Mini 1469: Rage (Game Over)

[implosion]

Hello, people.

[implosion]

That's clearly not true, seeing as you were both allowed to join the game.

[implosion]

He said in this TOWN. Know something we don't????

I guess I'll sign my posts E or something. This is Elyse btw. Haven't played with any of you besides Nul, I think.

-E

"In this town" usually refers to the game as a whole, i.e. the town that is being invaded by the mafia. The mafia are inside of the town, and we're trying to eliminate them.

And hello pitoli. I remember you. As well as some other

bits and bobs

people playing.

[implosion]

He said in this TOWN. Know something we don't????

I guess I'll sign my posts E or something. This is Elyse btw. Haven't played with any of you besides Nul, I think.

-E

"In this town" usually refers to the game as a whole, i.e. the town that is being invaded by the mafia. The mafia are inside of the town, and we're trying to eliminate them.

Ty for explaining the game premise

-ac

In case it isn't clear, Elyse was implying that the usage of the phrase "in this town" was referring to people who are aligned with the town.
So... you're welcome?

[implosion]

Apparently "I'd like to tie a rope around your neck" is the new hello~

@Everyone not voting

: Why aren't you voting?

Because of rule 1 under voting:

You vote by either using bold tag(

Vote:GuyInFreezer

) or using vote tag (VOTE: GuyInFreezer).
This is how you do it.

Code: Select all

[b]Vote:GuyInFreezer[/b]
[vote]GuyInFreezer[/vote]

I have neither bolded the word "vote" nor used vote tags - ergo, I am not voting.

[implosion]

Bump

Why did you bump your own game?

Presumably, he wanted a top-of-the-page votecount.

[implosion]

Nope.

[implosion]

pitoli is, though.

VOTE: pitoli

[implosion]

Because she was sent a role PM that told her she won with the mafia.

Because of post 17. It's too early for activity to be an actual concern, yet never too early for it to be a concern for scum to want to look like they want more activity.

[implosion]

That is some pretty bad logic Naomi.

Frankly I like it, and am townreading naomi for it - it seems like an actual attempt to get something out of RVS.

[implosion]

I honestly think the entire "get us out of the RVS" thing is a load of BS. The transition out of RVS is usually smooth. It doesn't need to be forced, and it'll happen whether or not people expedite it.

[implosion]

I don't think you can take the "transition" issue for granted. In order to get out of RVS,

you have to make people start fearing death

(and not trolling 'bout votes). In order to make people fear, people need to force the issue. I've only played in one game on this site, and getting out of RVS was quick and feasible because people started to throw around more-than-RVS suspicions early-on.

That's a rather broad generalization - there are plenty of ways to get out of RVS, and even those that involve wagons don't always involve making people "fear death" - there are plenty of players, in some situations myself included, who will shrug off an early game wagon on them as an early game wagon. In that sense it's impossible to truly "end" the RVS. Really, the RVS is just the first ~day of the game. I don't think I've ever seen a game (and I've played plenty on MS) where random voting continued past the first few days to any significant extent.

Well, it's more than that. He's jumping around votes with no reasoning at all. Either that or the (actually more likely) option is that he doesn't want RVS to end right now. So yeah, I'm definitely suspicious.

And Reecer earns 1.2 Arbitrary Scumpoints™. Real scum, generally (yes, it's a generalization, but one that I cannot think of a single game that breaks that I've played), do not care whatsoever whether or not the RVS ends. At worst, they'll try to squeeze some towncred out of the situation by trying to look like they're "helping the game along." Really, what scum motivation is there behind not wanting RVS to end right now? So that the town gets a few fewer hours of "real" day time? People are still talking and still giving off tells either way.

That being said, all early-game suspicions are inherently forced early on. Do I think I've nabbed sure-fire scum with my vote? Absolutely not. However he's made an opening post that I want a response to, and when he responds, I'll go from there.

Whoa whoa whoa. This one's a REALLY bad generalization. There are absolutely situations where it's possible to strongly scumread (or townread) someone based off of their first post or two. I

never

think I've nabbed sure-fire scum unless I am an information power role who has explicitly received a result that could be caused by nothing other than my target being scum.

Also itt, Naomi continues to be town. Other people, do that too, please.

[implosion]

Just because you are sympathetic to his excuses doesn't change the fact that they are excuses.

Why are excuses scummy if they need to be said?

I.e., if you were going to be V/LA Friday-Monday, wouldn't you want to tell the thread regardless of your alignment?

[implosion]

control+f query=RVS

results:2 million fucktons

shits given: zero

Not completely sure who you are but I like your style.

Because I usually do only one or two long posts (like this) a day I state my reads in every post using Scummometer. It's similar to implosions "arbitary Scumpoints™" (#72) and my way of indicating FoS.

Oh, that's not actually a system, that was just a small joke

[implosion]

Also, the clash between Nul and CD just looks like a clash of playstyles. I don't think it says a lot about either's alignment.

I also now have some degree of townread on Z7 and NoEffenClue.

[implosion]

VOTE: implosion hiiiiiiiiiii

VOTE: implosion Hello you.

HI IMPLOSION

oh and hi implosion nice to see you again

:S. Hello? also top-of-page-jack?

[implosion]

Damn you, GIF.

<3

[implosion]

I think (also I think what Cheery is getting at?) is that it's Nul's obligation to provide reasoning

if he wants others to also vote Cheery

.

Although I like the way that the reasoning in 111 is phrased, once again, it's a playstyle clash. One natural reaction is to ask why, and I can understand why Nul is acting like that is the

only

natural reaction, but it isn't. One player might naturally ask why, another might naturally not care, another might naturally attack their attacker.

At this point, from town to scum, Naomi -> Z7 & NEC -> Nul -> Everyone else. The ordering of those townreads is also fairly loose. I don't have any scumreads at this point that are strong enough to be listed in a chain like this (I don't yet have enough from pitoli to justify a bona fide scumread on him, and the Reecer thing was minor).

and @NEC: cool.

[implosion]

The townread on Nul is weak because his line of reasoning in 111 looks genuine but could be faked, and I think it's to a good degree more likely genuine (but very well could be faked).

[implosion]

Actually. New angle.

That is some pretty bad logic Naomi.

Well, yes and no? Wagons are what get us out of the RVS 9 times out of 10, and Naomi effectively started a wagon. Not a big wagon nor a very effective one but a wagon nonetheless.
-ac

Discusses what Naomi did without committing to either a scumread or a townread on Naomi. This post looks like it wants to be a townread on Naomi, but it isn't explicitly said. It's waffly in a way that pings my gut.

Clearly both you and Naomi interpret his post differently from I do, so I can't really help at that. I'm more interested in hearing what he has to say and going from there.

I guess we'll hop on the wagon too. I really don't like the above quote. It reads to me as, "Stop pressuring me! Let me grill Z7 and get towncred!"


UNVOTE:
VOTE: hapahauli

-E

I dislike this vote. First off, "I guess we'll hop on the wagon too." The phrasing of that sentence feels scummy for two reasons: first, the fact that it's prefaced with "I guess" feels noncommittal, similarly to the above, but more explicitly. Second, the fact that the vote is described as a "hop on the wagon." There is no wagon at this point - there's only a single vote. Now, Team Rocket may have been referring to the wagon of "people who interpret Z7's post differently." I don't think so, however, considering the vote. The fact that it was described as a hop on a wagon when it really wasn't makes me feel like TR just wants to be seen as being the player who will hop onto a wagon to try to get momentum moving. I.E., it seems concerned with appearances. I also don't like the interpretation of the quote, as interpreting it as asking people to stop pressuring him ignores the fact that it's a perfectly valid response to what Naomi and I were saying. In fact, this sentence says nothing about people pressuring haphauli - all it's talking about is how people interpret Z7's posting.

Nul, you're being ridiculous. It's your job to provide reasons for your reads, not Cheery Dog's. It's laughable how you're painting Cheery as scummy for that.

Also, I voted on what? Page 4? Why is everyone like ZOMG sheep? I added a little tidbit of why I thought halapalui(?) was scummy and used the other reasons. There's not a lot to use this early into the game.

-E

Laughable? Okay. Is it scummy? Laughable feels like a buzzword that doesn't actually get at the heart of the matter.

Furthermore, I (skimmingly, so correct me if I'm wrong) re-read, and only one person (Z7) called TR's vote a sheep. So no, everyone was decicively NOT like "ZOMG sheep." That part of the post feels like an overreaction to perceived pressure.

Unvote

VOTE: Team Rocket

Also just remembered that poked a little strawman at hapahauli, and he gave a proper response in the second part of post 74, which is nice. Doesn't really mean anything either way though~~~

[implosion]

If CD were town, one would assume Nul's reasonless suspicion of him would either be totally ignored (what I would do) or a request for reasons. CD did neither and that is suspicious; moreover he's been overly defensive of his rxn.
That said I don't have a town read on Nul either as this could very easily be a bus, or even an attempted framing (CD's play can be unorthodox) but this head does have a scumread on CD now regardless.

-ac

So you admit CD's play can be unorthodox, yet suspect him explicitly for unorthodox play?

[implosion]

Sorry about triple posting but...

The townread on Nul is weak because his line of reasoning in 111 looks genuine but could be faked, and I think it's to a good degree more likely genuine (but very well could be faked).

So you think our use of the phrase I guess is waffley/non-commital, but you post this? Pot meet Kettle.
-ac

Yes. The difference is that I'm making my stance overtly clear in my post. I'm making it very clear that I have a weak townread on Nul, and am justifying both why I have a townread on him and why that townread is weak. When you use the phrase "i guess," you aren't making it clear whether you strongly think the person in question is scum, or if you think they might be scum but really aren't sure, or if you're wagoning for the sake of wagoning. So I guess noncommittal isn't really the right word there - lack of clarity is a better descriptor.

[implosion]

I'll respond to other stuff later, but I'd just like to point out another pet peeve/theory rant of mine that I feel like I wind up pointing out/ranting about in almost every game I'm in these days, although every time slightly differently ~_~

It's really, really stupid as town to start looking for associative tells at this stage (this is directed at Team Rocket for the "we agree they might be bussing" thing). The primary reason for that is... well, first let's assume there are 3 scum in the game. From your point of view, if you are town, that's 12 other people to read, with a 3/12 = 1/4 shot at hitting scum. As for associations, there are 12 choose 2 = 66 possible different pairs of people that aren't you, and only 3 pairs (scum A + scum B, scum A + scum C, scum B + scum C) that are correct. I.E., if you accuse two players of bussing, your brute odds of being right are 3/66 = 1/22. Essentially, what this means is that, in

very vague

terms, you should be about 5.5 times more "confident" in scumtells that you see between people you think are bussing than you would be in scumtells on an individual level before you declare the people in question to be probably bussing. Even if it's the only scenario that the two hydra's heads agree is likely... well, see my next paragraph. Plus, you would still need to have

extremely

strong justifications for calling it a bus, or as Carl Sagan said, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof."

Furthermore, there is no "inherent" way to distinguish between a T -> T interaction and a T -> S interaction, because a townie will act based on what they THINK of the other person's alignment, not based on what the other person's alignment actually is. So hunting for interactions by characterizing the interaction as TvT or TvS as opposed to characterizing the individuals involved as town or as scum is also very silly. I mean, you could theoretically try to characterize a person's behavior as scum talking to a townie, but at that point, you're saying much more about that individual than you are about the person you're saying is town, so you're basically reading them on an individual level.

If you want to say "I think this interaction is scum V scum" that's all well and good. However, your actual actions (by which I mean votes) should NOT be motivated by thinking that X is a bus

on day one before anyone has flipped

. Associative tells are awesome if you know that one of the people involved is scum.

[implosion]

Today is a lazy day but i'm doin' some reading.

Naomi, you have to put your vote on Nul outside of the spoiler if you want it to be seen, fyi.

[implosion]

Reecer's post 162 pings my gut as scummy in various places. Specifically, many of the questions he asks feel like questioning for the sake of questioning as opposed to questioning for the sake of eliciting meaningful answers. Additionally, the final paragraph's reads feel forced; although he admits that the reads aren't fully formed, the reasoning still feels phoned in, in a way. I just don't think that it or the way he gave it feels genuine, in essence.

So there~

I also feel like Nul is on the receiving end of a lot more pressure than he deserves.

[implosion]

it wasn't just a joke, it was also a clarification.

[implosion]

um.

*looks at post 190*
*looks at post 192*

:S

[implosion]

Oh implosion... New fancy avatar - old questionable play.

Iirc, the only game we've played together was one where i hammered scum over town on day one (albeit, i weakly townread them, but i more strongly townread the person who i didn't hammer), tunneled a different scum for the entirety of the day, and died night one. So uh, :S.

Probably the worst strawman attack I've seen in months. A V/LA post is not even remotely similar to a post where someone says "hey guys, I'm going to give you a tasty excuse to active lurk without repercussions, k?" That kind of excuse needs to come up organically if someone says "hey - why isn't Z7 responding to my questions?" and not be a preemptive apology. For this reason, I don't like "apology" posts either and probably would have pressed Z7 for some better info myself to "help him" ease into his D1 play. To that end...

This is an ironic post, because you call my post a strawman attack when it isn't an attack at all, which is itself a strawman... my post was a question, and ergo very clearly not an attack.

Additionally, my post isn't a strawman because of the phrase "i.e.," which means that i am giving an example that is different from the actual situation being discussed. The goal of my post was not to accurately reiterate and assess the situation. It was to elicit an answer to the question that I asked.

This right here I am quoting for truth. "What do you want me to do about that?" is very different from "why do you think that?" If you aren't searching for alignments, it's probably because you already know them [see points on Team Rocket and Naomi above].

What about the point that I brought up earlier about differing personalities inherently playing differently in this respect?

[implosion]

My response to much of 218 is "I disagree, but fair enough." This sentence however:

This right here I am quoting for truth. "What do you want me to do about that?" is very different from "why do you think that?" If you aren't searching for alignments, it's probably because you already know them [see points on Team Rocket and Naomi above].

I have wholehearted agreement with. I by no means have a townread on CD, by the way. I don't have a read on him either way right now. I also agree that Nul played fine in the exchange (which I believe i've already said).

[implosion]

These were my preliminary reads, and based on that, I'm willing to lynch the lurking scum first.

VOTE: bestwillcui

@MOD:

I think the vote table is very cluttered and hard to read. Heavy colouring and L-7 empties isn't necessary IMO.

Just fyi, there's a lot of different schools of thought on what votecounts look best, but a lot of people (well, at least myself in the large game I modded and one other well known mod i can think of) use that kind of votecount because it makes things a lot easier to keep track of for the mod, and it's also fairly straightforward for the player.


ANYWAY. Re: Naomi vs Yates. I agree with post 236, and I don't think it actually impinges scumhunting attempts to defend the person in question. Smart scum will be able to come up with a response that's at least satisfactory on their own, and it's not like another person answering for them alleviates them from having to answer if the question is pushed. Besides, even if you're defending someone else, you're adding to the conversation, and i can see how it'd be interpreted as anti-town but it really isn't, seeing as it both adds insight into the alignment of the person being attacked and can be used to glean information about the defender's alignment.

[implosion]

>___>.

[implosion]

I've frankly been looking for an excuse to vote Reecer for a day or two. So, hey, counterwagon-to-the-Nul-wagon ho.

Unvote

VOTE: Reecer

[implosion]

Aside to Miss Stranger: you might like [hr] tags. For example:

Code: Select all

[hr]70[/hr]

produces this break:

---

and the number inside the tags varies the length of the line.

Anyway:

Without regards to the thread as a whole, I had first read CD's ISO as town and Nul's ISO as scum. I think Nul's obsession with "what do you want me to do about that" instead of "why" is a ridiculous thing to hang onto, and I really can't believe he's been sticking with an RVS-esque vote for the entire game and insists on it. Nul's horizon is extremely myopic, and his gameplay can be summarized with the following:

:\. How is his vote RVS-esque when he has gone to elaborate lengths to justify it, and, additionally, unvoted and revoted over the course of the game?

How does it being ridiculous equate to it being scummy?

What do you make of his comments on things other than CD, for example

all of his posts since post 173

?

[implosion]

There is no point in announcing townreads, you might as well be giving a list to mafia telling them who to kill.

Strongly disagree. I'm gonna take a page from petroleumjelly's playbook here:

1) Scum are smart enough to figure out what people are obvious town on their own; they don't need our help, and giving them our help won't help them significantly.
2) Not all scum take out the most obvious town people automatically. Some will base kills based on people they think are power roles, some will base kills based on those who suspect them, etc.
3) Outing townreads involves outing justifications for those townreads, which allows others to read the person giving the townreads.
4) Outing townreads allows the person townreading to defend the person they townread if they come under attack (rather poignant example)
5) Outing townreads allows other people to comment on them, criticize them, reaffirm them, etc. Just because a person has a townread, doesn't mean that townread is correct... just like you would want other people to comment on a scumread you have, you would want them to comment on a townread you have.
6) Just like when you fos someone, you can observe someone's reaction to being townread and judge it to better read them.
7) Often, just talking about townreads can stimulate other discussion effectively.

*sigh*. Unfortunately, can't get to 13 . Ah well.

[implosion]

fuck yeah, i was right, screw everyone else~~~

[implosion]

Team Rocket, Reecer, bestwillcui, Miss Stranger, Yates.

^ Nul wagon at time of confirmation. I think miss stranger is town (not strongly though). I don't think yates's vote was awful. best's vote was bad for hopefully-obvious reasons, but he needs to say more before I can make up my mind on him. Reecer's vote is meh, TR i'm not sure about at this point.

I'm gonna say it's decently likely one scum in TR/Reecer/bestwill. This is, however, highly subject to change.

[implosion]

Why've you been looking for this excuse? If you were as convinced as you seen, why couldn't you form a case around me yourself? Why did you just wait for Naomi to have this huge masterpost of Reasons Relating Reecer6 to Really Wrong Rapscallions, when you could've formed it yourself and copyrighted it, getting all the royalties?

Convinced? I'm a player who rarely has a large amount of conviction in his reads. I've thought you were moderately scummy based on the 1.5 scumpoints thing and one other thing that i'm too lazy to find right now, but never got around to actually putting something bigger together.

[implosion]

My vote on bestwillcui was not a policy lynch. A rule of play is to lynch unhelpful and lurking players, because (1) they are always null reads, (2) they don't help town and (3) they help scum. A null read who certainly helps scum more than town is a good lynch in my book.

It is up to bestwillcui to start being helpful.

On the same line, FoS pitoli.

You've just defined the very definition of policy lynching. No, you idiot. It's up to you to prove people are scum, not for people to prove they are not.

I disagree, although this is essentially a theory discussion...But, FMPOV & IMHO, the game of mafia operates more under the "guilty until proven innocent" presumption than the "innocent until proven guilty" presumption.

bfaiseof

no.

There are, by the definition of mafia as the clash of an informed minority and an informed majority, more town than mafia. Why presumption should be that a given person is guilty is beyond me.

Besides, I don't think the idea of presumption really works in a setting of mafia either way. I think the presumptive state in a game of mafia has to be whatever we assume in the absence of any posts, or in pregame - i.e., from my point of view, my presumption would be "i am town and everyone else has approximately a 1/4 chance of being scum." Then those probabilities change as the game goes on.

Aaaanyway. It is absolutely up to bestwillcui to start being helpful, but that doesn't mean we can scumread him until he becomes helpful. And Miss Stranger, you really did say that your vote wasn't a policy lynch and then go on to explain how it was, in fact, a policy lynch... you said it was a "rule of play" and that lurkers were "always" null reads. Rule and policy are the same thing; if it's a rule of play that you vote for lurkers, then it is a policy vote.

[implosion]

My opinion on best right now, and I think by far the "best" opinion to have on him, is an opinion of "well, i really don't know and i hope that he contributes so that i *can* know."

I have absolutely had games where I had long periods of time where I could post almost none because of a combination of being very busy and being really tired. Lurking is not, on its own, a tell, even if he also has signs of paying attention to the game - I've had games (as town) where I have the time/energy to keep up with the game, but not the time/energy to contribute for good periods of time.

[implosion]

woooo hoooo stagnation~

the above about pitoli is certainly possible, but :shrug:.

[implosion]

@Mod

: above vote count should say L-2, i think. Also just to be sure you saw z7's replacement request, it was there.

Metal Sonic, if you can't find scum, you ought to go out and find them yourself. For instance, ask meaningful questions, vote to observe reactions, etc, etc.

Glad to have

fresh meat

people. popc, who is at the top of your scumlist beyond reecer?

Oops. Also, Z's replacement is noted in OP, just forgot to post here.

[implosion]

Answer: because i am a lazy player

Gross.

VOTE: Metal Sonic

Do you think metal sonic is scum?

[implosion]

I admit I haven't read anything particularly recent by her, but I remember her town-game being considerably less passive. Like the sort of player that gets reads from back-and-forth discussions with people, rather than what she's been doing here. Also Ineffective hasn't done anything stupid/crazy yet, although I also need some new meta on him. Still their slot is one to look at.

This is potentially true, actually.

Why is everyone so against lynching lurkers?

I'm not against lynching lurkers per se - i'm against lynching lurkers who I don't think have said enough scummy things to warrant a lynch, or who are going to be replaced.

In short, I want to lynch scum, and I don't see lurkers as more likely to be scum just for being lurkers.

[implosion]

implosion, have you played a game with either fferyllt or ineff?

One ongoing game with ffery. Apart from that, i don't think so.

Would lynch: Naomi, MS

Would not lynch: Implosion, Reecer, Miss Stranger, Magua, Nul (obv)

Wouldn't lynch, but need better read: Yates, Effen, Cheery, Team Rocket, pecan

MS never explained his newb-read on the Finnish guy, did he?

Applications for third scum-buddy are still open. Team Rocket might be an option.

I initially thought MS was miss stranger and i was like "goddammit, your scumreads are awful."

Aaanyway. I can accept a scumread on metal sonic (i don't have one myself, at least yet, seeing as so far i think his play is just bad, not scummy), but naomi is one of my townreads if not my strongest townread.

The backpedaling point is eh, I guess I just disagree that it's backpedaling. I think it's just further explanation of what she'd already said. The reaction to being voted is fair enough, although I don't think the ellipses are scummy (I used to think they were, but eh.) I guess I can see why they would be in this situation, but it's not enough to sway me. The bigger point is of course this:

This actually gives a fair bit of insight on why I think she's scum. Scum has the disadvantage of knowing who is an isn't scum - a fact that is fairly difficult to mask. I wouldn't be surprised if Naomi was also defending her scumbuddy TR, but it is mostly scum that makes the mistake of thinking they can score town-cred by defending an attacked townie. Ignoring the fact that she messes up Z7 and Hapa (panic!), she tries to defend herself against the accusation of defending her scumbuddies, when it's rather the white-knighting that gives her away. Trying to shrug it off as her being overly defensive doesn't help. Since she knows the people she's defending are town, she doesn't understand Yates' evaluation that she is disarming scumhunting attempts by answering in someone's stead.

I'm not quite sure what you're going for here, and I guess I just disagree with the point in general. As far as I can tell your point is that her defense betrays that she knows peoples' alignments, but that's just simply not true about defense in general, and I don't think this case is any different. I think there are just simply different opinions on when it is or isn't okay to defend someone, and naomi is stating hers. Could you clarify the point about white-knighting?

As for the meta, the smilies never subsided in the scumgame; she just happened to use some that don't show up as bbcode smilies (like >_<). Either way, in my experience, general tone depends a lot more on real life than on alignment, and none of those games were concurrent (the scumgame came after the towngames). Also i was in the first towngame, and honestly i haven't noticed anything remarkably different from what i remember of it. Besides, existence of posting gifs or videos is, i think, a case of correlation not implying causation. I don't think it's necessarily caused by alignment, in essence.

I'll say you've managed to weaken my townread on her somewhat, but meeh.

[implosion]

Fair. So what do you think about her explanation that she mostly wants to back up ineff in this game?

I think it's near-certainly true and bears precisely zero meaning with regards to the hydra's alignment, given that it sounds like it was something that was mediated before they received their role.

My natural reaction to the bolded part of z7's post is one of largely "meh." Honestly, if I saw hap's post and thought it was a bad representation of z7's, i would absolutely jump on it before z7 could respond. Furthermore, i can understand naomi interpreting post 59 like that. I think her not understanding what people were saying when they told her not to "torpedo scumhunting attempts" might be a product of English not being her first language (which, iirc, it isn't). In other words, i think you're misunderstanding her, when she says that she literally does not know what other people are saying, as her saying that she knows what they're saying but doesn't understand it. Besides, i think 236 was perfectly well-thought-out and a perfectly good defense.

Also those two weeks are two rather big weeks of the year (late December) and a lot can change in 2 weeks. :shrug:. Either way, yeah, i get that the meta is a minor point~

[implosion]

Honestly, if I saw hap's post and thought it was a bad representation of z7's, i would absolutely jump on it before z7 could respond.

But was it? I would argue that given the one post Z7 had made, there's no way you could have categorically excluded hap's question as silly/bad/misrepping/frivolous.

Does this mean you're scum again, Yates? <3

I don't think it was, but i can understand it being interpreted that way.

[implosion]

It doesn't take a significant stretch in my head to see her as having interpreted it that way, so occam's razor isn't an issue in my head when there are other things from her that i see as town - for instance, her rvs unvote on me and 236.

[implosion]

this.

[implosion]

Yes.

[implosion]

so what you're saying is that a hydra of magua and regfan has replaced into a slot that I have a townread on.

Cool, I don't have to do anything for the rest of the day/game

[implosion]

You misread me once, slightly over two years ago.

[implosion]

Anywho, my reads align fairly well with regfan's, which is a good sign.

I feel like cheery dog might be another good place to look for scum, largely because I can't remember anything that he's done or said other than the argument with nul.

[implosion]

@Reecer

Why are you grilling MS while seemingly ignoring everyone else on your wagon? Do you suspect anything scum-sided about the push to see you lynched? Also, why aren't you voting MS?

I haven't seen too many people talking about Metal Sonic, along with the fact that he really hasn't done anything so far and that his no-capitalization text really aggravates me. I don't think Naomi is mafia, and while Nul is inno, I'm sure there's at least 1 scum out of the remaining 3 on my bandwagon. I'm not voting him because I'm not entirely convinced he's scummy, he just doesn't have enough content to tell. But, thinking about it, that lack of content makes him much more scummy in my eyes.

So then you are voting pieceofpecanpie because you are entirely convinced he's scummy, then? Or, rather, do you still have a scumread on the slot based on its predecessor?

[implosion]

This. The slight Cheery scumread is a bit too easy.

What do you mean by too easy? are you calling the read itself into question (i.e., saying that you don't think cheery is scummy), or are you calling Regfan into question (i.e., saying that he is scummy for giving a slight scumread on Cheery) or are you just saying something along the lines of "i agree, but it just 'feels' too easy," or something else?

[implosion]

Hmmm, I'm beginning to read Cheery as scum this game. His tone is the right sort of passive for scum-Cheery.

I find the Naomi scum case weak and distracting.

However, the Reecer wagon is beginning to stink. I think with Metal Sonic idly hopping on the wagon feels forced, most likely with some scum clinging on. I like the vote on Rocket.

I have a couple of other problems with this that haven't been brought up yet. Primarily, the way it's phrased: "beginning to stink." I feel like that's an unnatural way to characterize a bandwagon that, up until now, ppp's opinion on seemed to be along the lines of "eh, it's okay, but it's not great and we can find something better." I also don't like the fact that he both denounces the leading wagon and supports a different vote, yet doesn't actually make that vote.

Unvote

VOTE: Team Rocket

It isn't sheeping because i made a case a very long time ago~

Anyway, Eff has essentially morphed my opinion on Reecer into one of "meh, idk." The fact that there was a towngame where he played like this is probably the biggest thing doing that, largely because I think a lot of the scummy vibe I get from him is from his general play. Frankly as time goes on my gut is saying Metal Sonic is town, but I should probably meta him, but too lazy to at the moment.

[implosion]

Having some real life problems, I will try to catch up with this thread soon.

[implosion]

I feel like more has been accomplished today than on a typical day one. I.E., my reads in this game are stronger than what they typically are by this point in the game. At least my townreads. I'm largely willing to lynch any of TR, ppp, Reecer or Cheery Dog.

Fake hydra interaction? Really? This is our first game as a hydra, and as much as I HATE discrediting myself, I think you are giving us too much credit to fake discord amongst us. And we explained why Nul/Cheery could've been scum/scum. We were wrong again but that doesn't make us scum.

This line gave me some pause when I read it at first, and I then proceeded to bury that feeling under mounds of idle procrastination. But still, it feels genuine to me, which mitigates TR-scum to a good extent.

So, I guess i lied above? I'll lynch ppp, reecer, or CD.

I kind of don't want to join the ppp wagon because it makes me feel lazy to just vote whoever effulgence is voting, but it actually is the best place for my vote right now given that i think TR may have towntold. Well, I guess it's him or reecer. But him for now.

Unvote

VOTE: pieceofpecanpie

[implosion]

The solution is for said people to vote pieceofpecanpie or reecer.

[implosion]

I really wish that more could be said, but yeah

I'm sorry to GiF for having to deal with so many replacements.

[implosion]

Kalimar, I think she meant "maybe exactly one, maybe not."

[implosion]

I'm not inclined to reverse my read on Naomi. I don't think she'd have said the vt line as scum, regardless of popp's alignment. I just don't see her as the kind of player who'd fake that as scum.

[implosion]

I don't really have a post that pops to mind as a scummiest post of the game. Sorry. Frankly, this day is dragging on and I just want a flip. I cannot see my townread on Naomi changing from pretty much anything. I don't know if my popp read is significantly subject to change, but bah, I'm losing motivation to read through the wallposts in this game.

[implosion]

Incidentally, Effulgence (both heads), I really, really don't buy that Naomi + ppp makes sense. I just can't imagine Naomi justifying it mentally as a soft distance from ppp; the only way the vt counterclaim makes any sense in my head whatsoever is if naomi is a vt. I just can't imagine naomi, as scum even with ppp, going "out of her way" in a sense to counterclaim ppp.

Essentially, if she's scum, it has to be faked (obviously). If it's faked, she has to have actively had the thought "hm, i think it's a good idea to counterclaim ppp's VT claim with a VT fakeclaim" and I just cannot see that thought process occurring under any circumstances.

[implosion]

. I'm lurking the thread, there's just nothing of interest happening. I still want a popp lynch. I don't want a TR lynch. If you want me on board an alternative, propose another one.

Also:

town are more interested in scumhunting, not posting walls to defend themselves.

This isn't really true - I've had games as town where I've been largely concerned with defending myself, possibly even more than scumhunting. No particular games come to mind, but I know there have been times when I've boredly perused threads, seen my name, and sprang into action (as town).

[implosion]

hm. i just realized the irony in the above post. hm.

[implosion]

I looked at it a little and no, it didn't seem extremely genuine.

Looking at it more closely: no particular parts of it seem super genuine to me, and at least one part seems slightly ungenuine:

I wish I'd have been alive for tomorrow, as I felt I could've become much more useful once the first flip came.

The tone of the post abruptly changes after that line from apologetic to cautionary, which also feels off.

and meh at TR. I'm the kind of person, which i'm sure you know by now, who will see one thing that he thinks is really townie and be unable to see anything else from that person, and I find it difficult for that line from TR to have been faked.

[implosion]

popp: no, none of your posts have read especially townie; posting a large volume of posts does not mean that those posts, or really any of those posts, necessarily have to have something hugely genuine within them. Additionally, the towntell I saw from TR was specifically related to them being a hydra; obviously you don't have that luxury if you are town, but saying that "you saw TR towntell so you should have seen me towntell" is just silly.

[implosion]

Can someone please just hammer. Hammering 12 hours before the deadline is in no way "hasty." We do not need to squeeze every little minute out of the day.

[implosion]

I skipped the post on Naomi in its entirety since I already think she's town, but I very much like surviva's entrance; the way that he uses his assumption that he is town feels genuine. By which i mean, the parts of his posts where he discusses his own wagon along with/in comparison with the wagons on nul and popp feels genuine and I think congruous with what I gather his playstyle is.

I'm going to re-look at TR and see how much effort it takes me to convince myself that that one towntell was faked.

One thing, though: surviva, why not vote TR?

[implosion]

Also I've either lost track of due to replacements or forgotten my reads on (because night was long) various slots overnight. This should be remedied in the near future.

[implosion]

Alright. On looking at it (the thing that I've been thinking of as a strong towntell from TR) again, I think it might be explainable as scum caught for the wrong reasons; i.e., I think it's possible that Elyse is scum but believes that that particular interaction was a product of her and ac genuinely reading Nul and CD; in other words, that line being genuine does not make their slot town, necessarily, although I still think that line is very genuine.

Also, given that GM is town and eff's last words were that magua was convinced at least two of {ppp, gm, tr} were scum, I think effulgence would likely be alive if tr were town, at least for today, given that scum would probably expect them to push a mislynch (this assumes that the mafia killed effulgence). I can frankly see GM as a vig kill or an SK kill, by the way.

I have a habit, as I believe I mentioned earlier, of taking things that I think are towntells too far (I have this habit because it also often does find me more good townreads, which helps to PoE the rest of the game); I think this is likely the case for TR, since I think the game will wind up making more sense if they're scum.

VOTE: Team Rocket

[implosion]

Kalimar: the prospect of acquiring a better read on morph the cat frightens me. I'm presently inclined to sit on my laurel of having them as a weak townread. This is largely because they're one of the slots I've forgotten about.

At this point, I have as large of a townread on Naomi as I did yesterday, and I think serra is town. Yates also survived as a weak townread in my head from yesterday, and surviva is also a townread (although also a weak townread, seeing as he's only just gotten here and he hasn't done anything hugely town yet). I'd say naomi >>>> serra > surviva > morph ≈ yates would be my scale of townreads as of now. I as of now lack an opinion on the Shamrock slot, seeing as I didn't have a strong enough townread on metal sonic for it to carry over significantly to a replacement, and in my mind cheery is categorized as "meh, he's probably scum and i'm sure we'll deal with him at some point, but by god nothing he says can ever be used to determine alignment."

[implosion]

In other words, CD is a PoE "probably scum" read.

[implosion]

In the games that immediately come to mind when i think of "games where i stronly townread people," my strong townreads were typically accurate. Within this game Naomi is the only one that I would classify as a strong townread.

(happy scumday, by the way!)

[implosion]

@Cheery Dog

: Why refute surviva's naomi-town case when you agree that naomi is town? Also, do you really think kalimar not dying is meaningful given... y'know, effulgence, who A, literally everyone thought was town; B, was (probably) giving accurate reads and was (certainly) being very active; C, and most importantly, could have been a power role that could actually do something? In other words, why would scum kill Kalimar at all when they can just save him for later and try to kill PRs that can actually do stuff now?

@Team Rocket

: Do you

seriously

believe that a townie being lynched is

beneficial

to the town? I find that hard to believe, even as an issue of playstyle; I mean,

mislynches are literally the only way for the town to lose.

If the town did not mislynch, it'd always win.

Additionally, you say that a dead townie's perspective becomes more important. In response to that, I have another question: how frequently do you re-read what lynched townies had to say and significantly change your reads based on what their opinions were?

Something else that really rubbed me the wrong way was kind of the excused absence once Effulgence showed up. It's not that the alibi isn't believable, I just don't like people scooping up a boatload of town credit (to the point that almost everyone had him as a top town read) and then stealing off into obscurity no questions asked.

It more fits into the narrative, like I said, of me typically losing steam over the course of day one. Regfan's reads are typically some of the most accurate of anyone on this site, and since they largely agreed with mine I really had no reason to try to revise mine.

[implosion]

I still say naomi still would have been town even if ppp had flipped scum. [/rant]

serra: I don't think speculating on eff's killer(s)' motivations too deeply is going to be very fruitful (note: yes i'm being a bit hypocritical here). They were being active and showed that they were willing to change their reads as new information appeared; that alone is enough to scare scum into a kill, regardless of whether or not their reads were accurate.

I, however, do think that their reads were (at least decently) accurate because of who they are~

[implosion]

ac, every day, we're either going to lynch scum or we're going to mislynch. Assuming we don't no-lynch, one of those two events must happen and they're mutually exclusive. I (and, i hope, most players) would argue that lynching scum is (barring fringe cases like a vengeful townie shooting an important scum pr or something) categorically better than mislynching. It's as simple as that.

By the way, my paranoia of the day is that serra is scum; I doubt this, but it exists as a possibility. I feel like the next two "obvious" people to lynch are TR and CD, which is irritating since we could theoretically only have one more mislynch...

[implosion]

yes
a mislynch is better than no lynch at all
the problem is,

within the game, the choice isn't between a mislynch and no lynch at all.

*sigh*
essentially your argument is an argument that the game becomes easier as more information becomes available, and mislynches give less information than lynches on mafia.
Saying that mislynches are "necessary" belies the point that,

very literally

, the entire goal of the town is to have as few mislynches as possible so as to eventually lynch all mafia members.
Saying that mislynches aren't always bad ignores that, fypov, instead of you, a townie, someone else, who could be scum, could be being lynched. And that

even if

they are town, the town still gets these supposed benefits of a mislynch.

[implosion]

because you SHOULD mind. I want you, if you are town, to be fighting your lynch. If none of my other arguments are getting through at the very least you should realize that fighting your lynch will help others read you right if you are actually town.

[implosion]

It's also another way to read you.

You-town who legitimately has this opinion should read my arguments and at the very least think "hey, maybe i should try to fight it off."

You-scum who has given up has no reason to.

[implosion]

Shamrock: what is your current read and justification for said read on Cheery Dog?

[implosion]

939 and 940 are weird, and i feel like i should be able to get something useful out of them, but i keep staring at them to little avail.

This game feels like it's stalling hilariously and I'm too lazy to give it a kickstart of energy. Someone else should do that.

[implosion]

This whole, "Let's only post to complain about how no one's posting or make excuses for how I'm not posting" thing isn't getting us anywhere. Let's use the power of our votes!

See, the problem is that I sympathize with him.

CD, it's rather strange (read: to some extent scummy) that you asked me "why" in response to a statement that contained the answer to the question of "why."

[implosion]

CD, it's rather strange (read: to some extent scummy) that you asked me "why" in response to a statement that contained the answer to the question of "why."

Let's go deeper then, because posting that you're lazy means you're not actually lazy compared to the people that aren't actually posting - who you then want to kick start the discussion.
Why it's your public laziness unable to start something that someone not even posting would be able to do?

nah. I don't expect the to. I expect the other people who are posting to. "Less lazy than X" does not equate to "not lazy."

[implosion]

There's also a certain degree of apathy which, while I agree it kills towns, is difficult to fight.

[implosion]

I'm going to need you to explain this like I'm a five-year-old with a learning disability.

Everyone seems to think scum kill people suspicious of them. The reality is that scum just kill either because they are too Town or to create WIFOM. Neither of those two were "holy shit Town" reads for everyone. So whichever one was killed by scum was killed for wifom.

TR *could be* 3rd party [since an SK might ACTUALLY be inclined to kill someone with a strong scum read on them], I suppose, but isn't scum.

Uh... yes, effulgence was kind of townread by pretty much everyone. I can't think of anyone who scumread them (at least off the top of my head) and I can think of a lot of people that townread them. Are you really saying he wasn't near-universally thought of as town? Who else would scum have killed if they wanted to go for a "holy shit town" read?

Also, there is no one "way it is" with how scum kill. Some scum will kill those who suspect them. Some will kill those who are too town. Some will kill based on who they think are power roles. You can't generalize like that.

The entire reasoning of "eff suspected TR, therefore TR is town" in and of itself is also really, really horrid. It completely ignores that there could be myriad other reasons that we don't know for the kill on effulgence. It seems like it's making more assumptions than feels natural.

Hrm.

[implosion]

Additionally, there's an element of congitive dissonance there. You simultaneously expected Shamrock to figure out on his own why those comments from the dead made TR town, while admitting that "Everyone seems to think scum kill people suspicious of them." You can't simultaneously think that common knowledge would dictate one thing and expect Shamrock to disagree with that.

[implosion]

Unvote

VOTE: Yates

[implosion]

*twiddles thumbs*

[implosion]

yeah, i'm not reading those walls. If you want to give me a tl;dr then that'd be cool, or i can just not know what was said, but yeah.

[implosion]

yeah, i'm not reading those walls. If you want to give me a tl;dr then that'd be cool, or i can just not know what was said, but yeah.

...comon at least read it...

No.

When a single page manages to have 6 or 7 walls, they are no longer worth reading, especially since a significant portion of it is just back-and-forth. I have neither the attention span nor the patience to get anything useful out of them. I could read them, but I would be wasting my time.

As long as Yates is going to play the obstructionist, my vote isn't leaving him unless it's for a damn good reason.

[implosion]

Unvote

VOTE: Team Rocket

[implosion]

Yeah, I think TR has a good chance of flipping scum even if only for setting up the false bussing scenario with Nul and CD. The somewhat static reads don't help, though on the Town front he does remind me of ToastyToast and could just be scummy Town... but he's a pretty easy mislynch in possible LyLo if he's Town and with a decent chance of a scum flip I think it's a good lynch.

If he does flip scum I wouldn't put TR bussing CD out of the question, just because of CD's weirdness in relation to the TR wagon today (implying the scum-read had persisted at the start of the day but not really wanting to lynch TR for unconvincing reasons).

If TR flips Town Yates is also probably Town because of that replacement request. With an easy scum win on the horizon if TR flips Town, Yates-scum could just lurk it out to a win. If TR flips scum, meh.

Vote: Team Rocket

I don't think Yates' replacement request has absolutely any bearing on his alignment. It sounds like it was just him doing the outside-of-the-game right thing.

Also, I know this is ironic after posting a couple of my longer posts, but if we could make an effort to make posts a bit more punchy and concise, that would be appreciated. Walls should be for special effect, not as a standard, imo.

QFT