Mini 1469: Rage (Game Over)

[serrapaladin]

sup y'all

VOTE: Yates
while I read.

[serrapaladin]

<3

you're town, right? Have you ever played with fferyllt or one of her hydras?

[serrapaladin]

I admit I haven't read anything particularly recent by her, but I remember her town-game being considerably less passive. Like the sort of player that gets reads from back-and-forth discussions with people, rather than what she's been doing here. Also Ineffective hasn't done anything stupid/crazy yet, although I also need some new meta on him. Still their slot is one to look at.

Why is everyone so against lynching lurkers?

[serrapaladin]

I admit I haven't read anything particularly recent by her, but I remember her town-game being considerably less passive. Like the sort of player that gets reads from back-and-forth discussions with people, rather than what she's been doing here. Also Ineffective hasn't done anything stupid/crazy yet, although I also need some new meta on him. Still their slot is one to look at.

Why is everyone so against lynching lurkers?

You are talking about us. Not to us.

Reminds me of our last game.

Hi <3

And why would I repeat last game if I were scum? I haven't fully read up, I just skimmed your and Yates' ISO and decided to bounce my observation off Yates. Do tell me where your tenacity has gone though? You haven't complained about people coasting once so far... It's also noted that instead of responding to my accusation of you being passive you go straight for the discredit.

[serrapaladin]

That's more like it. Maybe we can be friends after all

I've played one game with Cheery and read a few more, but that's quite a while ago as well. He was a mason then, and I don't remember him being much different - always sort of around and making more-or-less useful remarks, but never particularly ambitious in his moves. I don't like the idea of theory taking up a large part of the game (obviously), but it actually seems to be town more than scum that fall into the trap of correcting people. Unsolicited theorycrafting is often used by scum to hide behind, but I don't really see that being the case here. I'll get back to you once I'm fully happy with my reread.

Another thing I'll note is that although I sort of liked Naomi's entrance and her early walls moving us out of RVS, she seems to be resting on her laurels, so to speak. I'm not particularly a fan of her Reecer case.

[serrapaladin]

implosion, have you played a game with either fferyllt or ineff?

352ff make MS look really bad. Not excluding pecan/MS as buddies.

Seriously not seeing the wagon on Reecer.

[serrapaladin]

Why are you so scummy? Not an attack, just a question... [<- see what I did there?] I hate it when people say "not an attack, just a question" in regards to a post like that. Hate it.

<3

[serrapaladin]

Would lynch

: Naomi, MS

Would not lynch

: Implosion, Reecer, Miss Stranger, Magua, Nul (obv)

Wouldn't lynch, but need better read

: Yates, Effen, Cheery, Team Rocket, pecan

MS never explained his newb-read on the Finnish guy, did he?

Applications for third scum-buddy are still open. Team Rocket might be an option.

[serrapaladin]

Note to self: posting "QQ" in replacement thread will get you fast replacements.

Let me see whether I can whack together something resembling a case on Naomi. As much as this game could use getting rid of MS, her lynch is probably the more valuable one.

Incoming.

[serrapaladin]

So apparently Naomi is scum:

Leaving her large (largely misrepping) cases alone for now:

UNVOTE: implosion
I don't think his action shows him very scummy... I was expecting him to turn at me for placing a second vote ontop of him, but he went for some-person else. :s

Well in RVS I was looking to see if he would jump on the fact that he got 2 votes, by being the second voter it would been easy to though some weak suspicion out on me.

Yes, I suspose it wasn't the greatest logic, but it mad some thinking and was not random. I really struggle in RVS so like to do anything to end it, even if it means putting myself in the line of fire.

This is some serious back-pedalling. She tries to pass 44 off as having reaction tested implosion for protown reasons, but when that is questioned she backpedals and throws in a bit of AtE about her struggling with RVS.

@Team rocket. Can you expand on your own personal suspicions and how you feel his play has effected you enough to stack a second vote. Your statement when placing the vote didn't contain much of your veiws on the matter and was kinda short. I'd like you to expand on it.

Noted for future reference.

annnnnnndd

Now for an unsupported vote with no prior permission from my hydra partner

VOTE: naomi-tan

huh... strange vote.....

I'm gonna read stuff in the morning cause 4am while sleepy is not the best time to look over the team rocket stuff or nul stuff.

Not a great reaction to being voted. Ellipses convey hesitation and the whole thing seems forced. I get the sense that she didn't want to ignore it, but didn't know how not to appear suspicious.

As for Yates (And I know I spoke to him a second ago, but that was before I read the rest of the forum) Though he did comment a little too. There are certain things that urk me as ... not great.

@Naomi - part of the reason you are probably so bad at D1 play is because you are too busy getting involved in crap not addressed to you. Unless you are scum defending, you need to let ponies answer cases against them for themselves [unless it's something obvious, of course] and stop torpedoing scum hunting attempts. That's straight up anti-Town play.

Not to be overly defensive, but This here strikes me as wrong. For starters I have essentially defended 3 people at this point (Team rocket, CD, Hapa) which means It can't be scum defending scum mathematically it wouldn't add up. Secondly, If I withhold information on reads, and how an argument influences my reads on people; I'm withholding Information from town, that town could use to there advantage later (eg. If I get shot, or people go to lynch me) I'm fine to let other people answer there case's too, and im not stopping them, but I will speak up If I feel something is worth commenting on. Also, im not sure what you mean by torpedoing scum hunting attempts, but there is nothing stopping someone continuing on, and if there was a solid enough case I might not help the defender, So Far I defended Hapa, cause Z7 attempted to make his post something it wasn't. and I defended CD for nul attacking him for not asking reasons for a vote he declared as 'I think your scum' without any other reason (One post later, after cherries post) On team rocket. I looked though, but.. it was just too clumsy to be considered scum play to me, the vote train still stands for that though.
I'm overly defensive

This actually gives a fair bit of insight on why I think she's scum. Scum has the disadvantage of knowing who is an isn't scum - a fact that is fairly difficult to mask. I wouldn't be surprised if Naomi was also defending her scumbuddy TR, but it is mostly scum that makes the mistake of thinking they can score town-cred by defending an attacked townie. Ignoring the fact that she messes up Z7 and Hapa (panic!), she tries to defend herself against the accusation of defending her scumbuddies, when it's rather the white-knighting that gives her away. Trying to shrug it off as her being overly defensive doesn't help. Since she knows the people she's defending are town, she doesn't understand Yates' evaluation that she is disarming scumhunting attempts by answering in someone's stead.

If that didn't come together as I wanted it to, all it really takes is a bit of meta (note that she doesn't appear to have anything particularly recent on-site, but I do think my point holds):

Two most recent town games:

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

Basically, she is more relaxed and fun than here. She uses gifs, videos, and random flippant comments.

To compare, her latest scum game:

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

No videos, no gifs, just someone trying to focus on the game, a few early smileys that subside when she starts to come under scrutiny, and much the same type of tone as here.

VOTE: Naomi

[serrapaladin]

One ongoing game with ffery. Apart from that, i don't think so.

Fair. So what do you think about her explanation that she mostly wants to back up ineff in this game?

I'm not quite sure what you're going for here, and I guess I just disagree with the point in general. As far as I can tell your point is that her defense betrays that she knows peoples' alignments, but that's just simply not true about defense in general, and I don't think this case is any different. I think there are just simply different opinions on when it is or isn't okay to defend someone, and naomi is stating hers. Could you clarify the point about white-knighting?

I knew this'd be contentious, and I'm not quite sure whether I can lay it out much clearer, but let me try it for the specific case of Z7's "I'm not very good early on" post:

Ok we are still at random voting stage. I will first give you some bad news.

First I suck at forum mafia early game

. It's impossible to find patterns in interaction or voting (because there really isn't much to form them).
Secondly I live in Finland so I won't be posting as often as you do. While you play this game I'am sleeping and during day when I post there are no replies. Also I will be working long sift on weekend so I will be V/LA from Friday till Monday.

Then the good news. Well there really isn't any at this point.

If you're town, and this is Z7's first post, what would be your (first) reaction to the bold part?

Naomi's is this:

I honestly think the entire "get us out of the RVS" thing is a load of BS. The transition out of RVS is usually smooth. It doesn't need to be forced, and it'll happen whether or not people expedite it.

I don't think you can take the "transition" issue for granted. In order to get out of RVS, you have to make people start fearing death (and not trolling 'bout votes). In order to make people fear, people need to force the issue. I've only played in one game on this site, and getting out of RVS was quick and feasible because people started to throw around more-than-RVS suspicions early-on.

Ok we are still at random voting stage. I will first give you some bad news.
First I suck at forum mafia early game. It's impossible to find patterns in interaction or voting (because there really isn't much to form them).
Secondly I live in Finland so I won't be posting as often as you do. While you play this game I'am sleeping and during day when I post there are no replies. Also I will be working long sift on weekend so I will be V/LA from Friday till Monday.

Then the good news. Well there really isn't any at this point.

##Vote: Z7-852

Everything about this post screams "please don't take me seriously," and shows a mentality of wanting to "hide." Furthermore, this guy has been around this site since 2011 and has more-than-a-few games in his history. I'd expect something much better from a non-newbie player.

I don't like this one bit. the original post that he quoted has 2 points
The first is someone saying,

there not good at RVS; Which is understandable, when there is no information and no one knows how others are, it is extremely tricky to get any good leads.

Some players are worse than normal even clumsy in this stage, much like my clumsy thing earlier that kinda sorta moved things forward in a awkward transition (IMO)
the second is someone explaining there time zone issues, that is perfectly understandable. at the time of my post, its about midnight where he is and 11pm here. so it makes sense to say; I'm not in USA time zones, so there may be a large delay between answers cause of time zone differences.

and he translated this to, "I want to hide, and don't take me seriously" I would Really like to know how he came to that conclusion from what was said. To me it looks like a fairly clumsy push on something that is gray enough to warp.

I just don't understand the purpose of making a post saying "I suck in the early game". If you don't like the early-game, post later. It seems like he's checking in and giving himself an excuse not to be taken seriously early-on rather than anything else. The objective purpose of that post is to excuse his behavior, and that's potentially scummy.

That being said, all early-game suspicions are inherently forced early on. Do I think I've nabbed sure-fire scum with my vote? Absolutely not. However he's made an opening post that I want a response to, and when he responds, I'll go from there.

My goal right now is not necessarily to be 100% correct, but to pressure the right people and to generate as much information as possible to transition into a more "serious" phase of the game. In fact, I'm somewhat amazed how little sympathy you have for this mentality given your post here...

Yes, I suspose it wasn't the greatest logic, but it mad some thinking and was not random.

I really struggle in RVS so like to do anything to end it, even if it means putting myself in the line of fire.

What gives? You're attacking me for something you're proposing to be doing yourself.

Your 'Sympathy' bit is the entire point. By saying what you just said though; your suggesting that you struggle with early game, even though it was never stated before hand in order to project a unsympathetic light upon me, or more so, being hard on someone who is trying to end RVS. however, RVS (IMO) ended before you vote, so I took it as a real vote. Additionally, I was Sympathetic to the source post, as I have said things like that in the past and believe its still on my profile. which is why I was defensive over your attack and turned suspicion on you for transforming a post that everyone else had said nothing about and just accepted as a normal perfectly harmless comment into something worth a real vote.

VOTE: hapahauli

Given what he turned Z7's post into,

and the fact that his reaction to me questioning his post was to turn back upon me and try to say I'm unsympathetic to him as he was bad at early game, despite no earlier mentions of being bad early game. I'm going to place a vote here as I find his behavior suspicious enough to mount some pressure onto it.

@No clue

; Yes, it may of been better to wait for him to defend himself, but considering we just abruptly left RVS, I'm still happy to follow any lead with even the most remote of suspicions, such as a vote for the type of post Z7 had given

(Emphasis mine)

As town, whether or not Z7 is scum who is anticipating attacks on his early game should at least be an open question, and your natural reaction should be to let Z7 answer for himself, in the hope of him clarifying it or slipping up (even if you believe him to be town, which given the one post he had made by then is quite the stretch) - hapa's attack was not so frivolous. Instead Naomi, knowing Z7's alignment, didn't make this connection, but prematurely leapt to his defence (i.e. 'white-knighting'), not realising that this had defused what was in the eyes of a townie an opportunity to hunt scum (thus revealing her hidden knowledge of his alignment?). The fact that she doesn't realise WHY people are telling her not to defend people prematurely is more telling than the defence itself. Yates and ffer both tell her that white-knighting is bad, but she takes it as an accusation that she's defending her scumbuddies, again not realising that in their eyes she, in fact, hindered a potentially fruitful line of questioning.

As to the point about her meta: it was meant to be little more than an addendum to what was in my head a moderately convincing case. It was something I noticed while scrolling through her past games, but of course you make a valid point given the chronology. However, there are less than two weeks between the end of her last town game and the beginning of the following scum game, with what I find to be a noticeable change in tone. People certainly change over time, and I won't disagree with the point that your tone is a function of your mood, but I would at least put to you that with a gap of two weeks, your alignment is more likely to cause a change in your style or tone than your life circumstances. If I compare this game to her most recent ones as either alignment, I find significantly more similarities to her scum-game.

[serrapaladin]

Honestly, if I saw hap's post and thought it was a bad representation of z7's, i would absolutely jump on it before z7 could respond.

But was it? I would argue that given the one post Z7 had made, there's no way you could have categorically excluded hap's question as silly/bad/misrepping/frivolous.

Does this mean you're scum again, Yates? <3

[serrapaladin]

If you claim anything bulletproof or cop related, I will day-vig the shit out of you. Otherwise, we can be good

[serrapaladin]

I can too, but that involves me being particularly patronising. Occam's razor firmly points to her being biased scum.

[serrapaladin]

her rvs unvote on me

[serrapaladin]

VOTE: implosion Hello you.

UNVOTE: implosion
I don't think his action shows him very scummy... I was expecting him to turn at me for placing a second vote ontop of him, but he went for some-person else. :s

So these two posts actually give you a town read on her?

[serrapaladin]

Fair. So what do you think about her explanation that she mostly wants to back up ineff in this game?

I think it's near-certainly true and bears precisely zero meaning with regards to the hydra's alignment, given that it sounds like it was something that was mediated before they received their role.

You pay remarkably little attention to subtleties. While I haven't quite made up my mind about her, I certainly wouldn't put it past fferyllt to come up with that on the spot:

> I correctly identify her scummy coasting.
> Her first reaction is to push back.
> Doesn't work.
> She claims her inactivity is deliberate, to help coach Ineff, while feigning surprise at his inactivity.

Note that her first response wasn't to explain their circumstances, and that Ineff has basically been completely absent this game, which she claims not to have anticipated.

Naomi, if you actually felt strongly about Z7 being falsely accused by hap, wouldn't you remember their respective names?

[serrapaladin]

Naomi, could you give me a link to a town-game in which you make a similar defense?

pecan: I'd really rather not end up making a full town-case on reecer. 383 reads as a careless to the wagon against him. 385 is an alright case against MS, even if that case basically makes itself... I'm not quite sure what to think of his little bit of self-deprecation, but it does strike me as somewhat genuine.

[serrapaladin]

Yeah, I see him as moderately town.

I read the various lines of arguments against him, and most of them are just bad play painted as "scummy". If you have anything particular you'd like me to comment on, please tell me.

I do believe Naomi is a reasonable lynch target for today. We have a decent amount of time left, and there appears to be at least a little bit of support so far. I'll wait to see how people react to it, and push it as well as I can.

410 annoys me... not only is there a bunch of actually interesting stuff floating about, but I also specifically mentioned MS' lack of explanation of his newb-read on hapa.

Naomi is agreeing with too much of what I'm saying for my liking...Tomorrow I think I will actually do a point-by-point of various cases on Reecer.

[serrapaladin]

Are you high?

Hi Regfan, good to hear that slot will actually start participating.

Any comments on Naomi, Yates? What do you think about her agreeing with so many of my points?

[serrapaladin]

(For instance I defend my town-reads to death do they part as town and less-so as scum so the "White-knighting" argument is shite.)

Defending townreads is one thing, but I just don't think she could have had a townread on Z7 at that point.

[serrapaladin]

Ok we are still at random voting stage. I will first give you some bad news.
First I suck at forum mafia early game. It's impossible to find patterns in interaction or voting (because there really isn't much to form them).
Secondly I live in Finland so I won't be posting as often as you do. While you play this game I'am sleeping and during day when I post there are no replies. Also I will be working long sift on weekend so I will be V/LA from Friday till Monday.

Then the good news. Well there really isn't any at this point.

> I'm not good at early game.
> I won't be posting regularly.
> Don't hold it against me.

How is this not a standard sort of intro that can also be used by scum to anticipate attacks on their game? I, for one, play up my busy work schedule and frequent travelling much more as scum. I fail to see how anyone claims to have had a townread on Z7 by then...

I agree with regfan's reads on all counts except Naomi and possibly effen, who I haven't quite figured out yet.

[serrapaladin]

Serra, again I had a town-read on Z7 at that point so the "fail to see how anyone claims to have a townread on Z7 by then" is clearly wrong. The going to give you bad news that he sucks at early game scumhunting and uses voting and interaction patterns is really genuine as is the well there isn't any good news element. It's not an opening I've ever seen scum lead with. Also if you don't agree with my Naomi and potentially Effen read then you only agree on Implosion and Stranger?

I might dig out some examples of early scum self-deprecation later, but I'm at least a bit surprised by you on this point. My reads line up with yours in so far that Miss and implosion were the first reads that solidified for me as well, which means your thought process when catching up on this game was much like mine.

My effen read would also be fairly town, were it not for my lingering concern about her lack of effort in making reads happen. Of course she is in a hydra, so I suppose I can't hold her to the same standards as I would her main, but she has seemed content to observe play as it happens and give short bits of analysis, rather than the more active and interactive style of play I know she's capable of.

... Needs more scum reads. And a revisit on Naomi.

This. The slight Cheery scumread is a bit too easy.

For as long as I'm still awake, I'll go over the reasons presented by the people voting Reecer and, if I have time, Team Rocket, who are a bit of a loose cannon in my understanding of this game so far.

[serrapaladin]

Sure. I was still going to do some digging, but we can chat instead. What do you think of pecan and Team Rocket?

[serrapaladin]

What...

This argument is getting very interesting.
Wagon time!
VOTE: Team Rocket

This post pinged during my first read. There was also something mildly off about pecan's catch up. Pecan mentioned that while he'd be willing to lynch him, Reecer wasn't his top scumpick. He doesn't really go into who his better scumpicks are. I would think that if he had indeed solidified his reads well enough to classify Reecer as a secondary scumspect, it shouldn't have been very difficult to at least list who he found more scummy. Opinions?

[serrapaladin]

Eff's catch-up is firmly town, and Yates is firmly Yates, but I wanna say pecan is the most iffy of the replacements.

[serrapaladin]

I meant effulgence by eff... He'll be eff, you guys will be clue, you're fery and ineffective is ineff.

Anywho, eff's townreads are good, Yates' quote wall was good, but that's how he replaces in as either alignment. pecan was a bit lacklustre.

[serrapaladin]

How much do you agree with what ineff had said? I'm afraid I trust your reads over his, but you've been deferring to him a lot.

[serrapaladin]

Well I'll be looking forward to those reads of yours. And Team Rocket definitely deserves more attention. I don't really see much of a recovery by Naomi to be honest. Reecer hasn't played particularly well and has been somewhat off the ball, so it's not a particularly difficult case to make. The rest of her posts have been a bit coasty...

pedit: Well, I assume your game hasn't gotten any worse in the last few months, and I didn't think much of ineff in what I've seen from him. The one game I've played with him, his playstyle gave us a fairly easy win as scum.

[serrapaladin]

In our game ineff just picked out the two masons, but I'll be sure to a few more current ones. I'd still rather hear your own line of thought though. If ineff shows up, I'll gladly discuss his reads.

On another note, this game by cllue had fery looking much more like I've been talking about... :/ fery, what's your most recent completed scumgame?

[serrapaladin]

Bah it's late, Reecer and TR will have to wait for tomorrow. Night all!

[serrapaladin]

However, the Reecer wagon is beginning to stink.

Dislike this a lot. He's sensing the tide turning and wants to stay ahead of the curve (hurray for mixing metaphors).

yates if you're town and you mislynch me again i am going to

hate

be very upset with you and never play with you again

that thing in serra's was not cool

unless you're scum of course, then its null

Dislike this more, but mostly because that game of mine is still ongoing...

A quick sitewide search doesn't do much to support regfan's

interesting

theory.

[serrapaladin]

Regarding various points against Reecer:

Spoiler: Naomi's Wall for Reference

This is post 251, but I (serra) will remove the outermost quote for legibility

In post 251, Naomi wrote:
"Brace your self, going to imply scummy behavior again. Another wall coming up
So, I was doing a quick ISO of reecer after seeing Yates little dig at him and I think I'm starting to see a little pattern arising from it. every time someone appeared in a weakened position he arrives and leaves a little comment and if its seen as suspicious, he backs out on it.

Nul, we're clearly leaving RVS here. I've got my eye on you, jumping around the votes.

UNVOTE

What is the point of this statement? Are you suspicious of Nul or what?

Hell, how is jumping around votes early in the game remotely scummy?

Well, it's more than that. He's jumping around votes with no reasoning at all. Either that or the (actually more likely) option is that he doesn't want RVS to end right now. So yeah, I'm definitely suspicious.

So thats him going in the offence, though some early suspicions out. it was right after RVS though, so not the strongest evidence, but it kinda follows the pattern.

Well, it's more than that. He's jumping around votes with no reasoning at all. Either that or the (actually more likely) option is that he doesn't want RVS to end right now. So yeah, I'm definitely suspicious.

And Reecer earns 1.2 Arbitrary Scumpoints™. Real scum, generally (yes, it's a generalization, but one that I cannot think of a single game that breaks that I've played), do not care whatsoever whether or not the RVS ends. At worst, they'll try to squeeze some towncred out of the situation by trying to look like they're "helping the game along." Really, what scum motivation is there behind not wanting RVS to end right now? So that the town gets a few fewer hours of "real" day time? People are still talking and still giving off tells either way.

Guess I wasn't thinking. I've never looked through the thread knowing who is what after a game's over, which I'm assuming you have. And that's actually a good idea, I should probably do that after this game. I suppose that's actually a light towntell if anything.

By the way, what's the exchange rating of Scumpoints to USD? I hope I've found a way to get rich quick.

It was already ended by the time of your post, that was obvious and if it wasn't someone (I can't remember who) mentioned it.

So you're voting me because we disagree on when RVS ended then?

From what I can tell, they're voting you for voting someone because of the above fact, and also because you have some fairly flimsy reasoning for that it.

Here he backs off on his statement brushing it off as a 'wasn't thinking' moment, the joke part on the next line, may be him intentionally making his post seem lighter, so people take him less seriously, or could be normal him, not really a tell either way.
The second half of the statement is directed to me and Hapa where he takes my side, but doesn't reinforce it much with his own feelings just restating whats going on. could be just answering a question honestly.

What are you calling a light towntell here? It reads as if you're saying looking back postgame is a towntell.

I was talking about the not wanting RVS to end thing.

I dislike this vote. First off, "I guess we'll hop on the wagon too." The phrasing of that sentence feels scummy for two reasons: first, the fact that it's prefaced with "I guess" feels noncommittal, similarly to the above, but more explicitly.

My vote on hapahalui or whatever his name is isn't a vote that I plan on sticking to for the whole game. I used the phrase "I guess" because there wasn't really a better option at the time, he is/was slightly scummy, and it's always good to put a little extra pressure on people. Am I extremely confident in that vote? No, seeing as we are now voting for Nul.

Sooo.... noncommittal? If you're just going to for the most part agree with them, just say that.

I also don't like the interpretation of the quote, as interpreting it as asking people to stop pressuring him ignores the fact that it's a perfectly valid response to what Naomi and I were saying. In fact, this sentence says nothing about people pressuring haphauli - all it's talking about is how people interpret Z7's posting.

AC agrees with my interpretation. When he asked for Z7's opinion, it was simultaneously telling you and Naomi to stop giving your's.

The way I see it, it's also telling himself to back off, and then for everyone to resume once Z7 got some input in. How could he continue insinuating him after saying that? And Z7's *opinion*? More like fact, considering he was the one who wrote the post in the first place.

here we can see him do the same thing to Team rocket, right at the start of that train, (trying to give it momentium IMO) That bottom post could be him defending Z7, but... I don't see it being for the reason to protect an townie (IHO) as if he thought z7 was innocent why didn't he commit more with his comments?

While so far he had showed support for what I was doing, he turned on me for some reason one post after the one above.

Naomi, the most important thing that told me was that you use Ponify while playing mafia. Please explain. Sarcastic tongue-sticking-out face.

Because of that I read [Cheery Dog's] posts first. Maybe it is because i am biased, but your posts give me bad vibes. You're going in the nullscum pile.

I think hapahauli is a town. His posts scream newbie town and his reasoning just confirms that.

Naomi Tan is sort of townish i guess, especially the response to hapahauli. However, I will pay more attention to her, as this read can potentially flip due to the fickle nature of the read that I have on her. As in it can go scum or town, but for this moment she's leaning more town at the moment.

Reasons, reasons, reasons! Your observations are meaningless without them.

This post started by saying my wall of text was useless.

@TeamRocket: Chose CD cause I had a null read on him, and he was the most recent post when I was checking the thread.

Why not anyone you had a scumread on to attempt to nail them down more?

@Naomi: "What do you want me to do about that?" cannot be interpretted as "Why do you think I'm scum?"
Quite frankly his response to me calling him scum was one that showed a lack of interest.

I'll agree with you on the first front, but the second -- don't people usually show a lack of interest in this situation? Why did you continue whaling on him for so long when you could just stop at their first response?

How is withholding reasons for a vote, intended to fish reactions, "obviously wrong"? Just because CD replied doesn't mean he was showing interest to what I had to say. You also have to take into consideration people's attitude in their response e.g. if someone said "tldr" obviously it means they don't care.

I don't understand here, I thought you had no reasons, not just were withholding ones. It's a reaction test, after all. Yes, CD's reply is just as good as not replying at all. So you could've stopped there. I don't know what you were looking for after that, because it's much like saying "I think Mr. X is scum," having him reply to someone else that's not you, and then you quote his post and then asking why he didn't respond. With all caps and 10 exclamation marks for humor.

I had no reasons at the start other than my null read on CD. I don't think people here understand my first post where I called CD scum, was an attempt to fish for reactions (overly defensive, apologetic, overly curious, etc). I continued the argument for longer because I wasn't satisfied with his responses.

In what way was the response not satisfying? Final question: What were you looking for, Nul?


My observations? Fine, though I haven't developed them too well. Nul is leaning towards scum here, for having his reaction test go on and on for seemingly no reason. Naomi is more town, because she took all that time to read the isos of something she later found ultimately pointless. Haph's slightly scum-sided for what I still believe is bad reasoning against N7 (Stating things beyond your control that may stop you from playing for short periods of time is very important, and saying you struggle early game is entirely fine as long as you can show that and get more involved later), though I'll congratulate him for completing the full transition out of RVS.

And in his next post, I had somehow gone from being possible flip town/scum to town again. not sure how a useless post in his eyes improved things or for what motive he had ... but whatever. The more important thing to note, was his comments towards null, who was becoming a train of his own. having a second vote from me on him. where he picks up other peoples arguments and enforces them, essentially continuing the pressure they had started.

Very nice post Miss Stranger. I can't say I totally disagree with any of that.
I guess I didn't notice bestwill only had 3 posts in. I'd like to vote for him but I'll go in the "wait for a response" park.

For starters I have essentially defended 3 people at this point (Team rocket, CD, Hapa) which means It can't be scum defending scum mathematically it wouldn't add up.

Hey, how do you know the number of scum? Is there something you know about alignments you're not telling us, Naomi? Because I don't remember the numbers being revealed to us.

(one post left) Where after Yates puts a vote on me, he questions how I know the numbers. When as yates pointed out, everyone should be able to make an estimated judgement on numbers at this point.

I was about to vote bestwill just because you told me to vote someone else, but thinking about it, someone who's heavily lurking isn't nearly as suspicious as the guy who's been having a very scummy argument all the day. And he also avoided/didn't answer/didn't understand, however you'd like to say it, my question. Nul said that he wasn't satisfied with CD's answer, but what I was asking was why. What type of answer did he want? How did he think he would find that if he kept pressing?

So,
VOTE: Nul
Very open to persuasion or further facts. Or a bestwill response. Especially that.

Then he joins the growing bandwagon saying that nul didn't answer his questions. which I Looked up nulls next post after his questions, He gave a quick response, but didn't answer all the issues he brought up, which Reecer never spoke up on until his vote.

The final suspicious thing would be his activity, out of the 250 posts, he has posted in 11 of them, (the majority quoted here) It appears to me that this trend of touching on things, pushing people a little and lurking between posts in order for people to not notice, is pretty well done scum play or pretty poor town play. and Im gonna switch my vote over to him.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Reecer6"

---

So the gist of Naomi's case is that Reecer opportunously attacks people but concedes quickly once he starts taking flak for it. The early attack by Reecer on Nul may sort of fit that pattern, although it's wrong that Nul was in a particularly "weakened position", rather the vulnerability of Nul came later (with e.g. his argument with Cheery). The next post focuses on Naomi not liking how Reecer dismisses her posts, and finally she basically paraphrases why Reecer came after and voted Nul, while mentioning that not a lot of it is original. I really don't see much of a case here for Reecer being scum. Parts of his play have been weak, sure, but suspecting people of scumslips like knowing how many scum there are has become pretty standard site-meta, and he at least seems to try to develop his reads.

Imp takes most issue with Reecer's questions in 162, but I disagree that his questions are simply for the sake of questioning. I think admitting that his reads aren't fully formed, but wanting to contribute anyway is pretty genuine and towny.

Naomi's case on Reecer6 is quite interesting and I'm actually inclined to buy into it...What's frustrating is that Reecer6 doesn't appear to have any completed games so I can't check if this is just his standard playstyle or what.
-ac

This is what TR has to say on the matter of Reecer, which is pretty weak to say the least. Complaining about lack of information is worrying in that it doesn't contribute anything to the game except pointing out that they made the effort to check his meta. It's also worth noting that this post came less than a page after telling Reecer to vote Nul.

Nul's vote on Reecer is not justified at all, but he's the IC, so whatever.

[serrapaladin]

My condolences Elyse; all the best to you and your family.

---

As to the post I owe:

I feel like Serra is testing the waters by saying "I'll post about TR later because they're a loose cannon" and asking people what they think about us before doing so. The use of the phrase "lose cannon" is ambiguous, making his later post reflect what people have said about us when he asked.

"Loose cannon" was ambiguous because that's how I felt (and kind of still feel) about your slot. I wasn't even planning on asking anyone about you before making my post, but then fery came along and offered to converse for a bit...hardly my fault

Now, the Hap vote in 77 was indeed weak. I don't understand them taking Cheery's side vs. Nul and I fail to see the point of the wall in 122 about imp. The rest is sort of okay, if not particularly original, but I don't like the pecan vote.

Pecan is still scummy

. I can't quite put my finger on it but urging Metal Sonic to do something seemed like coaching. He calls him the main target of a PL and says he's hypocritical and passive, but does not place a vote on him. Are they a scumteam? Jk I can't post anything associative until someone flips.

The part in bold is particularly troubling, as they really haven't said anything about pecan at all. Bestwill had been gathering some scumreads for his lack of...well anything, but surely those are (at least mostly) eliminated by him replacing out. The timing of the vote is off, too, just as a potential wagon on them is taking off. Perhaps a bus?

I still feel stronger about Naomi, but I suppose that's probably not happening... I'll leave my vote here a bit in case cllue and Yates might want to join me and rally support, but I'll consider TR, MS and pecan.

[serrapaladin]

Come get Orci? I've somehow still not gotten around to playing a game with him...

[serrapaladin]

Surely if you're uncertain about the Reecer wagon, being on or off the wagon shouldn't go into your calculation at all?

[serrapaladin]

Rocket wagon has my support because of the uncertainty I have over the Reecer wagon. I'd rather lynch (and in this case sheep) from within the wagon than lynch Reecer himself.

Lynching from a wagon rather than off the wagon only really makes sense if the wagon was on a townread of yours... Uncertainty about the Reecer wagon should put people on and off the wagon on equal footing. Unless of course you know Reecer is town.

[serrapaladin]

Metal, I read your

case

on Reecer and I don't find it convincing at all

That's generous...

[serrapaladin]

I had a scum-read on Miss Stranger

Lol what? Please defend this...

well... guess I wasn't the only lazy person.

I guess everyone has their reasons. What's yours?

> I correctly identify her scummy coasting.

I believe this was Serra's strongest point against you, you're making it stick too.

I did make this point about Naomi, but the post you quoted actually refers to clue. Why did you wanna quote that to begin with? Do you want to help get Naomi lynched?

MS being replaced is a good thing, but I liked Miss. Robert might bother me a lot, if these posts are anything to go by.

[serrapaladin]

Magua's tried explaining his scum-read on Reecer for me (I think he'll be posting in here tomorrow morning) and I can see where he's coming from with it I just disagree with his conclusion

Why couldn't he have done this in thread? We have two days till deadline and three replacements who still owe content...

I don't really want to lynch the MS slot without at least hearing from Robert, so I guess it's pecan.

VOTE: pecan

[serrapaladin]

ok, really, your going to going to vote twice in one reply? Where is the reasoning on ether really? Vote hopping in the same post, lack of reasoning, plus some parts in this, why even post? Seems like spam to me. Not likeing this one bit,

Vote Team Rocket For reasoning above.

Not a fan of this. There are reasons to think TR are scummy, but it isn't this.

Robert: (where) have you played Mafia before? Do you consider yourself fairly new? Any sort of meta (completed games on other sites) we could take a look at?

[serrapaladin]

serra, you may be onto something. Cabd also found an interesting pattern in the scum game (described below). Hopefully players will revisit this on day 2.

-------------------------------

Cabd notes:

Voting pattern analysis of said newbie scumgame is rather telling. Always tries to be on the wagon early, usually second vote, in an attempt to outguess town’s movements. Towngames, votes seem more reactionary and less consistent with placement.

[serrapaladin]

Yates, don't bother with Naomi today. We just don't have the time. I'm still confident in my read on her, but that'll have to wait until tomorrow.

Unless we can get another extension while Nul and MS are being replaced (

How 'bout it, GiF?

), we should probably just lynch pecan.

pedit: oh for fuck sake Robert!

[serrapaladin]

[serrapaladin]

Riddle me this, Eff: if Naomi is so very town, why was she more bothered about making early cases than about actually getting a scumread of hers lynched now that we're approaching deadline?

[serrapaladin]

[serrapaladin]

No seriously though. What the hell? There wasn't a single vote on you, so there's no reason to claim, and there is absolutely no reason we shouldn't have 2 or more VT's. She simply HAS to be scum...

[serrapaladin]

I actually can't see scum ccing vt, they're not that stupid are they?

This isn't really good either...what is going on?

[serrapaladin]

Stuff.

Regfan and I both agree that Yates and Metal Sonic's slots are town. This is a very strong read for both of us.

In our QT, Regfan began to doubt Naomi-town with the "Naomi is playing against meta" case, which Regfan is a big believer in. I countered that the meta was from games almost 8 months ago, and things shift, so I wasn't particularly moved. Then Naomi happened in the thread, and both of us post, essentially, "wtf?" in the QT. I broke it down into two possibilities:
- Dumbtell (when someone does something so dumb they have to be town, because scum wouldn't do that thing), or
- Scum soft distancing from pieceofpecanpie partner (this was influenced by the "I think you're so scummy, I must counterclaim you, but I'm not voting you" mentality in the post)

Quick check of Naomi's games show 2of4 games (all of them 5 VT out of 9 players) in the Newbie queue, and her one mini theme being 7 VT out of 13 players. This is coupled with her earlier post that 13 players means 3 scum, because 4 would be too many, indicating a good grasp of site meta, combined with her being in games that feature > 50% VTs. The weird thing is that any sort of recognition that she did something untoward is entirely missing from her posts, which given some of the posts, borders on the oblivious. We can't reconcile this with either the scum or town mindset, so we're ignoring that part. Instead:

If pieceofpecanpie flips town, we do not believe Naomi-scum would not do this to pieceofpecan-town. There is no advantage to be had in making a counterclaim statement to a VT who is likely to be lynched anyway; it just brings extra attention on to her to no real gain, doubly so when the player they're cc'ing dies and flips VT.
If pieceofpecanpie flips scum, we feel there is a very strong chance that Naomi is soft distancing away from him.

The result is that we still both want to lynch pieceofpecanpie, which is why our vote hasn't moved.

~Magua

This is an excellent post. (Not only because you're starting to entertain the possibility of Naomi-scum.)

I feel you, GiF. 8 isn't unusual for a first game... I would know.

Reecer replacing out is weird though.

Pecan/Naomi is quite appealing.

[serrapaladin]

Yay!

[serrapaladin]

Naomi-Tan (L-6): morph the cat

Hadn't even noticed that, do you think a Naomi lynch today is realistic?

[serrapaladin]

...Or I just liked Naomi's case and thought it was logical.

That's brilliant!

I'll go through pecan's stuff later, although I must say I'm starting to become doubtful, mostly because he choses to go after the Miss Stranger slot, which would be quite the odd move as scum. More later.

[serrapaladin]

VOTE: Naomi

I'm actually somewhat doubting my pecan read. I can almost see where he's coming from with his Miss Stranger case, and I his recent posts have made me want to keep him around, at least until tomorrow.

Kalimar finally gives some decent content from that slot, even if I don't fully agree with it.

[serrapaladin]

VOTE: Naomi

I'm actually somewhat doubting my pecan read. I can almost see where he's coming from with his Miss Stranger case, and I his recent posts have made me want to keep him around, at least until tomorrow.

Serra, do you think Naomi-scum posted a counterclaim on popp-town's VT claim? This is seriously holding us up from thinking about voting Naomi today because we do not think that is possible (ie, the only way we think that Naomi is scum is if popp is also scum.)

Yates, deadline is on hold until replacements are found (see 578).

~Magua

I frankly don't know what to think about that VT claim. It really doesn't make any sense at all as town, as she doesn't know his alignment and should really know better than to think her being VT makes his claim any less likely. As scum, she might have meant it as some misguided gambit to either bus pecan-scum, or maybe even secure a mislynch on pecan-town before the tide turns back towards her. Either way, it's a horrible horrible claim, but as town her motives should be more clear, so I think she'd be less likely to come up with something like this.

[serrapaladin]

GM is the Miss Stranger slot, right? You know, that slot might actually be scum. God I wish we had a bit more time...

Unless we can get some quick support for the Naomi wagon, I'll have to be back on Pecan.

[serrapaladin]

This game.

[serrapaladin]

If pecan flips town I'll strongly consider the Miss Stranger slot.

I'd still rather see Naomi hang, but I guess that will have to wait...

[serrapaladin]

I think there's something to be said about the consistency of her reads wall, plus Robert and gm haven't been leaving a particularly townie impression.

[serrapaladin]

GiF has the single highest post-count of the game...

~ Your lovely mod

[serrapaladin]

Lol Magua, with 4 other scumreads. your PoE read on Reecer is a bit silly.

I guess we should probably hammer pecan. There isn't really much left to do...

However. @Naomi:

[serrapaladin]

I disagree with you quite strongly on that point, implosion. If Naomi is actually a VT, she would have had to be carrying a seriously large idiot ball to think that her being VT makes pecan scum. I think it's much more likely she was trying to do something clever...

Having a 5th PoE scumread is silly, because what PoE means is: "he's basically null or maybe softly leaning scum, but everyone else is so townie, that he's probably scum".

[serrapaladin]

Having a 5th PoE scumread is silly, because what PoE means is: "he's basically null or maybe softly leaning scum, but everyone else is so townie, that he's probably scum".

And this disagrees with what I said...how?

(Still not rhetorical.)

~Magua

A PoE scumread without a lack of scumreads is really just a nullread...

[serrapaladin]

Also, I might as well
VOTE: pecan.

Any last thoughts?

[serrapaladin]

I've read your play in other games. It was distinctly non-shit. Where else do you play Mafia, by the way?

[serrapaladin]

As much as I'm worried he might flip town, someone had better hammer pecan before we miss our DL.

[serrapaladin]

If you're around for DL, feel free to wait it out.

[serrapaladin]

Ugh, back to square 1...

gm looks more like a vig kill than multiball/sk, which I guess is a good thing.

Don't really want to lynch Naomi any more. Team Rocket/cheery are the closest to scumreads I have right now.

Looking forward to hear your thoughts, surviva.

I also might have to revisit the morph slot.

[serrapaladin]

I like this surviva guy.

Surviva: Where else have you played? Also, this forum has nice quote functions you can use, rather than copying stuff in italics.

[serrapaladin]

Ugh...bosses.

permalinks to posts are given by [*post]820[/post].

[serrapaladin]

How about we lynch one of {Yates, Cheery, morph} today?

[serrapaladin]

Besides fery's lack of fery-ness, I didn't really have a major problem with any of them. I don't have a strong read on any one of them (nor does anyone else, really), and I know all of them are capable of playing a good scum game.

[serrapaladin]

How about we lynch one of {Yates, Cheery, morph} today?

How about we lynch one of serrapaladin or serrapaladin today? You little bitch.

But that would be bad, because I'm town

[serrapaladin]

Kalimar, who did you call out as scum again? We should lynch everyone not on that list

[serrapaladin]

Aww crap!

What do you think of the eff kill?

Assuming they were the scum-kill and GM was had by a vig or sk, at the point scum decided to kill them, TR and GM were their top scum reads. Scum could have killed them because a) they were too obv-town and might have had a PR, b) their reads were too good (I don't think so) or c) their reads were bad and scum hoped we would follow them through by lynching TR and GM.

I actually see c as a decent possibility, as scum framing both TR and GM, in which case TR would be town.

With ppp's flip, I'm also really doubting my Naomi read, plus surviva, implosion and to a lesser degree Shamrock are town, so that would leave me with effen, Yates, and cheery.

[serrapaladin]

Oh you know what I mean...

[serrapaladin]

Oh good, cliffnotes that are longer than 95% of other people's posts. Welcome to the forums, surviva316, you almost lasted 20 posts before everyone hated you.

[serrapaladin]

Rereading

[serrapaladin]

Some quick notes about stuff that has changed upon rereading. I'll get up justifications for each as required:

I think I may have been completely wrong about interpreting the early game yesterday. Z7's slot is town, so I might have been on the wrong side of the Naomi/hapa thing.

I again can't help but reading MS as scummy for his early game.

And again fferyllt just doesn't seem to care very much. It's the whole "asking relevant questions that won't really help catching scum" thing. If ineff's involvement obvious wasn't up to scratch, I wonder why it took her so long to do anything about it.

I have no idea how to read Yates or CD :/

I really think there must have been scum on the Nul wagon before he revealed. That means there is 1 if not 2 scum in {TR, surviva, Yates}.

Not much to say about the rest until now that hasn't already been analysed to death.

I'm back to agreeing that TR sort of has to be today's lynch, but Morph/Cheery/Yates are all the scummy side of null.

Morph: what about Yates' play looks town to you? Have you read a scum game of his? He's quite good.

I have meta on Cheery (which isn't helpful) and Elyse (which as scum had her much more active and generally better, but that could just be caused by her lack of time).

[serrapaladin]

I'm back to agreeing that TR sort of has to be today's lynch

Can you explain what you mean by this? Why does he

have

to be today's lynch?

1. Their play just has been objectively the most scummy.
2. I doubt I'll be able to piece together a convincing case on morph/cheery/Yates.
3. If they're town, that would make Regfan wrong about all of his reads, which I don't think has ever happened.

I'll have to reconsider my read on the MS and Reecer slots (which are now Shamrock and surviva, I think?), but I don't see them as scum.

Didn't I say this on day 1? Hapa's reaction made sense to me, but in his first post Z7 was making exactly the excuses he made in the Hyrule Newbie game.

Yeah, yeah... what was your read on Hapa until he replaced then?

MS always looks scummy to me. Have you played other games with him?

I don't think I've played with him, but from what I've read, I do agree with this. I almost want to call it "too scummy to be scum"...Idk

I thought about replacing out on day 1 instead of switching to a different hydra, but between the number of replacements we saw yesterday and a stubborn intent to stick with even the level of commitment I made to this game, I decided against it. I have the occasional paranoid flash that the way you keep FoSing me is opportunistic but I've mostly thought that your play looks town-motivated. So, I'd like to know where you've done research and I'd also like to know if you want a second set of eyes. Actually, 2 sets of eyes. Cabd's game is more meta-based than mine.

The biggest problem I actually have with you was your aggressive reaction to my replace-in post. Instead of you immediately explaining your lack of stuff, you were slightly too quick to bring up our last game. I do like Cabd's play so far though, but I still have to meta him individually.

Since you asked, some notes on meta:

Elyse: She replaced into a scum-slot in I think her first Newbie. Was more poised than here. Since then she's only been town, where her play is looser. I want to say this fits her town-meta more, but wouldn't put any money on it, as she only has 1 completed scumgame and it was her first game onsite at that.

Implosion: only has 1 recent scum game, which was pretty average. Read him as pretty obvtown in his recent towngames. Would be very surprised if scum.

Yates: nominated for manipulation scummy. His play here is almost too boring to correspond with his usual scum-meta, he might just be chilling because people are townreading him and he's busy elsewhere.

Cheery: read several games, he's the same in all of them. not worth metaing.

Naomi: her play does correspond more to her scum-meta, but I suppose that is just too long ago to be accurate. (I agree with eff's assessment that town PPP means town Naomi.)

MS: too scummy to be scum in most of his town games. Slightly more tryhard in the one scum-game I've read. The "oh people are going to say this is scummy" looks like his town game.

Reecer: one town game I check looked pretty much like this one.

Some fun scum!Yates games.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=24130
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=25869

Your and Cabd's opinion on Yates and Elyse would be appreciated.

To do: Cadb, acfan, Shamrock

[serrapaladin]

So he obviously cares less about this game than the other ones he's in? I've known Yates to somewhat care about his scumgames, unless of course he's confident enough that he's basically won this.

[serrapaladin]

Yates. Yates. YATES!

[serrapaladin]

Oh don't be like that, Yatesy. Of course we'll keep you, but it wasn't weekend when D2 started on Wednesday

[serrapaladin]

VOTE: cheery

[serrapaladin]

Let's just flip TR and see what happens?

VOTE: Team Rocket

L-1

[serrapaladin]

Oh shush, you. I never had anything close to a scumread on Cheery, and you should really view my temporary vote on him in context. Nice try to start another counterwagon to yourself though.

[serrapaladin]

Opportunism detected.

Actually, I hadn't noticed this. And that's not serra's style as Town.

VOTE: Serrapaladin

#irony

[serrapaladin]

serrapaladin has been prodded.

Well, this is embarrassing...

I still think TR is the only reasonable choice for today, but I'll take another look at this tomorrow.

The fact that fery seems to have a similar impression of Elyse's meta is a bit worrying. For me, it's not a particularly strong one given that she only has the one completed newbie as scum, but if we both have that impression it's at least worth exploring.

[serrapaladin]

Going through D2 again:

Excellent entrance by surviva. The try-hard walls are really townie, and actually good content.

Also, given that GM is town and eff's last words were that magua was convinced at least two of {ppp, gm, tr} were scum, I think effulgence would likely be alive if tr were town, at least for today, given that scum would probably expect them to push a mislynch (this assumes that the mafia killed effulgence). I can frankly see GM as a vig kill or an SK kill, by the way.

This was my first thought, too, except I could also see good scum offing eff when all of his scumreads are town so they could open with this argument to secure two mislynches (scum likely had no reason to believe GM would also die).

TR defaulting to attack the universal null/scum-read Cheery is predictably bad. The reasoning for surviva is worse:

Just for full disclosure here are my (Ac, not necessarily same for Elyse)'s reads
Scum - Cheery Dog (because of gut, his interactions with Nul, and POE)
Maybe Scum - surviva316 (

Naomi's case on Reecer6, plus his walls look a tad bit manufactured and don't really say anything new

), Yates (gut)
Null - serrapaladin (although post 819 looks a tad bit like buddying so if surviva ends up being town that could put this in the maybe scum pile), morph the cat
Maybe Town - implosion, Shamrock
Town - Naomi-Tan
-ac

I'm getting the feeling implosion is over-selling the whole 'telling TR to not give up and play the game' thing. It's worth noting that implosion was called out on sort of coasting behind eff's reads end of D1 and started posting more, but not necessarily more content.

Not sure what more to say at this point...
My townread on Naomi is wavering, based on her recent posts just generally not being constructive.
-ac

Not sure if TR-scum would bother with any sort of read-progression at this point. Gut reaction says no.

939 and 947 by cheery are weird. He votes Yates, based on some misguided meta attempt, only to unvote immediately.

I'll stick by my statement that TR is the best lynch for today.

Both halves of morph are still avoiding any of the major arguments going on, which I'm worried about. Yates' aggressive response to people pointing out his inactivity is off, but I guess makes sense with his replace-out.

[serrapaladin]

If I ignore MS, I'd have to say town.

[serrapaladin]

I've been over MS, I think, and the best conclusion I can come up with is "too scummy to be scum". Shamrock has actually been constructive.

[serrapaladin]

It's posts like these that are just awful from MS, but I want to believe he'd be less so as scum.

oh man

with the exception of #162 (and that's really not enough to exonerate him),

I must say that reecer is scum

his first 5 posts are fluff, but I don't care about that

he only observes and posts the obvious, while speaking on the sidelines and not actually contributing much

trying to blend in as town but actually just repeating obvious facts as-is and describing everything, so his "content" is actually obvious description


but I saw a post #162 when he got asked for his own observations, and he actually made some, so that is good. however, he does not have any more observations after that and that leads me to think that he is just making up reads for the sake of making them, and thus not actively doing so/scumhunting to benefit the town


scum

VOTE: Reecer

*making up reads only when asked or questioned, so as to avoid suspicion

[serrapaladin]

I know his meta, what of it?

[serrapaladin]

For example?

[serrapaladin]

I don't really see that as a pattern across his town-games though, and he replaced out here before he could deathtunnel on Reecer.

[serrapaladin]

You might be right, but I just don't see it...

[serrapaladin]

I'm off for now, but please make sure not to miss the DL you guys.

[serrapaladin]

gg scum. wtf town.

[serrapaladin]

and damn it I should have stuck to my gut-read on fery :/

[serrapaladin]

Yeah, surviva had me totally fooled, nice play! I really shouldn't have spoken up against the Reecer lynch.

[serrapaladin]

13p games with an sk are extremely hard to balance. 1-shot cop and 1-shot tracker just isn't enough town investigative power to deal with 4 scum. Interestingly, if you have a "typical" 3/13 or 2/9 scum, adding an sk for a VT doesn't change the scum win chance much at all, but really screws over town. If you have a setup that's more or less balanced as 3:10, that same setup is more or less balanced as 1:3:9 if scum loses their ability to night kill, but horrendously unbalanced if scum keeps their kill.

The big problem I had was that I had reads I couldn't build cases around. I don't think I could have gotten Yates/morph/Cheery lynched had I tried. I should have argued against the TR lynch, but had no one to substitute, given I had copped Naomi. Incidentally, that was another problem. I think my complete flip on reading Naomi was already quite obvious, but I had no idea how to crumb that my joat had a cop, and that I got an inno on Naomi. Fery, did you guys figure out I had copped Naomi?

Not lynching claimed scum, regardless of setup spec, is really unforgivable. That being said, 2 mislynches shouldn't be able to doom the town, but I guess that's the swinginess of multiball.

The modding was excellent, thanks GiF!

[serrapaladin]

> Mafia claims Mafia in lylo situation

> town lynches someone else

Correction. NAOMI lynches someone else.

This is not fair. Naomi isn't entirely to blame for D3. When scum claims scum, ALL town should immediately vote. If anyone doesn't immediately vote the claimed scum, there's room for doubt.

Fery, I agree I wasn't looking particularly town. I honestly wanted to push one of you/cheery/Yates hard, but any case I could have made would have been fabricated to fit my gut read.

I'm mildly annoyed at myself, since in this game, my gut was right, but I decided not to follow it, whereas in the other game I just finished and lost, I wrongly trusted a gut-townread, when logic said otherwise, and I had the rest of the scumread down. I should just start flipping a coin