOLOLOLOL

Trollie's case on you is stupid but your case on yourself is valid.
(To be fair, I wouldn't call it a big wagon but I'd call it well-supported.)

Vote: Elleran

Still think joels is Scum but that's one useless fucking vote right there.
Kthx is also Scum but that can probably wait.

Dann is pretty Town
So is DRK

Trollie... I dunno

There are two people voting kthxbye... How is that a wagon? If I really wanted to get someone lynched quick, I wouldn't be defending joels and jump on his L-2 wagon.

[Elleran]

Why ztife? I'm going to go against his wagon for the similar reasons why joels wagon is bad.

[Elleran]

Elleran, do you personally think kthxbye is town?

My main read on Kthxbye comes from his post 298. He admits that it's a scummy move, which is a little WIFOM. I'm leaning toward scum for kthxbye.

[Elleran]

Two things here. First is how he links himself and thereby his image to one of the games better, townier posters = scum move. Second is the request to lynch trollie which is followed up in his next post with a jump to kthxbye just about out of nowhere, which is, yet again, buddying up to Dannflor.

Seems that its about time for me to be voting Elleran again. Maybe the earlier hints of scumminess weren't so playstyle related afterall.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Elleran

Aside from his tendency to absolutely alienate players and not explain himself, I have nothing against Trollie (which is why I unvoted Trollie). I literally wanted to lynch him because he was so frustrating to play with, but no point in complaining about it.

Are you talking about me agreeing with Dannflor's points and explicitly saying "Trollie is annoying players like me

and Dannflors

"? It's because Dannflor does make sense to me. A lot of things he posts match my viewpoints and I can see where he's coming from. I'd definitely agree that he's one of the townier players here as well.

[Elleran]

What do you know, Trollie has been reading my posts after all?

What else? He finally explained himself.

His reasoning appears to be: "Look guys, Elleran has been calling scum this entire time because I haven't been explaining myself nor any effort to prove my innocence! I finally decided to explain myself and he backed off! Look how he's backpedaling on his entire case! Look guys, scum!"

I fail to see how this is backpedaling. I asked you for an explanation on your reads, especially on me since you've been calling me scum for no reason. You finally explained yourself so I backed off because GETTING YOU TO TALK HAS BEEN MY POINT THE ENTIRE TIME.

Weren't you claiming to be smarter than this?

[Elleran]

Sigh. Here's one more explanation to this idiot. I can't believe he's still talking to me.

Elleran: I didnt have a scum read on trollie i just wanted him to talk

I

did

have a scum read on you. You paraphrased it wrong. When did I even deny ONCE that I didn't have a scumread on you in the past? Do I have to post a wall of quotes and texts showing how my entire read on you is based on the fact that you won't explain yourself nor answer my questions?

Read the quotes you took off my posts and read them yourself, Trollie

. Tell me if any part of my case against you had anything other than the fact that you won't explain yourself (Don't even get me started on how anti-town is posting a list of players who you think are the most towny).

The fact why I'm not voting you is for two reasons:
1) My most recent read on you since you decided to finally answer me is that you're a townie.
2) No point in even trying to lynch you tonight. My entire case against you dissolved as soon as you explained yourself.

Who knows for what devilish reason you and Slandaar won't ever explain yourselves when asked.

PEDIT:

...

[Elleran]

BACK. TRACKING. SCUM.

anyone who believes this shit? anyone?

Seriously. The same goes to you.

Anyone believe this idiot? Anyone?

[Elleran]

If I get lynched today, Trollie, I WANT TO BE THERE TO SEE YOUR PATHETIC ARROGANT FACE WHEN YOU SEE MY FLIP.

The amount of ANTI-TOWN that's been coming out of your nonsense has been INCREDIBLE.

===

You post a wall of analysis on PAGE 1 RVS BULLSHIT

You're asked why not analyze anything else and you say NOTHING ELSE DESERVED HAVING COMMENTS ON

You accuse me of scum THEN REFUSE TO EXPLAIN YOURSELF

YOU POST A LIST OF MOST TOWNY PLAYERS then REFUSE TO EXPLAIN HOW THAT'S NOT ANTI-TOWN

You post a meta case against me FROM 2 YEARS AGO. HAVE YOU EVEN CHECKED THAT THIS IS MY FIRST GAME SINCE THEN?

Then when I get a more tangible lead on kthxbye and change my vote, YOU USE THAT TO ANSWER MY PREVIOUS QUESTIONS AGAINST YOU AND CLAIM I'M SCUM FOR MY CHANGE OF VOTE

When you finally answered my questions and I got what I wanted, YOU CLAIM THAT I'M BACKPEDALING BY REVOKING MY VOTE

===

I even have a town read on you (despite you being an incredibly anti-town player) and I can't imagine why you're leading a mislynch so hard.

===

Seriously, to the rest of you guys:

How can you stand to play with a player like this?

[Elleran]

Here's my obligatory "nooooo" post. Good luck to town.

[Elleran]

Oh the game ended. gg guys

Nice job, GM.