Mini 1627: Ninja Mini Mafia

acryon · Mon Jan 12, 2015 8:09 am

What's crazy is I still thought you were town going into today, but all of the evidence when I went through just stacked up against you. I think KJ just didn't do enough to read right.

acryon · Mon Jan 12, 2015 8:14 am

In post 1941, Zebulin wrote:Scumteam: Did you set up the Xiao not lynching acryon conviction on me or was that completely accidental?

Definitely interested to see the scum-thread here.

Man, what a bummer

Considering how off many of the town's pushes were this game, I just don't know how we would have possibly determined KJ was scum.

acryon · Mon Jan 12, 2015 8:19 am

I knew I should have gone with my gut and thought about it more, but just looking at them independently, it looked really bad for Zeb and I just didn't see anything with Killer.

acryon · Mon Jan 12, 2015 8:20 am

I know

I wish I wasn't so dead-set on the Boon lynch, but it's one of those things where I could just never forgive myself if he was scum, and I would never know.

acryon · Mon Jan 12, 2015 8:21 am

Definitely 2 of my biggest weaknesses is in reading VI-types and lurker/quiet types.

acryon · Mon Jan 12, 2015 8:22 am

In post 1956, orcinus_theoriginal wrote:
In post 1954, acryon wrote:but it's one of those things where I could just never forgive myself if he was scum, and I would never know.

he trust told super hard

wtfffff killer was scum wtfffffffffff

But again, if he really trust told, then the game is screwed anyway, and I didn't want to play in that kind of game.

I'd rather lose than win because of a trust tell.

acryon · Mon Jan 12, 2015 8:24 am

I definitely take a lot of the responsibility for our loss here, mainly due to the aforementioned weaknesses.

acryon · Mon Jan 12, 2015 8:24 am

In post 1963, Varsoon wrote:
In post 1958, orcinus_theoriginal wrote:im siteflaking

fuck this game

I feel your pain.
Let's both roll scum together in a game sometime so we can win and feel better.

Yeah, I hate being town.

acryon · Mon Jan 12, 2015 8:26 am

In post 1968, Zebulin wrote:
I've never gotten scum.

NEVER.

The game's called "mafiascum" and I've never gotten scum.

Yeah, that's how I felt for a while. Scum is waaaay more fun IMO.

acryon · Mon Jan 12, 2015 8:26 am

In post 1969, Varsoon wrote:
In post 1965, Formerfish wrote:Varsoon, you said scum was between Zeb and Killer.

I also said, a thousand times over, Killer was the last scum.
If you think because I said Zeb could be scum a handful of times, then why didn't you lynch Acyron or yourself, as I said the same shit about both of you?
It was clear when Zeb got run up the other day that he wasn't scum.

Boy cried wolf, etc.

acryon · Mon Jan 12, 2015 8:27 am

Your erratic voting/thinking out loud unfortunately hurt your credibility in my eyes

acryon · Mon Jan 12, 2015 8:29 am

In post 1973, Varsoon wrote:I think town is a load of fun, actually.
I love not knowing shit and making hardcore cases and playing well and catching scum.
The problem is that I get invested too hard as town and when I die miserably or my townteam kills itself and neglects what I have to say, it feels crummy.

As scum I just get to scum it up and that's cool.

I mean town is fun, but scum is more fun. As town, there is just so much out of your control, and that's hard. It definitely gets frustrating.

acryon · Mon Jan 12, 2015 8:30 am

In post 1974, orcinus_theoriginal wrote:i'm actually siteflaking

varsoon i'm about to flip out at you and quote all the bits where you called me scum

No orc, we have a game together!

acryon · Mon Jan 12, 2015 8:31 am

In post 1978, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:GG scum. Once again, lurking wins a game for scum. I don't know what has to happen before people just start policy-lynching lurkers.

Well it's the same sort of thing with Boon. I tend to lynch players like him, but they also often end up being town. And the same can often go for lurkers.

acryon · Mon Jan 12, 2015 8:35 am

In post 1982, Varsoon wrote:Erratic voting?
When I was dead and I flipped town, you didn't stop and think, "Oh man, Varsoon is now CONFIRMED town, maybe I should check his ISO and maybe think about his points?"
Because I pretty much kept a vote and case on Killer half the damn game.

Yes. You voted for probably every single player in this game at some point, most of them multiple times. And that's fine, but it certainly made me wary of your reads.

acryon · Mon Jan 12, 2015 8:35 am

In post 1986, orcinus_theoriginal wrote:please go consult generally well-regarded individuals on how to play JOAT or cop because there are some glaring and objectively wrong facets of your play

To be fair, I don't really know how to play most PRs, so I kind of just wing it.

acryon · Mon Jan 12, 2015 8:37 am

My unwillingness to accept Boon as town definitely hurt us, but I just don't know how I could. He did more things that were anti-town than town. And if he got to LyLo, we would have been screwed regardless probably.

acryon · Mon Jan 12, 2015 8:41 am

In post 1996, Xiao Long wrote:This Orc melt is ridiculous. You probably should site flake.

He's just frustrated at a loss. We all are.

acryon · Mon Jan 12, 2015 8:50 am

If we are going to flame anyone, it should be me for bothering to get myself into MyLo and then making a stupid decision.

acryon · Mon Jan 12, 2015 8:57 am

In post 2004, Varsoon wrote:I like a good pouting, but I'll be k.
When you lose as town, you take your lumps and learn from it.

For instance:
I should have spent more time in ISOs, actually making a consistent and drawn out case rather than just banking on my early one, and never brokering lynches as town.

Yep, as long as we all learn and get better

acryon · Mon Jan 12, 2015 10:44 am

In post 2015, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:I was following this game. Was rather surprised to see a scum-Thor lynch D1 as that doesn't happen very often but I liked Allyra's push + the replace out + Orc convincingly driving home the lynch was a pretty big combination of different factors that led to it. Curious to see if Thor has thoughts about it.

Ironically, I was quite unsure of the Thor lynch, because I didn't get quite the same feeling as I got from Thor in the other game where I was hard-pushing him and he was scum, but he was both times.

acryon · Mon Jan 12, 2015 11:10 am

Thor definitely has a very interesting way of doing things. Some of his comments day 1 were like "holy crap, that is one of the most scummy things I've heard someone say." Posts like 46 to be specific.

acryon · Thu Jan 15, 2015 2:31 am

In post 2028, Thor665 wrote:
In post 2018, acryon wrote:Thor definitely has a very interesting way of doing things. Some of his comments day 1 were like "holy crap, that is one of the most scummy things I've heard someone say." Posts like 46 to be specific.

For the record, I consider that pro-town play and advocate it as solid strategy for town to do.

You may be the only person in the world that thinks pushing someone to L-1 and getting them to claim on page 2 of the game is pro-town.

acryon · Thu Jan 15, 2015 6:19 am

In post 2030, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:Nope, I like it as well.

How is that a good play for town? If it's scum or VT, we get back VT, and if it's a PR, then we just killed a PR on Day 1. How is that possibly good for town?

acryon · Thu Jan 15, 2015 6:26 am

I want to know

how

it's not horrible. Seems like best case scenario is scum/VT says they are VT, and worse case is we kill a PR.

acryon · Thu Jan 15, 2015 6:37 am

In post 2034, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:
In post 2031, acryon wrote:
In post 2030, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:Nope, I like it as well.

How is that a good play for town? If it's scum or VT, we get back VT, and if it's a PR, then we just killed a PR on Day 1. How is that possibly good for town?

I like it for late game wagon analysis. Also, it's good for reactions. It's also good because it's very difficult for scum to fake-claim so early.

We don't always kill a PR either. Think about that one.

Depending on the setup. If we don't kill that PR, then scum just medic dodge and we have essentially nullified the doc instead. There's a reason we don't just massclaim until we hit a PR D1. If it's good, why would you stop at one person? Remember that this is

page 2

we are talking about.

acryon · Thu Jan 15, 2015 6:49 am

In post 2036, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:Nah, because WIFOM always plays a part.

Not just a doc that can stop scum from going after PR either.

I also forgot that it forces scum into early decisions, namely, whether to join the wagon or not. If not, they need a valid reason for not doing so. I personally like to see a counter-wagon to an early wagon as well.

Something tells me there is a reason why pushes to L-1 to force a claim don't happen often on page 2 of games. I just don't buy that it's good at all. Especially since the vast majority of the wagon was RVS votes.

acryon · Thu Jan 15, 2015 6:54 am

In post 2038, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:They get called RVS votes.

But when you're the 6th voter on a wagon, I don't consider that RVS. You know that wagon is building, you know who the person is being pushed, it's not an RVS vote.

Well maybe, but I would argue that at least 4 of those 6

were

RVS votes, and honestly, using the information gained from 1 page of posting to make a serious vote with an intent to lynch seems really terrible. Serious voting for pressure early on is fine, but doing it with an intent to lynch on page 2 tells me you aren't thinking it through. Lot's can be learned on day 1, and speedlynching someone doesn't help that.

acryon · Thu Jan 15, 2015 7:31 am

In post 2041, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:
In post 2039, acryon wrote:
Well maybe, but I would argue that at least 4 of those 6
were
RVS votes, and honestly, using the information gained from 1 page of posting to make a serious vote with an intent to lynch seems really terrible. Serious voting for pressure early on is fine, but doing it with an intent to lynch on page 2 tells me you aren't thinking it through. Lot's can be learned on day 1, and speedlynching someone doesn't help that.

Nah, D1's are usually a cluster-fuck anyway. Plus, IME, D1's go on for far, far too long. There is no need to take every day right down to the deadline, it creates town apathy, it can present town with too much information and I actually think longer days favour scum.

I'm inclined to agree in part. I agree that long days can do that, but take D1 of this very game for instance. If people bought into that idea and lynched Varsoon, it would have been quite bad. But instead, we took our time and got scum.

I'm not opposed to pushing someone to the point of a claim if they actually have a legitimate wagon on them, but a wagon 20 posts into the game with primarily RVS votes on it is not exactly what I would describe as legitimate.

acryon · Thu Jan 15, 2015 7:31 am

In post 2042, Xiao Long wrote:^ But it's not like the only two options are super fast pushes are extremely long days. There are middle grounds. The problem is a lot of townies lack initiative and decision-making.

This.

acryon · Thu Jan 15, 2015 7:32 am

In post 2045, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:I agree.

I think 10-12 pages is more than enough for a D1 in a 13 player game. Providing you don't have a spam poster.

Agreed.

acryon · Thu Jan 15, 2015 7:39 am

In post 2047, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:
In post 2043, acryon wrote:
I'm inclined to agree in part. I agree that long days can do that, but take D1 of this very game for instance. If people bought into that idea and lynched Varsoon, it would have been quite bad. But instead, we took our time and got scum.

I'm not opposed to pushing someone to the point of a claim if they actually have a legitimate wagon on them, but a wagon 20 posts into the game with primarily RVS votes on it is not exactly what I would describe as legitimate.

Sure, we got scum this time. How often does that happen though?

It's not just the person being wagoned who we're looking for reactions from though.

It doesn't happen very often, but I also don't think that means we should just write it off as something we can't get, especially in a mini. Some may disagree, but I'd rather take 15 pages for a 30% chance of scum than 5 pages for a 10% chance (arbitrary numbers, but I

do

think our lynch even on D1 should have a better chance of hitting scum than lynching at random).