Mini 1687: Refraction Mafia (WINNER!)

[Thor665]

I see now where the confusion comes from, and it's awfully strange that it ended up this way because here you are acknowledging that you misunderstood my original post while simultaneously saying that I'm the one who's changed what I'm asking for.

I am not admitting that I misunderstood your previous post while claiming you moved the goalposts.
I am saying I understood your previous post and that you moved the goalposts.
Big difference.

So originally, in #2437, I was asking for examples of games where town had two investigative roles and scum didn't have some method of blocking results. You responded in #2439 by offering an example of a setup where town has two investigative roles and is up against two scum factions []bWhere scum lack the ability to block investigative roles

. So now in my mind we're talking about inv roles vs. factions instead of inv roles vs. roleblocker types, and I think "well of course town could have two investigative roles if they're up against two factions, the question is whether they would have two inv roles if they're up against one faction."

I added in the bold - and note that your initial comment doesn't include any issue about singular faction - therefore holding solid for my 'moving goalposts' commentary - yeah?

Feel free to quote from your original post otherwise and I'll rescind the accusation.

From your perspective at the time, he was literally your role -- same ability, same number of shots -- plus more goodies added on top. That really didn't seem strange to you?

It did - which is why I expressed doubt.
I will agree that I didn't express the amount of doubt you claim I should have - but I fail to see what that shows as far as my alignment goes. Even if I was scum and lying, theoretically I would still "fake" the same amount of doubt I figured was appropriate - yeah? Like, how does this even make sense?

It doesn't make sense because you've apparently ignored the very foundation of what I'm doing: Testing your claim against the likelihood of various scenarios. I'm not going to go around looking at the way other people reacted to test power role claims that they haven't made.

In other words, it's not the suspicion of Pers's claim that I care about. It's the suspicion of Pers's claim based on information that you should absolutely know to be true based on your role PM.

If we can find this then it illustrates that I'm wrong about the unlikeliness of your role existing in this game given the assumption that we're only up against one scum team. Which opens up more possibilities for you being town.

The same goes for Jungle Republic - which you already dismissed. Why does the one suggest me more clear while the other suggests me more scum?
That doesn't make sense as far as I can tell.

[Thor665]

Thor, wanted to let you know that I'm quite ok lynching you.
your day4 entrance is buttSmurf ugly

Meh.

[Thor665]

If I thought for sure you were a godfather I'd be voting you - lackwit.

[Thor665]

Like, what am I even supposed to explain to that question?
I have potential fear of you being a godfather. This fear is supported by you not playing in any way I can identify as townsided. I asked you to explain a read. I have admitted it is a paranoid fear. I have stated that I didn't want to really push it unless Tool flipped town.

Now I need to explain it to you?

Explain what?
I have explained it - there is nothing more to explain.
Learn to read.

[Thor665]

You're done shit.

[Thor665]

I'm glad we had this in-depth conversation of helpful. It was a trans formative experience.

[Thor665]

Oh dear gawd.

[Thor665]

[Thor665]

[Thor665]

And I just guessed on Lapsa?

[Thor665]

And wasn't worried about a tracker or a Cop?

[Thor665]

So I'm not sure.

[Thor665]

Tool - "must somehow accept logic that paints Thor as scum and also avoid that it would be illogical if I was town, will defer long enough to still push Thor and leave open Tex's theory while ignoring multiple logic holes the size of fething Kansas."

[Thor665]

Tool's point about the not killing the other scum is also interesting, hadn't thought of that.

Really he's being silly - there's no logical reason for me to try to lynch scum today over kill them at night.
He's just being scummy and self-conscious and ignoring the other logic issues.

[Thor665]

Ok, do you think the RB idea in general has merit?

The only way it would appear to make sense is for me to be scum.
So - no.

[Thor665]

I've already said that I changed my question -- or "moved the goalposts," as you put it. I also said that you were the one who got me to move them, because you misunderstood what I was saying. Then later you understood, and now you're saying I moved the goalposts.

This is a lot of babble basically admitting that you moved the goalposts after claiming that you didn't.
My vote is staying.

You could, yes. That is a very difficult territory to get into though. Pretty much impossible to do anything definitive without baseless and/or circular reasoning involved.

Which is another way for me to say: Yes, you could have faked it. Or maybe not. Maybe it was a mistake you made as scum. Maybe it wasn't.

So I will take that into account.

Oh please - stop pretend extroverting work - I've already shown that your singular goal is to call me scum at the moment.

The same does not go for Jungle Republic, because Jungle Republic is a setup where there are two scum factions. Of course it's possible that there could be two town investigative roles in a game where town is up against two anti-town factions.

Like take this, with this;

If it's 9:2:2, that suggests scum Thor to me because only one of {Lapsa, Thor, Shin, Bella} gets to be town in that scenario and Thor being ultraviolet (especially with a RB) explains a lot.

You admit that two teams is a thing, and you also admit that two teams can make sense with multiple investigatives.
However - if there are two teams then I'm scum because...well...because there are a set of players who need to have scum amongst them and I'm picked in 9:2:2 for reasons you never state while babbling enough to make it look like you're thinking.

Better pray town is skimming this debate, Tool.

[Thor665]

without me, ball2 is stuck with no-lynch

No - that is only true if the scum team is exactly who you think it is.
You're using a conclusion to define a proof. It's a fallacy.

[Thor665]

My bad - I thought you were analyzing game states and appropriate lynches based off your theory of the scum team. If it was just noise to be ignored then no worries.

[Thor665]

Pointing out that I had issues with your playstyle on Day 4 when I announced that I did on Day 1?
Brilliant prediction of my thoughts.

[Thor665]

I have indicated that I am not fond of his playstyle.
My current read on him is 'a disagreeable playstyle that i hard to read and offers nothing to assess.'

Rekt?

[Thor665]

Okay.

[Thor665]

I've only ever seen a mod once refer to a dual scum team as an SK and never seen it called a Mafia. Single scum teams are SKs, not mafia.

[Thor665]

@Lapsa: why do you think shinobi is partners with BBT?

@Thor: thoughts on lynching Bella/her being at L-1?

Bella's reactions and paranoia speak town to me. It's not much more than a gut read, but it's there and it's solid, and that's the reasoning.

what

This reaction is fake as hell.
Vote still stands - and sooner or later people will notice that I'm right.
Maybe.

[Thor665]

Missed that one an ISO skim.

Yeah, I only said it about 3 or so times.

The fact that you chose to comment on this instead of giving any sort of thoughts as to Lapsa's post is curious to me.

I found what you did scummy - I found what he did boring.

And what are your thoughts on Lapsa's posts Thor?

It's either true - in which case he'll also claim single scum of his faction (which may or may not be true) - in which case it affects nothing.
Or it's a gambit - in which case it's boring.
My personal prediction is gambit, because there is literally no reason beyond utter derp to claim what he did as scum, regardless of which team he's on - so I really don't even care that he claimed.

Now - walk me through your post - what about his claim confused you and needed more explanation?

[Thor665]

I mean, it seemed *really* straightforward as a claim to me.
What else needed explaining to the point you needed to post 'what?' in reply to it?

[Thor665]

Fine with QT release.

you were awesome, toolenduso we were cheering you on from the dead thread. you had so much of it figured out. we couldn’t figure out why thor wasn’t hammering bella either it was really weird.

Because we had a 50/50 for last scum, and even if it was better odds then that there is still no reason to overplay a hand on a lynch that is going through without me.

I think the thing that really helped you guys was convincing people that Bella was Thor's partner, subtly.

I was being subtle on that?

I self hammered to make a point about how much Thor needed to be lynched.

You didn't lynch Thor.

Try again?

Theoretically this actually just shows you that the concept of self-hammering to get people to listen to you doesn't work.
I'd keep that in mind in the future.

BBut having two town self-hammer did not help.

Hey, I thought it helped a lot!
Oh...wait...

[Thor665]

Theoretically this actually just shows you that the concept of self-hammering to get people to listen to you doesn't work.
I'd keep that in mind in the future.

First time it's failed actually.

I've never seen it work - could you do any linkage? I'd love to see that.

Protip: I replace out if I start cheering for the opposing team.

Good plan, actually. That might save a lot of stress on this site if more people did it.

@Dead QT - I will note with mild pride all the comments about how obvious and terrible I was. I actually see that a lot from Dead QTs and I am pretty sure it speaks nicely of my scum play, because part of being scum *is* trying to advance your team and that usually does require being scummy to do so.

I will agree about the claim thing though - *wooosh!* I lasted forever and thirty days on that one. The QT is basically me, every night, expecting to be dead that phase or during the day, and then being amazed that it hadn't happened

[Thor665]

I know - also, as I think Aero noted, scum kind of kill the people who suspect them. It makes life *so* much easier.

[Thor665]

I think that one of my most shameful ownages as scum was from someone doing NKA.
Basically they were like "everyone who was dead thought Thor was scum" and the bloody bastard had the absolute sass to have people believe him! The nerve.

[Thor665]

I'd actually be interested in a non "you are a mean smelly toilet and you suck" discussion about this on MD now it's done, actually.

I think I fit into a self hammer won't give reads more credence camp, and am generally anti self hammering, but it seems a decent point to have a MD discussion as long as people aren't going to genuinely get upset about it?

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=59109

[Thor665]

I'm trying to avoid Larges right now as I have a 2-3 week v/la coming up in August. Maybe afterwards I'll replace in