Mini Normal 1460 - Normalville Mafia (GAME OVER)

[Miss Stranger]

Hello dears, I've been reading the topic since I applied for replacement but it's going to take me a few hours more, probably. Once I'm done I'll give my initial thoughts!

[Miss Stranger]

Okay, I'm mostly done reading this, it took me a lot more than I initially thought.. -_-

Well, I better get some sleep now, I'll try to post my reads as soon as possible, and perhaps a collective table with everyone's reads so we can compare and analyse easier. Good night ^^;

[Miss Stranger]

So, current reads, will start with people with most votes first since the deadline is approaching.

Elyse:

First thing that strikes me about her is contradiction ("I like being able to kill someone without anyone else weighing in." vs "Wagons... vote" / "I agree with Slandaar... vote"). Clearly she is okay with sheeping and being influenced by someone else. I like her stance on NL, I'm against it, too (but then, everybody sort of is). 155 indicates further "good point, let's lynch those". I like 244, she finally appears with strong opinions on her own. Post 313 is off. Elyse accusing someone else of sheeping reads? 2 posts later, she sheeps Nachomamma's reads.

He says that he's willing to be lynched, but then asks if we want him to claim? What's that about? If you want to be lynched, what's the point of claiming and possibly stalling your lynch?

I hope she's not being serious here. Nobody is willing to self-lynch, that's gamethrowing. Obviously he was reaction testing to see if someone will wagon him. I'm going to have to say I don't like her defence against Nachomamma, although she makes a few good points. I really, really don't like the further contradiction "I agree about this lynch" vs "I like to kill someone without influence" vs "Am I supposed to have unique reads or something? Am I not allowed to agree with the general consensus?". Some backseat scumhunting posts. I like 616. In fact I like the further posts.

In general however, Elyse shapes up as more of an enigma, very slightly leaning towards mafia, but I'm going to go currently with a null. Sheeping reads is simply not alarming enough for me.

[Miss Stranger]

Baezu:

Insta-FoS on BP for voting NL. Apparently that alarmed everybody, and I'm not going to lie, it alarmed even me when I was reading the thread before replacing. Defending someone for a good reason is not scummy. I like she picks on classic scum tells, these are likely the most genuine ones and not something scum would twist and fabricate to frame an innocent. "I feel the scum would want to NK me" is quite bold, but could be WIFOM. Everybody found Future scummy, the point about Slandaar is null. I agree about Darthe however, that "let's hammer" was suspicious (could have been reaction test, not sure?). I think calling out scumteams this early is a waste of time however, we could definitely use D1 reads to link scumteams, but I don't think that could happen during D1. Her scumteam couples change with every other post, further confirming my view. (this is more of a null tell). If a post seems "incredibly scummy", why aren't you voting the poster? "I'm town as fuck" is not going to work on anybody. She points out the same things about Elyse I noticed before without even reading Nachomamma and her comments. Clearly I'm not the only person who feels irked about it. I like that. Baezu, what are your general reads, specifically about people on your wagon?

I'm leaning town on Baezu at this point.

[Miss Stranger]

Nacho, I'd really like to know how Elyse suddenly ceases being scummy and Baezu becomes scummy. Without referencing ongoing games, I'm also eager to call out scumteams and change my opinion mid-day. That's something coming from excitement at seeing something others probably don't see. It's not helpful and most likely a waste of time, but not necessarily scummy. Her vote on you was not opportunistic, it was out of annoyance that everyone sort of suspects you but nobody actually votes you. Fair point on chaining lynches however, but not scummy enough. I think you are wrong about Baezu, all in all.

Now explain me what made Elyse town to you.

[Miss Stranger]

Darthe:

Claim and hammer, I hope that was a reaction test. Post 129 may seem like a joke, but I actually somehow like it. It feels uneasy when you don't know how many enemies you are facing and to what extend you should trust others around you. I don't however see how Future's post screamed town or how Ztife's case was "town read". It was a long wall of information instead of analysis, everyone can tell why NL on D1 is bad. BP was obviously playing too much EpicMafia. Next, Darthe says NL on D1 is good? Didn't he just award Ztife a town read for saying the opposite? I think he either didn't read Ztife's post or didn't understand it; or probably goes with the flow, all of those speak bad. If he doesn't like people on Future's train, why is it that he doesn't like people jumping off either? Next, he predicts scum team right after accusing Baezu of doing the same, Elyse style. Nice reaction test, though, if it indeed was intended as such. I agree about SunnyDays, he's most likely a VI, sorry no offence. Some fluff posts, ignoring them. What does 381 even mean? He criticises the poorly made analysis but bases conclusions off it? 414: of course RD didn't want to die, that's just stupid. Again, Elyse style he takes his actions as literally as possible, because that's most convenient (he thinks he can't get blame for misinterpretation, because after all RD said "lynch me" in straight text).

Weak shit bargaining here, this is definitely what I expect of scum play. So, yes. I will happily vote myself if you flip town. Question is, since you don't actually think I am scum as evidenced by your response to Grimgrooves post above, why do you want to kill another townie if you flip as one as well?

Except you don't actually mean that, do you?
Then comes this:

Fuck, I really wanted you to be town. How did this drivel make its way into a case? How can you admit to doing one thing and simultaneously continue to accept it in yourself while condemning it in another? Worse, using that as a point against them.

I want this day to end, I want info, and it is tiring to watch continue.

unvote vote: beazu

All this game, throughout the entire game, you build a case against Red Dragon, you are certain he is scum and all that jazz. Suddenly Baezu looks like a sizeable wagon and you instantly forget about Red Dragon and hop there immediately, based on completely nonexistent scum read. I'm sorry, but that's as scummy as it gets. Refer to Antagon in Newbie 1391 and Honest Abel in Newbie 1344.

VOTE: Darthe

[Miss Stranger]

I voted Darthe because I believe I had seen a scumslip from him. A very strong scumslip I've already seen twice and both times it was coming from the scum; the only difference in Darthe's case is that he didn't have a wagon before I voted him. I don't think that makes the slip less important, to be honest; he voted a person he considered town the entire game. ONE post, which wasn't that suspicious to begin with, caused him to change his mind. Coincidentally, Baezu had a sizeable wagon at this point. Then he unvoted his strongest suspect (one he was 100% sure of being mafia) and blatantly sheeped Baezu. I said it before, and I'll repeat it; if this is the only scumslip a person makes, I'm willing to lynch that person no matter how town he has been.

I'll have to say, though, I was honestly a little surprised when I received such massive vote support in such a short time. Is it that everyone sort of suspected Darthe, or opportunistic jumps for an easy lynch?

[Miss Stranger]

It's not as huge as Future's lynch, but 3 instavotes (not counting yours since you already suspected him) is always alarming.

[Miss Stranger]

@Darthe:

Do you seriously think I'm buying your case against Baezu? I already pointed out in my previous, independent, post-by-post analysis on Elyse: she contradicts herself all the time and then accuses people of being scum for things she herself does. First post: "I want to kill someone without influence". Rest of the game: "I agree with that", "Yes, that's sort of true", "Mhm, lynch him". I don't want to repeat myself. Read my own post about Elyse. The essence is: accusing someone of things you yourself do renders your case void and drops you down the scumslope. Do I need to explain that? Fine, I will.

Assume Johnny does X. According to Alfred, X is very scummy. Alfred has been doing X all game. By Alfred's own logic, he himself is mafia. The self-declared mafia accuses Johnny of being scum. Johnny points out how Alfred is wrong. You say pointing out how Alfred is wrong is scummy.

So to sum up, you:
1) switch sheepportunistically on Baezu, ignoring your mega-suspect (his wagon had lost momentum by that time)
2) ignore all town reads on Baezu
3) say Baezu is scummy using a self-contradictory logic
4) say I'm committing a logical fallacy for ignoring town reads on you

Explain to me how is your case valid and why you shouldn't be lynched already. "Talking out of your ass" is not an acceptable defence. Also I'm a she (and so is Baezu).

[Miss Stranger]

@EVERYONE

Make sure you vote today to achieve a lynch. It was already explained how no-lynch is a poor development.

[Miss Stranger]

Did Elyse accuse Baezu of sheeping reads? Yes. Did she think she was scummy for that? Yes. Was Elyse sheeping reads herself? Yes. And you accused Baezu of being scum for pointing that out. The illogical hypothetical situation is WHAT HAPPENED IN THIS GAME.

I rest my case.

[Miss Stranger]

You are all being ridiculous. Take your head out of your ass for like five minutes.

Miss Stranger's case is bs. So what if someone accuses someone else of doing something they did? Why would scum do that? They wouldn't bring attention to something they did as scummy, whereas town would take the risk to get a scumread lynched.

You need to take your emotions aside and decide this logically. Darthe isn't scum. Just because he's "mean" (which he's not) doesn't mean he's part of the mafia.

Because this accusation is INVALID. You can't accuse for something you've been doing all game. That's equivalent to accusing yourself.
Baezu simply pointed that out. Darthe wants to lynch Baezu for pointing it out. I seriously don't understand how can't no one see the ridiculousness of this.

[Miss Stranger]

I can bet a solid sum there's at least 2 scums on Baezu's wagon. Holy hell. Lynch Darthe now.

[Miss Stranger]

Um, by the way what's odd cop? Investigates on N1, N3, N5?

[Miss Stranger]

I think you should investigate Nachomamma8. He's very hard to read through, but will be of great help if clear and great danger if evil. That's just my opinion.

[Miss Stranger]

Nice hammer without intent.

[Miss Stranger]

I can see I was wrong about Darthe, and upon reinspection I concluded I had given his fake hammer way too little credit. But then, as I said, I'm willing to lynch everyone who hops onto opportunistic wagons on previously town reads in the end of the day, while ignoring their current strongest scum read. It was just too scummy, sorry Darthe.

I will explain tomorrow, but PLEASE do not investigate me. You will have to trust me on this.

We are waiting :3

@Grimgroove:

Elaborate a bit on that vote please?

[Miss Stranger]

I was waiting for Baezu to answer the question, but her response is pretty satisfactory. I think her claim is genuine. I've been suspecting it since the beginning, but kept my mouth shut. The way she requested doctor protection several times before even claiming was a huge giveaway. Baezu is 100% town in my eyes.

It's beyond question she was roleblocked.

[Miss Stranger]

Sometimes I wonder if this is a village or a flock of bleating animals.

[Miss Stranger]

Elyse, this posts sounds seriously murky.

[Miss Stranger]

I've said it before and I'll say it now, there is no way I'll believe Baezu to be scum, unless that was a fake claim prepared in advance and she's just pretending to be a newbie, which is IMO pretty far fetched and a waste of time considering.

@Elyse:

Miller jack of all trades is about on the same level of ridiculousness as a NK immune overeager miller vig, aka SK. It's pretty much common sense why your ability can never be 100% tested, but let me explain it just in case, here's how one could possibly walk away:
- "Mafia kill failed"
- "Mafia killed the same target"
- "My target must've been doctored or bulletproof maf"
- "I must've been roleblocked"

That said, I'm all up for allowing you a night to prove it, but with a roleblocker around I have very low expectations. You are either scum or scum will frame you, there's simply nothing else that can happen.

@Slandaar:

No, just no. Outing more power roles in the face of the scum roleblocker will simply render everyone vanilla townie. Massclaim will likely soon happen, but not today.

[Miss Stranger]

@Nachopappa:

Elyse claimed her role on D2, not D1. That said, I don't entirely disbelieve her, I'm just taking her claim with a pinch of salt.

@chernobylcitybus, PeregrineV:

You have some explaining to do.

@Grimgroove:

The same can be asked as to why Elyse wants to be proved tonight if she knows she'll be roleblocked.

[Miss Stranger]

Hmm, you're definitely right. But wouldn't welcoming an investigation followed by roleblock make her look even worse? Like she expected it. I don't know. On the other hand, begging not to be investigated knowing there's a roleblocker? The most natural thing scum would do is keep their mouth shut, there's no reason to beg or welcome an investigation if you knew cop won't get a report in either case.

You bring up a strong town tell, which can only be swayed by the unlikely fact Elyse wasn't aware she had a roleblocker on her team... OR it was a defence prepared in advance, knowing she'd likely be investigated. God, I'm overthinking this, ain't I?

It still bothers me she didn't claim miller right off the bat, as town not knowing cop would out or be blocked or as scum having prepared to claim miller should they not nail the cop very early.

[Miss Stranger]

Legend:

-2

= scum;

-1

= scummy;

0

= null;

+1

= leaning town;

+2

= town.

PeregrineV (

-1

)

This person mostly sheeps and lurks. He muttered some lie about Darthe and hammered him without intent. I don't trust him.

Darthe (town)

As I said already, I was clearly wrong about him and gave far greater weight on the sheepportunistic jump upon Baezu than it actually deserved. At that point Baezu was oddly clingy for survival, which I explained to myself as either scum or a town power role, leaning towards the latter, which is why I believed her to be town despite the oddities. Of course, I kept my mouth shut, but once she claimed I was quickly to believe it because of my former read on her. Apparently Darthe just thought otherwise, but pulled up the wrong reason, which was glaringly scummy for me.

He made a point that he saw BP as scummy and me as null, because I saw the game very differently. This is a good time to remind others that I'm a late replacement and was fed enormous amounts of posts (lots of them pretty big, hi Grimgroove ) over very short time. My reads were almost exclusively ISO based rather than interaction-based, which may have caused noticeable distortion in my game view and alarmed Darthe. Sadly I can't read Day 1 the exact same way as the others, and I'm sure players who've replaced late in the game can relate.

His dying Fingers oS were on Red Dragon, on Baezu and on me for condemning his logic (#723) on the Baezu FoS. I will not back out my condemnation because his logic was extremely poor, not to mention Baezu is clearly town (I will later explain why she is town).

His case on RD was along the lines of "he's laying low", "he's self-voting", "he is upset because Sunny Days lynch died". Whether or not we should look deep into it remains questionable, seeing how his reads were mostly wrong.

Slandaar (

+2

)

I think Slandaar's play so far has been a classic analytical scumhunter, observing all angles and weighing his decision carefully, but once he's convinced of something, he will most likely defend it to the point when mod reveals the truth. I fear his rigidity might sway his decision in the wrong direction, but I like his confidence and passion. I can't help but imagine a marching general towards the enemy fortress who'd stop at nothing to destroy it. Strong town read from him at this point.

Grimgroove (

+2

)

Grimgroove's play is very similar to mine, except he drops ALL his thoughts down which makes him seem a little hesitating and consequently less charismatic. Notice how he and I said basically the same thing about Darthe in the end of the day, only his post was quite roundabout and more of a light conversation and mine was a direct, aggressive accusation. I do think he'd do good to be more confident, as a calm conversation wouldn't stress the scum and make them panic, but would rather allow them stay calm and build up a defence. However his scumhunting is excellent and I like how I think of something, then look at his post and see he thought the exact same thing. Obvious townie is obvious.

Ztife (

-1

)

Her involvement is flaking and her scum case against my predecessor was all in all a wall of IIoA about how NL on D1 is bad. Funny thing that Darthe had a town read on her precisely because of that post, which seemed to me, Baezu and Grimgroove scummy. I'd wait to see a little more from her, but so far I'm dissatisfied. I don't trust her.

Nachopappa (

0

)

Village jester? (the person, not the role). Odd sheeping, odd reasoning, seems very influenced by others' reactions, his attitude strikes me as town but his actions as scum, and he's basically impossible to read for me. He could be any role, any alignment. Leaning slightly towards town, though, but not enough to get a +1, sorry Nacho, I appreciate the appreciation though. :3

Baezu (

+2

)

This is why Baezu is town:

BP

I am no afraid and I'm not going to get lynched

. Sorry that my confidence intimidates you but a lot of my logic is not superficial - it comes from what the rules say are classic scum tells.

You guys need to listen to Slandaar. I am TOWN. I swear to you. The reason that I want to lynch BP is because he just seems to me to REEK of scum so why not continue to try to push for someone that I feel is scum? That is also the reason I was not willing to move my vote. But, since people obviously cannot be convinced by my words

I will just have to wait for the mafia to NK me n1

to show you my role PM. Maybe there is a

doctor out there who is willing to protect me

because as I said before, I am TOWN. Also, when I get killed will you please vote for BP. That is my dying wish. For now, I will vote with those who are more experienced and take their word that future is indeed scum. Hopefully you guys are right.

Let's just hammer him and see instead of all this WIFOM. And

if I survive the nk we can talk about who's actually scummy tomorrow

.

I will claim if you force me but it won't be good for town

Not sure of the roles in this game or even what they are and how many they are but

I'd love to have doc prot tonight.

In case you still don't understand: she's been involuntarily copslipping so hard the entire game I can't even believe she's still considered scummy. I shouldn't even need to elaborate on this. It's just glaringly obvious.

Miss Stranger (

town

)

Clearly I'm obviously town, hi there :3


This took me a lot of time and effort to prepare and I need a break, besides I have some housework to do right now, so I'm leaving my other reads unelaborated, but will explain them later today if I can.

Nachomamma8 (town)

Red Dragon (

0

)

chernobylcitybus (

0

)

Elyse (

0

)

SunnyDays (

+2

)

[Miss Stranger]

@Mod: V/LA until Saturday. Big sis is home :3

[Miss Stranger]

Hi there, I'm back. Catching up in progress!

[Miss Stranger]

Elyse (0)

Elyse (

+1

)

I believe Elyse's claim. It's a good idea to breadcrumb miller role, because there's a good chance it's miller for a reason - miller without cop in closed setup is pretty pointless. That said, although it can't be verified, mafia never gets vig shot, right?

Between shot and track, I'd say both are equally pointless right now. First, it's almost certainly going to be roleblocked. Second, as Slandaar said vig shot will stifle discussion, even if it hits scum. Track on the other hand AFAIK only works on the scum that is sent to perform the kill, others are staying at home, so the chance it catches someone are pretty small (although it'd be awesome if it does catch a scum).

@PeregrineV:

You're being awfully AFK and quiet for someone who's at L-1.

I intend to hammer

. Please claim and provide your reads on everybody.

Red Dragon (0)

Red Dragon (

-2

)

I really, really dislike your latest posts. Post 872 is painfully bad. A townie is a confirmed townie to themselves, what is this "reasonable conclusion" and "yeah, I've been pretty scummy"? If 873 are all your reads, then it looks like you don't even care about the game that much anymore. It really looks like you're just scum giving up.

[Miss Stranger]

@Ztife:

Oh, look, more IIoA and speculation, Ztife style. Can we get some actual reads and analysis from you?

[Miss Stranger]

@Mod: Please correct "873" in my post 891 to "885", I gave the wrong link.

[Miss Stranger]

Shut uuuuup, you ruined it

[Miss Stranger]

@PeregrineV:

Excuse me, but the only theory talk on my part was in regards to Elyse's role (someone had to point it out, and I don't see how that is incriminating in any way). In fact, theory talk is only incriminating if it takes priority over scumhunting - clearly not the case with me, and clearly the case with Ztife. Funny thing you don't even mention that. But I already suspect him anyway, so even more the reason to lynch him after you flip scum.
Why are you reading Slandaar's posts backwards? Of course analysis leads to conclusions and supports them. If this was an attempt to make Slandaar look scummy, I'm sorry but it backfired.

VOTE: PeregrineV

It's time to go where scumses belong to.

@Red Dragon:

If that's all your reads, you have stopped following the game long ago. I wonder why.

@SunnyDays:

What are the reasons, please?

[Miss Stranger]

Way to misrep me, PeregrineV:

665- About No lynching, self-lynching

1 sentence taken out of context.

666- About NL, and NK WIFOM

Analysis, not information.

669- Darthe vote when there are 3 3-vote wagons already.

Elyse (3) - Baezu, Slandaar, SunnyDays (L-4)
Nachomamma8 (3) - Red Dragon, PeregrineV, Ztife (L-4)
Baezu (3) - Nachomamma8, Elyse, Darthe (L-4)

If you actually read my reads, I was not leaning scum on either of those. So why sheep someone I don't find scummy enough instead of someone I had a strong read on? You prefer sheeping, really?

707-Seems more like white knighting Beazu while attacking Darthe using some weird theory

Look closely. I'm not whiteknighting Baezu, the "town tells" in this case are things Darthe himself admitted.

708-No Lynch reminder

Taking things out of context. This post was meant to remind people to vote and not that NL is bad.

739-Elyse accusation is INVALID while Darthe was SCUMSLIP

Honestly can you even read? I'm not accusing Elyse, I'm saying Darthe's accusation is void. The scumslip was the polar switch on Baezu from town to obvious scum based on the void logic and hopping on the wagon when it gained steam.

745- Two scum in

Nachomamma8

, Elyse,

Darthe

, Nachopappa, Ztife, Lucky2u

At that point most of those looked pretty scummy, Darthe specifically.

821-Town is Grim, Baezu (the claimed cop), Slandaar and SunnyDays, RedDragon, Nachopappa a null

So calling an obvious town "town" is now "too convenient"?

I don't know. I guess you could be town upon closer scrutiny. But sometimes your posts seem to be....wordy without being informative.

Every post of mine is informative.

But, I like your posting style.

What are you complaining about then?

PeregrineV (-1)

Peregrine (

-2

)

I stand by my vote. This attack was nitpicking at its finest.

@SunnyDays:

I do find him scummy. I just want to know YOUR reasons. Mine are already stated, and I don't think I'm the first one who noticed them.

[Miss Stranger]

Lol. I do that literally every game. It started with this (snippet from another game, I hope

gods

mods don't mind):



It's just a way to determine who is leaning what and how much in the event I decide to make a reads table for the game.

[Miss Stranger]

Do you do that as town and scum, Miss?

The 3 games I've done it are the only games of this particular kind of forum mafia I've ever played, and they are all ongoing. I sadly cannot answer metaquestions about my alignment in different games, but the honest answer is I'd do this both as town and as scum, it's just how I play.

Not a misrep, my opinion/interpretation.

So your opinion can include taking things out of context and misrepresenting posts (particularly 707 and 739), but I can't call you out on that? What makes your opinion immune to criticism?

Would you prefer me to think you scum for no reason?

No reason or faux reason makes no difference to me. I'm not scum, so you're clearly wrong. I reserve my right to think you're scummy for presenting bad and fabricated interpretation of my posts.

In addition to the Darthe scumslip that never was (because he flipped town)

He demonstrated careless and extremely anti-town behaviour, commonly known in my lexicon as scumslip (regardless of whether he was actually town or not).

, your listing of me as scum is also fail.

I can say the same thing.

So, in sum, you have a single player listed as scum who could actually be scum. And a game this size means there are usually 3.

In fact if you read properly, you'd see I've listed you, Ztife and Red Dragon as scum.

Perhaps now would be a good time to "flesh out" your null reads.

I flesh out a read the moment I acquire new information. I hide nothing.

Also the whole thing with the way Miss Stranger has a point system bothers me. It's kind of like "Hey look how town I am! I have charts and a point system,

no scum would do this

!". It's dangerous because I assume she does it when town and scum and that she must never get called out as scum because of it.

Really now?

You can't call out someone as town or scum because they analyse and rate players. Naturally both town and scum would do that. Your point is void.

[Miss Stranger]

So, Peregrine, let's see...

1) Your claim is a blank doc in a game with an odd cop and 1-shot miller doc. By itself I find this pretty hard to believe. (Elyse pretty much said it in 1010)
2) You claim didn't protect the cop and your reasoning wasn't WIFOM. You'd never do that as a town doc. A scum who knows there's a roleblocker might come up with this, however.
3) You claimed without even being at L-1. That's not much of a tell, but you claimed a goddamn doctor. Why would a doctor decide to out themselves this early for no good reason? Because...
4) Conveniently, you can explain your target dying and you staying alive as long as roleblocker is not lynched. This pretty much tells me you are the roleblocker.

I'm sorry but you are getting lynched today.

[Miss Stranger]

Will catch up when I can. Slandaar already explained why mass claim is good, listen to him. I scanned this case on Ztife, it's something that Grim has been pushing and I've been acknowledging for a while, so yes, Ztife is pretty scummy. Why aren't you voting him yet?

VOTE: Ztife

[Miss Stranger]

@Mod: I request to be replaced.

I'm sorry, guys, there's some personal problems going on and I really can't concentrate on Mafia any more, I'm probably going off-site for a couple weeks or more, because this is just serious and preoccupying my mind.

Good luck and sorry once again!