Mini 1454 - GAME OVER

[JuanJuan]

VOTE: Aj the Epic

Because unlucky number.

[JuanJuan]

VOTE: Bubba
For saying I'm a good wagon, but not voting me.

Totes serious, btw.

'Totes serious' xD

[JuanJuan]

Lol I don't have competition. x)
I just dislike how Bubba plays, tbh.

Also, I may be wrong about the scum team, but one of them is scum. (pretty sure it's Bubba).

You not a fan of the BubbaGump Shrimp company?

[JuanJuan]

But I'm not the Juan and only, nor am I lonely.

[JuanJuan]

Am I right in thinking Bubba is L-1?

@above: I think we have differing opinions on love

[JuanJuan]

I'mma follow fuzzy, except I think Bubba might be too arrogant to be scum? (If that makes any sense at all.)

unvote

Vote: notscience

I can see that. He seems genuinely outraged at how people have evaluated him thus far. Not sure if NotScience was derping about the wagon or trying to derail it.

VOTE: NotScience

[JuanJuan]

Well I sort of said it just now, I think he's genuinely shocked that people have wagoned on him, but I don't think if he was scum he'd get so publically angry, especially so early. I find it funny that 3-4 games make him 'pretty damn experienced'.

My bad about the L-1 comment earlier, my mind was in another game.

[JuanJuan]

Not at this stage, but then I don't know how typical his play so far is.

[JuanJuan]

Pretty harmless way of putting pressure on someone early on, seeing how people react to it. Tis why I voted science, he seemed a little concerned about it.

[JuanJuan]

Err, I thought I was in a 9p game (I am currently in one), you were on 4 votes so I thought you were at L-1. I made that pretty obvious in that nice little quote you have in your post.

[JuanJuan]

No one would take me seriously if I explained my reason for keeping my vote on him and saying he is scum.

Pretty sure he's scum though.

In the event you weren't trolling before this post just now (#106), It kinda defeats the objects of having secret suspicions if you then post telling people you have suspicions you're keeping private, especially given that we're so early on. If you really do have suspicions, and this isn't just an attempt to revive the wagon, for whatever reason, surely it would've been more productive to let them keep going, so you can actually come up with some logic we can believe rather than posting what you just did.

[JuanJuan]

Perhaps, but then you have vested interests in me pursuing fuzzy over this. If I back off then I'd be looking back at you, right?

[JuanJuan]

Perhaps, but then you have vested interests in me pursuing fuzzy over this. If I back off then I'd be looking back at you, right?

wut? Can you rephrase that, I'm not understanding what you're trying to say.

Well, you inferred that fuzzy might be telling me to back off, and that it seemed scummy to you, and what I'm saying in return is that you have a vested interest in me pursuing it further as I have my vote on you.

[JuanJuan]

I do, actually. I'm a surface kind of guy.

It's "No" because you're wrong. I wasn't trying to force anyone to do anything. I

do

know what i'm doing.

---> hides reasons for pressure on bubba, 'I know what I'm doing'
---> 'I'm a surface kind of guy'

?

[JuanJuan]

Forgive me for thinking that a troll/joke post, along with your 'totes serious' earlier.

[JuanJuan]

I gotta admire him for keeping going with it. I was caught somewhere between confusion and laughing.

[JuanJuan]

Science, why are you so happy about a policy lynch D1, and so early into the day? If you're unable to work with one person 'being a nuisance' and fogging up your reads, how are you going to cope with a team of Mafia and potential 3P. I don't see that argument going anywhere smart, unless you're just trying to get Fuzzy to snap into seriousmode quicker.

[JuanJuan]

Bubba, if telling people to use their votes is scummy, then I don't know what isn't. Votes get people talking. Votes make people justify their actions. It's not as if he's asking people to hammer someone, or even put them near a hammer.

Amrun, i'll be the first to admit i'm a 'noob', and I don't have any pretentions about being a good player yet, but i'm trying to improve my play by playing outside of newbie games, too.

[JuanJuan]

@bubba: stuff like vote - lynch.

P-Edit: fuzzy, your "serious" reason consisted of "oh my rvs vote is usually on scum"
If that's serious to you, go take a break, and come back with fresh mind.

-G

It is serious, considering.

I'm not asking anyone to sheep me because of it, but i'm fairly certain bubba is scum

.

#209 Now then, can we please lynch Bubba?
#214 I'm not asking anyone to sheep me because of it, but i'm fairly certain bubba is scum.

[JuanJuan]

EBWOP: Damn you, bubba, beat me to it.

[JuanJuan]

So that, in the event their partner gets lynched later in the game, they can go back and say "hey, look, I voted for him here when I thought he was scum, but no one else did."
TL;DR: Town points.

Apologies for being inactive, had my last exam and been on a bit of a bender. Jon, I've played 3 other games not on MS, but all over 2 years ago. Will catch up tonight.

[JuanJuan]

Yeah, I didn't quote the one in my post either

[JuanJuan]

I smell buddying in the first half of this post. Anyone else?

lol. Does it hurt for people to know my experience? I was bringing it up because of earlier posts.

"I'm telling YOU this so you can get a better read on me because I think you're town" I see buddying, I'm not retracting that statement. I'd like to know why.

Surely you can work that one out, you're the one who's been so vocal about Amrun 'QQing' about noobs. He's addressing it to Amrun just like I did earlier.

[JuanJuan]

Admittedly my initial vote on Science wasn't the most concrete at first, but I haven't seen any reason to take it off since. I'm heading to the library soon so ill be able to work things properly, phones suck for anything more than general musings.

[JuanJuan]

Hoopla, your position on the wagon went from #279:

notscience's wagon isn't horrible. For some reason, his page 5 vote on fuzzy struck me as weird. It was a wishy-washy vote that was fairly easy to justify given how obtuse fuzzy was being. Scum like to jump on the safe votes, especially when they've got a wagon on themselves - essentially, more pressure = less risk taking behaviour.

So, the wagon is alright and notscience is dodgy.

to #284, suggesting that the wagon now is sus to you, and then #303,

I want to lynch someone on this wagon, and it should be one of the early voters, in my opinion.

Why did your opinion change so dramatically, so quickly? Now I understand the logic of both positions, they both make sense, but why so radical a change of mind?

------

I'll run through a few of my reads, seeing as i've been painfully inactive the last few days. Ironically they're pretty similar to Hoopla's:

I reckon fuzzy is town, if a bit obstinate. Science's railing against him constantly is silly imo, if he's going to change his play, he's going to change when he wants to, clearly.

Amrun I reckon is probably town. I haven't seen anything to suggest he's scum, maybe a little harsh on bubba in the beginning but then bubba probably needed it.

AIF/GIF seems a little easy to trust (talking about my first interaction on early pages with them), but I reckon there's town in there.

Hoopla probably town, despite this quick turnaround there's logic in what she's saying.

Bubba i'd say is town, unless he was scum desperately trying to prove himself, the way he tries to logically work things out seems soundly town-oriented.

Kthxbye maybe scum. Seems to realise that Science is the easy wagon and so hops right back on after initially unvoting, states who he thinks is scum/town without actually mentioning why he thinks any of it.

Science i'm not sure on. I don't think the sarcasm is helping his case, and I still question why he got worked up by people putting 3/4 votes on bubba with some simple early-game pressure. I'd probably leave my vote on him were he not so close to the lynch, but tbh all this unvoting and voting around L-1 is worrying me of an 'accidental' hammer. I actually thought someone had hammered Science last page but I was just miscalculating, so in light of the possibility for confusion i'm going to UNVOTE: NotScience for now.

AJ is puzzling. Last post Saturday night votes JKM, saying 'this is not a random vote' then leaves. I found it pretty hard to read up until then but that sticks out for me.

jon maybe scum. Seems to make a fair amount of filler posts about semantics/not necessarily game related qu's (hydra questions, MS experience). All his reads so far have been null or town so far apart from Science, who already had a wagon. Seems a little too easy? Agreed with AJ over the Amrun pressure, perhaps trying to hide from Amrun's aggression.

That's what I came up with so far.

[JuanJuan]

Hoopla, you chose the wrong scum. It's Jon, not Juan. A simple misspelling on your part, I'm sure, but you made a much better case against Jon than Juan.

When I was contemplating who to vote from those early voters, a couple of jon's posts struck me as town. Like when he was lucidly talking about buddying and forming a town bloc - just seemed too candid and like he wasn't worrying about what people thought. His vote being static the entire day is suspicious, but reading his iso, a couple of gut things like that stick out as town. I didn't really get as many town pangs when reading Juan's posts.

Apathy isn't hard to fake, and there's no chance of making a scumslip. I'm not sold on jon's alignment either way, but joking and seeming candid doesn't in my eyes stick out as a town indicator.

@jon, seeing as you posted while I was posting: I was posting my reads for everyone, so how that could be an opportunistic attack on you specifically, I don't really know. I was picking up on what I read in your ISO, like I did for AJ. Where did I defend you, by the way?

If anything, what you've just done against me comes off as opportunistic, trying to push peoples interests in a different direction.

[JuanJuan]

I tend to just use ISO's for checking people's continuity. Can be quite fun for testing out potential scumpair ideas, though. (using double or triple ISO's in one 'display post' option)

[JuanJuan]

Why is it that you want me as a lynch, Hoop? Just my position on the wagon, as a sort of mythical scumtell? We could probably sit here all day and argue why 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th or 6th has some meaning in being a scum position to hop on the wagon, but I don't see too much of a problem with my vote for Science. I left it there as long as I did partly a signal of intent, partly just because I was pretty inactive in reading this game, but new things have cropped up and the amount of voting/unvoting on the wagon was unsettling me. I could ask the same of fuzzy, but he doesn't seem too inclined to give his reasoning for anything.

jon and NS would probably be my top candidates for a lynch, not convinced on Science or kthxbye but the first two stick out most to me. I hadn't noticed NS too much (figures, seeing as he's lurked) but marc's reasoning is sound. On jon, since jon has been pressured, he quickly unvoted Science on the premise of following Hoopla, which to me looks like a knee-jerk reaction to seem more town. So far it looks like jon has worked out that he wants to be on the good side of both Hoopla and Amrun.

VOTE: jon

_{insert ironic comment about how i'm the 3rd voter again, thus sealing Hoopla's position on me}

[JuanJuan]

I might just be reading too much into being #3 on your list, and I thought I was the third to vote Science. Btw, what does PoE mean?

[JuanJuan]

Why do you have jon as more town than me? I feel there's a great deal that can be read into jon's actions, whereas all you're calling me out on is sitting on the Science vote.

[JuanJuan]

JuanX2 is looking awful scared after a few votes,


pedit AiF "I agree with that those 3 players were being pretty apathetic, but I have Juan as one of my strongest townread, so I don't like your vote there." Explain.

"Posts like this rarely, if not never, comes from scum. Especially admitting that he made a bad choice and stuff. He can be in my townpile now." - I'm not saying Hooker's scum, I'm saying your logic is faulty and bad.

JX2 "Apathy isn't hard to fake, and there's no chance of making a scumslip. I'm not sold on jon's alignment either way, but joking and seeming candid doesn't in my eyes stick out as a town indicator."- AiF, you need to explain that Town read you say you have. I'm on the fence with him, but leaning scum.

"I agree with your case on NS, but the extreme lurkiness is

actually his meta

." - Agree

"Put your vote back on notscience plz."Done
VOTE: Not Science

@ AJ The one game I played with you, you were pretty much a non-presence (you were Town), but here you're much more forceful. I hope this is your Town game this time.

I don't see where i'm coming off scared, but feel free to point that out for me. This post reeks to me of weak OMGUS. And now that people suggest that the wagon on Science is town, you immediately hop back to it? You care far too much about what other people think, rather than actually scumhunting. I'm not moving my vote.

[JuanJuan]

Your reason is that someone asked you to do it, and you did it without questioning why? That's a valid reason?

@your most recent post: I don't understand. Are you saying that people would avoid it because it'd been called out as 'town'?

[JuanJuan]

One liner's like, 'hey, vote NotScience' 'OKAY SURE'

?

I'm not convinced on Science or AJ, I think Science isn't the worst lynch in the world, but you're being scummy, and cashing in on the fact that Science and I happen to be voting you at the same time. If you actually looked back, you would've seen that not long ago, I was voting Science, and didn't take my vote off for a considerable period of time where he was around L-1.

[JuanJuan]

Oh, that's so persuasive.

And your voting me without giving a reason is supposed to be?

I'm doing my best to catch up, been on the move the last couple of days [sorry for no heads up], i've read through but need to get it clear in my head. Back later with something substantial.

[JuanJuan]

Kthx, how would hammering win towncred? It's a stupid thing for you to say, because in the event HP flips scum whoever hammers + yourself will find yourself in a shitstorm. I don't know how I feel about that, it seems like a crappy thing to suggest from any alignment.

I'm not sure about HP, but his voting pattern seems to suggest a combination of vote-parking and following what the majority of people think, so safe as safe can be. Of the people on the wagon, I've got a townread on Marc and bubba [despite his arrogance] with a tentative townread on fuzzy. Kthx, jon and AJ aren't clear-cut for me. I was more suspicious of Jon, but he hasn't changed his play since being voted and his happy families attitude just seems to be his general play, so i'm probably leaning more null than scum with him now.

UNVOTE:

I don't like NS' play, the little of it that has come out. NotScience's sarcasm is getting tiresome but I actually agreed with him for a while on Jon, and my initial suspicions on him aren't as strong as they were. That might just be indicative of my recent inactivity and push on Jon, however.

[JuanJuan]

Kthx, that was meant to say 'in the event he flips town'

[JuanJuan]

The joys of not reading your own posts properly.

[JuanJuan]

Does that mean you're not voting now?

[JuanJuan]

Way to go on the explaining front, NS. And not even waiting for a claim? Here's hoping he

is

scum.

[JuanJuan]

VOTE: NS

All i've seen so far from him is scummy votes that aren't backed up by anything.

[JuanJuan]

VOTE: JuanJuan

Day just started. Plus, that vote is opportunistic as hell.

Picking up on someone something did scummily at end of D1 =/= opportunistic
I'm putting pressure on NS to explain his actions thus far. Is that a problem?

[JuanJuan]

Arc is massively inactive in the newbie game i'm in too, so I wouldn't expect miracles.

[JuanJuan]

Marc, why is it that you see me as scum? And why the links to Science and/or AJ? Before the quickhammer yesterday Science would've been one of the options for a lynch I was happier with, i'm just no advocate of ending the day so soon like NS did.

And I understand that you guys have played with NS more, but seriously? I don't see how he's a townread, or even how you can read too much into his minimal posting.

[JuanJuan]

UNVOTE:

Kthx's continued behaviour towards the NS lynch makes me unhappy about this move, just un-engaged pushing for the lynch isn't helping anyone. I'm not at all happy about NS' play either, but I don't feel happy about being on the same page as him.

[JuanJuan]

Amrun: basically what bubba said, I don't want to place a vote just for the sake of it. I've been keeping up with reading but I need to look into ISO's a bit more and think through my votes [suggested by marcmann that I haven't been]
Marc: I wasn't too sure on whether he was scum or town, but he was still one of the targets I was happier about, from both a potential scum and information perspective.

[JuanJuan]

So, Juan. You don't have scum reads, and you're hesitant to vote because someone criticized you for not thinking about your votes enough? Plus Hoopla dying implicates you.

I'm not hesitant to vote, I

did

vote. I unvoted because I re-evaluated my vote and the people who were also voting him in light of that, particularly Kthx. And I'd more say it doesn't implicate me because he was so obviously gunning for my lynch for a lot of the day that it'd be idiotic to kill him.

[JuanJuan]

EBWOP: you just beat me to it, but I can understand why there's a perceived possibility of me being involved due to Hoopla's aggro towards me. I would've brought it up at the beginning of D2 but I was worried that any attempt to point out a possible framing would just draw people into thinking that it was me or an alleged scumbuddy after all.

[JuanJuan]

Fuck. Got way too inactive D2, sorry.

The Aj flip makes sense to me, I didn't see him as particularly buddying anyone, though it doesn't give too many hints for where we should be going with this. We don't know for sure either way whether Fuzzy blocked Scum or SK kill N1, as Rob explained, the flavor is just flavor.

I don't like how Kthx was CERTAIN that an NS lynch had to happen yesterday, until his 'accidental' hammer of Aj. Now today he's off his failed NS push and is pushing bubba. I understand the push on NS given his general posting so far, and even the push on bubba is logical, but I don't think his play yesterday particularly helped town [I know, i'm one to talk]. I'm still not convinced on Jon either, and at the time of the lynch yesterday (before Kthx hopped and hammered) it was jon and kthx on NS.

VOTE: Kthx

[JuanJuan]

Well, that was a crazy ass post by bubba. I think he got lost in his own walls there.

Wish jon would get more into the game, not that I can talk.

@jon: I know them feels. Been borrowing a laptop the whole way through this game.

[JuanJuan]

Funny, the same could probably be said about you really. Its more that I can't work out where the scum lies. My earlier suspicions on NS were eradicated by who was on the wagon with me at the time, and he makes a good case about Amrun, but I'm not sure on that score.

[JuanJuan]

Finally Kthx, a post of yours I can get on board with. Would you think SK + 3 Scum is OP in 13p then? I wouldn't say its out of the question, we don't know how many pro-town PR's we've got left. But I shouldn't stray too much into balancing... I like your logic on Marc's behaviour though.

Not, if that was really the case about GIF pushing newbies, why has he had a townread on me almost throughout the game?

[JuanJuan]

Marc, seriously what the fuck. You said last page that you had nothing concrete on me, just a feeling, and now you're saying that you don't need convincing?

Since you asked for reads, not that I really have any right now...

Town: tentative town leaning on GIF. I thought bubba and Amrun were town but not so sure on those anymore. Sorry for not being more revealing, but the merrygoround of suspicion has left my reads in a mess.
Scum: combination of maybe Marcmann, Science, and Jon, though with Jon it's hard to read much into it as he hasn't posted much.

Science, you're sounding like a broken record about your 'mislynch' theories.

[JuanJuan]

Trying to work out why Not doesn't want to claim, giving the lynching we've had the last two days you'd think he wouldn't want to chance getting lynched without a claim, even if its false.

[JuanJuan]

Not even a ruse that has you at L-1? And given the trigger happy lynches on previous days?

[JuanJuan]

QFT above ^

[JuanJuan]

Sorry for being a 'tard, but I'm on my phone, how many people died last night?

[JuanJuan]

Yeah I know, I was just checking. Not that the amount of people dying would prove anything, as a buddy could have done the kill, but still.

Good thing that post review is here and i'm on a computer now. Was just about to post that he was to be given benefit of the doubt for today. That spices things up.

[JuanJuan]

I'm happy to accept that claim tbh, imo it's too much of a risk on GIF's part to lie in this counter-claim. I'll wait to see what anyone else has to say, but i'm happy to hammer some point soon if nothing changes.

[JuanJuan]

PR's dropping like flies X_X Will post later after I've looked through Amrun's relations with others.

[JuanJuan]

What are your reasons for wanting my lynch, mm2?

Bubba: I generally hold off hammering until I'm sure its the right decision, you can look at Newbie 1363 for the same (though I've made shocking reads in that game). People in this mini are a little more gung-ho than I am on hammering.

Not liking MM2's softclaim PR tbh, indicates he's PR but we have no way of validating that and he seems to not highly doubt GIF's claim. 2 dead PR's + 2 claimed PR's is pretty extensive, and there's a chance there are still more unclaimed.

End of D3 iminished my dislike for Kthx with the hammer, though could have been a sensible scum. In other circumstances I'd accept the wagon analysis on mm2 and it looks compelling, but I'm not sure I see the case on me. I was on the first L-1 wagon and I've explained my propensity to hammer late.

[JuanJuan]

EBWOP: should read 'could be a sensible bus' on kthx