Mini 1632 - Zar's Holiday Bash - Mardi Gras Showdown - Over!

[Madonna]

Yessss, the party has started.

VOTE: T S O

Kicking RVS up a notch by helping start a wagon; you are welcome.

geraintm, please vote.

[Madonna]

TheDudeAbides, if not wrong, where is your vote to back that up?

VOTE: TheDudeAbides

[Madonna]

Actually, I should read votecounts instead of not seeing a vote with your comment, and assuming you were inciting without follow up.

UNVOTE:

[Madonna]

VOTE: geraintm

Dislike his specification of random (37).

[Madonna]

Posting to say I have read, but nothing is striking me too much. The Garmr thing and the vincero thing ping, but about as strongly as my geraintm thing, so I am parked here.

[Madonna]

@vincero, 81: Examples, please.

@Everyone: I am in favor of pushing one of these wagons forward to L-1 and then beyond as needed. However, people are going to need to commit to one or the other by voting, and back up that vote with why you are agreeing to that wagon. I know clues are sparse and tells are not the most solid, but a history will help us better read each other and find scum.

I would like to see more people weigh in on geraintm and silverspawn, and if there is no support for them, I want a stronger case for someone else.

[Madonna]

Sorry, I have my own vote for geraintm; I do not need to vote elsewhere, but when I get a better case, that will change.

[Madonna]

@vincero, 99: No, I literally said what was quoted. However, I

am

okay with mislynches, because mislynches happen. I am also okay with proceeding through suspects in a thorough manner, taking them up to L-1, and after stating hammer intent, hammering as deemed fit. If you are not okay with pushing wagons and making lynches (of any sort) viable, then okay, whatever floats your scummy boat.

I do not know what your methodology is, vincero, but mine is about bringing things to a head and getting results sooner, so we can move on as needed. I feel that voting on the two biggest wagons of the day will help us see if people agree with anything brought up as scumtells, or if they are willing to agree to a lynch despite their own misgivings. I also said I would like to see people not only voting for their own scumreads, but arguing people to join their wagon, as if you think you have found scum, you do want follow through, I would think.

Battery dying; I got to find a charger because I want to respond to your 97, vincero.

[Madonna]

Fret not; I got a vote or two.

My house-guest is sleeping on my charger; a long answer will have to wait.

@97: vincero, I think you need to not just read a post, but ensure you are comprehending it. TDA's town statements means he is agreeing with something a person has said, agreeing with a mindset, a line of question, their actions, or whatever. By declaring people are town or scum, TDA is letting us know where he stands on people, and that can be good, since the less he hides and the more he shares, the more material with which town has to work. After that, it is a player's judgment call whether to use that to trust/distrust him. To cry wolf and say his declarations have no explanation behind it is to miss the context, and context is very important.

[Madonna]

Boop. Reading. So many pages.

[Madonna]

@kuribo, 139: Hahaha, no. I only hope to encourage everyone to individually think and come to their own conclusions, and if I disagree, to make them see reason or the rope.

Reading through has pretty much only left impressions like kuribo has a lot of star power (probably with good reason), TDA and Aero took beatings, Garmr seem opportunistic/subscribable to policy lynches which have no bearing on this game, and we still have lurkers, one of which seems to be me. Despite the kuriboxTDA face-off, I am leery of the TDA wagon because of vincero, the Garmr voters are probably legit, and the silverspawn wagon is composed of people who still have a lot to prove. I will look at ISOs tomorrow, as it is a day off.

[Madonna]

Howl, I was started ISOing people and already finished you up; keep quiet and do not make me revise my work. ;|

TSO posts read better than Howl posts. I feel his vote was a response to my suggestion which could be seen as an attempt to boil Day 1 to a binary choice (and early at that), so no nakedness there from this viewpoint. It can be argued When I read TSO's posts, along with fluff, his comments on non-fluff things seem apt or insightful, and I dig him. My only big question for him thus far is 117 (as in, okay, I see a case, but how does it apply here) because I bothered to read his Csaero(sp?) case, which was impressive, but got a townie flipped.

From what I have ISOed thus far, I am cool with TSO and TDA. reinoe is a null for now, debating how I feel about his meta arguments. geraintm and silverspawn seem more bad players than scummy, but bad is still bad. Aeronaut, Garmr, and myself are on geraintm and silverspawn for initial things, but either we are going to commit to bad base arguments or hunt for better tells than "defensive". Howl was going to be penned down for lurker, but that has picked up, and vincero has also a poor showing thus far along with lurking, and that is where I am.

Getting to kuribo, BP, and serrapaladin later.

[Madonna]

SPECIAL HOLIDAY BREAK FROM THE CAROLING MOD

Town or scumbag, town or scumbag
Welcome Christmas, Christmas day!
Town or scumbag, town or scumbag
Welcome Christmas, Christmas day
Welcome, welcome Scum or Townie
Welcome, welcome Scum or Townie
Christmas day may be a blast
So long as you have votes to cast
Town or scumbag, town or scumbag
Welcome Christmas near the lynch
Town or scumbag, town or scumbag
Welcome all before their flip.

SEASON'S GREETINGS PARTY GUESTS!

@Mod and players: Merry Holiday Bash!

[Madonna]

Well, previous to the Garmr focus and subsequent meltdown, I was thinking vincero needed more attention, that silverspawn and geraintm seemed like easy (and thus not good) lynches, and that scum could sort out Garmr.

Not seeing the TSO scum thing.

VOTE: vincero

I think the length of time for you to follow through with your TDA gripe (initially mentioned in 36 and then finally voted for in 98), you spent the posts between those whining about TDA's declarations instead of actually challenging them, you went on to misrep me (99), then shaded silverspawn for additional points (101), and finally bleated the obvious that lurker Howl is lurker (that is not news and nor has that really changed). My own participation is scarce so coming from me this is not the greatest, but vincero was active earlier and has since been under the radar. While life provides a variety of reasons for that, I think the timing is so handy to coincide with Garmr getting all the love and attention.

[Madonna]

/necessary holiday prod dodge

Garmr (2): T S O, EXAKT Science

Is this how we deal with role claims? What can be accomplished with derailing a potential investigation that cannot be dealt with tomorrow? Amend please, and I will do the same with my activity as soon as possible.

[Madonna]

Hi, all. I hope all those horrible rage posts decrease from here on out, and while I am sure some information lies within all that dreck, a lot of it is WIFOM, whiny bad play, and even a flip would not help much extract and separate the real and unreal from that mess. For those of you who flipped out: I wish you were dead, so I need not bother with you and your spoiled ISO. All of you get a scumlean/read for it, so thanks a lot if you are town because you helped muddy the waters, and no one should be able to claim they must be town due to caring so much they rage posted.

The early claims were bad too, which are both Garmr and kuribo if memory serves. However, that is bad, not scum, as I believe the context of kuribo being a rager wanting to throw down works, and even if I disagree with Garmr's context, he can still perhaps provide some information for Day 2.

So, page 27. Have we put

anyone

to L-1 yet? The last vote count at 513 suggests otherwise, and we should amend that.

I know I see a Garmr vote today as a waste. I would say TSO is a waste too since that is who Garmr wants to investigate, but here is a crazy idea to all of his nay-sayers: if we distrust him, why not all lay in and give him a target? While it is still up in the air whether Garmr accepts this, the idea is that his ability can be spent in a town-approved manner, instead of him setting up who he targets and possibly how he explains himself the following Day. That is an idea I will put out there, but I am personally fine with his own (probably screwed) investigation. But anyways, I am still not up for a Garmr or TSO lynch, and despite kuribo's harsh words and early claim, I like the scumhunting I saw, so that is a no from me too.

[Madonna]

EBWOP: Anyone who cares about your dumb claim (id est me) has taken it into consideration already, so post about something other than your claim, Garmr.

[Madonna]

Punk prod dodge.

[Madonna]

Willing to lynch {vincero, Madonna} happily today.

Day 1, Votecount 10

Garmr (2):

EXAKT Science, vincero
[..]

vincero (2):

Madonna, Garmr

So you are thinking scum can either be me or vincero, for whom I have been voting for quite some time? Alright, but you should follow that up by jumping on my wagon for vincero or just me, because saying you are for vincero or Madonna and still voting elleheathen is something.

[Madonna]

Garmr might actually need to die today versus tomorrow if he thinks he can play around about who he is targeting and whether or not he is going to use his ability. serra has the right of it, and I think reinoe did too, but there was a issue of understanding the phrasing.

@Garmr:

you are alive because you claimed, and the cost of that is being able to follow up and prove it by a) dying with your target or b) being lynched tomorrow. I am not even sure if that is up for discussion; you have to be cleared somehow, and you dead would be the lovely way to do that. You will either: a) find us scum by hiding, b) clear a townie by hiding, or c) die for fakeclaiming. You can personally know a or b will happen, but look at this from someone else's perspective and realize what we need to do. So, what does all this bullshit mean? It means you better find scum tonight, because scum will probably kill who you confirm town, you are dead to us from a lynch tomorrow because WIFOM, and I do not play WIFOM situations, I just resolve them.

[Madonna]

I am going to lazily (oh, I said it) scroll through the last few pages and take umbrage with a few issues.

@Aeronaut, 792:

No one is going to see that crap in a quote wall. You guys need to learn how to communicate better online; take a Twitter class or something.

Looking at your ISO, I find your questions and answer: ask real questions. Clearly I have voted, clearly I have stated player suspicions, and clearly I have stated who I am not in favor of lynching. If reasons are unclear to you after you have read my ISO (I have, what, twentyish posts, so it is easy), then you then may ask actual questions with that hit upon particulars, instead of general incitement questions.

In your 707, after your blase questions, you also bother to quote Garmr quoting TSO about townreading me, but there is no follow-up. Did you want to clarify why that was in there; your wall was quite large, and if you missed making one point, would you like the chance to bring it up now? Perhaps Garmr's idea that I wanted to monopolize his power was something you felt was a scumread, but I address the importance that he not screw around with town in 833 and in 675 despite my "monopol[y]" suggestion, said Garmr's target is his own should he feel otherwise.

~

@vincero, 776 & 785:

According to the latest votecount (831), TSO and TDA are both voting for two separate people, both of whom are not Garmr's vote.

Four scummates? There is no evidence to suggest such a high number, and I feel this is unreasonable. If town, you need to probably not take things personally to the extent that you are going to call out a scumteam (and definitely not that large), but I do suggest seeing a vote on a townie as a slight. If scum, with that many people fingered as scum, it might not be unreasonable to think vincero was trying to hide a scummate, should he himself flip.

[Madonna]

@reinoe, 896:

Summary/read/snark of serrapaladin. Reread the thread, focusing on the game happening around serra.

Page five and finally decides to replace in and says what in 118?! Scum.

129 is a fluff post in response to kuribo's entrance. Worthless content. Scum.

Comes back in 235 to let everyone down with unexplained town (TDA, reinoe, Aeronaut) and scum (TSO, geraintm, vincero) reads. Idkmybff's silverspawn. Scum.

Ugh, why is serrapaladin making me read in 271? SCUMMMM. Why is he linking to posts when he calls stuff interesting/boring/stupid? Could he be more specific why things are stupid/interesting/boring (this is a somewhat a legitimate gripe, but everyone should do their own work and reads)? It is like he is asking me to read where he finds tells so his reads can be challenged if needed. SCUM.

275-279: Simple exchange with Garmr, and the latter blows up for...some reason? serrapaladin looks super scum in comparison.

282 & 283: Explains geraintm's RVS, defends TDA's potential upsetting Garmr...? Tried to dissuade kuribo for pressing a fuller Garmr claim. Scum!

reinoe hops in here (284) to object to serra's 271. Going through his gripes in order: garbage, null, "interesting stuff" is stuff not subjectively arguing exactly where RVS ends and picking on geraintm's now obvious RVS (actually, I never bothered to look and I so get it now, so thanks), your interest in silver's meta pinged because you specifically asked for it, TDA said a lot of things but the thrust of it was his picking up on Garmr and voting Garmr, rolefishing & different strokes for different people, you both have fair points, fuck people on all fronts in regards to meta, I agree the outright dismissal here is bad, and again fuck meta. Not all your concerns are concerns in my mind, reinoe, but you are not taking crazy pills to want answers for some things. Anyways: scum!

287-289: kuribo clarifies exactly why he wants a harder claim verus a soft one, and it is justifiable, so serra's objection/suspicion(?) is crap. I agree with ragebo. SCUM.

297 & 298: Again, points in order: fluff, fluff, legit, debatable, I nailed this, point clarified to what I suspected, fair point made, ugh ugh ugh meta blah blah, okay response but could actually bother to be more specific and critical, something something about presenting meta differently is bad (seriously, people getting so married to meta), again meta crap, kuribo wins so no misreps please, all the geraintm stuff is WIFOM at this point. Scuuuuuum.

TDA starts weighing in on serra's posts, but I am skipping it (299). Someone is scum.

Page 13 is a lot of arguments about meta and worthless junk. Seriously, read this game and get your impressions and gut feelings from this game, not three, five, twenty games back. Skipped. Psst, scum.

TDA's 348 is a bad serra case. Silver's newness to MS might be the issue here as there is different meta (I guess), defense of geraintm is legit because the attacks on him were originally about his delayed RVS which was explained, and apparently townreading kuribo is bad. Scummy scum.

Only page 15? I am so sorry I decided to do this. So scum, so hard.

362: meta stuff snore, I sort of called it, good question, null, town. I mean scum.

378: Fair point, we should have hammered and saved ourselves a lotttt of grief. Scum.

388: I do not even know where serra was voting, but if he unvoted Garmr right there, I am screaming in sadness and missed opportunity. It was a good idea at the time. I just checked; he did. Aaaugh, scummmmmmm.

Skipping down to 414. serra votes reinoe, but I have not exactly been noticing things not labeled serra. I missed something scummy?

Subsequent post fingers silver and EXAKT (agreed on the latter), but no vote. Ehhhhh. Scum.

Subsequent response is lacking. Ehhhhh. Scum.

(EXAKT FoS's back, kind of like how he voted TSO after TSO called him out on his initial vote. Ping. Scum.)

reinoe's 424: Make out already you frenemies, not conclusive, serra should have brought quotes but you should read, meta trouble, null, empty issue then, null, agreed, no clue as to the issue here anymore, meta misrepping woes of some sort, and meta bullshit. Scum.

reinoe's 426: I think this is more an anthill made into a mole...hill? Like, not a real issue. Silverspawn was giving out newb/poor player vibes, so serra called it as such. Your looking into it, reinoe, could have been to find an issue and do the molehill thing. Scum.

Man, EXAKT, never change (428). Scum.

432: Frustration, but not genuine plea. Null. Should have done something to get modkilled if he really wanted to die. Scum.

449: Engages ac1983fan. Makes a good point about Garmr's lynch. Calls 354 crap, which it is. ac1983fan's responses (453) are weak. Scum.

460 & 461: Reading some people is hard. /shrug Sigh. Scum.

468 & 469: Likes vincero at this point, willing to let Garmr live until tomorrow, nothing terribly interesting or telling here. Scum.

Why am I only on page 20?! /sobsobsob

475: Me likes. Does share somewhat and also encourages others to draw their own conclusions versus force-feeding them answers. It would be town if he were not scum.

478: WIFOM at this point. townreinoe and scumreinoe could do a lot of stuff, and agreed, there is always something else to focus on instead of tunneling. Scumminess.

499: Aeronaut shares a thoroughly shoddy case on serra. Initial reasoning sucks and supporting quotes are bad. TSO and Garmr would die in a night kill if they are both town, getting rid of them, and Plan B reinoe would be the lynch today because Night 1 will hopefully sort out TSO and Garmr. Scum plan for a scum lord.

...516: Oh, explanation. Still scum.

Anyways, at the top of page 21 and I am taking a break because the initial grievance about serrapaladin has been looked at, and though there must be more to look at, this whole damn thing looks too long. Enjoy a wall of no-one-is-going-to-read-that.

My takeaway is that serra looks pretty good as town. A lot of crap has been brought to his door and plenty of it has been seen to and dealt with. I am not coming from the same perspective, reinoe, and maybe part of that is my unwillingness to play the meta game. I do not try to bring past games into a current one, and nor do I look at one game I played with another person and try to apply it here. I might get a general feeling of a player and use that as a starting point for further, ahem, feels, but I feel that is the extent of my meta application. My impression of the serra x reinoe debate is one of semantics and over-use of meta to the point of death tunneling.

[Madonna]

Burp.

@reinoe, 896:

Incoming.

The rest of 21 is worth skipping, no real serra content there.

Twenty-two has this gem (536): kuribo was townreading serra for a magical hidden tell that TSO cannot divine and kuribo is not willing to share. I missed this tell too, but seeing as I am also unmagically reading serra, I am not bothered.

573: EXAKT argues for scumGarmr and scumserra. How does one bus lightly versus regular bussing? Says banter is off, but that is subjective. Proceeds to case Garmr with a weak case that is mostly just a mindless press for a lynch, under the premise of using the lynch as information tomorrow versus, say, what we might get off Garmr tonight. No serra case?

Distraction: EXAKT and Garmr really do go at it for pages, and I could have made one post all the way to page 37 if they kept wasting pages being uncivil.

Eventually, 640-642 come around, and serra believes he caught EXAKT in a slip. Undecided on it myself, and not sold on the idea.

650: reinoe, serra's ISO is good. He is voting, he is arguing against lynches he does not want, and has not been bad about confronting other players.

653: EXAKT has apologized for rageposting, does not vote Garmr despite taking the time to case Garmr, and goes after serra instead because serra's interactions with Garmr feels phony. I find this weak and bad and sad.

reinoe's 654: This may be a fair point, no clue. Again, meta can go bite me, and damn you all (gently) who use it.

serra's : Calls reinoe a moron for still pushing the geraintm case (I will agree it seems a poor case). More meta nonsense to help fill your meta bellies, blah blah blah.

Right, page 29. FML.

reinoe's 705: Doing, did, pretty sure your case on him is a bad tunnel with a tinge of personal offense to being FoSed.

708 is serra. Denies reinoe, his vincero read is more town, and he is arguing for my nullread (I guess) to Aero instead of scum.

serra's 712 includes a read spectrum, which is good to get measure of where he stands on people, and take this all as a reasonable post. I see nothing screaming scum yet, reinoe.

Hey, reinoe's 718! I knew I would get to something, someday. I see a lot of the grief here is a lack of reading the game as it progresses as the context around serrapaladin's posts here. I feel I was able to extract a lot of the positions serra takes on people based on his posts, because if he says something short and sweet, he links the post in question, and I can read and make my own thoughts. You obviously feel otherwise, and your rejection to serra's posts seems like something you have already decided, and you are looking for/making up the scumslant. The case here goes down several posts, to 722, and that is impressive and dedicated. I definitely still disagree, but I do appreciate following your case and process. There is at least one time in my wall where I am agreeing that serrapaladin is being evasive or not clear enough, so I do not think you are jumping at solely shadows, but part of your case seems to be meta, and I am frankly no good in that arena.

727 by serra sucks. When another player goes ahead and actually lays out their whole case against you, maybe you should respond, especially if there are questions in there just for you?

Thanks, silverspawn, for blanket-sheeping reinoe (731, instead of presenting your own decent case or pointing out where you agree (and disagree, but whatever, small things, right).

734, challenged, 735, denied.

31, hello, elleheathen.

Some bickering between serrapaladin and silverspawn on 32. Reposting of content from two lines above.

Same page, serra asks why elle disbelieves Garmr's claim, and strongly rejects Garmr's musings of messing with scum (hint: no fucking around please, Garmr).

Page 33, reinoe and serra misunderstand each other. They probably do not figure this out.

Garmr tells us he totally was not going to fuck around, so cool your jets, serra, if you can hear over reinoe.

34 starts of laughably, and silverspawn does a good job of being scummy, as called out by TSO. Page ends with serrapaladin voting silverspawn and calling vincero probtown, maybe right.

serrapaladin and Garmr make out hotly on 35. Kidding, they hate each other's guts (or do they, duh duh duhhhh). Oh no, Garmr votes serra! And they both keep it toxic like Britney Spears. It carries on until the last post, where Garmr goes back to voting vincero.

36 has nothing but reinoe requests for serrapaladin defenses. Sorry that no one decided your serra arguments were worth a look until now.

37 is thin on serrapaladin content. He made a call for a silverspawn wagon?

By 38, elleheathen and ac1983fan have answered the call and voted silverspawn. And there.

~

Right, a look at serrapaladin and reinoe's argument for him. Done. Same thoughts as the end of my last one, pretty much. That serrapaladin refuses to get into a quote war with you, reinoe, is both a good and bad thing. Addressing issues is important, but letting that get in the way of other avenues is also bad. Neither of you have entirely dedicated your posts to tunneling the other, although you two are big foci for the other.

[Madonna]

I get the shift on vincero reads, but I also hate jumping ships and taking my vote elsewhere.

I do not want to build cases right now, but I am scumleaning on some folks.

• silverspawn - my read has definitely changed to more scummy than poor.
  
• TSO - is more of a nullread than town now, after my more thorough read-through.
  
• Iknal's slot seemed scummed the hell up with EXAKT's play, though he did fight with possible scum Garmr.
  
• Aeronaut has definitely rubbed me wrong both the first time and my second time through.

Before being more definitive than that, I will of course ISO them and read through the game to get a feel of its flow when they posted.

Still not willing to lynch Garmr, despite the fact he really has been, um, unsociable with a few players and I have found his play very questionable. He still has a use, town, and do not squander it now.

[Madonna]

@Garmr, 929:

I have, like, twenty-six posts, and I think I have been very clear in that number of posts. Please ISO that shit and do not spew stupid when it comes to my feelings on you. I have no idea what you are, but I am not keen on lynching you today, even if you play scummy with emotional outbursts and undermine your own claim. You claim to have an investigative role, and the Night is for investigating that, so you can live until tomorrow.

Your opinions on vincero make me sad because I can agree with them, and you are so beyond my ability to trust.

Iknals would not get cleared by your flip; that makes no sense. Might the fight with you be a tell at a later date is my idle wonder (and needs no answer nor can be answered yet).

I will be impressed and staggered should a scenario play out where I do not find your lynch acceptable tomorrow. Please note that while I find your lynch, should you live, essential, discussion of the Night's events are also important and I am not indicating a need to murder you immediately.

[Madonna]

Small thoughts before weekend gaming.

There is a chance Garmr dies tonight by finding scum, and that is why it is worth keeping him until tomorrow.

666 is questionable; a Mafia Jailkeeper could exist, so the idea is not entirely solid despite sounding meritorious.

[Madonna]

VOTE: Garmr

I did not like silverspawn (now droog, hi), and we can sort him and Garmr out in one go this way.

[Madonna]

@Iknal, 1054:
1) All night to read the thread and no opinion on the whole hiding charade, Iknal?
2) It saddens me that if you have read the thread, decided that Garmr's ISO was one of the last ones to which you would get.

[Madonna]

@Iknal, 1054: Despite any second thoughts (928) on my vincero vote, I did follow through with it, and that I did indeed a) have second thoughts and b) actually weighed in on other people's views as well. That I noted my misgivings while keeping my vote where it was, instead of shifting it, does not show that I did anything for a town read, much like how people are hopping onto elleheathen. That you hop on me for the opposite is absurd; either one or the other is indicative of scumminess, not both.

I did vote vincero all day, and yes, I did little to push the wagon. Strangely (sarcasm here), I did not need to push a case to get others to come around to my point of view, as if vincero was indeed playing badly and needed examination. Vincero gained votes because of his play, not because my vote is a magnet. If I asked for cases, it was because I felt my vote placement was sound and would need another point of view to consider changing. Nevermind that I looked at and responded to the cases of others (if you read my ISO, you read my reinoe walls), and gave my opinion.

Your argument is bad, Iknal; it is without meat. Your vote is bad; please amend it.

[Madonna]

Posting to say I have read.

[Madonna]

@Garmr, 1082:

Your choice is interesting because no one knew who you were going to target, which we needed to know in case you died. You solidly stuck with your TSO crumb for a long while (113), drop the pretense of hiding behind TSO in 649, then your hide target becomes anyone you scum/nullread come 655, that shifts to silverspawn (667), but you try to bargain with reinoe so you hide behind serrapaladin (724), failing that you would target vincero (726), BUT ALL OF THAT MAY HAVE BEEN A BLUFF (797), except it was not since you put it in front of us like wine lol.

Garmr

, I want to say your whole scumhunt shtick is amazingly bad. For six-hundred plus posts, you were either threatening to hide behind TSO or voting to lynch him, hard, and in 649, you suddenly do the best thing. Your read of TSO jumps from "definite scum and we are finding out by lynch or hide," to "total townie, so town that I will not vote for him or target him at night". Like, what the hell. For the rest of the day, it is all about anybody else, but epecially vincero and silverspawn, serrapaladin blowup aside, and come today, not even a TSO thought in your mind as you vote for elleheathen. To me, it looks like you are taking whichever scumspects look like easy pickings, since apparently elleheathen is taking heat for calling vincero town (a nulltell to me), and vincero and silverspawn were pretty easy targets as we neared deadline.

I wish you felt consistent, and I feel your reads yesterday were very all over the place.

@Everyone:

We need to lynch Garmr, and doing it today is the best time. His claim still requires verifying, he failed to achieve a town goal last night, his target was not even clear if he even achieved that goal, and I cannot see why discussing his lynch is not more topical today. Whether or not we go through two towns today and tonight, I do not want to see Garmr make it to LYLO with a huge, questionable cloud over his head because he put so much WIFOM yesterday.

Garmr might flip scum, which is good.

Garmr might flip town, which is bad, but not

so

bad. Simply put, putting him down now saves us the drama of sorting him out later, and also clears another townie (with their death), but definitely narrows down our suspects.

To not lynch him now on grounds of practical sense and his scumplay that was yesterday, means that when we do lynch him, we have too much to investigate. If he flips scum, we have to look at droog, should droog not be dead. If he flips town with droog alive, we lose two town later in the game, when numbers are critical. A dead town droog, mind you, is of no use in clearing Garmr, but a dead Garmr does help clear droog, whether or not droog makes it to the morning after.

UNVOTE:

I am unvoting for now, but know that my vote is still for Garmr. I will not hammer without warning, and I will state intent when the time comes, but I also fully intend to take advantage of the day to talk and discuss; we need not rush it.

[Madonna]

@Iknal, 1083:

- Call it what you want, but its aftermath has negatively affected the town.

- How do you feel about Garmr's stated use of his power; was his target clear, was his choice good?

- When is it an appropriate time to address Garmr and his scummy play if not now?

- My walls (you know, the ones for reinoe) were for reinoe. It was not for the town unless they wanted to weigh in on the case too (you know, the one reinoe repeatedly asked us about). Its purpose was clear.

- While "Two people can be scum for entirely different reasons, they're not exclusive." can be true, I question the validity of your initial read. At which branch of possibilities does my vote and opinion of it

not

become scumtells for you? (Warning, rhetorical questions ahead) Would it be had I silently kept my vote on vincero? Would it be had I more publicly crowed about the lynch before he flipped? Would it be that I unvoted vincero before he got lynched? Would it be if vincero flipped scum and I had expressed doubts? Essentially, I am saying there is no pleasing you, you would have come to a scumread due to some bias (scum or not). My failure, if you were to actually point it out instead of this weak argument, was not taking the time or care to jump off the wagon I initially started while building a stronger (but how stronger) case on another player. Unfortunately, my options were to jump on silverspawn/droog wagon (which frankly was equally as valid, so why leave the first), or try to push a new wagon near the end of deadline.

[Madonna]

@droog, 1098 :

Maybe! Emphasis on "if gamr is scum"!

Not addressing Iknal's post yet because I am lazy, but responding to droog is short work.

[Madonna]

@Iknal, 1097:

Your paragraph is a mess and addressing particular issues in your posts is hard to do clearly; please fix in future posts. I am actually going to need to post quotes to be clear, and we are back to seeing walls. Ugh, ugh, ugh.

Oooh. Who's the new wagon? Or are they irrelevant now?

Tackling in one go; for someone who ISOed me, you should remember 928, where I posted scumreads and a nullread/scumlean. All could have been possible wagons. Are they irrelevant now if I am pursuing my main issue, something which I pointed out on Day 1 and which I wanted to resolve the coming day? No, but setting aside Garmr and possibly causing wagons other than where I would like would be sidetracking, and I am not for that.

And I think I get where you're coming from with the vince votes. I didn't factor timing into the equation there at all. And hey, I didn't particularly think staying on Vincent was scummy, just the way you went about it was. On saying that, that was the least worrisome part of your case.

Again, if you read it as a scumtell, that is all you and there is not a response you are going to accept which changes that, so I pointed out the futility of debating your hard assertion. Thank you for acknowledging my standpoint was possible before deciding on another explanation.

So far this game you've written walls when they weren't needed, focussed on garmr the entire game and generally discussed things that weren't relevant.

Please quote irrelevant things for clarity. Please tell me which walls were not needed and why.

Yes, sadly Garmr had been a focus of mine, namely to see him not lynched D1 and give him a chance to do something pro-town when he claimed a power role. Ideally, everyone would have agreed Garmr was a backburner item to settle on D2, but I recall a lot of people trying to lynch him instead of tackling other players. While Garmr may have been a large part of my discussion yesterday, I also went and voted another avenue. Again, I did not build a case against vincero, but I felt no need and was vindicated when a majority of players joined; obviously voting vincero had merit.

Yes, his choice was obv. I remember him saying about the time just before I came in I think that he was either going to hide behind vince or silverspawn, whichever didn't get lynched. I also like how you completely ignored the part after he said he might fuck with scum where he discussed the pros and cons and just said, nah the cons outweigh the pros here, hiding behind x.

I disagree with his choice being obvious, which is why I bring it up. Please quote Garmr when he was clear about his choice; I provided quotes in 1095 which showed his waffling after TSO, and thus the doubt surrounding his night target. If you feel that any of those quotes inaccurately portrayed his choice, I would like to know and then take back my assertion.

I ignored nothing; 1095's first paragraph lays out how I followed his public statements regarding who his hide target would be. Again, if I missed something, I am willing to concede to proof or a better interpretation.

Double-checked; I did quote plenty of accurate things, but I know I did not quote his pro/cons post, and further down I did not catch his 819. Garmr does say if vincero got lynched, he would hide behind silverspawn. I am wrong about how clear he was; apologies.

And an appropriate time to address this is when we lynch him at the end of the day, it's not really worth discussing now because all is does is shut down town discussion, yes we have to lynch him, and unless something amazing happens yes it should be today, he forced this by all his soft claiming and shit.

At least on this we agree.

[Madonna]

@Garmr, 1101:

Most of this is fluff, out and out. I feel a lot of it translates into AtE, wherein you proclaim helplessness, you portray your situation as something for which people are settling versus purposefully choosing, and you hypothesize about probable outcomes which anyone with half a brain (at least pretend your fellow players have that much) can conjecture. Your defense to all the flack you are getting is to try to defend your meta, which is bad because then your defense is WIFOM; having us either take things on faith or granting you leeway for scummy play is asking for a lot. That is the issue here: I do not know what your play is like in other games, but your play here has been bad/scummy, and you are getting punished for it.

That last sentence irks me because it has to be in-part true. Logical reasons to clear you aside, you are also being punished for poor play, no matter how good you are on good days. Your Day 1 here was not one of those good days. Garmr, should you legitimately be a 1-shot Hider, you played one outstandingly bad. Your softclaim was too much, your hardclaim came out in the midst of a bad altercation, your flares-up won you no patience with others, and you are trying to defend yourself with self-meta against a mix of emotional frustration and logic. Your current defense, Garmr, is not going to stop any push on you, but I also think any defense would fail, period.

[Madonna]

Sooooo, if we are not lynching Garmr for being a bad player, we are lynching geraintm for being a bad player?

[Madonna]

Look at vincero; we lynched him for mixing "bad" and "scummy". We want to do the same for geraintm and Garmr. We have a toxic town that wants to rip itself apart. Bad play is sometimes just bad play, but here we are with people calling a geraintm quicklynch and a Garmr lynch in the wings. Policy lynches will be the death of us, and we need something better than geraintm refusing to acknowledge he is in the wrong for hammering so soon, but so is the wagon for having played into scum's hands.

pedit: I was typing this up ten minutes earlier and walked away. While I agree that policy lynches are pushed to help prod better townplay, it can be used by scum too to dwindle the town numbers. I want to re-read before I push for anything, PL or otherwise.

[Madonna]

Hi, I am really frustrated with this game; the less I look at this fifty-one page mess, the better.

VOTE: ac1983fan

[Madonna]

Garmr, you can join or you can shut up; if you want to challenge my approach, I will go back to lynching your dumbass for the peace of mind.

[Madonna]

droog, that is fluff.

[Madonna]

I do not understand why my vote is scummy; please clarify.

My vote is coming from a

town

perspective of me not wanting to lynch you, Garmr. I can re-hash everything if you want another wall, but the idea is simple: I have been very committed to seeing you swing, and now I am not pursuing my easy and obvious route, and choosing to naked vote for another person. There is no reason for me to fight the tide, so why am I? If I felt your lynch was worthwhile, what prevents me from considering geraintm's any less worthwhile? So if I did not give a reason for my current vote, it is because I choose not to share one. You need not understand the vote to understand where it is coming from, Garmr.

[Madonna]

@Garmr, 1276: Yeah, again, you are going to have to clarify how my vote or reasoning could be scummy other than saying it could be. Please help.

@ac1983fan, 1279: I am curious too.

[Madonna]

@Garmr, 1282: I have thought about it and can concede my not-voting Garmr or geraintm could be scum-motivated, but the easy solution there, town or scum, would be to return to my reasons and votes (id est, vote Garmr or geraintm). Catch-22.

@ac1983fan, 1275: Hi, I am pointing this FoS of Garmr you do, but vote reinoe while doing it? Contrary.

@ac1983fan, 1283: This makes no sense to me. So scumGarmr caught a tell that you say you caught too (but do not want to talk about), and so he knew droog was town because of the tell (instead of, you know, knowing who is and is not mafia). So scumGarmr luckily picked droog to hide behind, knowing he would be privately proving something to droog that droog would already knew? Not that Garmr could not pick any other town for the same reason, of course. I must be missing something; please tell me what.

At this point, ac1983fan, you are telling us you are okay with a reinoe, Aeronaut, or Iknal lynch. Garmr is not directly mentioned, but is he lynch-worthy too?

@ac1983fan, 1317: Here, though, you tell us you are okay with lynching geraintm, a townread, because it will get you reinoe? Why not push your scumread to lynch instead of settling for lynching a townread, because lynching someone you think is innocent does not mean you will be able to lynch someone you think is guilty in the future? You have OKed four lynches, maybe five, and I am do not see why geraintm flipping town means reinoe is scum. I am okay with either serrapaladin or you, ac1983fan, walking me through that one, as I am a dunce.

[Madonna]

TSO, voting geraintm would be the equivalent of voting Garmr, and both are opportunistic, if legitimate, targets, and that gives me pause.

[Madonna]

Hi, I had fun. Thanks, Zar, for the moderation and flavor. Thanks, town, for carrying through to the end, and sorry, scum, for your tough odds.

With the Hider outed and telegraphing his targets, scum could have cleaned up better and taken the risk to do so. I feel that would have been a stronger move than their first two night kills, and could have been done either night. Hindsight, of course, is a fantastic position to make observations from.