Mini 1601: B_E's Mind Mafia ABANDIFIED

[T S O]

so this thing started

[T S O]

Upgrading heph to town in my reads. Just sayin.

Because he asked the question about day talk?

[T S O]

Ythill, why were you scumreading Riddleton again? I picked up a townread off him in the first few pages.

[T S O]

[quote="In post 14, Csareo"]
1. My meta is very unique, and many people interpret it as being scum. This leads me to being lynched a lot when playing with new people.
2. I hate playing in slow games. I don't multi quote, and I may put in a fluff post now and then just to stir up conversation. I often will play scum/stupid to stir reactions out of people.
3. I will NOT share my other games. I want my meta to be more flexible and unknown here. If I am asked for my previous games, I will refuse!/quote]

Everyone else apparently disliked #1, but my personal dislike is #2. This feels like he's just giving himself a potential back-out if he gets caught.

[T S O]

Are you still scumreading Csareo?

[T S O]

Do you know why you've been upgraded?

[T S O]

Does mafia have day talk?

What was your opinion on this post, Riddle?

[T S O]

(the implication being Csareo, as scum, would know the answer to this; do you think he's faking ignorance?)

[T S O]

What were heph's scumtells?

[T S O]

Considering #48, Csareo/Riddle/dybeck scumteam could make sense. Is it really that easy?

It's usually not that easy, no.

[T S O]

I don't understand why you're scumreading dybeck, by the way.

[T S O]

Reason being there's a reason he could post that as both town or scum.

You can justify almost anything using this reasoning.

[T S O]

Do you have any reads, other than Csareo?

[T S O]

Okay, that clears that up, I guess.

pedit: why would he do it as scum? it's not like day cop would ever work on anyone with a week of experience.

[T S O]

I think Csareo is scum, Ythill.

[T S O]

Csareo, do you think agreeing with someone's implication is a scumtell or something?

It's not remotely close to a scumtell.

[T S O]

[quote="In post 58, Ythill"]Csareo, who looked very townie at first, is starting to slip a little./quote]

This is the pretext for him changing his stance. Either he's town or you believe he was scum who was being remarkably careful about showing organic reads. If it's the latter, then why? What reason does scum-Ythill have to do this? It's a lot of work for meagre reward.

[T S O]

...I'll admit I find it a little weird, but I still don't know why he'd actually do it as scum. He seems more careful than that.

I mainly scumread people if I can see scummy motivation in their actions. I can't see a huge amount in Ythill's so far, but your first post was filled with get-out clauses and there's definite scum motivation in that.

[T S O]

I'm back and I'll catch up soon.

Beast! It's been too long!

[T S O]

I'm townreading both Riddleton and hephaestus.

[T S O]

If anything, Elias, I'm treating #110 as a towntell. Although I don't say it, when I see my name down under townreads, I get a happy little feeling. The only difference is that heph is just articulating it.

[T S O]

Initially, a strong townread, but he seems to be a mixed bag.

I'd love him to be town because he seems like the sort of player I'd love to work with, but I can't confidently say he -is- town right now.

[T S O]

What do you think of Elias so far, Riddleton?

[T S O]

I, too, don't understand what you saw in Kid A's 3 posts which inspired devotion.

[T S O]

I don't understand why you're so okay with being voted.

I'll admit it's not a scumtell because I cannot find -any- scum motivation in doing it - but I can't find town motivation either. What gives?

[T S O]

I don't vote people often. It's just a playstyle thing, really.

[T S O]

Nonetheless, you have a point.

Vote: Csareo

[T S O]

Elias, you seem like one of those people who lies about everything.

If there is a third scum you are it in my mind now.

I don't get where this came from.

Csareo + Ythill (maybe) + someone else.

Do you really think Csareo and Ythill are partners?

And Ythill is performing some kind of strange convoluted bus where he pretends to withhold information he doesn't have, draws flak for it, then just gives up on it?

I don't agree with this assumption at all.

[T S O]

Csareo has literally been raining scumtells but I'm not sure one person has stuck up in his defense once.

Do scum really do this? I can;t imagine this kind of hardbussing being off-the-cuff. If they do, and Csareo flips scum, then I'm going to be looking at the people who drove this wagon from the start.

[T S O]

I don't know why but I'm feeling really paranoid right now.

[T S O]

I don't want anyone putting this thing to L-1 and a potential selfhammer until I question a few people.

[T S O]

What the fuck?

[T S O]

Unvote

What part of "Do not put to L-1 yet?" was fucking complicated?

[T S O]

[T S O]

I feel like I'm a sane person in a madhouse or something.

I stopped your lynch going through and your response is that ...you would like to claim and also you're replacing out.

Despite the fact we already have TWO OTHER empty slots.

[T S O]

Why would you join the game if you're just going to fuck town over like that?

[T S O]

I'm genuinely considering it because I am so pissed.

Why were you even eager to claim, then? I presumed you were a PR or something.

[T S O]

Elias, what's your read on Beast?

[T S O]

I'd love to sync up with you, Beast, but your urgency to quicklynch Csareo just feels off.

[T S O]

I mean we have a week left and it's not like there's even dissent for the wagon (apart from Aegor and my paranoia), so why are you trying to kill time we have?

[T S O]

Ythill, what is your timezone?

[T S O]

(or better; what time are you usually on relative to GMT +0?)

[T S O]

Am I the only one who's feeling like this is a mislynch?

[T S O]

I acknowledge I'm scumreading Csareo too, and I know my legitimacy will be blown to bits in the event of a scum flip, but this reminds me of multiple games I've played in the past where the d1 lynch has flipped town.

I feel like I'm trying to co-ordinate way too much on my own here.

I feel like no-one has any real readslist and I don't feel we get any information in the event of a townflip because there hasn't even been a struggle - the wagon never halted or faced a counterwagon.

[T S O]

And yet I'm not actually scumreading any players here except Csareo and Kid A, who are nearly certain not to be partners.

[T S O]

See, that's my problem! Beast has a readslist of 5 people (not including himself). 5. people. It's not like that's even that unreasonable. He's only missing Aegor and heph of the active players. But that still means there are 5 players he has literally no read on.

[T S O]

This isn't even an indictment of Beast; this is an indictment of the appalling activity and commitment of half the game.

[T S O]

I'm going to stop moaning because I know we need to stay positive, but odds are there's at least one scum in that pool and we are flipping a dice, essentially, to determine which one is scum.

[T S O]

*deep breath*

[T S O]

Indeed. That's one of the worst bits.

[T S O]

I'm not sure I have a firm read on Elias or Ythill. They've managed to become a bit muddied. I'm going to sort them out tomorrow.

[T S O]

including inactives? such as dybeck/PM?

[T S O]

My problem is that everyone seems to think Csareo is a guaranteed scumflip. I don't.

And I apologise for my annoyance; maybe if you'd help me out a bit more you wouldn't see it.

[T S O]

Oka, do you think Beast is incapable of bussing ...?

[T S O]

[quote="In post 380, Ythill"TSO sullies himself a bit too, because his doublespeak around Csareo sounds like a mafioso who knows that the guy in the noose is town.[/quote]

I think Csareo is so incredibly, blatantly scum that he must be scum, but at the same time nobody except Aegor has offered any resistance and Aegor hasn't really even.

It's doublespeak because it's doublethink - I'm in two mindsets about him.

[T S O]

Are you also scumreading Kid A, yeah?

[T S O]

I don't get the Kid A wagon; I'm scumreading him, but the majority of votes seem to be to get a wagon, not a lynch. If you tell the guy they're just pressure votes, you're defeating the entire point of your vote.

[T S O]

Are you scumreading everyone ...?

[T S O]

Not you, Beast, I meant dybeck.

[T S O]

We haven't started it yet, but I've decided even if I'm not hard townreading you, this will actually help me to get my read on you anyway.

[T S O]

Now that we have a game going, I'm making a readslist. It'll be up tonight.

Hint: doing the same makes me more likely to townread you and makes it easier for me to find scum.

[T S O]

Csareo, Ythill, Elias and dybeck, yeah?

[T S O]

How did you come to the conclusion it was even possible for us to No Lynch when everyone thinks Csareo is scum?

[T S O]

Spoiler: Fat_Tony

Again, not much content, but him calling Csareo's first post bad is a good start. Still though, null.

Spoiler: PMysterious

2 posts, neither of which contain any real information. Dead null.

Spoiler: Kid A

Again, not many posts, but I hate them all. He calls Riddleton scum, then forms a really REALLY tenuous link to Csareo and then suddenly becomes okay with Csareo's lynch. His activity is also shit. Null-scum.

Spoiler: OkaPoka

He replaced ABR, who seemed to think NicCage was scum, and that was all he posted.

I haven't seen enough of him to form a read outside of null, but I don't like him calling Beast scum. Null.

Spoiler: dybeck

The first really alignment-indicative thing I can find him doing #45, where he calls Csareo for scum for "starting an RVS wagon and jumping off when it built momentum and before its target was pressurised." Csareo is scum for many things, but this really isn't one of them. Being the first vote on an RVS wagon isn't suspicious or pressurising to scum-Csareo in the slightest. Worse, he uses this as a justification for voting Csareo and conveniently gets on the wagon with the most momentum. I don't like that at all.

In post #66, he calls Aegor town for admitting a plan he had involving a Day Cop. I don't agree with this, but I don't think it makes him scum either. He supports town speculation in #146, which I'm not mad about either, but it's pretty minimal really. He goes from #146 to #397 without posting any content at all, which is shit, but makes a wall in #397 to catch-up.

Riddleton's gone through the points on Csareo, which are really fence-sitty, and I'm not going to bother repeating his words on that. My main problem, apart from Csareo, is that dybeck appears to be scumreading Elias, BC, Csareo, Aegor and Ythill. That's ridiculous. He also votes Aegor, despite Aegor being his only townread early-game.

There's nothing in dybeck's ISO that particularly makes me townread him, there's no really town aligned motivation either. I'm not going to crucify him about Csareo because I was feeling that "two-minds" about Csareo myself, but it's not a towntell either and coupled with other stuff I dislike, I'm concluding dybeck is scum.

Spoiler: Beastcharizard

Beast's first post is a reaction to Csareo's #14, which he hated. I also hated it, so townpoints both for sharing my opinion and aggressively stating it. He forms decent early reads and puts his vote down early with no wishy-washiness. Again, town.

#210 is accurate in some parts and not in others. His first point is really good. His second point is also quite decent. However, it's like he supplements his observations with other accusations which I don't agree with. Case in point, him accusing Ythill of cross-bussing and then backing out. That's pretty damn rare. I also don't see any real pretext for it happening here. I still like #210 as a post, a lot. I just don't agree with some bits of it.

I actually didn't realise just how strong a townread Beast is of mine until now. He shows paranoia against Elias, but it's not scum paranoia at all. It's real town paranoia. I like other stuff of his, like how he openly states he's town as fuck. There's nothing else in Beast's ISO which makes me think he could be scum, apart from one thing. His urge to end the day early. I don't really know why he was so eager to shut discussion down.

Nonetheless, Beast is definitely one of my strongest townreads. Good reads, combined with town motivation and activity, lead me to conclude Beast is town.

Reads on half the game. Most of them are the inactives, but as the list goes down, the content gets larger.

I might get more done tonight, but it's more likely to be tomorrow.

[T S O]

I think he's just completely inactive, Oka.

[T S O]

His last post on the site was here, 4 days ago, so you're pretty much wasting your time.

[T S O]

Probably Ythill or Elias. I'll be interested to see your take on them.

[T S O]

Beast, 272 and 270 – hmmm... T S O seemed to be genuine for me so far...

I've only skimmed the thread today and I'll be actually looking at it tonight, along with finishing my reads, but I just wanted to point out that Beast wasn't talking about me there, he was talking about Elias.

[T S O]

Reads part 2 coming tonight!

[T S O]

Am I the only one getting townvibes off Aneninen, yeah?

[T S O]

Spoiler: Aegor

-I like his initial RVS vote because it's jokily scummy and I don't think a lot of players on-site are able to do that as scum without either slipping something or diluting the post itself. He's then obstinate to Csareo for no good reason, which again earns him townpoints.
-Post #63 is eugh, though. The more you read it, the worse it gets. I don't understand why he thought a Night Cop would counterclaim a Day Cop and I don't understand why picking NicCage was the optimal strategy because NC's seen that done before.
-He goes after Riddleton in #65 for attacking Csareo. This is a recurring feature of his ISO. I've played with Aegor in multiple games. To my recollection, he doesn't often defend newbs like he's doing here. I also feel like he never really gives a justification for -why- he doesn't like the wagon. It's all right telling us you dislike something, but it's basically worthless without then telling us why. Abstaining for no reason off a wagon is one of the most common scumtells there is.
-In #166, he tells us he doesn't want to vote Csareo. Ten posts later in #176, he does just that. Csareo's posts within that period of time were standard-bad Csareo posts, but they were also hyper-paranoid. Hyper paranoia is a towntell. I don't think that Csareo, within that time period, deserved to be voted.
-While voting Csareo, he campaigns for an ABR wagon in #218. I'm not going to bother explaining why I hate that.
-#277 is really hard to call for me; on one hand, he expresses disdain for Csareo's wagon, but on the other, he doesn't do a huge amount to stop it.
-Huge gap until #463, where he justifies his reasoning for pushing a Kid A wagon: beetlejuice, beetlejuice and more beetlejuice. I don't actually have a problem with this argument by itself - after all, Kid A is the king of Beetlejuice - but I feel there's a disconnect between Aegor never pushing inactives/calling for their replacement, and using Beetlejuice as the sole point for a lynch.
-In the same post he gives justification for backing away from Csareo. I somewhat follow why this happened. He asked three questions. What I don't get is what responses of Csareo convinced him to move away. Clarification would be nice, Aegor.

To summarise, I'm scumreading Aegor a lot more than I suspected I was because I was townreading him early and he pretty much slipped under my radar. He's not worthy of a super-strong scumread, but he is worthy of a decent one.

Verdict: null-scum.

[T S O]

I'm sorry I only got one done, guys, I was up at 7 with a sports competition on today which has basically fatigued me this whole day.

[T S O]

I'm going to point out the point of me doing these reads was pretty much to spur everyone else on to do them. With the exception of Riddleton, this hasn't really worked. At all.

Nonetheless, more tonight.

I also feel we should start to settle on who we plan to lynch. That doesn't mean that you have to push one person from here until lynch. It does mean that vanity wagons are pretty stupid. Hint: Kid A, Riddleton isn't being lynched today. So stop voting him.

[T S O]

Even though I'm scumreading active players as well, I can't help but feeling most of the scum are hard lurking.

Fat_Tony, please post something productive before day end.

[T S O]

It disturbs me how many people's lynches I am okay with here.

[T S O]

What's your read on Elias, Shinobi?

[T S O]

Whos lynches would you be OK with,

TSO

?

The question is, whose lynch would I -not- be okay with.

I don't think I would be really willing to lynch {beast, Shinobi, you, Ythill, Elias} today. That's in order, by the way. Maybe not heph or Anen either.

If we have a Vig, for the love of god, shoot something that's lurking.

[T S O]

Who are you scumreading out of the active players?

[T S O]

Aegor, I'm not sure I'll ever support a Shinobi wagon, based on the fact he's town as fuck right now.

[T S O]

For me, Aegor, OkaPoka and Kid A in some order.

yeah this is basically bull. Riddleton and I gave order - it's not that difficult to do. It also makes it easier for scum-you to opportunistically slide onto any of the three - so order this.

[T S O]

Aegor, I'm not sure I'll ever support a Shinobi wagon, based on the fact he's town as fuck right now.

Explain.

His hyper-aggressiveness towards you, for example, is significantly more indicative of town than basically anything else by anyone so far.

[T S O]

Aegor, I'm not sure I'll ever support a Shinobi wagon, based on the fact he's town as fuck right now.

Explain.

His hyper-aggressiveness towards you, for example, is significantly more indicative of town than basically anything else by anyone so far.

This townread actually bothers me. Can you reinforce this with anything else?

-Asking a shitload of questions which actually further your understanding of the game
-Meta'ing someone without being asked to or organically having to; basically, doing work when it's not specifically needed
-Sharing the disconnect I have where you lack strong townreads and you're kinda annoyed with everyone (the second part could just be me being grumpy though)
-Like I said, hyperaggressiveness

[T S O]

Also, I remember someone questioning Ythill on his townread of Kid A, and I can't find him giving an answer anywhere. Can someone not stupid help me with this or did he just flat-out not do it?

Don't remember the question but I rarely explain my townreads. Kid isn't even on my townlist. He was town in my second post, for probably next to nothing. He fell to town lean which was eventually absorbed into null for lack of meaningful content.

What exactly about him convinced you?

I know it's minimal, but I'd still like to know.

I love being third on so many lists.

Do you feel that's relevant in any way?

[T S O]

The second half isn't meant to be condescending, by the way - it's an actual question.

[T S O]

After you're done softpushing me, can you do what you were told and order your scumreads? Thanks.

[T S O]

In fact that post is such a brutal misrep of my play I'm actually going to respond to it.

[T S O]

Csareo:

Csareo has literally been raining scumtells but I'm not sure one person has stuck up in his defense once. Do scum really do this? I can;t imagine this kind of hardbussing being off-the-cuff. If they do, and Csareo flips scum, then I'm going to be looking at the people who drove this wagon from the start.

I was the one who defused the Csareo wagon when people like Kid A were ready and willing to hammer with bullshit explanations for doing so. I'm still not convinced the slot was scum after seeing Csareo's play in other games and I like Aneninen. Hence, why I said I wasn't feeling that lynch today. How you actually think I support this wagon is beyond belief.

Me, PM/Shinobi:

including inactives? such as dybeck/PM?

I called Shinobi town about three times on the last page. You, on the other hand, have done nothing worthy of being a townread, your push here on me is tenuous at best and your activity's shit to boot. So yeah, I am scumreading you. I'm fairly sure this is why you're actually attacking me on this, but I have no problem admitting I'd like to lynch you.

Kid A:

I don't get the Kid A wagon; I'm scumreading him, but the majority of votes seem to be to get a wagon, not a lynch. If you tell the guy they're just pressure votes, you're defeating the entire point of your vote.

I'm scumreading Kid A, yes. Your problem here is ...? Kid A did nothing productive except set-up a hammer. I don't have a read on Feirei yet. If you have a problem with my actual scumread, then you should say it.

Aegor:

To summarise, I'm scumreading Aegor a lot more than I suspected I was because I was townreading him early and he pretty much slipped under my radar. He's not worthy of a super-strong scumread, but he is worthy of a decent one.

Verdict: null-scum.

...and I laid out the reasons I was scumreading Aegor in a post, which Aegor did not respond to, so unless you can find fault in my reasoning, this is again bullshit.

Virtually everyone else:

Even though I'm scumreading active players as well, I can't help but feeling most of the scum are hard lurking.

Is this you feeling under pressure, since you're one of the only people hard lurking left?

It disturbs me how many people's lynches I am okay with here.

Too right. The number of wagons you've hinted at supporting disturbs me too. Particularly since the whole town seems to be following your lead right now.

In post #541 I listed 8 people I would not want to lynch today. The remaining players left are Fat_Tony's slot, which has done nothing but lurked, OkaPoka, who is basically the same, Aegor, who's a null-scum read, Kid A's slot, who was a veritable scumfuck (though the jury's out on Feirei) and you, who is also a scumfuck.

Instead of trying to insinuate I support every wagon when I obviously don't, actually attack my reasoning or get back to your scum QT.

I find the last part amusing, by the way - there's a very simple reason people may be following me, and it's that I actually look Town, I'm active and I've put serious work into this thread trying to catch scum. You, on the other hand, haven't once tried that. Maybe you should.

[T S O]

@Dybeck: We're not lynching TSO, so I don't know what you're doing.

@Aegor: You can't talk about intangible scumreads (such as you're not scumhunting) without providing evidence as to why you actually think that. And I still don't know what your Oka read is at, considering your issue with him was that he was useless and all you did was ask him where his read on Ythill was.

Other than Aegor, who are your scumreads?

[T S O]

I don't find your post about T S O particularly scummy, I only think that you're wrong about him.

I found it very scummy indeed.

Meta is useless. Stop using it, please.

Who's this in response to again?

[T S O]

I want to lynch dybeck now.

[T S O]

I've finally found someone who I'm really, really comfortable with lynching. It's him.

[T S O]

Fei, are you scumreading dybeck?

Tell me you are.

[T S O]

Ythill, are you willing to hang dybeck with me?

[T S O]

If dybeck is scum, which I'm decently confident of, then Aegor is either a far better scum player than I give him credit for or Town.

[T S O]

Feirei, you told me just a few minutes ago you weren't willing to lynch dybeck today. I don't understand what changed between my appeal and Aegor's, especially given he's chaining a Feirei scumflip to a dybeck scumflip.

[T S O]

Actually, no. Aegor will look significantly better from a scumflip, but it wouldn't make him near conftown, which was what I had been thinking.

[T S O]

Also I just realised that despite me aggressively pushing this wagon, I somehow forgot to be on it. Oh, TSO.

Unvote
Vote: dybeck

[T S O]

It slightly worries me how easy this has been to create, but then again everything slightly worries me, and he's still my top scumread regardless.

[T S O]

Anyone who doesn't vote for dybeck better have a good reason for doing so.

[T S O]

I hate that claim, but I have no way to disprove it.

[T S O]

We should check how that wagon emerged.

dybeck made the worst post of the game in #597 and my scumdar went crazy.

[T S O]

How testable is it?

[T S O]

I fucking knew it.

[T S O]

His claim smelled of shit. We got damn lucky that we had someone to counterclaim it, though.

[T S O]

Seeing this has actually made my day. I know that comes off as a little sad, but it's true.

[T S O]

Tomorrow I'll be doing analysis on dybeck's wagon. yay d1 scumlynches!

[T S O]

I'm going to go back and look at who was backing dybeck/backed his claim, because I felt there was definitely scum interfering with his lynch yesterday.

[T S O]

I don't really agree with #733, Ythill.

[T S O]

My view of the dybeck post is that it actually damns Csareo more than anyone else.

[T S O]

Dybeck doesn't strike me as a particularly crafty scum player. The whole paragraph on Csareo is waffle with no real conclusion at the end. I don't agree with the statement "when you're a townie, you're a townie" for example.

[T S O]

I don't think dybeck would make a catch-up post which did not address any of his buddies either.

[T S O]

I promise you, I would personally have strongmanned a dybeck lynch through tomorrow anyway.

[T S O]

In response, Riddleton might still be alive today, and scum might have been Jailed. I don't think scum can point to an event and directly predict what would happen after.

I would also be a little disappointed if scum asked to re-roll. I wouldn't be vitriolic, and I'd play again, but idk. I've won in games where my partner has died d1. If you're good enough you can do it.

[T S O]

(to clarify: I don't plan to be lenient whatsoever and I'd like nothing more than a perfect win. I feel scum should play on, but I have no intention of giving less than 100% to catch them).

[T S O]

...what?

[T S O]

Vote: beastcharizard

What the fuck, Beast?

[T S O]

Damn it.

[T S O]

That's ...very disappointing.

[T S O]

I don't know. I get it was an error, but it was an error that benefited town anyway. There were other solutions to this - modkills, put the game to night, etc. I specifically requested anything but a re-roll, so maybe I'm biased, but bah.

[T S O]

The good news is I enjoyed playing with y'all a lot!

[T S O]

Thanks, Anen.

Do the town guys feel you'd have got us eventually?

[T S O]

oh well

another scumgame bites the dust

I can never seem to roll scum anymore.

[T S O]

Could we have the scum QT? Why was I killed?

Vig shot. We shot Riddle. :/

[T S O]

thanks guys haha

[T S O]

I have mixed thoughts on this which I'm not sure I can really put into words.