Mini 1668 - Mafia in Bremen - Game Over!

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vote: notanaxehole

He is obviously an axehole

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UNVOTE:
VOTE: BBT

I know we're still in RVS but you can do better than looking for any possible waggon. On the bright side, now you can hop on to your own!

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It was not a serious suggestion.

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You seem far too confident in your reads for this stage of the game.

I agree. Page 3 is also pretty early for associative tells to be truly indicative.

We also have to consider the possibility of multiple scum factions, right? That's my current understanding at least.

I apologize that so far I haven't been terribly in depth and mostly haven't been too analytical (and mostly critical), I've been at work all day and will be able to contribute more significantly later tonight and this weekend.

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Obviously nothing wrong with speculation and a bit of arrogance, I think it's going to make this game a lot of fun. I think it's great to press as we will be able to get into productive parts of d1 sooner but we still have to wait on a few people to contribute more, myself included.

@RC this is my first game of this format so yes I am wondering about the balance of pr, multiple scum factions #of town, etc... And I only brought it up since scum pairs were being mentioned already (also early). It seems to me that this format should make associative tells even more difficult. I also brought it up in case anyone else was in a similar position and hadn't taken the time to read up on it.

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@Dan (82)

regarding your last line, I believe it assumes I won't follow up (which I plan to). You'll see over time that I plan to be posting moderately frequently and hopefully with meaningful content, so I hope that the context of my post makes more sense as the game moves forward.

I am not arguing against making associative tells, just pointing out that if anyone wants to convince me on their own opinions it is unlikely to happen so early (although, we have seen some interesting reactions so far)

I explained in post 75 why I brought up multiple factions, and I maintain that given my position it was a solid point to make - particularly in regards to early associative tells. If anyone has played multiple games in this forum and wants to explain to me why I am wrong, I'd be happy to hear about it. However, from my experience with mafia, I assumed that it is good to remind town that there may be multiple teams to look out for... how is that bad?

I also agree that having pressure on people is a great way to move out of RVS, I was simply pointing out that BBT seemed to be voting quite liberally according to arbitrary wagons which appeared on the first few pages. My vote on BBT was actually exactly for that purpose - not meant as a strong scumread but more meant to apply pressure to an existing wagon and see what comes out of it.

Anyways, next post coming to give general thoughts on the game so far.

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I am wary of Brain's post 12, but this could very easily be a joke post on the first page, so I don't give too much thought to it immediately.

I think that Reverend's self vote on post 15 caused some interesting, dialogue, most notable in posts 18,30, and 33. The result of this for me is a very slight scumread / anti-town on BBT and the opinon that Reverend should be interesting to play with throughout this game - null read for now.

PB makes a poor point in 43 which gives me a slight scumread, but BBT responds well to it. PB then makes post 53 which seems overly aggressive, but then in 55 and 57 backtracks / clarifies, so I am more inclined to go with it not being a serious post.

I want to see more from RadiantCowbells, as so far the posts have seem very reactionary and not too analytical, but ultimately I don't have a read either way at this point.

I like Dannflor's post in 82 for the most part [including sarcasm] although I think he is intentionally ignoring some of my previous posts in which I already answered some of the questions he asked - this makes me feel like he could be trying to jump on a seemingly logical bandwagon and so I have a slight scumread. However, since multiple people have brought up the scumminess of discussing multiple scum-teams so early, I will be willing to drop my scumread given a decent explanation as to my mistakes / misunderstandings of optimal strategy so far.

I also like Dannflor's post in 85 as well, which makes me less confident in a scumread, but at this point there isn't exactly enough content for me to be particularly confident either way.

In general, I am happy with my vote for the moment as I believe it has potential to add to the discussion, but I will strongly consider changing it depending on how the next few pages go.

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Jake has made some really insubstantial posts which I am not a fan of, but there isn't enough there for me to make any read but null, and I'd also like to say that I am very interested in the ongoing poke-battle.

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I want to see more from RadiantCowbells, as so far the posts have seem very reactionary and not too analytical, but ultimately I don't have a read either way at this point.

guessing this is your first game as scum.

welcome to the party.

You're simply proving the point I made... and your read incorrect.

Is that an implication that you are scum?

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@Dannflor (and somewhat Reverend)

I think you made some decent points in response to my posts, and I agree that I did not have particularly strong scumreads at that point - at this point that would be impressive [if accurate].

The purpose of me posting what I feel could be scummy and what I feel is insufficient [and therefore null] is to hold people accountable. Obviously my comment on Jake was fluff, but he responded explaining why he hasn't posted so far yet. To me, that validates my post about him. I will be scumhunting from the pool of the 12 other players in this game, not only the 3 or 4 who are active, and so I think it is important to hold people accountable for their post count, post length and quality (PB - really not doing a great job here), etc... and not let lurking slide. And obviously I didn't call everyone out for it yet, but as we progress, if I want to see more from someone, I will not hesitate to say so.

I understand being wary of my light reads, but if there is a point in them that you actually disagree with I'd be more than happy to discuss it further.

Regarding my vote on BBT, it was essentially his own logic but applied to what I considered to be an anti-town position. At this point, looking at the vote count, I am not happy with my vote, as I both like BBT's play better and also am wary of my voting companions.

VOTE: unvote

My strongest read right now is on Brain, who has managed to post a lot but without adding any content, and I'd discourage that. At the very least, his behaviour seems quite anti-town.

VOTE: Brain

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@TheDude

You've made a couple pretty broad statements so far - care to explain your reasoning?

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I'm leaning towards BBT's side on this one. Reverend you seem to be defending a weak position awfully hard, and I'm not sure it's necessary.

I'm mostly willing to let go of shenanigans on the first page, but it should be apparent to everybody that any post doesn't necessarily reflect one's beliefs or intentions. A self-vote should be an obvious extreme example of this, and I don't understand why you are pushing so hard against BBT's points. I do not think BBT is coming across as scummy in his attack on you, which should be what you are looking to determine from your post anyways. Given that, why continue with this defense and not look elsewhere?

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I don't think you'll get a scumread on BBT from this line of inquiry, as he is making legitimate points. If you think this argument will get you somewhere, go for it. It is perfectlyreasonable for me to express that I think the town has better things to do, assuming you are town. To me it seems like you are justifying bbts stance.

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I think that this entire interaction between Reverend and BBT has shifted towards BBT looking more and more town, and Reverend looking less town. Yes, BBT could easily be scum and tunneling on Reverend while still asking a few simple questions to others, and if this is the case I simply don't think the argument with Reverend is likely to cause him to slip. It's based mostly on semantics. So, until I see BBT slip something, I'm happy with a town read, and will stand by that. - This ignoring the fact that I don't like his original couple of posts, but as I've mentioned I'm generally forgiving of very early posts and see that now as a difference in playstyle choice.

I would like to see TDA post a bit more since I have a hard time believing his current posts come from a townie.

@Axe & Elyse (and anyone else) - why the townread on RC so far? She has 7 posts, most of which say nothing. This isn't OMGUS, but really she hasn't done much yet. I'm hoping post 167 pans out.

I like Elyse and Dannflor for town at the moment, I agree in general with most of their reads.

@The Reverend post 155 - What line of inquiry? Starting at post 126 it really devolves and in my opinion stops benefitting town, thus my statement to that effect shortly thereafter.

@Dannflor in 151.
1) Yes I have made many observations, the majority of which up until this point have not led to a firm stance. Considering the stage we are at in the game, I am comfortable with my posting to this point, and don't feel that I need to have strong reads on everybody. I think providing my opinions, regardless of the alignment indication, can either help influence other people's opinions or allow counterarguments to help me adjust my own.
2) It was not my intention to say that wagons are bad - I don't believe that at all. I just dislike the out-of-the-gate "I need to vote on a wagon, refuse to start one on my own, and will hop onto any that exist." I also never said that because discussion was generated it led to a town read, you are putting words in my mouth. I am, however, admittedly biased against lurkers, and want to make sure I am able to consider posts from everybody before making stronger reads, which has contributed in large part to your criticisms of my posts. I attribute this to playstyle, but you're obviously free to take from it whatever you like.
3) Regarding PB, it was the aggregation of useless posts along with the small reads from one or two of them, which make me think it is unlikely town would start like that.
4) I feel like I've already addressed in this post why I had an immediate dislike to BBT's start of the game. Since then, he has asked a few people valid questions and has pursued Reverend in what is a justifiable position and to a degree that I read as likely town - which more than one person agrees with. I don't think it's fair to assume that my BBT vote was indicative of a really strong read (in the context of all my posts, that's obviously not the case). I didn't like his early posts, voted for him, and decided that once was wagon hopping was done I slowly started to like his posts better. Pretty simple.

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I really dislike 155 as well. I, as I have stated many times, really think that the argument between you two was not producing any results other than against you [reverend], and mostly revolved around semantics. I think it's pretty absurd to suggest that I was nervous for BBT, who was in my opinion, in absolutely no danger and in fact seemed to be getting the better of you (I'm not the only one who has mentioned this).

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Reveren... How can I possibly piggyback off someone when I mentioned it first. You can't simultaneously attack me for supporting BBT and then tell me that that position came from a later post from Elyse. That's silly.

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@dan we can agree to disagree as to the value of the content of some of my earlier post. I think it is valuable to have pointed out posts of interest and my reaction to them, regardless of whether that reaction is a definitive read. Let me know if I need to expand on this but at this point I feel like I've made myself clear and don't want to waste more words unless you feel like it will help your reads.
@Elyse fair enough, but that isn't terribly helpful in the context of me forming my own read on rc.

RCS initial vote on me was for mentioning the possibility of multiple factions I believe (not rereading right now, sorry if I'm wrong) and I really think that that particular argument doesn't hold weight in light of my defense of it. I understand your reads are based on more than that, but rc started there, and in general hasn't added more than a few sentences, which I don't like.

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Will consider the simultaneous post by rc soon.

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I've already commented that I'd like to see more than one sentence posts from you, and have asked others to explain their reads on you in more detail than "meta".

I think your post 183 is a gross misrepresentation of my play to this point. I'd like for you to elaborate on it if you are interested in a qualitative response from me than the next few sentences.

We are obviously far from a lynch - several people have contributed almost nothing. Jake and Axe are both busy and will be (hopefully) starting to post more in a few days. The pokebros haven't posted in a while. TDA and Brain have both been lurking / avoiding this game / not posting enough anyways. Havoc has barely posted anything. No one should be worried about a quick lynch as D1 still has a lot to offer.

I haven't responded aggressively to either Dan or Elyse, the only two (I believe) who have commented in length about me [not forgetting reverend, just omitting him as his arguments are not of the same quality or motivation], and I have done my best to respond to their concerns while standing up for what I believe to be town-oriented posts. I am trying to catch scum here and I am confident that I will be able to do it (with the rest of you, of course).


- of course several more posts happen while writing this...

To some degree, I can understand where Dan and Elyse are coming from, even though they are incorrect in their conclusions. I remain moderately concerned with you because you haven't really expressed yourself, which is worth questioning.

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@184 - there are several better votes than you right now. I really don't like your average post length but I'm willing to admit the possibility that I am (obviously) just biased against it. I'm comfortable acknowledging that possibility but I won't clear you of my suspicion until I see some more content anyways, as it would be easy for scum to hide and skim through the early stages of the game like that.

Your vote on Dan has been your most substantial post, and most of it is complaining about him not providing sufficient reasoning or motivation. I find that to be somewhat ironic, can't you see that? [Once again, several posts have been made while writing this, so will possibly update yet again]

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@RC - to what legitimate argument do you refer to in 186? I think having a better understanding of that will help me form a better opinion here.

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You've referred multiple times to me being more concerned with myself, and others perception of me. The specific post you are referring to there (even the quoted sentence) was directed at you and had nothing to do with my caring about your perception of me. It seems like a very poor redirect.

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In 179, you voted BBT for meta reasons.

In 184, you specifically told everyone to figure out your own reasons.

In 186, you refer to a legitimate argument that happened somewhere in between but has mysteriously vanished upon re-read.

Explain.

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Fair enough. The grittiness of your posting is starting to grow on me. [In a - I'm enjoying it more now way]

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@MOD: I know nobody really cares that much but the VLA End date for Axe has been set to June 4, shouldn't it be May 4? [Resisting urge to add useless star wars reference]

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@Dan: Are you actually comparing my posting to PB right now? That seems to be overkill and extremely selective.

@RC - I am reading through your game where you hammer BBT. I immediately notice that your post count was lower to being with but the overall quality and level of interest in your posts was significantly greater there (at least in D1). Are you able to explain that?

That being said, I do see some immediate similarities between BBT's behaviour in each game, but I'm not willing to say that it is his scum playstyle as opposed to his general playstyle. You obviously would have a stronger opinion on this, that's just my initial comment.

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*lower to begin with.

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@Dan I am trying really hard to like that post, but for some reason my first impression is really bad.

Of all my posts, I don't think 222 is the post that should be starting the thought process that maybe your read was off (I understand you are just responding to it and there is probably more). I don't like that all of a sudden you realize how little PB has posted and hop onto a really convenient wagon that's been there for a while. 11 posts in the firsts three pages, 1 in page 4, and 1 later. The first few are game-related but if a player's contributions are almost exlcusively p1 or p2, something is seriously off. Several players have called him out, you should have seen this earlier. I don't mind your vote only coming now as much, but you should have realized the behaviour existed.

You then agree with me that the posting styles of me and PB are really not fairly comparable, which makes me think you could have been trying to be opportunistic beforehand, and took the obvious out when I called you out for it.

Most importantly, you have basically decided to sit on a big PB fence and vote for him, which you've essentially been vocally upset at me for allegedly doing, which you even mentioned in that post. I feel like this, alongside with the fact that if you missed PB's behaviour earlier, you've probably still got a lot of other things to catch up on, make me very suspicious of the rest of the content you've posted.

The amount of lurking is something else that I've mentioned several times, and I mean SEVERAL. As early as page 5 (post 120), post 169, and post 192 are all examples of me making it very clear that not everyone is contributing and it is entirely possible we have tvt going on. I have used many of my posts to call people out to ask them to be more detailed in their posts (TDA, RC) or to post more (Jake) (probably others).

My real difficulty here is that I agree with most of your post. PB would be playing a really weak scum if he actually scum flips. There are too many lurkers. It just seems like your post is designed to feel organic and original but in fact agrees with a lot that I've been saying without explicitly mentioning it, and shows that you've been to this point selectively looking at specific posts and ignoring others before posting. That seems more scum than town.

ugh there's just so much there that has been obvious for ages, and it shows you didn't really look before comparing me to PB, as you've obviously completely changed your stance.

Convince me I'm wrong. I'll let you know if my second impression feels better than my first, but those are my thoughts.

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VOTE: UNVOTE

Why would you put PB at L-1 without mentioning it??? In your post where you are afraid scum are lurking and are on fence about PB, on D1, it really is worth mentioning. (Someone please correct me if it wasn't L-1)

VOTE: Dannflor

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You're really quick to cry "scum" , which doesn't sit well with me but on a quick re-read I think your posts are consistent and I'm more or less confident you are not on the list of people I would want to lynch D1. But really, I think you're confusing your scum radar with people who have criticized you (That list is a one to one match in this game, with the exception of PB who has no defence from any criticism at all) (It includes Arceus really early, then myself and BBT, and Dan who has asked you a few questions).

On top of that, you're really quick to add associative tells to the mix, which are very likely meaningless at this point. I also think you just really like arguing semantics and thus your wonderful read on RC.

I feel like it should be self-evident that I am keeping close track of this game by my posts. I think it is everyone's responsibility to do so, and I think your argument that having an idea of the vote count is not pro-town is absurd. Your next sentence is basically WIFOM. I think anybody who lynches "accidentally" is immediately suspect, and ignorant VT just won't cut it. Dann is active, and as both RC and I have said, complained about lurkers while putting someone at L-1. - Was he hoping that some naive townie as you claim to be would finish off the job for him and take the fall for it, not realizing they were lynching because no one pointed it out?

You won't convince me, and shouldn't be able to convince anyone, that warning town we are in L-1 unintentionally is not pro-town. But moving past that is also WIFOM and won't help anybody.

You're grasping at straws. Pick it up a bit and I think this town will be in prime condition for some solid lynches going forward.

[Rune]

@ Arceus
@ Dialga
@ Havoc

What are your reads so far?

@ PB
I would be more willing to believe that you are

"generally regarded as scummy regardless of your actual alignment alignment"

if you were able to come across as scummy while contributing more than exclusively that fact. Until you do this, I think the pressure on you is justified as a possible D1 lynch candidate (behind Dan right now), despite Dan's seemingly terrible post to put you at L-1.



@Axe
@ TDA
@ Jake

Sorry you'll have so much to get through on Monday - I look forward to seeing it.

@Elyse
You don't seem to be too much more active in your other game right now, so I'm not overly worried, but if you would be able to replicate your post 164 and let us know what you think of the last few pages, that would be great.

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@Reverend

I don't want to dismiss you, and I'd be perfectly happy to engage you over any point you'd like to make, you haven't made any thus far though.

I said very likely meaningless, not meaningless. Don't twist my words.

Please point out exactly where RC has criticized you. From what I've seen, it hasn't been in this game?
If you mean RC is your townread, but Elyse criticized you, all Elyse did is say that your interaction with BBT made him look better and you worse. It was a small comment in a big wall that was never followed up. It's a pretty weak counterargument and one which you've messed up.

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@ Reverend

There are a lot of reads and style choices I disagree with - this doesn't make those people scum. Being able to hunt properly involves the ability to understand whether you disagree with something because it is scummy, or because it is coming from a different perspective.

If no one had somewhat of an "I don't like this but you're ok" kind of attitude, this game [mafia in general] would devolve into a series of OMGUS. It hasn't. People have some level of tolerance for different perspectives. Why even bother criticizing me for this.

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@Havoc

Why do you think that either myself or RC are scum? I'm more or less leaning to town on RC, pending what I expect to be a positive response from some of my questions last night. I'd like to see more of your thought process here.

I'm surprised by your town-read on Dan. His last few posts ended on a particularly scummy note which you agree requires explanation. I just think your list implies you're letting him off the hook, and expecting whatever explanation he gives to be satisfactory.

I actually liked that colours, it was easy to follow.

@ Prolapsed Brian

Seriously? While I don't think your vote is necessarily terrible, you owe it to the town (if you are town) to post something significantly better than a simple unvote / vote.

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@Dan

I unvoted PB as soon as you put him at L-1, so your unvote "in case someone gets a hammer itch" is odd and really reactionary (since it wouldn't be a hammer), when PB has done little to make your vote less worthwhile.

I had in parentheses that I understand there is more to your argument than 222. Not too important anyways.

While your post here has a town feeling about it, I think you were caught in a place where you didn't have much choice other than to own up to it as you have done. So I still think you have a ways to go before I think there is a better D1 lynch. (Obviously that is very dependent on all the lurkers / VLA I am waiting to hear from).

I still can't shake the feeling that your post felt like you were trying to buddy up to me. Did anyone else get that vibe? (227)

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@PB

I strongly believe we are at a point where your reasons would help town make better votes and eventually lead to a better D1 lynch. Yes we still need to hear from more people, but you're giving a lot of players little motivation to look elsewhere, and it would be easy for someone to park their vote on you without raising too much suspicion. Case and point - 3 of your votes are still from the RVS stage (Havoc, TDA, and Jake all voted for you in their first few posts) and no one has bothered to ask for justification of that, because you do, in fact, even admittedly, come across as scummy. I don't think that that is healthy for the town (or for you).

(Yes, I know havoc has recently posted and PB was still on his scum reads, but his reasoning was "duh", which is exactly my point. He has and needs no motivation to move it until you give him more.)

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@Arceus

- Regarding 71. 53-60 is full of [mostly] arbitrary associative tells, The entirety of my comment was not directed exclusively at BBT.

- Thank you for stopping that massive post by post stream before it got too hard to follow. I'd much rather see your cumulative thoughts on each player after a full read now that we are at this point of D1.

- I look forward to reading your opinions soon.

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@ Reverend

Honestly Reverend, you have more tools in your scumhunting toolbox than a single OMGUS FoS. Once again an entirely kneejerk scum reaction to someone who swings at you.
You argue that someone can disagree with your perspective, but that you are entirely justified in thinking it (you've said this several times). The reverse is equally true and you need to get off your high horse if you're going to be helpful to town. There are valid viewpoints from which you look scummy so far. Get over it.

You're like the boy who cried wolf, and at some point I won't be the only one to calling you out for it.

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@MOD: Has Dialga been prodded yet? It's far past the 2 day mark.

[Rune]

It is a kneejerk reaction, because, as I've already explained, with the singular exception of PB who is obviously scummy, you have scumread anybody who makes a post with moderately significant criticisms of you. You have done very little other than this.

You scumread Arceus in RVS shown in post 56 where you immediately suggest that Arceus and Toffee could be scum working against you.
In post 134, immediately after I post my thoughts on you vs BBT, suggesting you are looking scummier than him, you vote for me, and follow it up by explicitly saying you think I'm scum in post 140.
In post 232 you add Dan to the mix, and I note your interaction with him between posts 152 and 155, the fact that you didn't post much in between shows that the different in post numbers isn't significant, as well as a pretty obvious reason to easily throw more suspicion on him.

It is OMGUS if you create arbitrary reasons or hop onto existing arguments to scumread someone who criticizes you. As you have done repeatedly. Particularly if you are willing to throw away that suspicion when someone else comes along.

looks like I was wrong about toffeee

. Note that in 232 you suggest Toffee is scum and he hasn't posted since (with the exception of saying he will catch up). So why are you suddenly wrong about him?

I never once in my post specifically referred to our own interactions, and you are trying to manipulate my points to make it look like I am criticizing you for scumreading me. It's a bad read, but my criticism is only in the larger context of your scumreads matching perfectly with 1) obvious candidate PB and 2) players who are critical of you.

[Rune]

This is probably my favourite post of yours so far. It seems to be less confrontational and more an attempt to explain yourself and help me understand where you're coming from. To me, it seems sincere (as you put it).

since when is OMGUS a scumtell

To what post of mine are you referring? I don't think OMGUS is a scumtell in and of itself, and note that my vote is not for you, and that I haven't come out and scumread you on this page. You seem to be perceiving an all out attack that's really not the case at all. I just think you are using it as your primary scumhunting tool and haven't really backed it up with arguments afterwards. I think you could do a better job of moving the town forward, which is why I'm spending this time trying to encourage you to do that.

How am I slapping down your read of toffee when (for the second time)

Looks like I'm wrong about toffee

. If you want me to consider your read, please post a reason why you think he is scum. I've already made it clear that your earlier interactions with him, from my perspective (and from others' as well) don't show a scumtell from him. I refuse to believe that you are unable to accept this.

On that note, you completely avoided answering my question about why you were wrong about him when he obviously hasn't posted anything to change your mind, instead turning it around on me. Please tell me why you were wrong.

[Rune]

That's obviously not an answer.

You're free to see a scum tell anywhere you like. I'm free to disagree with you. I'm free to ask you questions to see if your reads hold up and if you see something that I missed. I haven't said anything to the contrary. You are the one making it seem like I am trying to force you to stop your interactions, when instead you just are taking my comments, applying a lot of handwaving, and then accusing me of getting in your way.

I didn't slap your read down. You let it go completely without any prompting. I'll quote it for a third time, and this is really ridiculous.

LOOKS LIKE I'M WRONG ABOUT TOFFEE (post 258)

Why are you wrong about him? Why is this such a difficult question to answer? Why do you keep poorly manipulating my posts instead of answering my questions?

[Rune]

You changed your stance on him after a post from Arceus, not from me. You're deflecting so hard here it's unbelievable.

You haven't explained anything, except by misdirecting the conversation, as I've repeatedly pointed out.

You initially used the term "slap my read down" in the context of a post from this page (your post 264, referencing my 263). Now you're saying instead you were referring to a point you made several pages ago, and all three of your posts are from the same part of the conversation. This was the initial reason for your scumread on me, and I think you're being really misleading in this conversation in multiple ways.

I'm not going to be asking you again, you've given me enough information for now. Feel free to answer my questions at any time though, it would be helpful.

After 270, I have a scumread on you.
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I really dislike the timing of Dan's replacement request, and while I don't want to use it as further reason to suspect him, it certainly does nothing to dissuade me from believing him to be a good D1 lynch based on the information available so far. I wouldn't be willing to commit to it until everyone else has started contributing.

-------------

I'm very interested in seeing what Elyse has to say later today about this.
And I can't wait until tomorrow when multiple people have said they will get involved in the conversation. The risk of TVT right now is unfortunately high.

[Rune]

*all three of your quoted posts (so, my posts)

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Palkia replaces Dannflor. Welcome!

Will Giratina replace in next? This is comical.

[Rune]

@Palkia,

Please explain your vote.

I'm not going to be replacing out.

@Rev

No worries, enjoy time with your family and we can push this till later. I'm interested in seeing what you think once you're fully engaged! There was a reason I was hesitant to scumread you, so I'm pretty hopeful this will have a positive outcome.

To explain with Palkia, essentially Arceus, Dialga, Palkia, and Giratina are all from the same set of legendary pokemon.

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@Palkia,

I'm not too bothered by it, I think anything you post will serve as a distraction to the scumminess of the person you replaced. Several players have indicated they will be significantly more active starting tomorrow, and unless one of them makes a scum slip or gives a strong argument otherwise, I believe Dan/you are the best choice for a D1 lynch.

I really think Dan's posting speaks for itself.

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@Palkia,

Simultaneously, if you are able to convince me otherwise, that would be great.

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@Arceus

Your point about my 71 - did you read posts 58,61, and 66? Your argument is factually incorrect.

How was my vote for Dan joining the main wagon?

Based on your post, I don't believe you've actually read the second half of this game.

[Rune]

@Arceus

Your point about 71 was the Rev had not used associatives. All three of the posts I referenced were Rev discussing who could be in a team with who. This is obvious. Why are you wasting my time making me repeat it?

I have only made 4 votes so far.
1) Axehole - RVS, are you going to judge that too?
2) BBT (I was the third vote) - I am happy with this vote at the time, for reasons I've explained already. I don't think wagon hopping for the sake of wagon hopping is an appropriate use of the advantage of early RVS wagons.
3) Brain - his playstyle has been consistently weak and scummy. This was a solid vote.
4) Dan - a solid vote and not a wagon.

You stopped quoting posts at 133. A lot has happened since then. Read the whole thread and make a more informed analysis please.

[Rune]

1) I already gave you the post numbers. Quit being argumentative.
3) In my vote I clearly stated that I didn't like his hopping, and that there was now a wagon on him. This is what I said, it's not a contradiction.
4) I don't even know who you're talking about in this point. If you mean PB, please show me where I have townread him. Your logic is so obviously off here, I am incapable of understanding where you are coming from unless you are trying to troll.
5) I was the second vote for Dan, and my reasons were very clear, very solid, and very different from RC's original vote of him.

What are your reads on everybody else? If you're going to give evidence, I'd like to see how your opinions have developed after post 133.

P-edit: Your last few posts made no sense.

[Rune]

To repeat, you still haven't quoted anything in the latter half of the game so far.

[Rune]

I've repeatedly said my vote on BBT was not a strong scumread, and this has been consistent. You even bolded it, and then continue as if I said something completely different. My recent posts and the posts you quoted are consistent on that.

Every single argument I've made about my vote on BBT has been consistent with this.

I don't think you're paying attention to my posts, and I don't think you're doing anything more than trolling.

[Rune]

My vote on BBT was on post 29 and was my second post of the game. It was still in the middle/end of the RVS stage of the game and you are way too hung up about this considering the fact that I have explained it so many times.

I want reads that are clearly based on having taken the entirety of the game in context, not a bunch of half-baked arguments based exclusively on the first half of the game which have already been brought up by other players.

To be clear, I am not suggesting that information in the first half of the game is useless. I am only pointing out that these arguments are not original and seem cherry-picked, while simultaneously you seem to have no intention of discussing them logically.

P-edit: what arguments? You've quoted my walls of text and made contradictory statements about parts you highlighted. You've ignored evidence I have presented. Give me a single post with a detailed argument and I'll respond to it.

[Rune]

To be honest, I am very confused right now. Your current posts are extremely scummy. Your read is incorrect. But as scum it would have been more advantageous for you to simply lay low and out of my way hunting others.

If I had to guess right now, I think you are weak scum protecting himself with WIFOM hoping to hop onto previous players' suspicions of me and looking to score a lynch. I suspect this is because at least one of my stronger reads is correct and you think you can get the town off that scent if I am out of the way. You are confident you won't be a lynch target for D1, and you know that by straight up attacking me you won't leave associative tells for others to follow when I flip town. It won't work.

[Rune]

I'd also point out that you have lain low this entire time but the arguments you are making against me now could have been made days ago. Why haven't you made them earlier?

[Rune]

My reads right now. (most to least scummy) (spaces indicate larger gaps between groups of players)

Likely Scum

1. Dan/Palkia (I think this is the best D1 lynch as of this moment, and Palkia is not helping at all)

2. Arceus (I have no idea what you are doing right now, and might adjust your position on this list downwards depending on the level of logic you display in your next few posts)
3. PB (several really bad posts, is the most anti-town player so far and doesn't seem to care)

4. Havoc (4 posts, poor-ish reads, and not a great defence of them - lurking as he is more active in another game now)
5. TDA (has promised to post soon, but has made some really general statements without backing it up so far)

Neutral and/or not enough info (mostly the latter)

6. Dialga (no info)
7. Axe (waiting for monday)
8. Jake (little info, waiting for monday (congrats on the half marathon today) (sorry to make you shake your head at me too))

Townish

9. Reverend
10. Elyze (only 5 posts, but promised to post today, otherwise will move torwards neutral)
11. BBT
12. RC (will be sober monday, but of the other 11 on above has been doing the most scumhunting)

13. Rune


It's really unfortunate that we are waiting on so many people to become active, I expect my reads could change a lot in the next few days as more people post. Just because I have someone at the bottom of my list, doesn't mean I am excluding the possibility that they are scum. However, I am pretty confident that the people on my list from 9 and below are unlikely to be a good choice for a D1 lynch. D2 and after, only time will tell.

[Rune]

Both Elyse and Dan thought I was scum and I did not attack them. I voted for dan at a later point for obviously different reasons. Several times recently I indicated I thought you could be town, and just didn't like your play. I called scum when you made an obvious mistake. I'm willing to believe it was a mistake for now unless you slip later. Your judgement is delayed, not called off. You also said you would post about it later, which I still expect

I am shocked you town read arceus. It's an obvious load of bs.

[Rune]

@Elyse

I don't see why I shouldn't use overall site activity relative to in-game activity as a mild indicator of lurking, but I'll keep it in mind and let you know I'm not putting too much weight into it in my reads. I just think it's relevant to point out.

My read on you would change to neutral if you hadn't posted today because you have exactly 6 posts to this point, none of which have given me a scumread (in fact, the opposite). But if I can't trust you to post when you say you will post when you have almost no posts to begin with, I refuse to reward you with a townread. Obviously if you came back tomorrow and gave a reasonable excuse for not posting when you said you would and I believed you, that would be ok too.

Upon reflection I'm not sure I explained how my reads were meant to be read well enough. I labeled the last section as "townish" not "town" and specified at the end that I really am looking at D1 lynch candidates. I mentioned several times beforehand my reluctance to scumread Rev, but if he was going to blatantly manipulate my words like that, it seemed like an easy tell. However, I think it is perfectly plausible that he just made a mistake, since he owned up to it really quickly as you mentioned. Since in general his playstyle here is wildly aggressive and without great logic (as evidenced by his admitting that he has blinders for arceus despite the obvious ridiculousness of his posts against me), I think it isn't too hard to imagine this is a mistake he could have realistically made. That being said, it is also possible he is hiding as scum behind poor town play, but I don't think he is a good D1 lynch candidate at all, so I'd rather put him borderline town.

You'll also notice that my neutral reads are really people who I don't have a read on (I did specify it was largely a category for people who I had little or no information on). It might have been appropriate to put them in a separate section instead of in the middle between scum and town (I did that to keep convention, but I expected the meaning to be clear based on the people in it)

I really like my top 3 scumreads though right now, and I like the order that they are in. Generally I don't like to commit to associative reads D1 but Arceus jumping in so soon after Dan scumslips and replaces out really seems to me to be his way of trying to bring the attention off of Dan/Palkia, by attacking me without having to defend Dan and thus he thinks he will avoid showing his association. Otherwise, it would have been optimal for Arceus to simply lie low, which would have been easy. I think Palkia's annoying play right now gives absolutely no reason to consider any other lynch candidate without strong evidence. You probably stand a decent chance of convincing me that Arceus is a good lynch, and I'll definitely consider it, but I'm hoping that his posts improve quickly or at least make more contextual sense.

@Rev

Can you see why this could hurt the town? Just because someone agrees with your points, doesn't make them town. Just because they disagree, doesn't make them scum. Arceus' argument is poor, regardless of my alignment. Admitting the possibility of having blinkers on makes me sad, because it is an easy way for you to avoid being read. It is definitely not pro-town to have 'blinkers'.

You're right that our exchange does not make me town. Your 'derp' should reflect poorly on the town's perception of you, not positively on its perception of me. So I think you missed the point there.

[Rune]

@RC

Your vote was already on Havoc and he hasn't posted since you voted for him in post 254, but I guess you feel really really strongly about it [or did you meant to vote for someone else?]

Why do you townread PB?

[Rune]

@RC,

Seriously, why do you townread PB?

[Rune]

@MOD: Would it be unreasonable to request that vote counts (or at least links to them) are edited into one of your intro posts? (preferably #0 or #3)

[Rune]

If you're scumreading me for obviously terrible reasons and misrepresentation of facts, I am unhappy with you. Otherwise I wish your play was better but lean town. I've repeated this many times.

[Rune]

I should have thought of that.

[Rune]

Rc I have a few comments but I will probably vote to apply pressure. Only after work though as I want to add my comments.

[Rune]

@Rev - Palkia also voted havoc but yeah, it's a hard sell to me too.

@RC

I actually think Havoc's latest post brings up some valid points. I will not vote for him to add pressure unless:

1) clear questions are asked of him that he does not answer, and which I think are important for him to answer.
2) he stops posting and goes back to lurking.
3) my other priorities continue to be ignored by the rest of the town.

----------

@RC I think you would be better off building a case for your townread of PB. You're Free to do otherwise, but any knowledge you share will help me (and others) develop their reads.
I'd also like to have a better reason to hop onto a havoc bandwagon. I think pressure on Arceus would be far more effective, and I still think people are letting Dan/Palkia off the hook way too easily.

------

@Axe

What about PB do you find town?
What do you think of my arguments against Dan/Palkia?
Why do you townread arceus without reading his posts? They are pretty awful.

What about havoc? Why would he be one of your only two scum reads and you don't post your case on him? Why didn't you add your vote, considering your scum read and RC's push for a wagon?

---------

While I strongly believe Dan/Palkia is the best D1 lynch, for the sake of getting more info to the town on possible scum,

VOTE: UNVOTE
VOTE: Vote: Arceus

@Arceus - start by responding to Elyse, and we'll go from there.

@Elyse, what do you think of applying pressure to Arceus vs Havoc?

[Rune]

@RC what are your other reads right now?

[Rune]

@RC

Feel free to make suggestions, my inexperience in forum mafia (the Normal game in particular) and the impact that has on what I feel is appropriate to comment / how I post is obviously a sore point for multiple people. But if it requires extra work and/or formatting, or that I deviate from writing as I think with minimal editing afterwards, you'll probably be out of luck and I don't really care.

There are a lot of people in this game who I think post terribly (including hardly at all) and are doing the town a huge disservice by doing so. If I was able to lynch them all, the town would be very small indeed, so I don't want to do that and will live with it. That's where empathy and playing to one's wincon comes in.

So, yeah, if you continue to avoid answering my questions, which in this case were meant to determine my support for your wagon, I'm just going to continue operating independently from you for now. Unfortunately I know this is not a viable long-term scumhunting strategy, and I wish you were more willing to work together here.

@Elyse,

I'm not confident that Havoc is a good D1 lynch. I don't think that he has any motivation to respond to pressure, and I don't fully get the case for this bandwagon against him, even though I do find him somewhat scummy. I don't have any pressing questions for him at the moment either. Since he now seems to posting somewhat more regularly (hopefully the trend continues), I'm fine with letting him dig his own grave or climb out of it on his own.

[Rune]

To elaborate, I think there would be motivation to respond to pressure if someone asked him some questions that needed answering.

[Rune]

Hi hostile, nice to have you here. Fortunately your predecessor had exactly one RVS post so you are starting on a clean slate.

There is a lot to get through but when you have time to catch up a bit it'd be great to get your perspective on things.

[Rune]

@Havoc - I think that 376 is possibly your scummiest post yet. Did you notice that I already pointed out that I wanted people to ask you questions before getting on your wagon? Why does it have to be "someone else, for instance Axe" who needs clarification, why aren't the votes of Elyse and RC sufficient for you to realize you should do something? Note that other people, Axe included, have listed you as a scumread.

I'm on board with Elyse, why not update your reads and explain them in greater detail?

[Rune]

I really hate the idea of replacements in general, because I have to reconcile my opinion of the first player to that of the newer one, and this could easily mess up a read.

Obviously the ideal situation is one where there are no replacements, so the use of the word fortunately was conditional on the knowledge that there had been a replacement, and who it had been. If there is going to be a replacement, I'd vastly prefer it be for someone who is useless, because there is a high probability that the game will improve if the replacement is a better player (impossible not to play better than Dialga has, so the game will be improved by this replacement) and I don't need to worry about the replacement covering up for scumslips by the person they replaced.

On the other hand, Dan replacing out has been horrible for the game, since Palkia has come in and played terribly. It is especially bad since I had a scumread on Dan and now I can't follow up with him, instead we are stuck with Palkia, which is bad for obvious reasons.

As far as replacements go, this one has the opportunity to be almost ideal.

[Rune]

Before you jump on my last sentence, by "almost ideal", I mean "almost ideal, as a solution to a bad situation to begin with."

[Rune]

UNVOTE: Arceus
VOTE: HaVoC

Why?

[Rune]

At this point I think we are either up against weak scum or have some dysfunctional town elements. This thought makes me want to do a re-read as it is not comforting to me.

That being said,

@Havoc 388

This was not a good post.

1) Why do you no longer believe that "one of Rune/RC is scum"?

2) You now think I am scum piggybacking off of Reverend and Arceus' points. Can you make your own case against me?

3) You reference Arceus' 'argument' against me, which has already been discussed and in my opinion is good for nothing better than an easy scum read and lining a digital recycling bin. It is obvious that Arceus has read only half the game, noting that all three of the posts you quoted were actually quotes of me in the first few pages. Not only that, but the points Arceus makes are extremely weak, and I already responded to them in full. Again, what is your own case against me, and how does it differ from these weak points which I've addressed?

4) Given your town read on Elyse, what do you think of her opinion on Arceus, particularly her agreement with me that the argument by Arceus against me was really poor.

5) The second half of your Elyse townread doesn't make sense to me. It seems like filler.

6) I think your towncase for BBT is really odd. It really just looks like you are trying to use it to further an argument against me, yet another one which does not hold up. How can you mention that a player seems to think they have found the entire scumteam without mentioning Reverend, who has been making pretty strong associative scumreads since the first couple pages of the game? I think it is pretty obvious that RC has already responded to that question with her vote. Additionally, RC has recently made comments about me which should have helped you see that that question isn't really applicable right now.

7) We had pretty similar thoughts on Axe's post. It rubs me the wrong way that you don't seem to be producing any original content or analysis in your reads.

8) Your scumcase against PB has gone from "duh" to "I haven't changed my mind". Can you describe your original case in more detail?

9) Your reads have barely changed at all since 241 (you've added a not-as-towny category where you've added Axehole and Arceus, and conveniently backed off your weak Rune/RC argument as scum by putting RC here). Do you really think that no noteworthy posts have been made since then which are alignment indicative in a direction opposite to your reads?

VOTE: UNVOTE
VOTE: Vote: Havoc

[Rune]

Sorry about atrocious use of voting tags.

@Mod: Even though it's obvious, I'd like to be clear that that was a vote for Havoc

[Rune]

@Rev & Axe

At this point, I think I agree.

However, I am strongly against a lynch until TDA, Jake, and Hostile make meaningful contributions.

If possible, I'd like for Palkia to add something to the table, and I would prefer it if Havoc responds to my questions as well.

[Rune]

@Axe

You still don't get to dodge out of why you had your initial havoc scumread.

[Rune]

Jake...my vote was on Pb in that post and I unvoted, then voted dan, bringing pb off L-1. This is obvious.

[Rune]

I think that an average post length of one sentence makes someone more annoying to read and let's them hide easier if it is ignored. It helps town less overall in my opinion. I don't think in a specific game it means someone is more or less likely town though in general.

[Rune]

This is so terrible, I don't even know where to begin.

@Hostile, how the hell can you justify:

UNVOTE: HaVoC
VOTE: Prolapsed Brain

Like, there's naked pressure votes, then there's naked L-1 votes, and I have no words for how terrible that vote is. Basically everything Oversheep said. I obviously need to read the thread but I'm busy and I super don't want to, so this'll do for the meantime.

WHILE PUTTING PB IN L-1. You're so hypocritical and brazenly scummy, and I'm mad because you've really messed up my reads by doing this. Somehow, I think you are town, but I'm going to be keeping a really close eye on you.




Oversoul and Palkia are almost certainly scum buddies, as has been my read for quite a while now.

[Rune]

@Oversoul and Palkia / Dan & Arceus

You're such obvious scumbuddies I'm ripping my hair out trying to figure out if you'd really be so bold in doing it.

[Rune]

Before this thread is locked and I get NK, I want to direct everyone's attention to: Havoc's 376 and Axe's 353, where he still hasn't provided evidence for his read on Havoc.

I have a suspicion that Havoc and Axe could be scumbuddies, and Axe was trying to bus Havoc, but in 376 Havoc was discreetly asking for Axe's advice.

[Rune]

VOTE: Prolapsed Brain

Wagon.

Good luck with that. I'm an Unlynchable NK-Immune Miller Vig. Bulletproof.

As non-consecutive non-odd non-even non-night non-day cop, I can confirm that PB is town and we should all get to lynching Havoc.

I probably shouldn't post this but I really dgaf right now, I think there is a huge chance that RC and PB have the same alignment and know about each other, and their openness about it makes me think Mason. If PB flips Mason then RC is basically a regular townie from this point forward so wtv.

[Rune]

Finally, has anyone else noticed that:

Dialga is the only one of the three pokemon with previous game experience? Arceus was created just for this game (has only posted in the queue and this topic).

Palkia was created only after Dan requested replacement, and has only posted in this topic.

I think it is somewhat plausible that Dialga invited a friend to play (Arceus) and when Dan (Arceus' scumbuddy) requested replacement, Arceus asked another friend to join as Palkia.

[Rune]

If PB was Mason with RC then RC would be confirmed town

I said that.

[Rune]

Continuing with the post-rage:

Elyse winning as SK is somewhat of a possibility.

[Rune]

NICE TRY YOU ARE ONLY MAKING ME HARDER

Palkia
Arceus
BlueBloodedToffee
RadiantCowbells
Rune
NotAnAxehole

TheDudeAbides
HaVoC
Jake from State Farm
Prolapsed Brain
TheReverend

Hostile Intent
Elyse

How did I just jump a bunch of ranks between the last page and this one?

[Rune]

@BBT @Rev

I think you're both probably town, should stop fighting, and you should look at the following pairs tmrw:

Havoc+Axe
Dan+Arceus = Palkia+Overlord
Havoc + Palkia
(PB) + RC + (maybe) Elyse

[Rune]

For what its worth, I wasn't aware my vote was L-1.

Do with that what you will.

I unfortunately believe you, but it doesn't make me less aware of the irony.

[Rune]

Just because oversoul is obviously playing much stronger than arceus does not make him town, especially considering Arceus' scumminess.

[Rune]

VOTE: Nikanor
-Wagon

But actually:
VOTE: Oversoul

@Rev, if you disagree with my choice from your earlier lineup, tell me who, and why, and I'll probably go that way. This game is a shitshow and either scum or town is really terrible. Either way, it's pretty obvious which two or three people need to be gone. Between the four you mentioned, I think either Havoc or Hostile could be town.

@TDA, post please.

[Rune]

Jake and Reverend, can you state what you didn't like about the hammer and why it makes Palkia scum?

He replaced into a slot that was very scummy. Maybe he's decided that he's got no chance of survival and is just going to troll the shit out of the game. I have no idea. Basically it's a policy lynch, and I wouldn't be remotely surprised if he flipped scum. If he's town, he still needs to go. I was really hoping he'd be vig'd.

That hammer was not only scummy as shit, it was unacceptable imo.

This. That first paragraph has been my opinion for a while.

UNVOTE: Oversoul
VOTE: Palkia

I don't see how the hammer was scummy. Did I like it? No. Was the person being hammered a good lynch? Yes.

Can you point out some posts from Palkia you dislike and why you dislike them?

PB was a terrible lynch. See my post 508, and see the massive wagon that insta-formed on him at the end. PB's play was scummy, but RC would be playing horribly if town and protecting PB like this, and the case on Havoc was better anyways. Havoc's lynch was approached in a pro-town manner, with multiple posts of intent, and waiting for a claim. PB's was 3 or 4 votes all of which happened really quickly, and none of which showed any patience. If any of those players are town, they deserve to be lynched anyways and I don't feel bad about it.

[Rune]

Damn. Let's try something new.

VOTE: Hostile Intent

Palkia, when will we find out how you're confirmed town?

Rune, why do you think I am scum?

@Oversoul

Read everything I said about Arceus and Dan / Arceus and Palkia. Your support of Palkia in spite of the atrocious hammer doesn't help.
I'm also going to straight out say that I am extremely biased against you based on my earlier reads of Arceus. Nothing you post is going to change that - only other people acting scummier will change my perspective on you. Dismissing Arceus' play would be silly, and forgetting about it because you seem to be a better player would also be silly.

[Rune]

@Axe,

Quit trolling, or explain the Jake read. You still haven't posted your Havoc read.

[Rune]

The first four votes on PB were all from the first four pages of the game (Havoc, TDA, Jake, BBT). Be more careful with parking your votes please.

Final 3 votes on PB:

1) Oversoul, post 448, 3:09 PM
2) Hostile, post 451, 3:22 PM (no declaration of L-1 despite insanely hypocritical post)
3) Palkia, post 471, 7:03 PM

So we had 3 votes in less than 4 hours when the town was obviously pretty close to a lynch anyways. The wagon on the lynch was essentially 4 parked RVS votes and 3 quick votes with no decent explanations (except Oversoul).

@BBT, in your post 470, why the hell didn't you unvote immediately?

@othertownmembers: We have had 3 blind L-1 votes so far, you're not giving scum any reason to even try to be deceptive if this behaviour perpetuates and is allowed to go unpunished.

[Rune]

@BBT

I think you are town but you are losing points pretty quickly so far today.

[Rune]

@Axe,

Quit trolling, or explain the Jake read. You still haven't posted your Havoc read.

Havoc is scum.

Obviously

[Rune]

Reasoning for your initial read on him is still important.

[Rune]

Posting my thoughts in a bit

Spoiler alert:

VOTE: NotAnAxehole

Not the right direction for D2. I strongly believe Axe is town.

[Rune]

@Rune
Why do you think Axe is town?

See my 507 for my earlier suspicion of Havoc and Axe. In any other game, I would consider this somewhat of a possibility.

That being said, Axe is a much better player in general than he is putting on here. An early bus on Havoc wouldn't surprise me at all. He reverts to trolling and meaningless comments when bored, and I can't blame him in the context of this game. This is really idgaf!Axe, and while that's not alignment indicative, I strongly lean town in the context of this game. If the set of Palkia, Oversoul, Hostile, and Havoc doesn't contain at least two members of a scumteam, I will be surprised.

I don't think Axe would be scum with anyone other than Havoc (in a scenario where town could win at this point), and so I would lynch Havoc before thinking about lynching Axe.

There are enough people who deserve to be lynched at this point that I don't think adding Axe into that pile is going to help town.

pedit: Jake I'll get to you in my next post.

[Rune]

IMO Havoc, Oversoul, and Palkia should be lynched in that order (preference for D2, not a suggestion for the upcoming days). My initial vote D2 is for Oversoul because I think his play from this point on will make it less likely for people to vote his direction, whereas Havoc is going to be part of the scum discussion for a while, and won't be forgotten.

In other news, BBT continues to look scummy.

VOTE: Havoc

Elyse & others: Let's get the pressure on here.

[Rune]

@Rune
I am fine with lynching Havoc first. I am convinced Axe and Havoc are a team so it doesn't matter either way to me.

How to explain the counterwagon to Havoc in that case?

[Rune]

IMO Havoc, Oversoul, and Palkia

Why palkia 3rd?

If palkia townflips I still think oversoul could be scum. If oversoul townflips I'm much less confident about palkia.

[Rune]

@Rune
I am fine with lynching Havoc first. I am convinced Axe and Havoc are a team so it doesn't matter either way to me.

How to explain the counterwagon to Havoc in that case?

Hm?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Havoc

If axe and havoc are a team, how did the counterwagon form so efficiently and quickly? It would require hostile and Palkia to both be really bad town, which seems moderately unlikely.

[Rune]

I also want to point out - Rune claims that PB was playing scummy on Day 1. While I thought PB looked town, I am now seeing I may have been the only one seeing this - If that is the case, it's likely that the scum were not on the PB wagon, that was probably a town driven wagon (given everyone except me agrees he looked scummy).

4 RVs and 3 quickvotes including no intent or chance to claim on L1 and hammer. It's either suicide town or dumb scum.

Also, I am not trying to lynch you today, at no point did I think a d2 lynch of you is a good idea.

[Rune]

@Oversoul,

I feel like we're just not on the same page, you're drawing meaning from my posts which are. for the most part, not at all what was suggested.

@All who are now against HI

I've already asked for why you might think scum, and I'm not getting any good responses. Telling me to vote HI (looking at you oversoul) like that just makes it look like you're deflecting.

@All

Who thinks Havoc is anything other than scum? Why?

[Rune]

What scum hunting is HI doing (Rune)?

What scum hunting is Palkia doing?
What scum hunting is TDA doing?

Lift your game bro.

[Rune]

@Oversoul all you've done today is:

1) misquote me
2) defend Palkia really strongly for no good reason
3) push HI for no good reason either
4) wrote one or two random sentences which don't move the game forward.

[Rune]

Oversoul, your vote started the quick votes. It is included for that reason
I also acknowledged that of the three you were the only one of the three who attempted to post an explanation. I'm giving you credit where it is due. I don't dislike you for having a different playstyle, I just think you're scum.

@Rev why oversoul over havoc? I don't necessarily disagree, as indicated by my first d2 vote, but I'd like to know your reasons. Otherwise, get on havocs well deserved wagon plz.

[Rune]

Rune, why do you think Hostile is town?

Because I think other people are more likely to be scum. Which is why I've asked for a case/opinion against HI, which no one seems to be able or willing to provide. Odd. That being said, I'm not discounting the possibility of HI scum. But there is no reason to lynch anyone today who we are not sure is scum, and HI does not fit that criteria. Havoc fits it much better. In my opinion, you do as well.

@TDA post...........

@Havoc post.........

[Rune]

@Axe

What is your read on Havoc now?

[Rune]

I actually think it is more likely than not that HI is town. I find it very odd that Oversoul went for him right out of the gate, without any solid case, and has continued to push in that direction shamelessly, responding to my request for a case with "What scumhunting is HI doing" and "Why do you think HI is town".

That's so obviously weak.

@Axe

You're going to need to explain that vote as well as your real quick turnaround on the Elyse/me scumbuddy theory. You seem to be flip-flopping a lot right now.

[Rune]

@Jake,

I don't really care about Palkia at the moment, and have no expectation that palkia could possibly contribute more to the game except waste my time. I think Palkia's alignment will be determined by other lynches, and that's about all I have to say there. If Oversoul is town, I think it is highly unlikely that Palkia is scum.

I'd like to see either a Havoc or Oversoul lynch today. I think Havoc is the safer choice for town, but I think Oversoul is the smarter choice.

That being said, if Palkia got to L-1, I wouldn't necessarily be against hammering.

[Rune]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Oversoul

@Elyse
@Jake

I am confident this is the best lynch for town today. I am leaning town to both HI and Palkia right now.

[Rune]

I'm Policy Lynching Rune.

VOTE: Rune

I don't feel as lynched as you seem to think I am after that post.

[Rune]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Oversoul

@Elyse
@Jake

I am confident this is the best lynch for town today. I am leaning town to both HI and Palkia right now.

Why Oversoul over Havoc? I am leaning town on HI as well.

Re-read D2 at least. I sense some night-chat plan where scum will 'slowly' pressure HI while maintaining strong townreads on Palkia. I think Oversoul has done nothing but push a very specific agenda today, and I still think Arceus was very scummy. Both Axe and BBT are complicit in this and at least one of them is town being strung along.

Havoc is probably a safer lynch, but I think town will gain the most from lynching Oversoul.

[Rune]

VOTE: Oversoul

I'm calling your bluff.

[Rune]

BBT Stop wasting town's time.

[Rune]

Read properly then come back and contribute. A Rev vote isn't going to distract anybody from the fairly easy choices we have before us. It just makes you look silly.

[Rune]

Busy enough to keep you from helping town, but not busy enough to keep you from wasting time and detracting from the conversation?

Come back when you are ready.

@Elyse,

I could be convinced either way, but I really think an Oversoul lynch tells us more about the game. I would also lynch Havoc in a heartbeat.
Rev, you, and Jake are my strongest townreads right now, and I think we should collectively decide where to vote.

Havoc and Oversoul would be the two I am ok with lynching immediately. Palkia is a useless lynch. HI would be a poor lynch for town despite the useless play. Axehole and BBT are not on the D2 radar for me. If TDA is scum lurking, good for him because town would be playing so terribly we deserve to lose.

[Rune]

Do I get to keep two votes for the rest of the game?

You saw nothing. ~Nik

[Rune]

Rev, you, and Jake are my strongest townreads right now, and I think we should collectively decide where to vote.

You know my opinion

I think Palkia is a bad lynch for today for reasons I've already explained. I strongly suggest you reconsider, or at least provide your other scumreads as well as a justification for why we should lynch Palkia over the other obvious candidates.

[Rune]

I'm officially townreading TDA. Town can't possibly be this terrible on it's own.

[Rune]

I think toffee actually thinks I'm scum. Which suggests he isn't.

I'm actually three quarters convinced you're wrong.

[Rune]

@BBT,

Give me a straight list of questions. Half of the comments you made are obviously dumb.

If the hammer was so bad, and you disagreed with it so much, and you were scum reading Palkia so hard, why did your vote not go there?

1) I did have a vote on Palkia towards the beginning of D2
2) I have since explained multiple times why I now think Palkia is a terrible choice for lynching and possibly town.
3) I have never stated "that hammer was terrible" as you indicated I have.

I could go on, but as I've said... give me a list of questions which can't be easily answered by 1) Reading the damn game 2) Reading the damn game without blatantly misinterpreting it.

[Rune]

You obviously didn't read my first two posts of D2.

I'm done forgiving you for not reading the game.

Re: 505: I think other people are scum. There can only be so many scum in the game.

[Rune]

513, obviously an attempt at humor which went way over your head.

I'm not blindly sheeping rev. I have a good idea who is town and who I am willing to lynch today. There are a few viable options and I'm willing to vote in the direction that my townreads agree on. I've refined my list since the beginning of D2. This is obvious.

Town are really terrible because there is too much obvious idiocy coming from too many players to be purely from scum. Simultanesouly, there is so much idiocy in this game that some of it has to come from scum.

[Rune]

Because I think it is pretty obvious that Oversoul was either sending a message to scumbuddies to hammer or hoping to add to the PB bandwagon to detract from the Havoc wagon.

[Rune]

vote rune

lol

[Rune]

I know because I'm reading this game. In any mafia game the majority of people are town. Given the amount of people who are behaving completely irrationally, it stands to reason that at least some are town. I don't know anybody's alignment for sure except my own, but I can easily make educated guesses, and doing this doesn't make me scum.

For example:
Palkia is being annoying as fuck and is stupid, either as scum or town.
Hostile is contributing nothing and is a waste of space.
Axe has thrown out a bunch of dumb reads and hasn't contributed significantly even though I know he is capable of doing so.
BBT is making really dumb arguments without reading the game
We have a bunch of lurkers which is just dumb in any context.

*sigh*

[Rune]

I like his answers.

I'm beginning to think he's just a frustrated townie who doesn't really know what he is doing.

My read D1 on him was pretty strong as well.

Yes, I'm an extremely frustrated townie.

However, I do know what I'm doing.

[Rune]

Rev, you, and Jake are my strongest townreads right now, and I think we should collectively decide where to vote.

You know my opinion

I think Palkia is a bad lynch for today for reasons I've already explained. I strongly suggest you reconsider, or at least provide your other scumreads as well as a justification for why we should lynch Palkia over the other obvious candidates.

I'll vote havoc and maybe Axe

I also think Axe is a bad vote for today. I'm ok with Havoc though.

[Rune]

I don't.

Well, in that sense, sure, neither do I.

But I am quite confident in my reads and what direction I think town needs to take to get the info necessary to win.

[Rune]

BBT:

1) Why is your first D2 post so similar to Overlordsheepsoul's?
2) Why did you vote HI with no explanation at the beginning of D2.
3) Why did you change your vote to Jake with no explanation, after Axe asserted Jake was scum?
4) Why did you vote for Rev with no explanation, while he is pretty obviously town?
5) Why did you do all of this when you just admittedly (and obviously showed through your weak posts) hadn't bothered to catch up?
6) What is your read on Havoc? Why?

Straightforward questions. They shouldn't be hard to answer.

[Rune]

VOTE: Havoc

I probably won't be changing this until Oversoulsheeplordwhatever posts again and manages to convince me of his scumminess, largely because BBT's play bothers me and I think Havoc is pretty likely to flip scum.

[Rune]

I'm still on the Oversoul wagon. I have, several times, stated that I prefer to lynch Oversoul but that Havoc is a safer lynch for town. I now think it prudent to take that route.

[Rune]

@Elyse

1) Half serious
2) Because both Havoc's posts and his interactions with other players have been very scummy.

[Rune]

Umm, I answered 3, 4 and 5 before you even asked them.

I'll answer 6 when I've caught up.

First question, I guess it's because we're both town? Seems a dumb question.

As for 2, I thought HI was likely to be scum.

Instead of lying, and for the simpleminded, why don't you actually take 2 seconds to answer them fully. I'll wait until you've caught up.

[Rune]

but in all seriousness,

Elyse is town,
Rune is town,
BBT is town,
Rev is town,
Jake is town,
Oversoul is town,
Palkia is town.

HaVoC is scum,
TDA is scum,
HI is scum.

So far today, you've stated the Elyse and I are a scumteam, that Jake is scum, that you would only lynch Oversoul or be a hammer, and probably a few other things I don't remember off the top of my head.

Just saying.

[Rune]

@Everyone

Either give a reason not to vote Havoc, or vote and lynch Havoc.

[/ventingfrustration]

[Rune]

This is exciting

I'm not surprised you think so.

[Rune]

VOTE: Havoc

I probably won't be changing this until Oversoulsheeplordwhatever posts again and manages to convince me of his scumminess, largely because BBT's play bothers me and I think Havoc is pretty likely to flip scum.

VOTE: Havoc

I probably won't be changing this until Oversoulsheeplordwhatever posts again and manages to convince me of his scumminess, largely because BBT's play bothers me and I think Havoc is pretty likely to flip scum.

This is exciting

Took you 3 words.

Havoc is still the best lynch, but I am praying that one of the not-italian good guys sticks a fork in you N2.

[Rune]

That post deserves me going back and answering your questions more thoroughly, particularly where you have misquoted me - I'll do that soon.

I think it is odd that you quote my 648 and then multiple times in the same post ask what happens if you flip town. If you're town, I think it is very unlikely that Palkia is scum, because then your ridiculous defence of him would be outrageously detrimental to town, and Arceus started attacking me after I was pushing Dan, so I have some lingering associative reads there. I could build a better case than that by going through posts but I hope that this is sufficient to give you an idea as to what I'm thinking.

Additionally, if you flip town, I would then look at HI more seriously and also be extremely suspicious of Axe.

I mostly have a townread on Jake because, while he obviously isn't putting in huge efforts or going to great lengths to out scum, I think his reads are genuine and he isn't worth looking at when there are scummier options on the table, which inherently justify that attitude from him if town.

I'm ok with just lynching Havoc, no one has defended him and I'm pretty convinced scum are happy to bus him at this point.

[Rune]

Also, realize that I like to throw things out there to see what catches on, what gets ignored, and by whom - this should explain part of the paranoia you sense in my posts. Also, some is just paranoia. Which, no, doesn't extend outside of mafia. Within mafia, I think it's perfect reasonable. Especially when you're playing with a bunch of axeholes.

[Rune]

Also, the fact that we have no expectations from Havoc to come to his own defense is reason enough to say that we could get more information about the game by looking at a different lynch candidate.

[Rune]

I'm not tunnelling on you nearly so much as you seem to think, though my posts certainly would indicate that. - it's simply the case I am most pushing forward as you are the greatest common denominator in a lot of my reads. I am considering a number of other possibilities, and I don't actually assume that you are necessarily the centre of the scum team or that you are either a great or poor player (I do think you are intentionally selling yourself short though). I just think your lynch would very likely help the town a lot, because you have strong (scummy) associations with a lot of players. I believe you'd flip scum but even if you flipped town I think that would help clear the air.

My current opinion on Rev is that he is almost certainly town. If he is scum, then I am mad at all the useless townies who acted scummy or who lurked enough to let him get by. He would have to have a huge obvious slip for me to believe that he is not town at this point, there are simply too many other likely scum.

The argument against PB is shit given RC's defence of him. That kind of defence should never be made from a townie to scum, which is why I really despise all of the strong unexplainable townreads in this game, particularly on Palkia. If anyone was going to be lynched for PB's posts, it should have been RC.

As for Elyse, I don't disagree. I think she feels like she doesn't need to do much this game because it seems obvious who some of the scum are. I can't fault her for that when I agree.

[Rune]

Your posts seem extremely town to me. Additionally, The more likely I think certain people are to be scum, the more likely it is, from my perspective, that the remaining people are town. Enough people are playing in a way that makese suspicious of them while st this point you aren't.

[Rune]

I really don't like your play, we've been over this. Reconciling that to the current context of the game, I do think you're obvtown and this is really all I've got to say on this topic.

[Rune]

NAA has you as scum
...

[Rune]

So you don't have other scum reads than the two he pointed out?

[Rune]

BBT you are bad and you should feel bad. I'll answer you after work.

[Rune]

577 -

1. Your read on Axe here makes no sense, Rune. It's very wishy-washy. Explain your town read on Axe again for me please?

584 -

2. Where is Hostile in this lynch list? You seem much more focused on Palkia, Oversoul and Havoc. Why not HI?

I mean, your case against Oversoul is 'he's too good as scum so I want to lynch him now before he just becomes so town I have no chance.' You're not considering that Oversoul just might be town. This is scummy.

593 -

3. Rune is lining lynches up here, this feels scummy as fuck. I've seen enough now.

VOTE: Rune

594 -

4. I like this post from Axe. I'm far from impressed by Elyse's contributions/reads so far this game and I could absolutely see this team.

I'm not big on associatives though and Rune is independently scummy, so, help me lynch him?

597 -

5. I don't think the wagon was town driven (given the early votes were parked votes for a while. There will be scum on the wagon, and it's not Oversoul, Palkia or myself.

1. It makes sense to me. Regardless, most of my townreads right now boil down to them not being on my list of scumreads. I would expect a different playstyle from Axe as scum in this kind of game.

2. HI looks like a possible scapegoat. Particularly at the beginning of D2, I was much more focused on Palkia and Oversoul, which was consistent with my end of D1 focus.

I am in fact considering that Oversoul might be town, and I have explained that despite my thought that he is scum, how my reads would change if he flipped town. How is that not considering the possibility of town Oversoul?

3. Your comment has nothing to do with the post you quoted. The post you quoted also contradicts your previous comment from point 2.

4. How can you like that post from Axe? It is incorrect that I wanted to lynch him D2. Factually incorrect. Blatant lie. I actually townread him in response to Elyse. But you like it. Are you serious?

5. If the wagon was not town drive, then Havoc is almost certainly scum and there is scum on the wagon. I am not Havoc and I wasn't on the wagon. Why aren't you voting Havoc? Why aren't you identifying who on the wagon you think is scum (although it's pretty obvious you're referring to HI).

Your vote on me is obviously not in the interest of town. Your post is also really bad. At this point, Havoc is almost certainly the correct lynch, and I haven't seen any reason why that shouldn't be the case.

[Rune]

@BBT

I also really dislike how you are making an argument based on posts from 200 posts ago, when you could have made those arguments then. All 5 of your quotes posts are within 20 posts of each other, and it looks like you're just backtracking to justify a position you want to have now.

P. edit

1. No, I don't really care.
2. Because multiple people came out and accused HI of being scum, some of whom I thought were scummy.
3. No... I said if Oversoul is town, Palkia is town. That means I wouldn't lynch Palkia. My post is doing exactly the opposite of what you're saying. Fucking read.
4. His points include a factually incorrect statement. I'm really glad that's the type of post you like, it's going to get you really far.
5. Havoc had a counterwagon when he was about to be lynched. A counterwagon you agree is not town driven. How are you even asking me this?

[Rune]

The difference is that now, as I clearly stated, it looks like you're backtracking to justify a position you want to have, but didn't have before even though you clearly had time to respond to those same posts before (and did, but just didn't make those points.

1. I don't care if you understand, you're not helping town.
2. Palkia Quick-Hammered. Havoc has posted real scummy and there was a counter-wagon on him. That's the difference.
4. The post was 3 sentences. 1 was bullshit. It's not like I'm accusing him of bad grammar and saying the post is garbage. The post is garbage because 1/3 of it is a lie. So I don't actually know what you're talking about and you're being really obtuse.
5. Havoc was very close to being lynched. He had 5 votes and at least 2 people ready to vote/hammer, who were just waiting for his defense / claim. Are you even paying attention? Also, if you admit (which you already have), that PB wagon was scum driven, then how is Havoc town? It would have been far more practical and less suspicious to just lynch town Havoc than go through a really suspicious hammer of PB.

Re: RC. WIFOM.

[Rune]

@Jake

While I sympathise with the Palkia vote, I don't think it's going anywhere. Please reconsider Havoc. Or, at least, provide a case why a Havoc vote is not a good vote.

[Rune]

That's fair. Palkia should not get a free ride.

[Rune]

I really don't think we're going to be getting a lot done by waiting for replacements for 3 more people. I don't think a Havoc replacement coming in is going to change much.

I understand if anyone wants to keep D2 going, and if more people were active, I'd agree. I think I've developed my reads today just about as far as they're going to go. I'm ready for a Havoc lynch now.

So... Oversoul? Jake? Rev? HI? [Or, 2 votes + random Palkia hammer]

[Rune]

VOTE: Rune

why are you voting rune? why not wait until we at least get some replacements?

This game is clearly not worth waiting for.

Axe is just trolling, not a big deal.

[Rune]

VOTE: Havoc

As to not play against my win condition, I will side with Rune, despite how hilarious I would find it if he died.

The amount of time I would save in my life if I was lynched from this game.....

Let's just lynch Havoc and get to D3. I have no confidence in lurkers showing up and have no interest in dealing with yet more replacements who won't read the game or who will just lurk and need to be replaced [again]. If anyone feels like contributing something new to the game (ie, Overgoat if you want to claim scum) then I'll listen, but really, my attention span for this is wearing thin.

I'm done moving my vote around today (unless Overlamb claims scum or some similarly odd event happens as indicated above).

I'm starting to run out of dumb ways of misremembering OverEwe's name / avatar so that is also an indicator that this day is over.

[Rune]

Havoc at L-2

Let's just get this over with please.

[Rune]

Do you have a better solution to propose than yet another single sentence post lacking substance?

[Rune]

VOTE: Havoc

Saving Nikanor from finding a replacement for 3 people, I guess. Marginal utility in that.
I think we are all letting HI get away with way too much coasting. Same for Jake who is happy to literally do nothing.

Yes, but neither have any reason to crack under pressure at this point. I wouldn't agree to lynch either of them right now and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

[Rune]

This is such a joke. 100 posts separate Jake's statement and his vote for oversoul. I disagree with his refusal to vote havoc but his posts have a pretty clear town motivation.

[Rune]

@BBT

I don't like that you just post your analysis post by post, I'm just going to respond in general and if you feel I missed something please just specifically address it to me in one post.

Rev has been playing poorly the whole game and has mixed up reads more than once. I did notice his use of random names and assumed they were nicknames or that he was just confused as he had been earlier, but I'll take your word for it that they represent other games he is playing. However, Rev has been consistently bad and has responded consistently enough to different scenarios throughout this game that I am quite confident he is town. I also think his response to my townread of him is pretty town.

I really dislike that you are scumreading people for not actively scumhunting when their primary scumreads are clearly people who are inactive. Jake has consistently attempted to question Palkia D2 and it isn't his fault that this game is full of lurkers. I don't fault either Jake or Elyse for not being more active, since their scumreads haven't provided additional content which would require additional activity.

Basically all of Jake's last few posts make really good comments about your recent play, and I agree with him.

I was leaning town on HI at that point because I thought it extremely suspicious that multiple people out of the gate (including people I thought were scummy) suggested we vote HI. I've explained this already.

Overall your arguments are really weak and while you have a town playstyle I'm not convinced you are town.

Let's talk about the D1 lynch.

Havoc was almost lynched (this is true despite your earlier denial).
PB, who had been scumread a lot throughout D1, was lynched immediately after multiple declared intent to hammer Havoc.

Do you agree Havoc's wagon was town driven?
Do you agree PB's wagon was scum driven?

What is the town motivation for counterwagoning from Havoc to PB without explaining that they thought Havoc was town and PB scum? There is an obvious scum motivation for moving the wagon to PB. I don't think there is a town motivation for the tail end of the PB wagon. This makes me very convinced that Havoc is scum.

Why should I let my oversoul scumread go? Nothing has been posted that makes me confident he is town.

Just because no one is defending Havoc doesn't mean he is town. It could equally mean scum acknowledge a lost cause and are willing to bus at this point. Your argument is once again not very sound.

[Rune]

@Jeanne

Hello.

Do you plan to read the game up to this point? Why shouldn't you be lynched immediately?

[Rune]

@BBT

I have a completely different reaction to Palkia's entrance. I think yours is ridiculous and if that has been the basis for your strong townread, I am sad.

I agree that the VC was disgusting. Everyone should be voting for Havoc/Jeanne.

[Rune]

Can we please quicklynch Jeanne now that the havoc slot is filled? That's what we were waiting for right?

At least bring to L-1 so we can get real pressure.

[Rune]

Jeanne, please claim like Innocent Child or some shit so we can get to actually lynching scum.

Thanks.

This is such a scummy post lol.

[Rune]

Lynch me then.

No. You're not a good lynch candidate for today. Those would be Havoc or Oversoul.

[Rune]

VT Innocent Child?

"Please fake claim so we can move on to someone who I am pretending to think is scummy"

Answer my questions about the D1 lynch.

[Rune]

Both bad lynch candidates. Well done.

Yeah, please fake claim Jeanne. You meant Innocent Child, right? Or mod confirmed two-shot-vig who can shoot on the same day and you're going to shoot Rev and Elyse...right?

Nah, I'll pass.

Do you think you could try to be a little bit pro-town?

[Rune]

No, just VT.

This game can't get any shittier. Let's just lynch please.

Jake, please do a re-read and say why Havoc/Jeanne isn't a solid shot at lynching scum.

@BBT

Vote Havoc/Jeanne and just stop posting please.

[Rune]

Jeanne, look in scum PT.

I'm telling you to fake-claim.

We have a confession. He is obviously scum, trying to get me to FC so he can pin it on me.

That's how you're going to open this game? It's obviously not what he's doing.

Again, do you plan on reading the game?

[Rune]

Your vote changed the momentum heavily and if you weren't ready for PB to be lynched, then you should have never been there in the first place.

That is not what I said.
I wanted PB to be pushed closer to lynch. I did not want a hammer without a claim or to end the day that quickly.

Fair point Elyse. I only really looked at the wagon after it was too late

Your posts after the lynch don't indicate this at all. Seems contrived.

[Rune]

Your posts now seem contrived to express an attitude which doesn't seem consistent with your actual posts at the time of the lynch.

[Rune]

I can't believe I'm saying this but I think I agree with bbt about rev, the arrogance IMO looks fake. The havoc replacement still hasn't done anything and that's troubling

Do you agree though that it's been consistent for the duration of the game? If not, can you point out some inconsistencies and that would probably make me take a closer look at Rev. I haven't been sensing insincerity on his part.

You obviously think I should be lynched, so why bother?

Seiousky what the hell.kind of attitude is.this? Why replace in if you are just going to do jack shit.

Needs. To. Be. Lynched.

[Rune]

First post of d2. Hammer. Hahaha. I'm not happy palkia was the hammer again but this lynch needed to happen. *eagerly awaits scum flip*

[Rune]

@oversoul and BBT. Thoughts on hammer?

[Rune]

I have something to say but I don't want to say it now so I'll say it tomorrow.

What's the point of this post? Why are you so confident you won't be Nk?

Say it now.

[Rune]

Can we thank scum for that nk? Town is way better off now and they didn't even hit a PR hahaha

[Rune]

VOTE: oversoul

Pretty confident about this still.
I don't think palkia is worth lynching right now. Will consider it as day goes on.

[Rune]

I'm not scum Rune.

Wow what a compelling argument!
UNVOTE:

[Rune]

VOTE: oversoul

[Rune]

Please for the love of God unvote one of you
I am the Bodyguard

UNVOTE:
I don't want a lynch before I'm done work though lol.

[Rune]

@Jake

Last palkia hammer you didn't let go of palkia for most of the day. Why so quick on oversoul now? I do agree with the vote though lol

@Hi I actually think your vote is a bit scummy.

[Rune]

Bodyguard is a weak claim btw. And axe is probably town.

@oversoul anyone can plant a fake claim.

@Hi you seem to be coasting and subtly pandering to easy wagons at opportune moments. I'm going to post a lot more and in detail after work, I wasn't expecting such a crazy day 3 start.

Since the wagon has died down and we aren't going to get a Surprise lynch from palkia....
VOTE: oversoul

[Rune]

I want to hear from Saint.

Other than that, oversoul or hostile are my top lynch picks for today. With BBT out of the picture as vt, I'm pretty happy with my reads.

Pedit Hi you could easily be town, I'm not too convinced either way. I had dialga pegged as probable town so that helps your case. I also like your answer there. I just doubt you and oversoul are the same alignment. As for axe, I could be letting meta cloud my judgement but he is still not my top concern.

[Rune]

I'm not kidding. I've thought arceus was scum since d1 so don't give me any bs about you just being scumread based on a night action only. Your claim is weak and I would have no problem lynching you. But it warrants a better wagon than the shenanigans we just experienced.

The fact that you would post something like that just makes me laugh. I had thought you were a better player.

What a joke wifom argument. How many days of the night did it take you to come up with that?

[Rune]

Jake is town.

[Rune]

YOU BARELY DID ANYTHING TO GET PALKIA LYNCHED WHAT THE HELL IS THAT JAKE?

Rune, I'm not the one who got a PR to claim, so yes. If you and fucking Elyse are going to blame ME for the PB lynch I am blaming YOU for my lynch.

And I would own up to it... Unlike you. Stop whining. I'm not nearly so far in a tunnel as you think, how about giving me a reason to look somewhere else if you think I'm wrong. You haven't made any convincing arguments whatsoever.

[Rune]

Gs guilty?

I am willing to consider scum Elyse. It is plausible. I won't put it at L1 now though.

I am certain there is 1 scum on the Elyse wagon.

[Rune]

Very likely by your opinion means absolutely nothing to me. My vote would put Elyse at L1. You have made no case, but presume to judge and condescend while being simultaneously dumb. I'm 100% comfortable with lynching you. I don't know how you can be comfortable on a wagon with palkia and Hi.

Pedit. Definitely not hammering.

[Rune]

Jake why the vote and unvote?

This is so funny. Oversoul you are playing so poorly right now, either alignment.

[Rune]

I refuse to accept that oversoul, palki, and hostile are all town after the havoc counterwagon and pb lynch. One of them needs to go.

With one data point, a cop claim isn't helpful.

[Rune]

Nvm non sane cop is non normal. forgot to delete that in edit.

[Rune]

Palkia has claimed twice and scumread Elyse without justification since d1. This is not an ok basis for a lynch without hearing from Elyse.

[Rune]

I'm not against the idea of Elyse as scum. It's a very real possibility. But palkia has not provided any reason to vote that way...
Palkia unvoted.
Palkia hypothesized that Jake knows Elyse is town.
Palkia didn't explicitly claim that he investigated Elyse and found scum.
And on and on and on. This is bad motivation for a wagon.

[Rune]

Oversoul said I think end d2 that he thought palkia was pr based on first hammer. So your argument there isn't good. I still think oversoul is scum in all likelihood.

[Rune]

gunsmith

Ah ok. So macho gunsmith. Wiki says macho is usually cop and I didn't know what gunsmith was so your gun comment went over my head.

So basically now it's an even weaker scum read than I thought.