Open 6 - Nightless (Ended) - before 388

[VitaminR]

Oh oops, that's what I get for only reading the first post. Eheh.

1)Uh... sure, you can take power you have a lot more experience than me. Meh. I don't see what the point of this question was.

Vote: Relyte

Pooky's questions:
1) Awfully WIFOMy. I'm tempted to follow you and see where it leads, but I'm also very aware of the fact that you are a ballsy enough player to bluff scum to victory like this. It's an interesting proposal, though, and one that I hope will make this game very intriguing. For the moment, I would definitely endorse a Kingmaker-like structure, but simply because you proposed it, I would not want you in that position.

2) Depends on what comes along. Every game is different, every player is different. I have no real set strategies.

3) Realistically, I think it will take a couple of months. Day 1 should not be more than a couple of weeks. I will read every post and I will post regularly.

[VitaminR]

Btw, where alternative voting structures are concerned, I'd actually be more interested in something that isn't as limiting.

We need to keep voting records. That is all we have to go on. Kingmaker would reduce our information like that.

Actually,

FOS: Pooky

for suggesting it.

What about preferential voting or pair voting? Something that forces a decision on more than one player out of every player.

[VitaminR]

What about preferential voting or pair voting? Something that forces a decision on more than one player out of every player.

Could you explain how these systems would work? They sound quite interesting. Would they make it easier to get to a majority? I do think there's a danger of the game taking a very long time, meaning a high risk of player dropout, so anything that could move things along without sacrificing voting records and player info might be helpful.

Preferential voting is a form of list voting. Everyone would rank the players in the game according to who they think is most scummy. Then you count the first place votes (so the person perceived as most scummy by the individual player). You then eliminate the player(s) with the least votes. The people who had someone who was eliminated in first place then get their second place votes counted. The players with the least votes are then eliminated again and the third place votes are counted. This continues until there are only two people left.

There are different types of this kind of voting. This is called Instant Run-off Voting. I probably explained it somewhat vaguely, so here's a link that might do it more clearly:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant-runoff_voting

Pair voting would involve randomly pairing up all the players and having a vote-off between each pair. The winners (or losers) would be randomly paired up again and voted on until there's only one person left.

The advantage of both is that you get pretty extensive voting records, but you'd also need to decide on a time to start voting and a way to exert pressure on people in the meantime in order not to lose information gained through bandwagons.

[VitaminR]

I don't like the pair voting idea for deciding our lynches. I think it will create some unfair situations. Imagine two clean looking ppl are paired up and two scummy ppl are paired up. Under that system you force one of the clean looking ppl to progress to the next round so to speak, just because he was unlucky in who he was paired with. Meanwhile one scummy looking player gets to be out of contention immediately. Whereas normally we would want to consider lynching the scummiest ppl. Pair voting just seems an odd way or sorting things. If we are ever desperate to find out who ppl think is more scummy out of two players, we can always just get everyone to say. I don't think everyone needs pairing up.

That's a valid point, though you could always lose the elimination aspect. That way every player would be paired up with every other player at some point and you'd make a chart of the result. That might be a lot of voting, though.

It mostly seems interesting to experiment with this and I do think extensive voting records would be very useful.

[VitaminR]

Oh oops, that's what I get for only reading the first post. Eheh.

1)Uh... sure, you can take power you have a lot more experience than me. Meh. I don't see what the point of this question was.

Vote: Relyte

VitaminR please elaborate what was wrong with my post, in all honesty I don't see what was wrong with my post, I think you misinterpreted.

My vote is my vote, I can always make the choice in who to lynch. However, if Pooky suggests someone, I will make use of his knowledge and my own before voting.

It's not like, "Oh Pooky says it's so-and-so, so I'm going to vote so-and-so too."

I will take his knowledge into account, and come to think of it, everyone's.

It just seemed too easy to me. Going along with something that major without a real reason. It struck me as something scum might do when unsure of how to fool an experienced player in the course of the game.

[VitaminR]

VitaminR touched on what I think is a real problem with any of these non-standard voting systems - there would have to be a substantial pre-vote phase in order to establish reasons for voting anyone, and it would be more difficult than usual to find reasons, without the normal business of voting, bandwagons etc in place.

And in a similar (or maybe converse) sort of way, any kind of pair voting that didn't lead to elimination would lack any real teeth so I'm not sure how useful it could ever be. And it may prove hard enough to keep this game moving along, without stopping to accumulate masses of preference voting data.

I have to agree with your objections really. Mostly I think it is hard to gauge what the effects will be, because its use is fairly unprecedented (as far as I'm aware, anyway). Perhaps it is an experiment for another game. It's certainly something that I would like to see implemented, but a game designed specifically for that purpose could very well be the best place for it.

Vitamin did you also notice that Thesp did the same thing as Relyte? Looked like sucking up to an experienced player if you ask me.
Ripley - I've actually seen him do it in a chat game, I haven't seen him do it in a forum game though it sounds like a Pookyish thing to do.

I did, but Thesp's post seemed more jokey to me. He didn't seem to relinquish his personal opinion. I have to admit to a possible bias here, however. Thesp strikes me a much more experienced player.

[VitaminR]

Pooky is town, it's clearly best to let him take a stab at the mafia.

I have to admit this does make me wonder. Thesp, could you clarify?

[VitaminR]

His Thesp vote isn't even what strikes me as most scummy. Subsequently ignoring the votes on you and pretty randomly voting IH for arguing with Relyte doesn't make any sense.

Relyte, I don't know what I've done to earn the tag 'paranoid.' I think it is pretty normal to expect a mixed response to a proposal like this and it does not necessarily constitute complete polarisation.

Unvote: Relyte,
Vote: jl2704

[VitaminR]

Pretty swamped at the moment, so this is basically just a note saying I'll post something more substantial once I have time.

[VitaminR]

Finally found the time to do a re-read.

Posts that I found suspicious:

I'm willing to hammer jl, or I was before our little forum break.
But I think we may benefit a bit from refamiliarizing ourselves with the situation first.

I'll hold off at least long enough for people to voice whether jl's last post has swayed anyone.

That last sentence is really off. He's basically saying that he is willing to hammer jl2704, but that he doesn't think he's scum (because then he would want him lynched).

I'm getting similar ideas to IH. If jl is scum, his case is now looking so hopeless that his scum buddies are likely to be jumping on the wagon now while there's still time, to make themselves look good on the voting records. They probably don't even want him to come back and defend himself, quite likely he'd only make things worse, manage to implicate them maybe. It's the people holding off their vote, counselling caution and giving him time to answer who sound the most innocent to me.

If Thesp were scum with jl, then his "Nightfall is next - if jl is scum Nightfall almost certainly is too" is a smart move. Because when jl does turn out scum, the seeds of Nightfall's guilt have already been planted in everyone's minds and Thesp has probably established the leading lynch candidate for the next day. If you're going to lose a scum buddy Day 1, you might as well try to extract some value from it.

All this of course depends on jl being scum. If he's innocent I'm sure there will be scum voting him, though probably earlier on the voting list than if he's scum, where I think the scum votes will be the later ones.

As was pointed out then, the whole "if he's scum"-line sounds really suspicious. Ripley basically seems to be doing damage control.

Unvote

, because apparently I never did.

Cephrir unrandomvoted when there were 5 or 6 votes on jl2704. His was a lone vote and this seems absolutely useless. It's a small thing, but it feels like he's just buying time.

I made a decent-sized post asking one of you to explain it, but I just went back and read nightfall's posts.

Unvote, Vote Nightfall

.
He has no content in his posts, except for when he says (In 3 separate posts) "Oh, I might vote jl. I'll vote jl later. I'll consider voting jl but I didn't because <insert excuse here>. If you don't support lynching jl, don't vote him."

He seems to intend to defend Nightfall, but instead sells him out rather quickly. He goes from attacking Thesp and his link to Pooky to following both.

.....Relyte hammered, and then said we don't know if he's scum....

skimmer.

ANYWAYS, I hate to say it but... on my reread.... I'm getting more and more of a Pooky protown vibe. I'll finish it when I get home, cause I'm at school now, but...

they're right. Nightfall's posts have next to no content in them. He's just been lurking with posts. AKA only agreeing, disagreeing, etc.

unvote, Vote Nightfall

This is similar.

I picked out. Nightfall and Ripley are the most suspicious for me here. Nightfall hasn't really said anything constructive and I don't buy his sincerity when it came to the jl2704 lynch.

Ripley has contributed, but there's something that feels scummy about most of his analysis. It could be that I don't agree with a lot of it and feel that he's trying to steer people in the wrong direction.

Cephrir hasn't contributed much either, but in what he does post he sometimes genuinely seems to be trying to gain an insight into the game.

My suspicions of IH are weakest, since I feel his analysis has largely been helpful.

I would quite like Thesp to explain why he thought Nightfall had to be scum if jl was scum when he gets the time.

Because Nightfall was acting in a way that would better jl2704's position while trying to appear as though he thought jl2704 was scum.

I agree and I don't have any qualms about putting on a fifth vote.

Vote: Nightfall

Do you think Pooky is town?

Didn't see an answer from Vitamin I believe.

I'm not sure. Trying to take control of the game is a bit scummy, but he doesn't seem to have really attempted to steer the game anywhere. At the moment, I'm not convinced either way.

[VitaminR]

Ripley has contributed, but there's something that feels scummy about most of his analysis. It could be that I don't agree with a lot of it and feel that he's trying to steer people in the wrong direction.

It's very easy to make comments like this that sling mud around without actually saying anything specific enough that people can respond. I mean, how can I possibly reply? It's unanswerable.

I know. I'll try to pinpoint it for you as I feel strong enough about this to intend to build a case against you, but I don't have the time to go through all your posts at the moment. For now, it is just a point of reference.

[VitaminR]

Wow... we are awesome.

[VitaminR]

I am unnerved by Thesp and Pooky's rightness. = D

Pooky hasn't steered us wrong before (and I think it's a good play.)

I think there's a kind of myth developing here that isn't entirely backed up by the facts. Pooky didn't pick either of the two lynches so far. Nightfall was chosen by Thesp. As for jl, to an extent he chose himself, but it was actually Mr Stoofer who jumped on him.

With Nightfall turning out scum I'm very much inclined to think Thesp is clear, though I accept what somebody (Patrick?) said about the dangers of treating anybody as definitely clear. But I am not extending this to Pooky. I thought it was weird how he called Relyte for the next lynch

before

Nightfall's alignment was known. Also there was something Thesp said way back about how in his experience Pooky is more likely to play this way when pro-town. Here we have two players who have been around a long time and Thesp's comment seems to confirm they've played together quite a lot. I said at the time that Pooky must be equally aware of their joint experience and would expect Thesp to react this way. Also he would know Thesp's playstyle, that he'd probably take the lead in the game and that he'd be likely to play along (with the I'll follow Pooky" proposal). So I remain wary of Pooky at present and am certainly not treating the two of them as a glorious single entity.

I largely agree with this. The way Thesp called out Nightfall clears him for the moment, in my opinion. Pooky jumped on jl when his death was fairly inevitable, though. He also basically followed Thesp on Nightfall. It does speak for him, but he isn't completely cleared by it.

This has made me waver on Ripley slightly. I need to find time for a thorough re-read.

I think Cephrir was almost too obvious in how he defended/sold out Nightfall. Relyte was also pretty blatantly scummy with his early jl FOS. I don't know, they could be both be scum, but it seems almost too easy.

Relyte's last post pretty much seals it for me, though. Not defending yourself and instead going after your most high-profile attacker with no real reason to is so scummy. I mean, Pooky has only really pushed wagons on scum. Sure, the manner in which it happened isn't unequivocal, but it still speaks in his favour.

Vote: Relyte

[VitaminR]

Still happy with a Relyte lynch.

My list would probably be something like this:

Relyte
Ripley/Cephrir
BrianMcQueso
Pooky
Stoofer

[VitaminR]

Vitamin please!

Sorry, I'm having some very busy weeks.

At first, it was mostly a gut feeling. Re-reading, I think I've struck upon what bothers me.

He doesn't vote.

There's a lot of analysis and putting forward what is suspicious about players, but he never commits. It's this lack of transparency that bothers me. His contributions are regular and elaborate, but there is something vague about his own position in them. There's a lot of speculation on who could be scum and what their actions could mean in that light, but there is no real structure.

I was starting to get Ripley's prudence, though. I don't like how his first vote is basically an OMGUS, however. It does not seem that well-supported, especially for someone who cites caution.

Vote: Ripley

for the moment. Call it not rocking the boat if you want, but I do think this is the best move at the moment.

Where is the hypocrisy?

If Jeff wants to see his hot neighbor Jessica naked, but does not want her to see him naked, does that make him a hypocrite?

Yes and it also makes him suspicious.

I don't like this post at all.

FOS: Pooky

[VitaminR]

Where is the hypocrisy?

If Jeff wants to see his hot neighbor Jessica naked, but does not want her to see him naked, does that make him a hypocrite?

Yes and it also makes him suspicious.

Also: creepy.

[VitaminR]

Okay... well, I'm glad I was right about Ripley.

I just did a re-read on everyone.

Look at Patrick's voting record. A Thesp vote, an IH FOS and a Dead Rikimaru vote.

Vote: Patrick

[VitaminR]

I expect this game to be over soon, but still:

A note: I won't have much access in the coming two weeks. I'll try to post at least once, though. I'm posting this in all my games.

[VitaminR]

I got back from holiday and then my internet access went down. Sorry. I will read up now.

[VitaminR]

Stoof has been on every scum lynch, which is pretty eerie. The way he went after Ripley places him above consideration for me at the moment.

I feel the same way about Thesp and Nightfall.

Pooky I really can't read, but he has backed up some good lynches.

Cephrir's voting and suspicions record is pretty awful. That justifies a lynch in itself for me. Ripley's comment does get in the way there for me, though. Thesp makes a good point.

That leaves IH. He has been on every lynch without pushing any of them. If he's scum, he's played a good game, because I'm honestly not sure. He seems the best candidate at the moment, though. The jump on Cephrir and the out-of-the-blue Nightfall vote (like I pointed out at some point, it read like scum selling out their scum buddy) do speak against him.

Vote: IH

This is my list, for whoever's interested:

IH
Cephrir
Pooky
Mr. Stoofer
Thesp.

[VitaminR]

Sorry, I still do not have regular access. Feel free to replace me. I'd rather you didn't and I'll post something now, though.

[VitaminR]

Ripley said that Vitamin R touched upon the real problem... but Vitamin R said that these extensive voting records would be helpful.

He meant this:

but you'd also need to decide on a time to start voting and a way to exert pressure on people in the meantime in order not to lose information gained through bandwagons.

I don't really see how you can come to these conclusions based on talk about voting mechanics, btw.

[VitaminR]

There is nothing substantial in the interaction with scum that you quote, IH. The fact that I had a gut suspicion Ripley was scum makes me scummy?

Purely for how he called out Nightfall, I think Thesp is town.

There are other reasons for it, but that alone is enough for me, really.

I'd be willing to follow Pooky's idea.

Scum is definitely one of these:
Cephrir
IH
Pooky

I'm not that active, I wouldn't be much of a loss. I don't mind sacrificing myself.

Unvote: IH

Vote: VitaminR

[VitaminR]

[quote="spectrumvoid"]The mod has decided to take measures.

I have decided to replace VitaminR, for having not constant access. He has also failed to pick up his prod again, which is driving me up the wall.

Welcome KaleiÐoscøpe!

Pooky will be next if he doesn't pick up his latest prod. Standard rules say that >48 hours = prod, and failure to pick up prod = replacement.[/quote]

I actually checked my PMs yesterday after you said you'd prodded people, in case you meant me (I have been following the thread, nothing had really changed). I didn't see a PM, though (I still don't).

Other than that, I got regular access back this morning.

I'm fine with bowing out if that's what you prefer, though.

[VitaminR]

Thank you both.

As no-one else seems willing to lynch me and take my three picks, I'll switch back to my nr. 1 suspect.

Unvote: VitaminR,
Vote: IH

[VitaminR]

Stoofer was spot on with his votes, but that is almost too perfect to be real.

I honestly don't know about Pooky.

Cephrir is the best candidate except for Ripley's need to include him as a suspect. That does count rather strongly, though.

I think it is either Pooky or Stoofer.

Re-reading, only Stoofer's Ripley seem truly out of place for scum. It was pretty unprompted.

I think I'd like to take out Pooky, Stoofer & me and then have Cephrir and Thesp be the last ones alive. Scum should be one of those two.

With that in mind:

Vote: Mr Stoofer

[VitaminR]

That was quick. I hope that ends the game.

[VitaminR]

Comments:
I must say I was rather disappointed with the activity in here, and I wasn't really sure what to do. I didn't like this setup, but it was an easy one to mod (it's my 1st.) I was also quite surprised at the way town went a-lynching.

Any suggestions on modding?

I think you did a great job modding and I'm truly sorry I contributed to your disappointment.

Stoofer, I think you played a great game. You weren't really lynched for not voting townies, though. Firstly, you were lynched fairly late. It was 7 townies to 1 scum at one point. Just from random lynches, the last scum was bound to come up at some point. Secondly, it was as much a process of deduction as it was hunting for scum. Thirdly, the fact that a player doesn't find the way you voted scum believable in retrospect isn't necessarily a sign that your play was too perfect, nor that voting more townies would have helped.

I do personally think, however, that your play was near perfect and that the loss was only really to due with losing all your scum buddies quite early.

[VitaminR]

Way to mess up "to do" and "due to."

[VitaminR]

It is certainly ironic to think that the town's success early on in this game was largely due to your influence.

I don't think that is really true, though. jl2704 certainly screamed scum. Ripley perhaps not as much, but that was more due to the fact that you were the first one to notice his lack of voting and that would have come out anyway.

You could possibly argue that the speed with which it caused the game to be played made it more difficult to capitalise on town indecision (jl2704's lynch could have possibly been dragged out and the same goes for Ripley's) or that the speed of the first two lynches caught some of your scum buddies off guard (it certainly contributed to Ripley and Nightfall's lynches). It is a difficult thing to gauge, though. I do think all of them were fairly inevitable and your vote on its own does not make it impossible for them to avoid being lynched.