Mini 1601: B_E's Mind Mafia ABANDIFIED

[dybeck]

vote: Kid A

And... "not random"? That's a joke or a meta-reference I don't get, right? Or the world's fastest softclaim?

[dybeck]

things you must know about me......

1. My meta is very unique

One thing you must know about me is that I policy lynch people who use phrases like "very unique"

[dybeck]

This.

[dybeck]

UNVOTE: Hep
VOTE: Aegor]
Dude, don't say something extremely vague and suspicious, and ignore people when you're asked to clarify.
Anti town as shit itself.

Did you just start a healthy RVS wagon and then as soon as it started to build up some momentum, deliberately jump off before it put its target under pressure? UNVOTE: VOTE: Csareo

[dybeck]

UNVOTE: Hep
VOTE: Aegor]
Dude, don't say something extremely vague and suspicious, and ignore people when you're asked to clarify.
Anti town as shit itself.

Did you just start a healthy RVS wagon and then as soon as it started to build up some momentum, deliberately jump off before it put its target under pressure? UNVOTE: VOTE: Csareo

Mate, we use RVS to stir discussion.
RVS ends as soon as discussion begins, and scum hunting can start.
I would rather pressure Aegor into telling me what his sentence started.
A couple questions come to mind...

1. Why did you say I started the wagon? I hardly would count that as starting a wagon.
2. Why was the wagon healthy?
3. What information did you expect him to give? RVS isn't about having other players out information, rather than stirring discussion in the hopes of scum tells.
4. If the wagon was healthy, why weren't you on it?

@Townies, what are your thoughts on post #38? Am I overthinking this?

OK I think scumhunting just started. The whole point of the RVS is that nobody responds to anything unless a few votes are thrown around. And it's much better to have them focused in a few directions rather than flat across the board. Early wagons are healthy. I don't think I ever suggested that I wanted the wagonee to spew game information, nor that everyone in the game should be on it, so I'm not sure why you're misrepresenting in that way, but your post gave the impression to me that you'd found some excuse to sneak off from a wagon before it bore any fruit or caused any discomfort for its target, and I think it's worth calling you on it. If one of you flips scum, I will be taking long looks at the other.

[dybeck]

And... "not random"? That's a joke or a meta-reference I don't get, right?

Meta reference. Specifically, I checked for changes in activity during the pregame. Not really very indicative, but better than RVS, which I don't participate in.

I don't want to hijack the game thread with a discussion on strategy while we're still waiting on people to post because it gives lurkers a chance to hide, but when this game's over, I'd be really interested to hear what you were looking for because this sounds interesting and I've not come across it before. Probably safer not to talk about it now, even in PM, in case it's considered discussion of an ongoing game, but remind me when this is all over - I'm curious to know what one would look for.

[dybeck]

It was part of a masterplan in which I would fakeclaim Day Cop with a guilty on NicCage and then see what happened. I decided against it because I was worried that given the playerlist and my unfamiliarity with most of it, the potential real Cop would counterclaim, not realizing that I was not serious, and out himself. So...I improvised.

Pretty sure no scum would admit to a plan like this

[dybeck]

@dybeck:

I just reread #62 and you seem fairly certain of my alignment. What is your read based on?

I'm not sure how you've drawn that conclusion - I'm not sure you've yet pinged my radar significantly either way. Are you talking about post #61 where I expressed interest in your RVS strategy?

[dybeck]

#121- How come daytalk speculation is WIFOM? I am new to this site. I haven't been on mafiascum for 7 years like you have. Is it default in all games, standard, ect.? I don't know how things work here. Asking these questions is absolutely essential for catching scum.

Most speculations of any sort (night kills, daytalk etc) are WIFOM. It's my personal opinion in that I hate WIFOM. It accomplishes nothing and just serves to distract people. I consider it a scum tactic most of the time.

Also, I strongly disagree with this blanket statement. Both town and scum

need

to speculate - but particularly town, because we start with much less information, and can't win without finding more. Both scum and town can use information about the game to find the targets they need, but I think the way in which that speculation is done can give some good reads (in both directions). You trying to shut down discussion by declaring it blanket scummy is, at best, not great town play.

[dybeck]

Is that just OMGUS? Or do you have anything more constructive to add?

[dybeck]

Mod: I am going to have limited access for the remainder of the weekend and possibly into Monday.

I will try and put my vote somewhere more useful before I go but won't have time for a full re-read until Monday at least.

[dybeck]

I'm back - I expected to have no time to post for my first day away, but I unexpectedly had no mobile internet access for the remainder. And to cap all that, my office firewall is now apparently blocking this site, but at least I'm back in the city so I have mobile if all else fails.

The chief line of discussion seems to have been Csareo, and I think I'm probably leaning scum on him too - his defensiveness about how "my town game always looks scummy" - and his Post 19 where he tried to deter voters by inferring that reading him as scum effectively marked you as a "new" player reeks of appealing to something that isn't logic. He asked some bogus questions of me in #47 that seemed more inflammatory than actual scumhunting. I suppose at that stage in the game he could be forgiven for stirring up a wagon out of nothing. I've done it myself to see who hops on - but I'm not seeing any indication that this was the intention. I'm also not a big fan of seeking mod clarifications in the thread - it always smacks of trying to look like you're actively seeking information when in fact you're not bothering to do any analysis. So his post where he asked about mafia having daytalk seemed a bit off. I still don't think I can see why we would even care whether mafia have daytalk - unless they have other day abilities, they can talk all they like for all I care.

That said, he's posted a lot. A whole lot. And that's just not something we tend to see from mafia on Day 1. I don't know how much experience he has, but it seems that so often the person that talks the most gets lynched when there's little else to go on, on Day 1.

A vanilla townie claim doesn't help his case much - but when you're a townie, you're a townie - and there's not much to be done about it.

More instructive, though, is to look at the way he was wagoned. There was a mixture of people with genuine reasons and some votes that looked a lot like jumping a bandwagon. A few were early votes, but the one that bothers me the most was Ythill's. I'm not sure I can really put my finger on exactly what bothered me, but it just looked a little like he was seeking to build a gradual case after the vote count but before the wagon got to critical stage, when his vote would have been the more scutinised L-1 or L-2 votes.

TSO makes assertions about Csareo's scumminess, but doesn't vote him. I don't like that as a general rule, but he wasn't voting anyone else either, and I've seen him keep his powder dry in this way elsewhere on the site, so maybe it's not necessarily a strong tell (although I personally think it's bad play). TSO also did at least put his money where his mouth was a little bit later.

But the worst is Aegor. In 12 hours on 16th August he went from "not feeling the Csareo wagon" to voting him - at a critical stage in the wagon, with no explanation. I'd really like to see some explanation of it.

Beastcharizard and Elias both seemed to jump on purely for the pleasure of being on a wagon, and to be honest if I'd been around I would have wanted to call them on it instantly. Elias then jumped a whole different wagon - and I'm not sure what to make of that. I could see Elias and Csareo as scumbuddies at that point - Elias wanting to call his buddy out as being scum but then start an alternate wagon to try and dissuade a lynch while there was still plenty of time.

On balance, though, looking at Aegor in iso, there is a lot of fluff, a lot of wagon-hopping, and not much in his posts that gives me the impression that he's actually reading and analysing much. Maybe he's just lazy, but it feels more to me like he's scum, in the sense that scum don't need to read and analyse to make their decisions in the same way as town do. I'm happy with an UNVOTE: VOTE: Aegor

[dybeck]

Great analysis there beast. No way you're scum then. And yeah, I did vote Csareo, for a reason that I explained at the time. If you have a case to make, I suggest you go ahead and make it.

Incidentally,

@mod:

your vote counts have consistently had me voting Kid A, when I came off him quite early on after RVS.

[dybeck]

@beast: If you actually READ posts instead of just looking at their length, you'll understand a lot more about the relative scumminess of different players in the game. If you're not interested in doing that, then I seriously question why, because it's very far from what I'd expect to see from a pro-town player.

And I've been very clear about the pros and cons of voting Csareo. It was the whole point of my post if you actually bother to do take it in. I think there are several better choices right now and I don't see any reason to jump straight to hammer when we still have time in the day.

[dybeck]

I don't know. I think he's displayed tells in both directions. I certainly don't think he's the scummiest player.

You really missed the main point of the post, though, which was that the actions in response to Csareo's wagon, which has been the main talking point of the day so far, give more away about who's scum than Csareo's actions themselves.

I've never understood how ambivalence strikes so many people as a scumtell. It's the job of town to keep an open mind on as many players as possible, and I definitely don't have any certainty on who's scum at this stage.

If you're looking for someone to yell "OMG OMG OBVSCUM" and not give a crap whether we hurtle into a mislynch or not, then that's just not me.

I think Aegor's the best choice for where my vote should be, and I've explained why. The fact that he's now gone silent makes me more happy with my vote. If I do get lynched today, he's at least worth investigating.

[dybeck]

Odds are, of course, like most Day 1s, we'll find the majority of the scum among the lurkers.

[dybeck]

I also feel we should start to settle on who we plan to lynch. That doesn't mean that you have to push one person from here until lynch. It does mean that vanity wagons are pretty stupid. Hint: Kid A, Riddleton isn't being lynched today. So stop voting him.

I'm not sure I agree that we need to rush to a lynch, but it does remind me that Kid A promised a case on Riddleton that I'd like to see, because they are two players that I'm finding it hardest to read. This game felt like it was becoming a lurkers' paradise, and if anyone's capitalised on that, it's Kid A. Looking at his iso shows absolutely no content whatsoever and nobody's really called him on it.

[dybeck]

For me, Aegor, OkaPoka and Kid A in some order.

[dybeck]

For me, Aegor, OkaPoka and Kid A in some order.

yeah this is basically bull. Riddleton and I gave order - it's not that difficult to do. It also makes it easier for scum-you to opportunistically slide onto any of the three - so order this.

No. You know what makes it easy for scum to opportunistically slide onto any wagon? Scumreading them all. And you know who's been doing that all game? You have.

Csareo:

Csareo has literally been raining scumtells but I'm not sure one person has stuck up in his defense once.

Do scum really do this? I can;t imagine this kind of hardbussing being off-the-cuff. If they do, and Csareo flips scum, then I'm going to be looking at the people who drove this wagon from the start.

Me, PM/Shinobi:

including inactives? such as dybeck/PM?

Kid A:

I don't get the Kid A wagon; I'm scumreading him, but the majority of votes seem to be to get a wagon, not a lynch. If you tell the guy they're just pressure votes, you're defeating the entire point of your vote.

Aegor:

To summarise, I'm scumreading Aegor a lot more than I suspected I was because I was townreading him early and he pretty much slipped under my radar. He's not worthy of a super-strong scumread, but he is worthy of a decent one.

Verdict: null-scum.

Virtually everyone else:

Even though I'm scumreading active players as well, I can't help but feeling most of the scum are hard lurking.

It disturbs me how many people's lynches I am okay with here.

Too right. The number of wagons you've hinted at supporting disturbs me too. Particularly since the whole town seems to be following your lead right now.

[dybeck]

Interesting quickwagon. I suppose it's fortunate I have a testable claim insofar as I'm a jailer.

If I still get lynched, hopefully stuff I've said will carry more weight tomorrow. Just remember that the scum are among the lurkers or among those who quickjumped my wagon. Look more closelier at Aegor, Kid A/Feirei and beastcharizard, because at least one, probably more, just has to be scum.

[dybeck]

I spotted the mod error a while ago... but i thought the scummiest thing I could possibly do was to point it out in thread when the heat turned on me... I PM'd the mod several times about it but he didn't pick them up

Could have been a great get out of jail free card if he had gotten lynched in error gievn that we had no cop, although I suspect I would have been vigged. Unless, of course, I also got jailkept to keep me from making a kill. That would have been awesome