Mini 1532: Mac's Mini Normal - GAME OVER~

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hi guys

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Here's one for Mister Lloyd Erwin.

VOTE: Pieguyn

Hi rem!

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I was anticipating an RVS vote or comment or some such from that slot based on our last game.

Mafia is srsbsnz.

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I'm not going to indulge on the reason why I voted ICE just yet. I'll say that it has to do with a game we shared that recently finished and something caught my eye both in this game and that one. I need more information, but I'm pretty sure of it happening in this game as well.

I'll be very curious to see what you've picked up. I'm not seeing much parallel between the two games so far.

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also if dj and tunnel are both scum that means that i know all 3 scum

If TV's scum, we'll easily know by the rank:bauss post ratio

Annie is obvtown.

I agree.

SoS

Need help?
(My god how much I wanted to make this joke for a while!)

I placed my vote for something else and I realized pie-ice afterwards, but it's good to see I'm not the only one.

What was the something else?

Also - about this pie-ice connection. Are y'all voting him because he voted away from pie immediately following two votes for pie, as a sort of attempt to de-rail that "wagon," or something else? Because if that's the case, given RVS, I don't really see that as suspicious. If I'm missing the point, though, please clarify.

And who the hell is Annie?

I don't think so.
What made you think that way, just for curiosity? Because I didn't got that feeling.

I placed my vote for something else and I realized pie-ice afterwards, but it's good to see I'm not the only one.

What was the something else?

Also - about this pie-ice connection. Are y'all voting him because he voted away from pie immediately following two votes for pie, as a sort of attempt to de-rail that "wagon," or something else? Because if that's the case, given RVS, I don't really see that as suspicious. If I'm missing the point, though, please clarify.

And who the hell is Annie?

Pie claimed three scumreads in the reads list. Two of them were OMGUSes, whatever. I do that in RVS.

One of them wasn't, and was on IceNinja. This suggests a legitimate scumread, which would be the one worthy of a vote, and yet the vote went on to one of the random people

That doesn't add up.

And that's what I thought.

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Rem are you town?

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Yes.

Are you ?

Always.

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No, I mean there's romeo the guy who is crying over juliet's (faked) death. And then there's Romero (the actor) who is crying cause he's thinking about his dear old gran's death because he needed to cry for his leading role in the play. The audience can't tell the difference.

I can't comprehend today so what is this referencing to?

@SoS,

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I haven't played with him so idk if the frustration is forced or not. It does look too early for the frustration, but I didn't feel anything scummy.

Also I'm leaving now for the family party. See ya!

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it didn't*

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I don't think of meta as something that requires the same circumstances.

I think of it as insight into how they see themselves and how they approach and interact with others

. You riled yourself up before posting, You let your frustration from the site being down seep into your words and I'm curious as to the motivation behind that.

Agree with the bolded.

Re frustration, I'm pretty annoyed at how many games I need to catch up on today so I can kinda relate.

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For example, FF asked if I was town because she saw my "out of the box thinking" but is it because she's town and looking for that? Or because she knows she would notice that as town, but she's actually scum?

That was GiF.

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How can you suddenly have more games to catch up to, when everyone else was experiencing the same downtime?

This question makes no sense to me.

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@SoS I think Hayato means that since no one could connect, the games GiF was in haven't advanced, no one has posted in them. So having frustration that the site was down because he had fallen behind in his other game, makes no sense. I have difficulty understanding that bit of empathy by GiF too. Since I don't think Iceninja is in any other games than this one.

That post was me, not GiF. I'm overloaded with games and haven't been able to stay in-the-moment this week.

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Well actually you can get behind if
1) you're already behind
2) site goes down whenever you try to catch up
3) site goes up when you can't access and more posts are made
4) by the time you have time to catch up, site is down.

My case, GIF

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@GIF: what do you think of my reads list?

Long and Arviessie.

Why mention jon's same post twice?

@SoS, what do you think about the section where Pieguyn addresses Iceninja?

Looks kinda weaker than his usual stuff, but that's all I have right now.

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But this guy already answered your question.

Also I wanted to post something from the gtalk we had on other day and I can't remember it (and log isn't on this iPod)
Great.

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Also if "that game" is IN mafia, I didn't read 75% of the game due to my absence.

P-Edit: oh that was a questions for us? I thought you were asking fery about your readlist.

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Also I can't link worth a shit. I usually Zelda or Ice Climber.

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Oh, my answer.

If it's what I think it is, it's a Varsoon-fu. Otherwise, I dunno.

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Fishing reactions (or waiting for "opportunistic" pounce) by acting scummy/weak on purpose.

I'm calling those kind of reaction tests Varsoon-fu because I saw him doing it in borkgame (micro)

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Then I dunno.
Sakura told me once that you do that for reaction stuff but that's all I know.
(And it does look like a Varsoon-fu to me with the two omgus scumreads )

Also RC's rxn to your readlist looked town.

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Elk is my strongest read. Everyone else, I keep swinging my reads back and forth every time I read their posts and interpret it differently, wondering whether they are recalling how they're supposed to speak as town as scum, or whether they're generally trying to scum hunt.

For example, FF asked if I was town because she saw my "out of the box thinking" but is it because she's town and looking for that? Or because she knows she would notice that as town, but she's actually scum?

What about Radiant? His second post, is what I would expect from him, but is he trying to remember his intensity as town, as scum? Or is he town?

Elk has an excitement that he recognizes in himself that I think is townie. I choose to believe his eagerness is genuine, and he thinks he messed up by accusing him too early, I don't necessarily think Ice is scum though, so my vote isn't there yet.

Instead I'm voting Mephistopheles. Why do you think that is, Tunnel?

Now that you learned that it wasn't fery, I'm curious to see your thoughts on that question now.

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@SoS, what do you think about the section where Pieguyn addresses Iceninja?

Are you talking about in post 95?

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do you see what I'm seeing about RC?
@ffery: same question

Touhou?

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Just putting on my, as FF likes to call it, diplomat hat.

Your meta-fu is impressive.

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@Pedit: Yeah, I've read most of your hydra games, because I was wondering why you weren't signing your posts. Was it a hydra game? I forgot.

It's come up in a few of my hydra games. The first few people I hydra'd with were even more abrasive than I can be when I get my dander up, so I tend to be less volatile when playing as a hydra.

I don't sign my posts any more, and haven't for months. When I can tell that people are having trouble differentiating posts, I try to add enough context and enough personal quirks that it's more obvious who is posting. Mostly when hydraing I don't make any effort to disguise or mimic my partners or they me.

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the second time I tried it was in imperishable night and one of the scum started questioning said reads (and both ffery/GIF were in that game. this is the parallel I was mentioning)

Ah. I thought you were talking about Mastin's reads list. He posted his earlier in the game iirc. It made more of an impression on me. I remember your tangle with varsoon, though, and muffin wading into it.

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TunnelVision is going to start walling soon.

I laughed out loud.

I'm seeing lots of TvT going down, IMO. How about everybody starts digging into the scumballs instead?

- Bauss -

Vote TunnelVision

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catch-up incoming.

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Holidays and past week have been crazy. Catch up post inbound today/tonight.

Rank

Looking forward to this with great interest.

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Pie I have trouble buying your assertions about how scum vs town would react to your test.

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It surprises me a little that no one has joined us in that vote, or at least asked us about it if they couldn't see what would draw it.

What passes for a wall post awaits our synching up.

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Also, how was SoS's vote justified? Unless I missed something, they voted because TV didn't start walling. That combined with the lack of catch up post that was promised combined with prodding another player to make a catch up post just looks really suspicious to me.

You did miss something. The thing that drew our vote was TV posting an exhortation that the people tunneling each other start scumhunting when TV had done fuck-all in the way of scumhunting to that point and continued to do fuck-all afterwards. I didn't say why I made the vote because I wanted reactions to evaluate.

You know from the one game that we've played together that I don't necessarily explain my votes from the start, and that in fact I'm perfectly willing to take flack for not doing so in the interest of gathering more data. Or at least you should know that.

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[quote="In post 315, pieguyn"]Sound of Silence (a hydra of fferyllt and GuyInFreezer) <- ffery has hardly done anything at all this game. IMO it'd make sense if it's bc she rolled scum. I'd also expect her to be pressuring me more which she hasn't done yet, especially if she doesn't agree with the basis behind THE LIST. I have what I think is a meta tell on GIF and there was one post that seemed like town him but not enough data to write them off as town for just that[/quote

Why are you expecting me to pressure you more? If anything, I'd be trying to haul players off you at this point if RC had more traction.

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Quote fail. That's to pieguyn.

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This is infuriating, but semi-prod dodge.

Quick question I should have asked a long time ago: @Everyone: Why are you town reading/scum reading me? Specifics, with the exception of Frog, who already gave a reason and Tunnel because I will have to channel the spirit of Mahatma to get through that and I don't want to encourage him.

UNVOTE:

GiF was thinking you're town pretty early on, and I trust him to read you. But, I'd be leaning town on my own, mostly on the basis of watching your thought process in the hunterxhunterx game in the dead qt after we were both dead and still trying to figure the game out.

There was something you did in that game that impressed the hell out of me. It was when you town-read Remilia Scarlet-bork on the basis of his posts having a lonely feel to them. It wasn't just what you picked up on, it was the way you described it, which spoke to a real effort to get inside bork's head and see the game from his perspective.

That was when my own townread of you solidified in hunterx. I haven't had that kind of epiphany in this game, but I'm seeing what looks like very genuine scumhunting from you in your interactions, especially the way you sweep aside semi-mature scumreads to get people to focus on the components of their read so you can get a better sense of their thought process.

I'm more reliant on experiential meta than in data from cold-reading old game threads. And that means I've only seen your town game up close. In fact, I'm not even sure you've ever had a scum role at MS. When I last did a meta dive before your hiatus I couldn't find one.

I'll be kinda surprised if as scum you can duplicate what I'm picking up from your interactions.

I expect that this post answers you as well, Bauss. If not, then you'll probably have to ask your question differently.

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I expect that this post answers you as well, Bauss. If not, then you'll probably have to ask your question differently.

That Fferyllt there? Where are you at with your town game? I remember dramatically different play from you when you were town. This feels more like your scum game so far, content/contribution light. As town, you were a champion contributer.

- Bauss -

I don't remember you considering me a champion contributor when our mutual town game was in progress. :/

This kinda surprises me, since so far this game isn't much like most of my town or scum meta. I guess it's holiday meta! My schedule is going to stay crazy for another couple days and then the guests clear out and my time constraints get back to normal.

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@RC, okay.

@SoS: I would like your opinion on Hayato. Experiential is something you have with him.

Did you read Newbie 1449? I picked up two really clear indicators that he was coming from a scum mindset and I didn't pursue them as hard as I should have.

In reading his posts, I've kept half an eye out for something similar, though I think he's a quick study and probably won't make those classes of errors again.

On a surface level, his interactions here seem a lot more spread out and diverse than what I saw in Newbie 1449, but I feel like there's a guardedness to his posts. I modded his first MS game (Newbie 1430), and in that game he was a lot more transparent than what I've seen in his play since then.

This is a top-of-the-head opinion. I'm penciling in some research time for later today or possibly tomorrow.

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I have a ton of catch up to do in a ton of games. Priority on this one is a little lower because of the suspended deadline but I want to go through Hayato, ICEninja and Bauss today as well as mop up any questions that have been left for me. Bauss first.

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For the record, the reason everyone should vote TV is this snippet from SoS:

You did miss something. The thing that drew our vote was TV posting an exhortation that the people tunneling each other start scumhunting when TV had done fuck-all in the way of scumhunting to that point and continued to do fuck-all afterwards. I didn't say why I made the vote because I wanted reactions to evaluate.

Take that then add on the fact that as soon as a wagon started building on him at a point that was, at the time, deadline looming, he drops his vote on the largest wagon for absolutely trash reasoning.

He is the counter wagon to me, who is the largest wagon but has zero votes with legit reasoning behind them.

This is BS and even SoS knows it. That's why they aren't pushing it. They tossed a vote on me and a wimpy reason to fish for a reaction. I generally, as town, sit back and watch to see what develops on D1 until I have conviction. Then I death tunnel like a rage fueled Juggernaut. SoS knows this, as do I.

"even SoS knows this.

Is there a reason why you're subtly discrediting my meta experience with you here? It is pretty thin meta experience, but I'm used to making do with thin meta soup.

You do sit back and observe, but this is page 18 of a mini game and IME you give some pretty strong hints about where you're going much earlier than this in the games we've played.

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I don't remember you considering me a champion contributor when our mutual town game was in progress. :/

You had a LOT of posts. Lots of chatter. Engaging the player base. Talking, exploring, etc. Whether I liked your content or not, there was a vast amount of it. Now, in a recent game you were scum... everybody kept saying "This must be scum Fferyllt, she just doesn't post much." And, I didn't get it until I reread on you and dug a bit farther. It seemed pretty apparent, that when you're scum, you def post less frequently and engage other players significantly less.

- Bauss -

Quantity of posts doesn't distinguish my scum game, though depending on the games you take a look at (town and scum) you could come away with that impression. You obviously didn't have a look at the Xenogears Large theme game. Even when AFB was making 5-6 post combos raging at you in NY 167, the Sangres post count was always higher, and the majority of those posts were mine. That changed on the final day with the gunsmith reveal and RC's faked cop guilty. In other words, I can and do manipulate my post count as scum sometimes.

The observation about engaging probably has some truth, but it's a subtle thing that could easily be lost in the noise in my games, because I go silent frequently as town, too, especially when a lot is happening in the game thread. Observing without jostling what's going on too much is sometimes pretty revealing. I think you probably understand the reasons for that technique because you also employ it.

So, I'm left with the task of figuring out if your waiting game this time had town or scum motivation, because your wait/pounce style of play should work well for both alignments.

You

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^^ Xenoblade, not Xenogears.

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Rank has been absent for basically the whole game. Do his thoughts differ from yours significantly?

Also, is this typical of your hydra?

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hayato's play was unspecific, there was very little like reasons for his town leans and scum leans starting with that post. Some of the posts had a lot of opinion and very little substance for their size.

RC moves in and he interprets what he RC says as a bluff (It's a tool) denies RC, but then says he's bluffing and decides that he wants to make it an RC vs. HayatoBL lynch. Why did he think his position warranted it? How could be so sure with that RC was scum given his reasoning? And why did he make a very insincere speech about it? It felt like he was shoring up for the winter and needed to post something big before he left. I don't know if it's because he felt cornered and felt he needed to make a big play or what, but it's unexplained, unexpected, and antitown.

@Aegor, you said I was your strongest town read. What? Why doesn't your reasoning for that exist?

I skimmed this analysis the other night, and it's the main reason I wanted to look at hayato again. I was turned off by the huge back and forth between hayato and grimgroove in our last game. grimgroove came away from it with an erroneous town read. I am not at all complacent about Hayato this time, but the walls have the same effect on my motivation.

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Pie can live for today because Hayato is a much more pressing concern. If votes were to return to him, I would happily lynch that, but at the moment my vote stays where it is.

If you are voting TV, you are hardclaiming scum

.

How so?

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Is there a reason why you're subtly discrediting my meta experience with you here? It is pretty thin meta experience, but I'm used to making do with thin meta soup.

You do sit back and observe, but this is page 18 of a mini game and IME you give some pretty strong hints about where you're going much earlier than this in the games we've played.

I did not discredit at all. I actually believe that your vote and play was a pressure move, not a legit "I think TV is scum, let's hang him." I thought you were doing it to flesh out s read, not to actually lynch me. Am I wrong or right in that assumption?

You're right, I do tend to point out where I'm going pretty early... which I did.

GiF pressure-votes. When I put a vote down, it's a serious vote and I'm willing to lynch based on what I have to go on at that point in time. Our vote on you fit both approaches.

Quantity of posts doesn't distinguish my scum game, though depending on the games you take a look at (town and scum) you could come away with that impression. You obviously didn't have a look at the Xenogears Large theme game. Even when AFB was making 5-6 post combos raging at you in NY 167, the Sangres post count was always higher, and the majority of those posts were mine. That changed on the final day with the gunsmith reveal and RC's faked cop guilty. In other words, I can and do manipulate my post count as scum sometimes.

The observation about engaging probably has some truth, but it's a subtle thing that could easily be lost in the noise in my games, because I go silent frequently as town, too, especially when a lot is happening in the game thread. Observing without jostling what's going on too much is sometimes pretty revealing. I think you probably understand the reasons for that technique because you also employ it.

But its more than simply the quantity. Its more the quantity/quality, or overall "usefulness" of the posts. Where you're coming from, where you're going, what's the game status, who are you developing a read on, who's opinion are you trying to leverage off, etc. You were a leader as town, trying to rally townies to work together. As scum you weren't. It feels as if youre not part of the team when you're scum. Its nuance, but I found it and I think its a pretty good window into your play.

I do like to lead when I feel I have a handle on the game. And what you are describing is trajectory, at least part of it is, which is something I try to lay down in my posts as either alignment, and in fact get quite meticulous about when I'm scum.

There's a huge blank hole in my play due to the holidays and being hellishly over-committed in games. It's starting to resolve but I still have games that haven't gotten enough love.

So, I have one last point/observation that I need clarity on:
Why are you voting me?
I've noticed from your play that you have been reluctant to hang players that you know can be assets to the town, if you are uncertain of their alignment. So why, at this stage of the game, given my play (which you said yourself could jive with either alignment) are you voting me? Surely with several days remaining, and other suspects around, there are other plays to be made... but you've parked your vote on me even as I sit at L2. I think town Fferyllt would've cautioned against this and unvoted, in this game state.

- Bauss -

I'm voting you for three reasons. At the time I put the vote down, it was because of the scummiest looking post in the game up to that point. I still haven't seen an individual post that exceeds that one. I wanted your reaction - which was basically ignoring the vote until your wagon hit L-2, and I wanted the reactions of other players, which I've gotten. And thirdly I wanted to see who would put you at L-1. And no one has, which suggests either scum don't have a strong appetite for your lynch, or they've already committed as many votes to the wagon as they're willing to given the game state.

UNVOTE

You've encouraged others to look on their own wagons for scum. What are your thoughts about your wagon's composition.

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Because his last posts are more like the town-bauss I remember from our first game.

We'll put our vote down again when we've decided where we want it.

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I didn't think it was feasible due to a lot of "Rem is town" reads everywhere

I don't understand your Rem-scum logic. Going through your wall, it looks like you had a Rem/frog scum team in mind, and your Rem case is predicated on their interactions. frog wound up in your town pile.

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I had Rem scum, then frog looked like a legit buddy, but then frog was town

Ok. What's your rationale for Rem-scum?

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"mastinmindy". heh.

Have you played with him before?

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Damn it Rem.

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Hayato,

your vote has basically been parked on RC since post 78. Looking at that post, the reason why you voted him was because he put his vote on one of his scumreads instead of the other, and the read was associative rather than direct.

Why did that bother you?

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I hate this game.

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v/la through 1/8

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I'm alive, but not really back from v/la. I'm having a quick look at all my games tonight.

Good to see you again, CDB. You replaced into a slot I'm townreading. I'll try to remember that if paranoia sets in this game.

I'll look through for actual vote reasons tomorrow sometime and respond to them.

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wait for mod

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We crumbed miller so we can use it on the massclaim and troll the scum if they leave us alive but I guess that grand plan ain't happening due to our idc-ness
Bonus points for whoever finds it.

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We shot flameaxe. He didn't die.