Mini 1627: Ninja Mini Mafia

[orcinus_theoriginal]

UNVOTE:

who am i sheeping here?

[orcinus_theoriginal]

Oh ok my predecessor had some good posts.

VOTE: thor

[orcinus_theoriginal]

hey thor why did you unvote allyra?

[orcinus_theoriginal]

Why? I thought you agreed with her case, wherein I was voting her in terror with my entire scumteam to be rid of her, no?

I don't want to blindsheep my predecessor, and I can't imagine that you want me to go down that path.

although tbh i could and that would save me a lot of work

what was the point of that question?

[orcinus_theoriginal]

Like I'm sort of confused considering you had that bit earlier in the game about how you were asking people questions in order to understand their motivations + POV

and then a replacement comes in, asks you a question, and then you sort of snarkily respond with a "oh durrrr i thought you were scumreading me huh? HUH?"

isn't that kind of weird?

[orcinus_theoriginal]

Why? I thought you agreed with her case, wherein I was voting her in terror with my entire scumteam to be rid of her, no?

I don't want to blindsheep my predecessor, and I can't imagine that you want me to go down that path.

although tbh i could and that would save me a lot of work

what was the point of that question?

It was an invitation for you to justify your stance.
You dodged doing so.
Want to try again or explain the dodge some more?

my stance?

i mean my stance right now is sort of i'm sheeping my predecessor in my initial reads list and i'm asking questions to refine it

can i help with anything else

[orcinus_theoriginal]

I mean, when you state something and the first reply is "Why?" that is called a question about your motives.
You avoided it.
Why?

uhhhhh no

because you didn't ask "why" when i /stated/ something

i asked you a QUESTION, to which you responded and then asked me

why i asked the question

and why i asked the question should be pretty obvious?

[orcinus_theoriginal]

hey thor why did you unvote allyra?

Why? I thought you agreed with her case, wherein I was voting her in terror with my entire scumteam to be rid of her, no?

For clarity this is how the conversation went

I asked you a question

You answered the question

You proceeded to ask me why i asked the question, not why i've adopted the stance i currently hold

and why i asked the question should be pretty obvious, considering you had that "yeah so this is something called

scumhunting

and it's something that i

do

" line

or do you think only you can scumhunt or something?

[orcinus_theoriginal]

i mean my stance right now is sort of i'm sheeping my predecessor in my initial reads list and i'm asking questions to refine it

Besides the theory concept that you know your pred was town - why are you sheeping them?
Or is your stance simply that since you know they were honest they were correct?
Or did you read her case on me and were like 'yes, this case makes sense!'

Because both stances seem to beg for further detail.
I'd also like your read on Random.
And, heck, do research on BBT's issue with me (I provided another relevant link in my reply) and tell me what you think of your wagon mate's reasoning.

i think starting off a replacement game using my predecessor's reads is a theoretically sound thing to do as town, especially since catching up and analyzing in not-realtime has never been my forte or my interest

like i said

i mean my stance right now is sort of i'm sheeping my predecessor in my initial reads list and i'm asking questions to refine it

a direct implication of this quote is that it's an underdeveloped stance and a work in progress

i'd much rather comment on other people's cases than give my reads at this point in time so i'll look at BBT's whatever

[orcinus_theoriginal]

hey thor why did you unvote allyra?

Why?

I thought you agreed with her case

, wherein I was voting her in terror with my entire scumteam to be rid of her, no?

For clarity this is how the conversation went

I agree - wherein I note a statement you made earlier and asked you about it.
Is this semantic derp going somewhere or no?

I'd still like my question answered.

i mean sure we can do semantics

I mean, when you state something and the first reply is "Why?" that is called a question about your motives.

actually the first reply was calling me a derp but i can roll with this

if you read the question in context again, this is not a question about why i have the stance i have. this asks me why i asked the question.

hey thor why did you unvote allyra?

Why? I thought you agreed with her case, wherein I was voting her in terror with my entire scumteam to be rid of her, no?

that i have the stance i do is mentioned as part of your question, but this conversation did NOT go like this
"hey thor here's my stance"
"why?"

it went like this
"hey thor tell me about X"
"why?"

which implies directly that you're asking me why i felt it necessary to inquire about X

[orcinus_theoriginal]

which implies directly that you're asking me why i felt it necessary to inquire about X

which is something i pointed about because you shouldn't be asking me why i felt it necessary to inquire about X, which is an answer to your "where is this semantic derp going"

hope this clears things up my man

[orcinus_theoriginal]

i mean i'd love to go work on BBT's whatever but that false accusation of dodging is pretty irksome

since i answered your question of "why did you ask me about x"

and then you accused me of dodging the question of "why is this your stance" which was actually never your question to begin with

[orcinus_theoriginal]

And, heck, do research on BBT's issue with me (I provided another relevant link in my reply) and tell me what you think of your wagon mate's reasoning.

a cursory glance at BBTs posts tells me this is a largely personal and ungrounded issue

i also think his signature is silly and that makes it hard for me to take stock in his arguments

[orcinus_theoriginal]

speaking of BBTs signature varsoon didn't enter the game as crazy-balls-to-the-walls as i'd expect of town varsoon, which is kinda scummy

there's also something to his tone which i'm kind of feeling but finding it hard to articulate

when i played with him in the past i think he sounded much more excited

but maybe that's only because previously we only played together in games where we knew a lot of the playerlist so everyone was friends

i find it HIGHLY interesting he didn't call out/establish banter with xiao long

[orcinus_theoriginal]

i dunno

i feel like thor and i share a lot of the same gameplay beliefs cos a lot of his quotes on gameplay click with me.

like "Because I think you are hard to read and otherwise stand a normal chance to be scum so are an excellent Day 1 lynch." is something i'm pretty sure i've said and so is the unvote on replacement which might make me lean-town but i suspect (and hopefully thor will save me from this meta-dive) it's just something he does on policy

which is why something that's nagging at me is his line of questioning

at least when i see a replacement come in and sheep his predecessor, MY first thought would not be to question the replacement on why he's sheeping his predecessor. i think this would be obvious for a few reasons
-theoretically correct on sheeping conftown
-establishes a stance which starts conversation

yeah it's great thor knows at least the first point and maybe the second. but it's bizzare that he would choose to make a post like the fist half of 283 i mean what exactly are you hoping to learn?

it feels like thor isn't actually interested in finding out my alliance / getting a replacement caught up to game rather than just dissuading me from his wagon

and then there's that thing where he accused me of dodging a question he never asked


meanwhile deadline is in 7 days which i don't intend on using fully but it's nice to have the option of time available. while i might come back to a randomidget vote if i don't end up voting for thor but i think there's merit in going for the head before the ass and randomidget is an ass and i have no idea where that wagon is supposed to lead so i think we should like not do that just yet

[orcinus_theoriginal]

you know what's really ironic

BBTs argument for thorscum is basically a meta argument since it relies on the meta of "thor policy lynches BBT" (which isn't a correct meta but ok whatever that's how he perceives it)

haha?

[orcinus_theoriginal]

Want to center my focus on getting goblin to talk and to see what konowa thinks of this game so far.

why is that your center of attention?

to clarify, you want to see what konowa thinks of goblin's game so far?

[orcinus_theoriginal]

I now want to policy lynch orcinus for costing me about ten minutes of my life to watch him say nothing.

yeah i don't actually do this kind of talk sry

[orcinus_theoriginal]

i think i'll pass on the "hey i'm going to posture like i'm exempt from answering any posts directed at me cos 2009 joindate baby while i demand orci answers mine!!"

and instead i'll just vote you

that sounds like it'd be more productive

[orcinus_theoriginal]

a continuation of an ongoing discussion are posts that i expect to be answered and if "dodging" is the buzzord of the day i'd suggest your reluctance to continue that discussion barring a direct callout is dodging on your part

in any case i called my predecessor's posts "good" because it looked like a solid case. i didn't look into the specifics because i didn't need to, i'm not looking for a case to push, i'm looking for stances to start off and that i can use as my own as i work my way into the game

[orcinus_theoriginal]

i think the push on randommidget is poor on everyone's part because it's a boring target 3 days into the game and seems slightly defensive on your part because the thing you're attacking about him is that he liked allyra's case on you

the choice of randomidget over say goblin, drake crusader, zebulin or gamsimbre also seems very arbitrary.

[orcinus_theoriginal]

287-290 is a direct continuation of our discussion about my concerns with your line of questioning

[orcinus_theoriginal]

i mean my stance right now is sort of i'm sheeping my predecessor in my initial reads list and i'm asking questions to refine it

Besides the theory concept that you know your pred was town - why are you sheeping them?
Or is your stance simply that since you know they were honest they were correct?
Or did you read her case on me and were like 'yes, this case makes sense!'

Because both stances seem to beg for further detail.
I'd also like your read on Random.
And, heck, do research on BBT's issue with me (I provided another relevant link in my reply) and tell me what you think of your wagon mate's reasoning.

i think starting off a replacement game using my predecessor's reads is a theoretically sound thing to do as town, especially since catching up and analyzing in not-realtime has never been my forte or my interest

like i said

i mean my stance right now is sort of i'm sheeping my predecessor in my initial reads list and i'm asking questions to refine it

a direct implication of this quote is that it's an underdeveloped stance and a work in progress

but sure i guess?

[orcinus_theoriginal]

i mean the issue i have with you right now are a few
1. unproductive and disingenuous lines of questioning that seems solely geared to get me to unvote when i first replaced in
2. reluctance to engage in conversation
3. i guess the fact that your two scumreads right now are two of the people scumreading you is an added bonus
4. there's a certain amount of cognitive dissonance in your posts. i mean you chide me for talking semantics when it really wasn't semantics, it was you either misphrasing your question or you just trying to deliberately misrep me as "dodging" things. and then the tipping point for my slot being scum again is this idea that i somehow treated my replacement's case strangely, when i've made it perfectly clear how i deal with predecessors cases replacing in and your evidence for the countercase is that i called all's case "good", which again is semantics. there's also this willingness to brand what i do as scummy especially when i think objectively you should not be scumreading me right now. the attack on me dodging question is highly highly questionable. i made it clear the first time that you alleged i dodged a question that i didn't think that's the question you were asking me and i highlighted very specifically why that wasn't the question you were asking me. the second time you accused me of dodging a question (just now), i had made it clear i found your attitude rude and that i didn't do that. so all this seems very disingenuous to me and i will give you the lynch yes i will lynch you

[orcinus_theoriginal]

287-290 is a direct continuation of our discussion about my concerns with your line of questioning

And the question(s?) you asked in those posts that i didn't answer are...?

a continuation of an ongoing discussion are posts that i expect to be answered and if "dodging" is the buzzord of the day i'd suggest your reluctance to continue that discussion barring a direct callout is dodging on your part

[orcinus_theoriginal]

i think the push on randommidget is poor on everyone's part because it's a boring target 3 days into the game and seems slightly defensive on your part because the thing you're attacking about him is that he liked allyra's case on you

the choice of randomidget over say goblin, drake crusader, zebulin or gamsimbre also seems very arbitrary.

This is actually contradictory - because you already state awareness of why I pushed on him over those other players. Whether or not you consider it worthwhile is maybe worth debating, but the second point is meaningless flim-flam on your part - because you already know it wasn't arbitrary because you were literally able to describe what he did differently.

no?

[orcinus_theoriginal]

like you can iso me and find that the first half of 310 is a lie

can you requote the questions you'd like me to answer

[orcinus_theoriginal]

i am also going to eat dinner now

for the people reading this conversation in the future

do not listen to thor when he tries to sell you that i went crying to my scum qt to try and figure out what to do

do not listen to him when he tries to say that i had to take a long time to try and dig myself out of whatever metaphorical life-hole his vote has put me into

do not listen because i am eating delicious delicious food and i will be back in 30 minutes

instead, vote thor

[orcinus_theoriginal]

when i invite you to use quotes to support your arguments

and you turn instead to 'you lie' rhetoric

that is a sign thor that your scumgame needs work

i'll let you continue on your victory speech posturing i think it'll be pretty short lived

[orcinus_theoriginal]

do not listen to thor when he tries to sell you that i went crying to my scum qt to try and figure out what to do

Oh, and for the record - I said absolutely nothing like this.
That said - I'm calling it now, scum have Daytalk.
Winning!

Everyone can sheep me now.

317 is kinda interesting that you post it now considering i actually just quoted an answer i gave before?

do not listen to thor when he tries to sell you that i went crying to my scum qt to try and figure out what to do

Oh, and for the record - I said absolutely nothing like this.

i don't really see why you saw the need to post this if you are town, especially since i said 'when he tried to sell you' so (the entire post being jokey notwithstanding) i didn't even accuse you of saying that? i think you are just trying to latch random lines of mine to reply to in order to strengthen your sophism

[orcinus_theoriginal]

another note to the future readers of this thread:

even though thor sees the need to slip an empty "victory"/"orci claimed scum"/"sheep me" statement into every post and i do not see the need for such posturing please note that i am also pretty confident i caught scum and i would indeed love for your support ty ty

[orcinus_theoriginal]

because you already

state awareness

of why I pushed on him over those other players. Whether or not you consider it worthwhile is maybe worth debating, but the second point is meaningless flim-flam on your part - because you already know it wasn't arbitrary because you were

literally able to describe what he did differently

.

can you quote this

[orcinus_theoriginal]

317 this goes back to my previous point about cognitive dissonance wrt semantics

because no there were no questions in the strict sense but we were having a discussion about how i found your line of questioning scummy and then you avoided replying to it

it's like if i'm having a back and forth point by point argument with someone and they suddenly just stop replying yes i would consider that dodging?

[orcinus_theoriginal]

reread again. there's not too much interesting in the early pages.

i think konowa is town and BBT is probably town because i don't see scum using such an overtly personal reasoning for voting thor

though i haven't actually read any xiao/Varsoon games before, and maybe varsoon treats xiao differently from how he treats the group of friends vars and i play with, but something about their interaction seems off. varsoon seems a little too meek. but really i'd need to see him work on stuff before i can properly read him. i'm pretty sure xiao is town though. i'm pretty out of steam for insane metadives but if i do one it might be on xiao and xiao/varsoon games

i'm also going to be very careful with reading varsoon this game because my meta is apparently rusty

gamsimbre just got off vla but his (two) posts are like all right and pretty transparent and i don't think i'll be looking that direction day 1

everyone else is boring

[orcinus_theoriginal]

No, we were having a conversation about how I found your dodging scummy, and you were posting walls defending your dodge.

i mean my stance right now is sort of i'm sheeping my predecessor in my initial reads list and i'm asking questions to refine it

Besides the theory concept that you know your pred was town - why are you sheeping them?
Or is your stance simply that since you know they were honest they were correct?
Or did you read her case on me and were like 'yes, this case makes sense!'

Because both stances seem to beg for further detail.
I'd also like your read on Random.
And, heck, do research on BBT's issue with me (I provided another relevant link in my reply) and tell me what you think of your wagon mate's reasoning.

i think starting off a replacement game using my predecessor's reads is a theoretically sound thing to do as town, especially since catching up and analyzing in not-realtime has never been my forte or my interest

like i said

i mean my stance right now is sort of i'm sheeping my predecessor in my initial reads list and i'm asking questions to refine it

a direct implication of this quote is that it's an underdeveloped stance and a work in progress

i'd much rather comment on other people's cases than give my reads at this point in time so i'll look at BBT's whatever

hey thor why did you unvote allyra?

Why?

I thought you agreed with her case

, wherein I was voting her in terror with my entire scumteam to be rid of her, no?

For clarity this is how the conversation went

I agree - wherein I note a statement you made earlier and asked you about it.
Is this semantic derp going somewhere or no?

I'd still like my question answered.

i mean sure we can do semantics

I mean, when you state something and the first reply is "Why?" that is called a question about your motives.

actually the first reply was calling me a derp but i can roll with this

if you read the question in context again, this is not a question about why i have the stance i have. this asks me why i asked the question.

hey thor why did you unvote allyra?

Why? I thought you agreed with her case, wherein I was voting her in terror with my entire scumteam to be rid of her, no?

that i have the stance i do is mentioned as part of your question, but this conversation did NOT go like this
"hey thor here's my stance"
"why?"

it went like this
"hey thor tell me about X"
"why?"

which implies directly that you're asking me why i felt it necessary to inquire about X

which implies directly that you're asking me why i felt it necessary to inquire about X

which is something i pointed about because you shouldn't be asking me why i felt it necessary to inquire about X, which is an answer to your "where is this semantic derp going"

hope this clears things up my man

i mean i'd love to go work on BBT's whatever but that false accusation of dodging is pretty irksome

since i answered your question of "why did you ask me about x"

and then you accused me of dodging the question of "why is this your stance" which was actually never your question to begin with

?

[orcinus_theoriginal]

Well, I understand what 324 is saying, so sure;

the thing you're attacking about him is that he liked allyra's case on you

I'm not sure why I need to remind you of things you said and that I literally was quoting already in the post you're quoting of me asking me to quote them back to you.

yeah sorry for the trouble i just want to use this to clarify a few things.

is this the only reason why you are pushing midget over the other lurkerscum?

[orcinus_theoriginal]

Can you explain what you mean in Post 322?
It seems like a defense of your slip - but I literally don't know what you're saying, and I'd like to give you a chance to spell it out.

which part of 322?

idk what "your slip" refers to but you've been dropping kinda meaningless buzzwords all conversation so i'm not even bothered enough to ask

[orcinus_theoriginal]

Any other "questions" for me?

hey "look" i can put t"hin"gs in quo"tation marks as wel"""l

ill let you know buddy

[orcinus_theoriginal]

i mean ok i'll spell out my 329 because i feel like i'll have to at this rate

in the walls 'defending my dodge' i accused you of misrepresenting and used the conversation to illustrate why i was asking you about your line of questioning

to which you continued on your "oh hurr durr DODGING" trollytrack

let me put it to you this way

when, if ever, did you answer the questions in the following two posts

Why? I thought you agreed with her case, wherein I was voting her in terror with my entire scumteam to be rid of her, no?

I don't want to blindsheep my predecessor, and I can't imagine that you want me to go down that path.

although tbh i could and that would save me a lot of work

what was the point of that question?

Like I'm sort of confused considering you had that bit earlier in the game about how you were asking people questions in order to understand their motivations + POV

and then a replacement comes in, asks you a question, and then you sort of snarkily respond with a "oh durrrr i thought you were scumreading me huh? HUH?"

isn't that kind of weird?

because you didn't

and then you tried to get me sidetracked on the defense of something really laughable

like if you were town you should be assembling a series of quotes that shows me dodging anything but instead you continue on this empty rhetoric because you know if you put that series of quotes together ppl will see i didn't actually "dodge" anything

god i'm so sick of that word

[orcinus_theoriginal]

This is TERRIBLE. Why would you do this? Debating gives town info, info gives town viable scumreads, viable scumreads kill scum and make us all happy. I gt it if you don't want to spend your time arguing with Thor (most people don't), but I wouldn't recommend replacing into a game with him in it if you were so dreading that so much. Just tellig someone to stop arguing is a HUGE scum move.

well, no.

in theory this is true but in practice some debates + walls can be just an information overload which makes it harder for town to sift through information and just add noise, even though there is more content

here's a study in this regard if you're interested http://repository.upenn.edu/cgi/viewcon ... ing_papers

[orcinus_theoriginal]

wrong study. here's a newsweek article describing the one i was looking for

http://www.newsweek.com/science-making-decisions-68627

Spoiler: quote from article

In one experiment, M.B.A. students choosing a (make-believe) stock portfolio were divided into two groups, one that was inundated with information from analysts and the financial press, and another that saw only stock-price changes. The latter reaped more than twice the returns of the info-deluged group, whose analytical capabilities were hijacked by too much information and wound up buying and selling on every rumor and tip—a surefire way to lose money in the market. The more data they got, the more they struggled to separate wheat from chaff.

[orcinus_theoriginal]

I didn't actually say I was scum, random. Thor is posturing ie he is saying that I have claimed scum because he thinks I am scum, not actually because I did anything of the sort

[orcinus_theoriginal]

Ok Thor and when you replied to those two questions you lied about what you asked me

Which is what the series of quotes in 329 addresses.

[orcinus_theoriginal]

Last time I played a scumgame without day talk was 2013 I'm pretty sure it's standard

[orcinus_theoriginal]

Incidentally I happen to be allyras replacement so there's that

[orcinus_theoriginal]

Sure

[orcinus_theoriginal]

Hey varsoon let's dance.

Where's your head at

[orcinus_theoriginal]

cool

i've been tryharding and i think thor's scum based on my replace in from page 10

talk to me about how you feel about xiao

[orcinus_theoriginal]

if you really thought i was scum you'd be posting something substantial about me being scum

so you don't think i'm scum

why me/thor/xiao specifically?

[orcinus_theoriginal]

You think

im walking on eggshells

?

That's your assessment of the game state?

Clarify

[orcinus_theoriginal]

Based on interactions in your slots, Orc.
Both Xiao and your slot scumread Thor,
As far as I've read, Thor's been super passive about it,
I was a bit suspicious of your slot's original go-getter activity,
etc.

Vote someone

[orcinus_theoriginal]

Please let me see your true form and not whatever pansy politically correct state you are currently in lol

[orcinus_theoriginal]

I think that is very possible, and the only thing keeping me from thinking that is the case is the "slip" from Orci. I've only been scum a couple times, but how often is QuickThreads used for scum topics? And can the mod tell us if there is daytalk? Or is that all hidden since it's a Normal game?

i always assume daytalk i guess because that's just the mafia environment i experience. the group of players i play with (cabd, fery, etc whatever) all are pretty large proponents of scum daytalk. i mean the assumption might seem strange but i literally cannot remember the last non-bork game that didn't have daytalk

[orcinus_theoriginal]

yeah i can. this is my first game back from a 6 month hiatus and before i left i never actually used a PT. it's not quickthreads, not quicktopic. so since private topics were implemented after i took my leave in may, before that we always used QTs.

my last 4 games

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=44160
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=38561
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=37642
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=37642

all use QTs (since private topics hadn't been implemented yet), all have daytalk (i actually forgot whether teenwolf did or not. i think it did but i can't actually find the QT)

[orcinus_theoriginal]

oh huh that's weird i didn't know tales of you ended up changing into a MS thread

but you can see that the game began as using QTs and then ended up using private threads so I assume that's exactly when the PT was implemented. and since i didn't have a neighborhood or a scumteam in that game i never ended up using that.

[orcinus_theoriginal]

Now fairly certain Thor VS Orcinus is TvT.

i am fairly certain this is not true

what can i do to sell you a vote on thor

i can dance a jig??

[orcinus_theoriginal]

viewtopic.php?f=56&t=44160
viewtopic.php?f=54&t=38561
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=39106
viewtopic.php?f=54&t=37642

fixed

[orcinus_theoriginal]

L-2

what do you think of acryon and zebulin's posts

[orcinus_theoriginal]

i mean the issue i have with you right now are a few
1. unproductive and disingenuous lines of questioning that seems solely geared to get me to unvote when i first replaced in
2. reluctance to engage in conversation
3. i guess the fact that your two scumreads right now are two of the people scumreading you is an added bonus
4. there's a certain amount of cognitive dissonance in your posts. i mean you chide me for talking semantics when it really wasn't semantics, it was you either misphrasing your question or you just trying to deliberately misrep me as "dodging" things. and then the tipping point for my slot being scum again is this idea that i somehow treated my replacement's case strangely, when i've made it perfectly clear how i deal with predecessors cases replacing in and your evidence for the countercase is that i called all's case "good", which again is semantics. there's also this willingness to brand what i do as scummy especially when i think objectively you should not be scumreading me right now. the attack on me dodging question is highly highly questionable. i made it clear the first time that you alleged i dodged a question that i didn't think that's the question you were asking me and i highlighted very specifically why that wasn't the question you were asking me. the second time you accused me of dodging a question (just now), i had made it clear i found your attitude rude and that i didn't do that. so all this seems very disingenuous to me and i will give you the lynch yes i will lynch you

take your pick

i don't OMGUS very often if at all. but since that seems to be a concern of yours, 1. is not OMGUS because i refer to thor's questioning before he started scumreading me, 4. refers pretty heavily to his case on me so you're free to discount that although i think it's pretty strong

i would also add that i actually scumread thor before he scumread me so again my thorscum read is not reflexive

[orcinus_theoriginal]

i can explain 1 and 2 in more detail since it feels like i'll need to

1 when i first replaced in i feel like thor's questioning of me was rather disingenuous. i go over this in detail in 293 but basically i don't think he was trying to learn anything from his questioning, and i think his questions were geared in a way that would allow him to pivot into scumreading me / getting me to move my vote.
-for instance he pressured me a lot on my initial stance on him. why would you pressure a guy who literally just replaced in that way? he doesn't have a solid grasp on what's going on in the game, obviously doesn't have strong scumreads, and is trying to figure stuff out so i mean sure by questioning him on his initial vote you're going to either a) prove that his vote has weak reasoning (no shit he just replaced in) and scumread off that b) get him to unvote and i don't think either of these results speak to a town mindset. For instance if I were town and in thor's position i would ask the replacement for stances on certain cases, which to thor's credit he did, but i just think the line of questioning is really really off.
-this also ties in with the fact that coincidentally there seems to be some element of OMGUS and i don't think that's an element of thor's townplay
2 seems like a strange thing to say but i have an issue with how thor basically ignores my accusations of him. i don't like how he doesn't reply to the bit where i accuse him of misrepresenting his own question 288 and i don't like the sort of condescending brush-off attitude he's taken the entire game against ppl who are scumreading him. so yeah he'll reply in the interest of upholding a facade of replying to accusations but he'll drop a lot of meaningless buzzwords and spin false narratives and it won't seem like he's actually interested in figuring stuff out, just in accusing his own accusers of being scummy in some way

[orcinus_theoriginal]

And just so it's clear where my head is at, I have played with Thor once, I called him scum and tunneled on him hard. Town lynched me for my case on him, and he turned out to be scum. While the general Thor-iness is here, the things that caused me to (correctly) scum-read him there don't appear to be evident this game.

i think i played with thor once on one of my first games onsite and i caught him as scum so we are in the same club

i felt proud enough at the time to put a quote from him in my wiki

L-2

what do you think of acryon and zebulin's posts

In general or specific ones?

i mean the ones on the last page i suppose?

i mean the issue i have with you right now are a few
1. unproductive and disingenuous lines of questioning that seems solely geared to get me to unvote when i first replaced in
2. reluctance to engage in conversation
3. i guess the fact that your two scumreads right now are two of the people scumreading you is an added bonus
4. there's a certain amount of cognitive dissonance in your posts. i mean you chide me for talking semantics when it really wasn't semantics, it was you either misphrasing your question or you just trying to deliberately misrep me as "dodging" things. and then the tipping point for my slot being scum again is this idea that i somehow treated my replacement's case strangely, when i've made it perfectly clear how i deal with predecessors cases replacing in and your evidence for the countercase is that i called all's case "good", which again is semantics. there's also this willingness to brand what i do as scummy especially when i think objectively you should not be scumreading me right now. the attack on me dodging question is highly highly questionable. i made it clear the first time that you alleged i dodged a question that i didn't think that's the question you were asking me and i highlighted very specifically why that wasn't the question you were asking me. the second time you accused me of dodging a question (just now), i had made it clear i found your attitude rude and that i didn't do that. so all this seems very disingenuous to me and i will give you the lynch yes i will lynch you

take your pick

i don't OMGUS very often if at all. but since that seems to be a concern of yours, 1. is not OMGUS because i refer to thor's questioning before he started scumreading me, 4. refers pretty heavily to his case on me so you're free to discount that although i think it's pretty strong

i would also add that i actually scumread thor before he scumread me so again my thorscum read is not reflexive

Just to clarify, I wasn't accusing you of OMGUS. Disliking a case is a perfectly reasonable thing, but I'd prefer to hear your more subjective reasons since you're obviously too close to that case.

Regarding your points:
1. Is it possible he is just a very controlling player (he is), and tries to push people onto his way of thinking as any alignment (he does)?
2. Part of this is most likely attributed to 1., but what points specifically, do you think he is avoiding that show scum-motivation?
3. This happens as town.
4. This is by far the most valuable point. Do you think Thor's aggression toward you/evident desire to paint you as scum are the result of a strong personal belief that you are scum. If Thor is the player described in 1., wouldn't it make sense for him to make some questionable decisions and comments for the sake of pushing a wagon he believes to be holding scum?

1. i mean ok but the problem i have is that he isn't exhibiting a "way of thinking". he's not trying to figure stuff out. he's used his posts as a pivot to transition into "scumread orc" or "get orc to unvote" and i just don't see why someone who talks a lot about engagement would do that
2. not trying to figure stuff out is scum
3. yeah which is why i said "added bonus". it's a weak point
4. i don't think so because it doesn't fit in with the "allyra's replacement rang to me as town" narrative he's tried to tell. so just to be clear the story right now is a) thor unvoted allyra because he thought replacement was townish b) thor (from my POV) questioned me in order to get me to unvote him or create a point by which he could scumread me c) i express my explicit desire to lynch thor in 300 and he scumreads and votes me in the next post, an hour later. so alongside the fact that the aggression began before c) (ergo, thor was doing this BEFORE he developed a "strong personal belief that i am scum"), i just don't think this trajectory makes sense.

i mean i conjecture that thor thought he'd get townpoints for the unvote on the very townish meltdown and then set up the pivot as described above to scumread me if i scumread him, which is what ended up happening. but that's just narrative spinning

[orcinus_theoriginal]

thanks yo

i'm out for the day, don't hammer without a claim.

if he claims a PR we should talk a bit about whether or not a real PR should counterclaim

[orcinus_theoriginal]

what an interesting hammer

and what an absurd 180 in boonskies reads

[orcinus_theoriginal]

boonskiies trajectory on thor makes all of zero sense, looking back at his ISO

going to put up a reads list real quick

damnit guys i said i'd be out today

[orcinus_theoriginal]

lean town (in this order)
xiao long
rando if thor flips scum
acryon
BBT
Zebulin

don't care for
goblin
drake crusader
rando if thor flips town
gamsimbre

konowa is like kind of null scum but that's jut because i haven't been giving him attention

scum:
varsoon
boonskiies?

[orcinus_theoriginal]

xiao i think varsoon needs to be looked at really closely

[orcinus_theoriginal]

Unfortunately, this is the kind of crap that got him lynched in the last game we played together, and he was town.

rofl. link please. i'll look at it tomorrow if i'm still alive

[orcinus_theoriginal]

Unfortunately, this is the kind of crap that got him lynched in the last game we played together, and he was town.

rofl. link please. i'll look at it tomorrow if i'm still alive

hang on.

if you have this experience with boon in the past, why didn't you warn us that he pulls this kind of crap?

[orcinus_theoriginal]

or if he's town acting that way because he knows he can get away with it.

why would he have reason to think this

[orcinus_theoriginal]

no i think varsoon is scum for being disconnected and meek and etc etc

i just don't recall him acting like this as town ever

i'm trying to figure out whether or not this is due to vars and i not being in a game with other really hyperactive posters, or if this is actually just simply varsoon scum

so i need to know if varsoon has played town games like this before

[orcinus_theoriginal]

no that's what i'm saying, because i wonder if his lack of activity here is because of the lack of hyperactive posters

and when i say hyperactive posters i mean that i have the highest number of posts despite being a replacement and there's a whole group of people like me

[orcinus_theoriginal]

boon

i realize that you and i live in different worlds

in your world, through your lenses, where are people calling thor town?

[orcinus_theoriginal]

you are also doing an excellent job of excusing me from having to write a case to policy lynch you

[orcinus_theoriginal]

just ignore boon

i want to policy lynch him because http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... start=2125 I remember what happened last time i let stupid live to lylo

[orcinus_theoriginal]

Ever think I might have a fucking role that causes me to auto hammer?

Don't put him to L-1 if you don't want someone to hammer.

Huh? Is that an actual thing? I still don't know all the roles in mafia.

this is not an actual thing

like it would be such a stupid role because there's no way for anybody to see if boon is actually online

[orcinus_theoriginal]

I'm not even calling you scum for hammering him, either (though the way you did it was suspect).

That's the problem. There is actually a good chance boon is town, but he is making our job harder by doing things that are anti-town.

please

for the love of all that Tales of The Abyss has taught us

just lynch him

[orcinus_theoriginal]

you want to talk making it harder for us to win?

if boon is scum, lynching him is the correct action

if boon is town and we don't lynch him, he will live to lylo

do you want boon to decide town's fate at lylo?

no i really didn't think so

[orcinus_theoriginal]

i mean if you agree he shouldn't live to lylo that means we have to lynch him at one point or another

so why lynch late instead of early?

[orcinus_theoriginal]

zzzz

i mean if you really want to wait to ascertain that he is in fact anti-town sure, but i mean with this hammer and alleged prior play like this i don't think we need to?

xiao and acry what does your scumlist look like

[orcinus_theoriginal]

interesting NK that we are not going to talk about

VOTE: varsoon

[orcinus_theoriginal]

We're thinking 3 scum right?

[orcinus_theoriginal]

Oh for the love of god.

[orcinus_theoriginal]

then why are you voting me

[orcinus_theoriginal]

DO YOU THINK I BUSSED THOR

[orcinus_theoriginal]

I'm scared to ask why.

Hearing the answer might kill me.

[orcinus_theoriginal]

why?

[orcinus_theoriginal]

Yeah it's what scum theater looks like

Zeb come vote varsoon with me!!

[orcinus_theoriginal]

Nailed it.

Allyra bussed Thor so hard she got an aneurysm and ragequit

And then I continued the tradition because Thor is a huge liability on my scum team right

[orcinus_theoriginal]

I mean or you could vote varsoon for this page

It's up to you man

[orcinus_theoriginal]

Allyra bussed Thor based on a second-level scum entry and tried to play straight-faced.
The replace-out fits that MO.

When you got in, Thor was swirling down the drain.

:3

Do you believe in what you are writing or are you trying to get a rise out of me

[orcinus_theoriginal]

BOTH

I'll burn you with my fiery wrath of town

[orcinus_theoriginal]

here is a list of who is town and who is like not town based on thor flip

town:
xiao long
acryon
Zebulin (switch makes no sense from scum POV)
BBT (thor interactions make this obvious)
i am loathe to put boonskiies here but maybe that's just because i think hes a PL

everyone else: not town

i'm also just going to stress that BBT is town town town due to thor interactions

[orcinus_theoriginal]

If we lynch off the Thor wagon, then:
Who?

I mean my vote is on you buddy

[orcinus_theoriginal]

acryon

varsoon vote

please TT

[orcinus_theoriginal]

Orc

Do something useful with your vote.

i mean when you post air like this, it enforces my belief that my vote is, in fact, useful

[orcinus_theoriginal]

YOU CALLED ME SCUM AND NOT SCUM

IN THE SAME POST

WITHIN TWO NONQUOTE LINES FROM EACH OTHER

YELLING!!!

[orcinus_theoriginal]

if Boon is scum, he is pretty bad.

ding

in other news VOTE: boonskiies

what are we doing about lurkers

[orcinus_theoriginal]

Thor is someone who I always initially read as town for the sole fact everyone else is going against him

you...what?

[orcinus_theoriginal]

why do you townread popular scumspects?

[orcinus_theoriginal]

what on earth is going on in this game

[orcinus_theoriginal]

i'd like to make a very important announcement

whoever unvotes boonskiies is a chicken

pedit gotem boys

[orcinus_theoriginal]

I really hate that I'm town reading Orc.

can you explain to me a bit more why you're scumreading chicken?

i mean he sort of spent last bit of d1 explaining why i shouldn't policy lynch you

[orcinus_theoriginal]

do you think survivalism is a scum marker?

[orcinus_theoriginal]

I am not entertaining acryon scum at this point in time

[orcinus_theoriginal]

Should I be skeptical of town reads?

I mean occasionally I have reason to be skeptical of town reads but I don't think this is one of those times?

[orcinus_theoriginal]

if my slot is scum then i have never seen a bus of this calibre

[orcinus_theoriginal]

allyra

ragequit

from this game because of her argument with thor

[orcinus_theoriginal]

ehhh

sure, i guess.

i mean there still isn't much point in asking why he's townreading me. objectively speaking i don't think it's unreasonable to assume i wasn't bussing thor

[orcinus_theoriginal]

why do you feel disconnectd? spell it out sorry

[orcinus_theoriginal]

i mean sure but now she's gone and i think i'm an improvement so hello?

[orcinus_theoriginal]

Bbt is screaming his alignment and its town.

[orcinus_theoriginal]

I would but then I'd be voting the same person varsoon is voting and I don't feel comfortable doing that yet

[orcinus_theoriginal]

I mean probably but varsoon is still probably scum and I don't like the feeling of this vote

Can we not vote konowa

[orcinus_theoriginal]

can you rephrase this post, i don't understand what you're trying to say

[orcinus_theoriginal]

konowa my problem with you is that it doesn't feel like you're trying to get back into the game

it's a small problem but it's still a problem!

[orcinus_theoriginal]

Town varsoon would be trying to calm his friend down

Hmm

[orcinus_theoriginal]

Xiao self voted 728

[orcinus_theoriginal]

I'm projecting what I think you should be doing as town onto your actions here.

Doesn't that bother you?

[orcinus_theoriginal]

Meh

I'm ambivalent between goblin, drake, gamsimbre, boon

Like they could all collectively get nightkilled and I wouldn't bat an eye

[orcinus_theoriginal]

Why goblin over the other three?

[orcinus_theoriginal]

I like gam better for scum because it's not Thor's MO to completely ignore his scumbuddies

[orcinus_theoriginal]

VOTE: gam

[orcinus_theoriginal]

VOTE: varsoon

you are sheeping me way too easily

[orcinus_theoriginal]

and that direction is goblin, so why did you vote gam?

[orcinus_theoriginal]

Acryon, you're a cool bro, even if you're a scummie.
:3


Konowa
Goblin
BBT
Boon
Drake
Gamsimbre.


Around BBT/Boon is where I start to waffle/feel more null than scum.

i mean gam is not high on your prio list at all!

[orcinus_theoriginal]

yes

i didn't actually know gam was the lowest on varsoon's list but it was definitely a great bonus point for varsoon scum

varsoon is scum

bbt if you trust me and if you love me plase don't vote konowa and vote varsoon instead

[orcinus_theoriginal]

he sheeped me, he shot me into a scumpile without actually scumreading me, and his interactions with xiao are incredibly off

i don't think about the drake slot like what the hell am i supposed to think haha

[orcinus_theoriginal]

I mean I don't really care at this point

Head before the ass

Let me love you. Let me guide you. Lynch varsoon.

[orcinus_theoriginal]

I disagree I think survivalism is not exclusively a scum marker. Town PR fit into that mold as well. Nothing else addressed to me that I saw. Come vote varsoon!

[orcinus_theoriginal]

I mean sheeping isn't a scum tell for BBT but I think a lack of conviction in your scum reads is a scum tell for you

[orcinus_theoriginal]

You said me/thor/xiao have one scum

That's a scumpile

But you were not scum reading me when you said that!

[orcinus_theoriginal]

Former fish there is definitely a disconnect between what you wrote about varsoon and the pile you ended up putting him in.

Elaborate on that please

[orcinus_theoriginal]

Fish, describe the process by which you wrote #800

[orcinus_theoriginal]

I guess. The weird thing is that you didn't notice allyra replaced out, but you had allyra roughly in the middle of the wall and above allyra you referenced a lot of future posts

So i'm just curious how that happened

[orcinus_theoriginal]

Incidentally BBT is supertown and superwrong because BBT/Thor interactions make no sense from a scum/scum standpoint so just slap him into a townpile and ignore him for the rest of the game

[orcinus_theoriginal]

like thor doing exactly what BBT is doing to you is what tipped me off that thor was scum

but it's not a scumtell in this case because i don't think BBT realizes some of the nuances of how to deal with replacements

My experience with Varsoon comes from Touhou, where we were both town. I feel like reading his posts this game that I see the exact same thing I did that game. If it makes a difference, he was even getting scum reads in that game for his play. Mostly I would say that this is a strong gut read.

you don't read varsoon by comparing what he does to other, normal players.

you read varsoon through extensive meta and comparison to his own games

i mean this is varsoon we're talking about here, shit's crazy

[orcinus_theoriginal]

I feel like reading his posts this game that

I see the exact same thing I did

that game

you are comparing varsoon to your towngame and giving varsoon a townread off that

you can't do that

you can't compare varsoon to anybody but varsoon

[orcinus_theoriginal]

pedit- show me why its tvt. BBT got one over on me last game we played together, I'm not so willing to just slap him with anything.

show you what as tvt?

[orcinus_theoriginal]

In that case you should've written "I see the exact thing I saw that game" since "did' is grammatically incorrect because you're concatenating "did see" which is actually just "saw"

[orcinus_theoriginal]

Thor might be Scum for all the typos in that last post.

a reminder that grammatical correctness is, indeed, alignment indicative.

[orcinus_theoriginal]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p6416704

this back and forth strongly suggests tvs

[orcinus_theoriginal]

Or do you think otherwise?

[orcinus_theoriginal]

you know what's really ironic

BBTs argument for thorscum is basically a meta argument since it relies on the meta of "thor policy lynches BBT" (which isn't a correct meta but ok whatever that's how he perceives it)

haha?

[orcinus_theoriginal]

i think bussing is a stretch because of how personal and convicted BBT felt in his case

[orcinus_theoriginal]

is bbt actually a good player?

[orcinus_theoriginal]

He snowed the fuck out of town in Robbery at the Casino.

god

damnit

you know what i fucking want for christmas

i just want one stupid newbie who wears his alignment on his sleeve and who i don't have to :effort: in reading

just one

just one fucking newbie per game

[orcinus_theoriginal]

Regodless, Orc's push on me is pathetic and weird, so I'll ignore it forever. :3

PAY ATTENTION TO ME YOU FUCKER

[orcinus_theoriginal]

Try to argue professionally, please.

hello my name is orci i'm a professional arguer

[orcinus_theoriginal]

don't lynch boon

boon: replace out (preferred) or sheep your strongest town read. don't pull this shit again.

[orcinus_theoriginal]

then you have an easy choice, don't you

pedit holy fuck varsoon shut the FUCK up

[orcinus_theoriginal]

that's not even fucking close to what konowa was saying

[orcinus_theoriginal]

my vote is staying on you for the rest of hte day

[orcinus_theoriginal]

Not dealing with this shit tonight.

Ive also waiting for varsoon to vote me for a very very long time so tomorrow I'm going to figure out what it means

[orcinus_theoriginal]

Why don't you wall me you cowardly wanker

Huh?

Huh???

[orcinus_theoriginal]

Not of that makes sense.

I feel you.

[orcinus_theoriginal]

How's it going buddy

[orcinus_theoriginal]

das me

[orcinus_theoriginal]

kinda tipsy

i'm waffling on varsoon, had a strong scumread on him

i have a townread on BBT because refusal to give out reads list is something i do and i don't know if he's trying to manipulate me, and i think his interactions with thor seem pretty townish, and i think the only thing that bugs me about BBT is all the while i'm hard defending him he hasn't said a word to/about me and that's kinda weird

my most confident reads are xiao, acryon town. zeb is a tier below that, and bbt is now a tier below zeb.

i need to decide how i feel about konowa pretty soon

boon is obnoxious but he dropped a trust tell so whatever

[orcinus_theoriginal]

Cabd actually is that slippery. If I had any confidence in my ability to read Cabd, I would do the same.

To take this a little further, this resonates with me because keeping scumreads hidden from Scumrir is a very good idea. Someone once pointed out during a replace in wall I was making that I sounded too certain and aggressive, which used to be markers of my scum game. I turned on a dime and started sounding really unsure of myself the moment this was said. Somehow, nobody noticed, and I believe I survived that game. And I think Cabd plays similarly, if more subtly.

[orcinus_theoriginal]

rofl thor

[orcinus_theoriginal]

boon is a village idiot

he random lol-hammered thor, proceeded to self-vote, drop trust tells, and vote me

unfortunately we have to keep him around because he's actually town but just ignore him

ty

[orcinus_theoriginal]

i also said to ignore boon before he voted me so this isn't due to omgus

[orcinus_theoriginal]

i literally sat with my hand on my dick and the wagon disappeared god DAMN this is awesome

on a serious note i'm vla until friday, finals crunch time

[orcinus_theoriginal]

I believe we spoke earlier in the day. I'm pretty sure you're town and you seem set on lynching Varsoon today. I'm not sure that's what I want to do and am therefore pursuing other avenues. It would be just fantastic if you could vote Fish.

it would be sure but i have a townread on fish and you don't have a scumread on varsoon so why aren't you reaching out to me? D:

[orcinus_theoriginal]

ok so we're lynching drake instead

VOTE: drake

killerjester i'm flattered you chose to follow the varsoonscum line of thinking but i like drake for scum a bit more and i'm getting cold feet on the varsoon wagon!

[orcinus_theoriginal]

I mean. I see where you're coming from. But is this really the time to be chasing after lurkscum? Be reasonable orc.

I know but i feel really comfortable with this vote and i'm having worlds of trouble reading varsoon right now for whatever reason

i will go back to varsoon later i promise

[orcinus_theoriginal]

probably town? what would you rather have him do

[orcinus_theoriginal]

it was an incredibly bad joke and it was not shipped like a joke

[orcinus_theoriginal]

Mostly

your weird play

.

rofl

[orcinus_theoriginal]

hold the course boys

lynch drake

[orcinus_theoriginal]

misrepping and general silliness is not a scumtell for varsoon, unfortunately.

[orcinus_theoriginal]

killer is not scum and i'm starting to see scum intent in your pushes

[orcinus_theoriginal]

if i were terrible at reading you then i would be voting you. reassessing is a thing.

i disagree with what you're doing because your reasoning is weak and specious. i think it's scummy because i'm not sure why you have been pushing literally the two towniest people in this thread today

[orcinus_theoriginal]

Uuuuuggggh.
Ugggh.
Ugh.
Screw all you guys.
VOTE: drake

[orcinus_theoriginal]

if i was scum this game i deserve a scummy

unfortunately i am not scum and thus do not deserve a scummy

[orcinus_theoriginal]

death, give me my salvation

[orcinus_theoriginal]

as a general rule of thumb don't stall out days for too long, otherwise town is prone to apathy

[orcinus_theoriginal]

it's also a very good lynch right now

[orcinus_theoriginal]

town
xiao
acryon
zebulin
killerjester
boonskiies
formerfish

probabletown
bbt
god help me but varsoon is here as well

actually my townlist is too big and i have to reevaluate.

[orcinus_theoriginal]

my heart does not believe in this wagon.

[orcinus_theoriginal]

i mean we literally just forced drake to claim

[orcinus_theoriginal]

YES?

[orcinus_theoriginal]

no

[orcinus_theoriginal]

boonskiies dropped trust tells and i'm wliling to accept that

[orcinus_theoriginal]

also the self vote was pretty townie

[orcinus_theoriginal]

after the game, otherwise mods would be affirming his alignment

[orcinus_theoriginal]

yes.

[orcinus_theoriginal]

depending on the moderator. in the past practice has been to ban after the person has died in the game. in any event this is a boring line of hypotheticals and i'd rather we play mafia

[orcinus_theoriginal]

i think they're all right. i know some players when they play town expect others to think the same way as them, so maybe this is where misgivigns are coming from

[orcinus_theoriginal]

you're crazy

[orcinus_theoriginal]

Has not happened. Phone posting at lunch, final in 3 hr, drinking until tomorrow, then I fly back to China and then I'll probably make some cases here

When I declared VLA in thread a while ago that was supposed to mean a VLA from effort and substance which is what you've been seeing

[orcinus_theoriginal]

content tomorrow

just landed, exhausted, stressed, and intoxicated

[orcinus_theoriginal]

am i a god?

[orcinus_theoriginal]

fish
xiao
killerjester


^^LITERALLY NEVER LYNCH

town

acryon, zeb, varsoon, BBT

[orcinus_theoriginal]

boonskiies goes in town category as well

last scum is probably konowa

if last scum is konowa allyra literally nailed 2/3 scum before ragequitting what a hero

[orcinus_theoriginal]

if drake flips town don't trust my townlist. fish, xiao, kj are town no matter what (in that order of certainty)

acryon might be snowing me really hard but i doubt it.

[orcinus_theoriginal]

oh shit sorry varsoon might be scum for that hammer

so konowa and varsoon is where my guess for last scum is at. if those two don't work out we have 3 mislynches to spare, so i think konowa->varsoon->bbt->acryon??? will win us game easily

[orcinus_theoriginal]

hmmm actually reread thread. let me make a few adjustments to my reads list

i'm not comfortable enough with xiao pushing BBT and handwaving the drake wagon in order to put him in that first pile. it's possible (very very likely in fact) that he was just wrong about his reads but i'm going to downgrade him a bit

boon is actually really town and i just forgot about him when i was drawing up my list at first. fish and killerjester are my rocks of this game and i'd be floored if either of those two were scum.

so boon, fish, killerjester are do not lynch

xiao, acryon, zeb, bbt are my townpile in that order of strength. acryon is actually pretty high up there, i'm not terribly concerned about him. tbh i'd probably only reevaluate that read if konowa and varsoon yield 0 scum, which to me would be surprising

and of course rounding up the list are konowa and varsoon in that order.

Uuuuuggggh.
Ugggh.
Ugh.
Screw all you guys.
VOTE: drake

[orcinus_theoriginal]

also if drake flips scum, doc should be on me, fish or kj tonight (this is what i do as town i call doc targets see advance wars)

if he flips town then do whatever

[orcinus_theoriginal]

consider

massclaiming tomorrow if drake is scum

consider

it.