Mini 1699 - #swag wars: THE empire strikes back (swaggedout)

[Cheetory6]

VOTE: ffery
skem

[Cheetory6]

you said you weren't going to bus, notsci. I'm disappoint.

We've got a scumclaim here folks. Easy money.

[Cheetory6]

VOTE: RedCoyote

[Cheetory6]

cheetory you're not flashing out blinding beams of towniness. I miss them. :/

I like being mysterious lately.
Also, being on a trip to Texas for a gaming convention and starting a new job is strangely taking up my time.

this RedCoyote push just feels like low hanging fruit

You should try to back this up with specifics.

~quote tags fixed.

[Cheetory6]

Fucking quotes.

[Cheetory6]

Wagons are fun.
Eat the low hanging fruit guys.

[Cheetory6]

I'm secretly wishing he would replace out except it's not really a secret now. I think I'll just policy vote him for now because I am bitter.

If you felt like there was a lack of content early on in the game worth discussing, why would you want to push the game in this direction?

Aneninen, are policy votes always necessarily bad reasoning?

This feels like a weird kind of defensive justification for policy voting.

ns, do you like my new avatar? lalaladucks made it for me. It's the two of us playing together. On a scale of 1 - 10, how jelly are you?

"Guys the lack of content in this game is bad, I'm just gonna make silly posts at the person I'm voting."

How did this game get so boring so fast? Maybe it's just me, but I saw nothing in those pages that I want to talk about.

Feign interest and scumhunting. As scum, for me, it's easy to focus on the game because I have a clearly defined goal (e.g. fool players X, Y and Z into thinking you are town). As town, you have no such goal. You can't simply act town... you have to be town, help the town and find scum on your own. I have no idea what alignments of the other players are, so I have no direction with which to follow.

I'm getting a pretty solid feeling that the manner in which RC is approaching this game is very intentional.
I get the impression that RC is trying to establish this self-aware aura of "I don't care what you think of me" [though in certain posts it seems like he lapses]. Overall the tone of his posting just feels inconsistent in a manner that feels forced and not real.
So everyone.
Eat.
Your.
Lowhangin'.
Fruits.
Or talk at me about why I'm wrong.

[Cheetory6]

^ok.

[Cheetory6]

My two dumb self-centered thoughts right now are that it seems like people are trying to make a PoE pool on D1 with eight pages which seems really strange to me and that it seems kind of balls that I'm being called scum for not being obvtown.
Isn't there some law about innocent until proven guilty!!?
:c

Anyways, Tammy making a PoE pool seems out of character from what I've seen from her town game. She's usually very innerly focused and for her to be drawing up so many reads without having interacted with people feels like it might be coming from a disingenuous place. I've been having a shitty streak for attributing different feeling play to scumplay and it being wrong so I feel like I kind of just need to suck it up and take an hour out of my trip to read her and a few others a bit more focusedly.

Anen saying that him being wagoned == scum is protecting itself feels overdramatic to me.
Gonna try to ISOdive him too.

Pie defending me makes me happy.
I'm going to try my best to be wary of her despite this

Reading over other stuff now.

[Cheetory6]

Actually yeah, I'm thinking about things more and now I'm just kind of thinking Tammy and ffery are either forgetting how slow my start was in Signs and Void or they're trying to abuse my reputation to throw shade at me before I can get invested.

*cracks knuckles*
If you're scum I'm going to make either of you regret that decisions >:D

[Cheetory6]

My vote on CDB was about as well informed as my vote on you was this game.
I didn't like the feel of your first few posts, there was a wagon and so I voted you.
In that game I didn't like the feel of the first few posts of CDB, so I voted him.

Literally the only difference between my start there and here is that I'm on VLA and lately I'm recognizing that my earlygame reads are usually kind of shit, so I'm trying to get real invested before I start actually throwing my weight around.

If you're reaching out to me, you should be asking me things, instead of just saying you're wary of me.

[Cheetory6]

Really?
Heh.
Well, it's entirely possible I'm misremembering the slight order of events that happened, but I definitely recall feeling like your first few posts gave across a vibe of forced enthusiasm.
If I don't talk about reasoning it's generally because I'm waffling too hard on little details and am just going based on feelings.

[Cheetory6]

Cheetory - you were a very early pretty decent town read for me in signs and void.

For very very specific reasons.

Well, your comment about me scumclaiming gave me the impression you were just playing along with notsci's and my page 1 goof around.

I was. Doesn't mean I didn't find you a little sketchy.

Did me tossing a page 1 tentative townread into the game bother you? I don't remember you commenting on that at all.

I think the biggest thing that was bugging me was the lack of RVS vote out the gate. Not sure I ever really thought much of the townread other than that it seemed a little premature?

And that's actually one of the reasons why I state early reads when I get them. In players who haven't played with me before the reaction to being read, and the reaction to seeing someone being read that early are useful data.

And if I'd had more time I think you would have seen more pushing from me on you during the earlygame.
Whacannisay.

When I'm town, the early game is a lot of fun and my enjoyment and enthusiasm usually do show. It's not a 100% scum marker for that kind of stuff to be absent, but it's probably cause for concern.

See, the issue isn't that you were having fun, it was that it seemed like you were trying to seem like you were enjoying yourself moreso than you were, which is an issue of genuineness with your tone. I actually kind of dislike the way you framed this.
Do you think people should be townreading you based on your opening this game?

[Cheetory6]

I hate it when people talk past me.
You can get added to my list of ISOdives.

[Cheetory6]

"ffery what do you think of this thing that cheeto did"
"wicked I'm right here why aren't you talking at me about it"
"ffery pls answer"
"wicked. I'm. right. here."
"ffery pls"
">:C"
":o"
"sdkjgdkjhgfkjhgkfhdgkjdfg"

[Cheetory6]

I still don't like people talking about me without having talked with me first. >:c

[Cheetory6]

i) I realize. You're not very good at picking up when people are being entirely serious are you?

i) Could ask me literally about anything.
God, I'm gonna have to make so much noise before people actually start engaging me this game.

[Cheetory6]

What are your thoughts on Nacho? Ever played with him?

My thoughts on nacho are that he's apparently a strong player and I've interacted with him via proxy.
I'm expecting more from him. [which probably sucks to hear because I know how annoying it is to hear that a lot lately >.> but I am still hoping for something stronger to read him off of]
I'm intending on parsing through his thoughts on RC today.

[Cheetory6]

Gizizzzizigigizzig?

What was this supposed to mean wrt the specific piepost?

Wickedest’s opening feels awkward and his followup when asked about it is also awkward. His followup with notscience is also awkward. Him asking Vinkah if they’re new feels like it’s coming from a productive place. Could be fake productivity though so EHHHH.

Waiting until D2 to try and read notscience confidently atm.

Leaning town on Vinkah. I like that Vinkah isn’t afraid to not have a main scumread to push in #79. Heh. Not as big of a fan of the callout on the RC push, but I do like the followup explanation for why they think RC isn’t leaning scum for them. And then I go back to feeling like a PoEpool to be hunting for scum feels weird this early. Ehhhhh, especially when it seems like it’s borderline an excuse to jump on Anen without dissecting his play.

I like pie’s reasoning for the RC vote.

I do think he's starting to get on edge about some playstyles/behaviors that he thinks are detrimental or disrespectful to the game lately and maybe that's where the policy lynch idea has come from? In bees he gave a few pretty decent rants about some frustrations.

This reasoning for RC’s policy vote makes me feel a little better about that aspect of his play.

The progression flicked from RC getting frustrated from notscience's early play

You think that RC was frustrated by just the one post by notscience he referenced?

That's not how RC would fake frustration as scum.

Do you think he would be faking being frustrated about playing with notscience if there was drama already there? What do you think would be a more typical reaction for scumRC in this situation?

@implosion

, you’re sheeping Nacho’s read on RC but you think Nacho’s scum?

Wicked looks town for 74.

Talk at me about this please. If you may.

Reads as they stand atm:
Layla>Vinkah>Nacho,ffery>thenullpile>wicked,gnome>RC
I keep wanting to put tammy in my scumleans pile, but I do want to read her in isolation sometime soon.
I ended on page 9ish for my recatchup. Will finish it and look over specific people once I'm done.

[Cheetory6]

ffery ur so skem for your lack of vote.
tammy ur so skem for your rvs vote.
#gamesolved.

I'm gonna go get drunk now.

[Cheetory6]

I don't think that cheetorys game was slow in signs and voids so I'm not sure what he's referncing. I did town read him early, and while it was for a specific reason, I think the inquisitiveness and honest decision on reads is something that translates.

I remember Shadow saying that I asked questions that felt like I should have the answers to. I also remember telling Tier that I was sorry for having such a shitty start. I also have no idea what you mean by inquisitiveness and honest decision on reads bit here.

It feels weird that he's claiming that worrying about him is abusing his reputation before he can get invested. What is this reputation that were supposed to be abusing?

Let’s talk at people about this instead of asking me about it weeeeeeee.
My reputation is that I’m apparently a good town player and it’s kind of annoying that people compare the entirety of my performance in S&V to the start of other games when I have less time, less dedication and more games going on simultaneously that I’m also trying to balance.

I'm also feeling a bit squicky about the whole, how dare people make Poe lists before page ten, and tammy doesn't usually do that. Because qua? It's like he and anen decided to take a page from the Same playbook and go how dare you scum read me, oh Im lynched, whatever shall I do.

Yeah because that’s totally the same thing. I’m having a hard time believing that Anen’s self-destruction and me saying that you having a lynchpool earlygame is off is comparable in your head.

I don't know. Feels weird. He's also up in arms that people suspect him without interacting with them but he's doing th same thing. I mean sure hypocrisy is not a scum tell but it feels off. His Nacho read also feels wrong in the way he's discussed it.

Yeah well, I don't like that you're not probing me on the details of this stuff, and are instead just kind of throwing it out there. So I guess we’re even

When you scumread Empire/Zar/Espe in S&V it felt like, to me, that you were asking them questions to try and put them down if they were scum, where here you're just kind of throwing stuff out there and saying it feels off without having done anything about it.

Like. To me, it seems a lot like you're trying to set up a scumread on me so you have options, rather than actually trying to figure me out and all of this "these things make me feel weird but Iunno" feels like a weird amount of uncertainty to be throwing around while you're not even really trying to engage me on things. Are you just kind of hoping I'll sort myself out? Because this passive scumhunting feels off, especially since I have already poked at you and in response you've just kind of flopped semi-angrily at me.

I also kind of feel like your angry responses to people feel too strong. Where your angry response to Zar felt like it made sense in the context, you being angry at Layla felt a lot like an unreasonably angry reaction to her asking you why you hadn’t used your vote. Especially since the way she was asking you about it felt entirely reasonable to me.

Actually, this last point is irking me. People should talk to me about it.
VOTE: Tammy

[Cheetory6]

I mean sure, a little, but I also thought the "I'm an easy mislynch target because I don't have any real allies in this game" was a pretty genuine sentiment and really don't understand why he's getting wagoned over, say, Gnomeo.

I mean, part of what's bugging me at this point is that I can get the angle that you're coming at wrt the RC read right now, and I can get why you're saying Anen is being overdramatic and maybe that feels genuine, but there's really likely to be three scum in this game and it can't be just Gnomeo playing a bad scumgame and that's it.

Because I'm getting genuine vibes from a lot of places and I'm constantly trying to resist the urge to townread most of them because I know the caliber of scumplay in this game is probably going to be higher than average.
I don't know if that makes sense and isn't just me being mumbly about foggy details, but it's like, I just get this really strong feeling that someone is playing well and I'm scared of the fact that I want to sheep you on this without having even looked at Gnomeo in detail yet q.q

[Cheetory6]

@Gnomeo

, do you intend on being stubborn every time someone tries to reach out/pull apart your scumread on Tammy by just asking them why they're doing it?
Why is Tammy buddying Nacho and not scum trying to emulate a very distinctive manner in which she tends to open her towngames? What does she have to gain by being so overt if that's her goal in the former situation?

[Cheetory6]

When's the most recent time you've played with scumTammy?

[Cheetory6]

Was asking ffery, sorry, was too lazy to edit in the p-edit.

[Cheetory6]

About to be airporting and flying for the rest of the day, but I really quickly wanted to say:
i) I'm getting a lot shit about not living up to expectations of my towngame lately which has been frustrating. I'm trying hard to not be a dick about it, but every time someone says "Cheet isn't as obvtown as he has been in the past" it makes me tear at my hair a little bit when it's so early on in the game.
ii) I have openly admitted that the point about PoE pool was something that felt off but that it was a weak point, I don't understand how you're pretending like I'm being confident there. I voted for Tammy because I wanted to draw attention to what felt like unreasonably strong anger in response to questioning something reasonable. Maybe I missed some kind of context there, but I did want to talk about it and I think it's pretty shitty that you're trying to frame it as me trying to get Tammy lynched and just throw shade at her when I literally asked for people to talk with me about that.

Will do a more detailed and involved response when I get back.

[Cheetory6]

To be perfectly honest, I'm feeling a little discouraged atm and I'm neglecting a bunch of shit in general atm.
I do intend to pull my shit together and get my head in this game, but I have to be an asshole and wait until I have the time to take this seriously or I'm not going to be doing anything useful when I'm posting here.
I'd understand if I look a little tasty for a lynch right now, but I promise that if you give me enough time, I'll make it super clear that I got a townPM this game q.q

[Cheetory6]

I don't remember any of that, and perhaps it was after I replaced out? I don't know why people think I should have some recollection of things that have nothing to do with me.

So it's okay for you to be inaccurate with meta, but much less leniency the other way around?

You also originally thought it was odd that I focused a lot on me, but then you reread my iso and realized that in the context of the conversations happening in real time that it made sense. I thought that looked town of you because you could have easily thrown suspicion on me for faking not knowing the set up. Also rereading and thinking the things looked normal in the context of the conversation read inquisitive and your reads came out of that looking like you were honestly trying to figure out the game.

[All of this came past earlygame BUT I MEAN I'M LITERALLY BEING PRESERVATIONIST BY ARGUING THIS SO WHATEVS].

I'm going to try to be really patient because I'm really getting the impression that people are overhyping how strongly I felt about these Tammy metapoints I was making and that's probably moreso my fault where any potential scum isn't trying to take advantage of me right now haha. I tend to vote wherever my gut feels strongest about someone being scum and if I'm not feeling incredibly concrete about logic, I usually tend to just call it gut and leave it at that until I have something better and I just didn't do that this time. I wanted to get things on the table so I just said what I was thinking at the time, which is that it felt like Tammy might be coming from a disingenuous place with how she'd started the game and I thought I made it clear that it was largely a feeling and I knew it wasn't based in some empirical or logical thing and I also didn't feel super duper strong about it.

So in my head, I think "Tammy not having a lynchpool is realistically not that scummy and it only kind of feels scummy to me", but I guess to others it came across as "you're trying to get Tammy lynched/you're making a case on her!" which is really really not even close to what was going on in my head q.q.
If my sole intention was to shade Tammy, I would have probably have been more dedicated to it and if my sole intention was to try to look like town producing content, I feel I would have argued with Tammy more instead of shying away from it.
I guess there's the whole argument of that I could be playing badly as either alignment, which is totally fair, so, shrugs I guess!

You both have this underlying "I'm suspected already oh no that's not right whatever will I do" feel to you.

Sure. But how does this have anything to do with what you were talking about here though?

I completely believe that you know that I'll talk about my scum reads the exact way I have here.

I'm pretty sure you asked Zar/Empire a lot more questions in S&V than you have here, so, no? I don't know this? I'm also really curious as to why you think I know this when you're at the same time giving me shit for expecting you to know things about how I play? :/

So, what's comparable to here? This is early game, you don't have a lot of content, I don't know you so I wouldn't know exactly what to prod you about, and I'm giving impressions of the people in this game and what my concerns are.

You're probably right here and there probably isn't much that is actually comparable here. However, it felt comparable at the time of writing the post in my gut at the time and I don't think that I ever tried to imply that it was anything more than a feeling.

I need to stop writing this post because I actually kind of want to scream mid-writing it. q.q

[Cheetory6]

Okay.

You're using incorrect meta on me while claiming that it's not right/fair that people are using signs and voids, which also using signs and voids to put suspicion on me. And yes, I do want you to sort yourself out. How I read people is quite often how they read/interact with the game. I poke at things as I think they're going to help me. I'm not going to force myself to ask things just to do it. I know when things are off in my town game, but there's not anything off in my game and I feel pretty strong here, so I'm really not sure what you're seeing.

That would be pretty scummy if this was what I was saying. But I never said you couldn't compare S&V to here. If I'm fucking useless at day two and haven't done shit all then I would embrace being scumread for it with open arms, but that isn't what was happening and you should know that I wasn't saying this at all.
I said it felt like people were taking the entirety of how I was playing in S&V and saying "WHY IS YOUR OPENING IN THIS GAME IN WHICH YOU'RE VLA NOT AS STRONG AS YOUR MID-ENDGAME IN S&V AH", which was probably wrong, but it's how I felt.

You did a similar thing in which you dismissed my thoughts before I could even finish.

How so?

She came back to point out that she was calling me out and then told me to respond to her other post. While quoting my post in which I said that I had other things to talk about and would later, and clarified that I got a text message mid post and left. That's annoying. I would expect anyone who was actually reading and actually trying to figure things out, when it's clarified that that "I unexpectedly have to walk out the door, this was supposed to be more insightful. It will have to wait until tomorrow." was that I literally left mid-post that the response wouldn't be a stubborn blowback of "oh I was calling you out blah blah bla". What I would expect from town would be, ah I didn't catch that, because to me if her big suspicion of me was that I didn't change my vote my response that I left mid thought would answer for that.

I'll try to reread that exchange with this angle in mind sometime soon, because I think this might make sense but I need to actually look it over and follow it from start to finish.

This feels like a weird post to make after making a post all about how you think I'm scum.

I felt weird writing it to be fair. It was the only thought I had after finishing going through Gnomeo's ISO.

I don't like the case on Tammy because it seems to be entirely built on subtle differences between signs and void play and play here. Assertions like "she has a lynch pool, she's generally focused" really bothers me because it not only is it based on a stupidly small sample size, its also not a very convincing reason for anyone to think someone is scum, especially when the "focused" reads Tammy possessed in SV was a grand total of 1.

Literally the only thing I would call case-ish from my posting wrt Tammy is her getting angry at Layla didn't make sense to me. Remind me in the future to just say fucking nothing if I don't feel it's the most indicative thing. -.-

I don't like the reasonable/unreasonable anger point: as RC said, emotions change. People are happy, angry, crying over syrup, and that emotion leaks into their posting. I feel like this is something Cheetory would realize as town and thus not a whole lot of excitement in the point, but Cheetory picked up on it because it's a surface difference that is pretty easily questioned.

I'm pffting at you.
Real hard.
Faking being angry is an easy way to generate content, seem genuine and get townread.

[Cheetory6]

-generate content: getting mad at Layla for not seeing that she had left her house doesn't create content, it's pretty game-irrelevant
-seem genuine: regardless of her alignment, I'm sure Tammy's telling the truth about having left her house
-get townread: I still have trouble believing that you think Tammy-scum would actually try this, if anything it creates an enemy in the person that she is getting angry with

It could generate content if Tammy and Layla had a huge back and forth over it that was noisy, you might be right that Tammy probably isn't the kind of person who would do this as scum, I do remember thinking that she might be trying to fake-emulate how she got angry at people in S&V but I'm leaning increasingly that maybe I just shouldn't say anything until I'm 100% caught up and sure that I'm 100% behind every single word I say before saying it.

This feels like more hypocrisy. Are you trying to get townread by saying this? This comment doesn't really seem to fit in with its post.

I erased about thirty snarky comments. I can only handle having a lot of my content being called stupid or wrong so many times before I start to get frustrated. I realize that my entry to this game was arrogant as fuck and I'm trying to walk myself back to a point where I'm caught up, responded to everything and have actually strong reads I like before pushing forward. It's just hard because I feel like I'm tripping over myself like a fucking idiot and everyone else is playing so well that I just feel like an asshole.

[Cheetory6]

Like, in all seriousness, I think I just need to take my catch-up slowly, because I don't want to turn this into a pity party or something and every time I go to try and take in all of the things people are saying at how I'm playing all at once it kind of gets to me.
So, by all means, make the wagon on me happen, because I'm definitely playing the worst out of everyone in this game atm and it might even be informative, but just don't be expecting great things out of me when a dogpile is happening on me haha.

[Cheetory6]

Seems like a stretch.

I've done it as scum more than I care to admit.
So.
I don't know what to tell you?

Well I think it's hard to be 100% certain about anything. But obviously you must have had some level of confidence in the point considering you voted her for it. If you had just off-handedly said "Tammy's anger here feels fake", then that probably wouldn't have bothered me too much. But you voted her for it, which expresses a level of strength that I have more difficulty understanding (even if it wasn't 100% certainty). What is your read on Tammy right now?

Which expresses that it was the strongest feeling that I had at the time? I asked people to talk at me about it for a reason.

I can't remember much of this...

Tammy, Pie and Nacho all giving the general sentiment of calling my meta feels wrt Tammy so bad that it couldn't possibly be coming from my towngame.

it hasn't felt like your frustration has been entirely with yourself (like this quote implies).

I feel a little frustrated that there's so much negative content being generated at me, but I'd be an idiot to think that it wasn't happening for reasons that are largely my fault.

you were under more pressure in the advance wars game, I thought

My reaction to that increased pressure was also a lot worse than it has been here, I feel at least.

[Cheetory6]

It looked pretty town, actually.

I mean. I hope to never get townread via being angry and aggressive like I was that game again >.>

Example?

I'm just having trouble believing/understanding why you would value it so much. What is your read on Tammy right now?

I mean, I never implied that I valued it "so much", I think I've made it pretty clear that I've been struggling with finding good scumreads.
My read on Tammy is approximately nullscum with basically no basis because I'm not feeling grounded yet.

But that's the only example, that I can remember, of you being called wrong/misguided on something.

Three different people giving you the impression that they think you're playing embarrassingly bad if you're town is enough to make me upset, especially since all three of them wrote a dedicated amount that made me feel that way >.> zzzzzzzzzzz.

BTW, Cheetory, you might have missed it, but the other day I asked: have you iso-dived through Anen's posts yet? It's fine if you're haven't, I'm just curious what you think of him too.

I can add it to my list of things I need to do in mafia q.q

[Cheetory6]

Fuckkkk I'm so scatterbrained today:

Example?

Open 585: Jungle Republic, Open 582: Fire and Ice, Passport Please Mafia.

[Cheetory6]

Who did you get angry with in that game?

pisskop.

Semantics... Replace "so much" with "as much as you have" in that sentence.

I don't think it is semantics though q.q
Like. I don't feel like I was scumreading Tammy for that as hard as you're saying I was. It felt more like a lead to me. >.>
zzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

[Cheetory6]

Mmm I can't say that I understand the point you're making here. If I'm tracking this particular train of thought properly, Ffery expressed that she thought you were having a slow start, you made the frustration posts, Tammy backed Ffery up. Your response was then to point to random events in Signs and Void of Shadoweh saying something to you and you having a slow start, Tammy points out that it's not likely that she remembers minor events that had nothing to do with her (which I'm assuming is a rebuttal to your accusations earlier). Then comes this? Where was Tammy inaccurate with meta/harsh on you for being inaccurate on meta?

I think it's more just the general sentiment of "I can have a read on you based on S&V but you can't have a read on me based on S&V". I do think it was inaccurate of her to say that my opening in S&V was strong. But her lack of vote on me possibly just means that I'm making a mountain out of a molehill.

I have a problem with your push because you pretty clearly express how you dislike people comparing you to signs and void and nothing else and then you turn around and push Tammy for a bunch of surface level crap that's comparing her to signs and void and nothing else.

I was expressing frustrating at what felt like, people comparing the ENTIRETY of my performance in S&V to my start here. As in, "why haven't you obvtowned and slammed down super duper genuine pushes and reads yet?", which didn't happen in S&V at the start of the game either.
Being frustrated at unrealistic expectations being thrown at you in a doubtful way is different than saying "I don't remember seeing you doing something like this in S&V, which feels like a switchup from how you played in S&V" and I made it really really reallllllllly clear in this post that I didn't feel that it was super indicative:

Anyways, Tammy making a PoE pool seems out of character from what I've seen from her town game. She's usually very innerly focused and for her to be drawing up so many reads without having interacted with people feels like it might be coming from a disingenuous place.

I've been having a shitty streak for attributing different feeling play to scumplay and it being wrong so I feel like I kind of just need to suck it up and take an hour out of my trip to read her and a few others a bit more focusedly.

I do honestly think you are making this weird half-push in an effort to fake content, and I don't find the "I would have argued with Tammy more" argument compelling because... you're still arguing with Tammy.

So you think, that I think, that I can get away with just defending myself all game and that my idea of faking content is to just flop around? At least respect that if I'm scum, I'm probably finding it hard to find a center of balance right now and that this isn't some maniacally stupid plan I've been scheming that would never actually work. -.-
I do intend to actually start pushing things, but I have a tendency to struggle if I don't respond to things before trying to focus on reading things.

What do you want me to call it if it's not a case?

You know what, this is fair. You can probably call it a case if you want, because I'm looking at the post that I made and it definitely comes across that way more than I thought it did.
In my head it was like "I am explaining how things seem weird to me about Tammy that I don't really have much confidence on" and then I got to the Layla part and realized that I actually thought it was scummy and wanted to draw attention to it, so I voted her.
You can call it all a case if you want, but I'm just trying to make it clear that if I hadn't gotten scumfeels from the interaction with Layla, I don't think my vote would have dropped on Tammy in that post.

[Cheetory6]

We've played a couple of times, and I never got that impression.

Wait what? We have? o.o

[Cheetory6]

Nope.

*goes to look up who Scarab is*

[Cheetory6]

A preemptive excuse for doing nothing at all. Scummy.

Isn't this a little reachy? Implosion literally said that he would be back, reading and posting after

work

, which implies he wasn't going to be away for long. Walk me through why you thought this was scummy.

@Anen

, what exactly was it about VinkahRVS that was worth keeping your vote on vs. RC or implosion who you'd given serious reasons for scumreading?
So you were saying that Vinkah was defending RC in a manner that felt like scum/scum, yes? Doesn't it look a little blatant to be that?
Why are Vinkah and implosion not scum together?

Beyond questions, there are three general things are bugging me about Anen's play.
i) This is more of a confusion thing than something scummy, but I find it strange that Anen goes on and on about how scummy people's OMGUSing is at the start of the game and by the end of his ISO he's literally blanket OMGUSing his entire wagon composition. I just don't really understand how that works. Lol.

ii) I can get his sentiment of feeling frustrated at not being engaged, and I think his frustration could be playing into how sloppy his reads are in his last few posts. However, I can see clear scum-motivation in giving sweeping reads like he did when his wagon was starting to gain momentum, in that if he does get lynched, the associations between players are less distinct, making it harder to take away who is less or more likely to be his scummate.

iii) Him being so absolute about how there's no reason to scumread him seems like pigeon poop.

Boop!
VOTE: Anen

[Cheetory6]

but, it doesn't seem that he needed an answer from me before joining my wagon.

"Guys ask me questions"
"jk don't I'm gonna find more excuses not to."

Walk me through how I'm looking for an excuse to vote you.
Because to me if we're going to go down a shitty road of "ohohohoho gotcha points!" then I'm just gonna say that it reads a lot more like you want an excuse to not respond to literally anything in the thread in any kind of meaningful way whatsoever.
-.-

[Cheetory6]

Tammy.
I literally don't care about that point anymore.
I could argue this to the moon and back and maybe we would eventually be on the same page, but I don't think it matters anymore.
You can let me know if I'm wrong.

[Cheetory6]

I think Anen needs to generate content which isn't just based around his wagon.
I also still want answers to my questions.
Because I feel like this whole "My wagon is scum and all of these people interacting with me are scum because ahhh!!!"-shtick would be easy for scum to fake.

[Cheetory6]

The bolded comment is just a blatant exaggeration.

It literally isn't?
I'm drunk so I'm not gonna hunt down how fucking wrong you are here.
but like.
THe fuck man Anen literally says someone is scummy for OMGUSing in one of his first three posts.

[Cheetory6]

Oh wow implicit things are totally not a thing!
It's not like I didn't fucking say that I was more just confused by it than anything but okay whatever say that it's the crux of my case and stuff even though it's clearly not the case. Gj.

What a defense!
It sounds in my mind like this: "okay, experienced-looking players are forming a town block and starting to go after RC. It's time to make the others keep away from that wagon. Before it reaches a lynch."

This post doesn't make sense at all. You named four players as possible scums and called two of them town next. I might believe that it was genuine if you had posted simply "Cheetory and Aneninen".
Oh wait, it still doesn't add up. There was no case against any of us at all. You haven't even interacted with us before.

These clearly arem't also expressing that same sentiment either in an indirect way!
I guess maybe I just shouldn't read between the lines when he calls it

[Cheetory6]

Fucking stop saying dumb things at me when I'm drinking.
>:c

[Cheetory6]

Like it's so garbage that Anen walks in ignores my questions and then you come in and attack a non-point as though it means anything to try and call me scummy.
zzzzz.

[Cheetory6]

I'm pretty sure he was suspicious of these people and declared it as such and then basically gave the implication that they were suspect for suspecting him because he suspected them.
But whatever.
Shit on me for a single thing that I wasn't even calling him scummy for instead of actually analyzing anything I'm actually saying.
Brb being frustrated somewhere else.

[Cheetory6]

So you're saying it wasn't anything more than pointing out an exaggeration but then you go on to say this:

Is it the comfort of attacking a popular scum read? The safety of targeting a partner? Or just scum not reading carefully? The vote itself also feels like an unnaturally abrupt development, which confuses me because I like the vote choice.

Which basically implies that you thought it was scummy, which really begs the question of why you would do that if you knew it was a non-point that I wasn't even really calling scummy and why you would call my vote abrupt if you think that my other points are much better.
I think it should be pretty obvious why I find Anen scummier than most people atm.
If you can't figure it out, I suggest looking at all of my other scumreads.

[Cheetory6]

What were the other points?
That it was abrupt?
Oh wait.
I totally definitely ignored that here:

Which basically implies that you thought it was scummy, which really begs the question of why you would do that if you knew it was a non-point that I wasn't even really calling scummy and why you would call my vote abrupt if you think that my other points are much better.
I think it should be pretty obvious why I find Anen scummier than most people atm.
If you can't figure it out, I suggest looking at all of my other scumreads.

Yes, I might be coming across like a dick right now, but the way you're talking about this supposed scumread on me for my Anen read looks fuckin' shifty to me. Like you're moving the goalposts every single time you respond to me.

[Cheetory6]

Like, you're picking at me over a semantic issue of "well Anen didn't say this that much", which is honestly probably fair, but like, I wasn't even calling him scummy for it. If you can't get the gist of what I was trying to say there, then I would argue it looks a lot more like you're trying way too hard to find something wrong with my posts vs actually trying to find something scummy. What's my scum motivation for exaggerating a non-point? That I'm trying to make him look bad?

-I said this before and I'll say it again. If I see something scummy, then it doesn't matter the size of the something that I find scummy, I'm going to call you out on it. Why shouldn't I? If we ignored all the little things, we would never catch scum in this playerlist.

You use it as leverage to call my vote abrupt and scummy though? How can you flipflop around about the size of it if you're trying to use it to paint my entire vote as scummy and abrupt because the reasoning isn't there?
Or are they meant to be two unrelated points? I don't understand at all.

[Cheetory6]

Also.
On an unrelated note, sorry for being a dick last night.
I should just not let myself go on mafiascum when I'm drunk and in a bad mood. >.> Calling you dumb was uncalled for.

[Cheetory6]

I don't know that it's a non-point.

I was saying that me calling Anen hypocritical there was a non-point on my end. I wasn't trying to do anything specific with it other than potentially gain some clarity by him potentially responding to me on it.

In your first post that you try to sort him, you vote for him. And most of the reasons that you use you could have used a long time ago. Yet you joined the bandwagon as soon as it was starting to rebuild. It was literally your first post after Nacho and notscience joined the bandwagon.

You asked me to ISOdive him and I did? Hence why I have a stance on him now where I didn't before?

I expressed what I felt was the general sentiment of his first few posts in the game, which was that the people scumreading him were scums OMGUSing him.

I hadn't read that post yet...

I'm not sure what 'moving the goalposts' means, but I'm pretty sure that I'm not doing it. I posted one paragraph explaining why I didn't like your Anen vote and I think my argument has been pretty consistent on this page...

Like, it feels like you're trying to change the scale and position of your scumread on me, and not even like as in you adjusting your read as you talk to me more, but you trying to imply that your scumread on me was something or was greater or less than it actually was at the time last night when you stated it.

Why do you think I would call you out for this if I'm scum?

Setting up more scumreads? Generating fake content? The list goes on.

[Cheetory6]

Like, you think that I, as scum, would be like "I HAVE TO EXAGGERATE ANEN'S PLAY ON PURPOSE TO MAKE HIM LOOK BAD OR ELSE MAYBE HE WON'T GET LYNCHED!?!?" or are you making the implication that I'm his buddy and I'm trying too hard to try and seem like I'm driving the wagon? In which case, why would I openly admit that it wasn't something scummy? Why wouldn't I just try to seem overconfident on how scummy he is? I haven't even really been super explicit about how hard I'm scumreading Anen at this point.
So really, I'm just left wondering why you think that's scummy, beyond just the generic point of "well scum are generally less genuine", which would be fair if there wasn't the equivalent point of "town generally care less about how they appear".


Your move.

[Cheetory6]

Is it the comfort of attacking a popular scum read? The safety of targeting a partner? Or just scum not reading carefully?

All of this hard speculation and posturing for a weak scumtell.

If you think my point is 'honestly probably fair', then why have you been criticizing it and calling me shifty this entire page?

Because it feels semantic and reachy? Like, I don't think it's entirely inaccurate to say that I wasn't firmly footed in specific examples when I said it and yes, it is certainly plausible that I could be scum pulling reasons out of my ass to falsify a scumread. But like.. I feel like I don't understand why you think I would be MORE likely to do that as scum? You know that I'm a sloppy as fuck player. Lol.

No, but you did include it in a list of things that bothered you about him. It felt like the point was added to contribute to your vote.

Fuckin'.
I'm gonna have to be literal with every single point and vote I make this game to not get scumread, aren't I? Zzzzzzz.

[Cheetory6]

I also kind of think your point of "you wanted some original reasoning for your scumread" is kind of tacky because I'm pretty sure I'm not sheeping anyone on either of the other points I made? Or do you think I needed more original fake reasoning to justify my scumread? :/

In other news, I'm feeling surprisingly energetic right now.

Feels good.

P-Edit:

For what it's worth, you said you were going to ISOdive Anen and then never did- I was reminding you of something that you already planned to do.

This point is gross. Was this your intent with reminding me again? So you could eventually hold it over my head later? :/

I just think it's interesting that virtually nothing from Anen was worth commenting on in your initial read through, but an ISOdive uncovered some points/questions that suddenly made him voteworthy (at a time when the bandwagon was rebuilding).

I pick up things a lot easier in ISOdive. If you look at any game I've played in the last 2-3 months you'll see this. You won't win any argument based on this angle. I guarantee it.

[Cheetory6]

Aw. I was enjoying our back and forth
Sorry you don't get the same enjoyment out of engaging me.
I'm not sure I understand how exactly I'm misrepping you, so if you want that to not be a throw-away statement you could go into detail.
I do genuinely feel like you attacking me for the abruptness of my vote is at the very least a hard misread of the context of my state in this game. You had originally asked me my thoughts on Anen and reminded me, so for me to ISOdive him, become convinced that certain aspects of his play were scummy, want answers to questions and then vote him seems completely natural in my head and for you to try to use that as a reason to scumread me especially feels dishonest considering you were literally the one to prod me in that direction.

[Cheetory6]

Like. If you're having a bad time here, by all means, respond to me in like a day or two.
Just think it's lame to drop the weight of your Saturday being wasted on me for trying to probe your reasoning just because you can't walk away and come back to this later.

[Cheetory6]

Noone seems to be interested in certain facts. Amongst these, the most interesting one is that there is no counter-wagon against me at all. I could also point out that nothing I post seems to change anything.
Do those things tell anyone anything?

So, you're saying that if you were scum here, you would have a scumbuddy try to create a counterwagon to you when you're at L-1 and it would look horrible for them to do so at this point?
-.-

Brb. Gonna read Anen's last catchup post again because Nacho made me feel bad for not looking over the ffery case seriously enough.

[Cheetory6]

If the previous one, Fferyllt must be scum. A year ago, in another game she replaced in and at that time I'd been wagoned. (It rarely happens to me as town on Day1 but that was another example.) She derailed my wagon becasue he thought "it was clear that the town was on its way to a mislynch.) My gamestart was very similar to that game. (Yes, I did it intentionally.) Why hasn't she realized the same thing?

Which game was this?
What do you make of the rest of ffery's play outside of just this one difference in play?
I swear to fucking God if you ignore me to squeal about how everyone is just trying to lynch you again I'm not moving my vote.

[Cheetory6]

I'd still also like focused and clear answers to these questions:

Isn't this a little reachy? Implosion literally said that he would be back, reading and posting after work, which implies he wasn't going to be away for long. Walk me through why you thought this was scummy.

@Anen, what exactly was it about VinkahRVS that was worth keeping your vote on vs. RC or implosion who you'd given serious reasons for scumreading?
So you were saying that Vinkah was defending RC in a manner that felt like scum/scum, yes? Doesn't it look a little blatant to be that?
Why are Vinkah and implosion not scum together?

[Cheetory6]

Don't you ":/" at me. I went to look back at Anen's post. I didn't read everything else again too. -.-

[Cheetory6]

Oh wow.
First three posts of that game are like.. so atrociously different to how he's been playing here, it's literally awful that he's comparing his play to this game to there as reasoning for a ffery vote.
:/

[Cheetory6]

Like, Anen, in that game, in a single 24 hour day, you asked meaningful questions, had tons of analysis and changed your vote the moment you found someone more suspicious.
In this game, you floundered around on your Vinkah vote and didn't really do anything with it while calling other people suspicious without voting them or pressuring other things about their play which weren't centered around you.
I'm not saying it's impossible that you having pressure on you might have a negative influence on your play and you might be more VLA than you were that game, but like, why are you comparing these games at all? The difference is so stark. It's like. Ridiculous.
So like, why is ffery scummy for not defending you the same way she did there when you're clearly playing super differently/not playing as strongly as you were that game?