Open 6 - Nightless (Ended) - before 388

[Patrick]

So we've started? I think a

vote: Mr Stoofer

is in order.

[Patrick]

DAY 1 has begun. With 12 alive, 6 will lynch.

(7 will lynch?)

[Patrick]

I am an insane cop with an innocent investigation on Stoofer. That's why i'm voting him.

[Patrick]

1. No, because I don't really see the benefit of letting one person decide everything in that way.
2. Since the game only just started, I haven't thought of anything special. We have no poweroles so it's just traditional mafia strategy. I think we should be hard on lurkers if possible. Not lynch instantly but we need everyone talking. Obviously this is nothing new, but even more vital for this type of game I feel, where we have no other ways of getting information other than posts.
If everyone contributes well, I think we'll have very good chances. No poweroles, and scum can't pick off ppl who are getting close, so there's no excuse for shyness.
3. I really find it impossible to judge how long today or the game will be. Full commitment from me of course.

[Patrick]

How is he unwilling to make a firm stand? I think he's making it perfectly clear what he thinks of your suggestion.

Why are you assuming that the standard voting system is going to mean we all roll dice and randomly throw our votes around? Just because we have no poweroles doesn't mean we can't try to find scum the normal way.

[Patrick]

My own reasons are not based on numbers really, I just don't see why a kingmaker system is any better than the normal system here. If Pooky is town then he would have the right motivations when making a decision, but that doesn't mean scum can't influence it, and even pooky can go wrong presumably. If Pooky is scum then we would just be gifting scum exactly what they want.

[Patrick]

I'm trying to work out why there is a special enthusiasm for lots of types of voting systems. I've never had it before in any other game. I know this game is vanilla and nightless, but I'm still not convinced normal style play is any worse than anything suggested so far.

I don't like the pair voting idea for deciding our lynches. I think it will create some unfair situations. Imagine two clean looking ppl are paired up and two scummy ppl are paired up. Under that system you force one of the clean looking ppl to progress to the next round so to speak, just because he was unlucky in who he was paired with. Meanwhile one scummy looking player gets to be out of contention immediately. Whereas normally we would want to consider lynching the scummiest ppl. Pair voting just seems an odd way or sorting things. If we are ever desperate to find out who ppl think is more scummy out of two players, we can always just get everyone to say. I don't think everyone needs pairing up.

As for Pooky, I don't think his suggestion tells us anything about his alignment. I'm pretty sure I've seen him do it at least once before and I think it's as good a way as any to get things going. I just don't agree with putting him in charge.

[Patrick]

Vitamin did you also notice that Thesp did the same thing as Relyte? Looked like sucking up to an experienced player if you ask me.
Ripley - I've actually seen him do it in a chat game, I haven't seen him do it in a forum game though it sounds like a Pookyish thing to do.

[Patrick]

What is the point of such a post Thesp? Only way you can know Pooky's alignment is if you're scum.

[Patrick]

Interesting little defence of Thesp there IH. I usually think ppl joke around on page 1, now the game has started in earnest. If so far he has been joking the whole time, then he hasn't in fact contributed anything which isn't very good either. So I will vote Thesp because I got the impression he was sucking up to Pooky.

unvote, vote: Thesp

[Patrick]

If Thesp has so far been kidding I would like to know his real opinion, however the second post made in support of Pooky didn't seem like a joke to me.

[Patrick]

I've never heard of Frenzy. I didn't think Thesp played anything like Coron either.

[Patrick]

Heh. Do you always answer a question with a question? Like I said before, I have really no way of knowing. I don't think Pooky's suggestion reflects badly or well on him.

[Patrick]

I don't think Thesp is making much sense, but bleh. He says he knows Pooky's alignment. So he is scum. 3 to go.

[Patrick]

Relyte that quote you attributed to IH was actually said by Thesp.

Please excuse what will be later on called, "WIFOM." But if I was scum, would I really make a stupid decision and say, "I'm allied with Pooky 4 Life."

I've already said, Pooky is not a leader to me but an influential figure.

Please do not try and twist our words to get someone lynched. I don't think most scum is THAT stupid, allying with other scum early in game.

Ok so first part you say that scum wouldn't ally themselves with Pooky on this. Third part you say essentially the same thing but replacing Pooky with 'other scum'. Interesting.

[Patrick]

So you're saying that in the third part you meant that scum wouldn't ally themselves to their scumbuddies? It seems odd; first you're talking about Pooky, then suddenly switching to say that scum won't ally with scumbuddies. Maybe you just phrased it awkwardly. But it came off to me sounding as though you know pooky to be scum.

[Patrick]

Wow.

What's the big deal? Pooky proposed being leader, some of us said yes, that doesn't mean our leader is a good guy. Was Napoleon a good guy? He took over countries, killed men. He was a good guy in a sense, he helped out France, but he was a bad guy at the same time.

What's the big deal? If our leader is scum, you don't see that as a problem? Sheesh. How is Napoleon relevant to this?

It's not like Pooky will not be considered as scum. I'm willing to lynch Pooky as much as the rest of you. It's not like as a leader he'll be hard to find out. If we keep lynching Pro-Town players, duh.

I'm not going to call this scummy. But it's very shortsighted.

I'm sick of you guys pointing fingers at us just because you need victims to point fingers at.

My heart bleeds for you. Why can't we just have a world where nobody needs to accuse anyone? Then nobody needs to get worked up at all. In reality, I see something odd or scummy, I point it out. Simple. Not because I 'need' targets.

Which is why I keep my vote on IH. You, Patrick, and Vitamin are too suspicious. Pooky asked us questions. Including whether he doesn't mind him being a "leader" per se.

Firstly I don't know why me, IH and vitamin are getting grouped together. Secondly why are we scummy? Do you think that ppl who disagree with you on Pooky's suggestion are scummy?

[Patrick]

Relyte, the shortsighted comment was because you said that if we made a Pookyscum our leader, he would be easy to spot because he keeps killing townies. The fact is, giving scum control of the game is never a good idea. It would let him choose when to bus a scumbuddy or two to look good, and when to kill a townie is such a way that looks reasonable. In short, we would be letting scum set the agenda. Bad.

I'm grouping you three together because you're all paranoid and act 90+% sure Thesp, Pooky, or I are scum, all because we grouped together by saying, "Pooky will be 'okay' as leader." Thesp and Pooky, kind of a little more supportive, but at least that's what I said.

Where did you pull that figure from? When did I say I'm sure that Thesp is scum with pooky? I'm asking him to give a straight answer and until he does I'm leaving my vote on him.

[Patrick]

FWIW, I don't think Pooky's proposal tells us one way or another whether he is scum. It's just the sort of thing he would do whether town or scum. What is of more interest, IMHO, is people's reactions to the proposal.

This is what I've been saying, except I actually don't know what FWIW stands for.

[Patrick]

I agree that IH was stretching with that point about making ppl happy. jl2704's play doesn't make much sense to me so far. jl what is your experience? You played anywhere before this?

[Patrick]

I was actually surprised nobody else saw it myself. Seriously, why does he want to make one side happy? I don't consider that a little thing.

It just sounded like a figure of speech to me.

[Patrick]

Well he looks like he's new to the game. Voting Thesp in that way was definitely a scummy action, what I'm trying to decide is whether he's newbscum or newbtown. His vote for IH doesn't make much sense to me. It could be that he's trying to be on whatever is the largest bandwagon or whatever he thinks has the most potential, though he's doing it very blatantly. My vote is happy on Thesp as he still hasn't given any answer.

[Patrick]

I don't like this at all. Sounds scummy, but people make mistakes. Chances are we'll lynch a Townie either way though.

lol. Sounds like he already knows jl would turn up town and is preparing his excuses.

FoS: Relyte

[Patrick]

Cephir you realise this is a vanilla game right? Nobody is going to claim anything other than townie. I don't like this talk about hammering so early on anyway. We're not deadlined, we never can be deadlined because it would be pointless, and we have plenty more to discuss.

[Patrick]

I don't like this at all. Sounds scummy, but people make mistakes. Chances are we'll lynch a Townie either way though.

lol. Sounds like he already knows jl would turn up town and is preparing his excuses. FoS: Relyte

People make mistakes, look what I've done right here. My words were badly stated and misinterpreted. Is it not possible Jl's were too? You guys are way to eager to jump on the hammer.

Of course it's possible you just made a mistake and same for jl, but that doesn't mean we have to disregard it. I wish you would stop accusing ppl of jumping on you. This is a game of mafia, where ppl will pick up on word choices.

[Patrick]

What is all this? His questions haven't made him scummy and they didn't make you or Thesp scummy either, that was caused by your own actions.

[Patrick]

Only way you can know Pooky's alignment is if you're scum.
...
He says he knows Pooky's alignment. So he is scum. 3 to go.

Who in their right mind would actually think I'm coming out claiming to have proof of Pooky's townness? This looks like a silly attamept to throw suspicion on me.

This misses the point. You were pretty much refusing to say why you thought Pooky is pro town. I mean, I still don't really see why you think so, your only reason seems to be that you think he is more likely to propose something like this as town than scum, which I don't think is true anyway.

[Patrick]

Yeah I get 2 votes.

[Patrick]

I think you sound very sure considering the guy has only made 2 posts. I don't think it's inconceivable that a newb townie could have made the posts he did. I'm not saying we ignore it, but I'm not going to timelimit him, and if it seems like he's not showing up I want him replaced.

[Patrick]

I fully believe long days help the town. Yes, some days can go on too long and cause annoyance and apathy in some players, especially if they are just waiting on one person indefinitely. However, I think there is usually stuff that can be usefully discussed.

If we don't hear another word from jl, I would rather replace. I'm not ready to hang him based on what he's posted. I also don't think you could call disappearing from the site (which may happen in his case) a scumtell so much as just a loss of interest. If he was actively posting in another games and not this one, that's a different matter all together.

[Patrick]

I'll respectfully disagree. Judge it how you want.

[Patrick]

Frankly, I hate posts like this. Players give up too easily. If you're not lynched yet, then you still have the chance to live. If you're really interested in helping us, you'd continue playing. You'd give a reasonable explanation, you'd answer people's concerns, and so forth. But when you go and put yourself in a position like this, we really have no other choice but to lynch you, as you don't help us being alive, and we still suspect you of being scum.

Frankly, I dislike it when ppl say stuff like this. I think we all know that townies give up just as much as scum give up. We're not here to punish bad play, we're here to lynch scum. It's not as if his whole post was just saying 'oh I give up, plz lynch me'. He did actually explain his vote on Thesp. Not that it was a great explanation, but there's a limit to what he could say anyway in that situation.

Unvote.

I don't think Thesp is scummy tbh. Relyte and jl both look worse to me. Cephir is more or less sitting on the sidelines. I can see the plus points of lynching jl, because it's true we probably won't keep him around until endgame, he isn't really helping much, his lynch would be informative etc. I just can't shake off the feeling that the wagon feels wrong and is being pushed by scum.

[Patrick]

Wow. Now I feel like an idiot. Not doing a detailed reread now, but, now working with the knowledge that jl was really newbish scum, I don't think Thesp would be a scumbuddy. It doesn't strike me that he would have tried to push the wagon of a scumpartner on like that.

[Patrick]

I didn't phrase that too clearly. What I meant was, I don't think jl would have tried to further the Thesp wagon (which is what he was lynched for) if Thesp was a scumbuddy.

[Patrick]

No, he wasn't lynched for that. He was lynched for saying "We won't get any information without a lynch" and voted for Thesp.

I think that's what I said. Essentially, jl was looking for an excuse to further the Thespwagon. I am intrigued that you think he was doing this to a scumbuddy.

[Patrick]

Relyte Nightfall PAtrick would be my guess for the other 3 scumbaggos.

X

[Patrick]

Thesp's play in this game has been grating on my nerves somewhat, but I don't know that it's scummy. I still think it is a valid point about jl making an excuse to push forward the Thespwagon. I think he would have been more likely to do this if Thesp was town. Of course, with my accuracy this game, Thesp will probably turn out to be scum

Relyte has definitely been doing some strange things this game, some of which I've already pointed out. The hammer vote looked like a last minute attempt to distance from jl. At any rate if Relyte was pro town and really didn't think jl was scum, I don't know why he would hammer.

My other suspicion is Cephir, who seems to be trying to fly well under the radar. He isn't saying too much, though sometimes pops up to echo other ppls reasons. I really don't see much townie curiosity in him.

[Patrick]

Anyway, don't count your chickens before they hatch. We don't KNOW if JL is Scum, I can't be distancing from him if he's Town and I'm Scum.

Please pay attention to what's going on.

[Patrick]

On reading Nightfall's posts in isolation, I tend to agree. I find him not too different to Cephir actually. I'm not going to put him at -1 just yet though. I would quite like Thesp to explain why he thought Nightfall had to be scum if jl was scum when he gets the time.

[Patrick]

Stoofer posted in the vac thread yesterday that he's too ill to contribute.

[Patrick]

So you usually find scum and make a day 1 lynch by rolling dice ?_? no wonder I came under so much heat in open 4 from you[/sarcasm]

kill: IH

I probably will need to do some meta on Relyte to see if he always plays inatentively and weirdly. Other that, I still suspect Cephir and Nightfall, and am still waiting on the same ppl.

[Patrick]

^^
^^ Vintage Cephir
^^
^^

[Patrick]

Really? u still suspect nightfall? show me a previous post where you've expressed suspicion of nightfall plz.

On reading Nightfall's posts in isolation, I tend to agree. I find him not too different to Cephir actually. I'm not going to put him at -1 just yet though. I would quite like Thesp to explain why he thought Nightfall had to be scum if jl was scum when he gets the time.

[Patrick]

I'm ok with lynching Nightfall though I would like to see Vitamin, Stoofer and Brian contribute today.

[Patrick]

IH, I'm confused. Why do you think Ripley was trying to direct a lynch? He was in fact wondering whether you or Pooky would look less suspicious due to jl having voted you.

I think it would be dangerous to make too many assumptions. I like the way Ripley is thinking in trying to pick out ppl that look pro town for whatever reason, that could be valuable later on. The reason the vote for Thesp stuck out was the way it looked oppotunistic. His pooky vote came without explanation, it could have been random for all we know. Jl's IH vote was interesting. Following posts 94 and 95 between IH and Relyte, jl comes out and says this:

Wait, does this mean IH is distancing himself from Relyte? I take suspect the initiator more than I would suspect the victim.

Vote: IH

I'm not sure why jl thought that. It's possible he was just retaliating against a voter with a poor reason. I don't know where he got the idea they were distancing from, unless he knew them to be scumbuddies. I've had suspicions of Relyte, but nothing really on IH, thought he tends to jump on tiny things. So i'm not about to semi clear IH or Pooky based on those votes. Here was his vote for Thesp:

Agreed. Unfortunately, if we are to progress in the game, someone has to be killed for further analysis. Obviously, I don't want to lynch myself, and it is also the case that Thesp is leading the votes with 3. This vote is not a vote on scummage per se, but more of achieving progression instead of deadlocking the vote.

I dunno. It just seems like if he's so newbish that he doesn't realise such a post will get him in big trouble, I doubt he would know about busing. And remember, he was a replacement, so he wouldn't even have been around pre game to get advice from his scumbuddies.

[Patrick]

IH, he means that if we assumed Thesp, Pooky and yourself innocent, then one more scum lynch would put it down to 2 scum, which is less than the number of PRESUMED innocents (3).
Also of note is how Nightfall basically repeated what I said in less detail.

[Patrick]

His pooky vote came without explanation, it could have been random for all we know.

But he was scum, so why on earth would we believe the explanation even if he'd provided one? The only way I'm going to believe a scum has placed a truly random vote is if they do the dice roll thing. And this was a vote on page 3, without explanation, and on the player currently causing the most discussion. Whatever it was it wasn't random.

Maybe not, but the point is, I don't think it tells us much about Pooky. Maybe he did just pick someone to vote who wasn't scum, or maybe he dumped a vote on a scumbuddy so he could look for an easy oppotunity to get off later (which he did, he went for Thesp).

It just seems like if he's so newbish that he doesn't realise such a post will get him in big trouble, I doubt he would know about busing.

Sorry to ask a very newbish qu in a grownup game, but what exacty does busing mean?

Busing or busthrowing, is voting or hammering a scumbuddy, probably in an attempt to gain the towns trust. Often done when the scumbuddy is in trouble and will likely get lynched anyway. In a game without poweroles, I imagine busing is a fairly common strategy, especially if scum can get into one of those close to confirmed spots you are talking about.

[Patrick]

Well, just voting a scumbuddy for no apparent reason, or as a first or second vote isn't really my idea of busing. It's not like he could really think his votes for IH or Pooky were going to increase the chances of them being lynched. So yeah I think it's possible he would vote them just to have voted for a scum. Not saying either of then are scum, just that I'm not ready to semi clear them. This is different with Thesp because he was putting a fourth vote on. As I said, what jl posted sounded like an excuse to further the wagon, as if he just thought he could quietly push the vote leader towards a lynch. It looked oppotunistic. I'm pretty sure most of the ppl who voted jl did so because they thought it looked oppotunistic. I doubt the first thought that crossed ppl's minds was 'oh he's looking for an excuse to bus Thesp'. That is just my interpretation of it, if others disagree they can say so. I can't actually work out Ripley, whether you agree or not, or whether you're trying to really prise into the reasoning behind it, when much of it is just based on the vibe I got from jl's post.

[Patrick]

HA. Feeling sick now scumbags?

[Patrick]

Pooky also said Relyte next. I am inclined to think IH and Thesp are townies on gut.

[Patrick]

I think the last two may be Relyte and Cephir. It sounds almost too simple to be true, but the way they've played and their reactions seem consistent with it. I remember Cephir kicked off day 2 by voting Thesp, then when ppl voted Nightfall, he switched to Nightfall quickly. I think it was Vitamin who pointed it out. Cephir's last post feels like he's trying to bus Relyte. He doesn't give a reason, other than the display all posts by user.

[Patrick]

Relyte has been fairly OMGUSish all game. He's also been jumpy and paranoid at various points. No vote yet, because I don't know how many he has, but I would slightly support lynching Relyte over Cephir. Not that I would shed any tears for Cephir either.

[Patrick]

OMG. That posts reeks. For one thing I would like to know why I'm appearing on these lynch lists without any reasons given.

The point being: If Thesp and Pooky haven't hit one scum other than Relyte within a few days, we should probably lynch them.

One scum, OTHER THAN RELYTE? Do you know Relyte to be scum? I also really don't like the way you seem to be putting the responsibility on Thesp and Pooky, saying they have to find us scum, otherwise they should be lynched. Really don't like that post at all.

[Patrick]

Both your scenarios have Cepohir as being scum. I can't really imagine he would plant an error like that just to get Relyte lynched, when we were most likely lynching Relyte anyway.

[Patrick]

Your convinced that his LoS is genuine, or you find him suspicious? He hasn't explained his placement of myself or Stoofer on his list.

[Patrick]

Cephir, you still haven't explained the placement of Stoofer and myself on that list.

[Patrick]

I think I read that we're getting one or two replacements in this game. Still very suspicious of Cephir, with the exception of his top suspect, I don't like his suspect list at all. He has Stoofer coming in at 2nd for apparently not contributing much, which I can't say I'd noticed and which is very hypocritical anyway. I also don't like how he seems to be trying to set Thesp and Pooky up for a fall if we mislynch, and I still think he may well have just slipped up when he said his line that sounded like he knows Relyte is scum. Oh and I also wonder if my appearance on his original list for no reason was just him following Pooky.

[Patrick]

I don't think it's reasonable to have a go at Cephrir on the basis of a list he was asked to provide. It's not as if he volunteered the information out of the blue; he was responding to something asked by Pooky, and presumably expected that everyone else would follow suit with lists of their own. You may not agree with his list but I think it's wrong to accuse him of trying to achieve anything devious by providing it.

Whereas I on the other hand think it's perfectly reasonable. I don't think the fact that he wasn't giving any suspicions before helps him at all. What does it change that I asked him to provide it? I think if he's scum, he probably cobbled it together really quickly. If he's town, then I would hope there's some kind of natural progression leading up to his suspicions. So I'm trying to look further at them do decide whether they're fabricated or not. And since I have noticed several ppl contributing less than Stoofer, that part at least seems dodgy.

[Patrick]

Looks fair enough to me. We may be waiting until saturday for spectrumvoid though, since she is on a camp. Unless Relyte would be good enough to drop by and tell us his alignment.

[Patrick]

Vitamin, can you explain why you find Ripley suspicious? You mentioned it earlier and said you would try to state a case later. At the moment I think Ripley looks pro town. Will need to look back, but Cephir still looks scummy.

[Patrick]

Not much I can say about the jl lynch; I just didn't really think he was scum, so I didn't vote him. Not being on the Nightfall lynch is irrelevant though. I was suspicious of him and was happy to lynch him. I didn't lay down any vote because I believe I was waiting to hear from ppl who hadn't been saying much.

I'll look back in a while and see how I suspect, but instant reaction so far would be Ceohir.

[Patrick]

Oooh the hypocrisy. I would like to see the reasoning too though.

[Patrick]

I think Brian's post 151 makes good sense if he is scum.

[Patrick]

vote: Dead Riki

[Patrick]

I think it would be best to lynch me. I've just recently been lynched as town in another game, so at least I can stop trying to hang onto that record. I'm not the guy you're looking for, but I can see how keeping me around would just make you all paranoid. I look quite like a scumbuddy to those who were scum, because I didn't peg two of them at all, and I've just generally been in the wrong places at the wrong times. My best guesses for the last scum would be IH or VitaminR. I still think we'll win, but don't get lured into complacency if the numbers start coming down.

[Patrick]

It's not an appeal to emotion you idiot. I'm telling ppl to lynch me. I've played enough to know that ppl won't just think 'Oh if he were scum he would never say lynch me, too much of a bluff'. I think lynching me will help because otherwise, ppl will be suspicious of me everyday.

[Patrick]

townie.

[Patrick]

Yay! Town wins, no thanks to me. Well played Thesp in particular.

[Patrick]

I'd have bussed Nightfall. Not sure about Ripley though, maybe you could have tried to keep him around a while longer. Your voting record was great by then anyway, so being wrong about him might not have looked so bad; it might even have made your voting record seem more realistic for a pro town player.