Mini 1632 - Zar's Holiday Bash - Mardi Gras Showdown - Over!

[TheDudeAbides]

Vincero is scum.

Vote: Vincero

[TheDudeAbides]

BP is vincero's buddy.

[TheDudeAbides]

BP is vincero's buddy.

Awful quick to try to make accusatory connections isn't it?

But not wrong it seems.

And Reinoe is town.

[TheDudeAbides]

Vincero is on hold for now. if you really want me to answer those questions, I will, but I don't think that you'll appreciate the answer.

Madonna, Silverspawn and Aeronaut are all town.
Reinoe has stopped appearing like town. He appears like he wants us to know that he is doing work.

Howl noting Vincero's overreaction to my vote, but not voting him at this early stage, makes me suspicious of Howl (which is a shame because he should be with me in Rockland).

Garmr is also a decent choice for scum:

VOTE: silverspawn for reasons....

Were you planning on mentioning that that's L-1?

Is it?
I just was random voting, whoever posted 5th after my first vote was all.

I'm curious why do you feel the need to explain yourself in detail. You could just say I was rvsing.

Also Its l-3

Here he tries to cast suspicion onto geraintm for over-explaining himself.

*silverspawn, why have you changed your vote 6 times in two pages?

Like are those people scumreads for you are are you just arbitrarily voting?

Oh, is that not something you do on this forum? throwing with votes around in the beginning?

and, obviously none of them was serious.

It is we call it rvs random voting stage and areo should of known that.

Here he tries to cast suspicion onto aeronaut for faking a lack of knowledge.

Both over-explaining and faking lack lack of knowledge are pretty fair scum-tells to use at this stage of the game. It's a safe play by Garmr to use them. This would be completely null if I thought that Garmr's suspicions were honest. However, Garmr has kept his vote on Silverspawn through all of this, so I don't.

Unvote
Vote Garmr

[TheDudeAbides]

I see that howl is already voting for Silverspawn for a reason, so I'm no longer bothered by him at all.

[TheDudeAbides]

So your case on me is I'm pointing out scummy things because it the safest thing for scum to do is kinda a weird approach. Also it's not like silver is going to get lynched right now so I am in no rush to move my vote and I won't be lynched today either so yeah lol.

A weird approach, what do you think scum is likely to do?
Do you think that scum is likely to come out of the gate playing like Silverspawn, what do you think if Reinoe's comment about his meta?

[TheDudeAbides]

Did you expect me to ask for links and then not follow up on said information?

No. I was reacting to the amount that you posted.

[TheDudeAbides]

Garmr-1 Dude-0

I'm not sure why you think there is some sort of competition between us.

But what is it exactly that you think you got out of Gerantim?

[TheDudeAbides]

The specific example I'm looking at is 59 where TDA outright states that Madonna, Silverspawn, and Aeronaut are all town. This is after outright stating that Reinoe is town in a previous post, and ourright stating that BP and I are scumbuddies. Maybe it's just my opinion, but I don't like how people can get away with simply asserting that someone is town or someone is scum without explanation. It leads to them being able to get away with a lot of accusations that could lead to mislynches and it allows them to protect potential buddies by claiming them as town.

I don't think that you need to worry about this just yet.
Courage.

I mean, really, there wasn't all that much there to say at the time.

[TheDudeAbides]

Reinoe seems town Even through I can't see the thing he put up it's the fact his putting in work. Shows his thinking and that's town for him.

Where are you getting you meta on Reinoe from?

Because I looked at this game,
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=58773
and I think it doesn't jive with your idea of his meta.

[TheDudeAbides]

Are you saying that Aero is scummy for being afraid to vote?

No, what I meant with that quote were my RVS quotes.

ehh *votes

What would the point of doing this have been?

[TheDudeAbides]

So what is your scum meta of him?

[TheDudeAbides]

More info than what you would of got out of it. If I didn't ask him about it and just voted how do you think he would of reacted personally I think he wouldn't of said anything and it wouldn't have put to much pressure on him.

This is a non-answer.

[TheDudeAbides]

I don't know what he would have done.

You seem to think that you got something out of the exchange. I want to know what.

[TheDudeAbides]

I haven't had to much experience with him but from what I have and the quick checks in the past he plays scum badly.

So you don't think that he would try to improve his scum game then?

Where does your town meta of him come from?

[TheDudeAbides]

Also what did you expect for that question.

A description of what you got from your interaction with him.
This isn't complicated.

[TheDudeAbides]

Dude, why are you defending him against garmr's questioning?

I don't think I'm defending him. What gives you that idea? I really want to know what Garmr thinks that he got out of it, since he's made a big deal over it.

[TheDudeAbides]

I haven't had to much experience with him but from what I have and the quick checks in the past he plays scum badly.

So you don't think that he would try to improve his scum game then?

Where does your town meta of him come from?

I do think he would but I don't think he has it in him just yet. So in short he has to find his flaws in his scum game.

Also where they come from ongoing games I don't want to get banned for talking about.

There don't appear to be any on going games with both you and a town-flipped Reinoe.

[TheDudeAbides]

But it feels like it. Your questions are soft and pointless.

Garmr made a big deal out of what he got out of the exchange.

Garmr's also claimed a meta read on Reinoe.

I think both of these claims need justification.

I don't think that this is soft or pointless.

[TheDudeAbides]

Why are you defending Garmr?

[TheDudeAbides]

I'm voting him and I'm questioning him on things I are bothering me. I'm happy with that for now.

I'd like to know what made you think I was defending Gerantim.

[TheDudeAbides]

Because from where im sitting, it looked like you were trying to bail him out from under the microscope

This is how I feel about what you are doing regarding my questioning of Garmr.

[TheDudeAbides]

No, at best, it would be null. At the moment, I have a hard time believing Garmr's town-meta read on Reinoe.

At the moment, I care more about the fact that you accused me of defending someone and then did the same thing regarding some I am questioning.

[TheDudeAbides]

Well you'll just have to either get over it or argue with me about it.

There's really nothing to argue about.

[TheDudeAbides]

*weeps*

[TheDudeAbides]

I've played with T S O, serra, BP, you and Garmr.
I looked at the Reinoe game that had Reinoe and Aeronaut in it.

[TheDudeAbides]

I don't know if that post is meant as a subtle hint or if you're simply oblivious.

[TheDudeAbides]

I'm an alt.

[TheDudeAbides]

I've played with T S O, serra, BP, you and Garmr.
I looked at the Reinoe game that had Reinoe and Aeronaut in it.

When the fuck did I play with you

I'd prefer to not say, since it will almost certainly give away who I am.

[TheDudeAbides]

No.

[TheDudeAbides]

Oh Kuribo, just go look at Reinoe's active games where he's flipped and realize that Garmr is lying about his meta read. Then vote him. Once he flips scum, I'll be obv. town. That's a much better idea.

[TheDudeAbides]

That's foolish of you.

[TheDudeAbides]

Im handing you scum on a platter. You should seriously go take a look.

[TheDudeAbides]

Kuribo, go look. It's quite cut and dry.

[TheDudeAbides]

I'm not making the case of being a good player and I don't care to.

I am good enough to check when someone's justification for a read makes no sense.
You should be that good too.

[TheDudeAbides]

Ok, Kuribo is refusing to scum hunt and he's deciding to ad hom me rather than check what I'm saying, so he's probably scum too.

[TheDudeAbides]

lol I'm refusing to scum hunt because I won't sheep you?


Get the fuck out

I didn't say that, but nice misrep.

[TheDudeAbides]

Dude how is it you're worried about garm but you don't give a fuck about garethia or whatever casting a "random vote" on the biggest wagon?

I think that Garmr making up reasons for a read is scummier.

[TheDudeAbides]

And you have no problem with silver spawn asking for a free pass with the newb card?

I took that as a joke.

And didn't bother to question me when I posted four names and said one is scum? You don't give a shit about explanations. Are you bussing garm? Is that it? You can tell me, I won't hurt you. I'll just string you from a fucking rope.

I thought that I'd wait to see what they had to say first.

[TheDudeAbides]

Reinoe seems town Even through I can't see the thing he put up it's the fact his putting in work. Shows his thinking and that's town for him.

Where are you getting you meta on Reinoe from?

Because I looked at this game,
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=58773
and I think it doesn't jive with your idea of his meta.

Phone posting @work

I'm still reviewing that first game silver spawn linked to but...

I think it's really sleazy of TDA to pull up that game. I only joined that game because of the title: Completely Ridiculous Mafia. I then role played a completely ridiculous persona. I even said so in that game.

It's also sleazy because that's not the most recent game I completed. As TSO can attest, because we played in NY177 together. Also NY177 is more recent and NY177 I am playing similarly there and here. Also in 177 I was town and serious. Also, since TDA played with me in marathoRn games, I WAS super serious in one and I was also town.

So TDA is ignoring the more recent game and referencing the older game. An older game where I was role playing a persona. And he's also ignoring the Marathon game we played together.

TDA I need an explanation.

I read that game for fun. It's the only meta I had on you. It contradicted what Garmr thought of you, so I asked him about his town meta on you. I didn't find the game by going out and searching for meta on you.

[TheDudeAbides]

Furthermore, sheeping kuribo's ass would not be acceptable even if this was waynegg - policy lynches out of vindictive spite aren't part of my gameplan, sorry.

If this is waynegg all his going to do all game is try to discredit every fucking post I make. Even if I work fucking 3-4 hours for one post he will say it's garbage and not thought out. He is toxic all he'll do is focus on me all game death tunnel style and he won't give opinions about others. This is typical wayne gg behavior it's already starting. This slot needs to die.

I'm not wayne.

[TheDudeAbides]

Also, since TDA played with me in marathoRn games,

I don't think this is the case.

[TheDudeAbides]

At first I discounted the gera business because there is a rather straightforward narrative that I think justifies the sequence of events, the problem that I have now is that I'm not seeing evidence of that in his responses.

[TheDudeAbides]

Despite the kuriboxTDA face-off, I am leery of the TDA wagon because of vincero, the Garmr voters are probably legit, . . .

Can you say what was going through your mind when you wrote this?

[TheDudeAbides]

Also, I'm not AP.

[TheDudeAbides]

No one has mentioned by main yet, but I'm going to stop addressing guesses about my main. If you want to continue, I don't care, but I'll be ignoring them.

Do people not get geraintm's RVS?

What is there to get?

I like the Dude checking up on reinoe's meta loads.

Why this, but Reinoe looking at SilverSpawn is weird?

Reinoe's self-meta in 218 is bad.

Is there something wrong with it in particular? Or is this just a blanket - self-meta is bad, statement.

You want to know whats getting to me I'm going to get this off my chest. When I'm fucking hunting scum I get some ****wit blocking my interrogation and then I start getting scum reads because this **** wit blocked my investigation. It irritates to NO FUCKING END. Then his up himself saying shit well i be confirmed town when garmr flips scum well guess what **** wit I'm going to flip town.

I just want to use my one shot and then tomorrow I don't care if I get lynched.

After your Garmr 1, TDA 0 bullshit, your whining here is ridiculous.

Whether or not his meta-read is justified

I don't have a meta read on anyone?

[TheDudeAbides]

Serra, you can decide for yourself. Go click on that game and see if it matches with Reinoe's play here. It won't. Reinoe has basically already said that himself. I'm not using to form a read on Reinoe.

[TheDudeAbides]

At first I discounted the gera business because there is a rather straightforward narrative that I think justifies the sequence of events, the problem that I have now is that I'm not seeing evidence of that in his responses.

What is the "straightforward narrative" that you thought was there?

So, let's assume that Gera was paying some attention to the votes, but not enough to actually count them. Then he probably felt that no one was close to a lynch. This is usually the level of care with voting that I have in RVS, and I expect others do too. So when saw this:

VOTE: silverspawn for reasons....

Were you planning on mentioning that that's L-1?

which came about 4 minutes after his vote, his first thought probably was that it wasn't, he posts:

VOTE: silverspawn for reasons....

Were you planning on mentioning that that's L-1?

Is it?
I just was random voting, whoever posted 5th after my first vote was all.

This is fine, except then I'd expect him to go back and count the votes, or just go back and see

VOTE: silverspawn for reasons....

Were you planning on mentioning that that's L-1?

Strike that, I forgot which game I was in

At this moment, he would know that it wasn't an L-1 vote.

The problem that I have is that his defense has focussed on why he explained his vote, rather than on the fact that his vote was an RVS vote that no one should have had an issue with in the first place.

[TheDudeAbides]

@dude: I've checked that game, but that one game really isn't enough to draw any conclusions about whether Garmr's metaing on reinoe was legit. What you'd actually need to do is find a scum game in which reinoe shows the sort of thinking Garmr is using to town-read him, and then argue that Garmr would have found the same game AND decided to ignore it to support his read. And even then you've only proved that Garmr is either scum, or just not very good at metaing people.

My purpose was to have a discussion about Reinoe's meta, but that seems like it's impossible to do with Garmr.

[TheDudeAbides]

My personal belief is that there simply isn't enough stuff in this game to draw any conclusions about anyone based on meta yet.

Regarding Reinoe, someone in the Ridiculous Mafia game said that he intentionally plays differently each game to make meta-ing him difficult. Assuming that's true, I don't think this won't be a useful approach in reading him. That was one of the reasons I called Garmr out on his read in the first place.

[TheDudeAbides]

I don't this would be a useful approach . . .

[TheDudeAbides]

I'm used to doing cases based on meta

So why do you criticize reinoe inefficient scum hunting?

[TheDudeAbides]

I kind of feel like silverspawn is just talking about stuff that he probably thinks as either alignment - I use meta, I don't like alts, soft-claims are stupid.
The only think there that seems specific to this game is his read on Serra, which he should probably be more detailed about.

[TheDudeAbides]

Serra's is somewhat questionable.

- She was initially town reading Silverspawn based on him being new, but when it was pointed out to her that he's not new, she brushed off his experience as not mattering much.

- Her defense of Gera makes little sense to me. There's nothing in his defense that I wouldn't expect him to say as either alignment, and it's missing what I would have expected to see in it if he was town.

- thinking that kuribo is probably town.

[TheDudeAbides]

Unvote

Garmr, when does your action resolve?

[TheDudeAbides]

More specifically?
At Garmr.

[TheDudeAbides]

This is a prod-dodge.
I think I should be able to post within 48 hours.

[TheDudeAbides]

More specifically?
At Garmr.

Did Garmr ever respond to this?

he also isn't resorting to meta reads, which is a major point for him,

Why?

I feel like serra dropped a town tell, the existence of which is only ever acknowledged by DGB and myself.

Which town-tell is this?

If you want, you can just quote the post that contains it.

gera I don't like, I didn't like that he "just happened" to "random vote" the biggest wagon

You should have dropped this by now.
There's a 5 in Gera's first post, and look who made the 5th post after that one.

So why should I uncote?

I'm going to assume that this is rhetorical, since I never thought that you should un-vote.

I agree with what you say about Madonna, but I felt really similarly about her in our last game, and she turned out to be town.

Which game was it?

[TheDudeAbides]

@ac:
The rule about posting after death refers to posting after being flipped, rather than after being hammered.

That's what I would have assumed, but this wording

If the mod hasn't posted the endgame scene, you may not post again, even after a hammer in LYLO.

Made me assume otherwise.

Wait, okay, this clicked.
UNVOTE:

I don't understand why you unvoted here.

TDA's obsession with meta continues. I don't like this; while meta can be useful, it basically turns into WIFOM if the person is aware of their own meta.

Where have I tried to use meta to get a read on someone in this game?
What are you referring to here?

357 worst claim I've ever seen, obviously fake.

Why do you think that it's a lie?

listen if anyones gonna antagonizehim into hiding behind them its gonna be me

I think that would be a great choice for Garmr.

[TheDudeAbides]

why would a townie ever make a gambit like that?

Why do you think that it's a gambit?


I'd vote for Kuribo over TSO without any hesitation.

really? replace? just because you got in an argument with someone? come on, stay in this game. try to get him lynched if you want.

What is your read on TSO?

I don't think that EXAKT scum-slipped. Also the way EXAKT is scum hunting feels very townish.

post 534 and on by T S O look less town than earlier; his thoughts on kuribo are a complete and blatant misrep of what's going on. it seems like he's trying to take advantage of kuribo's personality to push a mislynch of a strong player.

I don't think that this is the case at all. Can you explain?

My displeasure at 436 is from him not unvoting his RVS vote 400 posts after the fact.

What's your read on Silverspawn?

[TheDudeAbides]

Vince, what did you like this?

meta reads are bad and boring and detract from, you know, actually playing mafia. silverspawn, who do you think is scum? preferably, base your reads on things they've said in the thread rather than anything meta.

look, obviously you seem to think meta reads are silly and a distraction and don't actually qualify as real reads. That's cool, you can think that. But I happen to think pretty much the opposite, although less extreme. General tells are weak and not worth much, because different people play so differently. What is towny for someone can be a huge scumtell for someone else, and vice versa.

I kind of feel like silverspawn is just talking about stuff that he probably thinks as either alignment - I use meta, I don't like alts, soft-claims are stupid.
The only think there that seems specific to this game is his read on Serra, which he should probably be more detailed about.

This is true, but I don't have any strong reads atm. I really don't. Do you want me to fabricate reads in order to appear more towny? That would be lying. I'd prefer not to. You have very long days, I'll get more comfortable the more context I have for different players. Right now, if I had to assign scum % to every player in this game, it would all be between 20 and 30%.

Now about what's actually happening, do you guys think Garmr is the kind of player who makes all of this up as scum? He could have faked the self-hammer, and then faked his rage and fullclaim. How likely this is does of course depend on his meta, so whoever has played with him before should state his opinion.

The hider thing is silly. Look, some PR's are better targets for scum than VT's because they have dangerous powers, and some are worse targets because they are harder to kill. You say you softclaimed as hider to cause scum to shoot you so that they waste their NK. Okay, that's cool. Of course it doesn't guarantee to accomplish anything, and whether or not scum actually does shoot you just comes down to WIFOM, but I'm fine with using it as a strategy.

However, complaining about the fact that we picked up on your softclaim is just plain stupid. Of course we're gonna do that, we don't know that you're a hider. And it doesn't actually change anything, it's still WIFOM from scum's perspective. If you really wanted to do this strategy, you should have anticipated this reaction from us and react in a way that isn't full claiming. Then, in day 2, you should have come clean. On the other hand, if you're scum who planed all of it, then your actions make sense.

I'm not sure how sincere the rage is, I don't really get what in this game could have him get this upset, but again, I don't know him, people who do need to decide this.

[TheDudeAbides]

I would have a hard time not lynching from this list today.
gera
silver
acfan
Viscera

I'll work out my favorite soon.

[TheDudeAbides]

Serra, I don't see the similarities in her game here with that one. In this game, I see a lot of pro-town sounding talk, and I don't think that appears so much in her other game. For example:

@Everyone: I am in favor of pushing one of these wagons forward to L-1 and then beyond as needed. However, people are going to need to commit to one or the other by voting, and back up that vote with why you are agreeing to that wagon. I know clues are sparse and tells are not the most solid, but a history will help us better read each other and find scum.

I am also okay with proceeding through suspects in a thorough manner, taking them up to L-1, and after stating hammer intent, hammering as deemed fit. If you are not okay with pushing wagons and making lynches (of any sort) viable, then okay, whatever floats your scummy boat.

I do not know what your methodology is, vincero, but mine is about bringing things to a head and getting results sooner, so we can move on as needed. I feel that voting on the two biggest wagons of the day will help us see if people agree with anything brought up as scumtells, or if they are willing to agree to a lynch despite their own misgivings. I also said I would like to see people not only voting for their own scumreads, but arguing people to join their wagon, as if you think you have found scum, you do want follow through, I would think.

Hi, all. I hope all those horrible rage posts decrease from here on out, and while I am sure some information lies within all that dreck, a lot of it is WIFOM, whiny bad play, and even a flip would not help much extract and separate the real and unreal from that mess. For those of you who flipped out: I wish you were dead, so I need not bother with you and your spoiled ISO. All of you get a scumlean/read for it, so thanks a lot if you are town because you helped muddy the waters, and no one should be able to claim they must be town due to caring so much they rage posted.

Did I miss things in that game?

[TheDudeAbides]

TS

Why "slight scum"?

[TheDudeAbides]

TDA, don't you think that her "pro-town talk" is all empty rhetoric with no action?

To some extent.

TS

Why "slight scum"?

Because his posts seem to be short and don't leave much impact. Blending in is generally a slight scum tell.

I don't see how you can conclude that he's intentionally blending in.

I'm not sure what you want me to explain here. T S O's interpretations of kuribo's actions were just bullshit, plain and simple.

That plain and simple part.

kuribo's ragequit speaks for itself.

1st, maybe, but that tells me nothing about your thoughts.
2nd, why do you believe it and that it's not a gambit?

This is pretty interesting. In the first post, Vincero is showing us his elaborate thought process behind unvoting, why it's better for the town, etc, but then directly contradicts it by revoting Garmr.

Garmr's point on Viscera was excellent, you've seen it and conclude,

Vincero is null leaning town for me. I liked his catchup post, and most of his posts after that seem genuine to me, except for his vote on Reinoe. That vote was for something pretty early game and seems weird and off to me.

Your defense of him makes no sense.

If Vinny flips scum, lynch Aero.

Why is ACfan scummy to you?

I'll talk about him later.

[TheDudeAbides]

Vote: Vincero

[TheDudeAbides]

I think Reinoe's attack on Serra is coming from town.

[TheDudeAbides]

acfan is off the list because he's dropped a town-tell that I don't want to get into unless I really have to.
Gera is better, but his TSO case is lame, I mean, in context it's not too hard to see what TSO's thinking.

[TheDudeAbides]

That was an invitation for you to tell me about your thoughts.

[TheDudeAbides]

This is a prod dodge.

[TheDudeAbides]

Excuse me? When precisely did I say that garmr isn't scum? Oh right, nowhere. Garmr, reinoe, TSO, possibly TDA scumteam if there's 4.

Do you have anything to say other than scum is trying to lynch me?

[TheDudeAbides]

Actually "if there's four" is a decent town-tell from Vincero.

Unvote

[TheDudeAbides]

Garmr might actually need to die today versus tomorrow if he thinks he can play around about who he is targeting

Scum.

@Garmr: you are alive because you claimed, and the cost of that is being able to follow up and prove it by a) dying with your target or b) being lynched tomorrow. I am not even sure if that is up for discussion; you have to be cleared somehow, and you dead would be the lovely way to do that.

Not trying to read Garmr, just justifying his lynch D2.

[TheDudeAbides]

Wanna vote silver with me instead?

let me finish reading.

[TheDudeAbides]

The hint at the town tell though is pretty meh thing to do. Post your convictions or not at all

Do you want to lynch him today?

[TheDudeAbides]

Vote: Madonna

[TheDudeAbides]

Unvote.

I just took another look at the game that Serra linked and it's making me doubt myself.

[TheDudeAbides]

I am very comfortable with reinoe as town right now. again, i don't care about meta reads, but reinoe is coming from far too earnest a place to be scum, imo. he also isn't resorting to meta reads, which is a major point for him, as far as i'm concerned. reinoe, who are your biggest scumreads right now, and why?

I just noticed this post. We've got "reinoe is coming from far too earnest a place to be scum" followed by "he also isn't resorting to meta reads, which is a major point for him," which tell us that reinoe is scum hunting, but then we've got "reinoe, who are your biggest scumreads right now, and why" which makes no sense in context.

[TheDudeAbides]

This post makes me think that EXAKT Science could be town

geriantm, i hope your posting starts working soon, because I'm curious who your top three scum are.

as of right now, i think that garmr and serra are both scum. their interactions haven't felt totally honest, and they're protecting each other while still bussing lightly. not only that, but the tone of the banter they're having feels very off. even failing that, garmr would be a very good lynch for today. not only would it be a very good lynch to get information, but this game has been toxic and he hasn't been helping even slightly. during his meltdown, he said this:

Also if your wondering why my rage looks faked it's because if I didn't manage it that way I would get banned for good. If I was allowed to say what I was thinking I would make kuribo look like a kitten. Because at the moment I want to cut some of you so badly you bleed to death summon the devil bring you back to life then tie your intestines up and hang you from it so you choke to death then use your blood as lubricant for me and my gf.

That's the least insultive way I can think of to say how I feel.

like, fuck you dude. you say that you play mafia for fun, huh? is this your idea of fucking fun? if this was earnest, get fucking help.
the thing is, i don't think it's earnest. i think it's a smokescreen. this sort of shitty meltdown would be awful play coming from a townie, as i'm sure we'd all agree. however, as a scum move, i see a real motivation for it. it poisons the discourse and contributes to an overwhelming atmosphere of hostility that is not conducive to effective scumhunting. that's something that could motivate scum to cause sucha mess. what supposedly triggered the meltdown? that he was being blocked from scumhunting when he was refusing to acknowledge that there are different varieties of scumhunting, something he has no problem calling me out for:

Exact science that's the problem you have and it's a obvious flaw with your scum hunting. You assume everyone has your exact standard of what town should do. Everyone is different and depending on there circumstances and whats happening and how much they care about it the way they will play is different. So people aren't always go to play to what you consider optimal mafia all the time I'm just a casual player that looks for fun I don't think my town play through 100% I just go with it what i feel at the time. Also I'm not lying about my hider claim.

I believe my life is worth sorting out tso and I'm quite happy to make him dead and direct the scum kill off of my town reads if he is town.

okay, so how about we lynch you today, and then use that information to sort out who scum is? if you're a mislynch, worst case scenario we lose a townie who has been playing like shit and creating a really gross atmosphere. that would still give us usable information. however, i'm confident that we'll get a scum flip if we kill you, which is obviously even better.