Mini 1585: Muskoka Murder Mystery - Game Over

[Aneninen]

/confirm

[Aneninen]

VOTE: Boonskiies

because his name is an anagram for "nisie koobs", which means nothing and sounds scummy.

BipolarChemist,

I looooved the intro, except for this part:

The smell of bacon, eggs and maple syrup filled the air

Eeeew! I hate bacon ^_^

[Aneninen]

VOTE: Aneninen
Not liking Bacon seems suspicious. OuO
Me? Forget a game? Not this time around partner.

Don't lynch a vegetarian! We taste bad!

[Aneninen]

(...) Broodking, do you do this useful meta survey for every game? If not, why are you dioing it for this game among others?

I usually don't do it for larger games, but it seems like the pace of this game might be slower. (...) I just want to get the conversation going by putting out some reads and actual information people can talk out. (...)

(The Quotes has been edited by me)

Your answer is logical. This game starts out really slow; perhaps everyone's too cautious. A pity that you didn't manage to get too many reads, in spite of your efforts. Still, that meta-read was a town-vibe post for me.
But you left out not only Reinoe but also the Misaka-hydra and Evilpacman and you changed the name order. I don't know whether it's singificant.

[Aneninen]

We feel that the wagon is scum-driven. It's a crap wagon.

~F

My vote was only a random vote. Boonskiies pointed out that as well.
Besides, his question whether anyone a read had seems to be newbish, not esentially scummy to me.

[Aneninen]

I read that khm, "claim" but I simply thought it was a joke.

[Aneninen]

I see it very differently, so far Boon has

finished

one game and that game was a newbie game. Right now he is 5 games including a newbie, pretty in over his head as you said.

(...)

The question mark bouncing around my head is: if he is scum where is the help? His posts don't feel coached and their quality suggests confused townie more than scum. If you can explain why a scum buddy would let this wagon keep gaining traction, I'm all ears.

5 games!? Isn't that a bit too much? I don't think I could handle that many games but, it's possible that others are less busy than I am.

The second part is a very good question. That gave me an idea and I'm going to keep my eyes open.

@Konowa

Why exactly did you claim Miller? (1) Joke (2) Reaction test (3) Because you are one (4) Other...?
Because, I thought it was a joke. Especially since If I remembered that the Miller role is a hidden one.
But, having read the Wiki-page again, I realized that it

is

a common tactic to claim in the first post. (And, it's not esentially a hidden role.) if so, you might clarify this question for me. (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Miller)
I don't know whether it is a good tactic to ask this question but I have no experience with Millers. If you don't want to answer my question, at least give a theoretical post about Millers, please.

[Aneninen]

Hi, Guyett!

I repeat: I hate bacon ! ^_^

[Aneninen]

Hello my Hungarian friend.

Why do you hate Bacon? This is worrisome as I hear only mafia and veggies hate bacon... Also I was in a place near our glorious mod recently and had magnificent Hungarian style salami.... please tell me you like that wonderful tasty meat

I regret to say,
/me veggie (though fish is ok).
Now you can put your vote back on me ^_^

[Aneninen]

So... a pigeon has just arrived. ^_^

[Aneninen]

Hi y'all. I like to do walls, and this post is likely to be one, so you're warned.

No problem, at least someone does something ^_^

Post 6: I'm curious to know startfromtheheart's motivation for posting completely random reads. To me, it seems like a way to creation "suspicion" when people would just be reacting to them out of emotion or fury, especially when they are so conspicuously broadcasted as random.
Post 29: I could be super reading into this but Aeneinen's "Don't lynch a vegetarian!" line feels desperately and inappropriately afraid of a lynch at that point in the game.
Post 36: don_johnson, what exactly makes a forced RVS vote suspicious? I would agree that Boonskiies vote could be considered forced, but I'm not making the link.
In the same paranoid vein as my feelings toward Post 29, I'm wary of Broodking's 44. I guess y'all may think I'm taking RVS jokes to serioiusly, but I feel like those early lines could hide subconscious nervousness on the part of scum.

Yes, you're taking RVS jokes too seriously. Set 29, 125 and 133 against each other ^_^
44 is similar... maybe it would be a better question: why isn't he voting (and why hasn't he voted yet)?
36 is a null for me.
6 hmmm... most probably a reaction check.[/post] It was ignored, however, you posted an answer in 51. I think that was a joke as well, wasn't it? And yet you're trying to make reads out of jokes. Strange...

FoS

Chevre

Post 194: what? wait, did reinoe just 180 on his whole "conf town" for Konowa's miller claim?

Sure did. Konowa is acting really scummy and Guyett's "scum would never claim miller because they might get policy lynched" while at the same time..."reinoe said we should policy lynch miller. he's totes scum!!!!!" indicates that it's time to test the miller claim.

Oops! You've got a point.

FoS

Reinoe too!

Post-edit

You're also setting up Konowa to be a lynch later in the game for *reasons*

Well, I'm fine with lynching Konowa now too.

Wait, what?!
NoNoNoNoNONO

NO

!

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Reinoe

[Aneninen]

I've left this out. My other read on Reinoe is: what's the story about meta-analyzing a wagon containing 50% of random votes?

[Aneninen]

I've left this out. My other read on Reinoe is: what's the story about meta-analyzing a wagon containing 50% of random votes?

The meta would be for Misaka network and Konowa. It's no longer necessary given Konowa's conduct.

Erm... excuse me, girls and guys, I know I'm not a native speaker, but, isn't there a difference between "would" and "would have been"?

[Aneninen]

@Antihero

Because the story about the jokes of the RVS posts is strange given that he has made an RVS joke himself. I want an answer for that. Because scums can perform distancing and bussing as well. But, first of all, because I think Reinoe is scummier, regardless of Chevre's vote.

hey you
question mark hallway thing

OLOLOLOLOL, the best name ever I have been given ^_^

[Aneninen]

I know I'm not a particularly experienced player but I don't think an early massclaim would be a good idea, regardless of having a Miller or not.

A townie should not lie about his role, I suppose. So, every townie claims their real role. Therefore the scums may have every data they need about the setup and the identities of the townies' roles while the townies can only have a rough estimation about the setup. Even worse, the scums can falseclaim many kind of roles that are hard to be confirmed (eg. Backup-X, Even-Night Jailkeeper) so as to confuse our setup reads. We may end up lynching our own power roles due to mistrust or serve them on a silver tray to get them nightkilled. In addition, a real turmoil would occour if we have eg. a Serial Killer out there as well...

Also, I don't see why we should test that Miller claim. As someone has already said, if that claim is true Konowa will be Nightkilled early. If not, he is going to get lynched after a couple of days because of the lack of a Nightkill. Fake-claiming a Miller has much more disadvantages than advantages.

Prove me if I'm wrong.

[Aneninen]

I'm catching up as soon as I can. Unexpected works have arrived (IRL).

[Aneninen]

I've still had an issue on Chevre which I posted in 213 (check out part below the second quote). Though he posted another long analysis later he didn't give any explanation for my issue. (314).

that's because half the playerlist hasn't even addressed it yet

noooope you're scum

...Whut?

[Aneninen]

If someone is scum, claims miller and just plays well then that scum has a free pass.[/b]

Any scum who plays well is going to get a "free pass". It's really hard to follow your thought process here if you are town. "Testing the miller claim" makes it seem as if you are policy lynching now. Is that the case?

No, people who play well are sometimes investigated by cops just to make sure they're not scum fooling everyone. Miller nullifies this.
Yeah, it's part policy lynch. I said the safest thing to do is policy lynch the miller. But I also think you're scummy.

(Quotes has been edited by me)

Konowa: I put a like on this sentence:

Any scum who plays well is going to get a "free pass".

In addition, I still don't think how claiming Miller could help the scums without hindering them more.

Reinoe: Yes, a Miller can fool a Cop but, there may be other roles which a Miller has nothing against. But, first of all, how exactly could a Miller avoid a Nightkill?

"Yeah, it's part policy lynch. I said the safest thing to do is policy lynch the miller. But I also think you're scummy."

–

I Super-loathe this logic!

It means "It's not really a policy lynch because you're a scum but if you weren't, I still would like to lynch you." noNOnoNOnoNOnoNO, that's STILL a policy lynch no matter how you pack it in.

[Aneninen]

@Chevre

: I pointed out something long ago, you gave no response, I pointed out it again, you gave a response. That's all, case dismissed.

@Don Johnson

: I don't like your playstyle too. What's that "reading is overrated and check out my record and you'll see that I'm right" thing? (Note: The previous one was not a quote, that was only a paraphrase.) So far I have been thinking votes and actions are results of communication and reading.

[Aneninen]

As if you cared about my opinion. As if I voted for you. As if it were worth talking about it. ^_^

[Aneninen]

WFT is happening here?

And how do we know whether it was a fake?

[Aneninen]

does anyone else have a problem with me?
i'll replace out if so. let me know.

WHUT?

'Dis is a f---ing game and we're f---ing playing it. Why should anyone replace out?

[Aneninen]

???
Your post hadn't appeared when I posted the previous one and yet, the time-tags of the posts don't match. What kind of Ninja was that? LOL!

[Aneninen]

@Chevre

It was asked before what the case was on you. Thatswhy I pointed out my original question, that's all.
By the way, I don't see the logic behind the posts you choose in your summaries. However, I think it's neither a town-tell nor a scum-tell. Just weird.

Evilpacman does no scumhunting and I definitely don't like that.

[Aneninen]

Please, stop. I mean everyone.
Attack the posts, not the players. We're getting nowhere by this.
And yes, I'm naive.

By the way, Don Johnson, I must make this clear: "I don't like one's style/a certain post/an idea/a wagon/a claim/etc." =/= that one is a scum. If you're in a doubt, check where my vote is. However, it's possible that you didn't mean me by that part of your post.

[Aneninen]

Either I'm too dumb to understand them or the latest posts from Antihero and Evilpacman are noise.

Sorry for the short post, here's a pigeon:

[Aneninen]

Nice finch, Bert.

How about this one?

[Aneninen]

AND THOSE ****ING SH***Y DEAD LINKS ALL OF THOSE SHOULD **** THEIR ****ING MUTHA!

/me rage

[Aneninen]

Post 434: Aneninen, I just pick whatever I feel needs responding to. Do you suggest something else? I ask seriously, because my education of how to play here has been rough even though I've been here many years.

Sure, you can pick whatever you want. On the other hand it's strange that you haven't answered anything on that (fake?) DayVig shot, in 372. For example.

Posts 425, 438, and 470 from Aneninen; the emotion feels forced to me. Like he's scum and everyone around him is cracking and he's trying to insert himself into a mediator's position.

...or it's possible that I didn't understand the whole dispute but I thought that Antihero's emotional posts were mere over-reactions. Besides, right now I'm alone on a vanity wagon. Wouldn't be easier for me to put EvilPacman on L–1 or join another wagon if I were a scum?
Frankly, you're trying to make something out of nothing.

About BoonSkiies:

I'll agree that he hasn't done shit in this game, but it feels too much like a townie who is trying to stay with the game rather then a scum trying to lurk to victory.

I'm 100% agree with the quote above.

[Aneninen]

And we've all forgotten Reinoe because of his V/LA. But he's going to be back soon.
However, I'm not against a Chevre or an Evilpacman wagon. The Boonskiies wagon, in my opinion is a pile of shyt, I've already posted about that.

In my opinion, even

talking

about the theory of townblocks may alter the behavior of the townblocks. So, I'm absolutely against the topic. Talking about Pyschohistory to/with the people makes the Pyschohistry got false reads. And I'm an Asimov fan. ^_^

[Aneninen]

Before his V/LA started I had thought that he had been a scum. The lack of his posts doesn't change this, only his forthcoming posts can confirm or weaken this read.

However, mind my full post, please. I'm aware of the fact that there may be no Reinoe wagon at all. In this case I might join an Evilpacman or a Chevre wagon if we're running out of time. I'm not joining a Boonskiies wagon.

Of course – as always – new incoming pieces of information can and will change my vote.

[Aneninen]

BipolarChemist: can we have a Vote Count?

[Aneninen]

Okay, Chevre, tell us something.

VOTE: Chevre

That's L–1 now and that's the main reason for my vote.

i think the place we're most likely going to find scum is in:
[chevre, Aneninen, chaoslord54, BroodKingEXE]

What exactly are your arguments for this list?

[Aneninen]

Guyett!
As for your last two posts

Spoiler:

You have been pigeoned! TROLOLOLOLOLOL!

[Aneninen]

And now, a Malkavian-style summary about the players.
Don't take this post

too

seriously ^_^

Spoiler:

Reinoe

– Oh, Rudolph the red-nosed Reinoe, lynch Konowa yes-yes? No-no? Isn't it fastcinating that he's able to launch a fight with anyone, anytime, anywhere. I wonder if he had a mirror, would he call himself a scummy-yummie?

Straight From the Bert

– "Wait, I'll post later. I'll post later. I'll post later." Have I left out something?

Guyett

– Fake-Vig shot, fake-hammer shyt, 103 posts, plenty of drunken-hicks. At least, these are town-hicks, I think. He's even trying to use his scumhunt-radar even if it's unplugged sometimes.

Chaoslord

– So much effort has been put into a case against Reinoe so as to vote for Chevre. A peakpoint of the scumhunting logic, like wow!

Aneninen

– Does he do anything? Or is he only a talentless dadaist artist who missed his Space and Time?

Antihero

– Every community needs a real Drama Queen. Even if that Queen is a male. Better than nothing, I suppose.

Chevre

– Enough walls for a house. It would be a pity if that scummy-looking house would be wrecking balled by the Vogon Fleet, ain't it?

Misaka

– Little AniMisaka looks like a townie, acts like a townie, posts like a townie. Keep up the good work and one day I might believe you, okay?

Don Johnson

– Ooh yeah, experience meets brain meets self-confidence. He's the light in the eternal darkness even if the light bulb is missing.

Boonskiies

– Quick, agile and harmless like a little ground beetle. I hope he won't be squished by a 16-tons-weight too soon.

Konowa

– Well, it's hard to be a miller. No reason to lynch him, he may stay if he wishes. I doubt the scums would have the same wish. If not, the town would wish something... else. Life's tough.

Evilpacman

– Tid-tiririd-tiririt-tirididitidi- oh no, that's Tetris. Never mind, I like noise. In theory. However, sssssss, it seems to be a bit scummy noise. Not good.

BroodkingEXE

– Since when a fossil is a possible rule in normal games? What a pity, I liked his early posts indeed.

[Aneninen]

Broodking, and Antihero, I'm waiting for your summary.

[Aneninen]

Aneninen - this one's been a secret scumread of mine that's been simmering most of the game. his signal:noise ratio is remarkably low and i think the noise generation is more likely to come from newbscum. he's done a good job of keeping in with the popular opinions and never seems to stick his neck out. the most recent reads list here also looks like a scum's reads list with opinions missing on some major slots (me, bert, chaos, boon).

Antihero, Bert, Chaos: basicly unsorted (though, the more I read Chaos the scummier he seems to be). These three are may be scum or town too; some things are fishy while others are townish. Boonskiies is town in my opinion, I've mentioned that before.

I was voting for Reinoe for a long time, even if when I was alone in that wagon. I joined the Chevre wagon because he seems to be scummy (though, not as scummy as Reinoe) and because I think there will be no Reinoe wagon today. So, I'm not "keeping in with the popular opinions. (Also, even if it's not direcly associated with scumhunting I made a post about my opinion that "making townblock theories is sucks". Noone shared my opinion, lol.)

The post you've linked here was more like a joke than a real post, so, it only lowers the signal:noise ration. In this point, you're right. You know, many times I'm reading the forum but I'm either unable to figure out a viable read on someone or I get a useful thought but it has already posted by someone else. Should I post "No idea", "No idea", "Yes, I agree", "Yes, I agree" all the time? I think not.

Of course, feel free to think that I'm a scum but, your arguments about me are not too good.

By the way, why have you kept me as a read in secret?

[Aneninen]

Not null; unsorted. Your style is annoying but mostly because of your style I can't decide whether you're a scum or a town.
Observation? In this game? Oh come on, we're all observing each other, all the time! That's the backbone of Mafia.
And in my case, trolling around lololol!
Do you want a pigeon?

[Aneninen]

I need to sleep, I'm having a busy day tomorrow. Antihero, let's continue this talk tomorrow. Frankly, it started to get interesting.
Meanwhile Argentina won. Well, that's even easier for Germany! After 24 years the Nationalelf is winning, I daresay! ^_^

And yes, I know that my timing is incredibly scummy right now.

[Aneninen]

Good morning everyone! We all should have some quark and leek for breakfast and please, no bacon this time. ^_^

Broodking, 645: not Nightkilling Konowa is a well-known example of WIFOMpossibilities™ (URL here: http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... ucts%C2%AE). I know it's only my intuition but consider this: if Konowa were scum he wouldn't have killed Reinoe, that would have been really dumb. Therefore, the scums Nightkilled Reinoe because they hope we're going to lynch Konowa next. So, I would suggest that we should ignore Konowa until we get new information on this topic.

Antihero: our conversation had been interrupted because the day ended. As far as I know I answered everything.
However, I have a question. Why did you unvote Chevre in 592? Because "you were not ready?" Hmmm... Originally you were the third one on that wagon. By that time it was pretty unsure that the wagon would reach L–1 later. Were you scared that your innocent-looking bussing could lead to a lynch? In 613 you mentioned that you would do a reads list and use the hammer but in your list (625) you wrote this:

"Chevre - his last couple posts are the towniest he's been all game. he may flip scum but i doubt it."

This is FoS at least!

By the way, the latter might be important:

@mod: you had left out Antihero's name in the final Vote Count of Day 1. (640). He was not voting at that time.

Startfromtheheart, eg. 647: good points about Chaoslord. I want to add something else here. His case against Reinoe was this: 580 which I found poor. (Basicly, it was a kind of paraphrasis of others' arguments.) However, he voted on Chevre later a situation in which he hadn't been forced to do so. The latter fact is townish for me while the others are scummy, including the soft-defense mentioned by BroodKing. All's put together,

Chaoslord is still FoS.

(Especially since Reinoe was voting for him and Nightkilling Reinoe, in my opinion, was about producing the WIFOM mentioned above.)
By the way, that Day1 starter randomization is funny but it's hardly an argument, pretty please.

I'd add a third

FoS, EvilPacman

. I thought during Day1 that he was scummy and he was not on the Chevre wagon. Okay, he was away but, arriving back one hour after the hammer well, it does have some probability but what if he was been here but didn't dare to defend Chevre (which might have looked scummy anyway)? I know, this read is a bit intuitional but it still exists.

[Aneninen]

La wow!
It has taken only one minute to read my post?

Oh, no-no-no-no-no-no-no, call me an OMGUS, but that helped me choosing between my FoS's.

VOTE: Antihero.

OFF: by the way, does anyone know how do we pronounce WIFOM? Is it

wee-fom

or

wai-foam

? I'd vote for the latter one.

[Aneninen]

haha

yeah, this can hang

VOTE: anenien

Your post 662 might be okay, but the one I've quoted now appeared one minute after my previous post. ONE MINUTE! Don't try to convince anyone that one single f---ing minute was enough to (1) read my post, (2) get to the conclusion that "yeah, this can hang" and (3) make the post itself. That. Is. Simply. Not. Possible.

[Aneninen]

You simply make no sense. I've answered everything about myself. You've never detailed the case against Misaka. So, 663 literally equals nothing + nothing which is nothing.

@others

No, I'm not defending Misaka. I've just simply wanted to point out that Antihero hasn't provided a viable case against them and cares the possibility of a Misaka+Aneninen team as a well-known fact. But that "fact" is based upon nothing.

Back to

@Antihero

, there is one more peculiar thing about that 1-minute theory. How the heck did you know that I'm here and about to post? The previous post from Startfromtheheart was at 7:17, my one was at 9:27. And you were online, nearby, etc. for thaaaat long hoping that I'm going to post something which you can get a so-called scumread on. No, I won't fall for that.

Besides,

Spoiler:

You have been pigeoned!
TROLOLOLOLOLOLOL!

[Aneninen]

What's the case?

This.
You started the day with 4 scumreads. They were merely names, no additional info:

[epm/fakegod] + [anenien/broodking]

You went on with the following post. There were no arguments behind the statement. (Yes, you had posted your reasons on my scumread yesterday but I answered your posts.)

i would guess fakegod/anenien
fakegod would have the balls to think he can still lynch me and anenien is still scummy for the reasons i said yesterday

Then you "happened to be on at that time", regardless of the fact that the forum had been quiet for more than 2 hours. You read my post, made a conclusion that it made sure your read and posted in ONE MINUTE.

Seems legit.

Not really. It's f---ing not legit.

For latecomers:

check out the time of my post: 659 and his post: 660. Check out the lenght of my post and the contents of both posts as well.

Besides, you've been ignoring the lynch of Chevre (who was a scum) and the Nightkill in your arguments. As far as I've experienced so far, whenever a new day starts, townies tend to talk about the lynch, the nightkill, the Votes... Ignoring all these topics is scummy in itself.

[Aneninen]

Why do you think so?

[Aneninen]

Everyone who thinks voting on me is a good idea:

Please, re-read the thread from 659 to about 674.

Frankly, after THAT part thinking that I'm scum is so dumb as if all of you were living in the same country as me. (YES, that was a serious offense!) On a 1–10 scale the ignorance I'm experiencing towards my posts is approximately 37. Until it drops to at least 8, I refuse to take part in this conversation. At L–1 I'm going to claim but apart from that, for such a town I don't think any kind of communication is worth the effort.

[Aneninen]

I'll tell you where it goes. Nowhere, or in worst case, to a mislynch.

Since it seems that I'm the only one who can see this wagon is poor at real arguments, I'm the only one who thinks that many pieces of information having provided by me in my Day 2 posts have been ignored, my growing unwillingness to go on with this discussion is not a surprise. I can fortell that maintaining this topic all I can get are tags like "VI defense", "newbscum gameplay" and things like those – regardless of my answers. I can also fortell the forthcoming words as well: "flailing", "WIFOMizing", "misrepresenting". Fankly, I'm sick of this phenomena. (It also exists in IRL Mafia games but, there a Day phase like this lasts for 3 minutes tops.)

Let me expain it by elaborating one single thing. Case:

"someone was bussing Chevre and it was Aneninen."

(1) I've told the reason why was I voting for Reinoe in 527; also mentioning that I might join a Chevre or an Evilpacman wagon if the Reinoe wagon went nowhere.
(2) I voted for Chevre in 587, putting him on L–1.
(3) Posted a funny summary in 610. However, there

were

some

real

bits in it. Eg: thinking Reinoe, Chevre and Evilpacman are scum.
(4) Started an argument with Antihero in 630.

For me, something seems to be logical. If I were Chevre's scum partner
(1) I wouldn't have voted for him so as to put him on L–1.
(2) I would have jumped off the wagon after his summary (588), simply saying something like "hmmm... I'm not sure about this wagon right now". (Hint who were the players who had jumped off that wagon?)
(3) I could have put back my vote on Reinoe after this post of him: 593 (so as to let you call me a stubborn player), or as a worst case scenario change my vote to Antihero as our argue started (to gain an OMGUSnewb tag or something like that).

None of these things happened.

However, if you are having an interest in my wagon, I'm pretty sure that you can "U–pipe" these arguments as well. (U–piping: misusing arguments to prove the exact opposite out of the same things.)

Still, feel free to go on with my wagon; but on Day3 you all really should examine whose interest it will have been to push this wagon.

[Aneninen]

If chaos is scum, Broodking is probably the final scum. Soft defense of Chevre in post #479 when the Chevre wagon was at it's lowest and the votehop off of chaos to Anen was pretty crappy too.

As for Broodking, I've already told it that the case on me was exceptionally poor. If I named a scum from that wagon, Broodking would be the best bet. Though, there were pretty much ad hoc votes there, whilst my early-Day-2 posts about reads on several people have been generally ignored so far.

[Aneninen]

@Broodking

: I don't think I'm focusing on smaller details than the arguments provided against me. There were the following things provided by me against Antihero: (1) leaving the Chevre wagon (2) his later post in which he gave Chevre a towntell (3) giving away 4 scum names when this Day started with no reasons (4) giving a reaction for my long post in 1 minute (this post included a vote too) (5) assuming a possible Misaka/Aneninen scum team and the fact that Misaka is coaching me (Misaka and me haven't had too much contact in the chat)

These are five things. Also, Don Johnson pointed out (more or less) (1) and (2) too.

[Aneninen]

@Broodking

– ???
It was Antihero who brought up and went along with the idea of a Misaka/Aneninen scum team (examples: 651, 663, 670). We've hardly talked to each other so far, so for me, it seems to be nonsense. Also, as Guyett pointed it out, we wouldn't have bussed Chevre on Day1 if we were scums. Also, if Misaka were couching me

would

I start a fight right in the beginning of Day 2 before they post anything? After all, I'm the newer player – shouldn't I have listened to their coaching in this case? ^_^

As for the "reading in 30 seconds". I've tried it myself later (scrolling to a new post in another thread, reading it, thinking about the answer, reading the answer) and it didn't work in 1 minute. I even shown a half as long text to my sweetheart (in our native language, the topic of the text was named by me) and told her "form an opinion while or after your reading" – even that took more than 1 minute. (No, she didn't know what the point of this experiment was.) So, I still think that piece of information relevant.

[Aneninen]

Not quite sure... I think it might just be an honest translation mistake as I think Anan is Hungarian tight? Maybe English isn't his first language and he just phrased that statement badly.

Yes, I'm Hungarian. Sometimes I do misuse phrases, especially when (1) I'm very tired or (2) I read something in German before posting. If both, I tend to create silly sentences.
I don't have a strong read on Misaka. (

That was a question which in a different post appeared has.

<––– I did that terrible word order on purpose. That's how German works, lololol!)Their posts are short and (sometimes) sparse. I didn't really understand their vote for me, nor for Broodking later. (Though, I think it would be AtE to call them scum just because they voted for me before.)

[Aneninen]

BroodKing

, I've read your question. But, since I'm pretty busy now, the answer may appear later.

[Aneninen]

Basicly it's a

LA

.
This week is thrice as busy than I've thought and I don't want you to wait for posts which may never arrive in time. Sorry.

[Aneninen]

UNVOTE: – not having might not be able to read the recent/forthcoming things make this vote pointless.

[Aneninen]

*not having AND might not be able to.
FCK, that's what I'm talking about as for being too busy and being in a hurry.

[Aneninen]

@Guyett

: I don't really understand what did you want to prove with that vote analysis. However, I think I found something strange. The Chevre wagon was originally started by Startfromtheheart (Bert), he left it for Reinoe in 243, rejoined it in 280, left it in 361... and never joined it again.

@Startfromtheheart

: It's about the thing I've mentioned above

plus

the fact that you keep reposting your random table from the very start of the game. Plus, your recent vote for me without providing any content. I think you owe us an explanation.

@Konowa

: I don't think Don jk'ed me last night; as far as I can remember I wasn't on his scum-list.

@Everyone

: It's strange that neither Konowa nor Chaos got nightkilled. Either one of them (or both of them?) are lying or it's a pure WIFOM produced by the scums and they want us to lynch them sooner or later.
However, the tracking of Chaos is correct: I didn't visit anyone last night. So, noone shall be surprised by this claim: I'm a Vanilla Townie.

Just one more thing about Chaos which might confirm that he's telling the truth. If he

were

a scum, providing a fake-tracking about me would be risky: if I

had

a role with a targetting ability I would know instantly that he's lying!

Also, something about Don_Johnson. I've tried finding a softclaim by ISO-ing his posts. If he had softclaimed he should have used the letter

J

, which is really rare in English. It has been easy to check all the J's in his posts but, I have found NOTHING which might have been a softclaim.
This means... (1) either the scums were dumb and lucky by Nightkilling them (2) or

they must have a rolecop

! If (2) is true, that may explain why Konowa and Chaos are still alive.

I know that I'm not the smartest player on this forum but I hope that at least the latest bit helps.

[Aneninen]

Anen is not clear because of your track...

True, because only one of the scums preforms the Nightkill. On the other hand, it still counts as a read. Even if someone doesn't believe me, it should be considered that (1) the track read shows that I have no role with targetting (2) it makes less likely that I'm a scum.
In short: I think right now, i'm a "we can still do that" Lynch/Nightkill. (I mean, if you still think that I might be a scum but you're all unsure, lynching me would be good for not losing a town PR while Nightkilling me by the scums would be good for a sure hit, since no Doctor with a little common sense would prevent that.)

@Guyett

: Yeah, VC analysis IS useful.
For example: Antihero was leading the Chevre wagon for a long time, jumped off in 375 so as to vote for EPM. Went for Bert in 437, back to Bert 4 posts later (!), returned to Chevre in 521. Left that wagon in 592. His Day 2 started with voting on me, then came a drama with a self-vote and finally it was he who hammered Misaka. Well, okay... that pattern makes no sense as a scum (as a partner of Chevre), but makes no sense as a townie as well. Has anyone got an idea about this?

I tracked Anen because of the whole back and forth between him and Anti in D-1 and a little in D-2. He also seemed to be one of the people that was under most people's suspicions so I was hoping by tracking him maybe it could lead to the idea of pushing forward with lynching him through being scum or to maybe help support the Anti is scum wagon by proving that Anen is town. I felt either way it gave us someone a little more solid to lynch.

This explanation looks genuine. However, I don't agree that proving town-alignment means that Antihero's a scum. See above!

One of Konowa or chaos has to be scum I think =\

Not true. The more I think about it the surer I am that the scum team has a Rolecop. That explains the Nightkill of Don_Johnson (the Rolecop must have targetted him at Night1) and the fact that both Konowa and Chaos are still alive. You can read about this in my previous post: I tried to find a softclaim from Don_Johnson and I found nothing. (If there had been a softclaim, the scums might have de-crypted it somehow.)
Also, if Chaos were a scum, it would be risky to give a fake-track read since I could have had a town PR and could have caught him lying immediately. If he were a Mafia Tracker how could the scums benefit by

publishing

his reads? Again, what would happen if he FOUND a town PR for real...? (I mean, in this case he might have tracked Don_Johnson at Night1... but, why did he claimed tracker only to provide NO tracking info afterwards?)

The latter answer goes for CherryDog as well: I don't think any of the claims are scum. I'm almost sure that both of them are real.

@Bert

: you haven't answered my question about your voting pattern nor about voting for me without providing any pieces of information yet.

[Aneninen]

??? – where have I been suggesting town roles?
I'm only saying that there must be a Mafia Rolecop and talking about previous claims. How exactly does that WIFOMize the game?

However, your latter sentence is absolutely true, we should keep that info in mind. (But, if Antihero were scum why would have suggested that? Wouldn't it have been easier not saying anything and simply Nightkilling Don?)

[Aneninen]

Anen's alignment depends on Anti I think.

Why? Though I too find Anti scummy.

also, don got nked because he was never ever getting lynched...

Whut??! How the fork does that make sense??!!

My opinion is that Chaos has been seeming more townie over the last few days and Konowa more and more scummy.

I think both of them are town. (See my previous posts for explanations)

I've been WIFOMizing the game much more than anyone else, but that's because I haven't really had much to say - got a lot of distractions going on outside the site which should be much better in a week or two. I don't think I've really provided any good info in this game so far, so you could have pointed that out on D1, D2, or D3.

...and you all call me a fluffy and a content-less one? Take a look at Bert. ^_^

A situation I'm rolling around in my head is that Anti kept jumping off the Chevre wagon thinking it was never going to take off, but suddenly Chevre is L-1 for the second Chevre wagon and he gets lynched on accident.

Yes, I was talking about that vote pattern for a while during Day2 but somehow most of you ignored that. (By the way, the lynch was not an accident. it was Guyett – therefore I have some major town reads on him anyway.)

As for Chevre's walls, they indeed were to give us a headache. They were "so-called-answers-for-random-selected-bits" or how can I explain that.


VOTE: Antihero – not only because of the start of Day2 with that "less-than-1-minute-reply". I find your recent posts scummy too (an example has been given above). Plus, your crusade against accepting Don's opinion during Day2!

[Aneninen]

Can anyone explain to me why scumAnti would unvote EPM when he was at L-2 and then go back to the Chevre wagon and get FakeGod to vote Chevre if he is scum with Chevre? He unvoted at L-1 with Chevre claiming Vanilla to get reads out. Chevre was getting lynched, no doubt. Reads come out, Guy hammers. Where is the scum intent?

Hmmm... it's not that you've explained but your post has made me re-check his votes. If he were scum he would have jumped off the Chevre wagon

before

the wagon reached L–1. He would have had plenty of time for that and he had been online, therefore opportunity too. He could have joined any other wagon or started a new case (eg. the case against me) much earlier.

UNVOTE:

Also, Anen you're being way too gullible in regards to chaos. If chaos is scum who fakeclaimed tracker of course he is going to have to risk faking results.

Am I gullible? I don't think so, unless...
...let's assume that scums

do

have a Rolecop. Chaos targets Don and gets lucky by finding a PR. He knows that he might not be that lucky next time, fake-claims tracker, says that he investigated Reinoe (no risk has taken by doing this). He targets me next, posts his "tracking" that I was doing nothing (knowing that I'm VT, he hasn't have to take any risk again).

Hey, everyone!

Does my theory make sense?

@CheeryDog

: Guyett is most probably town, in my opinion. He was the one who hammered Chevre, wasn't he? How would that have make sense if he were scum, on Day1?

@Broodking

: the same answer goes for you as for Konowa, see above! (referring to 1045)

@Guyett

, 1046: ??? Do you think that my random vote on Boonskiies is a scumtell because a wagon emerged on him afterwards? Sorry, that's bullshyt!

@EvilPacMan, ChaosLord

: what's the case against Konowa again?

[Aneninen]

Oh My Gods. Sometimes I'm so "slow-minded".
We should not have asked why Chaoslord tracked Reinoe and me. We should have asked why he didn't track Konowa.

[Aneninen]

I was thinking.
Since we have no better option, I'm going to take the lead of the town.
I know that you can't be sure about my alignment but at least, due to the tracking you can consider me almost 100% town (regardless of Chaos's alignment). In addition: it's clear that I can't have any night-action PR (by the way, other kinds of PRs would be highly unlikely too, see later) which means I'm expendable as well.

The logic about why my VT claim was true:

Spoiler:

There are the following possibilities:

(1) Chaos is Town Tracker and I'm VT. Nothing extra-ordinary in this case. I still might have a PR with no night target ability or it might be possible that I didn't use my ability at Night2. In both cases I would stfu and wouldn't tell you that I'm expendable. (Unless I'd be an X-shot Bulletproof but we all wish I were one.)

(2) Chaos is Town Tracker and I'm scum. The original setup is most probably 10:3. (There were no multiple Nightkills and 9:4 would be absurd.) One Mafia Goon is down. Amongst the other two there must be a Rolecop: Don't Nightkill is only logical if they

knew

who he was or at least they knew that he was targetting someone before. As Bert wrote it in 1016, the standard procedure is that one of the scums performs the Kill while the other one performs the Night Action. In both cases if I were scum, I would have done something and Chaos would have known about it. His "no action" read would have been possible only if my scum partner had performed both the Kill and the Targetting. This could be possible if my partner were the Rolecop, but in this case I'd stfu instead of trying rolefishing the scum group. In short, (2) is not entirely impossible but very unlikely.

(3) Chaos is Scum and I'm VT. That's an interesting version. In this case he may be either the Mafia Tracker or the Mafia Rolecop. The sequence of the events could have been the following. Night 1: Chaos tracks Don. Day 2: he claims Tracker and says he tracked Reinoe (there's no way to confirm or contradict this). Night 2: Mafia kills Don (either they knew he was a Jailkeeper or they only knew that he had a PR). Day 3: he makes up his tracking about me. That may be risky

but

, telling that he tracked Don would have been way too suspicious. So, he takes the risk and makes up a name. He's lucky because without having a PR with Night-targetting I can't counterclaim him. I think (1) is more likely than (3) but, the fact that he haven't tracked Konowa yet makes (3) more probable. (If I were a Tracker I'd have been tracked Konowa during Night1. It's still possible that Knowa doesn't perform an action – though, if the scums indeed have a Rolecop, that's not too likely, see (2)! – but, as for Millers, a Tracker can get more info about them than a Cop, since the Copread is useless.)

(3/2) Both Konowa and Chaos are scum. A weird idea but it's not impossible. That would explain why didn't he track Konowa and if they bus each other effectively, none of us will consider the un-lynched one out of them after the other one will have flipped scum... or would we? ^_^ By the way, if (3/2) is true my alignment is town, yet again. (There can't be three living scums.)

(4) Both Chaos and I are scum. In this case faking tracking me would be nonsense. We'd know that Konowa's claim was real and he could have lied that he checked Konowa's claim with the tracking (regardless of his real target, Chaos' possible roles if he's scum are detailed under (3)). This version is impossible in practitce, I think, and not only because I would have advised Chaos to track Konowa (or f-ck, anyone else but me). If we were both scum, there could be an investigate role on the town side as well. If a "real" town Tracker targetted me later and got a positive result, it would be pretty much game over for us. (See (2) for details, especially the "one scum Kills, the other one performs the action part. If a Cop gets a "scum" read on me after targetting, the situation is rougly the same, though there would be a slim chance that Chaos got away with the story.)

Conclusion: I'll examine everything thorougly as soon as I can. Feel free to point out if my logic in the forthcoming posts are wrong but, until we have a 100,00% confirmed town player, you should trust me. Even if I'm not the smartest player on the forum, I'll try to do my best.

[Aneninen]

So, my reads with marks.
1 – very town
2 – lean town
3 – null, unsorted, unable to read or inconclusive
4 – lean scum
5 – very scum

Spoiler:

CheeryDog

(previously Boonskiies)
Towntells: Boon was the first name on the Chevre wagon. Cheery was away from the Misaka wagon. In general, his posts are not essentially scummy.
Stumtells: 1007: he says that I'm rolefishing and doesn't answer my question about it later. (Indeed I was rolefishing BUT the scum side, not the town side!) General inactivity about scumhunting (though, this plus not voting in the end of Day2 might be an ignorance-read too).
Others: Boon's early posts may be newb-tells. He failed to catchup later, that might be a null.

Mark

: 2

BroodkingEXE

Towntells: Early meta-reading (even if it's not too informative). His scumhunting seems to be genuine.
Scumtells: Not too much. However, he's given away merely 2 votes (both on Day2) so far, which is strange.
Others: As far as I see, he keeps asking questions and doesn't gets answers. Why?

Mark

: 1

ChaosLord

Towntells: First of all, his Tracker claim, if it's real. Sure it may be fake (see my previous post, this post or other players' posts about it) but one thing bothers me considering it fake. Why did he claim on Day2 with tracking Reinoe? Wouldn't it have been easier to wait for Day3? Eg. he could have chosen from more dead players to give away uninformative tracks... He voted on Chevre on Day 1. Even if he didn't give an explanation for that (as far as I saw) it would have made no sense if he were Chevre's partner.
Scumtells: His case on Reinoe on Day1 was shyt. His claim happened in an inappropriate moment, I think. (There was no wagon against him and he provided no info by that.) His jump on the Misaka wagon was awkward. 980: that's not true. Antihero used to lead a wagon against me but later he abandoned it. There would have been a better track than me, I suppose. What if he tries to buddy me? (Though I can't see any reason for that choice.)

Post-edit

: Yes, that's it, BroodKing! I haven't wanted to talk about it but a Tracker+Cop+Miller setup would be imbalanced. Yet another thing which makes me think that Chaos's faking. (Why haven't I wanted to post about it? Call me a noob but I thought it would have been town-rolefishing.)
Others: The more I read his posts the more I think that he's scum. Still, what if we're wrong? We shouldn't lynch the Tracker in this case. How can I say, I wouldn't suggest lynching him today because the loss might be detrimental. Maybe tomorrow. Prove me if I'm wrong.

Mark

: 5

EvilPacMan

Towntells: Not many. Contentless posts.
Scumtells: 396 may be a soft defense on Chevre. 738 (reading Reinoe who had been dead by then and admitting that it even confirms his truth in 742) is very FoS. He was not on the Chevre wagon but was on the Misaka wagon. His recent turn against Konowa is another FoS. (He voted for him in 1047 and Chaos followed him in the next post. WTF?) 1089 about Konowa is bullshyt. His answer for my question in 1090 is the latest scumtell. Check out Cheery's answer later! There's a big difference between

why should he check a claimed role

(Cheery) and

why should he check him if he knows he's scum

(EPM)
Others: What do you think about a Chaos/EPM scumpair?

mark

: 5

Antihero

Towntells: The Chevre wagon. He was the one who jumped off it

but

, he had plenty of time and opportunities to leave that wagon earlier. I've already written about it. (And remember, I had also considered that a scumtell before I checked his vote pattern.)
Scumtells: Hammering Misaka. His sick case against me (plus, I still don't think that he was able to read my post and to respond it with a vote in one minute). His flip-flopping during Day2 (others were talking about that too).
Others: By ISO-ing him I've ignored his emotional posts. (I don't know whether it's a mistake.) As for him I'm at a loss. He's been pretty inactive Today, I wonder what his next posts will be.

Mark

: 3

Guyett

Towntells: Pushing and hammering Chevre (regardless of that fake-hammer, I consider it as a null). I still don't understand why he voted on me (PoE?) but his vote for Misaka seems legit (that vote from Misaka in 817 was awkward). 890: I like this (I've realized it just now, ISO-ing everyone.) In general, active scumhunting.
Scumtells: Not many. Maybe the fact that his Vote Analysis-es are long and either uninformative or I don't see the logic in them.

Mark

: 1

Startfromtheheart

Towntells: Very little content but at least, some scumhunting and pointing out things like about Don in 862. Or eg. 1065.
Stumtells: Not voting for Chevre and this post: 686 makes no sense. Re-quoting his own random reads makes no sense as well if he's town.
Others: He's aware of his inactivity and "content-lessness". This, in itself is a null.

Mark

: 3

Konowa

Towntells: Yes, an instant Miller claim is one of the possible gameplays. (Though, it can be faked of course.) His votes make sense in general. Mostly
Scumtells: However, sometimes his FoS-es are silly. (Eg. BroodKing).
Others: He claimed earlier Miller and Chaos claimed Tracker later. Chaos may also know that a Tracker+Miller+Cop setup could be broken (and a Miller without a Cop seems to be a bit "bastard" for me). So, there is a chance that the Miller claim is the fake one. Yet I think Chaos looks scummier. On the other hand, mislynching a Miller is not as bad as mislynching a Tracker. What do you all think?

Mark

: 3

VOTE: EvilPacMan – I'm ready to switch to ChaosLord later. Arguments are in the spoiler.

[Aneninen]

What do we need a town leader for? If one exists they aren't elected.

You're right, "leader" is not a good word. I used it only because it was used in assotiation with Don before.
The "one who tries to speed up things toward a scumlynch" would be a better expression.
Plus, that sentence was partly for myself as well. I tend to read things and make conclusions in my head – and to post shytty and/or only partially reasoned content about everything. I should not do it in a situation like this.

Everyone, feel free to prove me if my reads are wrong! (See my post above!)

[Aneninen]

I really doubt EPM is scum given his wagon was a counter wagon to Chevre D1

Chaos was away from both. Chevre was away from EPM. EPM was away from Chevre. I think these facts should be considered as well.

[Aneninen]

Chaos was on the lynch wagon...
But you're saying scum team is {Chevre, EPM, CHaos} and none of them were on the 2 leading wagons and none of them decided to bus until the very last minute?

Indeed. He was there. My bad.
I even pointed it out in my spoiler above and noted the very same thing about Chaos.
Next time I should not quickpost while I'm focusing on preparing my lunch instead of the game. My lunch won't lynch me for stupidity and I can't be sure about the players. ^_^

[Aneninen]

I think we should summerize the confirmed roles (by deaths), the claims (none of these are confirmed) and the possibilities (some of these have been discussed and/or pointed out by certain players before).

Confirmed

Chevre – Mafia Goon
Don – Town Jailkeeper
Reinoe – Vanilla Town
Misaka – Vanilla Town

Claims

Konowa – Miller
ChaosLord – Tracker
Bert (Startfromtheheart) – Bodyguard
Aneninen – Vanilla Town

Other possible roles

(

warning:

none of their existence is proven! I'm merely summarizing, not rolefishing the town side):
Mafia Rolecop or Mafia Tracker (reason: Don's death)
Cop (reason: There is a Miller claim. Caveat: the existence of a Jailkeeper is proven, there are other two claims on town PRs, having a Cop would be imbalanced.)
Mafia Roleblocker or Godfather or less likely another Mafia PR (beside the Rolecop/Mafia Tracker. Reason: if every claims were true there should be another PR for the scum side or the setup would be seriously imbalanced. Roleblocker counters Jailkeeper, Godfather weakens a possible Cop, especially if we indeed have a Miller. Caveat: that would mean too many roles. I think that's not too likely unless we have something funny eg. a "Pick your Power X/Y"-like game with randomly assigned drafts/choices/etc.)

@everyone

: my questions are:
(1) which claims do you think real/fake? Why?
(2) assuming that every claim is real, can we have a balanced setup here?
(3) if you chose a scum out of the players who haven't claimed anything yet, whom would you choose and why?

Needless to say, don't claim anything and don't assign names to possible roles (eg. PoopingPigeon can be the Cop because...)

Meanwhile, I'm reading the recent posts and answering them soon.

[Aneninen]

Catching-up wall ahead.

Spoiler:

1112
If there is a cop, they should claim so we can confirm that a miller's existence is valid. They should not claim today unless Konowa's lynch looks inevitable though. If Konowa survives to D4 it might be a good time for a cop to claim too, if they have at least 2-3 interesting good or results (ie not a bunch of dead players).

The Cop (if we

have

one) might claim tomorrow if some useful results can be provided. But, definitely NOT today. I don't see how this question is related to Konowa. Even if I consider it bastard-ish a Miller can exist without a Cop and having Cop+JK+Tracker+Bodyguard on the town side is very OP. (I've already written about this.)

1119
Yes, I'm stubborn. oh, and I'm a bodyguard. And I protected without even reading the game - i gave like 2 minutes look to ISOs with the recollection of someone mentioning a soft claim. i found the soft claim, and then - my choice was between don and chaos both nights (i thought gut-wise antihero looked like scum during night 1), and even though I started to doubt chaos starting Day 2, I bodyguarded chaos again Night 2.

I don't get it. What kind of soft claim are you talking about? Don didn't perform a soft clain as far as I know, I'd been searching for it a lot before. Chaos did a "regular claim", not a soft one.
Everyone, what did I miss?

Also, as far as I know there was no (soft)claim on Day 1 by Chaos, nor Don. During that day you never thought that Konowa was scum (nor that he had done a fake-claim). Why didn't you protect him?

Plus, am I right? Did you protect Chaos at both Nights?

(next post)
Unless there's a ninja which would make sense

Wait-oh.
Is Ninja considered normal at all?
It's not on the normal modifier list according to the Wiki. (Though, it's not on the not normal list either.)

1121
Let's see, does a cop always exist in a game with a miller?
Nope
Does a cop actually in anyway confirm a miller claim is true?
Nope.

I agree with you and I've already posted about this topic. Why are you sure that BroodKing is worth a vote for his post you've quoted? (You can find the same post in my post as well.)

1125
If you look through other games EPM has been in, you might notice that his way of playing is the usual way he plays as town. The last game I was in with him he acted the same way, I can link the game if need be¹
Also, how are my posts coming off scummy? Your argument on why Konowa is town is a little lacking as well.²

(1) Yes, please. I need every bits of information in my situation.
(2) I think I've explained everything in my long post. (To tell the truth, your mark was between 4 and 5 by that time, anyway.)
You're a bit paradox. I'm unsure whether your claim is real at all but, I'd be happy if I found a better scumlynch Today. Because, if we lynch you and you were/are the

Town

Tracker, that would hurt a lot.

who did you protect Bert?

He protected DJ on D1 and Chaos on D2.

Excuse me, what sort of stuffid conversation was this? Guyett: Bert wrote whom he had protected. BroodKing: either I'm reading his post wrong he protected Chaos at both Nights.

Also, if you haven't posted about the topic yet, don't ignore my questions can be found in 1127, please!

[Aneninen]

I'm a bit at a loss about your recent posts. Are you responding to BroodKing or to me?

I also can't find Chaos' Day1 softclaim you mention in 647 and here again. Perhaps it's my fault. I know I'm not the smartest player here but at least I'm TRYING since I can feel that I MUST.

[Aneninen]

No, it is not my first language. I think you've miswritten Brood instead of me. I use that expression many times and in many places. (Outside of Mafiascum as well.)

Why did you write the last sentence? You're way not the on the top of my scumread list. Or was that sentence for Brood again?

[Aneninen]

Also, where did Chaos softclaim on Day1? Please, answer that part too. Or have I misunderstood something again? (Yes, my posts tend to be shytty when I'm doing plenty of other things meanwhile, eg. the game linked below.)

[Aneninen]

Oh I see. I thought that softclaim = crumbing something like "need you make pigeons homing"? (=n.y.m.p.h.) My bad, I suppose.

[Aneninen]

I don't know. I can find a logical explanation why he survived Night2 but, wouldn't it have been logical if the scums had killed him Night1? However, Konowa must have known that this thing would come into our minds when he had claimed Miller.

What are your thoughts, EPM? Are the claims real? If not, which one(s) is/are fake?

[Aneninen]

I've been thinking.
The problem is that I think all of the three claims may or may not be true.

Konowa: I've already written about it before. Claiming Miller in the first post is one of the valid strategies. Fake-claiming might be risky; not only because of not getting Nightkilled at the first couple of Nights is a valid argument for calling the claimer scum later. It's also risky because we have an unknown setup: later flips and claims can greatly decrease the possibility of the presence of a Miller. As for this, both of these factors might be true for our situation...

Chaos: I've already written about this as well. However, here's one more thing. Assuming that he's the Tracker for real, he might have been at least a little bit suspicious about Konowa's claim on Day1. No such thing happened.

Bert: When I read his claim for the first time I had an intuition like "bullshyt, bullshyt, bullshyt". I can't explain why I felt that since I can find nothing in that post (nor in his later posts) which gives scum-wibes and I can't find a single proof how his claim (or his Night actions) might be fake.

Also,
what exactly the case against BroodKing is?
Who else can be scum besides the claimers?
I'm still waiting for many players' posts.

[Aneninen]

I think chaos is too new to catch any connections between trackers and millers, might not even have known what a miller is.

That is possible.
But, I think we've been talking a lot about Millers so far. He must have already got the point of that role. If not, he might have asked questions about it.

Also, am I the only one who thinks that EPM and Chaos are (soft) defending each other?

[Aneninen]

What is your problem with the part you've bolded? I don't get it.

[Aneninen]

"all of the three claims may or not may be true" what is the point of saying that? ¹

or asking "who else can be scum besides the claimers" without commenting on who you think is scum besides the claimers. anyone else could be scum outside the claimers, so that statement doesn't make sense.²

it's like you're asking us who is scummy outside the claimers so you can help lynch whoever we say³

I see.
(1) – perhaps it's the fact that English is my second language. I wanted to say the following: I'm unsure about all the claims. It's possible that all of them are true (real, genuine, etc.) but it's also possible that one or more of them are fake. I hope it's clear now.

(2) – I've posted my reads here: 1195. Though some of my reads has changed since that I still have the same read about many players. Also, check out where my vote is. It's on EPM who has claimed nothing yet. So, this point of yours doesn't make sense at all.
(Plus, if we lynched one of the players who has claimed something we could lose a PR if the claim was real. Thatswhy I'd prefer another lynch IF we found one. I've posted about this many times before as well.)

(3) – That's also not true. It's partly explained in (2) and it's clear that I'm pretty much unwilling to lynch BroodKing (thatswhy I asked what the case is against him) or Antihero (whom I suspected before but analysing his vote pattern revealed things which are contradicting his "scummy-ness".)

Think what you wish but you're searching scums at a wrong place now.

[Aneninen]

I haven't ignored your question. I simply gave an answer for that before. Konowa is not on my town list. I've wrote about this as well many times: it's possible that his claim is fake.
You told me that you would post a game about EPM in which he had the same gameplay as he has now. That haven't happened yet.
By the way, I keep in mind as well that Konowa is among the players who has given no reactions to my posts so far.

[Aneninen]

Can you link to me the posts then answering the question please Aneninen?

Here are my reads again. As for your question about the "why-s" I've added some edits and remarks (in italic.)

Spoiler:

Towntells:
First of all, his Tracker claim, if it's real. –

I've posted a lot about this topic since then. It's possible that it's real and also possible that it's fake.

Why did he claim on Day2 with tracking Reinoe? Wouldn't it have been easier to wait for Day3? Eg. he could have chosen from more dead players to give away uninformative tracks... –

Neither the claim nor naming Reinoe as a target would have made sense if he were scum.

He voted on Chevre on Day 1. Even if he didn't give an explanation for that (as far as I saw) it would have made no sense if he were Chevre's partner. –

That part is still true.

Scumtells:
His case on Reinoe on Day1 was shyt. His claim happened in an inappropriate moment, I think. (There was no wagon against him and he provided no info by that.) –

The last part in brackets, that's FoS. On the other hand, if he thought that Reinoe was scum his tracking made sense.

His jump on the Misaka wagon was awkward. –

You posted this: "Okay I'm going to abandon my EPM case for now and focus on Misaka because the switch on votes and the fact that there's been no word from Misaka as of late I call scum. " (Your former vote was EPM.) No case, no explanation, only jumping on. However, it might make sense if you wanted to put pressure on Misaka so as to make him post more. Is this true? If so, you've never mentioned it since then.

980: that's not true. Antihero used to lead a wagon against me but later he abandoned it. –

I meant this: "Which is starting to really make me question Anti who has been trying to run everyone against Aneninan most of this game". By that time Antihero abandoned my case. This part is still FoS.

There would have been a better track than me, I suppose. –

Eg. Konowa (to confirm his claim), Antihero, Guyett (as far as I can remember, you FoS-ed them at that time.)

What if he tries to buddy me? –

It's not true anymore, we can skip this ^_^

Post-edit –

Blah, blah, I edit this part. I've written a lot about the "which claim is real which is fake" part. I won't repeat that again.

Others:
The more I read his posts the more I think that he's scum. –

That was true at that moment. Right now I'm unsure. At least you're responding to my posts while Konowa seems to ignore them.

Still, what if we're wrong? We shouldn't lynch the Tracker in this case. How can I say, I wouldn't suggest lynching him today because the loss might be detrimental. –

And that part plays very important role in my gameplay. If there's an equal chance (according to our reads) for a scum-Konowa and a scum-ChaosLord, we should lynch Konowa because losing a Miller (if we mislynch) is still better than losing a Tracker. Or at least, I think so. But, lynching Konowa ONLY because that's still better if we perform a mislynch would be a seriously bad gameplay. Plus, I'd hate to see a policy lynch.

Also, I know you've mentioned that but you don't really give adequate explanation though imo on why you lean more towards Konowa as town a.k.a. him being a 3 on your reads list. If you have and I've just missed it then please link those as well.

To make it clear: there is no 2-digit-difference between you and Konowa any more. As I said before, I don't like that he's ignoring my posts. Second, there are things against him too and I've already posted about those. (Eg. why did he survive Night1 at all?)

Also, here's the link to the other game: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=57502

Thanks, I'll check that later.
Until I do that my vote will remain where it is. It's highly unlikely that anyone would try to quickhammer EPM in the near future. ^_^

The wording of your post isn't the problem, it's the fence sittings with opening yourself up to being suspicious of everyone.
I will wait for post 1195 to come around so I can see your reads. Very clever being able to know what post you're going to list them on in the future.

Aha. I can see what the problem is.
I made a post in which I explained why it's very, very likely (even if it's not 100% confirmed) that I'm town. This one: 1192. Noone has expressed any questions or doubts about that post (eg. "your explanation is FoS", "that proves nothing", "there are serious holes in your logic", etc.) so I thought that everyone accepted that my VT claim was real, true, valid. Given that I've thought that my claim was accepted by everyone, my gameplay has changed too.
I'm asking questions because I want to know which one of the claims may be fake and who else can be scum and I'm hunting for facts that might have been pointed out by you all and ignored or mis-read by me (also, I'm not afraid to admit that the situation is complicated), plus, I want to find answers which may be scummy. I know that this gameplay could appear fence-sitting. And I also know that we would know much more Tomorrow but, I'm simply afraid of lynching a town-PR.

I will wait for post 1195 to come around so I can see your reads.

That post will arrive but not in the near future. Sorry to say but I wanted to write that readlist today but I have a lot of IRL work to do. (And yes, I haven't known before that this week of mine will be much more busy than I thought before.)
Sorry everyone, I know that my timing about being busy is terrible. That's how my IRL life goes.

This post is everything I've been able to do now. Maybe in the evening (GMT +1) I might have time and brain for a more contentful post.

(Also sorry if I posted mis-quotes, unclear things, misinterpretations, etc. I'm in a hurry now.)

[Aneninen]

I'm trying to catch up as soon as I can. I've been working since my last post, please be patient.

[Aneninen]

UNVOTE: – There will be another post soon.

[Aneninen]

So, in short.

I really don't understand why some of you think that I may be a scum. I've already explained everything about the changes in my gameplay recently.

But, you're interested in my vote.

I still think Chaos is a bit scummier than Konowa. But, if we do the wrong thing and end up with a mislynch, losing a Miller is much less worse than losing a Tracker. And I disliked Konowa's last post. The "why isn't Konowa dead" is not a paranoia, it's a real question. Or at least, if I were scum I'd lynch a player who's confirmed town. (In that case I would know that Konowa's claim is real.) I have got no real answer for that.

It's L–1 isn't it?
Well, you can all call me an idiot, but

intent to hammer, Konowa!

[Aneninen]

I'm trying to catch up as soon as I can. I've been working since my last post, please be patient.

Nope, to much "I need to post, people are suspecting me", I'm not even sure there was anything currently being questioned for you to catch up with. Over the top activity in wanting town read.

Vote Aneninen

And can you tell me how exactly could I have known without having read the thread whether it had contained anything that I should catch up with?
Sorry to say, your vote s-cks hard.

I think I must repeat this part of a previous post of mine:

I made a post in which I explained why it's very, very likely (even if it's not 100% confirmed) that I'm town. This one: 1192. Noone has expressed any questions or doubts about that post (eg. "your explanation is FoS", "that proves nothing", "there are serious holes in your logic", etc.) so I thought that everyone accepted that my VT claim was real, true, valid. Given that I've thought that my claim was accepted by everyone, my gameplay has changed too.

It seems that not only the linked post but also this latter one were ignored by everyone. Due to this general ignorance it's no surprise that every votes and accusations are FoS-es in my eyes.

[Aneninen]

Sorry,

1092.

However, it's still strange that noone has responded to the original post. It took place 4 days ago...

[Aneninen]

1200
With your eager to post something attitude, you saw your name mentioned (skimming isn't hard when going for no-content I'll be here later posts) and assumed it was something bad for your alignment having lost one of your buddies already day 1

Read back the thread, please! I told in 1181 that I had been working since my former post. This means: I'll read your posts and respond soon. So, When I posted 1181 I hadn't read the new posts at all. How could I have known the contents of them at all?

Do you really think that I'm Chevre's buddy? I put him on L–1 in 587. How would that have made sense if I were scum?

1201
I can see Annnnn scum after the eagerness to hammer in 1186.

Intent to hammer =/= to hammer. Also, why is it a surprise if I intend to hammer someone who may be a scum according to my reads? (I wrote about that plenty of times before).

1202
It does seem like Anen just throws posts down to appear to be very active.

Or it's also possible that I simply don't have time for producing detailed posts.
Sometimes I can be very active because I have time sometimes I have very little time. Thatswhy I asked a couple of questions and brought up some topics to discuss about. I thought that as I had time I could catch up with your answers so as to figure out something useful out of them. Now it seems that it hasn't been working.

What now?

(If some of you're interested in another long read-post of mine, you can have one later, as soon as I have time for it. Though, I must admit the exact time of this is yet unknown.)

[Aneninen]

So.
I hope I'll be able to finish this post before I have to start my long, long day.

Some things need to be pointed out.
I made long posts about (1) why you can consider me a town (2) my reads (3) the claims, in connection with the setup and the possible scum PRs. As for the reactions to these I can distinguish three types of attitudes.

(1) Pro-town attitude: agreeing with my thoughts or using them to make up new reads (not really happened) OR arguing with them and pointing out things which may be wrong, inconsistent or hard to be understood. All of these show an interest in scumhunting in my eyes. (Even if someone thinks my posts are weak, they should point out why so as to prevent other townies being misleaded by them, for example.)
(2) Null: ignoring my posts. I don't think I should explain that, no information = no tell.
(3) Anti-town: trying to find scumtells in my later posts AFTER ignoring my long posts. Thing is merely about fudging my original questions plus driving the thread away from my long posts, as if they contained nothing useful. (This is =/= with starting a dispute about my reads, see (1)!)
I consider anti-town the phenomenon which I call "regardless of". When someone advocates a scumread on me but it's unchanged

regardless of

my posts – and regardless of the content says "you're scum". (Eg. No content? You're scum. Posting that you're town? You're scum. Accusing another player? You're scum? No posts? You're scum.)

The things above has GREATLY affected my reads. (Updates on 1095, answers for players included, see the other post too.)

Spoiler:

[quote="In post 1095, Aneninen"]So, my reads with marks.
1 – very town
2 – lean town
3 – null, unsorted, unable to read or inconclusive
4 – lean scum
5 – very scum

CheeryDog

(previously Boonskiies)
Towntells: Boon was the first name on the Chevre wagon. Cheery was away from the Misaka wagon. –

No matter what you think, this is still a towntell. A scum could easily join such a quickly-developing wagon without getting too much FoS.

In general, his posts are not essentially scummy.
Stumtells: General inactivity about scumhunting.

This has changed a bit since then.

You had a vote on BroodKing and admitted there is no real case against him. He was the one who started a case against me and ignoring my long posts, which is a typical (3): anti-town attitude. Also, so far the "regardless of" phenomenon is true as well.
Others: It's strange that you haven't even thought that being unaware of the fact my links are not working is a possibility. You know, I simply skimmed over some posts, since I had (and have) very little time. You're thinking that I'm pretending it so as to avoid producing real content. You may or may not believe but I'm not pretending this, I indeed have busy days. You should ISO me and read my posts assuming that I indeed have little time. Your thoughts may change. In spite of everything I think your posts are coming from a paranoid and a bit frustrated town, not a scum.
Answering your question "why did I put Chevre on L–1?": (1) I didn't like that he had chosen "random-looking" posts so as to respond to in his walls. It seemed that he had been pretending scumhunting. (2) I wanted to put some pressure on him and see whether his posting style/content changed.

Mark

: 3–4

BroodkingEXE

Towntells: No change (since my last long read-post)
Scumtells: No change.
Others: I still don't understand the case against him. Is there any?

Mark

: 1

ChaosLord

Towntells: The Tracker claim (if that's real, I've posted about this topic a lot), plus his vote on Chevre Day1. (It would have been silly if he were Chevre's scumpartner.) He started asking questions about my long posts and arguing my reads. He started defending EPM. Since EPM didn't think that Chaos might buddy-ing him it is possible that both of them are town. There were posts about it why they can't be scum together so this is a minor townread on EPM as well. (I think EPM would have "pumped up" Chaos's "soft-defense" somehow so as to protect his a$$ if he were scum.)
Scumtells: I gave an answer for your questions about my scumtells. Check that.
Others: He has been echoing the "Aneninen's latest posts are scummy" song lately. However, echoing =/= starting it. He might be affected by other players – some of these must be interested in taking out me or my thoughts out of the game. So, this attitude is not a real tell though it might change later. Overall, regarding of his latest posts I'm not that sure about his scum-alignment than I had before. This is partly an intuitional read.

Mark

: 3 (I'm still unsure about him.)

EvilPacMan

Towntells: Still not many.
Scumtells: See my previous read-post. His posts still contain very little content.
Others: He seems to be sure about his vote for Konowa. I've already answered why I intended to hammer Konowa. He may be uninterested in the game but may also perform active lurking. I still think he's a possible scum but he's not the first name on my scumlist right now.

mark

: 3–4

Antihero

He's on V/LA, my reads are unchanged.

Mark

: 3

Guyett

Towntells: Pushing and hammering Chevre (regardless of that fake-hammer, I consider it as a null). I still don't understand why he voted on me (PoE?) but his vote for Misaka seems legit (that vote from Misaka in 817 was awkward). 890: I like this (I've realized it just now, ISO-ing everyone.) In general, active scumhunting.

His recent posts are a bit contentless but still not scummy. Also, he pointed out something in my posts (which was silly).

Scumtells: Not many. Maybe the fact that his Vote Analysis-es are long and either uninformative or I don't see the logic in them.

Mark

: 1 (I think he's the strongest townread of mine now.)

Startfromtheheart

Towntells: He may be Bodyguard, according to his claim. but...
Stumtells: Not voting for Chevre! Re-quoting his own random reads make no sense if he's town. He had kept posting (almost) zero content till he got pressurized a bit (...and that wasn't a big pressure!). Than he changed. A Bodyguard claim when we know that we had a Jailkeeper? Plus, performing that claim at a silly moment (revealing a PR when he's way far from lynch?). He admits that he protected Chaos twice? First of all, noone can confirm or "counter" that action. Second, eg. in 870 he posted "Konowa seems town." He voted for Konowa only in 1157. Why didn't he protect Konowa at Night1 or Night2? If Konowa's Miller claim is real he may be a likely target for the Nightkill!
Also, his vote was on Chaos in 1120, on Broodking in 1139, on Konowa in 1157, on me in 1160. Back to Konowa in 1174, back to Broodking in 1191, than me again in 1207. WTF?! It's not only the flip-flopping. He also added many times that "I'm sure about this", "he's 100% scum" and things like that. It seems that he just wants to find a lynchable player regardless of their alignment.
Also, playing the language barrier card against me is a BIG FOS! It would be against the rules to explain it right now but it's FoS in my eyes and being sticked to it is an auto-scum read.
He's picking up small bits so as to boost any weak cases without content but with a big noise. This time I'm his target but as we can see it can change anytime, his khm, "cases" has short lifespans in general. Eg. I was town according to his reads in 1192 scum in 1207 (and he had a scum read on me before...)

Mark

: 5+

Konowa

Towntells: Yes, an instant Miller claim is one of the possible gameplays. (Though, it can be faked of course.) His votes make sense in general.
Scumtells: He ignored my long posts and started to scumread me, but, right after the Chaos wagon seemed to be stopped. Again, no real case against me.

Mark

: 4

In general, I think the global town attitude is greatly affected by the scums.
It's

possible

if you don't believe my logic about proving that I'm town but, it

would have been

okay

only

if any of you had pointed out holes in my logic.

It has never happened.

.
It's

okay

to ignore both my post about my alignment and my questions, reads, ideas. It's

not okay

ignoring all of those and calling me scums because of other posts with contain less content since I told that I had little time for playing right now.
What IS the case against me?
Trying to prove due to Chaos' tracking that I'm town.
Telling that I have no time for a next detailed post.
Telling that I'm going to catch-up because there was nothing to be catched up, though I admitted that I hadn't read the thread at that time.
Responding to the things above.

And yes, you can go on with the "regardless of your posts you're a scum" attitude. Tell me about it how town it is, ignoring my posts when I'M DOING something and making up a case about anything else.

VOTE: Startfromtheheart – since I have a REAL case against him.

[Aneninen]

Anen you have far too many scum reads...

I know and it bothers me. If I had managed to maintain a discussion about the claims (which one is true, which one might be fake) I would have been able to townread more players.

In general, I think the global town attitude is greatly affected by the scums.

that's the job of mafia

So. I'm surprised that many players have been ignoring my posts about (1) reads (2) proving my alignment and (3) trying to discuss about other players (and claims) and started FoS-ing (and voting for) me, therefore I conclude that the global town attitude is greatly affected by the scums. You says that it's the job of the mafia. Yet you keep advocating that I'm scum. You've just played another "regardless of" card.

Tell me about it how town it is, ignoring my posts when I'M DOING something and making up a case about anything else.

this is so far from reality

You've just played another "ignorance" card.

Thanks for your post, you've just managed to convince me that my scumread on you is correct.

[Aneninen]

Others: It's strange that you haven't even thought that being unaware of the fact my links are not working is a possibility. You know, I simply skimmed over some posts, since I had (and have) very little time. You're thinking that I'm pretending it so as to avoid producing real content. You may or may not believe but I'm not pretending this, I indeed have busy days.

Or you're not aware I did actually bothering already doing that, then making comment which pointed out the wrongness in the posts. (I expected them to be ignored)

Which were those posts which were reactions for my

original

post, apart from 1102 again?

I don't care about how busy your days are, everyone has varying levels of busyiness, what is not needed is to make comments about it.

So. Telling that I'm busy so as to make the situation clear about the amount/length of my posts is a scumtell. [sarcasm]Seems legit.[/sarcasm]

Boon was the first name on the Chevre wagon.
plus his vote on Chevre Day1.
Pushing and hammering Chevre
Stumtells: Not voting for Chevre!

Blahblah Scum wouldn't bus on Day 1!
I'm not convinced that scum has bussed on Day 1, and that my vote is in the completely correct spot.

Yeah, picking four sentences out of their context and misrepresenting them as if I had written that a scum had been bussed on Day1 is [sarcasm]definitely a townplay[/sarcasm].

What actually is a "regardless of" card?

If you had read my post thoroughly you should have known that.

I call it a "regardless of" card when someone has a scumread on a player and finds every posts of their suspect scummy

regardless of

the content of the posts.
Your recent posts about me are perfect example for the "regardless of" card.

[Aneninen]

I've explained why I believe it is a scumtell. You were not in a position that needed that explained.

And I've already explained that I usually tell "I'm catching up soon" when (1) I've been away from the game for a while (2) I've been away for a shorter time (a day or so) but the game is in a phase in which it's possible that much relevant content has arrived while I've been away. In this case the (2) happened.
I've also explained that I post "I'm catching up soon"

before

I read the new posts. Without reading the thread it's impossible to decide whether it's relevant.

I took them out to show others that you're clearly trying to make everyone on that Cherve wagon town, including yourself. You're pushing people on certain wagons like scum would never bus.

Yes, the Chevre wagon is

one

tell, but it's not the

only

tell.
However, you're right in one thing: I don't think Day1 bussing is a good strategy,

especially

if it leads to a scumlynch.
In general and in short: a successful Day1 bussing can indeed give a scum a lot of "town credits" but later events – eg. an investigation on the scum, a silly mistake made by him, mass-claiming, a confirmed town's reads, etc. – may make all that credit disappear into nothingness. And if so, the fact that the scum faction has 1 less people alive since Day1 can be detrimental for the scums. Maybe I'm wrong about this; though, my IRL Mafia experiences make me think this thing so.

[Aneninen]

Riddleton

: Wait-oh. In 1240 you asked Chaos whether he had tracked anyone else. However, he had posted in 980 that he tracked me. I find it strange that you skimmed over that piece of investigation.
Because,

Chaos' investigation has been the cornerstone of my gamestyle.

I explained in 1092 why you all can be almost sure that I'm town even if it's not a 100% confirmed thing. Noone has doubted

that

particular post yet. (If it had happened my gamestyle would have been entirely different.) This is important because all my posts since then were based upon the assumption that my VT claim is accepted by all. (I thought that

no doubt = agreement

because there were doubts about the other players' claims.) I mean the following: if my thoughts, questions or ideas are wrong, they should be subjects of discussion and/or correction but definitely should not be considered as scumtells.
In spite of the things above, some players started to scumread me due to

later

posts. That's what you can read on the recent pages. I'm sure that the one (or those) who started to call me scum is/are scum(s) or performing bad gameplay (by skimming over the post I linked above or by forgetting to explain why my logic is wrong).

[Aneninen]

That is true.
However, the fact that Don got Nightkilled is telling me that there must be a Mafia Rolecop/Tracker/whatever. Put it in this way: before Night2 started there were 2 claims, Konowa and Chaos. We may or may not have doubts about these claims but the scums

must

know which claim(s) is/are true. So, either Konowa or Chaos would have been a more beneficial kill

unless

they knew Don's role. I'd add: we know that town had a Jailkeeper and it might have a Bodyguard and a Tracker too. Even if there's a Miller as well, I'd find this setup unbalanced if there were no Mafia PR(s).
What's your explanation about Don's death assuming there is no Mafia investigative PR?

Also, mind this part as well (in 1092):

This could be possible if my partner were the Rolecop, but in this case

I'd stfu instead of trying rolefishing the scum group.

In short, [(2) is not entirely impossible but very unlikely.

– (2) is one of the four possibilities written there, namely: Chaos is town and I'm scum. (Just a reminder).]
I daresay, the underlined part remains true even if we read it without the first part of the sentence. Why would I speculate and launch a discussion about mafia PRs if I were one of them? You might answer it'd be a WIFOM but I think that would be a risky WIFOM, I mean, I'd take unnecessary risk by doing this.

Also, keep in mind that I wrote: "not entirely impossible but very unlikely". – I myself pointed out that

this

is the reason why my VT claim can not be considered 100% confirmed.
And there was a sentence at the end of that post:

until we have a 100,00% confirmed town player

, you should trust me.

– mind the underlined part. I've never said that you all

must

trust me at all costs; I only said that you

should

, until we have a more trustable player via confirms.

[Aneninen]

@MOD – Can we get some extra time pretty please?

[Aneninen]

You needn't apologize, it's hard to catch-up with that many posts. Thatswhy I recapitulated my logic.

My strongest scumread is Bert (Startfromtheheart). I'm not lynching Guyett or BroodkingExe's slot. I'm unsure about your slot.
What's your read on EvilPacMan and CheeryDog?

[Aneninen]

unvote;

Something I just noticed. chaos, what exactly was the return on your track of Anen? Here you say:

So I tracked Aneninan and I got that he

visited No one

and here you say:

For starters, this is the first time I have played tracker so when I got

a no results read

...

Can you please clarify?

That's important indeed. Chaos, please answer!

@BPC- /confirm that I got your terribly rude role pm. I forgot.

What exactly do you mean by that, Sthar8? (By the way how do we pronounce your name?)

[Aneninen]

Sorry that was a mis use of wording on my part. When I tracked Anen I got no results which made me assume he didn't visit anyone.

That can change many things.

@mod

or

anyone who knows the answer

: what kind of answer does a Tracker get if (1) he's roleblocked and/or jailed and if (2) their target is roleblocked or jailed?

Until this gets clarified somehow you should ignore my logic about my claim. Even if I repeat it: I'm indeed a VT.

[Aneninen]

What exactly do you mean by that, Sthar8?

BPC asked me to replace in. The role pm I received was not the one I wanted and lacked BPC's characteristic politeness so I teased him a little. This is not game relevant and you cannot determine my role or alignment from it; the sample role pm is on the front page and that makes any speculation here WIFOM to the point of uselessness.

Okay.

[Aneninen]

Which is more important: DO NOT vote on Chaos until someone answers my question. I'll explain everything later but now I'm in a hurry. If you want to vote for me, feel free to go 'till L–1 but don't lynch me before I post my explanation. Thanks!

[Aneninen]

Also, Chaos: what did you get for Reinoe?

No result

or

He visited noone

?
These are extremely important questions!!!

[Aneninen]

Chaos

: thanks for clearing the things.

It was vital because the answer

player visited noone

means that your investigation was successful. In this case my logic about my claim (I won't repost it now) is still valid.

No result would have meant that you were blocked. In that case the following sequence of events would have been possible:
Night 2
Don_Johnson: jails Chaos – successful.
Chaos: tracks Aneninen – unsuccessful. (No result.)
Aneninen: kills Don_Johnson – successful.

Of course, I still know that I'm VT but if you had got a

no result

the situation I mentioned above would have been possible and I would be unable to prove that it didn't happen (because you would have been blocked). So, if that had happen I should not be trusted anymore because as a scum I could use your mistake (mixing up

tracked noone

and

no result

) for explaining that I'm VT while I'm not!
Thatswhy I thought that if you had answered you had got

no result

, some players would have voted for me, because others might have realized the possible sequence of Night events I presented above.
Is that clear now? (Not only for Chaos but also for everyone.)

[Aneninen]

Also, this is

very

important!

Everyone!

What's your read on Bert (Startfromtheheart)?

I think he's scum but I may be wrong about him. If it gets clear that most of the players have a town read on him I'll remove my vote because in that case I think I have an idea what to do.

[Aneninen]

Riddleton

(and everyone): Chaos is most probably town. I think he simply hadn't understood the difference between 'visited noone' and 'no result' before it was explained to him. If he were faking a Tracker he'd have said that the investigation on me ended with a "no result" – in that case he could have turned my claim useless and my Day3 gameplay a pile of shyt. I would have been an easy mislynch for this day. Would he have missed such a great opportunity? ^_^

[Aneninen]

Riddleton, why exactly have your reads changed on me? (since 1262)

Konowa, have you read that part about Chaos' Tracking 'no result' / 'visited noone' ? What's your opinion about my thoughts? (Especially about Chaos' alignment?)

[Aneninen]

In 1262 you posted that you were believe me. What changed?

Also, I'm still waiting for your reads about EPM and CheeryDog. You've already posted that in your opinion Bert is town (if 1302 was an answer for him).

[Aneninen]

sthar, the thing about Bert's claim is it's so weirdly timed that it must be town. Let's puhleeeeeeeeease lynch Konowa

Bert's claim is a WIFOM, I think. Please, tell more about it why you think Bert is town.
Also, can you recapitulate your case against Konowa?
What's your read at Riddleton?

Anen what post specifically are you talking about?

What do you mean by that? Which post do you search for?

But bringing that type of thing up, I don't think we can rule out the chances of Don having actually jked you, there's very little interaction that has happened there.

No, it's not entirely impossible

if

Chaos gets a

visited noone

answer by investigating a JKed player. If he gets a

no result

, we can rule that out. I don't know tha answer for this question. (Remember, I was unsure about the answer Chaos gets if he's blocked/investigates someone who did nothing. On wiki I only found that "it's not recommended" to give a

no result

answer for a successful but "negative" (nothing happened) investigation.)
However, does it affect my logic at all? (I mean, the possibility that I could have JKed.)

Riddleton.
(1) You had me as your strongest scumread yet you voted on Chaos.
(2) You changed your read on me ("I believe you") and changed it back to "possible scum" later and you've never explained it.
(3) In 1304 you said "Chaos isn't a neutral read (

or wasn't

). In 1310 you said "Chaos was neutral". In 1315 he's your "biggest scum read".
(4) In 1297 I told you (and to everyone) that I have a strong townread on Chaos (due to that no result/visited noone misunderstanding – I think your answer in 1310 on this topic is flawed.) You've been still ignoring my questions about EPM and CheeryDog.

I think you want to go for an easy lynch thatswhy you vote Chaos, even if you contradict yourself. Why didn't you vote for me in the first place (when I was your strongest scumread) and why didn't you change your vote for me if you started thinking again that I'm a possible scum?
By the way, I didn't like 1259 either. What was that? An attempt for going for a "compromised mislynch" (or how could I define that)?

That's too much.

VOTE: Riddleton

[Aneninen]

Aha! There may be something more!

Everyone: what if Riddleton wants to get Chaos lynched because he's afraid that Bert is going to protect him again? After all, lynching the Tracker is worth more than lynching a VT so he wouldn't reeeeallllyyyy want to lynch me if he could lynch Chaos instead. That would explain the "Aneninen is scum but I'm voting for Chaos" logic. (Yes, in this case Bert would be town and my scumread on him is wrong. I admit.)

If you all agree, let's lynch Riddleton, that might clear Chaos and Bert somewhat, I suppose.

[Aneninen]

At Night1 they didn't know that he's a Tracker.
At Night2 they did, but they might have known that Don had been a Jailkeeper. If scums have a Rolecop. If not, I have no idea – unless they thought that they could call Chaos' claim fake later so as to lynch him. (However, I don't think that the "unless" part is likely at all.)

Do you think it would be a bad idea if Bert protected Chaos next night?
Do you disagree that Chaos is town? (Again, my argument in short: I don't think he mixed up "visited noone" and "no result" on purpose. If he were scum it would have been better if he had said in the end that the answer had been a "no result", not "visited noone". By the way, how the f-ck could have he expected that I was going to make a wall out of his investigation so as to prove my claim?)

[Aneninen]

Chaos, I understood it long ago. You got noone twice. Why did you quote that post of mine then?

[Aneninen]

Not exacly; we were talking about the possibility: "what if Don has JKed

me

?"

[Aneninen]

Silly British spellings.

Anen, why is this:

Not exacly; we were talking about the possibility: "what if Don has JKed me?"

even a concern of yours?¹ I am getting really paranoid about how much you are trying to shove your VTness down our throats.²

None of these are true.
(1) I answered Cheery about this topic and you can check it: I said that I didn't see why it was relevant at all.
(2) I only thought that I should repeat the most important parts because I experienced general ignorance (which, more or less, changed later).

What's your reads on Bert, EPM, CheeryDog and Chaos now? Have there been changes recently?

[Aneninen]

Do you think it would be a bad idea if Bert protected Chaos next night?
Do you disagree that Chaos is town? (Again, my argument in short: I don't think he mixed up "visited noone" and "no result" on purpose. If he were scum it would have been better if he had said in the end that the answer had been a "no result", not "visited noone". By the way, how the f-ck could have he expected that I was going to make a wall out of his investigation so as to prove my claim?)

He was apparently an obvious soft-claim. But then again, scum are actually less likely to pick up on those.
I only brought it up as it you had mentioned it earlier in the day and I had been rereading some of your posts

Also DV should and BPC should stop having the same avatar, I just tried to ISO you assuming that he was talking in third person.

Maybe you're right and I'm over-complicate everything.
Thatswhy I keep asking about other's reads. Who do you think the scum is? Besides me, of course (if you still think that so).

By the way, that's true: our mods should have different avatars.

[Aneninen]

My LA is about to start soon; I'll be from mobile so there will be shorter posts only.

Before that, here are a couple of things.

(1) Konowa, you're wrong. ^_^
Here's why: I asked whether it was a bad idea if Bert protected Chaos again because

I thought he would be the best possible target for him

. If I were scum I would surely have targetted anyone else but Chaos: I would have expected that Bert had protected him. Also, Chaos' investigation is the cornerstone of the whole "I'm VT"-logic. Why would I have been afraid of our Tracker at all? "Also-also", if Bert says that he protected Chaos, there

must

be a Mafia Roleblocker, as I thought and explained before. Wouldn't it be silly to speculate on Mafia PRs if I were one of them? ^_^

(2) Bert, I agree with Sthar8.

Claim your target!

Explain the Hammer too, please!
Actually everyone should give an explanation for their Riddleton vote. My one is in 1326 and 1327. In other words: I really thought that he was scum. After his flips it's clear that my reads were dumb and my posts about him look scummy – but, unfortunately, I can't say more but this: he was my main suspect.

(3) We could make an elaborate Vote Analysis, each Days and wagons included. That may reveal something. It's highly unlikely that I have time for doing it and it's impossible that I can make a detailed post about it in the near future but I'm going to try to do my best.

[Aneninen]

I'll start catching up tomorrow.
It will take some time anyway: I was checking the thread during my vacation every now and then – and my two main suspects are dead now.

[Aneninen]

I think, first of all, we should examine three things.

(1) Who derailed the Konowa wagon on Day 3? (I posted my intent to hammer and after that the wagon started to get empty.)

(2) Who pushed the Riddleton wagon? (I know we were out of time but still...)

(3) Who was on the Konowa wagon (when the lynch was achieved)?

So.
My answers are:
(1) Two players jumped of quickly: Bert and CheeryDog. (Bert voted for Broodking, CheeryDog for me next.) Bert is dead, he was indeed a Bodyguard.
(2) Konowa, Chaoslord, Aneninen, CheeryDog and Bert were on the Riddleton wagon. Chaos and Riddleton are dead, both of them flipped town PR. Konowa is dead, he flipped scum.
(3) CheeryDog and Aneninen were not on the Konowa wagon. (And Konowa himself, of course.) Aneninen was V/LA.


Conclusion. It's lucky that it seems that you believe my VT claim right now because according to this logic I'm almost as suspicious as CheeryDog who is an "answer" for three questions. I'm answer for two questions, (2) and (3) if some of you think that my vacation was fake (it wasn't fake anyway).

So, according to this, CheeryDog is scum. Who has a caveat?
Unfortunately, I have. He (more precisely: Boonskiies) was constantly on the Chevre wagon. Also, CheeryDog wasn't on the Misaka wagon.

Everyone: what are your opinion? As soon as I have some time I'll examine others too.

By the way, I think the setup is clear now. Town: Jailkeeper, Tracker, Bodyguard. Scum: Traitor and Rolecop – Konowa's flip confirms my hypothesis about the latter one. At least, this setup seems to be balanced for me.

[Aneninen]

Not even after the Miller claim?

[Aneninen]

I was never on the Konowa wagon, I can't have jumped off it.
Please actually do some proper vca if you're bothering, there's just words here that still mean nothing, such as my position off the misaka wagon. (especially when both of the wagons have me in the same position as not having voted anyone.

You're right, I must have misread something. Sorry.
At least I didn't vote for you after presenting a flawed case. ^_^

[Aneninen]

Preemptive prod dodge. I have had busy days since my holiday ended. And I'm still sick which is not funny because apart from my sweetheart noone accepts the latter fact in my fukkn IRL.

[Aneninen]

Have I just missed the Day again?

[Aneninen]

Actually I had a feeling that Cheery was scum, even if you don't believe me now. (I wouldn't believe it if I were you lol.)
A pity that I was unable to make a viable case against him.
Regardless of the end of the game, I will definitely win an award for my performance:

The Player Who Really Tried Hard But Missed Everything

. Hey, BipolarChemist, can I have that title? ^_^

[Aneninen]

Wait, I can still do something.

The following part will be relevant only if Cheery flips town.

In that case – though I think we've, or, let's be honest,

you've

found the right one – my reads are the following right now:

Sthar is most probably town. Or at least, I can remember that I thought Broodking was town. That's my main argument.
I'm almost sure that Guyett is town. He was on the Chevre wagon. Misaka wagon – oops, he was there, that's a caveat (?). During the Riddleton wagon he voted for Konowa. In general, his posts have been town, I think.
So, in this case EPM is the scum. Missing the Chevre wagon. He was on the Misaka wagon. Though, missing the Riddleton wagon and voted for Konowa. (Caveat?) Plus, his hammer and the fact that he is willing to want Guyett.

Remember these, because it's very likely that I won't survive the Night. (And, to tell the truth, I deserve that Nightkill.) If Cheery flips town and I'm still here next Day (which is not too probable in my opinion) I'll have more time for re-reading and analysing everything once more.

And I hope I haven't f-cked up everything with this post now.

[Aneninen]

Bipolar, thanks for modding, this was a really good one. Also, congratulations to the scum team, you had a great gamelplay!

I've learnt something important.
After Chaos had revealed his investigation on me, I tried to collect a lot of data about everything. As you can see now, I was telling the truth, even if some of you didn't believe me. The main problem was the following. I was waiting for someone who might actually

use

my data, I tried to start discussions about everything instead of figuring out something useful out of the things I had collected. I had the opportunity to hammer Konowa earlier but, instead of doing it I watched his wagon dissolving into nothingness and in the end of the Day I was on the Riddleton wagon – which I consider the most terrible wagon of the game as I look back now.
Next Day I was V/LA because I was on holiday, so I missed the Konowa lynch. But, the worst part of my gameplay was Day5. I was reading the game 'till the cows came home and I decided many times that I would ISO everyone, I would post more... after all, I had all the information collected, I only would have had to

use

them! Still, I did nothing but watched the Day ending – though, by that time everyone was sure that I was town. That was the THIRD time when I simply failed to do anything at the end of the Day. I had the opportunity to solve the game and I did nothing.
It's no surprise that Bipolar made a jigsaw puzzle out of my corpse (lololol!), as if he had said "Aneninen, pull yourself together".
Such a gameplay was unacceptable.

[Aneninen]

I think the same. A Mafia Rolecop would have helped you more than a Mafia Strongman. Despite of this, it was a fun setup to play.