Mini 1660 - TTH's Mini Normal (Game Over)

[The Archmage Ludicrous]

I stroll through the moonlit garden as the quartet plays near the center, by a small hedge. The small party has gotten tired—drinks have all been downed, the food is whittled down to bits of cheese and discarded toothpicks. I grimace as I tilt back my glass. The last drop of alcohol has long since left it, but the memories taste just as good. But there was something wrong. I walk to the four musicians, who play sonorous and moving melodies as I approach.

"You there!" I call assertively, but politely, raising my finger to distinguish the man. "What instrument are you playing?"

The quartet stops short. The man in question raises his chin a little and smooths down the short, black whiskers across his face, a full and uncompromising beard and mustache that makes a velvet fur around his chin.

"What does it look like I'm playing? That man there has a cello, that lady has a violin, and my friend on the left, he has a violin as well. Since we are a quartet, I must be playing a viola. Is this really worth interrupting the song?" He is outraged. Ordinarily a justifiable thing, but not in this circumstance. This man had a secret. And I... I knew his secret.

"Look again, patrons of this party!" I cry out for all to hear. "This man plays his instrument, held like a viola. He rosins his bow, as a viola player ought. And he draws the bow across the strings, such as a violist is wont to do. Yet the instrument he holds in his hands is not a viola!"

"By George..." A lady in the audience exclaims. "Why... that would be a ukelele!"

"Indeed!" I aver her suspicions. "And what's more to the point, this man not only plays the wrong instrument, but sings the

Wrong Song

! His cadence is all off as he deceives instead of clarifying, dances instead of dashing, and claims one thing when another is true. This man can only be called scum of the earth—playing a ukelele instead of a cello.

VOTE: Wrong Song

[The Archmage Ludicrous]

Wow, BBT, you're a really aggressive player. Not used to seeing those, this is my second game on the site, and generally the players I've seen have been a lot more passive, particularly on first day. Care to share some of your philosophy regarding this aggressive push for a fairly early lynch on day one?

Also, I'd like to UNVOTE: Wrong Song and VOTE: Ponystar, because of their indecision. I understand wanting to avoid a causing shit during the first day, but not voting when you have suspicion is a bit funky.

[The Archmage Ludicrous]

VOTE: Pisskop

lurking little scumbag.

He hasn't been lurking, has he? He's seemed quite active to me. I think I'll put my FOS on you for blatant falsehood.

[The Archmage Ludicrous]

He's been posting elsewhere. He literally just beetlejuiced into the thread, gave up and OMGUS'd me in the span of calling him out.

It's okay you are obvious scum #2<3

Aw, I <3 you too.

But pisskop's been posting pretty much every page. I wouldn't call that "lurking." Just saying, if we're working on the same definitions of lurking (which we might not be, haven't been on this site very long), seeing multiple posts every page or so isn't lurking. He seems quite overt to me.

[The Archmage Ludicrous]

Not saying he's necessarily town, though. Just that I wouldn't say he's lurking.

[The Archmage Ludicrous]

Spoiler:

VOTE: Skold

Page 2-3 scum lynch anyone?

VOTE: Skold

Page 2-3 scum lynch anyone?

Why on earth would you want a Page 2-3 lynch? Even if Skold is scum (which I doubt. I'm leaning towards him just being an arse) how would an early lynch help town? The answer is: it wouldn't. It would just stop us from communincating and gathering information, putting us behind scum early on in the game. I'm just pointing this out to say my joke vote on you isn't really a joke vote anymore.

Because he's obvscum, the scumminess seeps from the pores of every letter of his posts

Right now Unlynchable is joint top of my scum list. He has consistently been useless by posting unreasoned scum lists without any reasoning, has tried to push for a early lynches multiple times and has just posted completely irrelevant information (I have eyes too you know? You're not special with your ability to read). As the quotes above show he voted for Skold and then asked for us to all lynch him on page 2. He didn't post any reasoning for his vote on Skold (instead he hid behind the reasoning of Jingle) and when I asked him why he wanted an early lynch he avoided the question and just said 'Skold is scum' without any reasoning.

Skold/Pisskop/Collatz

What is this? Not only did he not say this was his supposed scum list he didn't post any reasoning again. Also, please note that he put me into his scum list 7 minutes after I asked him to share his reasons for voting Skold.

3 posts and 3 votes left to lynch Skold, you know what to do

Here he is pushing for an early lynch despite all my posts about why an early lynch would be bad for us. After calling him out on this (yet again) he responded with:

Skold is scum and I want to lynch him efficiently. Sorrynotsorry.

When I asked what 'lynch him efficiently' meant he said:

We could have had a scumflip by now

Which not only ignored the question I aksed but didn't shed any light on anything. Basically, all he said was 'Skold is scum' in a different way. And what made Unlynchable so sure that Skold was scum as he still has not shared his reasons.

Skold/Pisskop/Jingle

Again with another scum list with no reasoning and somehow I have dissappeared from this list once I started applying more pressure. Also Jingle is now on this list after he told Unlynchable to post another scum list with 'less stupid'.

It's page 8

:facepalm:

I merely stated a fact

:facepalm: :facepalm:
This is the most unhelpful thing I've ever seen. How does this help progress the thread toward finding scum? @Unlynchable - you may think you are special with your ability to read but you aren't. I can do it too.

VOTE: pisskop

And now Unlynchable jumped on the Pisskop band wagon and made him get lynched (his vote was the final one). The problem here is that not only did he abandon his, apparently, very strong reasons for wanting to lynch Skold but he also put the hammer on Pisskop without any reasons and without giving him the chance to claim which is what Formerfish had asked for him to do. Not only that but by getting Pisskop lynched with his vote he ignored what I said and what Ponystar also said about how early lynches do not help us in the long term. When Pisskop called him out on the final vote Unlynchable said 'you did all the work yourself' which is just him trying to shift the blame from himself.

Now, at the start of day 2 Unlynchable has voted for Skold again without any reasons (still). If he is still adamant about Skold being scum despite all the more viable suspects I am assuming he has a strong case on him (£50 says he doesn't) so why did he abandon his case to quick lynch Pisskop?

@Unlychable why do you think Skold is scum? Why did you vote for Pisskop? Why did you not wait for Pisskop to claim? Why do you want to end the day early?

tldr; Unlynchable is scum because of how hard he has been trying to get an early lynch (despite warnings) and from all he has been doing to prevent the thread from progressing. This is also along with his blatant bandwagoning.

I'd vote for Unlynchable in this post but I'm already doing so.

I really like this post, and I like the suggested lynch. Unlynchable's been fogging up the game with

lots

of posts about generally nothing. I'll support this lynch. I'm particularly struck by the reasoning he uses in the statement he makes when asked why Skold is scum, and he replies "because he's obviously scum," more or less.

Lynch: Unlynchable

[The Archmage Ludicrous]

Sorry, TTH. I used non-standard voting nomenclature for the sake of the joke.

VOTE: Unlynchable

[The Archmage Ludicrous]

I'm still feeling the Unlychable lynch not only for the irony, but for the sheer sake of how useless he's being. Unlynchable is providing an obfuscating factor by throwing around his votes without reasons, being generally aggravating, and talking a lot without saying anything. I'm sick and tired of it, he's getting in the way without contributing anything I perceive as worth my while.

At this point I hardly care whether or not he's scum, I think that the town will be able to better focus in on the mafia without his interfering presence.

[The Archmage Ludicrous]

UNVOTE: Unlynchable

BBT's attempt to hammer without declaring intent to hammer bugs me. I still despise Unlynchable's plays, but I'm having second thoughts with BBT's chicanery.

[The Archmage Ludicrous]

Alright, I have read the thread. This game is tough and it is basically up to me to sort you all out so what is going to happen is I won't be posting what I think for a couple days while I think things through. In the meantime you can help me, Skold, post a read list and give good detailed explanations for each. Don't bother with my slot I am town and that will become incredibly obvious in the coming days.

I also suggest we massclaim. I am claiming last.

Everyone else can claim in their next post.

Uh... no? If town has power roles, mass claim is terrible for town. If town doesn't have power roles, mass claim accomplishes nothing for town. I think that mass claim without legitimate reasoning is purely anti-town. There's not a single town role in the game that benefits from randomly claiming.

All you PRs out there, don't listen to this guy. Claim on

your

prerogative, when the results that you got over the night benefit town. Oh, and also claim before you get lynched.

Intent was given and be didn't claim. In what world does that not get hammered?

You never gave intent to hammer, and neither did BBT. You guys just fucking hammered.

UNVOTE: Unlynchable

BBT's attempt to hammer without declaring intent to hammer bugs me. I still despise Unlynchable's plays, but I'm having second thoughts with BBT's chicanery.

This is scum talk right here. "On second thought I no longer want to policy lynch this fellow... oh shit, what? The noose has already been fitted? Well, I will get to voice my displeasure in being part of something I now find distasteful. Yeah, that will get them on my side. Man, is it hot in here? My balls itch."

I don't think that wanting a longer day is scummy. I think that Unlynchable wasn't worth keeping around, but I thought that BBT's (failed) attempt to hammer without intent (as far as I could see) was worth waiting a little while to examine. No matter how much of a pain Unlynchable was to play around, I would prefer stepping back and examining things when given the chance.

I think preemptively hammering, without giving people a chance to claim, is an anti-town action. That's why I'mma point my FOS in the vague direction of BBT and Formerfish.

[The Archmage Ludicrous]

Also lol at Archmage FOSing the dead guy.

Fuck, he is dead. Well, shit.

I'd be willing to go for a lynch on fish or Sland, Sland's thing with the claims is probably the scummiest thing alive.

[The Archmage Ludicrous]

Arch, I am well aware that I didn't announce my intent to hammer, I was saying that with BBT voting in the way that he did thinking that it was a hammer that you could infer that people are serious about lynching you and he should have claimed in his next post. Unlynchable failed to claim. Again I will ask in what world that guy would live past that next post?

Well, yeah, it is true that Unlynchable was kinda shafted. Nevertheless, I think it's a scummy thing to do to not at least give intent to hammer. I can see your side of things, though.

'swhy I gave you a Finger of Suspicion, rather than a Fist of Suspicion accompanied with a vote.

I've been mostly feeling Slandaar for lynch now, but he's saying things that make sense with the whole Mylo thing. I didn't realize it could be Mylo.

@Slandaar, I'm willing to play along. Massclaim makes sense if this is Mislynch or Lose.

If today is mislynch or lose, oughtn't we to claim, then to go No lynch for the day? If today is Mylo, I don't see a single situation where going for a lynch today rather than tomorrow is a stronger play than waiting a day.

Vanilla Townie

, by the way.

[The Archmage Ludicrous]

Popcorn, Archmage.

I already claimed.

[The Archmage Ludicrous]

Formerfish, would you please claim, and settle on doing something aside from lurking around the town borders looking fishy?

(heheh I made a pun)

[The Archmage Ludicrous]

I am confirmed town and have chosen not to claim. I am an investigative PR as I have hinted and that is all you need to know. This will probably annoy you, however, think about the fact I claimed PR into everyone, only the vig is claimed leaving me as the 3rd PR. Vig/Doc is too weak for a town which means the 3rd PR, me, is also town. Knowing this you can trust my decision not to claim while also trusting I am a PR and am town which is the goal of massclaim; not to see what PR's we have but to try and reduce the suspects. We wanted to reduce the suspect pool and we have done that - there are 6 players who can be scum now and not 8. Scissor and I are confirmed town. I see no real benefit to me claiming my role so I just won't.

You see no benefit to claiming your role now, but I also see no detriment. Why not claim and give investigative results as a PR here? There's nobody alive with the ability to protect you during the night, and not giving your actual night results is hugely harmful to the town if we assume that you're telling the truth. If you get killed in the night, we have no ability to see your results, and there's no way that the mafia kills the vig tonight. Vig is more or less a dead weight town role this night, more likely to kill the town than to save it. Killing you is the only reasonable thing that the mafia could do this night.

If you do not believe I am confirmed town please look at mini normal setups, 3 PR is average, Doc/Vig isn't enough power for town.

"Isn't enough power for the town" is a bit of a fallacy. The mafia only ever needs power roles in response to the town's power roles, and the town is perfectly capable of functioning without them. I play lots of vanilla mafia at parties, no power roles of any sort, and clever Townies can absolutely ruin a mafia team with no power roles necessary. That's why I'm not a fan of meta-clears like this. It makes sense, but for the reasons further above (you not giving out your results) I find it a bit fishy. Your decisions put me on edge, Slandaar.

I also suggest any anger you may have be aimed at finding scum and not at me as my decision is purely in the benefits of the town.

Thoroughly examining your actions is how we come to a decision as to whether or not you've been bullshitting us. That's pretty important for finding scum, and seeing as we're going nolynch today, to deal with the whole potential Mylo situation, we have plenty of time to talk about everyone.

Moving on.

I initially thought the scum was Skold/Collatz/Scissor.

Scissor obviously isn't but then I had doubts about the Collatz/Scissor combination.

Basically currently I think that;
Archmage is town
Jingle is eh town.

Which leaves the 4 of Wrong/Collatz/Skold/Fishie.

I very strongly believe it's Collatz/Skold + 1. I think it's fish.

I think the MD kill n1 was weak. I think it slightly points to Wrong due to him noticing this which is completely correct;

Hmmmmmmmmmm. mnem's 61 felt town actually. The whole searching the finished game to gleam an early meta read. I like, I really do.

That said Fishies' ISO is incredibly weak and Wrong suspecting scissor I find a plus so I do think it is Fishie.

I am going to post a real explanation for each read at some point, maybe tomorrow/Weds because I won't be on my PC till then. I would really like you all to post an argument/case against someone by then.

@Fish have you played with MD before? (show if so)

These are great reads to know, care to explain them?

I'm gonna do an analysis post later this afternoon. Sorry if it bugs people, but walls of text are kind of my modus operandi. I'll do my best not to crash the website.

[The Archmage Ludicrous]

I have no results worth claiming so don't worry about that.

What kind of power role has results that aren't worth claiming? Especially one that is investigative, as you have heavily implied. A lack of a result is just as important as an actual result. The only possibility I could think of is if you're... I dunno, a Weak Masonizer? Seems a bit out there for a normal game.

It prevents scum perfect information when making their night kill choice of me/Scissor tonight.

Town starts with no information, scum starts with nearly all information. They know that you're a power role, and the vig is useless. If you're telling the truth, there isn't a choice between you and Scissor. They'll kill the one with information. They'll kill the one with potential. In Mylo, that would be you, and you alone. Our vig's hand are tied unless they want to run the risk of losing the game.

"Isn't enough power for the town" is a bit of a fallacy. The mafia only ever needs power roles in response to the town's power roles, and the town is perfectly capable of functioning without them. I play lots of vanilla mafia at parties, no power roles of any sort, and clever Townies can absolutely ruin a mafia team with no power roles necessary. That's why I'm not a fan of meta-clears like this. It makes sense, but for the reasons further above (you not giving out your results) I find it a bit fishy. Your decisions put me on edge, Slandaar.

Why are you talking about mafia PR?

Talking about the theory of the game in general. If you want to argue that the town needs power roles to balance out with the mafia's power roles, that's not correct. It's the other way around. The town has no need for power roles, they're only added to make the town more interesting. This is a normal game. That doesn't mean "X number of power roles, no matter what." The Normal games might very well be totally vanilla: no power roles of any sort. While clearly this isn't a game

without

power roles, we don't really know how many there are. We can

attempt

a meta-clear, but it's not foolproof. Saying that it makes you "confirmed town" that there aren't more power roles is blatant falsehood.

This meta clear stuff is very obvious. If you check site meta the average mini normal has 3-4 town PR. Vig/Doc is a very very weak town and thus I am confirmed. The only way I am not is when there is only 2 scum on the mafia and then well... argue that tomorrow if we end up with a town lynch - scum nk - vig town kill. Not that there is any point to argue that considering I am so town anyways with my activity.

Look. Your meta-clear argument would be very convincing if you were playing like a town player. But calling out a mass-claim without claiming yourself, purposefully withholding information from the town, and then revealing that the reason that you took the last place to claim is in essence

for

your meta-clear argument, and for no other reason? I'm sorry, but that isn't proper logic, in my mind. We trusted you with that last claim spot because there's a lot that many different power roles could have done with it. A tracker could have fingered a mafia role-blocker that they tracked if the role-blocker claimed a non PR. It's a good position to counter-claim from. Leaving any PR claim for last prevents the mafia from doing any weird counter-claiming bullshit, so if you were a cop you would have taken last position in order to capitalize on finding scum. But you did nothing like that.

The meta-clear as a town member would have worked no matter when you claimed. You could have stated, "There are three town roles revealed so far, the meta indicates that it is likely that all claimed power roles are town" after everyone claimed. You didn't need to claim last for that to happen. And you have no productive information that would have required a mass-claim.

We are not nolynching. We are lynching someone and then the vig is shooting.

I'm used to my old mafia rules, didn't figure this an option. Checked the forum, though, and it's seeming like the best choice. We get the chance at two scum kills in a row. If one misses, we're down to lylo. If two miss, we're probably dead. If both hit, then unicorns will orgasm all across the world.

Thing is, if you're a PR that apparently doesn't care about their information being lost to death, but thinks that they are important enough for a mass-claim,

I'm not sure how I feel about you, Slandaar. I feel very ill about you, and while everything you says makes sense, I can't extend the same comment to everything you do.

Gah. I spent too much time on this. I have to go, but I'll be tuning in when I can. I don't have time for my full analysis, sadly, I have to step out for a few hours.

[The Archmage Ludicrous]

What kind of power role has results that aren't worth claiming? Especially one that is investigative, as you have heavily implied. A lack of a result is just as important as an actual result. The only possibility I could think of is if you're... I dunno, a Weak Masonizer? Seems a bit out there for a normal game.

You don't need to worry about what I am. I am town and have made the decision with the knowledge I have which you don't. I have decided the benefit of letting town know is not worth the negative of letting scum know.

Town starts with no information, scum starts with nearly all information. They know that you're a power role, and the vig is useless. If you're telling the truth, there isn't a choice between you and Scissor. They'll kill the one with information. They'll kill the one with potential. In Mylo, that would be you, and you alone. Our vig's hand are tied unless they want to run the risk of losing the game.

The vig isn't useless. He has one more shot and he can use it. The likelihood is I die tonight via scum kill, yes, if I claim my PR and it still has some function then the same outcome occurs. There are benefits to not claiming when I clearly do not need to.

Talking about the theory of the game in general. If you want to argue that the town needs power roles to balance out with the mafia's power roles, that's not correct. It's the other way around. The town has no need for power roles, they're only added to make the town more interesting. This is a normal game. That doesn't mean "X number of power roles, no matter what." The Normal games might very well be totally vanilla: no power roles of any sort. While clearly this isn't a game

without

power roles, we don't really know how many there are. We can

attempt

a meta-clear, but it's not foolproof. Saying that it makes you "confirmed town" that there aren't more power roles is blatant falsehood.

Yes, I see, I didn't understand initially. You are wrong.

In mini normals on this site town is given PR's before scum gets any. A 10 VT 3 Goon setup is not balanced. A setup with doc/2 shot vig is not balanced vs 3 goons which is why I am effectively confirmed town as my role must be town for the setup to be balanced and it doesn't matter what that role is from your POV.

If you do not believe me please check other completed games on site and form your own opinion. I suggest you save time and take my word though. (Which means I am confirmed town and you should try and find scum)

Look. Your meta-clear argument would be very convincing if you were playing like a town player.

I am the most active player in the game. I am the one trying to get this town to do things. I am clearly 'playing like a town player'

the reason that you took the last place to claim is in essence

for

your meta-clear argument, and for no other reason?

Setup (Meta) clearing players in MYLO is fantastic. Instead of 8 suspects there are 6 this increases the chance of a scum lynch.

I claim last because I am town and want the scum to be forced into claiming VT (or fakeclaiming a PR into me but they nearly always claim VT as risk is too high) which has worked. This means any PR claiming before me were very likely to be town. Letting scum claim last is very bad as they can claim PR in safety.

I'm sorry, but that isn't proper logic, in my mind. We trusted you with that last claim spot because there's a lot that many different power roles could have done with it. A tracker could have fingered a mafia role-blocker that they tracked if the role-blocker claimed a non PR. It's a good position to counter-claim from. Leaving any PR claim for last prevents the mafia from doing any weird counter-claiming bullshit, so if you were a cop you would have taken last position in order to capitalize on finding scum. But you did nothing like that.

This just seems pointless. You are wrong.

The meta-clear as a town member would have worked no matter when you claimed. You could have stated, "There are three town roles revealed so far, the meta indicates that it is likely that all claimed power roles are town" after everyone claimed. You didn't need to claim last for that to happen. And you have no productive information that would have required a mass-claim.

As said. If scum claimed last it is easier for them to claim PR which we don't really want. We want claimed town PR's who we can trust are town. The suspect pool is not reduced when scum claims PR.

I'm used to my old mafia rules, didn't figure this an option. Checked the forum, though, and it's seeming like the best choice. We get the chance at two scum kills in a row. If one misses, we're down to lylo. If two miss, we're probably dead. If both hit, then unicorns will orgasm all across the world.

Thing is, if you're a PR that apparently doesn't care about their information being lost to death, but thinks that they are important enough for a mass-claim,

I never said I wanted massclaim because

I

had important information. I wanted it to clear townies which we have done.

I'm not sure how I feel about you, Slandaar. I feel very ill about you, and while everything you says makes sense, I can't extend the same comment to everything you do.

Gah. I spent too much time on this. I have to go, but I'll be tuning in when I can. I don't have time for my full analysis, sadly, I have to step out for a few hours.

I make sense because I am town. You need to trust my judgement on not claiming other than that you have no issue which I can see? I suggest you now make an argument against someone who could be scum.

[The Archmage Ludicrous]

Fuck.

[The Archmage Ludicrous]

sorry

I responded to all your stuff, but something weird happened right before I posted it, and I lost everything

let me write a new one

fuck, that makes me angry, I spent a long time on that

[The Archmage Ludicrous]

What kind of power role has results that aren't worth claiming? Especially one that is investigative, as you have heavily implied. A lack of a result is just as important as an actual result. The only possibility I could think of is if you're... I dunno, a Weak Masonizer? Seems a bit out there for a normal game.

You don't need to worry about what I am. I am town and have made the decision with the knowledge I have which you don't. I have decided the benefit of letting town know is not worth the negative of letting scum know.

I'm really uncertain of this, but as I went through your post I became willing to trust you a bit. My point is, though, if you have any information at all, you should share it before the night, 'cause scum is gonna night kill you no matter what.

Town starts with no information, scum starts with nearly all information. They know that you're a power role, and the vig is useless. If you're telling the truth, there isn't a choice between you and Scissor. They'll kill the one with information. They'll kill the one with potential. In Mylo, that would be you, and you alone. Our vig's hand are tied unless they want to run the risk of losing the game.

The vig isn't useless. He has one more shot and he can use it. The likelihood is I die tonight via scum kill, yes, if I claim my PR and it still has some function then the same outcome occurs. There are benefits to not claiming when I clearly do not need to.

Yeah, I only thought the vig was useless because I thought a mislynch would screw us, but I was wrong. Still, I refer to my point above.

Yes, I see, I didn't understand initially. You are wrong.

In mini normals on this site town is given PR's before scum gets any. A 10 VT 3 Goon setup is not balanced. A setup with doc/2 shot vig is not balanced vs 3 goons which is why I am effectively confirmed town as my role must be town for the setup to be balanced and it doesn't matter what that role is from your POV.

If you do not believe me please check other completed games on site and form your own opinion. I suggest you save time and take my word though.

I'm gonna have to take your word, though it doesn't at all match up with what I've seen personally. You've got more experience though, so I'll trust you on your word

(Which means I am confirmed town and you should try and find scum)

I honestly think that doc vs. three goons is town-weighted, but once again, I guess I'll trust you. We can't absolutely confirm you town, but I guess you're more solid than not

I am the most active player in the game. I am the one trying to get this town to do things. I am clearly 'playing like a town player'

This is the only thing that you've actually said in this post that I blatantly disagree with. More activity most certainly does not equal town, and trying to get the town to do things isn't

always

townie action.

the reason that you took the last place to claim is in essence

for

your meta-clear argument, and for no other reason?

Setup (Meta) clearing players in MYLO is fantastic. Instead of 8 suspects there are 6 this increases the chance of a scum lynch.

I claim last because I am town and want the scum to be forced into claiming VT (or fakeclaiming a PR into me but they nearly always claim VT as risk is too high) which has worked. This means any PR claiming before me were very likely to be town. Letting scum claim last is very bad as they can claim PR in safety.

I spent so much time working on this part of your post, in the original draft of this (that got fucking screwed for no good reason, fuck that) i spent a lot of time writing and re-writing my response to this. In the end, I settled on the knowledge that you're a better player than me ('cause really everyone is, I'm a pile of shit) and that I could trust your reasoning. I'm unsettled by the meta-claim, because in this closed setup it's absolutely unconfirmable, but I'll trust you.

I'm sorry, but that isn't proper logic, in my mind. We trusted you with that last claim spot because there's a lot that many different power roles could have done with it. A tracker could have fingered a mafia role-blocker that they tracked if the role-blocker claimed a non PR. It's a good position to counter-claim from. Leaving any PR claim for last prevents the mafia from doing any weird counter-claiming bullshit, so if you were a cop you would have taken last position in order to capitalize on finding scum. But you did nothing like that.

This just seems pointless. You are wrong.

I'm useless. I'm not surprised that my posts are, too.

The meta-clear as a town member would have worked no matter when you claimed. You could have stated, "There are three town roles revealed so far, the meta indicates that it is likely that all claimed power roles are town" after everyone claimed. You didn't need to claim last for that to happen. And you have no productive information that would have required a mass-claim.

As said. If scum claimed last it is easier for them to claim PR which we don't really want. We want claimed town PR's who we can trust are town. The suspect pool is not reduced when scum claims PR.

yeah you're right. sorry

I'm not sure how I feel about you, Slandaar. I feel very ill about you, and while everything you says makes sense, I can't extend the same comment to everything you do.

Gah. I spent too much time on this. I have to go, but I'll be tuning in when I can. I don't have time for my full analysis, sadly, I have to step out for a few hours.

I make sense because I am town. You need to trust my judgement on not claiming other than that you have no issue which I can see? I suggest you now make an argument against someone who could be scum.

ok

ill do my reads in another post so i dont get screwed by whatever bullshit that was last time

[The Archmage Ludicrous]

In no particular order:

Wrong song:

Bugs me that they haven't said much. Weak suspicion due to their willingness to throw out votes yet very little scumhunting/analysis. Of course, I haven't been stellar on that front either.

formerfish:

He's been recalcitrant, a bit hostile, and hammered Unlynchable pretty ruthlessly day 2. Moderate suspicion.

Jingle:

I'm feeling Jingle for town. Things he's been saying make sense, and he's been doing good scumhunting and analysis since day one.

Scissor:

Pretty much confirmed town.

Slandaar:

I retain some suspicion out of what I'm sure is sheer animal idiocy, but he's pretty much confirmed town too.

Collatz:

I've got a bit of a gut feeling about him. He really didn't want to lynch pisskop, and then wanted to go for Unlynchable, which is all fair and townlike, but my inner paranoia is telling me that's integral knowledge from being scum. Like a setup of sorts, maybe he wants to argue for his towniness by saying he didn't go for pisskop with everyone else? That's kind of what he did recently, actually. His last post. He also references his own ISO a lot. Super defensive play. I've got weak to moderate suspicion of Collatz.

Skold:

Uncertain of him. He's a bit confrontational and aggressive, played the game reasonably with talking about intent to claim and such during the Unlynchable lynch, but I think all of Jingle's statements on him here are totally valid, but I'm still not sure if he's scum for it. Neutral read.

[The Archmage Ludicrous]

Now, I would also refer you to my VCA on Skold:

Vote Count 1,4

Unlynchable

[2] Collatz, Formerfish

pisskop

[6] Jingle, Skold,

BlueBloodedToffee

, scissorhandle, Wrong Song,

pisskop

Skold [3]

mnemonicdevice, Unlynchable, Ponystar17

Ponystar17

[1] The Archmage Ludicrous

Not Voting [1]

Lalendra

There is another pretty bad looking VC which makes Pisskop look like a counter wagon but just take this VC.

Quick verification. What's a VC/VCA?

[The Archmage Ludicrous]

Vote Count/Vote Count Analysis?

[The Archmage Ludicrous]

I could feel a Collatz lynch. I'm not sure what I'd contribute to that than what's already been said, though.

[The Archmage Ludicrous]

VOTE: formerfish

There's lots of shit going on for me IRL. I think Collatz is a strong lynch option, but my gut goes against fish the most. I can switch my vote if necessary to reach a lynch before the Day's end.

[The Archmage Ludicrous]

Hey, TTH, can we maybe get a day extension? Time's running pretty low and not much activity.

[The Archmage Ludicrous]

Finace was in the emergency room tonight. I did not have time to do anything.

Oh wait, is that

Fiancé(e)?

Shit mate, I hope (s)he winds up okay.

[The Archmage Ludicrous]

He's already looking for scissor and Collatz replacements.

[The Archmage Ludicrous]

I'm still feeling the The Archmage Ludicrous lynch not only for the irony, but for the sheer sake of how useless he's being. The Archmage Ludicrous is providing an obfuscating factor by throwing around his votes without reasons, being generally aggravating, and talking a lot without saying anything. I'm sick and tired of it, he's getting in the way without contributing anything I perceive as worth my while.

At this point I hardly care whether or not he's scum, I think that the town will be able to better focus in on the mafia without his interfering presence.

-_-

[The Archmage Ludicrous]

So him being useless is grounds for a lynch in potential MYLO? That is ridiculous.

That's why fishie = scum

It was more or less a word-for-word copy of my case against Unlynchable on Day 2, but with my name instead of his. Pretty sure it was a joke.

[The Archmage Ludicrous]

I've been busier than normal the last few days. I should be able to devote some time to this tomorrow, but I make no promises.

The game's pretty much suspended until the replacements phase in.

[The Archmage Ludicrous]

That's not really an option. If we don't at least make an effort to continue the game, there will simply be more people to replace. I'll send a PM to my replacement list tonight to see if I can help TTH find some

suckers

friendly fellows to replace in, but the game cannot stall out or scum wins.

Fair point. What much can we do, though?

[The Archmage Ludicrous]

You know I am really confident Fish is town.

I'm unsure about fish. His hammer was really, really out there. The hammer alone isn't enough reason to condemn him, though.

[The Archmage Ludicrous]

Explain how the hammer is out there. I need to know where you are coming from with that one.

Eh. Most of the reasons were already provided: you hammered really aggressively, didn't give him a chance to claim. S'why I suspected BBT before I realized that he died.

I dunno about you. You've been really aggressive all game long. Fairly low activity until recently, IIRC. Which I probably don't. As far as I'm concerned, Slandaar, scissor-slot, are town, and the same should apply to anyone. I feel Collatz is currently the strongest choice, but I haven't done any scumhunting of my own. Which I probably should. Poor form and technique to rely off of other peoples' work. Really, Slandaar and to a certain extent Jingle are the only ones doing scumhunting. I'd say that casts Jingle as town, and it does, but I don't doubt that Jingle has the capacity to be scum. Really, this is a lazy town, and I'm too busy to make much difference. I'm just replying in between studying for exams.

[The Archmage Ludicrous]

Hey, TTH? What's the new deadline?

[The Archmage Ludicrous]

Okay - has it been a mass claim, or are people just derping around not doing that and rando-claiming?

It's been a massclaim. Everyone claimed vanilla except Scissor and Slandaar. Scissor is/was vig. You should know that. Slandaar claimed mysterious other power role, but they claimed last, so it's a meta-clear. I guess. I'm uncertain on it, but I'll buy it.

2. Who has advocated massclaim - have we massclaimed?

That was Slandaar.

3. Were their investigation results claimed by Sland? If not - why do you table him?

No investigative results from him. His meta-clear is the main reason why we've been trusting him. If there isn't another town power role, the game would be imba. Since nobody else claimed, it more or less has to be him. I was really doubtful of it, and it still makes me uneasy, but he's the second closest we have to confirmed town—first place going to you.

4. Have you been a lurksack this game?

I know that you aren't asking

me

this question, but I didn't contribute much early game.

[The Archmage Ludicrous]

Why? I haven't read gak yet.

I meant that you should know that you are vig.

Don't get too excited there.
Who do you think is scum and why?

Can't be me, you, or Slandaar. Has to be one of Skold, Wrong Song, Jingle, fish and that guy that just replaced in for Collatz. I don't think Skold is a good lynch, I kind of feel town for him. Wrong Song is feeling ill because of low activity and reasoning. I'm not sure on Jingle. Weak scum on fish. I really don't like Collatz for town. Skold's post here is pretty good in my opinion, and for more than just it's reasoning. I think it's highly unlikely that Skold is buddies with Collatz, particularly for that post. I think we lynch the Collatz replacement, and if he's scum, you vig someone else. If he lynches innocent, you kill Skold. There's the possibility that neither of them are scum, but I don't think that's very high. There's also the chance that both of them are scum, and I think that's an even lower chance.

I think Skold is a worse choice for lynch 'cause he's actually done some scumhunting, and the fact that the Collatz replacement is keeping quiet is making me feel more like lynching them—I think they could be waiting for the storm to blow over before posting. I would like to hear from them, anyways.

Why not?
And do you think that's alignment indicative of yourself?
If not - could you explain why you're telling me this? Clearly you're trying to show me something - what is it?

Not really trying to show you something. I guess maybe I was trying to segue into a conversation I've been looking to have? I'm not new to the game, but I haven't played anywhere with nearly so established a meta or nearly so good players for a long time. I've never been able to figure out what to do in the early game, only it the late game when there's information. Do you have any tips on that?

[The Archmage Ludicrous]

Don't see what that has to do with me asking about whether a massclaim had happened or not.

I was telling you about the massclaim. I said that you were basically confirmed town as a vig. Then I said that you probably knew that you were vig. I see no issue.

How come - he looks like he's given up after only moderate pressure on him, and even encouraged me to vote for him. If he's town - he really sucks. So why do you think he's town?

I think that his case on Collatz is a lot more appealing than lynching him. I'm not going to discount that he really has given up hope—he's a new player. I think we can provide the chap some allowance for some misplays. And more to the point, he's at least been doing scumhunting, unlike Wrong Song, Collatz, and fish. They're my current scum team, though there's some room for doubt. fish did a little something some time back, as I recall, but still, dat hammer.

Wrong Song is feeling ill because of low activity and reasoning.

Okay - what reasoning?

Mm, wording. My bad, I guess? Low activity and low reasoning on Wrong Song's part. Wrong Song hasn't been saying much substantial, as I recall.

I'm not sure on Jingle.

Do you disagree with Slaandarina's proposal that either Jingle or Wolfy are scum?

Yeah. It's totally possible that both are town, and given who's been scumhunting and who hasn't, I think it makes sense for them to both be town.

I think we lynch the Collatz replacement, and if he's scum, you vig someone else. If he lynches innocent, you kill Skold. There's the possibility that neither of them are scum, but I don't think that's very high.

How come?

I don't think it's very likely that they're both scum because attack feels too solid to be a distancing ploy. Skold's a newer player, which is why I think his play doesn't out him as scum. Furthermore, as a new player, I don't feel like he'd try a distancing ploy like that. I could totally be wrong and underestimating him, but I don't really think so. It seems too risky for a new player to try, newer players are usually more cautious as scum, I'd think. I dunno. I don't think scum-Skold would try to drag down a scum-Collatz with him that way.

Wrote that out having misread the question. I don't think it's very likely that neither is scum because Jingle is my stronger townread. There aren't enough towns to go around for Jingle, Skold, and Collatz to be town. Unless there's only two scum, in which case, I dunno. Game be wild. I think that with Jingle as my stronger townread, going among Skold, Collatz, Wrong Song, and fish for a good townread, Skold is the best fit.

the fact that the Collatz replacement is keeping quiet is making me feel more like lynching them—I think they could be waiting for the storm to blow over before posting. I would like to hear from them, anyways.

They've been the replacement for...what, about 24 hours now? Are you seriously thinking that this is them lurking out as opposed to, I dunno, having a long day of work and a planned night of drinking with friends?

Going and looking at his profile - he has been on the site since replacing in. He managed one post, of one sentence, in one other game.
He is currently in multiple games.

Looking at that I suspect, already, that I will loathe his playstyle and commitment to games - but I don't see why I should take it as scummy.
Clarify?

Fuck, it's only been twenty-four hours? Feels like longer. I dunno. Active-lurking can be a good way to let suspicion blow over as scum: the town can be fickle, and you can deflect attention without looking scummy by waiting just long enough for people to be looking the other way. Anyways, having been a replacement and not even saying "Hi" rubs me the wrong way. It's like he's waiting for us to stop paying attention. I don't like it, but I will admit to having a confirmation bias on this.

So are we now seeing your amplified game of being involved, or are you still considering this early game?

I wouldn't say I'm playing my strongest right now... got a lot of shit going on IRL. Not thinking all too much about the game. Still, this is much stronger play compared to my early game. Thanks for the tips.

[The Archmage Ludicrous]

Feeling the Collatz replacement lynch more than ever, just jumping in to lynch Slandaar.

VOTE: Madman

[The Archmage Ludicrous]

What is wrong with FF's hammer?

Fish hammered day 2 without declaring intent, or giving Unlynchable a chance to claim. It's, well, fishy.

What is good about Wolf's case on Collatz?

I think it's very well thought out. Brings in a lot of factors. Collatz was really quite defensive, and the replacement's recklessness isn't endearing me to him.

@Archmage - I suppose you'll edjumacate me on Wolf's scumhunting when you talk about Collaz. How has Jingle been scumhunting - he admited to me that he's been a lurksack, and thus far all he's done is sheep me and make promises of eventual cases. He's been more pro-town than Slaandar insomuch as he quoted stuff he thought was important...but...scumhunting? What am I missing?

Um... Jingle actually didn't do too too much, now that I think of it. I favor Jingle for town more than I do Wrong Song or

Collatz

Madman, but he's maybe equal-ish with fish? I dunno. Fish still is scummier to me, I think.

I think that with Jingle as my stronger townread, going among Skold, Collatz, Wrong Song, and fish for a good townread, Skold is the best fit.

Weren't you just calling Skold townish though? Why not ask me to shoot Wrong Song, or even Fish, both of whom you find scummy?

Shooting Wrong Song or fish would make sense, but as I see it, Skold and Madman can't be scum together because of the way Skold went for Collatz. Skold seeing himself as falling most likely would not try to toss out a teammate instead, I think. He's too fresh a player, and seems a bit too reserved for that. So if we lynch Madman and Madman is scum, we more or less know that Skold is not scum, so we don't shoot him. If we lynch him and he's town, then we can guess with a fairly high degree of certainty that he's scum, since the other town is probably Jingle. But you might be right in shooting Wrong Song if we lynch Madman and Madman is town. I'm highly confident that Madman is scum, but if he isn't, I still would probably suspect Wrong Song more than Skold.

[The Archmage Ludicrous]

If deadline was 12+ hours out then I agree this is an issue.
If not, I don't so much.

Deadline was 6-7 days out. I'm still not satisfied with his statement that intent was implied since BBT thought he hammered him. There was no implication that fish intended to hammer Unlynchable.

Isn't that Slaandarina's case on Collatz?
All Skold seems to do is go 'yeah' sorta...though he's also defending Collatz in the same breath.

Oh.... Oh! Oh, oh, oh. Yeah, that completely changes my opinions. I misread that, thought it was Skold's case for whatever reason. Okay, so a lynch of Madman isn't really conclusive as to Skold's alignment.

I do not really like the way you answered this question - the new answer makes okay sense - but the new answer doesn't seem to line up with your old answer.
Do you think both thoughts make sense together?

The second answer was what I was trying to communicate with my first answer. But they're both

kind of

really moot because they were founded on the completely false pretense that Skold was the one who posted the case against Collatz.

Re-evaluating my reads. Feeling Madman for top scum still, but then fish for second-best bet and then its either Wrong or Skold.

Hey, fish, I'd like some substantive reasons as to why I'm scum aside from fabricated hypocrisy. I'm not acting anything like Unlynchable, that's a silly attack to have made.

[The Archmage Ludicrous]

I have little to no doubt about Madman.

[The Archmage Ludicrous]

Alright, so my issues with Arch start later on, but going back through his iso I found this awesome post:

Spoiler:

VOTE: Skold

Page 2-3 scum lynch anyone?

VOTE: Skold

Page 2-3 scum lynch anyone?

Why on earth would you want a Page 2-3 lynch? Even if Skold is scum (which I doubt. I'm leaning towards him just being an arse) how would an early lynch help town? The answer is: it wouldn't. It would just stop us from communincating and gathering information, putting us behind scum early on in the game. I'm just pointing this out to say my joke vote on you isn't really a joke vote anymore.

Because he's obvscum, the scumminess seeps from the pores of every letter of his posts

Right now Unlynchable is joint top of my scum list. He has consistently been useless by posting unreasoned scum lists without any reasoning, has tried to push for a early lynches multiple times and has just posted completely irrelevant information (I have eyes too you know? You're not special with your ability to read). As the quotes above show he voted for Skold and then asked for us to all lynch him on page 2. He didn't post any reasoning for his vote on Skold (instead he hid behind the reasoning of Jingle) and when I asked him why he wanted an early lynch he avoided the question and just said 'Skold is scum' without any reasoning.

Skold/Pisskop/Collatz

What is this? Not only did he not say this was his supposed scum list he didn't post any reasoning again. Also, please note that he put me into his scum list 7 minutes after I asked him to share his reasons for voting Skold.

3 posts and 3 votes left to lynch Skold, you know what to do

Here he is pushing for an early lynch despite all my posts about why an early lynch would be bad for us. After calling him out on this (yet again) he responded with:

Skold is scum and I want to lynch him efficiently. Sorrynotsorry.

When I asked what 'lynch him efficiently' meant he said:

We could have had a scumflip by now

Which not only ignored the question I aksed but didn't shed any light on anything. Basically, all he said was 'Skold is scum' in a different way. And what made Unlynchable so sure that Skold was scum as he still has not shared his reasons.

Skold/Pisskop/Jingle

Again with another scum list with no reasoning and somehow I have dissappeared from this list once I started applying more pressure. Also Jingle is now on this list after he told Unlynchable to post another scum list with 'less stupid'.

It's page 8

:facepalm:

I merely stated a fact

:facepalm: :facepalm:
This is the most unhelpful thing I've ever seen. How does this help progress the thread toward finding scum? @Unlynchable - you may think you are special with your ability to read but you aren't. I can do it too.

VOTE: pisskop

And now Unlynchable jumped on the Pisskop band wagon and made him get lynched (his vote was the final one). The problem here is that not only did he abandon his, apparently, very strong reasons for wanting to lynch Skold but he also put the hammer on Pisskop without any reasons and without giving him the chance to claim which is what Formerfish had asked for him to do. Not only that but by getting Pisskop lynched with his vote he ignored what I said and what Ponystar also said about how early lynches do not help us in the long term. When Pisskop called him out on the final vote Unlynchable said 'you did all the work yourself' which is just him trying to shift the blame from himself.

Now, at the start of day 2 Unlynchable has voted for Skold again without any reasons (still). If he is still adamant about Skold being scum despite all the more viable suspects I am assuming he has a strong case on him (£50 says he doesn't) so why did he abandon his case to quick lynch Pisskop?

@Unlychable why do you think Skold is scum? Why did you vote for Pisskop? Why did you not wait for Pisskop to claim? Why do you want to end the day early?

tldr; Unlynchable is scum because of how hard he has been trying to get an early lynch (despite warnings) and from all he has been doing to prevent the thread from progressing. This is also along with his blatant bandwagoning.

I'd vote for Unlynchable in this post but I'm already doing so.

I really like this post, and I like the suggested lynch. Unlynchable's been fogging up the game with

lots

of posts about generally nothing. I'll support this lynch. I'm particularly struck by the reasoning he uses in the statement he makes when asked why Skold is scum, and he replies "because he's obviously scum," more or less.

Lynch: Unlynchable

Why is this post awesome? I’ll get to that later.

You know, you could have introduced these two things at the same time. Here, I'll do it for you.

Remember that post I said we would get back to? Well, here we are. Post #418. Archs reads list. Collatz, whose case Arch sheeped to vote Unlynchable, is now a weak to moderate scum read. Going through his iso I can’t find a progression of a read on Collatz, or even much mention of him until this.

Oh dear. My opinions changed. Spooky.

So what is the conclusion from these observations? “I hardly care whether or not he's scum”
Seems pretty cut and dry right.

You were the hammer on Unlynchable.

If you didn't think that the Unlynchable lynch was a pro-town action, why did you do it? Unlynchable was mucking things up, and chewing the scenery in the most distracting fashion.

Then why in his next post does he unvote after the lynch has already gone through? “I still despise Unlynchable's plays, but I'm having second thoughts with BBT's chicanery.” If you still thought someone was scum, why would someone elses vote on them make you change your mind. The only way I think that this would be real is if in the same post he voted for BBT because he felt the “lynch vote” was that bad. He didn’t do that though, he just unvoted. The lone unvote shows me that he wanted to get some town dred off the mislynch, and wanted to absolve himself of the stigma of being on that lynch by showing that he wanted off it when it was just a little bit too late.

I posted that because I hadn't seen your post when I made that. I wanted a bit more time to discuss BBT's actions. After all, if I had seen your post, your lynch, wouldn't have I have commented on it? Occam's Razor kinda demands that we assume I just didn't see your post, and Hanlon's Razor ('cause yeah, not reading all the posts before posting was kinda stupid) does likewise. Logic is on my side, but if you're willing to ignore such a petty little thing to cast scum on me, go ahead.

Then we start getting into the accusations about my hammer. I whole heartedly believe that Unlynchable knew that he should have claimed. BBT thought that he had hammered, so it would only make sense that it could be considered intent. Unlynchable posted another bullshit one liner, and bounced. I came on about 3 hours later, saw what he posted, and then hammered.

Wooo, three hours and an implication. That's a lot of leeway, Major General Mercy. Yeah, no. And you never had an inkling of suspicion as to BBT's actions trying to hammer without intent on his part, yet you're using his actions as a declaration of intent on your part. You can't say that "SEE LOOK I HAD INTENT" by using the actions of someone who didn't post intent as your intent. That's absurd: if you thought intent was important, you would have attacked BBT. Instead, you went for the lynch.

“I think preemptively hammering, without giving people a chance to claim, is an anti-town action.” How do you feel about slots that are in a position to claim, and choose not to? Do you beg them, pretty please claim? Or do you take the absence of a claim as your answer?

Uh, slots that are in a position to claim before being hammer, and choose not to, are in fact asked nicely to please claim. Yes. Are you trying to connect this to Unlynchable, though? You're putting a lot of effort into saying you gave him a chance to claim, but the fact is that you never declared intent.

I’d also like to point out that in this post Arch throws a FoS onto BBT… who fucking died the night before. Smells like a fake town slip to me.

Post #364- Agrees that he can see my side of the hammer situation. Jokes about giving me the FoS and not the Fist of Suspicion and a vote.
Changes his stance on Slandaar, claims, and says that he had no idea that this was mylo. This smells like another faked town slip. He claimed before we all even agreed that we would be doing a mass claim, for what its worth.

Hanlon's Razor, again. You're turning a lot of things that are the fault of my incompetence to me being scum, instead.

Post #401-416- 6 posts where the basis for most of them is the fact that Slandaar wouldn’t claim his role and the results the role has gotten. I found it really hard to believe that you couldn’t think of one good reason why he would not divulge the information he had. The fact that you went on and fucking on about not understanding it made it feel like you were fishing for information, and trying to get his role out there. I got what Slan was saying and figured that the info would come out in time, or it wouldn’t because the info was useless. If he could clear town or confirm scum he would have.

I was a bit aggressive towards Slandaar, yeah. And the reason why it felt like I was fishing for information was because I wanted information. Why wouldn't you? The more information the town gets, the better. I'm trusting him to keep his results now, whatever his reasons, but I saw no reason to hide his results from the town. I still don't, I think it's odd.

Post #465- Vote for yours truly. And for good reasons too… wait, Arch actually didn’t even mention why he switched his vote onto me. Just says gut, and that Collatz is still a strong choice.

You're totally skipping over my attacks against you, mate. Your whole "I TOTALLY DECLARED INTENT" thing doesn't hold ground. I'm now more attacking you for your totally non-town explanation for your hammer than the hammer itself.

#470/479- Both are to the mod for extensions/replacements.

God's wounds, he wants more time to figure things out and more input from players! #TOPSCUM2015

#494- Rehashing the old and tired idea that my hammer was scummy. Even after admitting that he saw things from my point of view. You claim that I didn’t give him a chance to claim when he clearly posted before I hammered.

You're reading a lot into that one line post of mine.

#496- Aggression is not a tell. Activity is not a tell (most times). Admits to not scum hunting.

That's hypocrisy in one statement. You're calling me scum for not scum hunting right after you said that activity isn't a tell (most times). Are (most times) "whenever it's me" and the exceptions "whenever it's you?"

#529- “...but still, dat hammer.” Again talking about my hammer as the only thing that he can point to for me being scum.

Until now, you haven't had much to point at you for being scum for. Out of your thirty-six posts, only seven have been more than three lines. You can't say that me calling you scum for one thing is terrible when that one thing is more or less the only thing you've done.

#570- I feel like in MYLO which Arch has already admitted to believing we may be in, that voting so quickly for a replacement is a bad call. I get that Arch has been throwing jabs at Collatz in absentee, but one post shouldn’t have put him over the top like that imo.

People talking is always better than people not talking. There isn't anything you can do to change that.

#571- Again he says that I didn’t give Unlynchable a chance to claim. THIS IS FALSE. FLAT OUT FUCKING FALSE. NO MATTER HOW MANY TIMES YOU SAY IT, IT IS STILL FALSE. Sorry, I get upset when people lie about me.

False anger much? I've made my case against your "intent." That's bullshit at this point. If cared about giving intent or a chance to claim, you would have gone for BBT. You did not go for BBT. Therefor, you didn't care about giving intent or a chance to claim. Therefor, you are lying. Straight-up. I'm confident now.

#578- “I’m still not satisfied with his statement that intent was implied since BBT thought he hammered him.” Guess this, “I can see your side of things, though,” from #364 doesn’t apply anymore.

Not at all. I was trying to be diplomatic, and was hardly paying attention to the game. But no, I don't think that applies anymore.

So why did you think Unlynchable was scum again?
1. Irony (Check)
2. Uselessness (Check)
3. Obfuscation (Check)
a. Naked voting (Check)
b. General aggravation (Nah)
c. Empty posting (Check)
4. Not contributing up to your standards. (Check)

You aren’t aggravating, but you do fall into the other categories from my perspective.

Oh boy. Trying to reverse-apply this on me, are you? Well, how many of these things did you back up in your post? How did you check them off? I'd like to answer that, but when I turn to find your explanation, I find nothing. My lynch is not ironic—how would it be? I'm not useless, because I'm posting, putting info out there. I might be obfuscating things, but it's out of stupidity, then, not malice. How could my vote against you have any substantial backing? You've barely been contributing the whole game. Empty posts? Jeeze, most of my posts are more than three lines. You can't call me scum on that basis without calling yourself scum, too. And if I'm not up to your standards, I'd like to know what those are. And why I'm the only one who doesn't fulfill them.



Alright. Thanks for this outburst. I now know who scum team is.

Scum team is, almost certainly, FORMERFISH, RATIONALMADMAN, and SKOLD.

I know I've been advocating for Skold's towniness lately, but that was all on the false pretense that I misread one of Slaandar's posts as his. Here's my reasoning:

Formerfish's lynch, and more importantly, his fallacious and hypocritical justifications of that action and his attacks on me, mean that formerfish is scum.

Formerfish has contributed hardly anything the whole game. So whatever he contributes is important to scum. Fish has never attempted to defend anyone in the game... except here.

Unlynch, bullet point me your reasoning on Skold scum.

[/quote][/quote]

Skold goes to vote on my right after fish posts his mostly empty attacks on me.

Skold's also been very neutrally opinionated towards fish, looking at his ISO. Always calling him null read, leaning towards scum, or recently leaning towards town. It's the kind of read that scum has towards scum, from my experience.

And RationalMadman? Let's look at his perspective. So, a townie jumps into a slot that's getting a lot of pressure. They try to push the town towards scum lynch. A scum jumps into such a slot? They try to separate themselves from other scum as much as possible. So of course, RM just votes Slandaar. Trying to contribute as little as possible, I think. But let's look at his slot's posts.

Collatz posted very little. However, he was very, very defensive of Skold: an ISO and a control-f finds more than twice as many mentions of Skold (55) as Collatz had posts (24). He spent a lot of time defending Skold when Unlynchable was shitting around.

Also, voting analysis checks out. None of these three have ever voted for one of the other.

I like this scum team. PoE backs it up. Fish is trying to sheep Wrong, so fish and wrong can't be scum together. Jingle has been contributing, making posts, so I favor him as town over people with less activity. Thor and Slaandar are confirmed town. That leaves Skold, fish, and Madman. I can't think of much that could convince me that those three aren't the scum team.

[The Archmage Ludicrous]

@Archmage - could you vote Wrong today though? I promise my kill shot is 100% going to be within your scumteam if he flips town.

fish is voting for Wrong Song, too. If fish is voting for Wrong Song, I find it unlikely that Wrong Song is scum. There's a possibility fish is trying to bus a teammate, but there's a strong link between him, Madman, and Skold as scum.

At this point, I think we know exactly who scum team is. I'll still lynch Wrong Song before the day ends if we can't land a lynch on Rational, but to me, Rational is infinitely more scummy than Wrong Song and a far better lynch. If you're really convinced on Wrong Song, you can shoot Wrong Song during the night. But a scum lynch on Rational confirms paints Skold as scum, and Skold as scum confirms fish as scum. Not to mention, fish's absurd lurking, hypocritical attacks on me, and self-contradictory justifications of his actions more or less confirm him as scum. Skold is the common link between the two scummiest players in the game at this point in time.

[The Archmage Ludicrous]

I would much rather lynch Wrong than shoot Wrong.
I am happy to consider shooting Fish or Skold.

Why?

[The Archmage Ludicrous]

STOP

. Stop right the fuck there. No. That's not close to a good excuse. ''I'm sorry officer I just didn't bother reading the speed limit signs''. Yeah....no.

No Occam's Razor demands we don't assume based on your word that we didn't see your post. It's a more radical assumption that you decided to not read the post than it is that you did.

So you're saying that the simpler option than me not seeing a line of bolded text is instead that I consciously chose to unvote someone who had already been lynched, in some harebrained scheme to get town favor? Occam's Razor favors simplicity. The simple option is not to bank on the idea that I'm creating some WIFOM-filled plan to make you think I'm town by doing something stupid. Could you explain this in further depth for me?

Your next paragraph is just....fucking illogical. What can you expect Fish to do, Archmage? Unlynchable had already the chance to claim. He chose not to. That's on him and him alone.

Care to explain why? My logic makes sense to me. I'll lay it all out, and you tell me which part is broken.

Fish is justifying his hammer by saying that Unlynchable was given the chance to claim, he refused, so three hours after Unlynchable refused, fish hammers. In essence, it is simplified as the statement "formerfish had declared intent, therefor his hammer is justified." fish's argument then attempts to state how he had justified intent through BBT's attempted hammer and Unlynchable's failed claim: "Unlynchable had failed to claim, and BBT attempted to hammer, therefor intent is implied."

I am not attacking his justifying statements, no matter how convoluted they are. Rather, I am following a statement derived from fish's primary statement, the basis of his argument. It follows that if formerfish had declared intent, then his hammer would be justified, it is therefor true that "If fish did not have intent, then his hammer is not justified by his intent." Asofar, we have only been operating off of formerfish's logic. Now, we bring in the first logic that is purely mine: "If fish states that his hammer would not be justified without intent, then he is implicitly stating that he cares about intent." Call this Statement 1.

Fish's actions demonstrate that he had no care for intent when he hammered Unlynchable. Statement 2 is that "BBT attempted to hammer without declaring intent." Statement 3 is that "If formerfish cared about intent, he would object if someone attempted to hammer without intent." Therefor, Statement 4 reasonably follows that "If formerfish cares about intent, he object to BBT attempting to hammer without intent." Statement 5 is that "formerfish did not recognize BBT's attempt to hammer without intent, therefor formerfish did not object to BBT attempting to hammer without intent." Statement 6 is that "formerfish used BBT's attempt to hammer without intent to justify his hammer, therefor formerfish does not retroactively object to BBT's attempt to hammer without intent." Statement 7 is that "Statements 5 and 6 contradict Statement 4, therefor Statement 4 is false." My final statement is "Statement 4 contradicts Statement 1, therefor fish does not care about intent."

Since fish did not care about intent, his hammer cannot be justified by intent. Therefor, his defense falls.

Onto the next paragraph: The hammer wasn't bad and nor was the defense.

''Major General Mercy''. You can't honestly expect him to be merciful to someone who refuses to cooperate, refuses to claim, refuses to do shit. This case is bollocks, and you know it.

Actually, that's the same paragraph. You're making statements, but not explaining your arguments behind them. For both statements, why?

Fuck. No. Right, moving on:

Yes. Very informative. Well thought it. A very good rebuttal.

When you have six days before deadline, asking someone nicely to claim is a good choice, I think. You know. Instead of hammering right away.

Formerfish has not said he gave him a chance to claim. He has said he was given a chance to claim. After BBT tried to hammer he had every chance to claim in his next post. He chose not to. Don't distort the facts.

Okay. If we substitute the way I phrased it for the way you phrased it, how does my case change?

Hanlon's Razor DOES NOT APPLY HERE. If you know there is a given amount of malice (the scum team) then you attempt to distribute the malice. We'd be no lynching if we took anti-town actions as incompetence instead of scum and you know it.

That's a fair point.

Here is one: He is secretly a cop without any results because his slot was afk. He wants scum to think he's got results on a different role to scare them.
Another: He has non-alignment indicative results eg. A tracker non-result. I could spend all night conjuring reasons, some good, some bad. All you need to know is that Slaandar is town and it's pretty much confirmed.

Am I attempting to dispute that? I'm saying that it makes me feel off, not that he's scum.

You could be inactive (very few posts) but in your few posts, you are scum hunting. You could also not be scum hunting but also be very active.

But that doesn't really apply to fish, does it? He's been contributing remarkably little to any conversation. It's only recently that he wrote a substantial post. Most other posts were within five lines or less. The vast majority are three lines are less.

Except when the more or less only thing he's done isn't scummy, your fabricating a reason to vote.

Right. Hammering without explicit intent six days off deadline isn't scummy. I'll keep that in mind. /sarcasm

---

Skold, how do you reconcile your scum team? I've been going for Collatz all day, more or less. What is the link between the members of your scum team?

Thor, how many votes are there on Wrong already?

[The Archmage Ludicrous]

Right. No lynch > Lynch whenever given the opportunity.

While I prefer any lynch involving RM, I am declaring intent to hammer rather than allow a NoLynch.

Wrong Song, if you have any further insights as to who is and isn't town, now would be a good time to get them out there.

[The Archmage Ludicrous]

Right. I'm not sure I'll get a chance to be on for the next few days, so I'll hammer now.

VOTE: Wrong Song

[The Archmage Ludicrous]

RIP Thor.

I'm not gonna cast a vote out, 'cause it's Lylo and I'm not stupid, but I'm down for the immediate lynching of fish or Madman. It all fits in my eyes.

[The Archmage Ludicrous]

If Sland doesn't want to claim, he doesn't have to.

[The Archmage Ludicrous]

Let's do a quick paranoia check, and figure out everyone's remaining scumteams.

RM and formerfish, here.

[The Archmage Ludicrous]

I currently think it is you for saving Skold D1.

Fish and Skold looked like super buddies. You think that there's a chance of scum team being Jingle and fish? RM looks super scum, but we've been told that he actively plays against win con. Maybe get a replacement for RM before deciding anything?

[The Archmage Ludicrous]

Arch I think your reasoning for suspecting me is weak as shit and your desperate need to point out I'm part of the scum team in just about every post you make is getting old. Show me where you come to the conclusion that Skold and I are super duper butt buddies instead of just alluding to it.

I already talked about this once, in the one thread where I attacked you and you relied on Skold to defend you instead of saying anything for yourself.

Here:

Alright. Thanks for this outburst. I now know who scum team is.

Scum team is, almost certainly, FORMERFISH, RATIONALMADMAN, and SKOLD.

I know I've been advocating for Skold's towniness lately, but that was all on the false pretense that I misread one of Slaandar's posts as his. Here's my reasoning:

Formerfish's lynch, and more importantly, his fallacious and hypocritical justifications of that action and his attacks on me, mean that formerfish is scum.

Formerfish has contributed hardly anything the whole game. So whatever he contributes is important to scum. Fish has never attempted to defend anyone in the game... except here.

Unlynch, bullet point me your reasoning on Skold scum.

Skold goes to vote on my right after fish posts his mostly empty attacks on me.

Skold's also been very neutrally opinionated towards fish, looking at his ISO. Always calling him null read, leaning towards scum, or recently leaning towards town. It's the kind of read that scum has towards scum, from my experience.

And RationalMadman? Let's look at his perspective. So, a townie jumps into a slot that's getting a lot of pressure. They try to push the town towards scum lynch. A scum jumps into such a slot? They try to separate themselves from other scum as much as possible. So of course, RM just votes Slandaar. Trying to contribute as little as possible, I think. But let's look at his slot's posts.

Collatz posted very little. However, he was very, very defensive of Skold: an ISO and a control-f finds more than twice as many mentions of Skold (55) as Collatz had posts (24). He spent a lot of time defending Skold when Unlynchable was shitting around.

Also, voting analysis checks out. None of these three have ever voted for one of the other.

I like this scum team. PoE backs it up. Fish is trying to sheep Wrong, so fish and wrong can't be scum together. Jingle has been contributing, making posts, so I favor him as town over people with less activity. Thor and Slaandar are confirmed town. That leaves Skold, fish, and Madman. I can't think of much that could convince me that those three aren't the scum team.

In essence, you've hardly posted anything, but you did try to defend Skold once. Skold defended you. Skold changed his vote to me after your post, lynching for me after your post. Skold kept a very neutral opinion about you for most of the game, until the end, where he read you heavily as town. Either it's a series of unfortunate events leading to Skold making a very convincing looking fake buddy, or you're scum. Plus, I still buy exactly zero percent of your attacks against me and zero percent of your justification for hammering Unlynchable.

[quote="In post 671Why do you think there is going to be a replacement for RM?[/quote]

Because he's blatantly trolling.

[The Archmage Ludicrous]

Jingle is town I forgot to say that.

So we are left with 2 possible scumsies with RM.

Fishie is scum #3 I am pretty sure.

How do you know Jingle is town?

[The Archmage Ludicrous]

Thinking about it after

Jingle and Skold

have said they thought Slaandar is town I now realise he is probably town too. I took the 'I want to go last' and thought it was scummy when if he was scum he wouldn't say he'd go last as it's too obvious.

I'm a Vanilla Townie.

@Jingle - why do you want to lynch Skold?

I think Collatz doesn't put both his buddies here.

This was also him backing down when he saw TAL backing away (the town interest)

Right, right. Yeah, that makes sense. I want to be sure, I think I'm gonna ISO Jingle to see if there's anything that prevents him from being scum with fish. If that's the case, I'd feel very confident in the RM lynch.

RM is this the part of the game where you start taking shots at random people to see what you can get traction on? I guess I would be a better choice for that than the pseudo confirmed town you tried to run up yesterday.

This is not pro town play from RM. I will place a vote here in 5 hours unless someone objects.

...You didn't, and I don't think anyone objected. You and hammers just don't seem to get along. You not hammering when you declared some kind of intent seems inconsistent with your earlier behavior, care to comment?

Makes me feel a lot more comfortable with the RM/fish scum team.

[The Archmage Ludicrous]

Blergh. Not much that prevents fish and Jingle from being scum-buddies, as far as I can tell. Not a risk I feel like taking. Jingle, care to comment on the situation? I want to trust you, because you seem infinitely less scummy than RationalMadman, but RM is screwing with the game. I can't take anything he posts seriously because as far as I know, he rolls dice to figure out what he says.

[The Archmage Ludicrous]

Okay, found something.

Vote analysis says that Jingle and Fish can't be town together, because then RM would be town and fish would have hammered RM and won the game.

Therefor, the only two scum teams are Jingle and RM or fish and RM. The RM lynch is safe every time.

fish's hesitation in voting and inconsistent behavior regarding intent reinforce my opinions on the scum team. I am even more certain than before that RM and Formerfish are scum.

I will hammer RationalMadman following one post by each player in the game, if no player posts any objections.

Or before the day ends, in case RM does something screwy like never posting for the rest of the day.

[The Archmage Ludicrous]

Oh, he's not? I thought it was you and...

Right. Yeah. I guess nobody else was voting for him. I swear I remember someone voting for him early on.

Looking back, I think I misremembered your early vote-unvote thing as a different vote on him. Um...

Uck. Now I don't know whether or not you're scum with fish again. You and fish have had very border-neutral, wishy-washy opinions of each other all game, which doesn't look good in my eyes. I like RM for scum a lot more than I like you for scum, and I know fish is scum, but the connection between you and fish seems a bit stronger than the one to fish and collatz/RM. Collatz/RM pair is connected through them both being connected through Skold, but you and fish connect straight up. You came out the gate gunning for Skold yesterday, which does look well on you not being scum, but...

Bleeeegh. My paranoia is through the roof. I think that if Jingle's scum, then scum wins the game. I can hardly see myself lynching him over RM. I go for fish every time, though.

[The Archmage Ludicrous]

Reading into RM's plays are useless to analyze, because he's clearly trolling. There's so much WIFOM I don't even want to think about it.

What do

you

think his vote means? You've played with him before, you know his MO?

[The Archmage Ludicrous]

Fish, "everything you've said before" has been rebutted to a certain extent. Failing to acknowledge my defenses and attacks is a bit odd of you. Also, if RM had volunteered to be bussed, and I'm the other scum, why haven't I hammered him or voted for him, at all? In fact, what interactions between me and RM make us two in particular seem like scumbuddies?

Jingle, why do you think you'll be dead tomorrow?

My paranoia still is shouting at me that Jingle

could

be scum, but at this point, I think I've resigned to the idea that if Jingle is scum, town loses. His conflicts with Skold seem to indicate that he's not scum, though.

[The Archmage Ludicrous]

I was willing to hammer RM before, but right now I'm terrified. The fish/Jingle scum combination is one that I can't entirely rule out, but I'm certain about fish being scum. His consistent failure to rebut my points or mount any significant defense only solidifies my suspicion.

I'd definitely be willing to hammer if fish was on the block, but I'm no longer feeling confident enough that RM is scum for me to hammer him.

@Jingle, why are you so certain RM is scum? I can't read him. You haven't elaborated on the sort of trolling he does from your past experience with him, can you tell me why your knowledge of his trolling makes you think that he's scum? Going for the easy lynch on RM seems like the sort of thing scum would do in LyLo on this last day, since everyone knows he won't mount any defense. I'm concerned of the possibility that you and fish are buddies going for that last lynch. I don't like you for scum, because you attacked Skold pretty heavily, but I'm just that one ounce too disquieted to trust you on word here.

Afternote:

Looks like Sland hammered while I was typing this up. Either we lose the game, or we win. Let's cross our fingers.